Southampton-3

[bad bear]

as a local resident I have to say I like the airport just the way it is. I feel sure that extension or no extension the airport will continue just fine. looking forward to the French routes re starting soon .

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Why does the very survival of the airport depend on a marginal runway extension? SOU's core bread and butter will surely remain what it has done well with in recent years? That is one VERY constrained site very close to Gatwick. It is what it is and that's fine, there's nothing wrong in being a decent niche.

[Pain in the R's]

Why does the very survival of the airport depend on a marginal runway extension?


It doesn’t. I doubt the extra flights a longer runway would bring would cover the cost of the extension. It is not as if SOU has an abundance of spare stands.

[TCAS FAN]

According to a report on this evening’s BBC South Today a ruling has been given to indicate the EBC’s planning consent for the runway extension was lawful. Standby for an appeal?

[RW20]

According to a report on this evening’s BBC South Today a ruling has been given to indicate the EBC’s planning consent for the runway extension was lawful. Standby for an appeal?
As long as the anti expansion campaigners can get the financial help there will be a further appeal.
It's a waste of money,but further delays Im afraid,in the meantime airports recover and gain holiday routes!.

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-61557313

[TCAS FAN]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-61557313

Very disappointed with the report from the normally well informed BBC South Travel Correspondent Paul Clifton. He has done the airport no favours with:"It wants to be able to handle larger planes....." Thought and hoped that the previous airport operator's own goal of wanting the runway extension to accomodate "larger aircraft" was dead and burried to avoid playing into the tree huggers and anti airport lobbyists' hands.

Paul also then mentions Ryanair as a potential operator, don't think we'll ever see them at SOU.

[davidjohnson6]

What the airport corporate PR person says publicly as a reason for extending the runway.... and what the airport management intend privately may not be the same. It is the job of a journalist to be aware of this difference.

[TCAS FAN]

What the airport corporate PR person says publicly as a reason for extending the runway.... and what the airport management intend privately may not be the same. It is the job of a journalist to be aware of this difference.

Is not the term “off the record” relevant?

[Wycombe]

Very disappointed with the report from the normally well informed BBC South Travel Correspondent Paul Clifton. He has done the airport no favours with:"It wants to be able to handle larger planes....." Thought and hoped that the previous airport operator's own goal of wanting the runway extension to accomodate "larger aircraft" was dead and burried to avoid playing into the tree huggers and anti airport lobbyists' hands.

Paul also then mentions Ryanair as a potential operator, don't think we'll ever see them at SOU.
He's well informed on trains, but should do his homework or leave aviation alone I think.

I've tweeted him before that his words haven't helped SOU and to be fair he did respond, but only to say he has only a short time to try to articulate a complex issue, so has to do it in a way that Joe Public will understand

[willy wombat]

Why does the very survival of the airport depend on a marginal runway extension? SOU's core bread and butter will surely remain what it has done well with in recent years? That is one VERY constrained site very close to Gatwick. It is what it is and that's fine, there's nothing wrong in being a decent niche.
Unusual for you, SOE, to not be on the ball, but SOU is not very close to LGW - it’s 70/80 miles away. It is significantly closer to LHR.

[Rivet Joint]

It doesn’t. I doubt the extra flights a longer runway would bring would cover the cost of the extension. It is not as if SOU has an abundance of spare stands.

So the airport is just throwing it’s money down the drain according to you? Honestly, some people on here. Considering it’s owned by a pension fund, I can assure you they will have had to prove a business case for any investment so let’s leave it to the experts.

on a side note, I don’t know why the airport etc don’t make a point that larger planes are a good thing. For a start it could result in less flights. Rather than 4/5 flights a day with Logan it could be 2 with Easy. So less flights annoying residents. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if if A320Ns are quieter than the likes of ERJs. Maybe someone can fine the noise levels of various aircraft.

[Saabdriver1]

The market seems to want frequency though - I don't think the concept of replacing four flights a day with two bigger ones will strike a chord with many passengers.

And on the local noise levels, if they could sort out the bloody arrival routings onto R20 then that would be a good start. It can't help anyone.

[davidjohnson6]

Allowing bigger aircraft so 4 small aircraft can be turned into 2 larger aircraft as a way to reduce noise is the oldest airport trick in the book. Once you have a longer runway, those 2 large aircraft invariably turns into 4 large aircraft.

[SKOJB]

The point is however that the airport just don’t have the space for many larger aircraft. In the latest plans there are only 4 A320 size stands being made available so I think an operation like SEN have currently with EZY, ie based aircraft from the Med operating several times a week will be about your lot. Just don’t see where else they can put them all in the short term!

[TCAS FAN]

........And on the local noise levels, if they could sort out the bloody arrival routings onto R20 then that would be a good start. It can't help anyone.

If you are referring to what in my working days I referred to as a "Winchester 2 arrival", whereby you get to see Winchester twice due to the orbit to lose height, that hopefully is coming. However due to the tortuosly slow Airpace Change Proposal process (delayed by Covid 19) currently taking place it could be a year or more away. To the current airport owner's credit they are the first to put up the money to get it sorted, so maybe are serious about a long term future for the airport?

[shamrock7seal]

RIVET JOINT, the noise levels for the ERJ-145 are around 78.7db versus a classic Airbus A320 of 82.7db (according to a report by the points guy). I don't have data for an A320NEO.

[Rivet Joint]

RIVET JOINT, the noise levels for the ERJ-145 are around 78.7db versus a classic Airbus A320 of 82.7db (according to a report by the points guy). I don't have data for an A320NEO.

Just had a quick look and according to Airbus and Lufthansa the neo is around 50% quieter than the classic. If true then they could be quieter than the 50 seat RJs that these ignorant residents are fine with. I don’t blame the airport for trying to completely avoid the topic of larger aircraft as most people react before educating themselves nowadays. However, if it’s a fact that they are quieter then their argument falls away.

As to frequencies being preferable for business routes, that is a good point, but probably not post covid. Flexible working is the norm now and about time. Morning and evening flights to GLA, MAN, EDI etc would probably be fine.

[Rivet Joint]

If you are referring to what in my working days I referred to as a "Winchester 2 arrival", whereby you get to see Winchester twice due to the orbit to lose height, that hopefully is coming. However due to the tortuosly slow Airpace Change Proposal process (delayed by Covid 19) currently taking place it could be a year or more away. To the current airport owner's credit they are the first to put up the money to get it sorted, so maybe are serious about a long term future for the airport?

Don’t most airports operate in this way? Can’t say I have seen many flights fly straight into an airport without some form turn or loop.

[Saabdriver1]

TCAS FAN, thank you. Yes, it was the "Winchester Wheel" I meant. Rivet Joint, most airports do have a standard arrival routing which involves some type of traditional base leg onto finals. This is a full 360 orbit which is a time-wasting, fuel-burning, noise-generating pain in the a**e.

[TCAS FAN]

TCAS FAN, thank you. Yes, it was the "Winchester Wheel" I meant. Rivet Joint, most airports do have a standard arrival routing which involves some type of traditional base leg onto finals. This is a full 360 orbit which is a time-wasting, fuel-burning, noise-generating pain in the a**e.

The "Winchester 2" is only necessary due to a lack of controlled airspace to the north of the Solent CTA owing to the lower limit of Q41, which adjoins the CTA, being FL 65. Before the arrival of NATS. ATCOs could use discretion and offer a straight-in approach with what was then a Radar Advisory Service (now De-confliction). ATCO's discretion stopped by NATS with the result of many thousands of tonnes of fuel wasted and Co2 generated. Hopefully will be resolved if the current ACP is successful.

[Albert Hall]

Have Eastern just decided to take a holiday on SOU/MAN? Poster on another thread mentioned no flights last week but it seems
to be more than that - next available flight is 5 June and even that is at full fare only. Doubting that it’s nearly full, it suggests impending cancellation. What’s going on ?

[SKOJB]

Have Eastern just decided to take a holiday on SOU/MAN? Poster on another thread mentioned no flights last week but it seems
to be more than that - next available flight is 5 June and even that is at full fare only. Doubting that it’s nearly full, it suggests impending cancellation. What’s going on ?

The purple planes taking over?

[MARKEYD]

Not for the summer they haven’t

They can barely keep to the busy schedule here in Jersey that has just started
All there aircraft are fully committed

[brian_dromey]

The purple planes taking over?

I dont think they have any MAN routes at all. Not even BHD-MAN, which is one of their two crew bases.

[MARKEYD]

The purple planes taking over?

Sorry , thought you were talking about Blue Islands !

[Rusty Irish]

Ryanair won't go near SOU. Their focus on the south coast is BOH. They are not interested in the high charges at AGS airports. Ripped their aircraft and routes from GLA for that very reason.

[SWBKCB]

It wants to be able to handle larger planes, carrying more passengers. The type of planes used by EasyJet or Ryanair to take people on sunshine holidays to Mediterranean beaches.

This is the quote from the BBC analysis. Doesn't say Ryanair or EasyJet will be operating from SOU, just that the extended runway will be able to operate those types of aircraft

Just had a quick look and according to Airbus and Lufthansa the neo is around 50% quieter than the classic.

Living under an airport approach which see both Classis and NEO 320's, I'm reminded of the saying "Lies, damn lies and statistics..." :ok:

[SKOJB]

Ryanair won't go near SOU. Their focus on the south coast is BOH. They are not interested in the high charges at AGS airports. Ripped their aircraft and routes from GLA for that very reason.

Best news we’ve heard all day!

[Albert Hall]

Rusty Irish seems to have a particular vendetta against GLA and AGS. Ryanair did move its based aircraft out of GLA but still has a reasonable presence at both GLA and ABZ. Whether it could be more is a question for Ryanair and AGS - not everyone wants growth at any cost.

[RW20]

Best news we’ve heard all day!
​​​​​​Really?
​​​​The domestic schedule is constricting substantially,take Manchester for example ,there are now no flights from Southampton!,it wasn't long ago when there were multi departures !. Southampton PAX have been very disappointing ,looking at CAA April figure for example ,the airport is compared to all regional airports very depressed.
Its essential that the runway extension is started to allow Southampton to allow profitable larger aircraft to operate,without it the future of the airport is unsure.

[Flitefone]

https://twitter.com/seanm1997/status/1531893459329613825?s=21&t=TwnD-kyaBWdmg3exIQkmiQ

https://twitter.com/seanm1997/status/1531941310491414530?s=21&t=TwnD-kyaBWdmg3exIQkmiQ

with thanks to @Seanm1997 on Twitter

FF

[TCAS FAN]

From the Airport Expansion Opposition Southampton (AXO) website:

"Obviously we are very disappointed in the judge’s finding against the judicial review, though there remains the possibility of an appeal. Our main concern is for the changing climate and local people who will end up suffering a lot more aircraft noise. We call on the airport to genuinely engage with the people who will be affected, and to do everything they can to encourage airlines to use less noisy jets. We also call on them to be honest about flying’s damaging effects on the climate (which extend far beyond the ‘direct operations’ they are promising to make ‘net zero’) and the implausibility of ‘green’ aviation being available on a large enough scale in time to avert climate catastrophe.”

Only saying "possibility of an appeal" IMHO this might indicate the end of the road for any further anti runway extension lobbying. Can anyone indicate the time limit for lodging an appeal in respect of the Judicial Review decision? Have tried on line but have no been able to determine it.

[SKOJB]

From the Airport Expansion Opposition Southampton (AXO) website:

"Obviously we are very disappointed in the judge’s finding against the judicial review, though there remains the possibility of an appeal. Our main concern is for the changing climate and local people who will end up suffering a lot more aircraft noise. We call on the airport to genuinely engage with the people who will be affected, and to do everything they can to encourage airlines to use less noisy jets. We also call on them to be honest about flying’s damaging effects on the climate (which extend far beyond the ‘direct operations’ they are promising to make ‘net zero’) and the implausibility of ‘green’ aviation being available on a large enough scale in time to avert climate catastrophe.”

Only saying "possibility of an appeal" IMHO this might indicate the end of the road for any further anti runway extension lobbying. Can anyone indicate the time limit for lodging an appeal in respect of the Judicial Review decision? Have tried on line but have no been able to determine it.

‘In cases where permission for judicial review is refused by the High Court, the Appellant's Notice must be lodged within one week (7 days)’

[Rivet Joint]

From the Airport Expansion Opposition Southampton (AXO) website:

"Obviously we are very disappointed in the judge’s finding against the judicial review, though there remains the possibility of an appeal. Our main concern is for the changing climate and local people who will end up suffering a lot more aircraft noise. We call on the airport to genuinely engage with the people who will be affected, and to do everything they can to encourage airlines to use less noisy jets. We also call on them to be honest about flying’s damaging effects on the climate (which extend far beyond the ‘direct operations’ they are promising to make ‘net zero’) and the implausibility of ‘green’ aviation being available on a large enough scale in time to avert climate catastrophe.”

Only saying "possibility of an appeal" IMHO this might indicate the end of the road for any further anti runway extension lobbying. Can anyone indicate the time limit for lodging an appeal in respect of the Judicial Review decision? Have tried on line but have no been able to determine it.

Seems the penny has finally dropped for these idiots. What a shame they did not have the sense to engage with the airport from the start rather than wasting everyone’s time and a lot of money in the process.

That aside, this is great news for the airport and hopefully we will see works start very soon. It’s a shame they not also adding the northern taxi link whilst all the equipment is there though.

[stewyb]

No idea why a northern taxiway cannot be put down from Stand 14 to link the runway at the same time, seems bonkers to me when equipment will be on site!

[TCAS FAN]

No idea why a northern taxiway cannot be put down from Stand 14 to link the runway at the same time, seems bonkers to me when equipment will be on site!

Please excuse me banging on about it, subject of an ancient post of mine prior to Southampton-3 thread, have been there before when the runway was being re-surfaced, contractors and asphalt plant on site, engineer's estimated cost at the time, £40K! Has gone down in history as one of B****y Awful Airport's many SOU c***k ups, together with the Short Term Car Park eastern boundary (preventing Stand 8-11 development) and the Post Office building site (originally part of the airport site-Stand development and even a second Terminal?).

Give AGS credit, they appear to be doing all possible to grow the business, most unlike their predecessors.

[stewyb]

Please excuse me banging on about it, subject of an ancient post of mine prior to Southampton-3 thread, have been there before when the runway was being re-surfaced, contractors and asphalt plant on site, engineer's estimated cost at the time, £40K! Has gone down in history as one of B****y Awful Airport's many SOU c***k ups, together with the Short Term Car Park eastern boundary (preventing Stand 8-11 development) and the Post Office building site (originally part of the airport site-Stand development and even a second Terminal?).

Give AGS credit, they appear to be doing all possible to grow the business, most unlike their predecessors.

Agreed that AGS are doing all they can to improve the airport and this will finally come to fruition shortly. Mistakes have been made by previous owners and one of those was not adding a northern taxiway. Even now (before an extra 164m) you have a long backtrack for 20 departures and all arrivals on 02 are having to turn back on 37m width of runway to then exit at the mid point. Been told this is part of phase 2 developments although will most likely never be done!

[TCAS FAN]

Agreed that AGS are doing all they can to improve the airport and this will finally come to fruition shortly. Mistakes have been made by previous owners and one of those was not adding a northern taxiway. Even now (before an extra 164m) you have long backtracks for 20 departure and BA arrivals on 02 are having to turn back on 37m width of runway to then exit at the mid point. Things would be so much easier if a small piece of tarmac was laid down. Been told this is part of phase 2 developments although will most likely never be done!

Backtracks on 20 were, in my working days, a pain in the a**e. Agree the extra 164 metres will aggravate the condition.

Remember one of my more memorable backtracks, early on a Saturday morning with a Spanair MD83 about to turn on to the ILS, KLM UK ATR 72 at Hold B when I offered a line-up “MD83 at nine miles can you give me an expeditious backtrack (which they were normally very good at) and immediate take-off?” with a reply “Affirm”.

Decided to go for it, with an impressive backtrack resulting, cleared for immediate take-off, but then lined up and sat there, and sat there. No alternative but to cancel take-off and instruct the MD83 to “go around”. This resulted in a somewhat high decibel response which apparently didn’t go down well with Eastleigh residents that early on a Saturday morning.

That evening’s Southern Echo headline “Seconds from disaster”!

I kept my job, without criticism, although that KLM UK crew were temporarily off my Xmas card list! Appeared that the “cabin securred” call was awaited.

[Rivet Joint]

Agreed that AGS are doing all they can to improve the airport and this will finally come to fruition shortly. Mistakes have been made by previous owners and one of those was not adding a northern taxiway. Even now (before an extra 164m) you have a long backtrack for 20 departures and all arrivals on 02 are having to turn back on 37m width of runway to then exit at the mid point. Been told this is part of phase 2 developments although will most likely never be done!

