Aus Expats - would you go home (with poll)
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Hey Tweety...
Perhaps some of AsA managers remember his now legendary parting shots about their management capabilities??
That may have something to do with the lack of response to his application.
Perhaps some of AsA managers remember his now legendary parting shots about their management capabilities??
That may have something to do with the lack of response to his application.
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DP
I acknowledge your time around the traps, and yes plenty of experience there and a similiar vintage to me. i am pleased you are happy there and I also agree with you that the work is enjoyable.
I am pleased to hear you have made mention of this to the new CEO, and hopefully
he may do the management clean up that is required, unless they get to him first. Keep up the good work there.
Only time will tell if this happens, but it may pay for some of those trying to get back get the union to lobby this guy as well directly contacting him directly and find out the why's, whats and wherefors.
Duck, I find that rather unfare and to say "legendary" .... not from what I have heard. In fact the current BN manager received quite a pat on the back from me, as he actually handled certain matters rather well.
TTFN
I acknowledge your time around the traps, and yes plenty of experience there and a similiar vintage to me. i am pleased you are happy there and I also agree with you that the work is enjoyable.
I am pleased to hear you have made mention of this to the new CEO, and hopefully
he may do the management clean up that is required, unless they get to him first. Keep up the good work there.Only time will tell if this happens, but it may pay for some of those trying to get back get the union to lobby this guy as well directly contacting him directly and find out the why's, whats and wherefors.
Duck, I find that rather unfare and to say "legendary" .... not from what I have heard. In fact the current BN manager received quite a pat on the back from me, as he actually handled certain matters rather well.
TTFN
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Tweety,
If you're talking about Roger, well he got very sick recently (mystery illness) and is no longer the BN Centre manager. He's now doing something else. Currently Steve Shaw is filling the chair while the position has been advertised. It was also advertised externally.
If you're talking about Roger, well he got very sick recently (mystery illness) and is no longer the BN Centre manager. He's now doing something else. Currently Steve Shaw is filling the chair while the position has been advertised. It was also advertised externally.
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Amazing what goes down while watching your new son be born!!!!
Gotta say, this isn't my highest priority, and the cigars are on me!!!
I didn't belittle procedural control, old "big board" style, or TAAATS, have the utmost respect for that type of ATC. My point was that a guy having worked the sequencing in and out of Dubai, would surely be better utilised on at the very least a busy arrivals sector, or even better Approach. Yes you fill the jobs that are needed, but from all reports Approach is short, and is getting shorter, so why not use that experience there.
Anyway not wanting this to be a slinging match, but be constructive. Hopefully common sense will prevail one day. Cheers all.
I didn't belittle procedural control, old "big board" style, or TAAATS, have the utmost respect for that type of ATC. My point was that a guy having worked the sequencing in and out of Dubai, would surely be better utilised on at the very least a busy arrivals sector, or even better Approach. Yes you fill the jobs that are needed, but from all reports Approach is short, and is getting shorter, so why not use that experience there.
Anyway not wanting this to be a slinging match, but be constructive. Hopefully common sense will prevail one day. Cheers all.
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Some English lessons needed for some methinks. Figures of speech and verbs Plus our humour and culture is pretty different too.
The '**** Off' was aimed at the concept as opposed to individuals. Which is kind of why my post didn't target any individual nor an individuals post. If it was an imperative verb I'd have been using, then it would have identified who I was aiming the order to '**** off' at. For example, I might have used '**** off Tweety'
Instead, in much the same way as when the Government says they are putting the tax up on beers, UK citizens will say '**** right off', then I say the same to the idea which was mooted by others on the thread. It doesn't make my opinion right or wrong, just that I can have an opposite one if I so choose and be robust about it if it's a highly held opinion of mine. As can others (regardless of whether they agree or oppose my view) if they choose to play the ball and not the man. Perhaps Jerricho came across that type of phrase during his 'sentence' in the UK ? Particularly if he was involved in any union pay negotiations !!
