Manchester-2

[Flightlevel001]

I'm praying they end up replacing their old equipment with these new scanners: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44925635

Perhaps then we might get a break from the aggressive yelling "Coat's/jackets off, belts off, laptops out, iPads out, shoes off, liquids/gels out, everything out of your pockets!" Before you get to the trays, so it's kicked barefooted along the floor whilst trying to hold up your trousers. Then when you get to the trays, each person needs about 4 or 5 because they insist on nearly every item going in it's individual one, increasing the chance of at least one of them being pulled to one side for extra screening (and more time having to wait in that awful environment).

All of the above is what's causing the queues, especially if you add bewildered non-frequent fliers into the mix or those with young kids in tow. I use the pre-check lane in the USA and people breeze through it. Fingers crossed, that's what these new machines are all about. Let's hope they get approved and make an appearance in the new terminal, I think they'll definitely help to create a less fraught and stressful environment for everyone.

[LAX_LHR]

Looks like Cathay Pacific A350 B-LRB is going to be spending its 5th night at MAN tonight. Must be a pretty serious hydraulic leak. I think the PIA B77W is still here after 3 nights too. Will be it’s 4th night if it’s still here.

[roverman]

Looks like Cathay Pacific A350 B-LRB is going to be spending its 5th night at MAN tonight. Must be a pretty serious hydraulic leak. I think the PIA B77W is still here after 3 nights too. Will be it’s 4th night if it’s still here.

PIA now departed, with pax. CX was showing a departure estimate of 1700 empty to HKG, just checked FR24 and looks like it's still AOG. There was also a KLM E190 parked out on the West Apron, another possible casualty?

[spannersatcx]

Looks like Cathay Pacific A350 B-LRB is going to be spending its 5th night at MAN tonight. Must be a pretty serious hydraulic leak. I think the PIA B77W is still here after 3 nights too. Will be it’s 4th night if it’s still here.


CX departed.

[RAS_2001]

Any idea when the third long haul airline will be announced,

LAX?

[LAX_LHR]

It looks like it’s been postponed again, but 2 out of 3 aint bad.

shaping up to be a strong winter from MAN growth wise, so, can’t complain.

in other news, it looks like BA could be operating AGP/IBZ and PMI as a ‘BA Mainline’ flight next summer. Oneworld timetable currently showing these destinations as ‘British Airways operated by Titan Airways Limited’ similar to LGW. These flights have no correspondingly LCY sectors to which the MAN flights always start/end their weekend, so, looks to be either a W pattern with LGW or a MAN based aircraft (the latter could mean an all week base given it won’t be using an ‘otherwise idle’ Cityflyer machine).

[RAS_2001]

It looks like it’s been postponed again, but 2 out of 3 aint bad.

shaping up to be a strong winter from MAN growth wise, so, can’t complain.

in other news, it looks like BA could be operating AGP/IBZ and PMI as a ‘BA Mainline’ flight next summer. Oneworld timetable currently showing these destinations as ‘British Airways operated by Titan Airways Limited’ similar to LGW. These flights have no correspondingly LCY sectors to which the MAN flights always start/end their weekend, so, looks to be either a W pattern with LGW or a MAN based aircraft (the latter could mean an all week base given it won’t be using an ‘otherwise idle’ Cityflyer machine).
I was still looking forward to the Thai to BKK announcement, what a shame. Anyway, at least we have to 2 brand new connections to very popular Asian destinations (BOM and ADD).

[golf yankee one one]

Er, Addis Ababa always used to be in Africa!

[The96er]

in other news, it looks like BA could be operating AGP/IBZ and PMI as a ‘BA Mainline’ flight next summer.

Titan are operating those 3 routes on behalf of Cityflyer on the 9th and 10th Aug only. There's nothing else planned.

[FFMAN]

I was still looking forward to the Thai to BKK announcement, what a shame. Anyway, at least we have to 2 brand new connections to very popular Asian destinations (BOM and ADD).

Hopefully they were put off by all the negative passenger experience reports on this site and others.
I hope it's the kick in the teeth that MAN management needs to wake it from its smug stupor. As a very frequent flyer, I'll say it again: 'Manchester Airport is one of the worst airports in Europe from a passenger perspective. Most airports in Asia are better and an increasing number of African airports are also better.'. Although to add a little balance, I will confirm that the last trip through T1 last week was fairly tolerable both outbound and return.
I suspect the dark hand of MAG at play though as I've just had a 'never again' report from some friends in London who have just tried Stansted for the first time. Their considered view was that LHR and LGW were much better so why spend extra time heading out to deepest East Anglia for a worse experience.
Don't shoot the messenger. It cannot be an accident can it that of the three worst airports in Britain: Manchester, Stansted and Luton, two of them are MAG's two biggest airports.

[RAS_2001]

Er, Addis Ababa always used to be in Africa!
IK it was a mistake )

[RAS_2001]

Er, Addis Ababa always used to be in Africa!
IK it was a mistake )

[RAS_2001]

My personal expeirence at MAN has varied depending upon factors including the time of day, passenger density, and of course inevitably the airline. If you're travelling early morning, then you should have not rouble getting through security, whereas if you're travelling much later on, I'd imagine that you stand a much greater chance of subjecting yourself to quite a long and drawn out process.
The worst experience I've had was waiting to pass through MAN security with around 50-100 people queuing in front of me. Not to mention the fact that my flight was delayed by around 5 HOURS! As it turns out, it was a mechanical breakdown which grounded the aircraft at ALC, the aircraft was eventually replaced but by then some travellers had fallen asleep... Good job RYR ��

The best experience I had was 2 years ago, whereby I easily managed to slither through security in just under 5 mins. Additionally, the flight itself was on time which was a bonus.

Overall I believe that customer expeirence will vary with the factors that I have previously mentioned and more.

[FFMAN]

If you're travelling early morning, then you should have not rouble getting through security, whereas if you're travelling much later on, I'd imagine that you stand a much greater chance of subjecting yourself to quite a long and drawn out process.


Hmmm...your response betrays the fact that you probably don't travel through MAN very often. Actually the opposite is true.
If you are on one of the first wave of departures - expect a 'hell on earth' experience - any terminal. If you're traveling once this first wave has departed, you can expect something a little more tolerable - however still worse than any comparator airport in Europe.

[Ivan aromer]

Hmmm...your response betrays the fact that you probably don't travel through MAN very often. Actually the opposite is true.
If you are on one of the first wave of departures - expect a 'hell on earth' experience - any terminal. If you're traveling once this first wave has departed, you can expect something a little more tolerable - however still worse than any comparator airport in Europe.
My experience too. Fast track in name only!

[RAS_2001]

I've flown in and out of Manchester many times, so 1 I do not need your judgment. Secondly, that's what I have experienced, so you can't just go ahead and make assumptions.

[Mr A Tis]

6am T1 =90 minutes for security or 50 minutes fast track- that’s my experience.
have to face it yet again this Sunday at 8am.

Now airport of last resort.

[ZOOKER]

That is astonishing, Council Van. Does the time depend on R/W in use or is it the same for both ends?

[RAS_2001]

That is astonishing, Council Van. Does the time depend on R/W in use or is it the same for both ends?
Generally speaking, if one runway is being used whilst the other is closed, the volume of traffic tends to flow at a slower rate than if both runways were being used. That being said, to also depends on the frequency of aircraft movements and scheduled departure times.