Its definitely strange. Ok don’t throw in the works to create larger stands with the runway extension as that really would have been a red flag to the nimbys but the taxiway will help aircraft spending less time on the runway and noise for residents as a result. It’s already an issue with the fairly light traffic the airport sees. Even the arrivals that get in early leave late with the runway backtracking definitely being part of the problem. The taxiway is clearly shown in the latest master plan and hardly requires much tarmac being laid down. Seems a missed opportunity as it’s unlikely to be done in isolation.

[Sharklet_321]

Southampton will have a new runway length of 1,887m with the new extension.

Other airports in the UK with similar runway lengths:

INV 1,887m
NWI 1,841m
BLK 1,869m
SEN 1,856m
BHD 1,829m

Can't think of any others?

Interesting that they all have similar regional type services. This illustrates that the extension is not really a threat at all to BOH and both should be able to continue operating in a complimentary fashion to each other long into the future.

It's essential for SOU to get their extension done fast in order to prevent its existing operators from having to resort to payload penalties with wet/windy/hot conditions. It will unburden easyJet on GVA which at times operates with payload penalties; likewise Loganair with their ERJ-145's which at times have payload issues. I am unsure of any BA Cityflyer payload issues - I would doubt they have any since they operate from LCY with a runway length of just 1,508m!

[Jn14:6]

You have to remember that it is not just runway length that affects RTOW. There are several other factors, one of which is obstacle clearance, which is a significant factor for SOU.

[stewyb]

Southampton will have a new runway length of 1,887m with the new extension.

Other airports in the UK with similar runway lengths:

INV 1,887m
NWI 1,841m
BLK 1,869m
SEN 1,856m
BHD 1,829m

Can't think of any others?

Interesting that they all have similar regional type services. This illustrates that the extension is not really a threat at all to BOH and both should be able to continue operating in a complimentary fashion to each other long into the future.

It's essential for SOU to get their extension done fast in order to prevent its existing operators from having to resort to payload penalties with wet/windy/hot conditions. It will unburden easyJet on GVA which at times operates with payload penalties; likewise Loganair with their ERJ-145's which at times have payload issues. I am unsure of any BA Cityflyer payload issues - I would doubt they have any since they operate from LCY with a runway length of just 1,508m!

As has been mentioned previous, the airport would do well to attract EZY for next summer post extension using non based aircraft from their summer bases of PMI/AGP/FAO in order to test the water for suitability. This would most definitely effect BOH ops from a competition perspective so to assume otherwise is I think rather naive!

[Wycombe]

As has been mentioned previous, the airport would do well to attract EZY for next summer post extension using non based aircraft from their summer bases of PMI/AGP/FAO in order to test the water for suitability. This would most definitely effect BOH ops from a competition perspective so to assume otherwise is I think rather naive!

Indeed so, NWI has a Tui 738 based during the Summer, SEN had an EZY base (and has some EZY Med flights this Summer) and BHD formerly had a RYR base.

[Rusty Irish]

New operators particularly low cost aren't interested in SOU or any AGS airports. Don't believe me look at the lack of new routes coming out of them. What is SOU going to add that's sustainable and a good deal for an airline? Look at Ryanair's latest expansion today. Not one route from any of the three. BOH got something though, so did NCL so it's not just the big boys. SOU will maintain its usual British Isles and peak summer flights to holiday hot spots and that's it as long as the current lot run it.

[RW20]

New operators particularly low cost aren't interested in SOU or any AGS airports. Don't believe me look at the lack of new routes coming out of them. What is SOU going to add that's sustainable and a good deal for an airline? Look at Ryanair's latest expansion today. Not one route from any of the three. BOH got something though, so did NCL so it's not just the big boys. SOU will maintain its usual British Isles and peak summer flights to holiday hot spots and that's it as long as the current lot run it.
So are you saying that SOU will have very little return from the runway extension ,except perhaps no restrictions on adverse weather conditions( high temps) on existing aircraft operating?
If so then the small investment that is being implemented won't change things to any degree for the airport Expension and new destinations!

[stewyb]

So are you saying that SOU will have very little return from the runway extension ,except perhaps no restrictions on adverse weather conditions( high temps) on existing aircraft operating?
If so then the small investment that is being implemented won't change things to any degree for the airport Expension and new destinations!

The whole idea of the investment is to attract a LCC in addition to improving current ops and I’m certain this will happen, however on what scale and choice of destinations is yet unknown.

[LTNman]

Southampton will have a new runway length of 1,887m with the new extension.

Other airports in the UK with similar runway lengths:

INV 1,887m
NWI 1,841m
BLK 1,869m
SEN 1,856m
BHD 1,829m

It's essential for SOU to get their extension done fast in order to prevent its existing operators from having to resort to payload penalties with wet/windy/hot conditions. !

You mean like Easyjet did at Southend on those rare hot summer days when a stop en route was sometimes required? Then there were the divisions due to its CAT 1 ILS. Is Southampton CAT 1 both ends? Also is the 1887m available both ends?

[RW20]

SOU is cat 1 ILS only on 20, 02 has poor landing aids with RNAV at best giving a DH at 500feet!
Nowhere near the ILS on both ends of Southend runway!
I'm sure TCAS FAN will give us a definitive comparison of both airports runway .I believe however 02 runway t/o /landing distance is not enhanced by the 20 extension!
Again limited improvement to SOU route development,more improvement to existing load factors in adverse runway conditions.

[Rivet Joint]

New operators particularly low cost aren't interested in SOU or any AGS airports. Don't believe me look at the lack of new routes coming out of them. What is SOU going to add that's sustainable and a good deal for an airline? Look at Ryanair's latest expansion today. Not one route from any of the three. BOH got something though, so did NCL so it's not just the big boys. SOU will maintain its usual British Isles and peak summer flights to holiday hot spots and that's it as long as the current lot run it.

Ok you’re right. A business is just throwing millions of pounds down the drain. A business own by a pension fund by the way, who are as risk adverse as it gets. This fact alone really should stop all the doubters.

Let’s be honest, a big chunk of LGWs passengers come from the areas surrounding Southampton and I’m sure the majority of them would pay a premium to fly from SOU rather than the nightmare that is LGW. SOU does have its own train station and motorway junction which shouldn’t be overlooked. Few airports have this. It is never going to be a huge base but can definitely see a respectable base doing well at SOU. It’s a wealthy area with many second home owners. If EZY don’t move in then im sure the likes of Wizz will which EZY will not want.

[TCAS FAN]

SOU is cat 1 ILS only on 20, 02 has poor landing aids with RNAV at best giving a DH at 500feet!
Nowhere near the ILS on both ends of Southend runway!
I'm sure TCAS FAN will give us a definitive comparison of both airports runway .I believe however 02 runway t/o /landing distance is not enhanced by the 20 extension!
Again limited improvement to SOU route development,more improvement to existing load factors in adverse runway conditions.

For the benefit of other recent posts the actual runway length is academic, its the resulatant declared distances and obstacle environment in the take-off/climb surface (TOCS) which will be used for performance calculations. IMHO SEN's TOCS is overall better than SOU's. That said here is a comparison chart, I will leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions, albeit I am reasonably sure that AGS will have discussed them with current and prospective operators. One cautionary note, it is my understanding that CAA has not as yet approved the new SOU declared distances.
SOU RWY 02 (M) (SEN RWY 05)
TORA 1745 (1739)
TODA 1805 (1799)
ASDA 1745 (1739)
LDA 1673 (1604)

SOU RWY 20 (M) (SEN RWY 23)
TORA 1814 (1739)
TODA 1874 (1799)
ASDA 1814 (1799)
LDA 1605 (1604)

[stewyb]

For the benefit of other recent posts the actual runway length is academic, its the resulatant declared distances and obstacle environment in the take-off/climb surface (TOCS) which will be used for performance calculations. IMHO SEN's TOCS is overall better than SOU's. That said here is a comparison chart, I will leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions, albeit I am reasonably sure that AGS will have discussed them with current and prospective operators. One cautionary note, it is my understanding that CAA has not as yet approved the new SOU declared distances.
SOU RWY 02 (M) (SEN RWY 05)
TORA 1745 (1739)
TODA 1805 (1799)
ASDA 1745 (1739)
LDA 1673 (1604)

SOU RWY 20 (M) (SEN RWY 23)
TORA 1814 (1739)
TODA 1874 (1799)
ASDA 1814 (1799)
LDA 1605 (1604)

Thanks and both airports clearly have very similar technical data. One improvement I imagine that will positively effect TOCS at SOU will be the remedial works at Marlhill Copse?

[willy wombat]

Interesting. Are you able to provide a comparison with respect to obstacles affecting climb out/engine out performance?

[TCAS FAN]

Thanks and both airports clearly have very similar technical data. One improvement I imagine that will positively effect TOCS at SOU will be the remedial works at Marlhill Copse?

That's correct.

[TCAS FAN]

Interesting. Are you able to provide a comparison with respect to obstacles affecting climb out/engine out performance?

I could, but would have to invoice you for the work!

Type A Charts, which depict the relevant TOCS obstacles are available online from the NATS/AIS website http://www.nats.aero/ais.
.

[Downwind_Left]

For the aircraft I fly, in identical conditions, calm wind, 25deg C and QNH1013…. Southampton RWY20 is limited by obstacles in the climb out. Southampton 02 and Southend 23 and 05 not so.

Runway length is often not a limiting factor in aircraft performance. Performance restrictions will be the most limiting of runway length, width, slope, surface, and obstacles.

The main benefit to the Southampton extension will be to put the obstacles further from the start of the 20 takeoff run, making them less likely to be limiting.

Link to CAA obstacle chart for Southampton;
NATS EGHI Obstacles (https://nats-uk.ead-it.com/cms-nats/export/sites/default/en/Charts/type-a-charts/NATS_AIM_TypeA_Southampton-EGHI_02-20.pdf)

[Buster the Bear]

Ok you’re right. A business is just throwing millions of pounds down the drain. A business own by a pension fund by the way, who are as risk adverse as it gets. This fact alone really should stop all the doubters.

Let’s be honest, a big chunk of LGWs passengers come from the areas surrounding Southampton and I’m sure the majority of them would pay a premium to fly from SOU rather than the nightmare that is LGW. SOU does have its own train station and motorway junction which shouldn’t be overlooked. Few airports have this. It is never going to be a huge base but can definitely see a respectable base doing well at SOU. It’s a wealthy area with many second home owners. If EZY don’t move in then im sure the likes of Wizz will which EZY will not want.

Absolutely, but once the runway is sorted and larger aircraft become common, Southampton and it's cramped terminal will become just another 'packed' experience. I don't follow the plans for Southampton closely, but hopefully a terminal expansion is close? Currently the terminal is suited to 100 seaters or less.

[stewyb]

Absolutely, but once the runway is sorted and larger aircraft become common, Southampton and it's cramped terminal will become just another 'packed' experience. I don't follow the plans for Southampton closely, but hopefully a terminal expansion is close? Currently the terminal is suited to 100 seaters or less.

Indeed this will be a problem although the airport just doesn’t have the stand space currently for larger operations so a limited expansion of low cost routes is all they can expect in the short term (see my post 793)

[bmaviscount]

Flew out of their last week

It was a dream
We were the only flight in the morning; a dornier to Alderney !
The airport empty
They had to try and find a barista to open up Costa!
Considering the half term chaos at other airports this was like going back in time

It would be a shame if this became a big low cost base like Southend!

Agree capacity is very constrained atm

[cavokblues]

I only used Southend a couple of times and I wouldn't have said it was a big low cost base. If was always quite a refreshing experience compared to Stansted / Luton / Gatwick.

[rog747]

Off to JMK on BA this Sunday morning for Hols - flight does not seem busy.
Looking forward to the calm and quiet of SOU and to fly on a decent airline and a nice aircraft.

Had an issue in booking my Blue Badge Parking at SOU and so sent a constructive comments complaint to AGS CEO Derek Provan - Immediate reply from him - we will sort this for you and at 21.30 that same evening Steve Szalay the new SOU Operations Director personally called me and offered me 2 weeks free parking -
Now that is customer service - top notch.

Had a nice chat with him - Told him I was retired ''Industry'', and I asked him if SOU was coping OK and he said we have 4 periods each week where potential staff shortages on the ground handling side could cause an issue but he is 'well on it' and so far no problems -
SOU had 400 ground staff pre-Covid - they now have less than 150 with an increasing flight program, with an ongoing recruitment program too.

I asked him how were the BA loads so far this season and he was sort of non-committal...
I do feel that BA needs to be more ''out there'' and so many folk local to me here in Dorset have no idea of what BA offer from SOU (and at pretty good fares)
I hope that BA does well at SOU this first full year of non-interrupted Ops.
At least TUI package holidays have taken seats on the Palma flights (I think they may have taken a whole plane)

FYI 21-25 June train strikes - so trains maybe or will be affected to/from the Airport Station.

[Jn14:6]

I understand that the TUI Palma flights are Saturday afternoons and a whole aircraft charter, so not bookable via BA.

[rog747]

I understand that the TUI Palma flights are Saturday afternoons and a whole aircraft charter, so not bookable via BA.

TUI Holidays are also now using both the SAT and SUN BA scheduled SOU-PMI flights - same times as per the BA Flight Timetable -
I guess they have taken blocks of seats on those, or buying in at an IT rate.

The BA charter for TUI on Saturdays seems to be out at 1450, and 1940 arrive back home.
A highly desirable weekend day flight at great times.
When you search a TUI Majorca holiday booking it is offering you a choice of all the BA flights on some high season weekends.
Could be doing very well for them...Hence TUI now selling holidays on the Scheduled flights on both days too.

I wonder if TUI will pick up more summer holidays on BA flights in 2023 from SOU to Ibiza Malaga Faro and Alicante >
or too much competition with its Bournemouth program>?

TUI dropped Mykonos from its Brochure a few years back; Most accommodation in Mykonos is way too expensive for TUI to contract.
The loads on BA's JMK last season were not that impressive I gather.
This year TUI have strangely dropped Santorini flying from LGW, but still offers it direct from BRS and BHX.

Ingham's used to have Flybe flights SOU to Verona - Very popular indeed with flights going on WED and SATS.
Verona VRN would be a very good one for BA from SOU for TUI and Inghams - who both have large summer Lakes and Mountains programs.

Salzburg and Chambery (BA winter only from SOU) would both fit nicely with TUI's Crystal Ski, and Inghams Ski programs.

The pretty disastrous Skiathos charter series (flown by Flybe with a hefty payload restriction) shows that you do need integrations with Tour Operators to help you share and take the risk - such as could have been with TUI, Olympic, Ionian Island Holidays, CV Villas, Mark Warner and Sunvil Holidays.
Had that Travel Company (who were actually a seat-only sales agency) wooed the Skiathos package holiday and Villa specialists with its SOU-JSI flight series then I am sure it should have been very successful.
Likewise the Enter Air charter flights based from LGW to Corfu, Preveza, Rhodes, Skiathos via Volos, Samos via Lemnos etc are all shared with above smaller Greek holiday specialists and have been basing a 737-800 at LGW for a number of years now.


TUI Flight Only Last Minute Deals for June on the BA SOU - PMI Charter are from £79, and in July from £92 (no 1 weekers - only 2 or 3 weekers)
Some dates saying only 2 3 or 4 seats left...Goodness!

[SKOJB]

Eastern are cancelling more MAN/BHD flights than flying them at the moment. However, not a surprise when you are charging £250 return on both routes. Flybe may not be everyone’s favourite to return to SOU but they will sure deliver a cheaper fare and a more frequent service!

[Sharklet_321]

Have u seen how many flights Flybe are cancelling these days too my friend 🤦‍♂️

[Sotonsean]

With the Southampton thread not having any posts for well over a week I'm rather disappointed that know one on here has mentioned Aer Lingus Regional starting a daily service from Belfast City to Southampton on July 13 2022 🤔

​​​​​​Great news indeed and now we have nine airlines serving Southampton International Airport. It would be nice to make that ten airlines by the end of the year so come on Lufthansa and announce either Frankfurt or Munich or better still both.

[DUB19]

Starts 7 July 2022

[MARKEYD]

That’s good news for Southampton but not much notice to start filling the flights

3 carriers on the Belfast route now with one carrier having an alarming cancellation rate and one carrier with eye watering prices you could fly to the US with that fare

[SWBKCB]

you could fly to the US with that fare

from SOU? :suspect:

[Rivet Joint]

With the Southampton thread not having any posts for well over a week I'm rather disappointed that know one on here has mentioned Aer Lingus Regional starting a daily service from Belfast City to Southampton on July 13 2022 🤔

​​​​​​Great news indeed and now we have nine airlines serving Southampton International Airport. It would be nice to make that ten airlines by the end of the year so come on Lufthansa and announce either Frankfurt or Munich or better still both.