My stereotype of Aussies is shattered now though, there's some fluffy sensitive ones out there too it seems
Anyhow, the debate has raised lots of issues and food for thought, with opinions and experiences from a broad spectrum, which is the whole idea of a Forum like this. Perhaps a poll would give an idea of the level of support for the various options being talked about ........
Thanks Tweety, did you take a vote on that .. or was it just a gut feeling that you were a natural spokesman for all the rest ?? Take a chill pill.
You're right Barra .. been spending wayyyy too much time watching Test cricket
Plus our humour and culture is pretty different too.The '**** Off' was aimed at the concept as opposed to individuals. Which is kind of why my post didn't target any individual nor an individuals post. If it was an imperative verb I'd have been using, then it would have identified who I was aiming the order to '**** off' at. For example, I might have used '**** off Tweety'
Instead, in much the same way as when the Government says they are putting the tax up on beers, UK citizens will say '**** right off', then I say the same to the idea which was mooted by others on the thread. It doesn't make my opinion right or wrong, just that I can have an opposite one if I so choose and be robust about it if it's a highly held opinion of mine. As can others (regardless of whether they agree or oppose my view) if they choose to play the ball and not the man. Perhaps Jerricho came across that type of phrase during his 'sentence' in the UK ? Particularly if he was involved in any union pay negotiations !!My stereotype of Aussies is shattered now though, there's some fluffy sensitive ones out there too it seems
Anyhow, the debate has raised lots of issues and food for thought, with opinions and experiences from a broad spectrum, which is the whole idea of a Forum like this. Perhaps a poll would give an idea of the level of support for the various options being talked about ........
so to you on behalf of the rest of the forum, I say "**** off".
PPrune Radar you really need to get out more
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 24th Sep 2005 at 01:41.
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Damn that blasted cricket (at least you didn't bring up the rugby!!!)
Definitely not fluffy and sensitive; just forgot to use those smily things to convey the intent of what I was saying!!!
Definitely not fluffy and sensitive; just forgot to use those smily things to convey the intent of what I was saying!!!
Last edited by Barra Tuesday; 24th Sep 2005 at 02:15.
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While watching the cricket PPRuneRadar, did you happen to find time to flick over to the football (soccer) and see some game that occured against Northern Ireland??? I heard there was a bit of an upset
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I for one would welcome the return of experienced Aus ATCs from OS. With the baby boomers starting to retire we need all the experience we can get.
I dont see why we need be punitive or snotty about them coming back on an increment commensurate with their experience either.
Even if it were possible to train a journeyman for less (and it isnt) there is still a world of difference between a new chum with 5 minutes experience and someone with 5, 10 or 15 yrs behind them.
One point of order though - forget about Approach ANSA, BIGHT group for you, BAROSSA at best but the approach jobs have a fairly long waiting list and the line starts somewhere behind me.
I dont see why we need be punitive or snotty about them coming back on an increment commensurate with their experience either.
Even if it were possible to train a journeyman for less (and it isnt) there is still a world of difference between a new chum with 5 minutes experience and someone with 5, 10 or 15 yrs behind them.
One point of order though - forget about Approach ANSA, BIGHT group for you, BAROSSA at best but the approach jobs have a fairly long waiting list and the line starts somewhere behind me.
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WhatWasThat, therein lies the reason I will be here for another 3 years at least. That and the beer is cold and the weather is great here. Not to mention the job is great fun. Maybe by the time 3 years comes round, the staff shortage will be a crisis, but we'll have to wait and see. By then though, thanks to Mr Howards Industrial Relations "reforms"(
), the only package on offer may be a 50 hour week, in return for a bowl of rice, and regular whippings to improve morale.
), the only package on offer may be a 50 hour week, in return for a bowl of rice, and regular whippings to improve morale.
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Ferris...
loyalty goes both ways old son, I mean I managed to put together 17 years with AsA (and all it's previous incarnations) before going o/s...how many did you do before going o/s and making use of that very expensive training?
That current HATCO (or whatever he is called now) Jason H if it is still him, was an up through the ranks kind of guy, I seem to remember him being an Aussie too, or is that not a high enough for you?
