Aus Expats - would you go home (with poll)
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Hempy you really think the training finishes at the end of the supposed $300,000 course they give you? The training as an Air Traffic Controller should never stop, and is an ongoing constant process. By leaving Australia and going to a much busier, intense part of the world ATC wise, the individuals are accelerating that training process. From a personal point of view, in Australia I would never be issuing NOTAMS, grounding unairworthy aircraft, filing incident reports, and sequencing a trail of 20 or 30 aircraft with no help from a FLOW or any FLOW tools(ie. deciding the sequence myself and achieving it myself) all in one shift. There are valid arguments to say we shouldn't be doing that here either, but the fact remains we are, and so as a result of that, we are more experienced than our fellow controllers of the same years experience who stayed back in Australia.
If you look at this from AirServices point of view, yes they have spent money initially training us up, and in return we have given at least 5 years service before leaving. But what they are getting back by reemploying us on a salary that recognises our experience and ability, is not only a controller that has that original training and 5 years experience, but also a lot of qualifications and training that they didn't have to pay for. They get a controller who has been on an incident investigation course, a Centre Supervisor course, a Crtical Incident Stress Management course, and someone who has backed those courses up with extensive practical experience in each of those areas. I would say from Airservices point of view, they should be rubbing there hands together at the prospect of getting a freebie such as this.
As Ferris said we are not necessarily expecting more money, but we are expecting to be paid a salary that recognises our knowledge and experience. If that is hard for the guys who stayed in Oz to swallow, well stiff.
If you look at this from AirServices point of view, yes they have spent money initially training us up, and in return we have given at least 5 years service before leaving. But what they are getting back by reemploying us on a salary that recognises our experience and ability, is not only a controller that has that original training and 5 years experience, but also a lot of qualifications and training that they didn't have to pay for. They get a controller who has been on an incident investigation course, a Centre Supervisor course, a Crtical Incident Stress Management course, and someone who has backed those courses up with extensive practical experience in each of those areas. I would say from Airservices point of view, they should be rubbing there hands together at the prospect of getting a freebie such as this.
As Ferris said we are not necessarily expecting more money, but we are expecting to be paid a salary that recognises our knowledge and experience. If that is hard for the guys who stayed in Oz to swallow, well stiff.
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...sequencing a trail of 20 or 30 aircraft with no help from a FLOW or any FLOW tools(ie. deciding the sequence myself and achieving it myself) all in one shift.
I wouldn't push the aggressive loner thing, we are into group hugs at the end of the shift these days...
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Hempy, if I was able to make a decision of where I live based purely on ATC and enjoyment of work, I would never leave here. Some may say ATC has evolved in Australia whereas ATC here is still like the old days where you plug in and push the metal around till you get em in a straight line and fling em to approach. May be old fashioned but for me its a hell of a lot more fun.
Ability and experience are not the same thing, you are right Hempy, but if you are constantly working high levels of traffic safely, then surely that person would be able to be sent to a similarly busy sector back in Australia and slot in without too many problems. Speaking with guys who have returned recently, their time over here has helped them out immensely, and traffic levels have been the least of their problems. Learning to say "QANTAS-THIRTYTWO-TWENTY" or whatever it is you guys say these days has been a problem though, and sweating over the fact that you will be suspended for SHOCK HORROR! being late with some coordination is another thing to get used to after being in a place where if coordination is late, you apologise and if no problem came of it, it is logged and you keep working.
Just one last thing for JFOKKERJ, I know of one expat that went back and then left again. You may know of more but it hasn't been a lot thats for sure. The guy in question that I know of, was yes, firstly frustrated at the restraints placed on him in regards to handling high traffic loads all in the name of "protecting the roster", but also frustrated at the Team Leader position in his group being given to someone else with less experience and qualifications, because the person deciding on the job was told by the succesful candidate that our ex-expat was not a team player and not good for the job. Thats right, the ex-expats competitor for the job, not surprisingly doesn't give the ex-expat a glowing reference for the team leader job, so our ex-expat misses out. Hempy you would know first hand all about how that particular group works. It is not a lack of loyalty or just wanting a paid holiday back home that makes ex-expats leave, it is the frustration that the reasons we left in the first place are still there or worse than ever, and thats not a money issue, but a massive mismanagement, a lack of job satisfaction, and a lack of career developement issue.