Finally! Strange they went with Belfast over Dublin but hopefully that will follow. Quite amazing how shocking Eastern have been. They had free reign to to make SOU their own and messed it up big time. I guess they were just looking to make a quick buck.

[TCAS FAN]

While the AXO website indicates that an appeal may be lodged over the runway extension Judicial Review outcome, and that the website would be updated when a decision on whether one is to be made (which it currently hasn't), it is my understanding that an appeal has been lodged. Can anyone confirm this?

If an appeal has been lodged it could be 2-3 months before it is heard.

[Rivet Joint]

Anyone know why all the charters to Ireland are about today? Numerous flights to Kerry and one to Shannon and cork.

[stewyb]

While the AXO website indicates that an appeal may be lodged over the runway extension Judicial Review outcome, and that the website would be updated when a decision on whether one is to be made (which it currently hasn't), it is my understanding that an appeal has been lodged. Can anyone confirm this?

If an appeal has been lodged it could be 2-3 months before it is heard.

Yes, likely Sept/Oct

[Buster the Bear]

An appeal over a judicial review outcome will be alarmingly expensive. Going to a judicial review and losing means all the fees are paid by loser. Someone has DEEP pockets!

[zantopst]

Anyone know why all the charters to Ireland are about today? Numerous flights to Kerry and one to Shannon and cork.

this was for American cruise ship passengers that had arrived at Southampton docks taking them to various parts of Ireland to continue their vacations

[Rivet Joint]

An appeal over a judicial review outcome will be alarmingly expensive. Going to a judicial review and losing means all the fees are paid by loser. Someone has DEEP pockets!

The owners of BOH I suspect. There were a lot of sizeable anonymous bids during their fundraising which you have to question. Unlikely to be coming from a private individual. Not sure how this does not constitute anti-competition.

[Rivet Joint]

this was for American cruise ship passengers that had arrived at Southampton docks taking them to various parts of Ireland to continue their vacations

ah, that will explain it. Thanks for confirming.

[gkmeech]

Their legal teams address is in Bournemouth ... just saying 😊

[Sharklet_321]

Rigby group own BOH and their legal team is based in London.

[Rivet Joint]

Rigby group own BOH and their legal team is based in London.

They are not going to use their own legal team are they. It’s clearly being done under the radar. Even the saddest nimby would have given up and got a life by now and I doubt the lawyers think there is much point in continuing (although of course they are happy to still collect cheques for pushing paper). This is being driven by a particularly vindictive entity that has to have a vested interest in damaging SOUs business. There is little prospect of things being overturned but the longer it drags on the more damage it does. Regardless of where you stand this is not right and should be investigated.

[cavokblues]

Judicial reviews are incredibly difficult to overturn. They have to prove due process wasn't followed. It does seem a very easy way to burn through a lot of money quickly.

I'm dubious as to whether BOH are behind it. I just don't see how the runway extension at SOU will seriously impact BOH operations.

[TCAS FAN]

Think that we can now rule out any skulduggery by BOH. I now understand that "permission to appeal" has been lodged by AXO. This I believe will require compelling new evidence to stand any chance of an appeal being granted. From what I understand there is nothing of such nature in the permission request. Hopefully SOU are now talking to prospective construction contractors?

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
I'm not sure if you have answered this before,but will the construction work effect the ILS on 20?

[stewyb]

Think that we can now rule out any skulduggery by BOH. I now understand that "permission to appeal" has been lodged by AXO. This I believe will require compelling new evidence to stand any chance of an appeal being granted. From what I understand there is nothing of such nature in the permission request. Hopefully SOU are now talking to prospective construction contractors?

initial construction materials already procured with lead times involved

[TCAS FAN]

TCAS FAN
I'm not sure if you have answered this before,but will the construction work effect the ILS on 20?

The current RWY 20 displaced threshold, which the ILS uses will not change, so no impact.

During certain construction phases the current 20 displaced threshold may need to be temporarily moved further south to ensure provision of minimum runway strip end and RESA for both 20 & 02. Detailed planning and execution of the construction may possibly permit avoidance of this.

If it is necessary to use a temporary displaced threshold the ILS glide path will not be useable with a “Localiser only” instrument approach possible. This of course will have a higher approach minima than the full ILS.

[BAladdy]

Guessing BACF have dropped FLR and NCE for S22 as no flights available to book

[rog747]

Guessing BACF have dropped FLR and NCE for S22 as no flights available to book

Yes both NCE and FLR were taken off sale for this summer just as I was about to book FLR in Sept which was annoying as there were plenty of Avios reward seats left.
They are both now listed for Ops > from 13/05/23

BACF are doing winter Ski flights SOU to CMF and SZG.

SOU-JMK-SOU June 2022

Have to say my recent travel on BACF from SOU to Mykonos and back in June was 99% perfect.
Car Park is excellent - book early for cheaper rates - short stay undercover is where Blue Badge can park and it is one minutes walk to check-in.

Sun morning 9am, although there were 5 or 6 flights leaving the Terminal and Dep lounge was ''almost empty'' - our JMK was 1005 STD.
No point arriving at SOU for flights much more than one hour before departure unless you want to go to the Business Lounge.

Ok, so the aircraft types at SOU are not big ((50-98 seats max) so folk waiting at the gates were all very civilised and nothing was crowded.
Check-in was a breeze (almost empty) although the young chap was brand new (Swissport) he had little customer experience, but we had a nice chat and he wants to go to NATS/ATC so we wished him all the best.
Security was a breeze, although enthusiastically thorough, and my 79yo sister was subjected to 2 or 3 full body scans, with frisking and repeated pat downs.
Seems they were obsessed she had metal on her...

Here's where SOU was a let down but they need to tweak this PDQ -
Flight boarded a bit close to time and we inwardly groaned it was a coaching gate -
The ground agents and coach driver then proceeded to want all 68 of us crammed on one bus...
We then had to wait on a very warm bus for the last 2 stragglers (as always) who got lost (how>?) in Duty Free.
Finally got to the Aircraft - first thing I saw (with my Airline Ops career eyes) was only one set of steps and the fuel still connected up pumping on - You all know you cannot board Pax whilst refuelling unless you have 2 sets of steps.
Clocks ticking...Skipper looks flustered and runs down the front steps - forgets his Hi Viz then runs back up to get it on - Gets the fuel chit - runs back up steps and 5 mins later the CC give a thumbs up to board -
Boarding was chaotic with only one set of steps as folk down the back (say rows 13-25) should have been asked to board first.
Anyway we got on board - I sort of knew the No.1 and I said to her with glazed eyes ''2 sets of steps?'' - LOL, so she said back to me - It's already down on my flight report, and we now have lost our slot of course...Well I never...90 minutes the skipper said we now got to wait....Ugh.
About 35 minutes later luckily we got a new routing and slot to depart.

This Ground Handling issue is NOT the airlines fault but total lack of any idea at SOU Management and its Handling Agents how to turn around an aircraft.
None of the City flyers had 2 sets of steps on (both out and coming back at SOU), but there seemed plenty of ramp guys milling about and I saw spare sets of steps unused.
At Mykonos - also a tiny airport, 2 sets of steps are put on every aircraft arrival and is the norm; they are on the aircraft within a minute or 2 (also Swissport Handling)
We were back row 25 so we were off down the rear steps PDQ and a short walk across the road to Passports, so we were amongst the first off.
The SOU MD perhaps should pop out to JMK and see how they (and Swissport JMK) do it there;
although a small airport too, they handle much bigger planes there - up to 737-Max8, 757-200, and A321N.

Loads more leg room in rows 24 and 25 BTW.

Despite the boarding hiccups, the Airport, the Flight, the aircraft, the crew, the seat, nice free food and drinks, and excellent leg room was all superb and we landed almost on time at a very windy and sunny Mykonos.

Spoke at length to the BACF crew during the flight - they have 2 CC on these flights with sometimes 8, 16 or often up to 32 Club Europe pax especially on the JMK, PMI and FAO flights - CE pax get Hot Meals both ways.
It is busy for them and of course non-stop hard work, but the Crews like these weekend SOU operations away from LCY, as they get SOU JER and PMI weekend night stops.
BACF also do Palma W patterns to both JER and GCI with the SOU-PMI so it is a big operation to crew - I saw 7 BA EMB's on the ground at SOU when we got back.
She also said the loads are really picking up on some routes - we had 8C/60Y outbound and 16C/70Y on the way back.
My pals went a week later to JMK and it was not busy at all - not even half full both ways.

Shame Florence has been canned this summer as that was a Def for me in Sept, but I shall likely use JMK again as I am off for a month's Greek Island Hopping in Sept.

All in all flying out and back to SOU with BACF was pretty awesome, despite ''steps-gate'' LOL.

Edit - Flybe start SOU - Toulon 24 July - 18 Sept

[SWBKCB]

35 min unnecessary delay and your other comments and 99% perfect? Blimey.

Is the clue not in the term "handling agent"? BA should be setting the standard of what they want

[rog747]

35 min unnecessary delay and your other comments and 99% perfect? Blimey.

Is the clue not in the term "handling agent"? BA should be setting the standard of what they want

I have no wish to appear rude but really....lol
I don't get your first point sorry - I'm not thick but have you have posted for the sake of just writing some splurge, so unless you can kindly amplify>?
Ta ever so.

Second point -
The airline HAS repeatedly filed complaints over the handling each weekend since they started in May...Of course there is a set standard of supply you must know that if you fly-
2 sets of steps ARE the standard in their Contract -
The JMK the week before suffered a much much longer ATC delay due to that same farce in coaching and late boarding.
Of course BACF need to address Swissport at SOU - Maybe they have already - They will if they cop delays that lead pax to claim EU261.
I actually don't have to explain myself old chap -

[SWBKCB]

The point I was making was that you say the experience was 99% perfect and then go into a long list of issues you enountered - a bit inconsistent? How can it be 99% perfect when you are delayed etc by poor organisation?.

And the airline is responsible for the performance of their 'agent' - easy cop out to say its not our fault.

[rog747]

Ugh I cant be bothered to argue - I post an informative chatty Trip report - with helpful info for any SOU posters and pax and until you barge in...
Most of us with long airline experience should be able to fully empathise with my comments which are constructive and not a rant.


OK so no worries I'll just delete all the post then -- s** the lot of you!

You can best stick to your huge number postings on all of the other small regionals moaning about airport closures and their plights that you seem to wallow in.

[stewyb]

Thanks Rog747 for this informative post. Has to be said that apart from a few ‘teething’ issues, BACF are a perfect fit for SOU and I only hope they stick around and also add some winter sun routes! Cheers

[MARKEYD]

Very informative report !!

( just ignore the clowns post , nothing interesting to say to be honest)

Definitely need some more steps for sure , even down here in Jersey we have 2 sets of steps for everything, so much quicker

[rog747]

Thanks stewyb - and MarkyD
No sign or word of any further winter leisure routes from BACF this year -
Just the 2 Ski destinations CMF and SZG,
and Easy Jet continues the GVA Ski flights again (4 weekly) from both SOU and BOH - with 186 seat A320's

Only BOH has winter sun for us locals with TUI - the Canaries TFS LPA ACE, and 3 Barbados P&O Fly-cruises.
RYR also has TFS ACE ALC AGP FAO and MLA for this winter from BOH


On the BACF flights if you buy a Y class cabin baggage only fare you can take two bags in the cabin (up to 23kgs each allowed)
However be warned - the Overhead Lockers on the EMB are not big enough for larger cabin bags that will normally go OK in the lockers on an Airbus 320/321, or a 737.
If you buy a Y or Avios fare with checked baggage then you get 1 bag @ 23kgs, plus your 2 cabin bags.

You can no longer on BA pool your baggage allowance with family/friends on your booking (unlike TUI, EZY and RYR)
and at SOU they were strict (Computer says no) about checking in 2 bags even if you have 2 pieces within 23 kgs.
Whereas in Mykonos they just checked everything in plus the donkeys and sombrero's without any worries whatsoever LOL.
BA used to be very easy going on pooling allowances and also checking in unwanted hand luggage etc but seems that has now all changed.

Have to say that breezing through SOU out and back during such awful chaotic times seen since May at other UK airports, then SOU was a pure dream.

Yes they need to sort out optimums for ground handling and efficiencies, and I trust that someone at the Top is on top of that.
2 sets good - 1 set bad....

[willy wombat]

Interesting post and, to be honest, even though I live 30 minutes from LGW and 90 minutes from SOU I am seriously thinking about using SOU for my next trip to Scotland to avoid the LGW chaos. Re coaching. It’s common knowledge that to achieve on time departures when coaching you need two coaches - one for the bulk of the pax and one for the “runners” as we used to call them. The question is whether the airline is prepared to pay for the second coach.

[rog747]

Indeed wombat, and thanks -

In our case if there had been 2 sets of steps (as there should be) then the first bus could have gone out as you say, with most of the pax to get them on-board and seated, even with fuel still going on, and then popped back to the gate for the stragglers...and hey Presto! - doors closed OT, or early - Skippers happy.

Simple really - not rocket science to achieve OT departures - Oh wait, yes! I helped write the manuals about 40 years ago LOL.

[Rivet Joint]

Yes both NCE and FLR were taken off sale for this summer just as I was about to book FLR in Sept which was annoying as there were plenty of Avios reward seats left.
They are both now listed for Ops > from 13/05/23

BACF are doing winter Ski flights SOU to CMF and SZG.

SOU-JMK-SOU June 2022

Have to say my recent travel on BACF from SOU to Mykonos and back in June was 99% perfect.
Car Park is excellent - book early for cheaper rates - short stay undercover is where Blue Badge can park and it is one minutes walk to check-in.

Sun morning 9am, although there were 5 or 6 flights leaving the Terminal and Dep lounge was ''almost empty'' - our JMK was 1005 STD.
No point arriving at SOU for flights much more than one hour before departure unless you want to go to the Business Lounge.

Ok, so the aircraft types at SOU are not big ((50-98 seats max) so folk waiting at the gates were all very civilised and nothing was crowded.
Check-in was a breeze (almost empty) although the young chap was brand new (Swissport) he had little customer experience, but we had a nice chat and he wants to go to NATS/ATC so we wished him all the best.
Security was a breeze, although enthusiastically thorough, and my 79yo sister was subjected to 2 or 3 full body scans, with frisking and repeated pat downs.
Seems they were obsessed she had metal on her...

Here's where SOU was a let down but they need to tweak this PDQ -
Flight boarded a bit close to time and we inwardly groaned it was a coaching gate -
The ground agents and coach driver then proceeded to want all 68 of us crammed on one bus...
We then had to wait on a very warm bus for the last 2 stragglers (as always) who got lost (how>?) in Duty Free.
Finally got to the Aircraft - first thing I saw (with my Airline Ops career eyes) was only one set of steps and the fuel still connected up pumping on - You all know you cannot board Pax whilst refuelling unless you have 2 sets of steps.
Clocks ticking...Skipper looks flustered and runs down the front steps - forgets his Hi Viz then runs back up to get it on - Gets the fuel chit - runs back up steps and 5 mins later the CC give a thumbs up to board -
Boarding was chaotic with only one set of steps as folk down the back (say rows 13-25) should have been asked to board first.
Anyway we got on board - I sort of knew the No.1 and I said to her with glazed eyes ''2 sets of steps?'' - LOL, so she said back to me - It's already down on my flight report, and we now have lost our slot of course...Well I never...90 minutes the skipper said we now got to wait....Ugh.
About 35 minutes later luckily we got a new routing and slot to depart.

This Ground Handling issue is NOT the airlines fault but total lack of any idea at SOU Management and its Handling Agents how to turn around an aircraft.
None of the City flyers had 2 sets of steps on (both out and coming back at SOU), but there seemed plenty of ramp guys milling about and I saw spare sets of steps unused.
At Mykonos - also a tiny airport, 2 sets of steps are put on every aircraft arrival and is the norm; they are on the aircraft within a minute or 2 (also Swissport Handling)
We were back row 25 so we were off down the rear steps PDQ and a short walk across the road to Passports, so we were amongst the first off.
The SOU MD perhaps should pop out to JMK and see how they (and Swissport JMK) do it there;
although a small airport too, they handle much bigger planes there - up to 737-Max8, 757-200, and A321N.

Loads more leg room in rows 24 and 25 BTW.