(unless it's a different guy, he started as a Flight Data in Adelaide)
"Hoody" in Melbourne is also an up through the ranks guy.
but lets not let facts get in the way of a good rant.
ps back in my dim distant past several guys went o/s for 2 or 3 years leave without pay and came back to their old slots..that happened to be above most of the rest of us given their time in job.
loyalty goes both ways old son, I mean I managed to put together 17 years with AsA (and all it's previous incarnations) before going o/s...how many did you do before going o/s and making use of that very expensive training?
That current HATCO (or whatever he is called now) Jason H if it is still him, was an up through the ranks kind of guy, I seem to remember him being an Aussie too, or is that not a high enough for you?
(unless it's a different guy, he started as a Flight Data in Adelaide)
"Hoody" in Melbourne is also an up through the ranks guy.
but lets not let facts get in the way of a good rant.
ps back in my dim distant past several guys went o/s for 2 or 3 years leave without pay and came back to their old slots..that happened to be above most of the rest of us given their time in job.
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Duck.....
Loyalty; fantastic about that 17 years- and it counts for......? Whats your point? That you were loyal? Right up until the day you left....
Loyalty is definately a 2 way street, which is why AsA receive the exact amount of loyalty they display to their staff. If the traffic numbers drop, how long do you think it would be before IVR was on the table? They have been champing at the bit to get rid of DTI for ages, and for what? The controller's benefit? I'm tipping it's in order to reduce controller jobs. That's just the tip of the 'loyalty' iceberg.
I think the 2 guys you mention would be the first to tell you that they are not senior management. There is not a single (ex-)controller in senior management, that is why they have the 'executive committee' to advise them on matters ATC. Fact.
ps. The rest of your rant just doesn't make sense. Is the thought of an approaching ramadan getting to you?
Loyalty; fantastic about that 17 years- and it counts for......? Whats your point? That you were loyal? Right up until the day you left....
Loyalty is definately a 2 way street, which is why AsA receive the exact amount of loyalty they display to their staff. If the traffic numbers drop, how long do you think it would be before IVR was on the table? They have been champing at the bit to get rid of DTI for ages, and for what? The controller's benefit? I'm tipping it's in order to reduce controller jobs. That's just the tip of the 'loyalty' iceberg.
I think the 2 guys you mention would be the first to tell you that they are not senior management. There is not a single (ex-)controller in senior management, that is why they have the 'executive committee' to advise them on matters ATC. Fact.
ps. The rest of your rant just doesn't make sense. Is the thought of an approaching ramadan getting to you?
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Riiiiiight, one thing I have got out of these exchanges is that.....ASA might not be a happy option 
oooooooo-kay then, so what are we left with 
I was thinking of selling Tuppaware or perhaps Amway....does anyone have the number for that....I might need it
oooooooo-kay then, so what are we left with I was thinking of selling Tuppaware or perhaps Amway....does anyone have the number for that....I might need it
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Come on DD, you seriously consider HATCO senior management???? Prior to Jason they had Adrian Dumass in the job. The man that said we didn't need to worry about procedural tolerances when deciding how wide the E corridor to Mildura had to be, because " the aircraft is where they say they are". Hmmm.
But on loyalty DD, I did 7 years and left not out of a lack of loyalty, but a lack of opportunities. The same old brown noses got the project jobs, and the rest of us were left to rot on quiet to medium traffic level area sectors for the rest of our natural life. You could only hope that after about 15 years service you get a pissant promotion to team leader where you ... well what do you do??!!
Deep down though I know I will go back to Australia some day, and I would like to keep doing the job I love, but instead of being penalised as a "splitter", I would hope I may be rewarded for the added knowledge and experience I have got, by getting off my arse and trying to improve myself as a controller. But also deep down I know that the jealousy from the same guys that have told me "yeh..I'd like to go overseas to work but... but.... but...." will prevail, and the guys coming back will be disadvantaged.
But on loyalty DD, I did 7 years and left not out of a lack of loyalty, but a lack of opportunities. The same old brown noses got the project jobs, and the rest of us were left to rot on quiet to medium traffic level area sectors for the rest of our natural life. You could only hope that after about 15 years service you get a pissant promotion to team leader where you ... well what do you do??!!