Ability and experience are not the same thing, you are right Hempy, but if you are constantly working high levels of traffic safely, then surely that person would be able to be sent to a similarly busy sector back in Australia and slot in without too many problems. Speaking with guys who have returned recently, their time over here has helped them out immensely, and traffic levels have been the least of their problems. Learning to say "QANTAS-THIRTYTWO-TWENTY" or whatever it is you guys say these days has been a problem though, and sweating over the fact that you will be suspended for SHOCK HORROR! being late with some coordination is another thing to get used to after being in a place where if coordination is late, you apologise and if no problem came of it, it is logged and you keep working.
Just one last thing for JFOKKERJ, I know of one expat that went back and then left again. You may know of more but it hasn't been a lot thats for sure. The guy in question that I know of, was yes, firstly frustrated at the restraints placed on him in regards to handling high traffic loads all in the name of "protecting the roster", but also frustrated at the Team Leader position in his group being given to someone else with less experience and qualifications, because the person deciding on the job was told by the succesful candidate that our ex-expat was not a team player and not good for the job. Thats right, the ex-expats competitor for the job, not surprisingly doesn't give the ex-expat a glowing reference for the team leader job, so our ex-expat misses out. Hempy you would know first hand all about how that particular group works. It is not a lack of loyalty or just wanting a paid holiday back home that makes ex-expats leave, it is the frustration that the reasons we left in the first place are still there or worse than ever, and thats not a money issue, but a massive mismanagement, a lack of job satisfaction, and a lack of career developement issue.
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 3rd Nov 2006 at 15:59. Reason: Cos I felt like it.
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Looking for missing thread
Hi AirNoServicesAustrailia,
Any idea what happened to your "Indair Airindia RT" thread in the Middle East forum?
i ask because i had posted a response.
Wonder if the moderator yanked of the thread fearing public unrest!
Talk to you again at DXB
Any idea what happened to your "Indair Airindia RT" thread in the Middle East forum?
i ask because i had posted a response.
Wonder if the moderator yanked of the thread fearing public unrest!
Talk to you again at DXB
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oops i was looking at the wrong forum!
a bit like dialing the wrong frequency i guess!
AirNoServicesAustrailia,
i did find your response,thanks for doing your bit to try and prevent that thread from becoming an excuse for a racial slinging match.
Now back to the correct forum for further stuff on this topic!
AirNoServicesAustrailia,
i did find your response,thanks for doing your bit to try and prevent that thread from becoming an excuse for a racial slinging match.
Now back to the correct forum for further stuff on this topic!
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Hempy,
As the voting above suggests, no-one has suggested that they return and "earn more money than the people with the same amount of service".
One thing should not be forgotten though, that is , many individuals left from the Top of FPC and some have been offered Top of journeyman. Sorry, but in my book that is a demotion. There are many cases in ASA where people would like to leave, but due to personal circumstances are unwilling or unable to leave. Some people have seen people leave and come back and have realised their opportunity to do something has just vanished and therefore the " Sour Grapes " issue rears it's ugly head.
You know what you should be arguing for in the next EBA, the setup of an Exchange Program
For me, I made the decision to leave , I took all the risk of not checking out , I took the risk of never being able to return, and it is the best thing I have ever done. Whether I elect to return is debatable, as I see the same issues still abundant in ASA as when I joined in the late 80's. Some issues will always remain eg. the anally retentive way that certain grades of incidents are handled, the fear that management put into controllers with regards to having incidents etc., I am glad I am not there and fingers crossed will never be there again.