Despite the boarding hiccups, the Airport, the Flight, the aircraft, the crew, the seat, nice free food and drinks, and excellent leg room was all superb and we landed almost on time at a very windy and sunny Mykonos.

Spoke at length to the BACF crew during the flight - they have 2 CC on these flights with sometimes 8, 16 or often up to 32 Club Europe pax especially on the JMK, PMI and FAO flights - CE pax get Hot Meals both ways.
It is busy for them and of course non-stop hard work, but the Crews like these weekend SOU operations away from LCY, as they get SOU JER and PMI weekend night stops.
BACF also do Palma W patterns to both JER and GCI with the SOU-PMI so it is a big operation to crew - I saw 7 BA EMB's on the ground at SOU when we got back.
She also said the loads are really picking up on some routes - we had 8C/60Y outbound and 16C/70Y on the way back.
My pals went a week later to JMK and it was not busy at all - not even half full both ways.

Shame Florence has been canned this summer as that was a Def for me in Sept, but I shall likely use JMK again as I am off for a month's Greek Island Hopping in Sept.

All in all flying out and back to SOU with BACF was pretty awesome, despite ''steps-gate'' LOL.

Edit - Flybe start SOU - Toulon 24 July - 18 Sept

Interesting post. SOU have always had issues airside. It’s been years now of flights arriving on time or even quite a bit early but going out quite a bit late. Especially the bigger planes. EZY and Volotea flights always leave late. I guess SOUs issue is that it is not busy enough throughout the day to justify the cost of more equipment/staff for the odd busy patch or visit of a large aircraft. Hopefully the runway and the chance of bigger planes will lead to investment to improve airside ops.

[TCAS FAN]

Indeed wombat, and thanks -

In our case if there had been 2 sets of steps (as there should be) then the first bus could have gone out as you say, with most of the pax to get them on-board and seated, even with fuel still going on, and then popped back to the gate for the stragglers...and hey Presto! - doors closed OT, or early - Skippers happy.

Simple really - not rocket science to achieve OT departures - Oh wait, yes! I helped write the manuals about 40 years ago LOL.

Is it now time to put out a call "Come back Skycare?"

I still use my Skycare suitcase straps, very unlikely any other PAX on the flight will have the same. They've now clocked up well over a million miles and are still going strong.

[Sotonsean]

The thread has gone rather quiet over the last few weeks.

Great to see Flybe once again at Southampton with flights to Avignon and Toulon starting over the weekend.

Someone posted a very long video on YouTube of the activity at Southampton Airport on Saturday 23 July and the airport was rather busy with several unique visitors.

The aircraft shown in the footage included,

Aer Lingus Regional (Emerald Airways)...ATR:-600
Amellia Airways...Airbus A319
Aurigny...ATR-600, Dornier
Blue Islands...ATR-600
British Airways...Embraer 190
Carpatair...Fokker 100
Eastern Airways...ATR-600, Embraer 190
Flybe...DH-800
Loganair...Embraer 145

Quite a few business jets arriving and departing including several Falcon 900's and two Boeing 737 BBJS and an all black and unidentified ATR-600

Great to see the airport getting busier with so many movements and I rather enjoyed watching the footage on YouTube from the comfort of my home.

​​​​​​
​​

[stewyb]

The airport has bounced back tremendously well and the past few weekends especially have been busy busy with BA and cruise charters, also great to see so many different types using the airport. BE operated two services to BHD over the weekend before commencing this Thursday and the press release also states that SOU will become an important airport for BE, hence more routes very likely. Let’s get the runway over the line once and for all by September and things will certainly be looking up for a bright future with EZY hopefully expanding their route network!

[OzzyOzBorn]

Amelia Airways, Air Alsie (black ATR72) have been ferrying ladies football teams around in association with the Euros tournament. Possibly the Carpatair FK100 as well, but not sure about that.

[zantopst]

Amelia Airways, Air Alsie (black ATR72) have been ferrying ladies football teams around in association with the Euros tournament. Possibly the Carpatair FK100 as well, but not sure about that.

incorrect. The Amelia A319. The air Alsie atr. The carpatair and the Klas jet 737’s have all been cruise ship charters picking up American tourists from Southampton and taking them to Ireland which occurred for 3 Saturdays in a row. Last weekend was the 1st weekend where the opposite occurred and the cruise ship passengers were all inbound to Southampton from Ireland.

[Wycombe]

Looks like Emerald are increasing BHD rotations to 2 daily on some days starting around the August Bank Holiday weekend.

There is either a lot of demand on this route (more capacity now than pre-pandemic) or one (or more) of the current 3 carriers won't last.

[RW20]

Let's hope it's Emerald that lasts,but it can't hold more then one carrier on this route!

[GLCYZ]

On the BACF flights if you buy a Y class cabin baggage only fare you can take two bags in the cabin (up to 23kgs each allowed)
However be warned - the Overhead Lockers on the EMB are not big enough for larger cabin bags that will normally go OK in the lockers on an Airbus 320/321, or a 737.
If you buy a Y or Avios fare with checked baggage then you get 1 bag @ 23kgs, plus your 2 cabin bags..

It's true about the lockers being smaller however if the suitcase is within the allowed BA dimensions then it will fit so long as it's not placed in the middle of the locker fouling the latch. The second bag (personal item) must go under the seat.

[zantopst]

https://www.southamptonairport.com/news/media-centre/2022/southampton-airport-welcomes-court-of-appeal-decision/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=AGS+Social&fs=e&s=cl

hopefully work can now really begin on the extension

[TCAS FAN]

https://www.southamptonairport.com/news/media-centre/2022/southampton-airport-welcomes-court-of-appeal-decision/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=AGS+Social&fs=e&s=cl

hopefully work can now really begin on the extension

Great news. Hopefully all will soon become clearer whether the future is orange?

[Rivet Joint]

Great news. Hopefully all will soon become clearer whether the future is orange?

With a bit of pink/blue on the side potentially. Someone has to serve the huge Eastern European contingent. The majority are currently using LTN and STN to fly their favourite airline.

[SKOJB]

With the runway extension due to complete next year, which new airline/s do we think will be the first to arrive and to where?

[BA318]

Could Lufthansa or Swiss be a possibility? They have slowly expanded in UK over the past year or two adding Bristol, Liverpool, Newcastle. Edelweiss and Eurowings added Newquay too. Perhaps a CRJ900 to FRA or MUC could work like Liverpool?

[rog747]

It is good to see SOU getting back on its feet, and we have an increasing choice steadily being added, plus the BA summer leisure flights.

Having the KLM AMS getting back to a morning and an evening flight is great so you can connect there onwards with a great choice.
It would be good to see the Air France Paris CDG come back (KLM partner) - CDG again has huge connectivity.
KLM and AF are also a Virgin Atlantic Frequent Flyer Partner so if you want like me, to go to Manila I can use my Virgin Points to fly SOU-AMS-MNL with great connections.
I am also doing this next year for a Kenya Safari SOU-AMS-NBO/JRO.

Aer Lingus Dublin DUB could be attractive - good connections there for USA and Canada are possible, and you can usually pre-clear USA immigration at DUB too.

This is the business that hopefully will start to increase for SOU that make these feeder flights work, but with the right marketing and support of Travel Agents we would hope to see them busy.

The reason Edelweiss and Eurowings added Newquay (again) is due to the huge (seasonal) German tourist market attracted to Cornwall, in which the popular novels about Cornish life and its families penned by Rosamund Pilcher, and BBC TV's Poldark play a huge part in that attraction;
but as for LH LX or Eurowings looking at SOU, perhaps maybe they are looking and talking>?

Other ideas for new airlines (that's all we have is ''ideas'') getting attracted with a Runway extension - Well the likes of our near neighbour EU airlines surely any extension is hypothetical, and not an issue as they have types that can fly in now -
Trouble is an A319 or an A220 are big planes to fill, likewise so is an EMB-190 with 90+ seats.
And loaded CRJ's are too slippery for SOU IIRC.

I don't see Easy Jet in the near term adding any more routes at SOU - so apart from their Winter GVA 'Ski' series (which are mirrored also out of Bournemouth) I reckon not for now.
What I do see is Ryanair steadily increasing their Bournemouth presence (year round) which no doubt Easy Jet feels that any such in-road for them at SOU is maybe a risk too much>?
Easy Jet are not in the best of shape this year, so imminent expansions for them surely will be limited;
EZY are slowly returning to Southend SEN (just)
Thus IMHO I do not see SOU going ORANGE anytime soon.

As for Flybe - Will we see an increase and some more destinations added ?

With utmost respect to the Poster above -
''Someone has to serve the huge Eastern European contingent''
Umm they've all gone home old chap - !
Hampshire Dorset and Devon have lost many 1000's of workers that came here for permanent and seasonal jobs.
That ship has sailed locally except for stronger contingents more in the London areas.
Again it is Ryanair though who has kept a couple of strong year round Eastern Europe destinations from BOH, plus have added BOH-Budapest (a great leisure destination)
Will that guest worker market come back>? Maybe if we relax work visas.


SOU could benefit from BA's domestic woes at London Airport....>?

Why not try SOU ? - This is a great time for SOU's marketing to tell folk ''we are here''
SOU are offering a good and increasing choice of UK domestic flights and to Eire and the C.I.
(Plus a great choice of BACF sunshine and leisure routes choice at weekends to France, Faro, Mykonos and Spain/Balearics. (also a BACF Edinburgh)

Only an hour on the train or less to SOU Parkway station from WATERLOO, Clapham Jctn and WOK. (OK don't mention the rail strikes LOL)
3 minute walk to check-in or security - Check-in times no more than 1 hour or less.
Car Park is also superb and across the road from Terminal - Just off the M3 and M27.

Marketing could work with the current airlines and get this out there - Maybe offer a free rail ticket with a Full Fare flight ticket>?
It's all about PR....

Just my Tuppence.

[BA318]

It is good to see SOU getting back on its feet, and we have an increasing choice steadily being added, plus the BA summer leisure flights.

Having the KLM AMS back to a morning and an evening flight is great so you can connect there onwards with a great choice.
It would be good to see the Air France Paris CDG come back (KLM partner) - CDG again has huge connectivity.
KLM and AF are also a Virgin Atlantic Frequent Flyer Partner so if you want like me, to go to Manila I can use my Virgin Points to fly SOU-AMS-MNL with great connections.
I am also doing this next year for a Kenya Safari SOU-AMS-NBO/JRO.

Aer Lingus Dublin DUB could be attractive - good connections there for USA and Canada are possible, and you can usually pre-clear USA immigration at DUB too.

This is the business that hopefully will start to increase for SOU that make these feeder flights work, but with the right marketing and support of Travel Agents we would hope to see them busy.

The reason Edelweiss and Eurowings added Newquay (again) is due to the huge (seasonal) German tourist market attracted to Cornwall, in which the popular novels about Cornish life and its families penned by Rosamund Pilcher, and BBC TV's Poldark play a huge part in that attraction;
but as for LH LX or Eurowings looking at SOU, perhaps maybe they are looking and talking>?

Other ideas for new airlines (that's all we have is ''ideas'') getting attracted with a Runway extension - Well the likes of our near neighbour EU airlines surely any extension is hypothetical, and not an issue as they have types that can fly in now -
Trouble is an A319 or an A220 are big planes to fill, likewise so is an EMB-190 with 90+ seats.
And loaded CRJ's are too slippery for SOU IIRC.

I don't see Easy Jet in the near term adding any more routes at SOU - so apart from their Winter GVA 'Ski' series (which are mirrored also out of Bournemouth) I reckon not for now.
What I do see is Ryanair steadily increasing their Bournemouth presence (year round) which no doubt Easy Jet feels that any such in-road for them at SOU is maybe a risk too much>?
Easy Jet are not in the best of shape this year, so imminent expansions for them surely will be limited;
EZY are slowly returning to Southend SEN (just)
Thus IMHO I do not see SOU going ORANGE anytime soon.

As for Flybe - Will we see an increase and some more destinations added ?

With utmost respect to the Poster above -
''Someone has to serve the huge Eastern European contingent''
Umm they've all gone home old chap - !
Hampshire Dorset and Devon have lost many 1000's of workers that came here for permanent and seasonal jobs.
That ship has sailed locally except for stronger contingents more in the London areas.
Again it is Ryanair though who has kept a couple of strong year round Eastern Europe destinations from BOH, plus have added BOH-Budapest (a great leisure destination)
Will that guest worker market come back>? Maybe if we relax work visas.


SOU could benefit from BA's domestic woes at London Airport....>?

Why not try SOU ? - This is a great time for SOU's marketing to tell folk ''we are here''
SOU are offering a good and increasing choice of UK domestic flights and to Eire and the C.I.
(Plus a great choice of BACF sunshine and leisure routes choice at weekends to France, Faro, Mykonos and Spain/Balearics. (also a BACF Edinburgh)

Only an hour on the train or less to SOU Parkway station from WATERLOO, Clapham Jctn and WOK. (OK don't mention the rail strikes LOL)
3 minute walk to check-in or security - Check-in times no more than 1 hour or less.
Car Park is also superb and across the road from Terminal - Just off the M3 and M27.

Marketing could work with the current airlines and get this out there - Maybe offer a free rail ticket with a Full Fare flight ticket>?
It's all about PR....

Just my Tuppence.

I’m not sure we can say all Eastern European immigrants went home. 6million people applied for settled status after Brexit (of course not all are from Eastern Europe) but that is nearly 10% of the population. They certainly haven’t just left. Most are far more integrated into British life.

[RW20]

Rog747
very refreshing to read your take on the runway extension and a much more realistic analysis,I'm afraid the usual suspects on this forum get carried away.
It is true Ryanair are doing very well at Bournemouth and continue to add routes,indeed Bournemouth pax numbers continue to climb and look very healthy.
With 2023 looking pretty tough for airlines ,I can't see any reason why Easy would want to start operations from SOU and complete with Ryanair just down the road.
Southampton will no doubt continue to recover slowly ,but will have the extra runway length for maximum loads with existing aircraft.

[stewyb]

RW20 - your biased continues I’m afraid and its always about them versus us, BOH is thriving v SOU growing slowly nonsense. Do you honestly believe that the airport are spending large amounts of money on the extension just to satisfy existing airlines and their extra load capacity? It’s been raised by SOU on numerous occasions that they are looking for a LCC in some capacity to take the airport to the next level and I’m sure this is indeed what will happen for the future. Do I think whomever will open a base initially, no, but I can foresee the likes of EZY testing the water for next summer with a few away base routes. So stop this rubbish about competition from Ryanair at BOH and wake up to the fact that other airlines exist and will want to attempt market share on select routes. Another dark horse could be the return of Volotea!

[rog747]

I’m not sure we can say all Eastern European immigrants went home. 6 million people applied for settled status after Brexit (of course not all are from Eastern Europe) but that is nearly 10% of the population. They certainly haven’t just left. Most are far more integrated into British life.

Of course it is difficult for us to know the pertinent numbers of those who got the new permits with leave to remain, or those that got them and lost their jobs and went home, or those who already had permanent residency and long settled anyway, but we are speaking locally here about catchment areas for Flight Ops to/from SOU serving those Eastern European areas.

What I do know is that the Tourist and Hospitality sector in this area (plus many other Trades, and the SOU based cruise ships), plus in the locales adjoining, the SW region Dorset/Devon have seen those people simply disappear and have gone home.
They have left - Fact, and in large numbers -
Once upon a time you could easily get staff - now it's nigh on impossible, especially in the Tourism areas, which is what we thrive on down here.

Whether it be to EU/Brexit implications, and also laid off due to Covid-19 that facts show that 1000's are no longer here working.

So any airline thinking of flying those Routes in or of SOU would not IMHO have any business model, especially when Ryanair are there doing it up the road at BOH.

[davidjohnson6]

There are a very large number of airlines operating in Europe. However, the number of airlines that are not already at SOU but might credibly be interested is modest

[SKOJB]

All this talk of a Ryanair love in with BOH, has anyone thought they might test out SOU with their SFP 800’s just like they did SEN?

[ATNotts]

All this talk of a Ryanair love in with BOH, has anyone thought they might test out SOU with their SFP 800’s just like they did SEN?

Probably the terms under which Ryanair might "test out SOU" would be if the Airport paid them to do so, even getting everything for free probably wouldn't cut the mustard! With a large investment in a runway extension to pay for shelling out more cash to get a carrier such as Ryanair, or say Wizz in would probably be a poor use of shareholders money.