Deep down though I know I will go back to Australia some day, and I would like to keep doing the job I love, but instead of being penalised as a "splitter", I would hope I may be rewarded for the added knowledge and experience I have got, by getting off my arse and trying to improve myself as a controller. But also deep down I know that the jealousy from the same guys that have told me "yeh..I'd like to go overseas to work but... but.... but...." will prevail, and the guys coming back will be disadvantaged.
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ANSA
Well I have to admit that HATCO would be considered a senior guy to me...but what do I know?
Adrian, never heard of him, so I can't judge on his competence or otherwise, but I was on course with Jason and he is pretty switched on...for an SA/NT guy
As a "splitter" or Leaver as I would like to be known, you are always going to get the sh!t jobs to begin with, but remember, that is only at the beginning of your time back home.
As the seal said (piniped to you illiterates) you will be stood in great stead when you return the first TL slot that comes up. I mean, who on earth that has stayed behind is going to roll you? You have the same ratings that they have now (considering you are back and fully rated, or not as the case may be), they have probably spent their entire careers in one group. You have your old rating and experience which WILL count, as well as you o/s time. The guys that stayed behind really stand no chance.
This has been borne out time and time again in the past. I see no reason that it will not continue to be the same.
If, however you have ferris's and others attitudes that the AsA simply MUST emply you in the spot of your choosing, you are not on the same planet as the rest of us.
ferris old son, Ramadan worries me not a jot, and after all this will be number 8 for me here. I seem to be able to manage, thanks for your concern
I did notice (as did probably everyone else) that you din't answer the question of how much time you had done in OZ to garner your bitter attitude?
I guess it wasn't very long, so my question to you is who the hell are you to speak about loyalty? You obviously have no concept of it's real meaning. And who screwed you that you are so bitter?
did they not promote you as quickly as you thought proper? After a half a dogwatch, they were probably within their rights?
I do however take exception to your calling my rant a rant that made no sense?
I'll give you a tip from a somewhat more experienced viewpoint, take it or leave it I really couldn't care less...
ATC's dislike management
You can quote me on that too. I haven't ever been to a place, heard of, or spoken to anyone that doesn't think they could do a better job as boss.
It goes with the badge.
You can either think about that or be the bitter little person that you really don't wish to become.
Take several chill pills and call me in 3 or 4 days
Well I have to admit that HATCO would be considered a senior guy to me...but what do I know?
Adrian, never heard of him, so I can't judge on his competence or otherwise, but I was on course with Jason and he is pretty switched on...for an SA/NT guy
As a "splitter" or Leaver as I would like to be known, you are always going to get the sh!t jobs to begin with, but remember, that is only at the beginning of your time back home.
As the seal said (piniped to you illiterates) you will be stood in great stead when you return the first TL slot that comes up. I mean, who on earth that has stayed behind is going to roll you? You have the same ratings that they have now (considering you are back and fully rated, or not as the case may be), they have probably spent their entire careers in one group. You have your old rating and experience which WILL count, as well as you o/s time. The guys that stayed behind really stand no chance.
This has been borne out time and time again in the past. I see no reason that it will not continue to be the same.
If, however you have ferris's and others attitudes that the AsA simply MUST emply you in the spot of your choosing, you are not on the same planet as the rest of us.
ferris old son, Ramadan worries me not a jot, and after all this will be number 8 for me here. I seem to be able to manage, thanks for your concern
I did notice (as did probably everyone else) that you din't answer the question of how much time you had done in OZ to garner your bitter attitude?
I guess it wasn't very long, so my question to you is who the hell are you to speak about loyalty? You obviously have no concept of it's real meaning. And who screwed you that you are so bitter?
did they not promote you as quickly as you thought proper? After a half a dogwatch, they were probably within their rights?
I do however take exception to your calling my rant a rant that made no sense?
I'll give you a tip from a somewhat more experienced viewpoint, take it or leave it I really couldn't care less...
