Southampton-3

[SKOJB]

This announcement is not the best of news for SOU,very strange limited times,are SOU pandering to Easy,hoping for Some Summer routes?
Lets hope SOU doesnt go down the Southend route with Easy, we need Loganair and air lingus.

Surely it’s good news for SOU. Loganair offer high frequency high fares that suit the business person who wishes to travel there and back in a day and their employers are picking up the air fare. 49 seats on a E145 is probably 80% filled by business users as the leisure traveller is just unwilling to pay the huge ticket costs. EZY with its limited frequencies will be used primarily by friends and family being flexible with dates and times, thus both airlines have their niche and will operate side by side. My thoughts although maybe wrong!

[willy wombat]

Flying GLASOU and vv on a Saturday morning in the winter reeks of desperation. Couldn’t think of anything else to do with the aircraft.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Surely it’s good news for SOU. Loganair offer high frequency high fares that suit the business person who wishes to travel there and back in a day and their employers are picking up the air fare. 49 seats on a E145 is probably 80% filled by business users as the leisure traveller is just unwilling to pay the huge ticket costs. EZY with its limited frequencies will be used primarily by friends and family being flexible with dates and times, thus both airlines have their niche and will operate side by side. My thoughts although maybe wrong!
Nope, Loganair also needs the leisure market and must offer higher fares to make multiple daily frequencies work on a smaller aircraft. They will likely lose enough volume to easyJet to tip the operation into the red and that will be the end of that. This isn't a market that's about to explode in volume IMHO.

[Sotonsean]

Suggest we come back tomorrow.

Did Thursday live up to your expectations 😞

[Wycombe]

Flying GLASOU and vv on a Saturday morning in the winter reeks of desperation. Couldn’t think of anything else to do with the aircraft.
On Saturdays when there are cruise ship departures from (and arrivals into) Southampton it might do ok

[davidjohnson6]

I'm struggling to understand why people are so negative on Easyjet starting SOU to GLA and BFS. Years ago when FR started routes to Malta, people thought it would be a disaster for connectivity to the island - the number of passengers at MLA doubled. There was concern again with Tel Aviv airport - again traffic increased significantly once the LCCs gained entry. Jersey doesn't seem to have suffered terrible privations because Easyjet fly to London - although it has made the island significantly more affordable to reach.

SOU is not some special llittle island... trains will continue, LGW, LHR, BRS and BOH are still accessible if things go wrong. No, SOU is not sexy (I used to live there), but there's almost certainly plenty of ordinary everyday people who would like to travel between the south coast and Edinburgh/Glasgow at modest prices, maybe to see family at the other end of the UK, but just can't afford Loganair fares and haven't got all day to go by train. If the airfare dramatically falls in price, that air ticket suddenly becomes viable for Joe Bloggs.

FR will happily ruthlessly screw an airport over, but U2 generally seem to be more reasonable and are acceptable to those travelling for work - the kind of LCC an airport would want to deal with.

Airports like Bristol and Leeds have found that embracing LCCs really does significantly boost traffic. Why shouldn't it have the same effect at SOU, and why is a bit of experimentation really so bad ? Airports that take no risks tend not to thrive long-term

[Albert Hall]

Did Thursday live up to your expectations 😞

Nope. There is more to come though.

On Saturdays when there are cruise ship departures from (and arrivals into) Southampton it might do ok​​​​​​​

Isn't that the point - there are hardly any in the winter? The cruise ships are either off on RTW journeys or in the Caribbean on fly-cruise.

[SouthernAlliance]

I'm struggling to understand why people are so negative on Easyjet starting SOU to GLA and BFS. Years ago when FR started routes to Malta, people thought it would be a disaster for connectivity to the island - the number of passengers at MLA doubled. There was concern again with Tel Aviv airport - again traffic increased significantly once the LCCs gained entry. Jersey doesn't seem to have suffered terrible privations because Easyjet fly to London - although it has made the island significantly more affordable to reach.

SOU is not some special llittle island... trains will continue, LGW, LHR, BRS and BOH are still accessible if things go wrong. No, SOU is not sexy (I used to live there), but there's almost certainly plenty of ordinary everyday people who would like to travel between the south coast and Edinburgh/Glasgow at modest prices, maybe to see family at the other end of the UK, but just can't afford Loganair fares and haven't got all day to go by train. If the airfare dramatically falls in price, that air ticket suddenly becomes viable for Joe Bloggs.

FR will happily ruthlessly screw an airport over, but U2 generally seem to be more reasonable and are acceptable to those travelling for work - the kind of LCC an airport would want to deal with.

Airports like Bristol and Leeds have found that embracing LCCs really does significantly boost traffic. Why shouldn't it have the same effect at SOU, and why is a bit of experimentation really so bad ?

Spot on, supporters and critics on this thread have for years moaned that the airport cannot attract a LCC due to airfield limitations and now it’s at last possible, SOU are being slated because EZY have made wrong choices and bad route decisions. I’m afraid you cannot have it both ways, either they come in and start small with future route expansion likely or the airport plods on for years making losses and questions are asked about it’s future. EZY don’t give a toss about Loganair and vice versa, dog eat dog and business viability will win the day. All I will say is that easyjet has been courted by SOU and it’s supporters for years and now they have finally committed, negativity reigns supreme and talk of failure is rife, we shall see but I think I know who the airport will be siding with!

[Rivet Joint]

So yet again I’ve been proved right. I said probably 2 years ago that when the runway was done Easyjet would start building a base. It’s almost like I have a crystal ball. This is just the start and will become a 2 aircraft base and then finally a 4 aircraft base. Wizz air will also open some routes. Come back to this post in the years to come.

In respect of Logan and Emerald, there will still be room for them but reduced frequencies. Can see Logan being double daily with early morning and late evening with Easy doing one in the middle. Emerald one a day. As for their ticket prices being more than Easy, quite a lot of the tickets are being bought by employers who don’t care about saving £100 or so. They need the flexibility for their staff.

It’s onwards and upwards for SOU and I look forward to seeing a lot of the detractors on this thread eat a lot of humble pie now. This victory tastes very sweet indeed :D

[Albert Hall]

RJ, that's absolute b****cks. There's nothing here which says that Southampton will ever become a base. If you predicted that, you still have a very long way to go to be proved right. Yes, easyJet will have a presence at SOU and will be expanded next summer with sunshine flying, but that's not the base of which you speak. Happy to come back in years to come to see who's right, but for now, it's BS.

[Wycombe]

Nope. There is more to come though.



Isn't that the point - there are hardly any in the winter? The cruise ships are either off on RTW journeys or in the Caribbean on fly-cruise.
True, some are in the Carribean (I will be on one this winter) and a few are on RTW's, but there are also some going to Christmas markets etc (as I was last winter!)

Coming down from Scotland (or indeed NI) to join a cruise ship at Southampton adds a day (and sometimes overnight accom etc) to each end of the holiday, so what's not to like if there is an affordable flight down/up on the day of departure/arrival.

Oh, and agree re. the above post from RJ, I don't see an EZY base coming, but I do see flights from other bases (ALC for next Summer?) and maybe even some W's for SOU

[willy wombat]

While I appreciate that some feel that the arrival of EZY on already served domestic routes from SOU is good news, I think they underestimate 1/ the likely effect on Loganair and 2/ how poorly EZY serve some domestic routes. Going to 1/. I accept that the planned twice weekly winter service, particularly at those weird timings, will not decimate the LM operation but be in no doubt it will have an effect. Two A320s a week is roughly the same capacity as seven ERJ145s and the pax to fill the EZY flights will have to come from somewhere. Even if half of them are “new”, the loss of the other half will be very noticeable to LM. If EZY increased to a daily service I doubt whether LM could survive it. 2/ If EZY became the sole operator on the route, don’t kid yourselves that you get a “good” schedule. Look at, for example, BHX to Scotland. Random timings where they’ve got a gap. Ditto BHD to regions. And on LGWGLA this winter, which you think would be a fairly prime route, there are no flights in the morning at all on Thursday or Friday. The best hope for SOU Scotland is that EZY get their fingers burnt and retreat sharply.

[LTNman]

Remember that Easyjet once operated Glasgow, Edinburgh and Belfast routes from Southend. Those routes went well before the pandemic. There was another time when Ryanair started to compete with Easyjet's successful Luton Copenhagen route. Easyjet eventually pulled the route due to Ryanair's pricing leaving Ryanair as the sole provider. Once they won they moved the route to Stansted leaving Luton's busiest route with no passengers.

The danger here is that Easyjet could damage bread and butter routes.

[Rivet Joint]

RJ, that's absolute b****cks. There's nothing here which says that Southampton will ever become a base. If you predicted that, you still have a very long way to go to be proved right. Yes, easyJet will have a presence at SOU and will be expanded next summer with sunshine flying, but that's not the base of which you speak. Happy to come back in years to come to see who's right, but for now, it's BS.

My prediction was Easy would start operating at SOU which they did with GVA. No one would believe they would operate the route from SOU when they did it from BOH. I then predicted they would expand beyond that route on summer routes and some domestic routes. Again no one believed it. We now have the start of the regional routes with summer routes to come next year. Probably waiting for the work to the stands to be done.

I have always said that Easy and SOUs catchment are hand in glove. I said if SOU made the changes to make their ops viable they would come. Here they are are now building their ops.

As I said, come back in 2 years when Easy have a vase and I have been vindicated again.

[Rivet Joint]

Remember that Easyjet once operated Glasgow, Edinburgh and Belfast routes from Southend. Those routes went well before the pandemic. There was another time when Ryanair started to compete with Easyjet's successful Luton Copenhagen route. Easyjet eventually pulled the route due to Ryanair's pricing leaving Ryanair as the sole provider. Once they won they moved the route to Stansted leaving Luton's busiest route with no passengers.

The danger here is that Easyjet could damage bread and butter routes.

You’re going to have to rename yourself SOUman at this rate.

[stewyb]

EZY are using a very similar model to BHX and building routes with away based flying. I wouldn’t ever rule out a 3 aircraft base but it won’t happen for a couple of years and they will want to see route growth before anything further materialises. Next summer will be interesting with the popular sun routes coming on board!

[GayFriendly]

If they're following their BHX approach at SOU then don't hold your breath ...EZY are cautious about new base openings. Their first BHX route was GVA (like SOU) in 2007. (although I think year round from the outset although happy to be corrected)...for years we only had GVA and BFS then GLA and EDI after Flybe1 went bust in 2020. Slow growth to a base in 2024 that is being widely touted as taking over the current away based routes, leaving little room for new destinations ,( if indeed this rumour is true,)

Indeed no major reason for EZY not to eventually open a base at SOU but I think they'll have to grow away based flights first to a level that warrants the cost of setting up and running an operational base. At present, a winter seasonal to GVA and a couple of twice weekly domestics do not a base make. I think though that SOU must surely be in line for PMI/ALC/AGP by EZY in S24 in addition to EDI plus increased frequency on GLA and BFS?

The good thing for SOU is that the interest is there from EZY, however I'm sure none of you want EZY to dominate as BE did.....and previous posters comments about the BHX - GLA and EDI schedules are correct, constantly chipping and changing and no fixed early - middle day - evening schedule (perhaps this will change with the base being opened)

[RW20]

If they're following their BHX approach at SOU then don't hold your breath ...EZY are cautious about new base openings. Their first BHX route was GVA (like SOU) in 2007. (although I think year round from the outset although happy to be corrected)...for years we only had GVA and BFS then GLA and EDI after Flybe1 went bust in 2020. Slow growth to a base in 2024 that is being widely touted as taking over the current away based routes, leaving little room for new destinations ,( if indeed this rumour is true,)

Indeed no major reason for EZY not to eventually open a base at SOU but I think they'll have to grow away based flights first to a level that warrants the cost of setting up and running an operational base. At present, a winter seasonal to GVA and a couple of twice weekly domestics do not a base make. I think though that SOU must surely be in line for PMI/ALC/AGP by EZY in S24 in addition to EDI plus increased frequency on GLA and BFS?

The good thing for SOU is that the interest is there from EZY, however I'm sure none of you want EZY to dominate as BE did.....and previous posters comments about the BHX - GLA and EDI schedules are correct, constantly chipping and changing and no fixed early - middle day - evening schedule (perhaps this will change with the base being opened)
Good points,but what everyone should remember is SOU has very rigid opening hours,something that will be an unsolvable obstacle for Easy who can regularly land post 23-00!

[Sotonsean]

Nope. There is more to come though.



Isn't that the point - there are hardly any in the winter? The cruise ships are either off on RTW journeys or in the Caribbean on fly-cruise.