[Robin757]

Advice please. I am travelling with a small group on Wednesday 8th August to Zurich at (0845 with Swiss at least I think that is the time, I am not the group leader and time to be confirmed by her). One of our group is a very nervous traveller - can we expect very long queues at security or will things have got better especially midweek? They have been looking at the airport's departures and have already noted the couple of hours lateness this flight had today and yesterday (anybody know why?). Is there any help available for those who suffer from extreme anxiety and need help bypassing crowds and queues? (Apologies to those in the queue). They will be on diazepem for the journey!
To be honest I would not be surprised if John does not turn up for the journey but it would be a shame as he would probably never fly again. It would be nice to give him some assurance. Thank you

[Robin757]

Sorry forgot to mention Terminal 1

[Rutan16]

6am T1 =90 minutes for security or 50 minutes fast track- that’s my experience.
have to face it yet again this Sunday at 8am.

Now airport of last resort.And why then do you continue to use it so frequently?

Oh because it’s the only viable choice perhaps.

Both other regionals have rather limited travel options and add significantly to your ground travel times and via another hub well that still starts at Manchester and probably via your favoured terminal T3 !

Get real Manchester is certainly a victim of its own success and is working towards a longer term solution right now.

The security issues and up and down stairs in the piers aren’t MAGs fault by design . No these are imposed by ministers without any consutation of the industry including segregated arrivals and departures even within the EU its plain nonsense and political grandstanding and that the facts imho.

As for T1 through I do agree it’s now way past the design capacity infact it has fewer contact stands now than in the nineties and before T1BA was contructed !

[Rutan16]

Advice please. I am travelling with a small group on Wednesday 8th August to Zurich at (0845 with Swiss at least I think that is the time, I am not the group leader and time to be confirmed by her). One of our group is a very nervous traveller - can we expect very long queues at security or will things have got better especially midweek? They have been looking at the airport's departures and have already noted the couple of hours lateness this flight had today and yesterday (anybody know why?). Is there any help available for those who suffer from extreme anxiety and need help bypassing crowds and queues? (Apologies to those in the queue). They will be on diazepem for the journey!
To be honest I would not be surprised if John does not turn up for the journey but it would be a shame as he would probably never fly again. It would be nice to give him some assurance. Thank you

Your flight is scheduled to be operated by Helvetic an independent Swiss carrier that operates a number of Swiss flights under a sub contract basis . The onboard service is usually excellent imho . Especially so among European short haul carriers today.

T1 on Friday morning WILL be very busy and I am afraid a long queue through security IS inevitable so do be prepared for 40 minutes plus unless you pay for the speedy lines!

The flight and others have been delayed over the last few day because of FLOW CONTROL across Central Europe simply too much traffic in the air.

Dont get to anxiousthe flight will be fine - the airport experience less so however it the way it is these days .
Air travel lost its glamorous edge more than twenty years ago it just another method of mass transit these days.

[Robin757]

Thank you Rutan16 for your wonderful swift reply. I don't like saying this but I did say we are travelling Wednesday 8 August - sorry. John is starting to get really nervous so we are getting in touch with Swiss and asking for some kind of assistance. I don't what airlines offer these days with what is basically a mental health issue. He suffers nervousness in many crowded places and, for example, at the theatre has to go to the toilet several times until just before the performance starts. He will certainly get to know Terminal 1 toilets well at least! Thank you again.

[Rutan16]

Some perspective tomorrow between 6 and 7am Manchester will have 32 blocked departures whilst Heathrow just 23 !

Gatwick however will have a whopping 37 scheduled off of their one active runway !

Yes Manchester first wave really is that busy these days and unlike Heathrow - Gatwick will have already had a further 16 in the previous hour and Manchester 5.

[Flightrider]

....the difference being that customers at Gatwick can breeze through security in 10 minutes or less in both South and North terminals.

[Scottie Dog]

Hopefully the dualing of taxiways from Charlie through to November Alpha will ease some of the current problems. It will take time but the work has started.

[RAS_2001]

Any idea what Primera's intentions are over the course of the next year in terms of destinations?

[Mr A Tis]

Rutan 16 Get real Manchester is certainly a victim of its own success

Seriously? That is laughable sir.

Manchester is a victim of it's own incompetence failing to staff up for known planned traffic.

Hence a number of airlines bosses, The CAA & Dept for Transport are monitoring the situation- I can't say more than that here.

My use of MAN has reduced, the fist casualty is Flybe as I'm using the train to Edinburgh & to Southampton as using this airport is just not viable.

If T1 is beyond it's design capacity as you say- then why are they still accepting new airlines and routes that they cannot handle?

By the way- I don't always book the flights so I don't always have a say in the matter. Love your assumptions on my travel requirements.

[Mr A Tis]

T3 pick up not going well :


https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-drop-off-video-14954048

[MANFOD]

I'm not trying to excuse the airport but it's a pity the guy making the video got a little confused between pick-up and drop-off fees. Pick-up which he was referring to is £4 for up to 30 minutes as far as I know. Drop-off is £3 for up to 5 minutes and £4 for up to 10 minutes. What happens after 10 minutes, especially if exit lanes are closed, and it's not the driver's fault but the system or the equipment, I'm not sure.

[Rutan16]

Gatwick has two huge terminals by comparison with those of Manchester and GIP has already spent significant amounts of time and money.
In the case of North built with lamina passenger flows in mind ( loads of space for security were intrinsic in the design brief) as were the requirements for mainly single carrier - still relevent even with the tails are now largely orange rather than a wavy marine ensign.

The Design of south has long been such that the security points were front and centre.

They had their problems however they have certainly attacked it head on.

And I don’t dispute the issues at Manchester right now which include the use of what was and still is as by design a domestic facility for international flexible fares and even long haul. T3 is chronically stretched way beyond design limits.!

[Rutan16]

Enjoy the train(s) to Southampton -Lovely on those four and five car Voyagers with the tilt turned OFF and stopping at every point conceivable and some not so down the Chiltern and Oxford line and reversing in Reading really takes for ever !
Unless you route via London and navigate the murky and at the moment most unbearable underground- I can tell my own commute home today really was hell !
As for Edinburgh I suppose you travel via York and a change to that “ can’t make any money” franchise East Coast because TPE can’t run a proper service !
Heyho each to their own.
Personally I’d get in the car book a Premier and take in few more customers in both cases.
Again I’d say a fourty minute patient queue seem far more appealing.

[Rutan16]

Rutan 16

Seriously? That is laughable sir.

Manchester is a victim of it's own incompetence failing to staff up for known planned traffic.

Hence a number of airlines bosses, The CAA & Dept for Transport are monitoring the situation- I can't say more than that here.

My use of MAN has reduced, the fist casualty is Flybe as I'm using the train to Edinburgh & to Southampton as using this airport is just not viable.

If T1 is beyond it's design capacity as you say- then why are they still accepting new airlines and routes that they cannot handle?

By the way- I don't always book the flights so I don't always have a say in the matter. Love your assumptions on my travel requirements.