ATC's dislike management
You can quote me on that too. I haven't ever been to a place, heard of, or spoken to anyone that doesn't think they could do a better job as boss.
It goes with the badge.
You can either think about that or be the bitter little person that you really don't wish to become.
Take several chill pills and call me in 3 or 4 days
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No I have no problem with Jason (apart from not being the most exciting batsman to watch ). He always was straight with me, and did what he said he would, which is a rare commodity amongst ASA managers. But, HATCO wouldn't be classed as an executive position, and to be honest I don't know whether the Centre manager would be considered senior or junior to HATCO. Anyway beside the point really.
As far as being employed in the spot of your choosing, that is not what I would expect. What I was saying was that if you have just spent 5 years working 500 movements a day on a sector the size of one in Australia that handles 100 a day, surely, rather than sending you to that Oz sector, it would be better resource management to send you to a busier radar sector, and yes that may in fact be an approach sector.
I know that guys in Australia will say "there is a line for approach and it starts behind me", but really shouldn't selection for approach be done on merit. That is experience, and ability, in effect, selecting those people most likely to suceed in their training on approach. I don't expect to be put into positions more senior than my colleagues from my era, but I would think it makes sense to best utilise the skills I have gained from my experience in a busier overseas centre.
And as far as getting a TL job when you get back, due to being better qualified due to your O/S experience, it didn't happen last I heard. A few years back one of my colleagues in UAE, went back from Bahrain, and patiently waited for the first TL job to come up, and even though he hard far more experience, and aced everything else in the process, was told that he didn't get the job, because they had heard bad reports of him from a couple of his colleagues in the group. One of these colleagues was the guy who did get the job. Some groups in Melbourne have and always will be a mates club, and that group involved in Sydney arrivals from the West, is the worst of the lot. For that reason, I guess you can call me sceptical of how much benefit my O/S experience will give me, in any future I have with ASA.
). He always was straight with me, and did what he said he would, which is a rare commodity amongst ASA managers. But, HATCO wouldn't be classed as an executive position, and to be honest I don't know whether the Centre manager would be considered senior or junior to HATCO. Anyway beside the point really.As far as being employed in the spot of your choosing, that is not what I would expect. What I was saying was that if you have just spent 5 years working 500 movements a day on a sector the size of one in Australia that handles 100 a day, surely, rather than sending you to that Oz sector, it would be better resource management to send you to a busier radar sector, and yes that may in fact be an approach sector.
I know that guys in Australia will say "there is a line for approach and it starts behind me", but really shouldn't selection for approach be done on merit. That is experience, and ability, in effect, selecting those people most likely to suceed in their training on approach. I don't expect to be put into positions more senior than my colleagues from my era, but I would think it makes sense to best utilise the skills I have gained from my experience in a busier overseas centre.
And as far as getting a TL job when you get back, due to being better qualified due to your O/S experience, it didn't happen last I heard. A few years back one of my colleagues in UAE, went back from Bahrain, and patiently waited for the first TL job to come up, and even though he hard far more experience, and aced everything else in the process, was told that he didn't get the job, because they had heard bad reports of him from a couple of his colleagues in the group. One of these colleagues was the guy who did get the job. Some groups in Melbourne have and always will be a mates club, and that group involved in Sydney arrivals from the West, is the worst of the lot. For that reason, I guess you can call me sceptical of how much benefit my O/S experience will give me, in any future I have with ASA.
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 25th Sep 2005 at 17:42.
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but the approach jobs have a fairly long waiting list and the line starts somewhere behind me
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lame duck
Your rabbitting on about "loyalty" is making an idiot of you.
Perhaps you can't read, but where did I ever claim that
- I was 'loyal to' AsA?
- AsA owed me a job?
- AsA owed me a job of my choosing?
- I deserved a promotion that I didn't get?
Perhaps you are just making things up to fit your 'bitterness' argument?
I decline to answer your question about my AsA service as it would, undoubtedly, compromise anonymity of myself and others who are currently the subject of identity tracking over here.