Not to mention the fact that ASA have (in most cases recently) spent 3 to 4 hundred grand to train someone who then decides that the golden $ is too much of a lure and says "thanks for training me up, I'll be off now". And then have the gall to say "I'm a much better controller for leaving, now I want to come back to the best country in the world, but only if I get more money than the people with the same amount of service". Talk about having your cake and eating it too
One thing should not be forgotten though, that is , many individuals left from the Top of FPC and some have been offered Top of journeyman. Sorry, but in my book that is a demotion. There are many cases in ASA where people would like to leave, but due to personal circumstances are unwilling or unable to leave. Some people have seen people leave and come back and have realised their opportunity to do something has just vanished and therefore the " Sour Grapes " issue rears it's ugly head.
You know what you should be arguing for in the next EBA, the setup of an Exchange Program
For me, I made the decision to leave , I took all the risk of not checking out , I took the risk of never being able to return, and it is the best thing I have ever done. Whether I elect to return is debatable, as I see the same issues still abundant in ASA as when I joined in the late 80's. Some issues will always remain eg. the anally retentive way that certain grades of incidents are handled, the fear that management put into controllers with regards to having incidents etc., I am glad I am not there and fingers crossed will never be there again.
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As you have been at pains to explain, you are working traffic levels now that you would never see in Australia. If this is the case, why would Airservices need to pay you more to control traffic in Aus
And I never said Airservices should pay me more, I said they should pay me what I am worth, in relation to my experience and training. Being a 10 year controller, 4 of those in a high density arrivals departure radar environment, I should be paid what a 10 year controller in a high density arrivals/departures environment in Australia is paid. If you don't think that is fair then we will have to agree to disagree.
And just to clarify this is not to belittle the job Aussie controllers do, or the difficulty of their job, as they have challenges we don't have to face, eg. limited radar coverage, a very labor intensive ATC system taking focus time away from the radar screen, and as Euronator said, a way of grading the seriousness of incidents like nowhere else in the world, where a controller can never have a reduction but be suspended over and over again due to coordination errors.
My point is and always has been that the experience I have gained overseas is of value to Airservices and as such they should pay me as my experience warrants.
And to second Euronators comments about an exchange program. I think Australian ATC would benefit greatly from such a program as it would open a lot of eyes to different ways of "skinning the cat", as well as exposing ATC'ers to a lot of things they will rarely if ever see in Australia.
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 3rd Nov 2006 at 13:23. Reason: To clarify motivation for writing what I did.
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Hi ANSA,
It's interesting to reread this thread after some time has passed. I agree with you about coming back a better controller, and what you should be paid.
The only issue is that AsA is run by career managers who try to run a safety service organisation like any other business. Unfortunately, safety is expensive. Sure, not nearly as expensive as an accident, but its hard to prove on a ledger for an accountant, so they won't believe you. This narrow, blinkered view is also evident in their treatment of Oz controllers returning to Oz.
Because of this mentality and their lack of CDF, we're unlikely to see a change in the current policy.
It's interesting to reread this thread after some time has passed. I agree with you about coming back a better controller, and what you should be paid.
The only issue is that AsA is run by career managers who try to run a safety service organisation like any other business. Unfortunately, safety is expensive. Sure, not nearly as expensive as an accident, but its hard to prove on a ledger for an accountant, so they won't believe you. This narrow, blinkered view is also evident in their treatment of Oz controllers returning to Oz.
Because of this mentality and their lack of CDF, we're unlikely to see a change in the current policy.
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Hey DP, from what I have heard from other expats returning, and their dealings with managers, for the most part (there is an exception), it hasn't been the managers that were the problem in all this. They have been very keen to employ the experienced guys from overseas, and pay them accordingly, because they then know they will have in a few months time a validated, extremely valuable person on the roster, rather than hoping an ab-initio checks out and then wait at least 3 years or so, for that journeyman to be really worthwile on the roster.