If it’s to do with departure level security the main area of complaints, what sanctions can be imposed given the current infrastructure in T1 and T3 in the short term ?
Other than an enforced lowering of declared terminal capacity over the typically measured two hour timeframe !
And where do you reroute that traffic .

Oh lets see MAG has a plan, no is already working on that with the T2 programme .

Yet still the major airlines and three leading tour operators find Manchester appealing enough to their bottom line.
Indeed I hazard a guess not few of those carriers plus the orange and harp rather like/benefit from the lack of time for the terminal shopping experience caused by the departures security lines at the moment.

If any commercial operations have questions for MAG to answer its the retailers imho.
High rents demand the requisite footfall and other agents of the same authority seem hell bent on damaging their bottom line.

BTW other UK airports including Birmingham Edinburgh and Aldergrove are expericing similar departure security issues
Its is a major problem.

[Navpi]

There was a report of 2 hour 2 hour queues at Heathrow earlie4 in the week.

[MANFOD]

I see the BBC Breakfast Business chap (Ben Thompson) is at MAN this morning. Missed it earlier but I trust we see shots of a/c on the airfield rather than queues in security or cars.:)

Just saw the last report before 09.00 and he was in the glass box at the top of the Tower talking to some ATC Managers and a travel journalist. I gather earlier he was out on the balcony with some great views of the airfield at a very busy time.

The problems don't go away but nice to see something showing the airport in a more positive light.

[Manezytom]

any news on primera slots for EWR & IAD ?

[FFMAN]

Mr Rutan
Your overwhelming full on defence of MAN and the rather snarky reply to a complainant is unjustified.
A few points to make:
1. You mock Mr Atis for electing not to fly domestically. By coincidence I was sat on a FlyBe plane last week (BHD-MAN) and I noticed the 'Faster than Road or Rail' claim. These days it isn't.
Let's say I want to go from home in Manchester to Edinburgh (I used to fly there a lot back in the day).....Taxi to the airport 30 mins in order to arrive 2 hours before the departure time. 1 hour of flying; 30 mins to park the plane, wait for everyone to deplane, walk through the terminal and get in a taxi - 30 mins; taxi in to town 30 mins. That's 4.5 hours. I can drive door to door in 4 hours in the comfort of my own car for probably less than a third of the cost.
Southampton....never go there but I would definitely take the train. That's a no-brainer in order to avoid the airport.
London - train 100% every time.

2.You mention that Mr Atis still flies from MAN because his options are limited. That is true. For me that starts to raise the question of regulation. Regulation exists to stop companies in monopolistic situations abusing that monopoly. Now whilst you can fly on your holidays to Spain from a number of competing airports nearby, there are many many places on the globe where Manchester has a clear monopoly outside of London. I hope the CAA are taking note.

3. You and other defenders of the current situation are always banging on about the current investment program which although it is welcome is at least 10 years too late. The current problems have been obvious for many years and have been getting worse. MAN management have been aware of the deficiencies of their assets for many years and have done nothing whilst raking in the bonuses. Furthermore the current investment program will not fix any of the real problems in T1 (way past it's sell by date and needs a total re-build) and T3 which is badly designed to start with and massively over capacity.

4. I remember well that in the past, one of MAN's selling points was that it wasn't Heathrow which was always (with some justification) painted as some kind of hell on earth and to be avoided at all cost. Now the opposite is true. Why? Because the owners of LHR have invested heavily over a protracted period in order to fix the problems and make it a better place. I never thought this would happen, but it has. Now MAN is to be avoided where possible.

Before you or anyone says I'm somehow 'anti-Manchester' - I'm not - in fact I put in considerable personal effort to lobby and fight for approval for runway 2 back in the day. I'm just so disappointed that such obvious failings of the current and previous management are excused and defended.
I feel that those that defend the current state of affairs are either employed to do so or are plane-spotters (who must think they're in paradise).
It can't be a coincidence that those like me, Mr Atis and others who complain most are those that have to use the airport the most in order to earn a living.

[Porky Speedpig]

Enjoy the train(s) to Southampton -Lovely on those four and five car Voyagers with the tilt turned OFF and stopping at every point conceivable and some not so down the Chiltern and Oxford line and reversing in Reading really takes for ever !
Unless you route via London and navigate the murky and at the moment most unbearable underground- I can tell my own commute home today really was hell !
As for Edinburgh I suppose you travel via York and a change to that “ can’t make any money” franchise East Coast because TPE can’t run a proper service !
Heyho each to their own.
Personally I’d get in the car book a Premier and take in few more customers in both cases.
Again I’d say a fourty minute patient queue seem far more appealing.





Have to agree with this having taken the Reading to Manchester part of the Southampton train many times. It seems to take for ever - about 4 hours and then add on 60-90 mins to Southampton after the reversing manoeuvre described. The worst part is that it generally has as many standing as sitting so there is virtually nil chance of any refreshment and even a loo break is a military operation. Virgin LON MAN at the weekend is just as bad when there are events on. The big thing that flights still have going for them is an absolute limit on the number aboard, a GUARANTEED seat and the ability to get in and out of it, confident that it will still be unoccupied when you get back.

[Mr A Tis]

Re Southampton- I've done both (frequently) Cross Country is a no no.
Virgin to London & a quick 4 stop change to Waterloo.
At least during this time I can work in comfort, which you can't do standing in a security queue or looking for a vacant seat or being refused from a full lounge.

Despite routing via London - from home to destination is still quicker, for me, by rail than MAN.

The trouble at T3 (like the others) there is no consistency, will the process take 10 minutes or two hours to get airside? Their own agreed security service level is 15 minutes, which is in their gift to provide if they employed enough staff.
Reports of the free drop off area are that some people are waiting 45 minutes for a free shuttle because the 15 minute service is full. Again within their gift but ignored. At a recent meeting they discussed either upping the service to 10 minutes or providing dedicated terminal buses- but decided the existing plan was enough.
Again at their recent meeting they discussed cleanliness etc- again kicked into long grass.
The User committee asked for more resources rather than continuing to inflate their already record profits.
As a lifelong supporter of MAN it is heartbreaking to see what they done to the place- apart from a decade of underfunding (Bournemouth & Humberside follies) There really needs to be a management clear out. This falling customer service will bite them back in the end. They have the resources available to fix many things short term.... if they wanted to.
In the meantime when I meet friends from Asia I can only apologies to them for their embarrassing experiences.

[Rutan16]

FF MAN I smell the sent of a rat with this love fest for Heathrow !

An idea suddenly springs to mind, lets build out Heathrow scrap regional long haul and regional jobs spend more billions in Spelthorne , Hillingdon and Hounslow that will relieve the pressure and you can perhaps still get your reward mileage whilst the economy of the region declines further !

Tin hat off !

I am critical of the time MAG group took to get the TP underway however they had to convince a rather large and none local shareholder to sign off first.

I have acknowledged the failings of T1 and T3 both unfit for their current purposes.

Indeed in hindsight T1BA was a waste of resources designed specifically for a use that would quickly disappear.

Both Manchester and Birmingham got lumbered with infrastructure unfit to meet the sudden changed landscape.

Then Central Government decrees some knee jerk imho - on security rendered T2 landslide difficult whilst T1 airside almost impossible to achieve.

Still we are where we are and better late than never.