Although the majority of cruise ships are elsewhere during the winter season the Port of Southampton still sees certain cruise ship calls during that period. For the first time in the port's history the Port of Southampton handled 16 cruise ships in February 2023, with three turnarounds on one particular day.

[SWBKCB]

Can those that constantly imply you have to be as rich as Croesus to fly with LM back that up?

Airports like Bristol and Leeds have found that embracing LCCs really does significantly boost traffic. Why shouldn't it have the same effect at SOU, and why is a bit of experimentation really so bad? Airports that take no risks tend not to thrive long-term

How much influence in to where and when EZY fly do SOU have?

[Asturias56]

depends if they are subsidising the airline or not. If they're not, then other than the opening hours, about zero influence

[cavokblues]

I don't buy the argument that Loganair are that expensive either, tbh.

The alternatives are you either drive or get the train. In which case the price and time saving offered by LM is significantly better value.

Easy might take some of the leisure travel but I'm not sure their schedule will be that attractive to those that need to go at certain times or days. If I was a betting man I wouldn't be at all surprised if those easy domestic routes don't survive in next summer's schedule. But, as others have widely predicted, there will be several flights a week to sun destinations.

[davidjohnson6]

SOU-GLA in November with Loganair is a minimum of £85 oneway. However, flights with a VERY similiar departure time to those with Easyjet cost just £50. Easyjet start at £35 oneway. Loganair is not offering the cheaper fare on any date before the end of October, which just happens to be when Easyjet start flying.

The difference in price is real money to many people, especially for a return of 2 adults and 2 kids going to see grandparents, who probably would otherwise travel at a much lower frequency or maybe not at all.

Driving takes 7 hours nonstop or 8+ hours allowing for breaks at motorway services. The train takes about 7 hours oneway.

There is no way an E145 can possibly match the operating cost per passenger of an A320-family aircraft, assuming an 80%+ load factor, so Loganair in general has to charge significantly higher fares.

Yes, Easyjet charge extra for all kinds of ancillaries, but many people (that includes me), particularly on short domestics for a short trip, will find a way to minimise their ancillary expenditure.

Note - I have nothing personal against Loganair. I've flown with them several times. No flight was cancelled. One flight was delayed because of a large thunderstorm on a small island. Crew have always provided a high level of service. But I just believe SOU-EDI/GLA post-Covid needs the cost benefits of LCC 150+seat aircraft service instead of the high cost of an E145

[cavokblues]

But if I have to be in Glasgow any day other than a Thursday or Saturday I've go no flying option other than LM.

I just don't think easyJet's timings are particularly great for what, by and large, must be business pax?

[Dropoffcharge]

Good points,but what everyone should remember is SOU has very rigid opening hours,something that will be an unsolvable obstacle for Easy who can regularly land post 23-00!
This has and always will be the restriction that makes any potential LCC base twitchy from SOU, it has been mentioned so many times now I've actually lost count.

[stewyb]

This has and always will be the restriction that makes any potential LCC base twitchy from SOU, it has been mentioned so many times now I've actually lost count.

Certain contributors to this thread have over the years totally ruled out EZY ever coming to SOU in any shape or form (exc GVA). Guess what it’s happened and they are clearly intent on building a future here, to the extent that sun routes will be announced shortly. Let’s wait and see with regards to any future basing but I wouldn’t rule it out at this stage!

[Rivet Joint]

Good points,but what everyone should remember is SOU has very rigid opening hours,something that will be an unsolvable obstacle for Easy who can regularly land post 23-00!

Because you have such a good track record of getting things right don’t you? Oh the runway will never get planning. Oh but the runway will be stopped by protesters. Oh but it will never be built. Oh but it’s going to be delayed. Oh but it’s taking such a long time. Easy will never operate from SOU. BOH is better than SOU etc etc Any excuse to be negative.

I think you owe everyone on here an apology for your behaviour over the years but none of us will hold our breath.

[Rivet Joint]

This has and always will be the restriction that makes any potential LCC base twitchy from SOU, it has been mentioned so many times now I've actually lost count.

You better phone Easy up and pass on your wisdom. I’m sure they didn’t think about that and will now cancel all routes.

Comparing other airports is daft. SOU has a large wealthy catchment so a completely different market to the north. They might want to fly to club 18-30 type places in Turkey, Egypt etc getting home at 4am but down this way they want to get to second homes in France and city breaks in nice old cities. Those people aren’t wanting to get home in the early hours.

The other thing most of you aren’t aware enough to realise is some bases are strategic. Jet2 are expanding across the country so whoever gets in at SOU first locks that airport up. This will also be a reason Easy are keen. It will do well to serve as a niche market accompanying a larger base at LGW. SOU are wise to realise that Easy is the best match for them rather than that Irish rabble.

[cavokblues]

He did refer to the early closure time might result in Easy being twitchy about a base - not operating routes from other bases.

[SWBKCB]

SOU has a large wealthy catchment

and a long list of abandoned routes - funny that no airline has yet been able to exploit it, are they all waiting for the runway extension?

[RW20]

Because you have such a good track record of getting things right don’t you? Oh the runway will never get planning. Oh but the runway will be stopped by protesters. Oh but it will never be built. Oh but it’s going to be delayed. Oh but it’s taking such a long time. Easy will never operate from SOU. BOH is better than SOU etc etc Any excuse to be negative.

I think you owe everyone on here an apology for your behaviour over the years but none of us will hold our breath.
The standard drival from you yet again,you are the one who needs to apolgise to all the contributors who dont hold your views,but none the less are entitled to there view just ad much as you. As I have said before when you have been criticised for your ranting by many on this forum,its time for you to leave this blog.

[Dropoffcharge]

He did refer to the early closure time might result in Easy being twitchy about a base - not operating routes from other bases.

Thank you CB, that was exactly what I was trying to add from a reality point of view, but as per usual was taken out of context with a childish reply.

[SouthernAlliance]

Hopefully see AGP/PMI/ALC/FAO and maybe NCE/BOD from EZY for S24?

[Pain in the R's]

and a long list of abandoned routes - funny that no airline has yet been able to exploit it, are they all waiting for the runway extension?


Well that is the truth so just ignore the wokes who are easily offended.

[SouthernAlliance]

Well that is the truth so just ignore the wokes who are easily offended.

BE were very successful for years on the med routes and regional France

[laviation]

Yes, with tiny Q400s.

[SWBKCB]

BE were very successful for years on the med routes and regional France

Were they? How many got re-instated by V2, and how many have been picked up by other operators?

[Jamesair1]

Do the domestic routes attract many pax who are joining a cruise...say GLA and NCL?

[SouthernAlliance]

Were they? How many got re-instated by V2, and how many have been picked up by other operators?
you very well know the answer to that, a mere matter of a pandemic, V2 being watered down to a bare minimum and up until BACF, no other airline could fly the med with equipment suitable off the runway!

[SWBKCB]

How many of BE's other routes haven't been picked up? V2 will have known more about the profitablity of the French routes than you or I, but their approach was lukewarm. PMI has been flown by many operators using a variety of aircraft over the years. 'very successful' routes don't sit without an operator for long.

[SouthernAlliance]

How many of BE's other routes haven't been picked up? V2 will have known more about the profitablity of the French routes than you or I, but their approach was lukewarm. PMI has been flown by many operators using a variety of aircraft over the years. 'very successful' routes don't sit without an operator for long.

I repeat, BE worked PMI for years with success. Operability hasn’t been available to any other airline up until now. This will change hopefully with the extension and EZY will know their numbers far better than you or I!

[Buster the Bear]

https://aviationsourcenews.com/airline/loganair-celebrates-350000th-passenger-at-southampton-airport/

[cavokblues]

Operability hasn’t been available to any other airline up until now.

That will be news to Volotea who flew A319's to PMI? Didn't Vueling operate to Barcelona? 757s have operated to Mahon and further afield in the late 90s early 2000s

[SouthernAlliance]

That will be news to Volotea who flew A319's to PMI? Didn't Vueling operate to Barcelona? 757s have operated to Mahon and further afield in the late 90s early 2000s

Yep and they were all having to offload pax and baggage to get airborne from SOU, hence the routes became uneconomic. This will change now my friend and the orange lot seem to agree!

[cavokblues]

Quite. But a route being operable and economically viable are different things.

[Sotonsean]

That will be news to Volotea who flew A319's to PMI? Didn't Vueling operate to Barcelona? 757s have operated to Mahon and further afield in the late 90s early 2000s

Exactly, other than the former Flybe and current BACF "sunshine routes" flown from Southampton the following airlines and routes previously operated from the airport.

Alicante,

Air Europa B733/B734

Barcelona,

Vueling A319

Faro,

Sata B733
TUI B733

Ibiza

Air Europa B733/B734
Volotea A319/B717

Malaga,

Air Europa B733/B734

Mahon,

Air Europa B733/B734
TUI B733/B757

Malta,

Air Malta B733

Palma,

Air Europa B733/B734
Evelope A320I
Iberojet A320
Oasis MD83
Spanair A320/MD83
Transeuropa SE210
TUI B733/B734
Volotea A319/B717

Tenerife,

Air Europa B733/B734
TUI B757

Varna,

BH Air A320

I'm certain that Air Europa flew to all of the Spanish destinations but I've added those that I am aware of.

I've got the impression that the poster in question is obviously too young to realise the above information.

[SKOJB]

Price war already broken out on GLA route, Loganair have reduced their one way fares on Thu/Sat to within £15 of EZY (this on equivalent flight departing around the same time on these days)

[toledoashley]

Price war already broken out on GLA route, Loganair have reduced their one way fares on Thu/Sat to within £15 of EZY (this on equivalent flight departing around the same time on these days)

I know there are some who think that Loganair should get carte blanche, but it just shows you what happens when there is some competition.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I know there are some who think that Loganair should get carte blanche, but it just shows you what happens when there is some competition.
No that's not fair, Loganair make low margins in a good year and absolutely need to charge non LOCO fares to remain in business. People say "They're overcharging!" Well, no, they're charging what they need to make money on the route.
It's a classic people wanting their cake and eating it.
Want multiple daily business friendly frequencies with connections to the Highlands and Islands? Then Loganair's your best option.
Want to fly for a lot less and don't mind when you fly? Then easyJet is a great option, but expect lower frequency.
I don't think there's room for both on SOU-GLA and it seems Loganair will be pushed out so net benefit is lower average fares at the expense of connectivity, which may be OK in this market. Times change. What you don't want to see is an easyJet monopoly flying Sun/Mon/Wed/Fri only :)

[SKOJB]

I know there are some who think that Loganair should get carte blanche, but it just shows you what happens when there is some competition.

Assume it’s been Loganair maximising their monopoly on the route and now having to sharpen their pencil and accept a margin reduction. If EZY wish to squeeze further, they can add more capacity and then it becomes even harder. It’s a tough old world out there!

[LTNman]

Making profits won’t interest people here who are only interested in counting passengers, as a way of measuring success.
It will all end in tears with no one serving Glasgow. Just think Southend.

[SKOJB]

One saving grace here is the cruise industry and a shuttle down from Scotland will always be popular, whoever the carrier might be!

[cavokblues]

I'm not anti easyJet in the slightest here but saying Loganair is expensive because easyJet offer flights for £35 on a few flights per week after 4pm on a Thursday seems a little unfair.

If you have to be in Glasgow by 11am on a Monday morning the comparison is the price and time spent on a train. In which case Loganair are very well priced.

[LTNman]

https://simpleflying.com/loganair-unhappy-easyjet-new-southampton-glasgow-route/

The Scottish regional carrier fears that its services could be jeopardized as a result of easyJet's presence, despite operating more often.


While airlines relish competition, Loganair CEO Jonathan Hinkles took to LinkedIn last week to share certain concerns about this move. Looking at four other UK domestic (https://simpleflying.com/tag/domestic/) routes, he noted that, in recent years, easyJet "has started up competition on each of these routes, and then hastily pulled off again.

Hinkles worries that, on the days when both easyJet and Loganair flights are serving the Glasgow-Southampton route (Thursdays and Saturdays, in this case), demand won't be sufficient to sustain both services. This may have the potential to affect the Scottish carrier's long-term viability on the corridor

[Albert Hall]

Reading between the lines, I don’t think he thinks much of easyJet’s network planning either but has stopped short of publicly calling them inept! Pretty clear that none of these ventures by easyJet have worked so the assumption seems to be that this won’t either. I can see why, but guess it’s painful in the meantime for as long as it lasts.