[rog747]

RW20 - your biased continues I’m afraid and its always about them versus us, BOH is thriving v SOU growing slowly nonsense. Do you honestly believe that the airport are spending large amounts of money on the extension just to satisfy existing airlines and their extra load capacity? It’s been raised by SOU on numerous occasions that they are looking for a LCC in some capacity to take the airport to the next level and I’m sure this is indeed what will happen for the future. Do I think whomever will open a base initially, no, but I can foresee the likes of EZY testing the water for next summer with a few away base routes. So stop this rubbish about competition from Ryanair at BOH and wake up to the fact that other airlines exist and will want to take their own market share on select routes. Another dark horse could be the return of Volotea!

To be fair to RW20 his response to my post is a breath of fresh air, and puts his head above the parapet -
Why not cut him some slack, or else ''why not attack me and my post'' lol

I'm not really interested in anyone's previous negative or seemingly biased posts, nor of the many who have rose tinted plane-spotter specs on LOL -
We are in the here and now.
Someone nicely asked here what the future holds 'if and when the runway work gets done', and also about the imminent future -
SOU is not doing bad - yes BOH is doing good v SOU growing nice and steadily --- So lets just all offer our opines, break it down as to the why and wherefore, and everyone has the right to enjoy to comment so we can nicely exchange views (and beg to differ of course)

SOU may like the idea of a LCC base, but we now have lived in different times, but thankfully with lights at the end of the tunnel for steady recovery.
But Orange is not our colour du jour.

SOU have also clearly maintained all along that the longer runway will in the main, be able to offer existing aircraft types and its airlines their extra load capacity without runway restrictions in most cases -
It does not open up, nor have they implicated, a whole catalogue of super new medium haul routes, nor can land or take off (economically, or perhaps operationally safely) bigger Jets like the 737-800 or the A321.
SOU cannot park them anyway.

As for TUI, they seem well happy to use and fill their own 98 seat BACF weekly Jet to Palma, plus buy in more seats on the 2 other PMI scheduled BACF flights and on the Ibiza.
TUI has done well this summer at SOU -
If BACF remain for 2023 then I doubt TUI will be returning a 156/180 seat Volotea A319/320 series in the near term (which will still have payload issues from time to time)
TUI have given a lot of work this summer to Alba Star from its regionals, BUT they use a 189 seat 737-800 which does not fit at SOU -
They do still have a -400 series - just the one and it is getting old, 170/174 seats.
The 300/400 series at SOU was once a perfect fit - The new runway work today would ensure that Ops with that type had no payload issues.

Verona is one flight missing (was summer seasonal WEDS and SAT) but it was full (Inghams and TUI Lakes Mountains sold packages on this)
was on a FLYBE Q400, 78 seats.

Enjoy your day! Cold and wet here today - Missing Mykonos lol

[rog747]

The Main Man himself Mr MOL at Ryanair said on TV about SOU over 2 years ago ---- we cannot go to SOU

[LGS6753]

Basing a couple of aircraft at smaller regional airports doesn't fit the LCC model.
Consider some of the failures:
WizzAir at Doncaster
EasyJet/Ryanair/WizzAir at Southend
TUIfly at Coventry
Jet2 at Blackpool
EasyJet at EMA
BMI Baby at Teesside
... and I'm sure there are others.

[rog747]

Actually, Covid aside, Easy Jet was doing just fine and rather dandy at Southend until Ryanair came along, pushed in and royally screwed it all up, and then you know what>?
They left - well I never.
They pushed Easyjet out of STN too.

BOH has had some early on LCC attempts - all failed.

I'm always wondering as to why Jet2 has not gone back 'home' to BOH - ?
Are they being very wise.....

[Albert Hall]

I'm always wondering as to why Jet2 has not gone back 'home' to BOH - ?
Are they being very wise.....

Or maybe they were / are waiting for the position around the runway extension at SOU to be confirmed. Which it just has been ....

[rog747]

Or maybe they were / are waiting for the position around the runway extension at SOU to be confirmed. Which it just has been ....

Ok, but unless Jet2 intend to fly 25yo 737-300's and 757's out of SOU (they still have some of those BTW) then it aint gonna happen. #737-800

[SKOJB]

Ok, but unless Jet2 intend to fly 25yo 737-300's and 757's out of SOU (they still have some of those BTW) then it aint gonna happen. #737-800

Don’t they also have a load of SFP 800’s like RYR operated out of SEN?

[TCAS FAN]

Don’t they also have a load of SFP 800’s like RYR operated out of SEN?

Aren’t Jet 2 now ditching Boeing for Airbus, which presumably will be Neos?

[Jerbourg]

Aren’t Jet 2 now ditching Boeing for Airbus, which presumably will be Neos?

That's correct - they are currently operating 10 A321CEO's (this figure includes leased machines for summer season) with up to 75 NEO's on order/option.

[The Nutts Mutts]

I know it's fun to engage in speculation, but surely there won't be too long to wait to find out what if any new airlines/routes SOU will see in S23. If SOU plan to have the extension operational by April next year then it'll be available for summer operations, and those flights will go on sale over the next few weeks/months. So I reckon by the end of October/November we should have an idea of any new players entering the SOU market.

[rog747]

I know it's fun to engage in speculation, but surely there won't be too long to wait to find out what if any new airlines/routes SOU will see in S23.
If SOU plan to have the extension operational by April next year then it'll be available for summer operations, and those flights will go on sale over the next few weeks/months. So I reckon by the end of October/November we should have an idea of any new players entering the SOU market.

Just to reaffirm that the 737-800NG (Ryanair TUI, Alba Star, Air Europa, and Jet2) and the A321 (Jet2 EZY etc etc) cannot economically fly in or out of SOU -
By that it means taking a full or nearly full ECONOMICAL load of 189 or 210 Passengers and their luggage on or off the runway at SOU without Payload restrictions -
Even with the new 164m extension.

Some here mention Southend - SOU is not SEN;
SOU has differing and restrictive approach/landing and take off/clearways/noise criteria to add in to the calculations which restricts the 738 and A321.
Yes, we have seen both types at SOU in the past but these flights are usually Football, Lapland, or special charters/one-offs.
This affirmation is from the SOU Ops Directors own dialogue recently, and in 2021.
MOL also said 2 years ago that we (RYR) cannot go to SOU with our aircraft - and with that he clearly means ''without a weight penalty'' -
something which RYR would not regularly counter in their business model.

All SOU can attract and they have said that as much see the following taken from their own Master Plan published 2017. (MP covers 2017-2037)
(Obviously written before Flybe collapse and the Pandemic)
quote -
''Offering our airlines in the medium term is traffic forecast based on the level of market capture of passenger demand within the Southampton Airport catchment area.
Due to the short length of the existing runway, Southampton Airport currently has a limited route network range with services primarily provided by regional airlines such as Flybe operating medium sized (70-120 seats) regional aircraft such as Bombardier Q400 and Embraer 175/195 jets.
The main assumption made for the medium term forecast is that a runway starter extension would allow the larger narrow-body aircraft, being the current types of the Airbus A319/A320 and possibly the Boeing 737-800 with 150-190 seats, to operate without major payload restrictions to a more distant and much wider route network from Southampton Airport, covering a range of European destinations.
The investment in the runway starter extension should enable Southampton Airport to attract new carriers to both capture existing demand and stimulate significant traffic growth. This additional traffic would in the main be passengers from the Southampton Airport existing catchment who currently fly primarily from the London airports, since the destinations are not currently served from Southampton Airport.Southampton Airport has for many years lagged behind other UK regionals''
- unquote

So pre-Pandemic the above quoted shows clearly what SOU wanted to attract, but now (5 years on) of course we see a whole different aviation world emerge, for now.
The runway cannot go beyond the current length with the planned 164m extension - that is clearly shown on the land maps of the Master Plan up to 2037.
There is no more land they can take.

If they do not start building works very soon, now that Appeals debacle (?) hopefully is finally over, then when do we see the extended runway operational>?
​​​​​​​next summer or summer 2024>?
Anyone planning to operate for next summer needs to starts planning now - with no extra Tarmac going down, then my money is on 2 years time.

[stewyb]

Just to reaffirm that the 737-800NG (Ryanair TUI, Alba Star, Air Europa, and Jet2) and the A321 (Jet2 EZY etc etc) cannot economically fly in or out of SOU -
By that it means taking a full or nearly full ECONOMICAL load of 189 or 210 Passengers and their luggage on or off the runway at SOU without Payload restrictions -
Even with the new 164m extension.

Some here mention Southend - SOU is not SEN;
SOU has differing and restrictive approach/landing and take off/clearways/noise criteria to add in to the calculations which restricts the 738 and A321.
Yes, we have seen both types at SOU in the past but these flights are usually Football, Lapland, or special charters/one-offs.
This affirmation is from the SOU Ops Directors own dialogue recently, and in 2021.
MOL also said 2 years ago that we (RYR) cannot go to SOU with our aircraft - and with that he clearly means ''without a weight penalty'' -
something which RYR would not regularly counter in their business model.

All SOU can attract and they have said that as much see the following taken from their own Master Plan published 2017. (MP covers 2017-2037)
(Obviously written before Flybe collapse and the Pandemic)
quote -
''Offering our airlines in the medium term is traffic forecast based on the level of market capture of passenger demand within the Southampton Airport catchment area.
Due to the short length of the existing runway, Southampton Airport currently has a limited route network range with services primarily provided by regional airlines such as Flybe operating medium sized (70-120 seats) regional aircraft such as Bombardier Q400 and Embraer 175/195 jets.
The main assumption made for the medium term forecast is that a runway starter extension would allow the larger narrow-body aircraft, being the current types of the Airbus A319/A320 and possibly the Boeing 737-800 with 150-190 seats, to operate without major payload restrictions to a more distant and much wider route network from Southampton Airport, covering a range of European destinations.
The investment in the runway starter extension should enable Southampton Airport to attract new carriers to both capture existing demand and stimulate significant traffic growth. This additional traffic would in the main be passengers from the Southampton Airport existing catchment who currently fly primarily from the London airports, since the destinations are not currently served from Southampton Airport.Southampton Airport has for many years lagged behind other UK regionals''
- unquote

So pre-Pandemic the above quoted shows clearly what SOU wanted to attract, but now (5 years on) of course we see a whole different aviation world emerge, for now.
The runway cannot go beyond the current length with the planned 164m extension - that is clearly shown on the land maps of the Master Plan up to 2037.
There is no more land they can take.

If they do not start building works very soon, now that Appeals debacle (?) hopefully is finally over, then when do we see the extended runway operational>?
next summer or summer 2024>?
Anyone planning to operate for next summer needs to starts planning now - with no extra Tarmac going down, then my money is on 2 years time.

The runway extension will be complete by April 2023 so let’s wait and see if any additional growth materialises thereafter!

[davidjohnson6]

When are major works on extending the runway scheduled to begin ? If nobody knows, it means it's not happening any time soon
Major means lots of people on site... not one man at an entrance gate watching a few CCTV cameras

[LTNman]

With the runway extension due to complete next year, which new airline/s do we think will be the first to arrive and to where?

None initially, I think a few here will be disappointed, as it might be a laborious process with maybe just a random W pattern but time will tell.

Many U.K. airports have runways longer than what is proposed at SOU and they are struggling. As SEN has found out those that put down roots don’t always stay.

[TCAS FAN]

When are major works on extending the runway scheduled to begin ? If nobody knows, it means it's not happening any time soon
Major means lots of people on site... not one man at an entrance gate watching a few CCTV cameras

I refer you to Stewyb's post 834, may answer your question? Certainly not tomorrow, but its happening.

[ATNotts]

The runway extension will be complete by April 2023 so let’s wait and see if any additional growth materialises thereafter!

Infrastructure projects hardly ever come in on time and / or on budget.

If I were a prospective user of the extended runway I think I'd give it a miss until the back end of 2023, or more likely spring 2024.

[cavokblues]

Didn't Azzura operate A320s 10-15 years ago from Southampton to some sun destinations? Were they heavily load restricted?

[TCAS FAN]

Infrastructure projects hardly ever come in on time and / or on budget.

By comparison with other airports’ development projects this is hardly mega.

A case of 164x37metres of paved surface, four extra edge lights, insetting five centreline/approach lights, insetting the current 150 metre approach lighting crossbar, relocating/replacing the RWY 02 runway-end lights, adding a few turning area blue edge lights and installing a (pre-fabricated?) blast fence.

Additionally, possibly a re-aligned perimeter track for use by airside ops vehicles?

Unless there is an issue with the gas pipeline which runs east/west adjacent to the northern airport boundary, cannot see the potential for any significant project delay/overrun, unless the current record dry weather is followed by a monsoon!

[LTNman]

The cost will go up by at least 13% due to predicted inflation.

[Wycombe]

The cost will go up by at least 13% due to predicted inflation.
Unless of course a fixed price Contract has already been negotiated! (I'm not saying it has, but that's a bit of a unfounded statement, unless you know different)

[LTNman]

Who won the contract then to do the work?

[RW20]

The runway extension will be complete by April 2023 so let’s wait and see if any additional growth materialises thereafter!

This is a speculative assumption and is not based on any real facts.In addition the country's worsening financial state surely will impact on family holidays abroad in 2023/24.
Therefore I don't expect any short term arrivals of airlines like easy etc. As stated before existing airlines payloads will be improved in adverse conditions

[stewyb]

This is a speculative assumption and is not based on any real facts.In addition the country's worsening financial state surely will impact on family holidays abroad in 2023/24.
Therefore I don't expect any short term arrivals of airlines like easy etc. As stated before existing airlines payloads will be improved in adverse conditions

Speculative no, facts yes, sorry to disappoint!!

[rog747]

Didn't Azzura operate A320s 10-15 years ago from Southampton to some sun destinations? Were they heavily load restricted?

Yes, A320's flew in and out for Spanair to Tenerife with a Tech stop outward at Nantes. Sorry no records of Azzura.
Spanair also used the Mad-Dog 83 as did Centennial LAC and Oasis (Palma)

Currently EZY use the A319 (that has derated engines) and the A320ceo on their GVA Ski flights - a short sector but has had occasional payload issues I heard.
Volotea have used the 319 for PMI and IBZ in the past -
I gather again occasional tech stops needed - previously they used the Boeing 717 (was the MD-95)

The most popular large aircraft seen at SOU on holiday IT's in the past was the 737-300 and 400, plus the 757-200.

[Rivet Joint]

Speculative no, facts yes, sorry to disappoint!!

You really should know better to respond to this user by now. It’s a shame this forum doesn’t allow you to block seeing posts from certain users. Imagine spending your time posting nothing but negative posts on a forum about an airport you have an apparent irrational dislike for yet using a username that’s linked to that airport’s runway. Oh and for those who don’t know it’s been the same stuck record for years now. Yes years of the same copied and pasted negative posts. The mind boggles.

Anyway, good news that the works should be starting soon. For all those posting past quotes about the runways potential limiting factors even with the extension, it wasn’t long ago that everyone thought Embraer 190 sized aircraft couldn’t be parked on the stands adjacent to the runway. Guess what, the airport made some changes and now a whole bunch of them are parked on those stands over the weekend without any affect on the runway. Things change.

[Wycombe]

Who won the contract then to do the work?

No idea (others may have more info), I just thought it was a bit assumptive to state that costs will go up. If the Airport owners have a professional procurement team (who know how to drive down pricing on competitive bids) this could well not be the case!

[LTNman]

I can only give you the example of Luton. Here a deal was signed by the airport owner to build a 2km link between the airports railway station and the terminal. The deal was valued at £225m. It is over a year late and the cost has risen to close to £300m. I doubt the company that wins the SOU contract will be locked into a price, as all building projects seem to go over budget.

With inflation set to be at 13% and the country going into a deep recession I would expect SOU to hold off starting any work, as interest rates on borrowed money could be substantial due to ever increasing base rates.

[RW20]

There's every chance the runway work will not be done for a while given the bleak recession announcement.

[cavokblues]

Yes, A320's flew in and out for Spanair to Tenerife with a Tech stop outward at Nantes. Sorry no records of Azzura.
Spanair also used the Mad-Dog 83 as did Centennial LAC and Oasis (Palma)

Currently EZY use the A319 (that has derated engines) and the A320ceo on their GVA Ski flights - a short sector but has had occasional payload issues I heard.
Volotea have used the 319 for PMI and IBZ in the past -
I gather again occasional tech stops needed - previously they used the Boeing 717 (was the MD-95)

The most popular large aircraft seen at SOU on holiday IT's in the past was the 737-300 and 400, plus the 757-200.

Cheers Rog. I thought they had been used in the past but wasn't sure regarding the load restrictions.

[TCAS FAN]

……..it wasn’t long ago that everyone thought Embraer 190 sized aircraft couldn’t be parked on the stands adjacent to the runway. Guess what, the airport made some changes and now a whole bunch of them are parked on those stands over the weekend without any affect on the runway. Things change.