As for Mr Atis he is big enough to fight his own battles , he is normally insightful however simply called in bluff the throw away last resort comment.

He chooses the train to Edinburgh it’s workable via York less so via the direct service- TPE trains being little more than regional commuter units of 4 coaches.
Southampton I stand my ground nightmare via rail from and to Manchester period.

[PapaEchoNovember]

Manchester is an absolute disgrace to the region and there is only one fesable solution..

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/480x270/7338b1d2_e839_47fd_abe1_139191fc0e9a_ea87e9062375c2388b5c402 2bbc79811ee37e041.gif

[GEB74]

Some of Apologisms on here for Manchester Airport management are mind blowing...........
The utter lie that the new T2 is going to sort the airports problems out needs calling out.
Demand continues to grow and is probably at suppression point about now.

Where is the refurbishment / expansion / rebuild / plan for T3?
Has a FINAL decision been made on what (if any) is going to be left of T1 by the end of the T2 redevelopment period? Because if there is much left, it's gonna need a lot of re-work........
Where's the planned fourth pier for T2 been buried??
Assuming the existing development work continues until 2023 and the airport does not want major works on another part of the airport to commence until they've finished the existing programme - does that mean essentially that T3 will be 'As Is' until what, 2025? Anyone on here looking forward to another 7 years of that sh*te?!
Do the usual apologists think this is acceptable??
Remember, we all pay Manchester Airport the Passenger Facilities Charge as part of our ticket price - I believe in summer and at peak times, it's over £11. Throw in the Security Charge and the total is around £17 per person, per departure (happy to be corrected, discounts may apply etc). What should we have the right to expect for our monies?
Too little, too late, too slow.

[MANFOD]

Mr A Tis, re your comments:
"The trouble at T3 (like the others) there is no consistency, will the process take 10 minutes or two hours to get airside? Their own agreed security service level is 15 minutes, which is in their gift to provide if they employed enough staff.
Reports of the free drop off area are that some people are waiting 45 minutes for a free shuttle because the 15 minute service is full. Again within their gift but ignored. At a recent meeting they discussed either upping the service to 10 minutes or providing dedicated terminal buses- but decided the existing plan was enough.
Again at their recent meeting they discussed cleanliness etc- again kicked into long grass.
The User committee asked for more resources rather than continuing to inflate their already record profits"

Do I take it you are either on the User Committee as a passenger representative or have a good contact who is?

As regards security queues at T3, and T1 for that matter, do we know some hard facts such as how many security channels and scanners are there? Is there physical space to accommodate more (if there were staff to do so)? On average, how many security lanes are open and staffed at peak periods in each terminal?

In an earlier post you stated:
" Hence a number of airlines bosses, The CAA & Dept for Transport are monitoring the situation- I can't say more than that here".

Is it just 'monitoring' or are you implying notice has in effect been served on MAN to improve with the threat of action if they don't? From an airline perspective I can appreciate they could halt expansion plans or in theory even pull out altogether however unlikely that may seem for the larger carriers. Apart from fines, I guess the CAA could reduce the current capacity limits at peak times, could they?

I'm just trying to understand what the feeling is inside the industry (as opposed to passengers who can't wait to vent their anger on social media and the M.E.N., although I accept some of those views may be perfectly justified). Bearing in mind, easyjet have announced significant expansion at MAN this winter and next summer and some new long haul routes are starting this winter.

Incidentally, I'm sure the original announcement about drop-off charges at terminals but free shuttle buses available for drop-off at a remote park, mentioned a service every 10 minutes. It was only later not long before the new system started if I'm not mistaken that the frequency was to be every 15 minutes. I think the first I heard it was from the spokeswoman on GMR the day before drop-off fees were activated.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Then Central Government decrees some knee jerk imho - on security rendered T2 landslide difficult whilst T1 airside almost impossible to achieve.
Interesting, how so?

[Rutan16]

Rolling programme of works build out the northwestern end of T2 move Jet2 and TCX out of T1 ease some pressure .

There Will be a slow down in growth realised and potential over the next few years imho.

Regretably I don’t see any easy quick or dirty solutions to T3 other than it needs to come down even before T1 it simply doesn’t function in today environment from a business or security point of view.

T1 with some pressure easied by a few tenants being persuaded to move north would be remodelled sufficiently to remain for a further decade imho.
Pier B could be replaced with a parallel structure been done before .


Yes a hodgepodge and a compromised approach however the site is now so constrained where could you go .

A completely new terminal WOULD be a shed similar to Spekes nothing glamorous but where to put it your answers on post card !

North East Cheshire certain won’t help or part fund it anywhere west or south of current structure.

Hell they won’t support a few buses from Wilmslow into the Greater Manchester these days.

[Rutan16]

Skip primarily I refer to the UK governments blind instance that the EU levels of screening practices are somehow unacceptable yet they are happy to receive the advance passenger manifests !

Many EU airports have managed to build in Schengen and Rest of world separation far more effectively.

I think the UK should have done similar but a blind one rule applies.

The Post Glasgow Land slide traffic rules are the epitome of knee jerk imho.

And yes I think the post security at least within the EU of fully screens passenger flows up and down piers via stairs and maze of corridors is simply grandstanding.

As for outside the EU and perhaps the US I accept that’s different. Again many of the competing EU mainland airports have squared that circle already.

Still the UK does things differently and will do more so in the years ahead whether the solutions are better or worse Who knows.

For certain departure level security delivery oft outsourced is not the most effective or efficient at quite few UK airports right now.

Very present - effective more questionable imho.

[Curious Pax]

Regretably I don’t see any easy quick or dirty solutions to T3 other than it needs to come down even before T1 it simply doesn’t function in today environment from a business or security point of view.

I only rarely fly through T3, so don’t quite grasp the antipathy to it - not denying it’s an issue, just curious, comes with the name I guess! From my limited observation it mostly seems to be the constrained ‘hanging around’ area airside before you head towards the gates. Security outbound and Immigration inbound don’t strike me as an issue if (a big if I know) properly manned so all lanes/scanners are in use.

If that that area is indeed the case, then as part of the transformation shuffle I would think that if they could empty T3 for a year then completely gut the place they would have options to shrink the current check in area depth in order to expand airside, and remodel the shopping area. Also, if you look at an aerial view, there seems to be redundant space behind the pier containing the 50s gates towards landslide that could be used to make a much wider pier, possibly giving an alternative location for some shops.

[FFMAN]

Yes a hodgepodge and a compromised approach however the site is now so constrained where could you go .
A completely new terminal WOULD be a shed similar to Spekes nothing glamorous but where to put it your answers on post card !
A good question.
I have thought for some time (given that my line of work is major projects) that the most logical way to deal with the T1 and T3 problem is to extend T2 eastwards, more or less in a straight line towards the old Ringway Road towards the end of the T3 50s stands.
Much of what is there now is empty space particularly that area between the T1 MSCP and the Rail Station. The majority of the construction could take place whilst the present T1 is in operation. Once built, both T1 and T3 would be flattened leaving a lot more airside space for building out however many piers are needed for decades to come.
The end result would be a single large linear terminal with linear drop-off / pick-up ramp instead of the spaghetti mess of the current road system twisting round the current terminals. This terminal would also be much closer to the rail station or even integrated with it.. It would make Manchester a more attractive place to transfer too - which it most definitely isn't at the moment.