[Rivet Joint]

LM have had a good run but post runway it’s time for a low cost operator to be the main operator at SOU. Is it really too much of a stretch to imagine the Scottish routes being double daily on a 320? LM are doing 5 flights a day as it is.

I see LMs point but let’s not overlook the fact they could have brought in larger more economical aircraft to operate the route which would lead to lower fairs. There were a lot of q400s going spare. I do not think there is another airline in Europe operating affectively a business jet on commercial services. They could have acted but didn’t, so part of this is their own fault.

[SWBKCB]

LM have had a good run but post runway it’s time for a low cost operator to be the main operator at SOU. Is it really too much of a stretch to imagine the Scottish routes being double daily on a 320? LM are doing 5 flights a day as it is.

I see LMs point but let’s not overlook the fact they could have brought in larger more economical aircraft to operate the route which would lead to lower fairs. There were a lot of q400s going spare. I do not think there is another airline in Europe operating affectively a business jet on commercial services. They could have acted but didn’t, so part of this is their own fault.

Always easy to spend somebody else's money! Ever thought that there might be a reason why there are a lot of Q400's going spare?

[RW20]

LM have had a good run but post runway it’s time for a low cost operator to be the main operator at SOU. Is it really too much of a stretch to imagine the Scottish routes being double daily on a 320? LM are doing 5 flights a day as it is.

I see LMs point but let’s not overlook the fact they could have brought in larger more economical aircraft to operate the route which would lead to lower fairs. There were a lot of q400s going spare. I do not think there is another airline in Europe operating affectively a business jet on commercial services. They could have acted but didn’t, so part of this is their own fault.
So you want Easy to come in and squeeze LM out?,only to drop the route down the line as they do,Southend for example. Theres no way this route could attract 2x320 a day!,and are they not using a 319 for there Glasgow service. Yet again pipe dreams from you,leave the domestic routes to the smaller boys like LM,and hopefully have Easy for your Sun routes,.

[willy wombat]

LM have had a good run but post runway it’s time for a low cost operator to be the main operator at SOU. Is it really too much of a stretch to imagine the Scottish routes being double daily on a 320? LM are doing 5 flights a day as it is.

I see LMs point but let’s not overlook the fact they could have brought in larger more economical aircraft to operate the route which would lead to lower fairs. There were a lot of q400s going spare. I do not think there is another airline in Europe operating affectively a business jet on commercial services. They could have acted but didn’t, so part of this is their own fault.

As I pointed out in a post above, the idea of EZY providing a decent twice daily schedule SOUGLA is a pipe dream. Look at their BHX Scotland schedules or even LGWGLA on a winter Thursday or Friday.

[LTNman]

This thread has similarities to the Southend thread from a few years ago with all the optimistic talk and we all know how that ended.

[stewyb]

U2 are playing a bit of cat and mouse here with Loganair, they won’t see these domestics as big money earners although the odd daily service up north/NI will supplement the Loganair offering and most likely test their resolve for any potential drop out. The real money to be had is from summer flights and EZY will be announcing more destinations shortly!

[Albert Hall]

The domestics need frequency and as has been pointed out, easyJet cannot and do not provide that. Look at how they are managing routes like NCL/BRS nowadays - it is a shadow of its former self and virtually useless for business travel. Good luck if that’s what you wish SOU to become.

And there is also the minor point that LM are/were the best hope for reinstating any form of half-decent SOU/MAN service. With relations with AGS likely now under pressure, I’d be surprised if that happens. AGS might just have shot themselves through both feet here in terms of easyJet domestics at SOU versus killing off any hope of growth from others. Can’t say for sure, but watch how this plays out.

[RW20]

The domestics need frequency and as has been pointed out, easyJet cannot and do not provide that. Look at how they are managing routes like NCL/BRS nowadays - it is a shadow of its former self and virtually useless for business travel. Good luck if that’s what you wish SOU to become.

And there is also the minor point that LM are/were the best hope for reinstating any form of half-decent SOU/MAN service. With relations with AGS likely now under pressure, I’d be surprised if that happens. AGS might just have shot themselves through both feet here in terms of easyJet domestics at SOU versus killing off any hope of growth from others. Can’t say for sure, but watch how this plays out.
Could it be that AGS have had to offer domestic inroad by Easy to SOU and in return obtain some Sun routes?

[stewyb]

The domestics need frequency and as has been pointed out, easyJet cannot and do not provide that. Look at how they are managing routes like NCL/BRS nowadays - it is a shadow of its former self and virtually useless for business travel. Good luck if that’s what you wish SOU to become.

And there is also the minor point that LM are/were the best hope for reinstating any form of half-decent SOU/MAN service. With relations with AGS likely now under pressure, I’d be surprised if that happens. AGS might just have shot themselves through both feet here in terms of easyJet domestics at SOU versus killing off any hope of growth from others. Can’t say for sure, but watch how this plays out.

The fact that T3 cancel more than they operate on MAN, you may as well stick EZY on that route 4 days a week!

[DP.]

The domestics need frequency and as has been pointed out, easyJet cannot and do not provide that.

Correct. I used to be a semi-regular business traveller to SOU from MAN, both to the surrounding area and occasionally onwards to/from the Channel Islands, with FlyBe. When going to the surrounding area, the route was a great alternative to the train, but it was only useful due to timing and frequency.

[SKOJB]

Correct. I used to be a semi-regular business traveller to SOU from MAN, both to the surrounding area and occasionally onwards to/from the Channel Islands, with FlyBe. When going to the surrounding area, the route was a great alternative to the train, but it was only useful due to timing and frequency.

Route can’t be that important as nobody is serving it for the next 3.5 months, pathetic!

[Albert Hall]

The fact that T3 cancel more than they operate on MAN, you may as well stick EZY on that route 4 days a week!

And if easyJet had a genuine interest in the structure of the domestic market, that is exactly what they would do. MAN/SOU is unserved and likely to remain so for now. Instead, easyJet is duplicating services already offered by Emerald and Loganair as a means of keeping those operators in check so that they become no wider threat to them.

It is not good for the market and even more surprising that airports like BHD and SOU are so gullible as to fall for this behaviour and support it. More fool them - the long term consequences for both the airports and consumers won’t be good.

[willy wombat]

I really don’t think that EZY is trying to keep Loganair and Emerald “in check”. Neither of these operators is in any way a threat to EZY’s core business. I think it’s simply the case that they have a couple of spaces in the programmes of their GLA and BHD based aircraft and no better idea what to do.

[SWBKCB]

I really don’t think that EZY is trying to keep Loganair and Emerald “in check”. Neither of these operators is in any way a threat to EZY’s core business. I think it’s simply the case that they have a couple of spaces in the programmes of their GLA and BHD based aircraft and no better idea what to do.

I agree, more than likely a couple of SOU shaped holes in the programme

It is not good for the market and even more surprising that airports like BHD and SOU are so gullible as to fall for this behaviour and support it. More fool them - the long term consequences for both the airports and consumers won’t be good.

What influence do the airports involved have?

[Asturias56]

"It is not good for the market and even more surprising that airports like BHD and SOU are so gullible as to fall for this behaviour and support it."

Are they tasked with preserving the current range of airlines - I don't think so

And seriously given the choice between Loganair or EasyJet operating from your airport which would you choose? You'r e looking to make as much as possible from the passengers as they pass through - and medium term EJ are a far better bet than Loganair to provide those volumes.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

They need to be careful legally here, if easyJet want to compete on existing routes the airport is obliged not to discourage this even if it may impact their longer term goals. Competition if offered should not be disincetivised according to the law as it stands? ISTBC.

[CabinCrewe]

the airport is obliged not to discourage this
Don’t think thats true at all nowadays…

[TartinTon]

They need to be careful legally here, if easyJet want to compete on existing routes the airport is obliged not to discourage this even if it may impact their longer term goals. Competition if offered should not be disincetivised according to the law as it stands? ISTBC.

They can be selective in the start-up discounts that they offer but cannot refuse the operations unless it's due to terminal/slot constraints. Worst case is that the new airline operates using rack rates.

[adfly]

Looks like Aer Lingus Regional are increasing Dublin to 20x weekly (2x Sat, 3x Sun-Fri) from the start of the winter season. Good to see that route growing nicely, and the extra flight should improve connectivity to/from their North American flights.

[Rivet Joint]

Always easy to spend somebody else's money! Ever thought that there might be a reason why there are a lot of Q400's going spare?

Quite a few have been snapped up by now. They could have replaced the 145s with q400s for their longer routes and also LHR. Kept the ATRs for short and thin routes. They have two fleets either way but at least with my suggestion they would serve different purposes.

[Rivet Joint]

As I pointed out in a post above, the idea of EZY providing a decent twice daily schedule SOUGLA is a pipe dream. Look at their BHX Scotland schedules or even LGWGLA on a winter Thursday or Friday.

BHX is a lot closer to Scotland isn’t it? Got pretty decent train connections? I’m not familiar with Easy’s other regional routes from other airports but comparing SOU with other airports is a bit daft. Completely different area and demographic. I agree low cost operators have a history of coming in pushing people out and then disappearing but isn’t that what BE did often? It’s part of any business. Regionals can still serve the routes if they retain some frequency, have connections etc like Emerald do. Let’s see. SOU is definitely not going to turn away business either way.

[planedrive]

From the winter slot report for Manchester, Loganair have applied for slots for a 3x daily SOU-MAN from the start of 2024. A long time off and just a slot request at the moment, but hopefully this will come to fruition!

[Saabdriver1]

Quite a few have been snapped up by now. They could have replaced the 145s with q400s for their longer routes and also LHR. Kept the ATRs for short and thin routes. They have two fleets either way but at least with my suggestion they would serve different purposes.

For one, I am so glad no-one listens to armchair banter like this as the basis for making decisions.

The Q4 is a very different and much more complex aircraft and also one which is out of production so comes with all of the problems of spare parts supply and lack of proper OEM support. Listening to some of the ex-Flybe crews about the troubles they had with them, it’s best avoided.

Any fleet changeover like this costs several million quid in training for pilots and engineers, re-tooling and lost productivity during the changeover. On top of replacing 340s with ATRs, trying to change 145s for Q4s at the same time would be a total disaster. It’s easy to say “do this, do that” but when you’ve no understanding of the full extent of what’s actually involved, it’s best left alone.

For those airlines who already have Q4s like Wideroe and Luxair, know the aeroplane and have the support internally for them (and same goes for Loganair with the 145s) then sticking with the fleet and even getting a few more is logical. For an airline re-fleeting, why would you go for an aircraft which is already obsolete?

I remember being told that we were offered a fleet of Q4s free of lease charges after Flybe collapsed first time. The leasing company was told that even that wasn’t cheap enough. I doubt the same offers remain on the table today so the economics will be even worse.

[Rivet Joint]

For one, I am so glad no-one listens to armchair banter like this as the basis for making decisions.

The Q4 is a very different and much more complex aircraft and also one which is out of production so comes with all of the problems of spare parts supply and lack of proper OEM support. Listening to some of the ex-Flybe crews about the troubles they had with them, it’s best avoided.

Any fleet changeover like this costs several million quid in training for pilots and engineers, re-tooling and lost productivity during the changeover. On top of replacing 340s with ATRs, trying to change 145s for Q4s at the same time would be a total disaster. It’s easy to say “do this, do that” but when you’ve no understanding of the full extent of what’s actually involved, it’s best left alone.

For those airlines who already have Q4s like Wideroe and Luxair, know the aeroplane and have the support internally for them (and same goes for Loganair with the 145s) then sticking with the fleet and even getting a few more is logical. For an airline re-fleeting, why would you go for an aircraft which is already obsolete?

I remember being told that we were offered a fleet of Q4s free of lease charges after Flybe collapsed first time. The leasing company was told that even that wasn’t cheap enough. I doubt the same offers remain on the table today so the economics will be even worse.

I see your points but my comments were merely linked to the fact if LM were a bit bolder they could be in a better position to offer lower fairs and compete with any low cost operator if they had moved away from operating small business jets on the Scottish routes. Agreed that there is a lot involved with a fleet change. I personally think LM will be fine and will still have a presence at SOU.

[pug]

I see your points but my comments were merely linked to the fact if LM were a bit bolder they could be in a better position to offer lower fairs and compete with any low cost operator if they had moved away from operating small business jets on the Scottish routes. Agreed that there is a lot involved with a fleet change. I personally think LM will be fine and will still have a presence at SOU.

It’s their core business model though. Isn’t it a bit like saying they could go and get a fleet of 737’s and compete with Ryanair or Easyjet? Or Eastern going and getting a load of A320’s and competing with Jet2?