Furthermore, it is totally irrelevant . Your 17 years service might be viewed as lacking loyalty the moment you resign. Can't you see that? You seem to have a figure in your head that satifies a 'loyalty' badge. AsA seem to have one too, as they have a bonding system now. Best you let them know your thoughts on what is actually 'loyal', because it appears they don't have it right. A dogwatch....please.
Once again, the point I am trying to make is that 'loyalty' is no longer a concept in operation in business in the western world. AsA clearly demonstrates that they have none for their staff, and expect none in return. The 'training bond' they employ is an economic function.
Even more confusing to those trying to follow your line of 'reasoning', omitting your continued attempts at making this personal, is your logic.
Maybe someone who was "loyal", and didn't leave?
Which way do you want it? Is it better to have 'been loyal', or is it better to have international experience? You bang on and on about how much better it is to have had the variety- belittling the people who were loyal. Then
That's pretty funny coming from someone who claims to have 25 years in the same job . Experienced at what, exactly? I'll wager I've had 5 totally different jobs to every one you've had. How does your 'variety' argument look upon your 'experience'?
By all means, continue your excellent arguments. When you decide whether loyalty is better than experience, or even what loyalty is, or how it can actually be translated into anything tangible, let us know. I'm laughing on a mouthful of 'chill pills'.
LMAO.
Your rabbitting on about "loyalty" is making an idiot of you.
Perhaps you can't read, but where did I ever claim that
- I was 'loyal to' AsA?
- AsA owed me a job?
- AsA owed me a job of my choosing?
- I deserved a promotion that I didn't get?
Perhaps you are just making things up to fit your 'bitterness' argument?
I decline to answer your question about my AsA service as it would, undoubtedly, compromise anonymity of myself and others who are currently the subject of identity tracking over here.
Furthermore, it is totally irrelevant . Your 17 years service might be viewed as lacking loyalty the moment you resign. Can't you see that? You seem to have a figure in your head that satifies a 'loyalty' badge. AsA seem to have one too, as they have a bonding system now. Best you let them know your thoughts on what is actually 'loyal', because it appears they don't have it right. A dogwatch....please.
Once again, the point I am trying to make is that 'loyalty' is no longer a concept in operation in business in the western world. AsA clearly demonstrates that they have none for their staff, and expect none in return. The 'training bond' they employ is an economic function.
Even more confusing to those trying to follow your line of 'reasoning', omitting your continued attempts at making this personal, is your logic.
As the seal said (piniped to you illiterates) you will be stood in great stead when you return the first TL slot that comes up. I mean, who on earth that has stayed behind is going to roll you?
Which way do you want it? Is it better to have 'been loyal', or is it better to have international experience? You bang on and on about how much better it is to have had the variety- belittling the people who were loyal. Then
I'll give you a tip from a somewhat more experienced viewpoint
By all means, continue your excellent arguments. When you decide whether loyalty is better than experience, or even what loyalty is, or how it can actually be translated into anything tangible, let us know. I'm laughing on a mouthful of 'chill pills'.
The guys that stayed behind really stand no chance.
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When I left - I was under no illusion what my chances were - and what the deal would be when (and If) I came back.
AsA are under no obligation to offer me a job - nor do I expect to be offered any 'special' deal with regards to position or promotion - I knew that when I left.
Controlling in Aus is totally different to controlling here in Eu, some things I have learnt will help me if I come back - and some will hinder, I know how hard I worked in Aus and here isnt better or worse - just different, the grass isnt greener just a different color.
DP love you.......like a lost brother
Tweety ....wish you were a lost brother
DD good luck.
PPrune Radar - see how good I have been - can I lose my 'Pardoned tag now'
AsA are under no obligation to offer me a job - nor do I expect to be offered any 'special' deal with regards to position or promotion - I knew that when I left.
Controlling in Aus is totally different to controlling here in Eu, some things I have learnt will help me if I come back - and some will hinder, I know how hard I worked in Aus and here isnt better or worse - just different, the grass isnt greener just a different color.
DP love you.......like a lost brother
Tweety ....wish you were a lost brother
DD good luck.
PPrune Radar - see how good I have been - can I lose my 'Pardoned tag now'