What seems to be the real stumbling block in all this is the attitudes of the controllers who have stayed in Oz. There is a huge amount of sour grapes or jealousy, or anger (I don't know which emotion it is), amongst alot of the controllers towards the returning ex-expats, and so if the managers offer for example a 10 year controller, what a 10 year controller is getting paid in Oz there would be mutiny amongst some of the troops. Yes we could be seen as having been disloyal by jumping ship, but on the flip side we could be looked upon favourably (as we would be in a lot of other industries) as having taken it upon ourselves to stretch ourselves professionally and gain skills we would not have if we'd stayed in Australia.
Anyway this whole discussion is pretty irellevant because there is one big thing I have learned while working here in the Middle East, and that is the Market decides what you are worth. If as a lot of people are saying, Air Services are heading for a staffing crisis (as most other countries are going through right now) in the ATC field, then experienced, ready to go controllers will become more and more valuable to them, and we will be able to play a bit harder to get. If on the other hand they find themselves flush with staff, then we will have to get on our hands and knees and grovel to get our job back at whatever rate is on offer. I personally think, from their track record in the past (ie. Voluntary redundancy....staff shortage....VR...staff shortage.....VR....staff shortage etc.) there will come a point when the crunch will come and we will become very very valuable to them. We will see.
What seems to be the real stumbling block in all this is the attitudes of the controllers who have stayed in Oz. There is a huge amount of sour grapes or jealousy, or anger (I don't know which emotion it is), amongst alot of the controllers towards the returning ex-expats, and so if the managers offer for example a 10 year controller, what a 10 year controller is getting paid in Oz there would be mutiny amongst some of the troops. Yes we could be seen as having been disloyal by jumping ship, but on the flip side we could be looked upon favourably (as we would be in a lot of other industries) as having taken it upon ourselves to stretch ourselves professionally and gain skills we would not have if we'd stayed in Australia.
Anyway this whole discussion is pretty irellevant because there is one big thing I have learned while working here in the Middle East, and that is the Market decides what you are worth. If as a lot of people are saying, Air Services are heading for a staffing crisis (as most other countries are going through right now) in the ATC field, then experienced, ready to go controllers will become more and more valuable to them, and we will be able to play a bit harder to get. If on the other hand they find themselves flush with staff, then we will have to get on our hands and knees and grovel to get our job back at whatever rate is on offer. I personally think, from their track record in the past (ie. Voluntary redundancy....staff shortage....VR...staff shortage.....VR....staff shortage etc.) there will come a point when the crunch will come and we will become very very valuable to them. We will see.
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What's the point of having your cake if you can't eat it?
Jealousy, envy and anything else associated to that type of emotion is an ugly thing.
Yes! People should be paid what they are worth whether they have been with the company 20 minutes or 20 years based on their experience. Who cares what the othet person next to you is earning? If you have been with ASA for 20 years and are getting paid accordingly and I step into the seat next you with 20 years experience and get paid the same but have only been with the company for 6 months and fully rated - WHO CARES?!!!
If that gets peoples noses out of joint then it is nothing more than immaturity. I just don't get that sort of mentality.
And if ASA don't want to pay the bucks then they don't get the experience unless one wants to accept the unbalanced pay as a trade-off for the Australian lifestyle.
I'ts evident ASA are hurting but they will never admit it.
You get what you pay for!
Jealousy, envy and anything else associated to that type of emotion is an ugly thing.
Yes! People should be paid what they are worth whether they have been with the company 20 minutes or 20 years based on their experience. Who cares what the othet person next to you is earning? If you have been with ASA for 20 years and are getting paid accordingly and I step into the seat next you with 20 years experience and get paid the same but have only been with the company for 6 months and fully rated - WHO CARES?!!!
If that gets peoples noses out of joint then it is nothing more than immaturity. I just don't get that sort of mentality.
And if ASA don't want to pay the bucks then they don't get the experience unless one wants to accept the unbalanced pay as a trade-off for the Australian lifestyle.
I'ts evident ASA are hurting but they will never admit it.
You get what you pay for!
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ANSA,
Jealousy, no way...except if you're goose in Europe and can get to the RWC2007.
Yes, AsA are heading for a staffing crisis. In the next 6 - 12 months it will become critical.
Jealousy, no way...except if you're goose in Europe and can get to the RWC2007.