They are a small airline with a niche business model that to whatever extent seems to work. They obviously prefer to offer frequent service at a higher cost, how well they do at that from a business/passenger perspective I’ve no idea. But to suggest they’ve dropped the ball by not changing fleets is out of turn in my view.

[laviation]

From the winter slot report for Manchester, Loganair have applied for slots for a 3x daily SOU-MAN from the start of 2024. A long time off and just a slot request at the moment, but hopefully this will come to fruition!
Fantastic.. with the recent interlining agreement between EI and LM you can even carry on to JFK/MCO/BGI

[SWBKCB]

Or just fly SOU-DUB-USA with Aer Lingus

[Albert Hall]

if LM were a bit bolder they could be in a better position to offer lower fairs and compete with any low cost operator

That’s the exact same strategy that did for Flybe! They offered lower fares that didn’t cover costs and still had competition from the likes of easyJet as their markets were bigger and the step from a Q400-sized market to an A319-sized market was smaller. I wouldn’t wish that approach on Loganair - or even Eastern, come to think of it!

[Asturias56]

"if LM were a bit bolder they could be in a better position to offer lower fairs and compete with any low cost operator"

they have to beat Ryanair - who are generally believed to be able to breakeven at fares 70% of EJ's

I don't think people understand just how LOW COST an LCO has to be

[stewyb]

EZY - GVA for W23 add Fri and 3rd flight on Sat (20/01-17/02) making it x 6/7 weekly!

[RW20]

EZY - GVA for W23 added Fri and 3rd flight on Sat (20/01-17/02) making it x 6/7 weekly!
Thats excellent news!,now lets wait for Easy SOU Summer 24 details,this is the most important issue for the airport

[RW20]

I went past BOH today for first day in what seems like months and on the south side along side the road there appears to be a new radar tower but the array’s weren’t turning. Anyone know what is going on? I think you need to ask the Bournemouth contributors this ,not Southampton!

[sealo0]

I think you need to ask the Bournemouth contributors this ,not Southampton!
Thanks for the heads up, I thought I was on the Bournemouth page, unless the mods moved it, it’s showing on there.

[RW20]

latest email from the contractors is they are on course to complete the runway works by August,they have had some technical issues( which they havnt stated)
but continue to press on with the weather helping.
Heres to further route news soon?

[stewyb]

latest email from the contractors is they are on course to complete the runway works by August,they have had some technical issues( which they havnt stated)
but continue to press on with the weather helping.
Heres to further route news soon?

some technical issues maybe, still due completion by end July latest, new summer orange routes x 4 (at least) to be announced

[Sotonsean]

There hasn't been any progress updates on the airport's extension APP since the 25 May. With the fine weather that we are currently experiencing surely it wouldn't be too difficult to get some drone footage of the current status of the runway extension.

[LTNman]

latest email from the contractors is they are on course to complete the runway works by August


It will no doubt take longer to open the extension than to build it.

[TCAS FAN]

It will no doubt take longer to open the extension than to build it.

Please stop banging on with the continual negativity. From your previous posts you obviously have a problem with project management/mismanagement at LTN, you have no evidence to show that the same will happen at SOU.

Provided that post construction work, ie AGL flight inspection and survey, are completed promptly I would speculate that the improved runway declared distances will come into effect in two months or less after finish of construction.

[stewyb]

Please stop banging on with the continual negativity. From your previous posts you obviously have a problem with project management/mismanagement at LTN, you have no evidence to show that the same will happen at SOU.

Provided that post construction work, ie AGL flight inspection and survey, are completed promptly I would speculate that the improved runway declared distances will come into effect in two months or less after finish of construction.

official opening is September

[TCAS FAN]

official opening September, presume distance declarations will be in place at this point!

I rest my case. Best of luck to the NATS tower ATCOs with the extended 20 backtrack. Role on Phase 2 for the TWY Alpha missing link.

[stewyb]

I rest my case. Best of luck to the NATS tower ATCOs with the extended 20 backtrack. Role on Phase 2 for the TWY Alpha missing link.

totally agree and think it’s a big mistake not adding Alpha now!

[TCAS FAN]

official opening is September

My nomination for the person to open it, probably the longest serving airport SOU employee having originally worked for based airlines such as BUA (1960s) and Air UK, and finally until his retirement NATS, renown aircraft photographer Barry Friend.

[RW20]

It will no doubt take longer to open the extension than to build it.
What are you basing this assumption on?
You seem to have in for Southend and Southampton

[LTNman]

Regulatory bodies are not noted for their speed, which can lead to frustration. As for Southend, I am a big supporter but there is little point in wearing rose tinted glasses when the facts paint a different picture with just 2 departures on Saturday, and yes it is summer.

[ATNotts]

Regulatory bodies are not noted for their speed, which can lead to frustration. As for Southend, I am a big supporter but there is little point in wearing rose tinted glasses when the facts paint a different picture.
You are right, however efficient the construction, the final hurdle (bureaucracy) in all fields can be the most frustrating.

Its not a case of being anti SOU, SEN or anywhere else, its just a reality check.

[RW20]

official opening is September

Can I ask where you got this info from?,latest email from the construction team is mid August for completion ,so official opening in September seems rather optimistic !

[stewyb]

Can I ask where you got this info from?,latest email from the construction team is mid August for completion ,so official opening in September seems rather optimistic !

You can ask but I won’t say, my previous posts are accurate

[TCAS FAN]

Can I ask where you got this info from?,latest email from the construction team is mid August for completion ,so official opening in September seems rather optimistic !

Sorry to be pedantic, what is defined as “completion”? If I were AGS I am not going to pay the final invoice until my surveyors have confirmed that I have the 164 metres that I am paying for, the runway markings are in accordance with plans approved by CAA and the AGL changes are firstly in accordance with the CAA approved project plans and secondly have been successfully flight checked. That’s what I’d define as “completion”.

In line with my definition I’d be planning the official opening in September.

[LTNman]

So will runway 02 be finally be getting an ILS and some proper approach lighting? The lighting could do with upgrading at the other end as well. If not that will knock off some significant time, as nothing needs setting up apart from the PAPI lights.

So what will be the RVR at both ends once the work is finished?

[SWBKCB]

Sorry to be pedantic, what is defined as “completion”? If I were AGS I am not going to pay the final invoice until my surveyors have confirmed that I have the 164 metres that I am paying for, the runway markings are in accordance with plans approved by CAA and the AGL changes are firstly in accordance with the CAA approved project plans and secondly have been successfully flight checked. That’s what I’d define as “completion”.

In line with my definition I’d be planning the official opening in September.


Interesting point - does anybody know if this is actually what is meant by 'completion'? Is it the delivery of the physical infrastructure, i.e. once the point is dry on the revised runway markings, or the day the extension is officially/legally available for use, or possibly a number of points inbetween.

Anybody know how these contracts nornmally work? Is the contractor just responsible for the physical infrastructure or do are do they deliver a total solution - presumably this would involve integration into the operators existing processes and procedures? As you can tell, don't have much knowledge of how these sorts of projects are delivered!

[LTNman]

Well it won't be when it can be officially used as that is out of the control of the builder.

[SouthernAlliance]

Ref #1590, any guesses as to easyjet destinations being announced?

[TCAS FAN]

There hasn't been any progress updates on the airport's extension APP since the 25 May. With the fine weather that we are currently experiencing surely it wouldn't be too difficult to get some drone footage of the current status of the runway extension.

Share your sentiments. After the much heralded approval of the project following the protracted legal wrangling, due to the lack of regular construction updates that were inferred by provision of the app, it’s ended up a bit of a PR damp squib.

[TCAS FAN]

………. Anybody know how these contracts nornmally work? Is the contractor just responsible for the physical infrastructure or do are do they deliver a total solution - presumably this would involve integration into the operators existing processes and procedures? As you can tell, don't have much knowledge of how these sorts of projects are delivered!

As the runway extension project is subject to the CAA’s CAP 791 three stage infrastructure change process I suspect that some form of staged payment process will have been written in related to completion of the stages. In this respect the final part of the CAP 791 process “Completion” requires:

”On completion of the change, the aerodrome operator should confirm to the CAA that it meets the agreed design criteria and is fit for purpose.”

Once AGS submit the relevant documents to satisfy this requirement , after a post construction survey and AGL flight check, and CAA rubber stamp it the contractor gets a final payment, less possibly a nominal sum held back to cover any faults that may arise in the first few months of operational use.

[TCAS FAN]

You are right, however efficient the construction, the final hurdle (bureaucracy) in all fields can be the most frustrating.

Its not a case of being anti SOU, SEN or anywhere else, its just a reality check.

From personal experience agree that the CAA are not renowned for their work rate, they expect you, the customer, to respond expeditiously but do not themselves reciprocate.

As they already have most of the required project data, there is just the proof required in the CAP 791 Completion stage to be signed off. They’ve had the project schedule for months so surely someone has already pencilled in a time slot for the Completion review. AGS will have paid them mega bucks for their time on this project, so can expect something in return for it.

The CAA website specifies a 10 day service level for response to correspondence, if only an initial “we are on the case”. Even if they go this way, if all the required proof is contained in the final documents submitted by AGS, I would be still be expecting a formal opening in September, with availability of the improved declared distances published by NOTAM prior to it.

[Sotonsean]

Ref #1590, any guesses as to easyjet destinations being announced?

No real need for guesses is there 🙄

I'm in no way suggesting or implying that EasyJet are to announce further routes from Southampton regardless of the obvious post's on here. I will wait for the day until an official statement is made by EasyJet as I am not the type of person who takes rumours seriously. But if and when EasyJet do announce further routes from Southampton I would imagine that they will be the obvious choices as in.

Alicante
Faro
Malaga
Palma

With the addition of Edinburgh if EasyJet decided to maintain domestic flights to Southampton.

And "maybe" possibly other potential destinations in the future such as,

Barcelona
Berlin
Ibiza
Milan
Nice
Venice

Some people are posting on here as if they have inside knowledge which with some posters is clearly untrue.

Everyone has to wait until Christmas Day to open their Christmas presents so I'm sure those who are interested in any expansion plans by EasyJet will just have to wait in a similar fashion until something is officially announced by the airline.

Let's all put a halt to this as it's getting boring 😴

[SouthernAlliance]

No real need for guesses is there 🙄

I'm in no way suggesting or implying that EasyJet are to announce further routes from Southampton regardless of the obvious post's on here. I will wait for the day until an official statement is made by EasyJet as I am not the type of person who takes rumours seriously. But if and when EasyJet do announce further routes from Southampton I would imagine that they will be the obvious choices as in.

Alicante
Faro
Malaga
Palma

With the addition of Edinburgh if EasyJet decided to maintain domestic flights to Southampton.

And "maybe" possibly other potential destinations in the future such as,

Barcelona
Berlin
Ibiza
Milan
Nice
Venice

Some people are posting on here as if they have inside knowledge which with some posters is clearly untrue.

Everyone has to wait until Christmas Day to open their Christmas presents so I'm sure those who are interested in any expansion plans by EasyJet will just have to wait in a similar fashion until something is officially announced by the airline.

Let's all put a halt to this as it's getting boring 😴

I was only asking a question and this is a rumour site, if you don’t like it you can post elsewhere. Also stewyb has been right on other occasions when it comes to airport info

[rog747]

No real need for guesses is there 🙄

I'm in no way suggesting or implying that EasyJet are to announce further routes from Southampton regardless of the obvious post's on here. I will wait for the day until an official statement is made by EasyJet as I am not the type of person who takes rumours seriously. But if and when EasyJet do announce further routes from Southampton I would imagine that they will be the obvious choices as in.

Alicante
Faro
Malaga
Palma

With the addition of Edinburgh if EasyJet decided to maintain domestic flights to Southampton.

And "maybe" possibly other potential destinations in the future such as,

Barcelona
Berlin
Ibiza
Milan
Nice
Venice

Some people are posting on here as if they have inside knowledge which with some posters is clearly untrue.


Indeed - and the rather big IF is that should Easyjet decide to add more routes flying in to, and out of SOU, then it will only be from the places where the EasyJet Group have based aircraft and crews;
ie: such as those flights currently served from GVA which are operated by easyJet Switzerland, and those from BFS and GLA are by EasyJet UK.
Any other routes such as PMI, VCE, AGP, ALC FAO etc would be operated by EasyJet Europe's based aircraft (No IBZ or MLA bases BTW) and likely many would be summer only.

[TCAS FAN]

So will runway 02 be finally be getting an ILS and some proper approach lighting? The lighting could do with upgrading at the other end as well. If not that will knock off some significant time, as nothing needs setting up apart from the PAPI lights.