I've found that over all the years I worked in projects that almost nothing is impossible. This 'can't do' attitude just seems to be the case in Britain particularly outside London. As a nation we are just not very good at this sort of problem fixing, everything is too difficult or too expensive here and it is why I prefer to work on projects in other countries.....but then I have to use MAN to do that .....(!)
Maybe I should give up and take an early retirement :)

[chinapattern]

any news on primera slots for EWR & IAD ?

They’ve handed them back. Doubtful Malaga will start either.

[Mr A Tis]

Rutan 16
Don't want to prolong non MAN info- but my trip on TPE to Edinburgh the other week was 8 coaches- with a First at back and front. Most intermediate stops have now been removed (eg non stop Piccadilly to Preston) wins hands down. Keep up.

[RAS_2001]

I personally prefer TPE over Northern or any other network rail company i.e. Arriva, Cross Country, or even VS.
they provide the most valuable and excellent customer service compared to other companies which operate out of Piccadilly. Although, things may have improved as I have not been on a train in around 5-6 months. Then again, what has changed in the past 6 months... ? Ive travelled on first class both with virgin train and TPE, and I have to say, TPE's first class was clean, the quality of the food was on point, and the staff were very friendly and welcoming.

My experience with VS on the other hand was the complete antithesis. First of all, they're standard of service is nowhere near where they proclaim it to be. Also, when I got served, half of the food was COLD. The only positive I could come out with was the desert and coffee, both of which were freshly made and actually edible and enjoyable.

[rkenyon]

6am T1 =90 minutes for security or 50 minutes fast track- that’s my experience.
have to face it yet again this Sunday at 8am.

Now airport of last resort.

I travel through T1 weekly, and it's never taken me more than about 10 minutes to get through FastTrack security (I go at various different times). I do think you are exaggerating your case somewhat.

[nigel osborne]

They’ve handed them back. Doubtful Malaga will start either.
Lucky escape Manchester. Been a disaster at BHX !

[MANFOD]

Yes Nigel, I doubt too many tears are being shed.

That said, it would be nice to get IAD back on the MAN departure boards but preferably with a rather more reliable airline!

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Originally Posted by Mr A Tis images/buttons/viewpost.gif (showthread.php?p=10206276#post10206276)
6am T1 =90 minutes for security or 50 minutes fast track- that’s my experience.
have to face it yet again this Sunday at 8am.

6am this morning - drop off was a breeze, no queuing approaching the terminal like there used to be. Check in was quick and efficient, and no real dramas at security, from stepping out of the taxi to being through security was less than 1/2 an hour. I speak as I find, and this morning I found MAN T1 to be very good despite the huge numbers transitting the place.

[RAS_2001]

Personally I think Primera would be the more viable option from Manchester should they decide to launch IAD and/or EWR using the A321NEO.

[chaps1954]

I hope they don`t start as they are damaged goods in the UK now, the only thing in their favour is aircraft size in that TCX and VS operate aircraft that are
too large for IAD.

[FRatSTN]

https://www.ttgmedia.com/wtm/wtm-insights/primera-air-taking-off-with-confidence-14885

Allegedly there's no plans currently to fly transatlantic from Manchester

[RAS_2001]

I hope they don`t start as they are damaged goods in the UK now, the only thing in their favour is aircraft size in that TCX and VS operate aircraft that are
too large for IAD.
Youre not making any sense. Firsrly, IAD can handle anywhere from 10-12 777s at a time, with still some spare capacity for aircraft like 767s and 787s.
Also, the largest aircraft in TCX's fleet is an Airbus A330-200 , which is smaller than a Boeing 777-200er...
​​​​

[Luke1991]

Youre not making any sense. Firsrly, IAD can handle anywhere from 10-12 777s at a time, with still some spare capacity for aircraft like 767s and 787s.
Also, the largest aircraft in TCX's fleet is an Airbus A330-200 , which is smaller than a Boeing 777-200er...
​​​​
I think the poster meant the aircraft would be too large for the number of passengers flying the route, not that the airports wouldn't be able to accommodate the large aircraft.

[Cazza_fly]

Youre not making any sense. Firsrly, IAD can handle anywhere from 10-12 777s at a time, with still some spare capacity for aircraft like 767s and 787s.
Also, the largest aircraft in TCX's fleet is an Airbus A330-200 , which is smaller than a Boeing 777-200er...
​​​​

The poster is not meaning in terms of what the airport can handle but more in terms of what the route can handle capacity wise... or are you being sarcastic :uhoh:

[RAS_2001]

The poster is not meaning in terms of what the airport can handle but more in terms of what the route can handle capacity wise... or are you being sarcastic :uhoh:
Regardless, I still think that it would be a very popular route should VS or MT decide to give it a shot. Maybe not as a year round destination, but morso seasonal.

[chaps1954]

United couldn`t make it work with a B757 and BMI used an A330 but the figures were fairly poor

[Mr Mac]

I used the BMI (A330) service back in early 2000,s to Washington for about 6 months so about 6 flights and I would say that apart from high summer, the load was quite light in my all be it limited experience as I re call. Service always good form BMI crew, and product were very good in Business in comparison with US carriers and I had good reports on economy cabin as well, pity they are no longer with us.
Regards
Mr Mac

[RAS_2001]

The question is, what WOULD make it work?

[chaps1954]

It is a very seasonal route due to tourism and not much business so it is never going to be a big money maker

[MAN777]

https://www.facebook.com/coachbarrow/videos/vb.770882237/10156583289502238/?type=2&theater

Hope someone at MAG is seeing this ?

Trying to post link to facebook but not working !

Video of T3 traffic jam as people miss there 5 min drop off deadline.

[Armodeen]

The question is, what WOULD make it work?

A321LR from an established operator could probably make it work.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Just to clarify a few things, T3 was never designed to be used/abused as it is now. It really needs to be extended towards the APH. T2 needs extending towards the west, and "around the corner". The "connection" between anything and T3 needs sorting, it's ridiculous how badly signed it is. Also it's a shame we can't have a fourth terminal on the southside of 23L, there's is enough land.

[MANFOD]

IAD: Perhaps it falls between 2 stools in that it's not really a P2P destination with sufficient demand but neither is it a major transfer hub. I imagine the PHL flights have a high proportion of connecting pax (unless someone has specific figures) which would probably impact on an IAD service.

TCX: I see Seattle is now included again on the TCX S2019 timetable which is reassuring. No BOS still, but there are 40 x weekly long haul departures compared to 44 in s2019, but up from the 38 previously showing.
Whether the program has now been finalised, who knows.

[Rutan16]

Dullas is overwhelming dominated by United and A* partners and affiliates ( even Aer Lingus remain wedded to UA on this route sector !).

Problem is for Manchester many much and most of the UA connecting traffic from and to our area just seems better suited to the beyond services offered out of Newark today.

Seems United saw it is a duplication and indeed it really was as it simply replaced the second EWK in any event.

What we need to see from United soon is the always just round the corner reinstatement of a 764 on Newark with the added pallet space this offers.

Back Washington if United can’t make it work standing alone of the Newark operation I am struggling to see anyone else making work in the near future.