It wasn’t the airport that made the changes it was ICAO who reduced the runway strip width for a Code 3/4 runway from 150 metres to 140 metres. The outer edge of the strip is where the 1:7 transitional surface starts (often referred to as the side-slope), which should be obstacle free.

The problem was that the tail fin penetrated the 1:7 slope. It may still do so to a minor extent, if so the CAA appears to have accepted this as a permitted (temporary) obstacle.

[Wycombe]

There's every chance the runway work will not be done for a while given the bleak recession announcement.
It's not an announcement it's a forecast!

If everyone follows the current media-driven over-hyping of doom and gloom ahead, then it becomes a self-fulflilling prophecy. Maybe that's what people want....

Hopefully the Airport will take the longer term view.

[TCAS FAN]

Yes, A320's flew in and out for Spanair to Tenerife with a Tech stop outward at Nantes. Sorry no records of Azzura.
Spanair also used the Mad-Dog 83 as did Centennial LAC and Oasis (Palma)

Currently EZY use the A319 (that has derated engines) and the A320ceo on their GVA Ski flights - a short sector but has had occasional payload issues I heard.
Volotea have used the 319 for PMI and IBZ in the past -
I gather again occasional tech stops needed - previously they used the Boeing 717 (was the MD-95)

The most popular large aircraft seen at SOU on holiday IT's in the past was the 737-300 and 400, plus the 757-200.

Britannia 757s flew direct Tenerife, with the exception of I believe two southbound sectors when, due to headwinds, they had to make tech stops.

[stewyb]

I can only give you the example of Luton. Here a deal was signed by the airport owner to build a 2km link between the airports railway station and the terminal. The deal was valued at £225m. It is over a year late and the cost has risen to close to £300m. I doubt the company that wins the SOU contract will be locked into a price, as all building projects seem to go over budget.

With inflation set to be at 13% and the country going into a deep recession I would expect SOU to hold off starting any work, as interest rates on borrowed money could be substantial due to ever increasing base rates.

£300m versus £15m, mmm let me think. There will be no holding off a start and as I have mentioned previous, materials are on order and work shall commence once delivered. This small project (in comparison) is NOT dependant on any possible future recession/major interest rate rises et al!

[rog747]

Britannia 757s flew direct Tenerife, with the exception of I believe two southbound sectors when, due to headwinds, they had to make tech stops.


Yes, thanks TCAS,
the 757 can outperform almost anything as I am sure you know -
A fabulous aircraft - would still be ideal for SOU today too...
I think Monarch's also flew in and out of SOU + Hispania's too >? (not 100% on that one - sorry)

I worked for many years with the 757 with Monarch, Air Europe and Air Europa's, Britannia, Odyssey/Nationair, Hispania and IEA (a lovely little outfit)
Load it up 228-235 seats - fly to Palma or Alicante and back twice during the day, then off to the Maldives or Mombasa in the evening.

Thomsons' filled it from SOU - the market is still there I am sure.
Palmair had no issues filling 757's from BOH too - TFS PMI plus Luxor and Cairo day trips.
A frequent aircraft used also at EXT for IT's.

[rog747]

The other week when I Landed back at SOU with BA on a Saturday evening I have never seen so many Jets on the ramp or taxying at Southampton.

6 or 7 BA EMB's -
the KLM EMB and a couple of Eastern and Loganair EMB's
plus 2 or 3 (of the larger?) ATR Turboprops of the Channel Islands guys.

Incredible actually.

[Sotonsean]

Yes, A320's flew in and out for Spanair to Tenerife with a Tech stop outward at Nantes. Sorry no records of Azzura.
Spanair also used the Mad-Dog 83 as did Centennial LAC and Oasis (Palma)

Currently EZY use the A319 (that has derated engines) and the A320ceo on their GVA Ski flights - a short sector but has had occasional payload issues I heard.
Volotea have used the 319 for PMI and IBZ in the past -
I gather again occasional tech stops needed - previously they used the Boeing 717 (was the MD-95)

The most popular large aircraft seen at SOU on holiday IT's in the past was the 737-300 and 400, plus the 757-200.

I believe that the Azzura A320 calls were only on two occasions and not affiliated with any of the tour operators at the time. I can't remember off hand what year they visited Southampton but there's a photo online of one at the airport.

Rog
Spanair also operated to other Spanish airports other than Tenerife.

Here's a general overview of what we've seen at Southampton Airport over the years with regular flights by the following.

Air Berlin operated Boeing 737-800 to Paderborn, Germany
Air Europa operated Boeing 737-300/400 to various Spanish destination's on behalf of Thomson
Air Malta operated Boeing 737-300 to Malta on behalf of Newmarket HolidaysAustrian Airlines A319/320 to Innsbruck on behalf of Ingham's
BH Air operated A320 to Varna, Bulgaria on behalf of Balkan Holidays
Futura "occasionally" operated Boeing 737-300 on behalf of Thomson to Palma
​​​​​​Iberojet and later Evelop operated A320s into Southampton on behalf of Thomson.

There was a Portuguese airline using a Boeing 737-300 to Faro, Portugal operating on behalf of Thomson for one season and I'm thinking that it was around 1999/2000. It could well have been EuroAtlantic Airways.

​​​​​​And of course the previous and regular visits of TUI Boeing 737, 757s and the current A319/320 from easyJet and way back in 1981 regular weekly Caravelle flights to Palma by Transeuropa.

You've already mentioned the Centennial, Oasis and Spanair MD83s in 1998 and the Volotea A319 and Boeing 717.

​​​​​​

[rog747]

The Portuguese airline using a Boeing 737-300 to Faro, Portugal was iirc SATA (Azores)
and Thomsons used mainly the Air Europa 737-400 for quite a while.
Yes Spanair also did PMI and IBZ I recall 2004 A320's and MD-83.
Iberoworld with the A320 from 2004 (became Evelop and now Iberojet!)
I saw Iberworld's A320 depart and land on 02 - not a common occurrence, as the wind is usual in the other direction.

SOU 02 threshold (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-southampton-eastleigh-airport-from-the-air-177174523.html?imageid=64AE0932-42F5-443D-B2F7-9E90DF6E9DBA&p=10226&pn=1&searchId=9d5fc8088a2e3505efd871a761c15eca&searchtype=0)

Azzura A320 first visit of this aircraft to Eastleigh in 2003
Austrian Arrows and Tyrolean CRJ-200's were seen 2006 - on INN or SZG summer charters>?

So the mainstay has always really been the 737-200/300 and 400
plus the A320 and 757.
Now the EMB Jets rule along with some A319/A320.

Golden Oldies at SOU
As an aside I have just seen some nice photos of BMA C-4 Argonauts at Eastleigh 1966/67 on charters, plus Air Ferry DC-4 and DC-6 and BUA and Cambrian 1-11's.
Transavia Caravelles and 737-200's seem to frequent too.
Seen at SOU Aerolineas Argentinas Boeing 727-287 LV-MIM leased by Lineas Aereas Canaries for summer 1988.

[Sotonsean]

The Portuguese airline using a Boeing 737-300 to Faro, Portugal was iirc SATA (Azores)
and Thomsons used mainly the Air Europa 737-400 for quite a while.
Yes Spanair also did PMI and IBZ I recall 2004 A320's and MD-83.
Iberoworld with the A320 from 2004 (became Evelop and now Iberojet!)
I saw Iberworld's A320 depart and land on 02 - not a common occurrence, as the wind is usual in the other direction.

SOU 02 threshold (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-southampton-eastleigh-airport-from-the-air-177174523.html?imageid=64AE0932-42F5-443D-B2F7-9E90DF6E9DBA&p=10226&pn=1&searchId=9d5fc8088a2e3505efd871a761c15eca&searchtype=0)

Azzura A320 first visit of this aircraft to Eastleigh in 2003
Austrian Arrows and Tyrolean CRJ-200's were seen 2006 - on INN or SZG summer charters>?

So the mainstay has always really been the 737-200/300 and 400
plus the A320 and 757.
Now the EMB Jets rule along with some A319/A320.

Golden Oldies at SOU
As an aside I have just seen some nice photos of BMA C-4 Argonauts at Eastleigh 1966/67 on charters, plus Air Ferry DC-4 and DC-6 and BUA and Cambrian 1-11's.
Transavia Caravelles and 737-200's seem to frequent too.
Seen at SOU Aerolineas Argentinas Boeing 727-287 LV-MIM leased by Lineas Aereas Canaries for summer 1988.

I take it that your refering to the Air Britain website and the excellent Barry Friend catalogue of nostalgic photos taken at Southampton. They are indeed a treasure trove of photos and I do remember several of them from my youthful plane spotting days. Barry Friend the main author of those photos also has an excellent collection of photos amongst others on the BCAL nostalgia website at www.british-caledonian.com

[cavokblues]

Considering historically the routes on offer it does make you wonder why EZY haven't tried a few sun routes over the summer months at some point? A PMI, IBZ or a Malaga 2-3 times a week etc.

[SKOJB]

Considering historically the routes on offer it does make you wonder why EZY haven't tried a few sun routes over the summer months at some point? A PMI, IBZ or a Malaga 2-3 times a week etc.

If anything is tried post extension, your suggestion seems the most plausible from European bases

[rog747]

Considering historically the routes on offer it does make you wonder why EZY haven't tried a few sun routes over the summer months at some point? A PMI, IBZ or a Malaga 2-3 times a week etc.

I guess a small issue of the Pandemic for 3 seasons - aircraft all parked up and crews furloughed or left...plus Grant Shapps' debacle of Will we - or Won't we go on holiday?
EZY is not in great shape this year for all of those reasons and more airport problems in 2022, and so I really doubt they are anyway interested right now.
I reckon we will see 2024 as more convivial - I concur with SKOJB above

BA's summer sun routes were in the bag and planned pre-pandemic and they decided to still ''go for it'' last summer 2021 with limited success -
This year they came back - It seems so far to be very happy camping for them at SOU....
They are back for 2023 adding Florence and Nice.

[Pain in the R's]

So is that small extension to the runway really going to make a big difference? As read here, SOU has a history of jet aircraft flying to European hot spots. The proposed new length still means many routes will still be off limits.

[Wycombe]

They are back for 2023 adding Florence and Nice

Those routes started earlier in this Summer season, but didn't last long (in case you didn't know)

[Rivet Joint]

I believe that the Azzura A320 calls were only on two occasions and not affiliated with any of the tour operators at the time. I can't remember off hand what year they visited Southampton but there's a photo online of one at the airport.

Rog
Spanair also operated to other Spanish airports other than Tenerife.

Here's a general overview of what we've seen at Southampton Airport over the years with regular flights by the following.

Air Berlin operated Boeing 737-800 to Paderborn, Germany
Air Europa operated Boeing 737-300/400 to various Spanish destination's on behalf of Thomson
Air Malta operated Boeing 737-300 to Malta on behalf of Newmarket HolidaysAustrian Airlines A319/320 to Innsbruck on behalf of Ingham's
BH Air operated A320 to Varna, Bulgaria on behalf of Balkan Holidays
Futura "occasionally" operated Boeing 737-300 on behalf of Thomson to Palma
​​​​​​Iberojet and later Evelop operated A320s into Southampton on behalf of Thomson.

There was a Portuguese airline using a Boeing 737-300 to Faro, Portugal operating on behalf of Thomson for one season and I'm thinking that it was around 1999/2000. It could well have been EuroAtlantic Airways.

​​​​​​And of course the previous and regular visits of TUI Boeing 737, 757s and the current A319/320 from easyJet and way back in 1981 regular weekly Caravelle flights to Palma by Transeuropa.

You've already mentioned the Centennial, Oasis and Spanair MD83s in 1998 and the Volotea A319 and Boeing 717.

​​​​​​

I saw that there was a football charter the other week using a CRJ-900. Whilst I’m sure it wasn’t fully loaded, I didn’t know they could operate from SOU. Anyone know if this is the first time one has been in?

[rog747]

Cheers,
I know they were on sale - but did they actually start ? -
Back in May, I was about to book FLR for next month and it disappeared off sale the next day! I was fuming lol

Re BCAF NCE and FLR summer 2022....Wycombe

[rog747]

Re the Footie charter CRJ-900 the other week - was it the Iberia one due >?

If so, it ended up operating in and out of Bournemouth.

[SKOJB]

Good to see BACF returning for S23 with a similar schedule to this year and as mentioned above, FLR and NCE return, it all points to loads and yields doing ok!

[Albert Hall]

CRJ700 performance for SOU is OK but you can carry fewer passengers on a 900 than you can a 700. Basically you’ve got the same stopping power for a heavier aircraft so the payload is more limiting.

[zantopst]

Re the Footie charter CRJ-900 the other week - was it the Iberia one due >?

If so, it ended up operating in and out of Bournemouth.

the Iberia flights used a CRJ-1000 and operated out of Hurn. The Global Reach aviation CRJ-900 operated the flights out of Southampton

[Wycombe]

Cheers,
I know they were on sale - but did they actually start ? -
Back in May, I was about to book FLR for next month and it disappeared off sale the next day! I was fuming lol

Re BCAF NCE and FLR summer 2022....Wycombe
I believe they did both start but only ran for a few weeks (please correct me if anyone else knows better)

[rjrm]

After having a quick browse of the CAA statistics for June, SOU seems to be behind compared to other airports. Whilst having different carriers at the airport can be a good thing, I feel that Loganair and Eastern just don't have enough brand presence to really get a higher throughput of passengers through the doors.

[adfly]

Judging by the timings Flybe are to base a Q400 at Southampton from 02/03 operating the following flights:

Edinburgh - 7 weekly
Glasgow - 7 weekly
Manchester - 12 weekly (1x Sat/Sun)

Belfast City continues 7 weekly.

Hopefully a more reliable operator for the Manchester route than Eastern (and more chances of interlining options from there?), and the Scottish routes aren't timed well for business travel, but scooping up some of the leisure and vfr market may lead to Loganair offering a few more lower fares up there. One daily flight to each is hopefully a nice boost to capacity without dumping, at least for now...

[willy wombat]

Sounds like a licence to lose money. I assume the Scottish routes will be mid day between the MAN flights so low yield.

[TartinTon]

Sounds like a licence to lose money. I assume the Scottish routes will be mid day between the MAN flights so low yield.

You have a real axe to grind against Flybe, eh wombat? That and no clue as to what works on the SOU-Scotland markets....

[willy wombat]

Not so much an axe to grind as a belief that Flybe V2 is at its core a slot scam. I can see no other reason a VC would have put the money in. And in the meantime, while the slot scam plays out, the company’s route selection risks damaging the likes of Loganair, Eastern etc which could in the long term reduce, not increase, competition.

[Wycombe]

Not so much an axe to grind as a belief that Flybe V2 is at its core a slot scam. I can see no other reason a VC would have put the money in. And in the meantime, while the slot scam plays out, the company’s route selection risks damaging the likes of Loganair, Eastern etc which could in the long term reduce, not increase, competition.
Eastern seem to do a pretty good job at damaging themselves!

Logan offer a decent product/service but at prices that are just too high for a lot of leisure travellers.

Hopefully Flybe will find a niche here (initially) with more price sensitive leisure and business travellers that don't need to be on the early and late flights.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Eastern seem to do a pretty good job at damaging themselves!

Logan offer a decent product/service but at prices that are just too high for a lot of leisure travellers.

Hopefully Flybe will find a niche here (initially) with more price sensitive leisure and business travellers that don't need to be on the early and late flights.
All flybe will do is make inroads into Loganair's existing traffic, there's not enough room for both operators to make a decent margin . If you want high frequency you need higher fares, some low fares WILL be essential for volume and are available. flybe's entry is an attempt to get Loganair off "their" old turf, there's no scope for both IMHO. How many times has SOU been round THAT merry go round now? SOU was also Loganair's turf back when they bought the Jetstream 31 and 41. If you want to serve SOU-Scotland you will need to offer 2-3 daily, the notion that flybe2 will simply serve the off peak leisure market is unlikely, it it more likely that one operator will leave the market.

[Wycombe]

the notion that flybe2 will simply serve the off peak leisure market is unlikely, it it more likely that one operator will leave the market.

....and that's why I said "initially" as ultimately you'd imagine that Flybe would like to become the dominant operator. Sensible to start small, try to build a niche and use that as a basis for expansion.

No doubt that will happen if they can provide a decent service at a decent price (in a way that works from a business perspective also!)

[wanna]

Flybe V1 went to war with LM and look how that ended. Granted it was on LM home turf but SOU is arguably LMs (even if thats still fairly 'new'). They have put a lot of effort into establishing themselves at SOU and work with both Blue Islands and Aurigny on codeshare flights, the three of them have their alliance to stave off competitors.