Yes, AsA are heading for a staffing crisis. In the next 6 - 12 months it will become critical.
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You are kidding right? This is most likely the most rediculous thing I have seen you put on this site. I can assure you, that there is absolutely no feeling of the kind towards people returning form OS. Interestingly, many of the guys who did pack up and leave (not all of course) were not the most popular amongst their work mates to start with. I would expect that any reports you may have heard have been more of 'Oh crap, not him again'.
Last edited by tobzalp; 7th Nov 2006 at 03:08.
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Tobzalp
I hope that wasn't reference to me ? I still curse the days I had to train you
Interestingly, many of the guys who did pack up and leave (not all of course) were not the most popular amongst their work mates to start with.
I hope that wasn't reference to me ? I still curse the days I had to train you
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Hah. I am an idiot trainee again as we speak. I think it is pretty obvious who fits into what pidgeon hole. I think I was initially unfair with my 'many' comment above. I amend it to 'some' after reflection. Most of the guys are good blokes. Except Eurogoose that is
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Hey tobzalp (respect),
how's it going using the 3nm standard. You'll get good at talking to PJE operators as well.
Back to the topic, which has caused some amount of discussion within Aisle 3 at BN. Wyverns reckons that he and the others he knows who have returned from os did not receive any negative feedback, emotion, reaction from the guys who remained behind.
Chips and shoulders perhaps ANSA?
how's it going using the 3nm standard. You'll get good at talking to PJE operators as well.
Back to the topic, which has caused some amount of discussion within Aisle 3 at BN. Wyverns reckons that he and the others he knows who have returned from os did not receive any negative feedback, emotion, reaction from the guys who remained behind.
Chips and shoulders perhaps ANSA?
Well I'm wiling to give it a go! Have submitted my application on line but apart from the (automatic?) response heard nothing so far. Someone said it might be a good idea to approach the centre/towers manager directly. Anyone care to pm me with some email addresses please? Then, assuming I get a job I can let all the others know what really happens to returnees. bit like the 4400!
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I guess I am basing my comment on speaking to one of those guys that went back and then left again. I don't think he was particularly unpopular but he said that anytime he mentioned "in the Middle East we do it this way", as in maybe we could try skinning the cat a different way, rather than in a condascending way, the guys in his group got their backs up. And the day he was asked to split sectors cos he had 4 aircraft on frequency, and "if we don't split em we will lose staff off the roster", to which he sacreligeously replied "well maybe we could afford to lose some staff off the roster", that was it for him. So yes whilst you Tobzalp may not personally feel any jealousy or sour grapes towards returning expats, I don't think you can speak for every colleague in your centre, or the one to the Sth.
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Dirty Pierre,
Individual Tickets for RWC2007 come on sale 9th November. Might just have to saunter over to Cardiff & down to Marseille for the day...Why, because I can
Unfortunately I will be back in Aus when the cricket WC is on in Jamaica & Barbados, because that was definitely on the cards...Oh well 2 WC in 2 years is not bad. Managed to see 4 games at the Football World Cup including England v Portugal 1/4 Final ( Poor Poms ).
Individual Tickets for RWC2007 come on sale 9th November. Might just have to saunter over to Cardiff & down to Marseille for the day...Why, because I can
Unfortunately I will be back in Aus when the cricket WC is on in Jamaica & Barbados, because that was definitely on the cards...Oh well 2 WC in 2 years is not bad. Managed to see 4 games at the Football World Cup including England v Portugal 1/4 Final ( Poor Poms ).
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This is developing into an interesting discussion because when I visited Brissy Centre recently this year it wasn't a happy place and the managers (office, centre isle and main desk) indicated it was only getting and will continue to get worse until a radical change was made higher up. Upper management attitude towards staff, how the job is done etc is just so anally retentive, it's indicative of a severely authoritarian style and lacks just plain common sense towards developing simple, honest and open relationships with staff on the floor. 
Discontent breeds discontent until someone gets hurt.
Discontent breeds discontent until someone gets hurt.