Certainly not American whose current policy is to route eastern seaboard connections traffic over Philadelphia period stop.

Delta/Virgin route over JFK/Atlanta - they have just a few flights a day beyond Dullas all to the other hubs ,it’s bearly even a functional spoke - indeed Delta are even pretty tiny down town at DCA !

IMHO the best hope for a restored flight could be as a transit stop-perhaps we could get Ethiopian to reroute ET500/501 through Manchester rather than Dublin and with traffic rights ( they have none on the IAD -DUB sector ! ) and it’s a 77W nice box uplift there !

Norwegian seem very flappy with 7M8 it somehow doesn’t seem to be meeting their expectations of building secondary and smaller TALC markets yet tested. The A321LR may just be real gamechanger !

Thomas Cook/ Condor are imho at the point they need to fortify and consolidate their current route portfolio rather than further expansion for the time being - especially so if they are looking for new investors of the airline operating division as rumoured elsewhere.

[LAX_LHR]

Thomas Cook increasing Seattle to 3 weekly, JFK to 8 weekly but LAX down to 2 weekly.

MCO goes 13 weekly with 3 flights on Sundays too

[MANFOD]

TCX: Many thanks LAX. Unless there are other frequency changes, I reckon that would amount to c 47 weekly departures for s2019. Pretty tight for 7 based a/c I would have thought. If the Air Tankers are going, I wonder where an extra A330 is coming from, or could they run the program with their existing fleet taking into account their other UK bases?

[Scottie Dog]

Did I read somewhere else that TCX are reducing their STN programme for S19? Could that release another aircraft....

[RAS_2001]

TCX: Many thanks LAX. Unless there are other frequency changes, I reckon that would amount to c 47 weekly departures for s2019. Pretty tight for 7 based a/c I would have thought. If the Air Tankers are going, I wonder where an extra A330 is coming from, or could they run the program with their existing fleet taking into account their other UK bases?
​​​​​​I have a solution. Order the A330neo...

[Suzeman]

Headline news in the MEN electronic version this evening

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/whats-going-wrong-manchester-airport-14956923

The PR people are earning their bonuses,,,,

[Suzeman]

​​​​​​I have a solution. Order the A330neo...

Jolly good.

Can you suggest a good financial deal for their acquisition as well whilst you are at it ?

[RAS_2001]

Jolly good.

Can you suggest a good financial deal for their acquisition as well whilst you are at it ?
Well, first and foremost, TCX will need to modernise their fleet sooner or later as some of their current a330-200s are leased i.e. G-VYGM etc. Also, if TCX want to establish themselves as '''competition' for all other hub carriers, then they need to re-evaluate and reconsider whether or not leasing A330s is the best way around their current problem ATM.
That is having a sufficient number of aircraft available to operate routes like BOS and SFO on the same dates i.e. Saturday's.

[RAS_2001]

I cannot suggest a good financial deal as my speciality is not in finance, business and management; but rather a more, let's say, enjoyable and exciting experience. I'm sure if TCX really did want to modernise both their fleet and the interior of the aircraft (to match that of the 787/a350/a330neo, they would undoubtedly do exactly that.

[chaps1954]

From what I hear the owned A330 are very nice inside and have a very product, second hand A330 will become easier to get now airlines are upgrading to A350s
however upgrading to brand new aircraft is a very expensive exercise and probably out of TCX pocket money at present.

[FFMAN]

Dullas is overwhelming dominated by United and A* partners and affiliates ( even Aer Lingus remain wedded to UA on this route sector !).

Problem is for Manchester many much and most of the UA connecting traffic from and to our area just seems better suited to the beyond services offered out of Newark today.

Back Washington if United can’t make it work standing alone of the Newark operation I am struggling to see anyone else making work in the near future.


Indeed. I was a regular on the UA100/101 MAN-IAD and it was great whilst it lasted. Business always seemed pretty full when I used it but then again - only 16 seats in the 757. Poking my head round the curtain to look at the back end, there were always empty seats. But I guess the main thing was when you deplane at IAD, the transit traffic goes one way and the P2P traffic goes another way. The transit traffic was always in the majority meaning that the actual MAN-IAD traffic wasn't great. Worse still the transit traffic can go via anywhere with anyone and usually goes with the cheapest price; and these days with so many non-stop alternatives there is probably less transit traffic too.

These days my MAN to Washington trips are either through EWR and take a leisurely train down to Union Station if I have the luxury of time...it's quite a nice trip and you end up in the centre of DC....Last time I flew to JFK with TCX - put MAN-IAD in to their booking system and they sold me a great connection to Dulles with Jet Blue (a great airline) at a compelling price. The connection was a doddle and the connecting flight 45-50 mins. Only problem I have doing that with TCX is for long haul I won't do economy and some of their flights are all economy.
I can't see a direct MAN-IAD again in the forseeable future sadly.

[virginblue]

Connected through T3 on Friday and it is really not a very pleasant experience. However, with Flybe more or less enjoying a monopoly as far as intl -> domestic connections are concerned, the choice is between worse and even worse, i.e. MAN or BHX. If you travel from the continent, the only alternative often is KLM via AMS to reach UK regional airports - which often tends to be quite expensive and has its own challenges at AMS.

To be honest, flying in Europe has become a rather unenjoyable experience. I used to do 100+ flights annually until a couple of years ago but have cut back flying dramatically. I use the train much more often these days and if travel is non-essential, I stay put and do video/telephone conferencing etc.

[RAS_2001]

Anybody have any insight on what the airport's current plans are on Chinese routes, and whether HU plan on starting CAN in Dec. 18?

[chaps1954]

Some excellent figures in June for Middle East with all except Saudi increasing by at least 8% and EK by 16%.

[ZOOKER]

Cargo Clown,

Let's hope that that a 4th terminal, south of 05R/23L in never approved.... Not now, not ever, never......(Apologies to the late, great, Andy Williams).

The folks who live in Heald Green, Wilmslow, Moss Nook, and Styal have suffered enough.

Recent posts on both here and on several FB groups/MEN/BBC have shown that current MAG/EGCC management suits can't run the 3 terminals they already have properly, so don't even think about a 4th.

[chaps1954]

As we know a terminal on south side will never happen due to it being in Cheshire

[MAN777]

They would have to build it on stilts as the bollin valley is one hell of a hole !!

[chaps1954]

True never even thought about that, the infrastructure would need a huge change as it just couldn`t cope and would make Wilmslow unbearable.

[Betablockeruk]

Have a week off in London. Get a free London Standard and read about Heathrow's woes passport control for more than two and a half hours (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/ending-queues-not-a-sensible-option-warns-heathrow-borders-chief-a3895866.html).

Get back to listen to colleague's complaints about Dubai's business class lounge queue for toilets.....

and then back on here. Is there an airport utopia and where is it? Probably an airport without passengers and labelled a 'white elephant'.

[boredintheairport]

Have a week off in London. Get a free London Standard and read about Heathrow's woes [snipped because I can't post URLs]

Get back to listen to colleague's complaints about Dubai's business class lounge queue for toilets.....

and then back on here. Is there an airport utopia and where is it? Probably an airport without passengers and labelled a 'white elephant'.

So the fact that other airports have problems means there should be no pressure on Manchester to improve? It's a false perspective.