[SKOJB]

Flybe V1 went to war with LM and look how that ended. Granted it was on LM home turf but SOU is arguably LMs (even if thats still fairly 'new'). They have put a lot of effort into establishing themselves at SOU and work with both Blue Islands and Aurigny on codeshare flights, the three of them have their alliance to stave off competitors.

Not to mention a BA codeshare so things will not be easy for BE. Loads I understand are good on SOU LM flights even at high prices and doubt one daily by BE outside of core hours is likely to rock the LM boat (at present)!

[Hial Flyer]

Not to mention a BA codeshare so things will not be easy for BE. Loads I understand are good on SOU LM flights even at high prices and doubt one daily by BE out of core hours is likely to rock the LM boat (at present)!

I use the LM service to GLA often and its usually fairly busy. They are more expensive compared to the old Flybe but the service is way better. In the last year or two of Flybe on the GLA service, i dreaded using them as the customer service experience was appalling/ I'll definately be sticking with LM when the competition arrives.

[Rivet Joint]

Good to see MAN as Eastern have been a disgrace on that route. Just need Emerald to start DUB and SOU can be shot of them.

I get the annoyance with the Scottish routes but Logan have had plenty of time to move their ops to better equipment which would enable them to lower the ticket prices. There were many ex Flybe Q400s lying around and plenty of crews to fly them. Had they done that then new Flybe probably wouldn’t have a chance. Expect them to increase frequencies when their fleet grows and push Logan out. A shame but their own fault really. Who still flies 145s in Europe?

[oapilot]

Good to see MAN as Eastern have been a disgrace on that route. Just need Emerald to start DUB and SOU can be shot of them.

I get the annoyance with the Scottish routes but Logan have had plenty of time to move their ops to better equipment which would enable them to lower the ticket prices. There were many ex Flybe Q400s lying around and plenty of crews to fly them. Had they done that then new Flybe probably wouldn’t have a chance. Expect them to increase frequencies when their fleet grows and push Logan out. A shame but their own fault really. Who still flies 145s in Europe?

I believe Logan did take a good hard look and decided that the Q400 really wasn’t better equipment. Time will tell.

[Saabdriver1]

Good to see MAN as Eastern have been a disgrace on that route. Just need Emerald to start DUB and SOU can be shot of them.

I get the annoyance with the Scottish routes but Logan have had plenty of time to move their ops to better equipment which would enable them to lower the ticket prices. There were many ex Flybe Q400s lying around and plenty of crews to fly them. Had they done that then new Flybe probably wouldn’t have a chance. Expect them to increase frequencies when their fleet grows and push Logan out. A shame but their own fault really. Who still flies 145s in Europe?

We were apparently offered a load of Q400s when Flybe fell over, and even at zero lease rentals, the chief said they weren't cheap enough! They're horribly complex aircraft requiring massive engineering support. And why would you take on the complexity of another fleet and lots more pilots during a pandemic!! Short memory methinks. With ATRs already in the fleet by then and commonality across pax & freighter ops, sticking with the ATRs and the jets is just fine and gives elbow room to compete on frequency or seat cost as needed. The Embraers burn fuel but when you own them outright, it does change the numbers.

[RW20]

£300m versus £15m, mmm let me think. There will be no holding off a start and as I have mentioned previous, materials are on order and work shall commence once delivered. This small project (in comparison) is NOT dependant on any possible future recession/major interest rate rises et al!
No mention of any start time for this rwy extension still,is it going to happen?
Surely 2023/24 is going to be hard for all airlines,with less people having disposable income for Sun holidays
Smaller airports like SOU are going to find it tough,so any financial investment in a runway extension must now be questionable to say the least!

[vectisman]

In a forward thinking country or company for that matter that is exactly the time to carry out improvements. You are then ready to take advantage of the upturn.

[SKOJB]

Surely after 2 years fighting through the courts and money spent thus far, the owners will not now decide to hold off commencing this project, utter lunacy and instead is an investment for the future!

[commit aviation]

The money invested in most cases needs to make an immediate return. Heading into a potential recession, they may choose to delay.
To counter your argument, STN has planning approval after a court battle but they don't appear to have started building just yet. Maybe they have decided it is wiser to hold off until there is some certainty on economic conditions next year. Some might consider that not to do so is utter lunacy.

[SKOJB]

Difference between SOU and many other airport projects, this one is crucial to its short term financial viability. It requires a runway extension asap in order to attract some additional leisure routes as well as better existing airline operability. Don’t think the airports owners can hang around too long without this work being completed when their break even is 1.1m pax and current projections look closer to 600k!

[SotonFlightpath]

With the huge escalation in home and business energy costs, the rise in everyday fuel and transport costs faced by most families and the very steep rise in food and other household costs we are going to see an exceptionally big decline in all kinds of leisure travel - visiting friends and families, city breaks and traditional holidays.
With the increase in energy costs even more apparent in the commercial sector, where the wholesale spot price of electricity was 87p per KWh on Friday, I would imagine that any prudent business would look very cautiously at spending at the moment. For example the cost of heating and lighting at the terminal and throughout the airport is likely to rise by a factor of perhaps as much as 10 over the next 8 months, and I think we are likely to see a big decline in aviation and passenger numbers over this period too.
I think any business would do well to 'batten down the hatches' for the next couple of years - one only has to look at Southend to appreciate how quickly markets can change.
The good times will return in time, but the coming couple of years will present as much of a challenge for aviation as COVID did.

[SWBKCB]

Well, anybody who knows isn't going to be saying here, so lets not feed the troll, eh?

[Rivet Joint]

Well, anybody who knows isn't going to be saying here, so lets not feed the troll, eh?

Unfortunately there seem to be people that take the bait every time. Those who have posted above please be aware that this poster is just trying to stir things up. The mods really should ban him, assuming it is a human and not a bot.

It takes time to plan works of this nature and get all the resources required. Most building projects are struggling to get resources and are running behind schedule. Nothing to see here.

on a side note, 4 flights a day now to Belfast. I wonder who will give first. Be interesting to see the numbers per airline.

[Alteagod]

Tbh I would say T3 have all but given up on BHD which is a shame given they one of first carriers back post covid.

[Albert Hall]

It looks like T3 have all but given up on MAN as well - restart date after the summer break now pushed back from September 12 to October 3. With Flybe coming along in March (if they do what they've said) then you wonder if Eastern will re-start it or not.

[stewyb]

Aer Lingus Regional to operate SOU - DUB daily from 30th October, another blow to Eastern’s continuation on several SOU routes!

[Rivet Joint]

Aer Lingus Regional to operate SOU - DUB daily from 30th October, another blow to Eastern’s continuation on several SOU routes!

Great news! Was hoping they would do this route. Much better than Belfast for the EI codeshare.

[stewyb]

EZY release S23 flights next week, maybe SOU will see the odd seasonal sun route added?

[planedrive]

Generally new routes aren't announced at the same time as the schedule release, you'll have to wait till towards the end of the year for anything new. There are still new EZY routes for winter to be announced yet! ( Unfortunately not from SOU as far as I'm aware.)

[RW20]

There's no chance of Easy announcing any Sun route for 2023,it might have been possible in the past: pre -recession.In addition the proposed runway extension ( when it finally happens) will not be complete for 2023 season.

[stewyb]

There's no chance of Easy announcing any Sun route for 2023,it might have been possible in the past: pre -recession.In addition the proposed runway extension ( when it finally happens) will not be complete for 2023 season.

To be fair, you have been wrong on every other airport related matter so I guess there is a chance you could also be on this one, lol!

[SKOJB]

To be fair, you have been wrong on every other airport related matter so I guess there is a chance you could also be on this one, lol!

Very good. Wouldn’t be surprised if easy/Jet2/TUI rocked up in some capacity over the next few months as the runway is supposed to be ready for next summer

[willy wombat]

I’d be very surprised if there was any action from any of these until it is 100% definite that the extension is done and all the new distances, obstacles etc finalised.

[RW20]

To be fair, you have been wrong on every other airport related matter so I guess there is a chance you could also be on this one, lol!
I can only refer to your 5/8 which states:
£300m versus £15m, mmm let me think. There will be no holding off a start and as I have mentioned previous, materials are on order and work shall commence once delivered. This small project (in comparison) is NOT dependant on any possible future recession/major interest rate rises et al!
Well no notifications from this date,can you give all of us an update on start as obviously you have privy Knowledge of the project.

stewyb is offline

[gkmeech]

There's no chance of Easy announcing any Sun route for 2023,it might have been possible in the past: pre -recession.In addition the proposed runway extension ( when it finally happens) will not be complete for 2023 season.

Plan is for it to be completed by end of April 2023. Remains to be seen if they can achieve that.

[TCAS FAN]

I’d be very surprised if there was any action from any of these until it is 100% definite that the extension is done and all the new distances, obstacles etc finalised.

Speculative declared distances were listed in the Planning Application. Hopefully AGS have already spoken to SARG to seek their agreement in principal to them.

The obstacle environment for both runways is already in the public domain, via current published ICAO Type A Charts.

That only leaves actual construction and a subsequent "as built" check survey by AGS's aviation surveyor to secure SARG approval and formal "notification" via NOTAM and AIP change. Once the NOTAM goes out its legal, or should I say "100% definite"?

If I were an aircraft operator I would at this stage be planning what I could do with the extended runway, and even penciling in some destinations for next year.

[Albert Hall]

I'm led to believe that you won't see this until a year from now and so likelihood of it being operable for Summer 2023 is zero.

[gkmeech]

I'm led to believe that you won't see this until a year from now and so likelihood of it being operable for Summer 2023 is zero.

Did you not read my post above re the current plans?

[stewyb]

First visit today of a E195 E2 of KLM and sure the airport will see many more of these next generation jets in the not too distant future!

[Rivet Joint]

First visit today of a E195 E2 of KLM and sure the airport will see many more of these next generation jets in the not too distant future!

Yes saw that. I wonder if it can operate without restrictions unlike the previous 195s Flybe used. I know it’s recently been in and out of LCY so it must have better performance.

Was in town when it departed and I must say it is incredibly quiet. Night and day between it and the previous generation. Makes a mockery of the idiots thinking bigger planes means more noise. Quite the opposite.

[rog747]

Re the KLM SOU-AMS service I had seen not long ago, that the route was to go back to twice daily.

But I have just tried to book SOU- NBO -SOU for next March and sadly the only connection from SOU to AMS is the late afternoon departure, which is no good because NBO is a morning Day flight from AMS, and then a Night flight back to AMS,
thus the normally well timed Schiphol connections are useless :(

Would anyone know please, if the 2 a day service will come back, and when - Thanks (or it has to be LCY or LHR or possibly BRS)

[zantopst]

Re the KLM SOU-AMS service I had seen not long ago, that the route was to go back to twice daily.

But I have just tried to book SOU- NBO -SOU for next March and sadly the only connection from SOU to AMS is the late afternoon departure, which is no good because NBO is a morning Day flight from AMS, and then a Night flight back to AMS,
thus the normally well timed Schiphol connections are useless :(

Would anyone know please, if the 2 a day service will come back, and when - Thanks (or it has to be LCY or LHR or possibly BRS)

which dates are you looking at. I have just randomly picked a couple of dates in February and in March and all dates had 2 flights per day. I am flying Sou -sxm -Sou over Christmas and had the choice of 2 flights per day. That might change but at present I am out in the late flight and back on the morning flight.

[rog747]

which dates are you looking at. I have just randomly picked a couple of dates in February and in March and all dates had 2 flights per day. I am flying Sou -sxm -Sou over Christmas and had the choice of 2 flights per day. That might change but at present I am out in the late flight and back on the morning flight.

Thank you, yes I do now see there are -
Indeed 2 daily KLM flights - 0920 and 1720
but it seems up to only until 25 MAR then goes back to one per day at 1720

Sadly on my outbound 21 MAR the 0920 arrives AMS at 1125 and NBO departs 1150 ouch!

On the way back on 29 MAR we land AMS at 0715, but there is only the late afternoon back to SOU at 1640

So it will be most likely be LCY or LHR with KLM (or AF LHR via CDG only)

I am using up my zillions of Virgin Flying Club points to take my sister on a Kenya 'Out of Africa' Safari with Business Class flights (VS is a spend points partner with KL/AF)
Or, for the outbound I have enough Avios for BA non stop LHR-NBO flight in WT+ which is fine for an 8 hours Day flight, and do Business Class for the night flight home.

[Rivet Joint]

Thank you, yes I do now see there are -
Indeed 2 daily KLM flights - 0920 and 1720
but it seems up to only until 25 MAR then goes back to one per day at 1720

Sadly on my outbound 21 MAR the 0920 arrives AMS at 1125 and NBO departs 1150 ouch!

On the way back on 29 MAR we land AMS at 0715, but there is only the late afternoon back to SOU at 1640

So it will be most likely be LCY or LHR with KLM (or AF LHR via CDG only)

I am using up my zillions of Virgin Flying Club points to take my sister on a Kenya 'Out of Africa' Safari with Business Class flights (VS is a spend points partner with KL/AF)
Or, for the outbound I have enough Avios for BA non stop LHR-NBO flight in WT+ which is fine for an 8 hours Day flight, and do Business Class for the night flight home.

I wonder if it has something to do with the Dutch government enforcing less flights at AMS. I guess after 25 March is when the peak summer period starts so KL can’t spare slots for two flights for SOU. Shame as it absolutely can support it and people like you are not able to use the route despite wanting to.

[rog747]

I wonder if it has something to do with the Dutch government enforcing less flights at AMS. I guess after 25 March is when the peak summer period starts so KL can’t spare slots for two flights for SOU. Shame as it absolutely can support it and people like you are not able to use the route despite wanting to.

I have just been reading that Schiphol transfers and security are a mess with hours of queues and chaos, missed bags etc - Kinda puts me off although March is a long way off, might do CDG on the way home then.

[zantopst]

I have just been reading that Schiphol transfers and security are a mess with hours of queues and chaos, missed bags etc - Kinda puts me off although March is a long way off, might do CDG on the way home then.

yes have read this as well. Should be ok on the outbound to SXM as we are travelling Sou-Ams on the later flight and spending the night at Amsterdam so can check in very early next day. Home journey to Sou we have a 50 min transfer at AMS so not really expecting to make that but you never know.

[RW20]

it seems Albert Hall was correct,the extension has no start date until sometime in 2023,
're quote from airport manager below:


Mr Szalay told the event he was concerned about finding the staff required to keep up with demand.

“When I speak to people in the construction industry, finding the right skills and building the runway extension next year is going to be a challenge. But once that’s built, the staff that take us up from 700 to 2,000, where are they coming from?” he added.

[SWBKCB]

But once that’s built, the staff that take us up from 700 to 2,000

Where do these numbers come from - is this to get back to pre-Covid levels, for expansion (quite a jump!) or a combination of both?

[Sharklet_321]

I would love to see SOU get back to 2m pax a year but if 1.3m of those pax are coming from a 3 aircraft LCC base that's a hell of a lot of flying with very little ramp space - they need to sort out the stands. Otherwise bussing to/from remote stands near the control tower and other associated infrastructure requirements is probably what their referring to in terms of staffing to be able to deal with it.

[rog747]

Steve, the Ops Director at SOU rightly has concerns that when the runway is done expansion hopefully will see pre-covid disaster levels of passengers and services return to SOU which could he says, need 2000 staff to make the airport function.
Where will he get these folk from >???

When I spoke to him in June this year at the start of the summer, he had just managed to get just over 400 staff on stream and was just ''coping'' OK even with the 7 or 8 BA Cityflyers in and out over every weekend which is of course '''peaks and troughs''' but you still need the manpower.

[RW20]

Steve, the Ops Director at SOU rightly has concerns that when the runway is done expansion hopefully will see pre-covid disaster levels of passengers and services return to SOU which could he says, need 2000 staff to make the airport function.
Where will he get these folk from >???

When I spoke to him in June this year at the start of the summer, he had just managed to get just over 400 staff on stream and was just ''coping'' OK even with the 7 or 8 BA Cityflyers in and out over every weekend which is of course '''peaks and troughs''' but you still need the manpower.
unfortunately there has been very little stated on stand upgrade,just runway extension!
With the financial downturn,will there be the demand needed to support the hoped increase of Summer hotspots available due to a LCC coming on board ?
I very much doubt it!
The Planned extension will not be live to at least the 2024 season at best,that's a long way off with today's world turmoil.

[shamrock7seal]

If DSA can’t cut it with 160,000 pax in a month how on earth is SOU making it work with 70,000? One could argue there is even more peripheral business at DSA than SOU too. It desperately needs to get on with the extension.