So what will be the RVR at both ends once the work is finished?

Apart from slightly improved declared distances on RWY 02, there will be no change to its operating characteristics.

ILS on RWY 02 is not going to happen, any operational improvements that it may result are so small that it is not financially viable. The way forward will be a RNP IAP, with LPV minima when the UK is able to sort something out to replace the EGNOS satellite constellation which we lost access to on leaving the EU.

If a precision IAP ever happens on RWY 02 the PAPI are not going to need modification unless the GP is to be raised above the current angle.

RVR minima for both runways unaffected by the extension. With "intermediate" level of approach lighting on both runways the current EU-OPS approach minima for a CAT C aircraft (ie A320/A319) should be around 700 metres (RWY 20) and 1600 metres (RWY 02). Expenditure on improved lighting may be welcomed by aircrew, due to the land constraints off either end of the runway any possible improvements to approach lighting will not impact the approach minima, so a business case for it simply does not stack up.

If you can produce evidence that I, and others, have got the likely operational date for the extension wrong, you can revel in a "I told you so" post! If not please take the rest of the SOU runway extension project off from this thread.

[stewyb]

Final post on this subject from me also. Extension completion planned for mid-end July, official opening diarised for 21st Sept

[TCAS FAN]

Final post on this subject from me also. Extension completion planned for mid-end July, official opening diarised for 21st Sept

Hopefully that's also the last we hear on the subject from LTNman.

If you have any influence on the issue, rather than some transient local civic person or "personality" to formally open it, my nomination for someone who devoted his whole working life to the airport is at post 1597.

[Sotonsean]

Hopefully that's also the last we hear on the subject from LTNman.

If you have any influence on the issue, rather than some transient local civic person or "personality" to formally open it, my nomination for someone who devoted his whole working life to the airport is at post 1597.

Although I don't personally know Barry Friend I'm aware of who he is. He has a fine collection of photos on airbritain.com and the BCAL and BIA remembered sites of aircraft at Southampton Airport from the 1960s upto the 1990s before the current terminal was completed. Good to know he is still around.

[Sotonsean]

Hopefully that's also the last we hear on the subject from LTNman.

If you have any influence on the issue, rather than some transient local civic person or "personality" to formally open it, my nomination for someone who devoted his whole working life to the airport is at post 1597.

I was only asking a question and this is a rumour site, if you don’t like it you can post elsewhere. Also stewyb has been right on other occasions when it comes to airport info

"If you don't like it you can post elsewhere" 🤔

I don't think that you are in any position to inform me of that. This maybe a "so called rumour" site but the majority of posts on pprune are actually factual rather than based on a rumour. I should imagine that 99% of the posts on here are not actually based on rumours. But then your always going to get certain individuals who thrive on rumours, I personally are not one of those

I'm not disputing stewyb, quite the contrary as he is without doubt one of best on pprune with regards to Southampton Airport in a similar fashion to TCAS FAN.

FYI.... I've been posting on pprune for over 12 years, probably more, I don't need anyone telling me that I should post elsewhere just because I appreciate the facts over persistent rumours.

I along with everyone else who has an interest in the development of Southampton Airport wants to see EasyJet expand from the airport. But the endless questions around EasyJet and when will they announce routes is like a kid in the back seat asking over and over again "are we there yet dad".

[Rivet Joint]

"If you don't like it you can post elsewhere" 🤔

I don't think that you are in any position to inform me of that. This maybe a "so called rumour" site but the majority of posts on pprune are actually factual rather than based on a rumour. I should imagine that 99% of the posts on here are not actually based on rumours. But then your always going to get certain individuals who thrive on rumours, I personally are not one of those

I'm not disputing stewyb, quite the contrary as he is without doubt one of best on pprune with regards to Southampton Airport in a similar fashion to TCAS FAN.

FYI.... I've been posting on pprune for over 12 years, probably more, I don't need anyone telling me that I should post elsewhere just because I appreciate the facts over persistent rumours.

I along with everyone else who has an interest in the development of Southampton Airport wants to see EasyJet expand from the airport. But the endless questions around EasyJet and when will they announce routes is like a kid in the back seat asking over and over again "are we there yet dad".

The issue with this thread is resident posters take the bait from posters from other threads who have no interest in having reasoned debate, just antagonising people. LTNman has been trolling for months now and is still getting responses. The clue is in his username guys. Either stop replying to these people or this thread will stay a constant argument.

[TCAS FAN]

The issue with this thread is resident posters take the bait from posters from other threads who have no interest in having reasoned debate, just antagonising people. LTNman has been trolling for months now and is still getting responses. The clue is in his username guys. Either stop replying to these people or this thread will stay a constant argument.

Had arrived at the same conclusion in respect of the mentioned antagonist, now considered as CVTman which will accordingly result in no further responses from me.

[SKOJB]

Marlhill Copse back on the agenda next week with the council, recommendation is to approve with limited remediation to select trees. Assume if passed this will improve runway declared distances

[TCAS FAN]

Marlhill Copse back on the agenda next week with the council, recommendation is to approve with limited remediation to select trees. Assume if passed this will improve runway declared distances

Will not have any impact on the runway declared distances, but, if the selected ones are the worst Type A Chart penetrating obstacles then their removal could further improve the increased take-off weights brought about by provision of the runway extension, ie more passengers or range. It would then be the proverbial icing on the cake.

[Pain in the R's]

Seeing the runway practically kisses the M27 how about traffic lights to stop high sided vehicles passing when there is a Easyjet departure or maybe brushing the tree tops is enough?

[rustythumb]

If that's not said in jest, that is a terrible idea...

[stewyb]

Seeing the runway practically kisses the M27 how about traffic lights to stop high sided vehicles passing when there is a Easyjet departure or maybe brushing the tree tops is enough?

Your usual knowledgeable reply

[TCAS FAN]

Seeing the runway practically kisses the M27 how about traffic lights to stop high sided vehicles passing when there is a Easyjet departure or maybe brushing the tree tops is enough?

This is a one shot response before you join LTNman, aka CVTman, in the troll folder.

International survey standards require that if you have a road or railway passing close to a runway to allow for mobile obstacles that may be using it, the surveyor must add 4.8 metres to its level. Hence the reason why the M27 to the south is in a cutting and accordingly does not show as "mobile obstacles" on the ICAO Type A charts.Hence no traffic lights required - simples!

"Brushing the tree tops" clearly shows a total ignorance of how obstacles are operationally managed, not worth causing any more wear to my keyboard.

[Dropoffcharge]

Traffic lights on the M27??........yeah good one!!!

[Asturias56]

do you think anyone would stop??

[TheSpiddalKid]

do you think anyone would stop??
That's probably where the follow-up reply would be to employ snipers on the motorway gantries to take out anyone who didn't obey the traffic lights.

[LTNman]

What is that black area at the end of the runway. Is it some sort of arrester system?

https://i.imgur.com/mr5MTBq.jpg

[Expressflight]

Presumably it's the 90m x 74m RESA but whether it has an 'arrester' surface I don't know.

I'm a little surprised that this very minimum RESA length that SOU has is permitted considering what lies in the overrun path. Grandfather rights presumably.

[Sotonsean]

Yes it is a ground arrester system, it was put in place in 1994/95.

[TCAS FAN]

Yes it is a ground arrester system, it was put in place in 1994/95.

After an idiot in a Citation tried to save time/money while positioning in to do an outbound charter. Landed (very late) on RWY 20 with a tailwind on a wet runway and ended up on the M27. We must be close to the anniversary of the idiot's antics?

With the arrestor bed in place it was put to good use some years later when a Seneca, landing in fog well below weather minima, saw the runway very late, decided to go for it and ended up in the arrestor bed. Fortunately for SOU minimal damage, the Seneca didn't do so well!

[TCAS FAN]

There hasn't been any progress updates on the airport's extension APP since the 25 May. With the fine weather that we are currently experiencing surely it wouldn't be too difficult to get some drone footage of the current status of the runway extension.

Four new photos have appeared dated 20 June. While showing that progress is being made, I feel that pictures of cable ducts falls short of the public's expectations of what was going to be shown? Where are some drone or other aerial shots of the construction site?

[TCAS FAN]

Four new photos have appeared dated 20 June. While showing that progress is being made, I feel that pictures of cable ducts falls short of the public's expectations of what was going to be shown? Where are some drone or other aerial shots of the construction site?

Now understood that something more exciting may appear next week?

[Sotonsean]

After an idiot in a Citation tried to save time/money while positioning in to do an outbound charter. Landed (very late) on RWY 20 with a tailwind on a wet runway and ended up on the M27. We must be close to the anniversary of the idiot's antics?

With the arrestor bed in place it was put to good use some years later when a Seneca, landing in fog well below weather minima, saw the runway very late, decided to go for it and ended up in the arrestor bed. Fortunately for SOU minimal damage, the Seneca didn't do so well!

I didn't really want to bring up the incident concerning the Citation for obvious reasons in regard to the certain individual who I had replied to 😉

On another note, I've just viewed the totally underwhelming images on the runway extension APP 🙄

[TCAS FAN]

........
On another note, I've just viewed the totally underwhelming images on the runway extension APP 🙄

Watch this space, possibly something more exciting/revealing coming next week?

[Asturias56]

someone has started another Southampton thread - - ignore!!!

[SKOJB]

EZY have released flights up to early June ‘24 but nothing showing for GLA/BFS beyond winter season. Thought these new routes were year round?

[stewyb]

EZY have released flights up to early June ‘24 but nothing showing for GLA/BFS beyond winter season. Thought these new routes were year round?

Maybe a slot filler during the quieter winter months and better airframe usage to warmer climes in summer (however they may still be loaded over the coming days and weeks)

[GayFriendly]

It seems that EZY is very much a work in progress and that they've put a schedule out for sale to catch up with TUI and Jet2 who've had S24 flights on sale for a while

All BHX flights loaded are scheduled as W pattern (as now) with no schedules for the 3 based aircraft. So it's definitely a work in progress with many changes to come that will hopefully include SOU.

[toledoashley]

It seems that EZY is very much a work in progress and that they've put a schedule out for sale to catch up with TUI and Jet2 who've had S24 flights on sale for a while

All BHX flights loaded are scheduled as W pattern (as now) with no schedules for the 3 based aircraft. So it's definitely a work in progress with many changes to come that will hopefully include SOU.

Remember S24 has been on sale with easyJet holidays for quite a while, just not flight only (whereas LS/TOM offer flight only at the same time)

[Albert Hall]

Does anyone know what is happening with the Eastern Orly service? The schedule-keeping has been incredibly poor of late - most days 90 minutes off schedule and a few six-hour delays in the last week. They seem to be using a different aircraft for the SOU-ORY than does the inbound ORY-SOU every day so the outbound SOU-ORY isn't as badly affected. Everyone has bad days but it's looking like every day is a bad day for Eastern on this route?

[stewyb]

Does anyone know what is happening with the Eastern Orly service? The schedule-keeping has been incredibly poor of late - most days 90 minutes off schedule and a few six-hour delays in the last week. They seem to be using a different aircraft for the SOU-ORY than does the inbound ORY-SOU every day so the outbound SOU-ORY isn't as badly affected. Everyone has bad days but it's looking like every day is a bad day for Eastern on this route?

No idea on scheduling although understand loads have been very poor. Needs EZY/AF Hop to take it on!

[Asturias56]

the words "eastern" and "schedule" shouldn't be used in the same sentence

[SWBKCB]

Needs EZY/AF Hop to take it on!

Maybe it's worth considering why they haven't?

[stewyb]

Maybe it's worth considering why they haven't?

AF Hop are currently code sharing so would like to see them take it on, however maybe to CDG. By utilising better worldwide connections and with stronger brand marketing it would definitely give it a better chance of success as it once was with BE

[RW20]

Maybe it's worth considering why they haven't?
Not viable in the present Economic climate,Lets hope Easy come out with some Summer routes,the airport needs them!

[TCAS FAN]

AF Hop are currently code sharing so would like to see them take it on, however maybe to CDG. By utilising better worldwide connections and with stronger brand marketing it would definitely give it a better chance of success as it once was with BE

Their predecessor Brit Air did CDG for many years with the AT42 then CRJ, loads appeared good with many interlining through CDG to AF long haul. Has something changed to prevent this in future?

[Jerbourg]

No idea on scheduling although understand loads have been very poor. Needs EZY/AF Hop to take it on!

The general public don't know Eastern Airways, they generally search out the big names for flights.