Yes, Heathrow should sort out passport control (don't need a week to read the Evening Standard, though) and Dubai should serve less fibre in the dinner. But Manchester urgently needs to sort out its security nightmare, its haphazard implementation of parking charges. They are not mutually exclusive...

And there are plenty of airports with plenty of people that are far better (not just the classic Asian airports included in the list).

[ZOOKER]

MAN777, it is indeed, and along with Styal Woods, a very pleasant are for walking, horse riding, etc, as is most of the green space south of the airport. MAG have been allowed to tarmac too much of it already.

[Scottie Dog]

The CAA statistics for June are now out - minus Inverness and Jersey -so here is my monthly analysis. Please note that as I have added 3 American airports to Part 4 I'm afraid I have had to take 2 screenshots!

Anyway I hope you find it of interest.

https://image.ibb.co/fBYKjT/Screenshot_1.png
https://image.ibb.co/fyfzjT/Screenshot_2.png
https://image.ibb.co/jyU3B8/Screenshot_3.png
https://image.ibb.co/gu4EJo/Screenshot_4.png
https://image.ibb.co/keOkPT/Screenshot_7.png
https://image.ibb.co/maw5PT/Screenshot_5.png
https://image.ibb.co/iZnZJo/Screenshot_6.png

[Logohu]

Thanks for posting the stats Scottie.

The change to A350 and increase in frequency to daily certainly seems to have paid off for Cathay Pacific, with an average of 264 passengers per flight on 280 available seats for a 94.2% load factor !
No wonder they are upgrading to A350-1000 soon.

[RAS_2001]

Thanks for posting the stats Scottie.

The change to A350 and increase in frequency to daily certainly seems to have paid off for Cathay Pacific, with an average of 264 passengers per flight on 280 available seats for a 94.2% load factor !
No wonder they are upgrading to A350-1000 soon.
Presumably the upgrade to the -1000 will maximize the load factor and profitability of the route. As you say, a 94.2% load factor is quite impressive considering how the route itself was called off the first time round, especially since Cathay were using the B747-300/400 back in the day. The capacity of a single -1000 is 366 compared to the 900's 280.

[160to4DME]

Am I missing something, or is SIN on a continual downward slide..?

[CabinCrewe]

Perhaps surprisingly if CX are doing a better job for Far East/Australasia than SQ their increases might explain drop in Singapore. Is there a big price differential or better timings?

[LAX_LHR]

SQ hasn’t been on a ‘continual downward slide’, it’s actually been increasing for a long time beforehand too.

[ZOOKER]

The statistics posted by Scottie Dog are, as always, interesting. As opposed to pax departing to all these destinations, are there a complimentary set for arriving pax?

How many travellers, for each destination, start and finish their trips at EGCC, as opposed to those pax starting and finishing, 'at the other end', and going home again?

No real axe to grind, but as a 'human geographer', just curious as to where everyone's going?

[MKY661]

I would imagine the reduction in passengers on a few Spain routes would be because of Monarch? I know they used to operate AGP, ALC, PMI & TFS twice a day and EasyJet have continued to operate most of them just once a day this year, and they're not on the A321 for that matter.

[boredintheairport]

The statistics posted by Scottie Dog are, as always, interesting. As opposed to pax departing to all these destinations, are there a complimentary set for arriving pax?

How many travellers, for each destination, start and finish their trips at EGCC, as opposed to those pax starting and finishing, 'at the other end', and going home again?

No real axe to grind, but as a 'human geographer', just curious as to where everyone's going?

This is a very interesting question. I would suspect that while the route figures at an aggregate level are commercially neutral (given they have to be reported to the government) the level of detail to answer your question is commercially sensitive. Therefore, the only data points available is experience, which is always a fun way to kill time at the airport or on the flight.

A passing ear to the languages spoken might give an indication, though I am fully aware people may just be speaking their mother tongue and I do not begrudge them this! Language and identity go hand in hand, and it doesn't give any evidence to their residence status. However, in the absence of anything else it's a fun way to pass the time.

As a very small sample: the flights to Charleroi are pretty balanced language group wise with a split of English, French and Flemish on the flight, so an even mixture of in and outbound.

Eindhoven on FR: I heard a lot of Dutch the past 4 times I took the flight, more so than English. Though weirdly the advertisement for lottery cards and Duty Free was in German. Therefore assume a bias towards inbound to MAN.

Amsterdam on KLM: heavily dominated by Far East traffic, non-native English speakers. Judging by volume of luggage checked in, possibly long term. Students returning home? Mixture inbound and outbound.

Amsterdam on easyJet/Flybe: English dominates, so imagine outbound tourism.

Cathay Pacific: hard to tell as it's a bigger plane, but English and Australian accents were common.

The flights to Orlando, though, appeared to be nearly 100% solidly local accents heading outbound.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The statistics posted by Scottie Dog are, as always, interesting. As opposed to pax departing to all these destinations, are there a complimentary set for arriving pax?
Great point IMHO,one of the reason's MAN's US flights have faltered to a degree is that with Thomas Cook offering so many good deals to the US, the US legacies have taken a hit which means their ability to offer year round connectivity bringing in business and dollar spend in low season is further impacted. Norwegian does have some US POS but I would be willing to bet they, and Primera are heavily ex EU centric and hence taking money out of the country !
Happy to be proved wrong if someone can quantify?

[FFMAN]

This subject has always interested me over the years and - as 'boredintheairport' has mentioned - it's a good way to kill time on the journey.
I guess the answer is, it depends.

As already mentioned, if you are on one of the 'classic' sun routes to Majorca, the Costas or Orlando you can understandably expect near 100% UK nationals. However it has often surprised me how many foreign nationals are on other flights to/from Manchester. I remember waiting to board an EZY flight to Thessaloniki a couple of years back and listening to the languages and looking at passports, it was amazing to realize that this was not really a 'sun flight' as might be assumed, as there were not only plenty of Greeks but also Macedonians too (the FYROM kind).

Lots of Germans on LH flights etc. I would say a majority of Scandinavian flights have majority Scandies on board - Manchester's light seems to shine brightly in those parts.

Go further east and when traveling to eastern Europe destinations I have always been in the minority as a UK national. I would guess too that there are other routes (like the Iraqi flights) where there would be almost no UK citizens aboard.
My flights with Hainan have indicated around a 50:50 split (assumed) UK / Chinese in Business Class but it appears to be solidly Chinese down the back - although as always, it's difficult to tell which are Chinese nationals and which are British Chinese unless you see the passport..
What has surprised me most is the number of US citizens on our TATL flights even on TCX routes.

[inOban]

Thanks for that very interesting analysis. I wonder what the splits would be at other airports apart from LHR/LGW.

[GLAEDI]

Thanks for that very interesting analysis. I wonder what the splits would be at other airports apart from LHR/LGW.

From my experience of GLA & EDI, the TATL are close to 80% US & CAN bascically due to the fall of the £ against the respective $s. It’s noticeable that TCX & VS/DL MCOs have had a huge increase in US nationals at Glasgow, where in the day it was single figures it’s now around 60-100 pax per flight using the Florida services with corresponding drop in Brits visiting the Land of Mouse. Only Thomson Sanford being more or less solely Brits

[FFMAN]

Thanks for that very interesting analysis. I wonder what the splits would be at other airports apart from LHR/LGW.