Does SOU earn any income from the land it sold off to the Royal Mail?

[Albert Hall]

If DSA was charging airlines £5 per pax and SOU is charging £10, the airport income will be much the same despite the vastly lower pax volumes. And it will need fewer security staff, terminal facilities to handle that smaller volume so probably will be a lot closer to profitability (or at least break even) than DSA. Volume isn’t everything.

[TCAS FAN]

.......

Does SOU earn any income from the land it sold off to the Royal Mail?

Time for a reality check. The airport was previously owned by entrepreneur Nat Somers, who funded the laying of the hard (concrete) runway. It was subsequently sold to a property investor Gazeley. They divided the original site into three parcels of land, the north east corner which has remained undeveloped apart from location of the "SAM" VOR/DME, the current airport site and the area adjacent to the airport main entrance which now includes the Royal Mail Building, hotel, Mercedes car dealership and other buildings.

At the time of sale Airports UK Ltd (a subsidiary of BAA Plc) were contracted by Nat Somers to run the airport. BAA Plc then purchased two of the parcels of land from Gazeley, the NE corner and the current airport site. They have never owned the third parcel of land, something that they, and subsequent airport owners, have come to regret. The ideal place the expand the apron and even build Terminal 2?

[SKOJB]

Time for a reality check. The airport was previously owned by entrepreneur Nat Somers, who funded the laying of the hard (concrete) runway. It was subsequently sold to a property investor Gazeley. They divided the original site into three parcels of land, the north east corner which has remained undeveloped apart from location of the "SAM" VOR/DME, the current airport site and the area adjacent to the airport main entrance which now includes the Royal Building, hotel, Mercedes car dealership and other buildings.

At the time of sale Airports UK Ltd (a subsidiary of BAA Plc) were contracted by NAT Somers to run the airport. BAA Plc then purchased two of the parcels of land from Gazeley, the NE corner and the current airport site. They never owned the third parcel of land, something that they, and subsequent airport owners, have come to regret. The ideal place the expand the apron and even build Terminal 2?

Not sure about a 2nd terminal but definitely could have added 4-5 A320 size stands

[RW20]

Indeed the CAA figures are poor compared to all the UK regional airports,Bournemouth continue to out perform there Southampton neighbours.Considering the fact that Cityflyer have operated for two years now,one wonders what Pax figures would have been without them?
2023 won't be much different as the runway extension will not be complete for Summer opps.

[gkmeech]

I thought the plan was to have the runway extension completed by end of April 2023, also there will be one less stand on southern side of the terminal in order to be able to handle three A320 size aircraft.

[SWBKCB]

With no start date set. doesn't sound like it's going to be ready for April 2023

In some of his first public comments since the court decision, Southampton Airport operations director Steve Szalay said the number of jobs at the airport would rise from the current 700 to around 2,000 when the airport reaches its goal of three million passengers a year. The jobs will range from cleaners to pilots, with many in ground services such as baggage handling and security. He said: “It’s just a huge opportunity.”

He said the runway extension would go ahead in 2023, although the exact date could depend on the supply of labour. Plans agreed with the council mean the airport cannot reach three million passengers until 2029. “It’s steady growth,” said Mr Szalay. The number of passengers using the airport slumped to 200,000 amid the Covid crisis in 2021. “In 2019, there were two million people through the airport. If we can put the flights on, they will come back,” said Mr Szalay. “The more activity, the more staff required. It’s an exciting time.”


Mr Szalay told the event he was concerned about finding the staff required to keep up with demand. “When I speak to people in the construction industry, finding the right skills and building the runway extension next year is going to be a challenge. But once that’s built, the staff that take us up from 700 to 2,000, where are they coming from?” he added.

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/22812350.southampton-airport-seeks-three-million-passengers-year-2-000-staff-green-businesses/

[Contacttower]

Is it known what increase in declared distances for RW02/20 the extension will result in? Presumably it will extend the TODA/TORA for RW02 but LDA will remain the same? What is the impact on TODA and LDA for RW02?

[stewyb]

Is it known what increase in declared distances for RW02/20 the extension will result in? Presumably it will extend the TODA/TORA for RW02 but LDA will remain the same? What is the impact on TODA and LDA for RW02?

thanks to TCAS FAN for the comparison with SEN

SOU RWY 02 (M) (SEN RWY 05)
TORA 1745 (1739)
TODA 1805 (1799)
ASDA 1745 (1739)
LDA 1673 (1604)

SOU RWY 20 (M) (SEN RWY 23)
TORA 1814 (1739)
TODA 1874 (1799)
ASDA 1814 (1799)
LDA 1605 (1604)

[TCAS FAN]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/22812350.southampton-airport-seeks-three-million-passengers-year-2-000-staff-green-businesses/

An interesting quote from the Echo article:

"Speaking at the Business (http://dailyecho.co.uk/business) South conference in Southampton, he (ie the Airport Ops Director) said more attention would shift to the Navigator Quarter – the land to the east and north of the airport that is earmarked for businesses as part of the Solent Freeport."

How is it going to be accessed by road? Without the runway extension maybe, with the runway extension it's going to be an expensive proposition, which I suspect will need a cutting. Hope nobody has forgotten the large gas pipeline that runs along the northern airport boundary! Could the current road infrastructure (ie thorough the airport main entrance) support multiple articulated lorries 24/7?

Just found the "Navigator Quarter" Master Plan: Apparently access via north of the runway, very little other detail on road access.

https://www.navigatorquarter.co.uk/location/

[stewyb]

An interesting quote from the Echo article:

"Speaking at the Business (http://dailyecho.co.uk/business) South conference in Southampton, he (ie the Airport Ops Director) said more attention would shift to the Navigator Quarter – the land to the east and north of the airport that is earmarked for businesses as part of the Solent Freeport."

One question, how is it going to be accessed by road? Without the runway extension maybe, with the runway extension it's going to be an expensive proposition unless the owners of the rail yard are onboard and willing to donate land. Even then I doubt that the current road infrastructure (ie thorough the airport main entrance) could support multiple articulated lorries 24/7.

An alternative, access via the airport east side and creation of the the missing M27 Jct 6?

Is there a Master Plan that I have missed?

I thought the original plan was for a tunnel under the extension joining up the NE corner, however this was never in the planning application and would surely be too prohibitive/expensive once the runway extension is laid down. I still remain to be convinced if this part of the airport will ever be developed upon. Whispers building works are starting later this month

[TCAS FAN]

I thought the original plan was for a tunnel under the extension joining up the NE corner, however this was never in the planning application and would surely be too prohibitive/expensive once the runway extension is laid down. I still remain to be convinced if this part of the airport will ever be developed upon. Whispers building works are starting later this month

Stewyb

I had missed the Master Plan. Post subsequently edited after I found it.

AGS Airports (ie SOU owners) behind the project. They are going to need very deep pockets to get this development going!

As I note in my edited post, the intent is to put the access road in a cutting. It does not however indicate how the access road links up with the current highway infrastructure.

When Bl***y Awful Airports Plc bought the land they apparently thought it would be a very lucrative investment. At the time a new SE bypass for Eastleigh, between Bishopstoke Road and Southampton Road, was being planned. This was intended to provide the necessary access. However, this was dropped when it was realized that the cost was prohibitive due to a need for multiple river crossing bridges.

[stewyb]

Thanks TCAS, hadn't seen the Navigator Quarter link before. The obvious thing that stands out is all traffic being directed along the airport access road, can’t see that ever being approved. With regards to funding, assume this would come from Solent Freeport/central gov and EBC with AGS offering the land?

[TCAS FAN]

Thanks TCAS, hadn't seen the Navigator Quarter link before. The obvious thing that stands out is all traffic being directed along the airport access road, can’t see that ever being approved. With regards to funding, assume this would come from Solent Freeport/central gov and EBC with AGS offering the land?

Stewy

EBC currently have enough financial problems to worry about before considering involvement in Navigator.

With the “SAM” VOR’s life coming to an end looks as if income from the NE corner will only be a cut (please excuse pun) from the hay making revenue for the foreseeable future?

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
You mention that the VOR DME life is coming to the end,this surely has an impact on approach aids especially with 20 which doesn't have RNav approach procedures,given that if the ILS is U/S what aid is available,and indeed 02 would have just Rnav approaches.

[TCAS FAN]

TCAS FAN
You mention that the VOR DME life is coming to the end,this surely has an impact on approach aids especially with 20 which doesn't have RNav approach procedures,given that if the ILS is U/S what aid is available,and indeed 02 would have just Rnav approaches.
Stewy

The impact on RWY 20 IAP will be minimal for CAT C aircraft (E190/195, E145, A319/320, B737) when the plug is pulled on the VOR/DME.

Rather than bore you with the technical criteria for instrument approach procedure design, because of the offset location of the VOR/DME relative to the RWY 20 final approach track it is not possible to meet design criteria for an approach to the runway. Instead the current procedure is an approach to the airport, ie a cloud break procedure which (weather permitting) will permit visual manoeuvring onto the final approach track. Consequently the approach minima is relatively high (OCA 890 FT AMSL).

Until an RNAV approach is provided the only option for a CAT C aircraft, in order to get the lowest minima is an NDB/LOC IAP using the "EAS" NDB. This gives an OCA 510 FT AMSL, still more than double the current ILS minima (OCA 237 FT).

An RNAV approach will not (with current UK restrictions on use) match the ILS minima, however there could be an improvement on the current NDB/LOC minima.

An NDB/LOC IAP is available for RWY 02 if the RNAV IAP is not available,

[adfly]

Loganair are increasing Edinburgh and Glasgow to 30 weekly next summer - 5x daily on weekdays. Extra early morning out, early evening back service to Edinburgh and mid evening out, late evening back service to Glasgow. 1 E145 will overnight at Southampton on weekdays for this.

Pre-empting any Flybe increases I imagine. It also should not be forgotten that the runway extension should help Loganair out in more extreme conditions, as there have been a few cases of them having to offload bags and people on some flights this summer.

[RW20]

Loganair are increasing Edinburgh and Glasgow to 30 weekly next summer - 5x daily on weekdays. Extra early morning out, early evening back service to Edinburgh and mid evening out, late evening back service to Glasgow. 1 E145 will overnight at Southampton on weekdays for this.

Pre-empting any Flybe increases I imagine. It also should not be forgotten that the runway extension should help Loganair out in more extreme conditions, as there have been a few cases of them having to offload bags and people on some flights this summer.
Adfly
This is good news,however as been quoted before the runway extension has no start date,indeed the airport manager has said it will start in 2023, so the Summer operations will still be affected by summer heat!
There's been many comments about materials already ordered,completion by April for the extension for example,however the airport.manager has confirmed that he is still sourcing materials,Labour for example!
At best it looks like completion for Winter 2023/24.
With a loss of over 4 million this year the airport needs to expand to survive.

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
as always a great review of the airport.aids,it's clear that the airport.needs to.upgrade there aids
For example Southend a similar sized airport.has ILS on both ends of the runway,as Southampton needs to expand to.survive and any LCC will require the best aids for operation to avoid extra costs on diversions

[SKOJB]

RW20

I agree that the airport cannot wait any longer to get the extension complete and in to action. A few posts above have suggested work commences this month, no idea if this is correct but the airport certainly cannot endure another summer season and beyond of £4m+ losses!

[Albert Hall]

Those Loganair increases look pretty positive. The airport must be pleased that it no longer has all of its eggs in one basket as it had with Flybe, particularly when the bottom falls out of said basket.

Everything I am hearing is runway extension not available until very late next year so all operators will be needing to make do with what they have for next summer. I just hope that the work doesn't result in a temporary reduction in the declared distances to coincide with the peak summer temperatures - that could make life really tricky. I gather even the ATR72 can be limited off to JER or GCI when everything goes against you with temperature, wind and QNH.

[Wycombe]

For example Southend a similar sized airport.has ILS on both ends of the runway,as Southampton needs to expand to

There are others on here who I suspect will know much better, but I don't think an ILS is possible on 02 at SOU?

[MARKEYD]

gather even the ATR72 can be limited off to JER or GCI when everything goes against you with temperature, wind and QNH


It sure can down here in Jersey, shocking that bags are left behind in Southampton on such a short flight in the heights of summer
Very poor

[gkmeech]

Adfly
This is good news,however as been quoted before the runway extension has no start date,indeed the airport manager has said it will start in 2023, so the Summer operations will still be affected by summer heat!
There's been many comments about materials already ordered,completion by April for the extension for example,however the airport.manager has confirmed that he is still sourcing materials,Labour for example!
At best it looks like completion for Winter 2023/24.
With a loss of over 4 million this year the airport needs to expand to survive.

I think runway work will start this month

[dixi188]

I suspect the reason that 02 can't have an ILS is due to all the metal in the railway yards at the northern boundary affecting a localiser signal.

[TCAS FAN]

There are others on here who I suspect will know much better, but I don't think an ILS is possible on 02 at SOU?

An ILS on RWY 02 has always been of dubious value due to the impact of the hill at Townhill Park. This would have a significant impact on IAP minima.

With the RWY extension and a blast fence being installed (according to the Planning Application) immediately north of it, there will be nowhere to site an ILS Localiser, so ILS on RWY 02 is a non-starter.

As there is a worldwide shift away from the expense of ground based radio navigation aids the answer for both SOU runways are RNAV IAP, augmented by satellite data to provide vertical as well as lateral guidance. Until June 2021 the latter was available to the UK via the EU EGNOS system. This provided a much improved minima for the current RNAV IAP on RWY 02, unfortunately no longer available due to the UK being unable to agree terms for access to EGNOS.

There may well be a long term solution for the UK, either access to EGNOS or access to an alternative system, both apparently vastly expensive.

[Wycombe]

An ILS on RWY 02 has always been of dubious value due to the impact of the hill at Townhill Park. This would have a significant impact on IAP minima.

With the RWY extension and a blast fence being installed (according to the Planning Application) immediately north of it, there will be nowhere to site an ILS Localiser, so ILS on RWY 02 is a non-starter.

As there is a worldwide shift away from the expense of ground based radio navigation aids the answer for both SOU runways are RNAV IAP, augmented by satellite data to provide vertical as well as lateral guidance. Until June 2021 the latter was available to the UK via the EU EGNOS system. This provided a much improved minima for the current RNAV IAP on RWY 02, unfortunately no longer available due to the UK being unable to agree terms for access to EGNOS.

There may well be a long term solution for the UK, either access to EGNOS or access to an alternative system, both apparently vastly expensive.
Thanks, I had a feeling (and remember previous discussions) that it was to do with terrain in the undershoot. As you say, it seems the extension at the other end introduces further difficulties.

[TCAS FAN]

Thanks, I had a feeling (and remember previous discussions) that it was to do with terrain in the undershoot. As you say, it seems the extension at the other end introduces further difficulties.

Wouldn't agree that there are "difficulties", more a case of limiting options. The worldwide move away from ground based navaids is underway. Its a very attractive move for aerodrome operators, no ILS localiser/glidepath/DME equipment to purchase/install/maintain/get flight checked every six months. If the UK can buy in to the necessary satellite technology RNAV-LPV IAP is the way to go. It has already been demonstrated to be capable of CAT III operation, albeit due to off-airport obstacles CAT 1 is the best that SOU could expect.

[Wycombe]

Wouldn't agree that there are "difficulties", more a case of limiting options. The worldwide move away from ground based navaids is underway. Its a very attractive move for aerodrome operators, no ILS localiser/glidepath/DME equipment to purchase/install/maintain/get flight checked every six months. If the UK can buy in to the necessary satellite technology RNAV-LPV IAP is the way to go. It has already been demonstrated to be capable of CAT III operation, albeit due to off-airport obstacles CAT 1 is the best that SOU could expect.
Yep, by "difficulties" I meant with installing an ILS for 02, so it seems we are violent agreement. Thanks for your insight.

[TCAS FAN]

Yep, by "difficulties" I meant with installing an ILS for 02, so it seems we are violent agreement. Thanks for your insight.

Nothing violent about the agreement, predictive text strikes again????

[MARKEYD]

Looks like TUI are re adjusting there flights for next summer
As it stands there is no Ibiza schedule as BA have pulled the route for next summer along with Florence and Nice

The Tuesday service to Palma has been re introduced using Volotea , although the seat plan shows a B717 ?

TUI are using a whole BA Cityflyer charter for the Saturday flight to Palma and not Volotea , same as this summer
They have also again taken seats on the Sat / Sun BA scheduled flights as well

[Buster the Bear]

Hopefully Volotea will still be flying next year. A few rumours of Covid debts casing them to seek further urgent investment.