[Asturias56]

"The general public don't know Eastern Airways"

Those that do try desperately to find someone else...............

[SouthernAlliance]

Now understood that something more exciting may appear next week?

Still nothing from the airport with latest being 3 pics on 20th, comms on the extension has been awful!

[TCAS FAN]

Still nothing from the airport with latest being 3 pics on 20th, comms on the extension has been awful!

I did say "may", maybe I should have said "mañana" instead of "next week"?

It is coming - inshallah!

Totally agree on the updates thus far. After all the hype over the successful result of the protracted planning consent process and the production of the app, a totally underwhelming update process.

[Asturias56]

TBH I think the market for pictures of people pouring concrete is limited - even on here

[LTNman]

I was thinking the same but I was waiting for someone to say so first. Maybe this will help for those that need a fix with this artist’s impression of the runway work.
https://i.imgur.com/I193XL4.jpg

[RW20]

TBH I think the market for pictures of people pouring concrete is limited - even on here

We all know this is going to be completed by mid August,but the more important issue is : Is there going to be announcements of possible Sun Flights 24?
Easy are rolling out Summer 24 details ,but no mention of SOU. In addition is there any news on Balken flights for 24?
The airport needs a boost of announcements to justify the extension.

[ATNotts]

We all know this is going to be completed by mid August,but the more important issue is : Is there going to be announcements of possible Sun Flights 24?
Easy are rolling out Summer 24 details ,but no mention of SOU. In addition is there any news on Balken flights for 24?
The airport needs a boost of announcements to justify the extension.
Its a bit late for justification with the money committed and spades in the ground.

If 2024 isn't a tough one for all airports reliant on leisure travel (and thats the overwhelming majority aside LHR and LCY) I will be surprised.

The SOU runway is an investment for the long term not 12 months and surely over time will reap benefits for the airport.

[LTNman]

Compared to the cost of construction and the additional traffic the investment will actually generate it will indeed be a long process to recoup the money but airport management are convinced this is the way forward for a successful airport. Who says length doesn’t matter?

[stewyb]

Compared to the cost of construction and the additional traffic the investment will actually generate it will indeed be a long process to recoup the money but airport management are convinced this is the way forward for a successful airport. Who says length doesn’t matter?

The airports investment has already demonstrated an immediate effect as EZY has committed to 2 domestic routes, something that would never have happened pre-extension and remembering they entered SOU way back in 2017 (albeit EZS) with just one route. There is more to come!

[Sotonsean]

The airports investment has already demonstrated an immediate effect as EZY has committed to 2 domestic routes, something that would never have happened pre-extension and remembering they entered SOU way back in 2017 (albeit EZS) with just one route. There is more to come!

Although to be fair those two domestic routes that EZY have "committed" to appear to be for winter 2023/24 and seasonal only.

According to posts on some other threads they are not continuing into summer 2023. Regarding the domestic routes, EZY are more than likely using spare aircraft capacity during the low season for these particular flights.

Obviously I would like to see EZY maintain these domestic flights to Southampton but not to the detriment of Loganair.

I'm not sure that the runway extension would have necessarily prompted EZY to "commit" with immediate effect" as regards to domestic flights. With the schedules for 2024 slowly being added by EZY we might know more in the coming weeks.

Regards Balkan.

It had been mentioned in the travel media a few weeks ago that Balkan Holidays were considering adding Southend and Southampton for summer 2024. Although the Balkan Holidays website doesn't appear to show Southampton as a departure airport for summer 2024.

The fact that Balkan Holidays had been quoted as saying that they were considering Southampton for summer 2024 can only be positive. If Balkan Holidays do indeed add Southampton as a departure airport again then hopefully at some point we might even see a resumption of BH Air. BH Air previously flew from Varna to Southampton on behalf of their parent company Balkan Holidays.

[RW20]

Will not have any impact on the runway declared distances, but, if the selected ones are the worst Type A Chart penetrating obstacles then their removal could further improve the increased take-off weights brought about by provision of the runway extension, ie more passengers or range. It would then be the proverbial icing on the cake.
It has been reported that the airport has had some rejections by Southampton council regarding Marhill Copse on trees that need lopping ,however its not clear if some trees have been granted to have limited work done?
Lets hope that any granted work allows for better take off weights!

[stewyb]

It has been reported that the airport has had some rejections by Southampton council regarding Marhill Copse on trees that need lopping ,however its not clear if some trees have been granted to have limited work done?
Lets hope that any granted work allows for better take off weights!

Don’t believe these latest approvals and rejections have a material effect on overflying. This was only minimal removal of overhanging branches to adjacent properties

[LTNman]

The airports investment has already demonstrated an immediate effect as EZY has committed to 2 domestic routes, something that would never have happened pre-extension and remembering they entered SOU way back in 2017 (albeit EZS) with just one route. There is more to come!

So do these routes require a runway extension when Geneva doesn’t? I doubt it

[SKOJB]

So do these routes require a runway extension when Geneva doesn’t? I doubt it

Begs the question then why has it taken 6 years to add them, extension almost complete and routes are added, coincidence?

[Groundloop]

Begs the question then why has it taken 6 years to add them, extension almost complete and routes are added, coincidence?

Probably nothing to do with the extension. Winter 22/23 Ezy did some odd domestic routes as they had aircraft spare with less flying to Europe in the winter. It will be the same next winter. Don't hold your breath for the routes to operate next summer.

[cavokblues]

Depends if it's a precursor to a larger announcement to determine if it is coincidental or not. Technically, these flights could have operated from the old runway.

[LTNman]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/23624427.southampton-airport-loses-bid-work-trees-marlhill-copse/

Southampton Airport loses bid to work on trees at Marlhill Copse
Seven trees at Marlhill Copse - owned by Southampton (https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/district/southampton/) Airport - have been protected by Southampton City Council.

Late last year a planning inspector dismissed an appeal lodged by the airport after an application to fell 91 trees was rejected by the city council.


The fact that they wanted to fell 91 trees but can’t would suggest it will affect take off limits. If not why plan to do it? Now with preservation orders served this must be the icing on the cake for SOU

[Albert Hall]

New standards being set on the Eastern Orly service inbound to SOU today - a mere ten hours late.

[SKOJB]

New standards being set on the Eastern Orly service inbound to SOU today - a mere ten hours late.

Constant delays and loads struggling to hit double figures, won’t last!

[RW20]

New standards being set on the Eastern Orly service inbound to SOU today - a mere ten hours late.
This is completely unacceptable,this service is letting the airport down big time!
Theres got be a an airline that can operate a substainable service other then Eastern!

[SKOJB]

This is completely unacceptable,this service is letting the airport down big time!
Theres got be a an airline that can operate a substainable service other then Eastern!

when were eastern ever considered an airline lol

[SWBKCB]

Theres got be a an airline that can operate a substainable service other then Eastern!

Such as? Ever wonder why it's Eastern operating the service and not somebody else?

[Rivet Joint]

I note the 9:55 Paris flight has just arrived at 19:34. Only a 10 hour delay. Truly woeful airline. It’s not like they have a lot of routes to fly either.

[TCAS FAN]

I did say "may", maybe I should have said "mañana" instead of "next week"?

It is coming - inshallah!

Totally agree on the updates thus far. After all the hype over the successful result of the protracted planning consent process and the production of the app, a totally underwhelming update process.

Some updates on the app, asphalt now going down. It appears that the project may be on, or even ahead, of schedule. My money still on the extension, and the improved declared distances being available for use by early September.

That all said, not the exciting additions to the app that I had come to understand may appear. Time will tell.

[RW20]

Any views on Marhill copse tree latest work?

[stewyb]

Any views on Marhill copse tree latest work?

As mentioned previous, this application was for routine tree works to adjacent properties and branch reduction, nothing more. Would imagine the main fight is still to be fought by the airport

[RW20]

The daily echo says "Southampton Airport loses bid to work on trees at Copse" on Sunday,seems that airport needs to get this sorted out inline with the runway works.
​​​​​​

[LTNman]

Last year Southampton Airport lost at appeal their plans to fell 97 frees. Now seven trees have been protected by Southampton City Council with tree preservation orders. You would think this would have been sorted out before work started on the extension, as it is looking like those trees are going to reduce take off performance.

[TCAS FAN]

It has been reported that the airport has had some rejections by Southampton council regarding Marhill Copse on trees that need lopping ,however its not clear if some trees have been granted to have limited work done?
Lets hope that any granted work allows for better take off weights!

In line with what I have previously posted the runway extension project and Marhill Copse trees are two completely separate issues. Hopefully when preparing a business case for the extension, and any related discussions with prospective operators, AGS considered, and discussed, the extended declared distances resulting from the extension as a standalone issue.

As previously mentioned, if any meaningful reduction of tree height in Marhill Copse is eventually possible this may further improve take-off performance, to use my term it would then be the icing on the cake - not the cake itself!

[rog747]

Trees --- as in, not cut down....

Not the best news I agree TCAS_FAN, for any Flight Planning prospectus for the future Ops of SOU, with, or even without the new extra runway length.

[Sotonsean]

Some recent images of the runway extension showing good progress in the construction.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/710x947/download_1__a26771bc88e3ff3688c0770beaf32b2a8aa772fc.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1262x947/download_827e41e4764a7e170cc77bf4050e5a87f7c512e4.png

[LTNman]

Looks like tarmac and not concrete. Strange choice for a new runway extension. Tarmac on concrete yes.

More likely the photos are of resurfacing the existing runway?

[Sotonsean]

Looks like tarmac and not concrete. Strange choice for a new runway extension. Tarmac on concrete yes.

More likely the photos are of resurfacing the existing runway?

If you look at the second photo you will see vehicles and construction equipment to the left of the photo. That is the end of the actual runway with the runway extension being laid as part of the main photo.

Not sure what they are doing as I'm not in any position to comment but I'm sure others will know more.

I've said it before but it's a shame that the entire runway couldn't be resurfaced after the extension is completed and of course the construction of the belated northern taxiway.

When does "phase 2" actually commence 🤔

[TCAS FAN]

If you look at the second photo you will see vehicles and construction equipment to the left of the photo. That is the end of the actual runway with the runway extension being laid as part of the main photo.

Not sure what they are doing as I'm not in any position to comment but I'm sure others will know more.

I've said it before but it's a shame that the entire runway couldn't be resurfaced after the extension is completed and of course the construction of the belated northern taxiway.

When does "phase 2" actually commence 🤔

Beware of the troll lurking on this thread.

I can possibly offer an answer to the issue of concrete.

The original runway surface is concrete, subsequently overlaid with asphalt.

I do not have any civil engineering qualifications but, having seen a similar situation at another airport that I worked at, there is apparently a constructional issue trying to join different paved surfaces, possibly related to expansion characteristics. Consequently I would speculate that the base course of the extension joins concrete to concrete, to then be overlaid with asphalt.

[TCAS FAN]

[QUOTE=Sotonsean;11463654

…………

When does "phase 2" actually commence 🤔[/QUOTE]

Haven’t heard any speculation on Phase 2 start. However, if EZY increase their flights the decision could be made sooner rather than later.

As with all LCCs EZY are going to be looking for quick turnarounds. They are not going to be impressed by delays, either to start-up clearance or sat at Hold B1, caused by the increased time needed to accommodate a backtrack of 20.

[LTNman]

Seeing that Easyjet can queue for a considerable amount of time at both Gatwick and Luton I don’t see it as a problem. 30 minutes to get airborne from pushback is not unheard of at Luton.

[RW20]

Seeing that Easyjet can queue for a considerable amount of time at both Gatwick and Luton I don’t see it as a problem. 30 minutes to get airborne from pushback is not unheard of at Luton.
Down the road at Bournemouth there are concerns about handling the increase in pax,it seems they are going from strength to strength!
They quote that SOU cant handle 737-800 even with the extendsion!,so Im hoping the Easy come in soon rather then later as TUi and Ryanair up there game!

[rog747]

Down the road at Bournemouth there are concerns about handling the increase in pax,it seems they are going from strength to strength!
They quote that SOU cant handle 737-800 even with the extension!,so I'm hoping the Easy come in soon rather then later as TUi and Ryanair up there game!


You may be pleased to relish in the news that BOH cannot cope now with 3 x 737's leaving around the same time - Next summer there maybe 5 based 737's...

Hurn cannot cope (https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/23627864.bournemouth-airport-passengers-miss-ryanair-flight-venice/)

[SWBKCB]

Nice problem to have - obviously the airlines involved are happy.

[stewyb]

Down the road at Bournemouth there are concerns about handling the increase in pax,it seems they are going from strength to strength!
They quote that SOU cant handle 737-800 even with the extendsion!,so Im hoping the Easy come in soon rather then later as TUi and Ryanair up there game!

routes for next summer to be announced, not sure when!

[TCAS FAN]

Looking forward to what could happen with the extension. Taking a simplistic view after looking at some takeoff performance data for the A320 Neo. At max takeoff weight required takeoff run is 1951 metre, with under 150 metres less than this available at SOU. Max range at max takeoff weight 3500 NM.

With TFS under 1600 NM from SOU, maybe an option? A lot of other prospective destinations close to or less than this.

[SWBKCB]

With TFS under 1600 NM from SOU, maybe an option? A lot of other prospective destinations close to or less than this.

How many fit in with EZY's swing towards "Easy Holidays"?

[RW20]

routes for next summer to be announced, not sure when!
You continue to state this,but there is no evidence this will happen

[rog747]

Looking forward to what could happen with the extension. Taking a simplistic view after looking at some takeoff performance data for the A320Neo. At max takeoff weight required takeoff run is 1951 metre, with under 150 metres less than this available at SOU. Max range at max takeoff weight 3500 NM.

With TFS under 1600 NM from SOU, maybe an option?

A lot of other prospective destinations close to or less than this.


Thank you, your simplistic, but quite accurate summary (as always) is exactly what the SOU Ops Director announced to the Press well over 2 years ago.

This means, as he explained, opens up our little Airport for the larger Aircraft ''that currently use SOU'' (ie: the Easyjet Switzerland 186 seat A320neo) to be able to perform the longer routes with an economical Payload.

The Clearway/Obstacle (Trees issue) remains to be seen if that impacts Take Off Performance Data as you mentioned last week.

With your 'sums' noted above then it may allow almost any route, to be flown non-stop to/from SOU with the Easyjet Group's Overseas based aircraft.


TFS is sadly not an Easyjet Europe Base, but there are many of the Med and Euro Zone Airports that could be attractive at SOU, such as ALC, AGP, FAO, VCE, NCE.

Easyjet Switzerland also have large base at Basel, as well as at Geneva. Basel was always popular with the Brits.

Easyjet UK have bases at EDI GLA LPL BFS.


As discussed many times, I do not though, see an Easyjet UK SOU Base opening anytime soon.

Lunch on me if I am proved wrong lol!



Replying to two Quotes from SWBKCB

1/

''How many fit in with EZY's swing towards "Easy Holidays?''


Well, plenty TBH,

but, here's the thing ----

Did a search on EasyJet holidays for a week in August for Austria (surely think Lakes and Mountains?) flying from LGW and BRS.

All I got was Salzburg city centre Hotel offers, no resorts.

Did the same search for Switzerland and just got Geneva city centre, again NO Resort holidays.

Plus this popped up - Sorry, we have limited holidays for your search.

So, I toddle off and search Jet2, TUI, and Inghams Holidays, and get a huge range of Resort package holidays.


This is where Easyjet cannot compete yet with the Holiday Majors.

EasyJet only launched its own Holiday arm in 2019 joining ATOL and ABTA, and as such are still new to the ''Beaches''.

They do not IMO yet have the empathy of selling Package Holidays, nor are they the 'Go To' Tour Operator for many folk.


SWBKCB

2/

''Nice problem to have - obviously the airlines involved are happy''.


(Relates to BOH airport chaos newspaper report last week over short staffing)


Well, TUI Airways at BOH are not happy, nor are their passengers, nor are Ryanair's passengers.

Folk will not tolerate this for long.

As mentioned already, BOH is creaking with the extra flights this year, so we now hope that BOH Airport will address their Staff issues, especially in light of the Summer 2024 expansion.

[stewyb]

You continue to state this,but there is no evidence this will happen

Just as you continue to state the necessity for S24 flying by EZY. Of course there is no evidence as yet and won’t be until the airline releases route info :ok:

[SWBKCB]

My point about the swing to Easy Holidays came from looking at the list of destinations for the BHX base, which have been made available for sale via Easy Holidays before they have been put on general sale. Many of these are in Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt - how many of these are viable from an extended SOU? I agree with rog747 that an EZY base is unlikely initially, but surely a based operator must be a long term objective?

With regard to the BOH issues, having too many passengers is a nicer problem to have than too few - if you look at the success of MAN/LBA/LTN/STN/LGW, perhaps we over emphasise the airport experience. If both TUI and RYR are looking to base additional a/c they most be happy with the assurances they have received that the airport can cope?

[rog747]

My point about the swing to Easy Holidays came from looking at the list of destinations for the BHX base, which have been made available for sale via Easy Holidays before they have been put on general sale. Many of these are in Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt - how many of these are viable from an extended SOU? I agree with rog747 that an EZY base is unlikely initially, but surely a based operator must be a long term objective?

With regard to the BOH issues, having too many passengers is a nicer problem to have than too few - if you look at the success of MAN/LBA/LTN/STN/LGW, perhaps we over emphasise the airport experience. If both TUI and RYR are looking to base additional a/c they most be happy with the assurances they have received that the airport can cope?

Many thanks for your well balanced reasons, and response, cheers.

I guess I add my tuppences quite often, as the IT Package Holiday and Holiday Airline Industry was my Career from around 1971, and also that Sales and Ops from Regional UK Airports was abit of my forte too.

Of course the Holidays market has changed beyond a shadow of anything that we saw in the 1970's -> early 2000's
(around the time when the Low Cost Airline, and the do-it-yourself thing really took off).

Major Tour Operators that are left who still actually take whole plane charter series - >> TUI, Sunvil, Mark Warner, and maybe a couple more --
The Gambia Experience still have a weekly LGW-BJL in the winter with Titan or Enter Air, and Corsica Places do a summer charter STN to Calvi.
Inghams still have their own SKI charters, and maybe still have some Tyrol summer charters for SZG and/or INN, but I am way out of the loop on that since Flybe went under.
Verona was a very popular one for SOU and BRS charters in the summer for the Italian Lakes.
The Charter flights to Sardinia for Sardatur Holidays and Sardinian Places who are UK based Sardinia specialist tour operators of long standing and high repute are long gone.
Olympic Holidays no longer charter their own planes to Greece and the Greek Islands.

TUI Holidays, as you know, charter BACF from SOU to PMI twice weekly, and that sets to continue for S24.


Lastly,
re your comment over the recent (BOH) airport experience.

It is the very core of the ''airport experience'' that has sold Holidays for the Regional customers.
Not so the Low-Cost punters, the common denominator there is how much they can cram in for a 2 week holiday in an overstuffed carry-on bag, without having to pay for any Luggage at all.

The expansion of both TUI and Ryanair at BOH is most welcome -
But I add the caveat that BOH Management needs to get their heads around that they are no longer a little airfield up the country lane from Hurn Village with just one or two charter flights a day, sent off personally by Sir Peter Bath (All rather splendid though, happy days indeed)

When I flew from SOU on BACF a couple of times last summer to JMK and PMI (Just when we had all been let off the lead) even SOU was maxed out on the SAT and SUN early morning peaks -
BUT they managed rather well, with only 300 out of the 400 staff actually planned for, and needed overall to run the season's operations.
BACF would have a PMI JMK FAO and/or IBZ AGP and EDI and a Limoges/Bergerac.
Up to 7 EMB departures, all going out between 8am and 10am,
plus the Blue Islands, Aurigny, KLM, Loganair and Eastern flights too.

My only negative, was that the BACF's all only had one set of boarding steps ISO two -
This meant no pax boarding until the refuelling was finished - that then caused boarding delays, and missed slots.
(We missed out slot into JMK and had to sit on the ramp for almost an hour)
I fed this back to the BA Crew (who had already noted this each weekend on their flight reports) and to the SOU's Ops Director and he said he was not aware of this.
But in his favour, he did say he would take it up with the Handling Agents as a matter of importance.

Do we have 2 sets of steps on the BACF's this summer?


Best R.

[Asturias56]

you don't have to put in large bits of BOLD text - it's very distracting and conjures up thoughts of green ink................

[rog747]

you don't have to put in large bits of BOLD text - it's very distracting and conjures up thoughts of green ink................

Noted, and BOLD will be duly removed :)

I really wasn't marking your Homework - I do promise (That would be in Red Ink) LOL.

[Asturias56]

I gave up on worrying about what people thought about me about 4 days after signing up for PPrune and reading the Australian section.......................... no holds bared on there :eek:

[rog747]

I gave up on worrying about what people thought about me about 4 days after signing up for PPrune and reading the Australian section........no holds barred on there :eek:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x400/mv5bmtu0odk4mtu1n15bml5banbnxkftztcwodcxotuwmg_v1__fa2dc70f5 ee972430459f9c757dbc02e38db4240.jpg

Oh yes, a right proper Pommie Bash Bar Brawl on there...(ducks from flying Coopers Beer bottles)


The Southampton and Bournemouth delegations here are far more convivial :)

[TCAS FAN]

Some more additions to the runway extension app dated 6 & 7 July.

Not at all what I was expecting at this stage of the project. If I was a civil engineer maybe I could appreciate them.

Come on SOU there are plenty of local drone operators who could produce something far more impressive that would appeal to a much wider audience than the civil engineering community.

[LTNman]

All you need to know is that the anticipated completion date is August 17th according to the airport.

[Asturias56]

"that would appeal to a much wider audience"

you mean two people instead of just you? We don't need a live feed and running news on the extension

[TCAS FAN]

"that would appeal to a much wider audience"

you mean two people instead of just you? We don't need a live feed and running news on the extension

From the SOU website:

SOU Runway AppTo keep local neighbours up-to-date on the progress of the runway construction project, the airport has developed an app called SOU Runway. The app provides residents with an overview of the project, as well as updates on the works and any changes on site.
Apparently not just me + 1?

[Sotonsean]

From the SOU website:

SOU Runway AppTo keep local neighbours up-to-date on the progress of the runway construction project, the airport has developed an app called SOU Runway. The app provides residents with an overview of the project, as well as updates on the works and any changes on site.
Apparently not just me + 1?

I'm pleased that you responded in a mature manner regarding an extremely immature and ignorant comment 👍

[TCAS FAN]

I'm pleased that you responded in a mature manner regarding an extremely immature and ignorant comment 👍

Thanks for your support. As far as I am concerned we now have two trolls lurking on this thread, neither will provoke any further response from me.

[Sotonsean]

Thanks for your support. As far as I am concerned we now have two trolls lurking on this thread, neither will provoke any further response from me.

HERE, HERE.

As much as I deslike the term "troll" I couldn't agree more with you regarding your comments. And we're assuming they are grown up if not mature individuals.

[TCAS FAN]

Some more additions to the runway extension app dated 6 & 7 July.

Not at all what I was expecting at this stage of the project. If I was a civil engineer maybe I could appreciate them.

Come on SOU there are plenty of local drone operators who could produce something far more impressive that would appeal to a much wider audience than the civil engineering community.

They've finally done it! A couple of drone aerial shots just added to the app. Looks great.

[RW20]

Great to see the extension in all its glory!
Looks like they are well advanced.
Fingers crossed for some announcement on airlines that will take advantage of the extended length( prehaps this autumn?)

​​​

[Asturias56]

I guess anyone who suggests we aren't interested in the minutiae of airport construction is "immature". It really is taking enthusiasm for one's local airport a bit far IMHO. Southampton's a nice , small quite convenient airport but it does get a lot of coverage on here.......... which is getting spotter -like.

For the record I think it's better than Gatwick and a lot better than Heathrow. Much the same as Bristol (but the railway station is a great advantage) or Birmingham. Hurn I really have limited experience of.

[RW20]

I guess anyone who suggests we aren't interested in the minutiae of airport construction is "immature". It really is taking enthusiasm for one's local airport a bit far IMHO. Southampton's a nice , small quite convenient airport but it does get a lot of coverage on here.......... which is getting spotter -like.

For the record I think it's better than Gatwick and a lot better than Heathrow. Much the same as Bristol (but the railway station is a great advantage) or Birmingham. Hurn I really have limited experience of.
​​​​​​In what way is SOU better then international giants like LHR,LGW or even BRS?
Its a great ,but small regional airport with good transport links that will be given a boost with the runway extension.

[SouthernAlliance]

Great to see the extension in all its glory!
Looks like they are well advanced.
Fingers crossed for some announcement on airlines that will take advantage of the extended length( prehaps this autumn?)

​​​

Yes I do find it strange that no one has committed to the extension yet, apart from a couple of EZY domestics, and would have expected maybe an airline to announce for Autumn/Winter

[SWBKCB]

Who do you have in mind?

Which airlines would be targets for SOU?

[SouthernAlliance]

Who do you have in mind?

Which airlines would be targets for SOU?

Wizz? think I read there is a large polish community in the Southampton/southern Hampshire area. Just a thought and maybe wrong

[LTNman]

Polish have been overtaken by Romanians with many Polish returning home.

In what way is SOU better then international giants like LHR,LGW or even BRS?
Its a great ,but small regional airport with good transport links that will be given a boost with the runway extension.



A small regional airport is always going to be a better experience than a big airport. Less stress for a start, passengers unlikely to get lost, less walking, less queuing etc. This was why Southend always won the best airport awards in passenger polls.

I visited Southampton many years ago and thought it was great, as it struck the right balance in those days. I assume nothing has changed but no doubt Southampton management would like to sweat the asset to its maximum to the detriment of the passenger experience.

[Asturias56]

Spot on LTNman - small airports are aimed at getting passengers through quickly whereas big ones are about revenue extraction, shopping, food courts, drop off charges, charges, more charges, extra charges (may be voluntary) and delay , delay , delay

[rustythumb]

I guess anyone who suggests we aren't interested in the minutiae of airport construction is "immature". It really is taking enthusiasm for one's local airport a bit far IMHO. Southampton's a nice , small quite convenient airport but it does get a lot of coverage on here.......... which is getting spotter -like.

For the record I think it's better than Gatwick and a lot better than Heathrow. Much the same as Bristol (but the railway station is a great advantage) or Birmingham. Hurn I really have limited experience of.

A bit derisory singling out Bournemouth as 'Hurn'.

[SotonFlightpath]

A bit derisory singling out Bournemouth as 'Hurn'.

I personally think the name of Hurn lends a certain amount of gravitas to the airport, really important airports are quite happy to be referred to by the names of the villages in which they are situated - Gatwick in Sussex and Heath Row (Heathrow) in what was Middlesex. Associating the airport with a provincial seaside town makes it sound a lot less important!

[SotonFlightpath]

Wizz? think I read there is a large polish community in the Southampton/southern Hampshire area. Just a thought and maybe wrong
The city of Southampton has been a stronghold of Polish residency since the late 1940s. I was at secondary school in the 1970s and we had several teachers who were the sons and daughters of the first wave of Polish immigrants into the Southampton area. So yes, with such unusually long-standing relationships between Poland and Southampton, once or twice weekly flights to Poland could be worth considering.

[stewyb]

As easyJet don’t serve this market, Wizz would probably do well once/twice weekly to Poland & Romania using the A320

[davidjohnson6]

Wizzair have just a single route from Bristol, 8 eastern Europe routes from Birmingham, 5 eastern Europe routes at Gatwick and a lot from Luton. Why would Wizz want to open *another* airport in southern England to serve this market and spread themselves even more thinly, along with incurring the costs of an extra airport in their network ?

[TCAS FAN]

I personally think the name of Hurn lends a certain amount of gravitas to the airport, really important airports are quite happy to be referred to by the names of the villages in which they are situated - Gatwick in Sussex and Heath Row (Heathrow) in what was Middlesex. Associating the airport with a provincial seaside town makes it sound a lot less important!

Agree, except that the Southampton could not be referred to as a "seaside town"..

All but a few hundred metres of the south end of the runway is within the Borough of Eastleigh, and until BAA and their preceding subsidiary pitched up it always was Southampton/Eastleigh Airport.

We don't have "Heathrow Intl" or "Gatwick Intl", what could be next "London Southampton"?

[LTNman]

Why would Wizz want to open *another* airport in southern England to serve this market and spread themselves even more thinly, along with incurring the costs of an extra airport in their network ?


They did it at Southend but then not for long. Lesson learnt?

[stewyb]

Wizzair have just a single route from Bristol, 8 eastern Europe routes from Birmingham, 5 eastern Europe routes at Gatwick and a lot from Luton. Why would Wizz want to open *another* airport in southern England to serve this market and spread themselves even more thinly, along with incurring the costs of an extra airport in their network ?

Because LTN/BHM/BRS are not in southern England. What’s to say that if they have a single route at BRS, they cannot serve the south coast on the same basis where there may be demand, your logic doesn’t stack up!

[RW20]

I think if wizz were interested in SOU to Poland/Romania they would have made it known on announcement of the extension.
There is a lot of speculation about routes that could be announced,but thats it!

[stewyb]

I think if wizz were interested in SOU to Poland/Romania they would have made it known on announcement of the extension.
There is a lot of speculation about routes that could be announced,but thats it!

Just throwing my own thoughts out there RW20 as you can appreciate. As mentioned previous, only bit of intel I do have is easyJet has more routes lined up for S24

[davidjohnson6]

What’s to say that if they have a single route at BRS, they cannot serve the south coast on the same basis where there may be demand, your logic doesn’t stack up!
Airports with just a single route at a low weekly frequency tend not to be very profitable for LCCs, particularly when there are good transport links to other airports in the network which encourages pax to use an alternate airport if their nearest airport is showing high fares. Ideally an LCC airline will want airports with plenty of flights per week to other destinations within their network - pick a few sample airports in Ryanair's or Southwest's networks and you'll see what I mean. I'm guessing that Bristol is probably just about hanging on as a Wizz destination, but it's certainly not looking healthy from the point of view of a Wizz accountant. Long term, Wizz needs to bulk up on BRS or consider dropping BRS or find some special case why BRS should be kept (e.g. pax are unusually willing to pay a high fare premium to use BRS)
If Bristol can support only a single Wizz route, I'm not particularly hopeful around SOU's chances of getting routes from Wizz in the immediate future

[LTNman]

As runway 20 already has a displaced threshold, would I be correct in assuming that the landing distance available will remain the same when the runway extension is opened?

[stewyb]

As runway 20 already has a displaced threshold, would I be correct in assuming that the landing distance available will remain the same when the runway extension is opened?

You are spot on and LDA on 20 remains the same

[TCAS FAN]

Reading in the Telegraph that the SOU drop-off charge has gone up to £6. Forget it, drop-off at Parkway Station for free and walk over.

Stopped using airport taxis years ago, walk over to Parkway for a much better deal.

[SWBKCB]

Reading in the Telegraph that the SOU drop-off charge has gone up to £6. Forget it, drop-off at Parkway Station for free and walk over.

Stopped using airport taxis years ago, walk over to Parkway for a much better deal.

Let's see how long that lasts if an LCC turns up :ok:

[TCAS FAN]

Let's see how long that lasts if an LCC turns up :ok:

Not going to change, there are far more daily commuters into London together with those going up-country that use Parkway than those using the airport.

[Expressflight]

You are spot on and LDA on 20 remains the same
The LDA on 20 will be the same as at SEN, which doesn't seem to cause any LoCo problems. Is the SOU runway grooved?

[TCAS FAN]

The LDA on 20 will be the same as at SEN, which doesn't seem to cause any LoCo problems. Is the SOU runway grooved?

According to the data I have LDA at max landing weight for A320 Neo is 1650M, surprisingly the same for a A320 is 1440M!

Yes the runway is grooved but they don’t work as well as they should due to a cross fall with drain gully on the east side. Water often sits in the gully, preventing the grooves from draining.

The issue of grooving has lost some of its importance due to new runway state reporting requirements that came in last November. The description “Damp” which did not incur a performance penalty is no longer used. Consequently what was Damp, with a change of surface colour, is now considered as “Wet” which could impose a performance penalty. Crazy!

[Dropoffcharge]

Reading in the Telegraph that the SOU drop-off charge has gone up to £6. Forget it, drop-off at Parkway Station for free and walk over.

A surprising comment from such a hardcore fan and advocate of SOU, either you want the airport to start making a profit or you don't.

[LTNman]

50% increase since the last increase just a year ago. Southampton Airport doing their bit to lower inflation.

https://www.southamptonairport.com/news/media-centre/2022/review-of-drop-off-facilities-at-southampton-airport/


A number of changes are being made to Express Drop Off facilities as part of a review at Southampton Airport. The Express Drop Off in fee will be set at £4 for 20 minutes from June 14, 2022.

[TCAS FAN]

A surprising comment from such a hardcore fan and advocate of SOU, either you want the airport to start making a profit or you don't.

Just trying to save the others some money. Look on it as a perk of thread readership.

The majority of Joe Public will probably remain oblivious.

[SWBKCB]

It'll be all over the social media and the local press as a "Money Saving Hack" ! :yuk:

[LTNman]

A surprising comment from such a hardcore fan and advocate of SOU, either you want the airport to start making a profit or you don't.


Most airports offer a free drop off at an airport car park with the inconvenience of a longer walk or a free bus to catch. Consider the station to be Southampton’s unpublished equivalent, as the cost of travelling through an airport will be a consideration for LCC passengers on a tight budget particularly those passengers where Southampton is one of many airports where they could travel from.

[stewyb]

Eastern has changed the ORY service to an early dep of 0630 and using a separate ATR72 to EMA/CWL. Also MAN goes x 2 daily on its return in Sept

[Albert Hall]

I think the jury is still out on whether MAN will return at all. A double daily service has been sitting in their system for ages, but on past form, it means it’s unlikely to happen!

[stewyb]

I think the jury is still out on whether MAN will return at all. A double daily service has been sitting in their system for ages, but on past form, it means it’s unlikely to happen!

Agreed and I believe Loganair has also applied for x 3 daily

[Sotonsean]

Agreed and I believe Loganair has also applied for x 3 daily

And I'm sure we all agree that we would much rather see Loganair operating 3 x daily on Southampton to Manchester rather than a totally unreliable service offered by Eastern Airways ☺️

Hopefully Air France at some point in the future will be resume their Paris CDG to Southampton service. There will be no Eastern Airways Southampton to Paris Orly service if that happens. Eastern Airways had every opportunity to expand from Southampton after the demise of Flybe (mark 1) and they totally blew it. They are totally unreliable, overpriced and a bad excuse for an airline. I've had several incidents involving Eastern Airways over the last two years and I'm definitely not a fan of the airline.

[RW20]

The sooner we have a reliable airline on the Paris service the better!
Clearly Eastern are not that airline,on a sparate matter loganair A 72 to Manchester would be a great move!

[SWBKCB]

Easy to slag off Eastern, but what is stopping Air France/Hop operating now?

[Diff Tail Shim]

Easy to slag off Eastern, but what is stopping Air France/Hop operating now?
no planes or people like everyone else?

[SWBKCB]

So a low priority, then? Maybe Eastern are SOU's level?

[Rivet Joint]

Reading in the Telegraph that the SOU drop-off charge has gone up to £6. Forget it, drop-off at Parkway Station for free and walk over.

Stopped using airport taxis years ago, walk over to Parkway for a much better deal.

It’s very telling the responses you have received from the usual suspects on this comment. It’s common knowledge locally that you drop off at the station and has been for years. I’m sure the same happens at all the other airports.

The fact that the usual suspects don’t know about this proves they are not local and are just trying to exploit any negative. Whilst they must have very sad little lives to hold a vendetta agains an inanimate object those of you that keep giving them bites to their bait are just as bad. You yourself said you wouldn’t be responding to the troll in Luton yet you continue to give him the attention he’s obviously crying out for.

Good news on the changes with Eastern but as others have said the sooner they are driven out of the airport the better. Also at what point do Logan drop the tagline scotlands airline? The more domestic flying they do in England the more daft if seems.

[LTNman]

LTNman wrote
Most airports offer a free drop off at an airport car park with the inconvenience of a longer walk or a free bus to catch. Consider the station to be Southampton’s unpublished equivalent, as the cost of travelling through an airport will be a consideration for LCC passengers on a tight budget particularly those passengers where Southampton is one of many airports where they could travel from.



Offended Rivet Joint replied.
It’s very telling the responses you have received from the usual suspects on this comment. It’s common knowledge locally that you drop off at the station and has been for years. I’m sure the same happens at all the other airports.

The fact that the usual suspects don’t know about this proves they are not local and are just trying to exploit any negative. Whilst they must have very sad little lives to hold a vendetta agains an inanimate object those of you that keep giving them bites to their bait are just as bad. You yourself said you wouldn’t be responding to the troll in Luton yet you continue to give him the attention he’s obviously crying out for.



Don't want to be rude but if you think my comments are Trollish then you have some complex issues, as it wasn't even a criticism but a statement of fact. Maybe your world just don't like simple facts? All very strange. Perhaps you could start why you think my comment was negative, as it is lost on me, as it wasn’t my intention.

Oh I forgot, you don’t reply to “trolls” so I guess we will never know.