It's not analysis - just my observations only.
Let's not do the other airports - it's the Manchester thread not GLA/EDI

[inOban]

Apologies for going off topic. My interests are in transport in general rather than any particular airport.

[boredintheairport]

This subject has always interested me over the years and - as 'boredintheairport' has mentioned - it's a good way to kill time on the journey.
I guess the answer is, it depends.

As already mentioned, if you are on one of the 'classic' sun routes to Majorca, the Costas or Orlando you can understandably expect near 100% UK nationals. However it has often surprised me how many foreign nationals are on other flights to/from Manchester. I remember waiting to board an EZY flight to Thessaloniki a couple of years back and listening to the languages and looking at passports, it was amazing to realize that this was not really a 'sun flight' as might be assumed, as there were not only plenty of Greeks but also Macedonians too (the FYROM kind).

Lots of Germans on LH flights etc. I would say a majority of Scandinavian flights have majority Scandies on board - Manchester's light seems to shine brightly in those parts.

Go further east and when traveling to eastern Europe destinations I have always been in the minority as a UK national. I would guess too that there are other routes (like the Iraqi flights) where there would be almost no UK citizens aboard.
My flights with Hainan have indicated around a 50:50 split (assumed) UK / Chinese in Business Class but it appears to be solidly Chinese down the back - although as always, it's difficult to tell which are Chinese nationals and which are British Chinese unless you see the passport..
What has surprised me most is the number of US citizens on our TATL flights even on TCX routes.

Some of this is follow the diaspora: there's a big eastern European and Turkish diaspora in the North West, so flights to and from there always seem to be heavily VFR in both directions, hard to disentangle which way round.

I was surprised on a recent Barcelona flight to hear a lot of Spanish spoken, I had assumed it would be heavily outbound sun tourists.

You say that about Iraqi airways, and might say it about Saudia too, but when I've ended up sitting near the boarding queue for both I've heard a surprising number of English accents boarding. Appeared to be oil/industry workers, which makes sense.

[LAX_LHR]

I’ve flown to Bilbao and Granada from MAN a few times and there was a larger tilt towards Spanish nationals rather than Brits.

[FFHKG]

Similar experience on IB from MAD to MCR which is predominantly Spanish

[roverman]

OK, let the speculation begin (and it is just that). Thomas Cook's Scandinavian arm are using the Hi-Fly A380. MT have two or even three flights from MAN to Orlando on certain days next summer. Not sure what the seating configuration is on the big bus but the thought that two of these could be combined on a single A380 thus releasing a couple of A330s has got to have crossed someone's mind other than mine. Lots of other factors to consider of course.

[roverman]

Presumably the upgrade to the -1000 will maximize the load factor and profitability of the route. As you say, a 94.2% load factor is quite impressive considering how the route itself was called off the first time round, especially since Cathay were using the B747-300/400 back in the day. The capacity of a single -1000 is 366 compared to the 900's 280.


Think it's actually 334 seats in the 3-class A35X they'll be using on European runs, but still a good increase over the A359. Currently only showing the up-gauge for Dec-Feb but surely got to be a longer term capacity rise in the pipeline, given the high load factors which this route has sustained.

[RAS_2001]

Think it's actually 334 seats in the 3-class A35X they'll be using on European runs, but still a good increase over the A359. Currently only showing the up-gauge for Dec-Feb but surely got to be a longer term capacity rise in the pipeline, given the high load factors which this route has sustained.
Yes, however that is high density.

[Una Due Tfc]

OK, let the speculation begin (and it is just that). Thomas Cook's Scandinavian arm are using the Hi-Fly A380. MT have two or even three flights from MAN to Orlando on certain days next summer. Not sure what the seating configuration is on the big bus but the thought that two of these could be combined on a single A380 thus releasing a couple of A330s has got to have crossed someone's mind other than mine. Lots of other factors to consider of course.

It’s approx 400 Economy, 60 Business and 12 First IIRC, same config as it’s former life in SQ, so unless Kestrel are willing to swallow a serious cost on free upgrades, totally unsuitable for their operation I would think bar emergency cover like it’s doing for them now at Rhodes after the airports IT system collapsed.

And credit where it’s due, pax badly affected by the IT issue at the airport, and rather than pulling a LOCO “outside of our control” move, they hired a super to get their customers home. Well done Thomas Cook.

[RAS_2001]

I'm highly doubtful as to whether we will see a hi-fly 388 in Manchester anytime soon. However, that's not to rule out the possibility of it operating TransAtlantic routes from Manchester i.e. flights to the Caribbean, or destinations like LAX and SFO.

[forbesd]

Presumably the upgrade to the -1000 will maximize the load factor and profitability of the route. As you say, a 94.2% load factor is quite impressive considering how the route itself was called off the first time round, especially since Cathay were using the B747-300/400 back in the day. The capacity of a single -1000 is 366 compared to the 900's 280.

Just had my CX 216 booking on Monday Dec 10 to HK cancelled offering me 9 Dec, 11 Dec, or via Paris on 10 December. Dont know if it is the only change yet?

[chaps1954]

You only need an A330 to go tech for a couple of days and it would sort it very easily

[RAS_2001]

You only need an A330 to go tech for a couple of days and it would sort it very easily
Good one...

chaps,

[ETOPS]

If you are driving in from the east tomorrow I believe Ringway Road (past the Moss Nook) will be closed and airport traffic will be using a part of the new dual carriageway from near the Shell station. Best take it slow as there will be lots of confused passengers getting lost down Shadow Moss Rd :confused:

[110Cornets]

Just had my CX 216 booking on Monday Dec 10 to HK cancelled offering me 9 Dec, 11 Dec, or via Paris on 10 December. Dont know if it is the only change yet?

CX have a series of one-off cancellations over the Winter 18-19 period. Here's MAN schedule for December. It looks like you had some bad luck there!

01DEC18-28DEC18 MTWTFSS MANCHESTER /HONG KONG
11DEC 1234567 MAN HKG 1130# 0705 CX 216 351*C
09DEC 1234567 MAN HKG 1130# 0705 CX 216 351*C

(sorry, I can't format this any better - it just shows that the current schedule ends on 9 Dec and commences again on 11 Dec)

CDG/FRA/MXP/LGW and even LHR have short term or one-off cancellations through this period too.

[spannersatcx]

CX have a series of one-off cancellations over the Winter 18-19 period. Here's MAN schedule for December. It looks like you had some bad luck there!

01DEC18-28DEC18 MTWTFSS MANCHESTER /HONG KONG
11DEC 1234567 MAN HKG 1130# 0705 CX 216 351*C
09DEC 1234567 MAN HKG 1130# 0705 CX 216 351*C

(sorry, I can't format this any better - it just shows that the current schedule ends on 9 Dec and commences again on 11 Dec)

CDG/FRA/MXP/LGW and even LHR have short term or one-off cancellations through this period too.

Flts cancelled 14/21-11, 10/12, 17/22-1/19, 25/28-1/19, 21/24-2/19, 5/20-3/19.

[boredintheairport]

The statistics posted by Scottie Dog are, as always, interesting. As opposed to pax departing to all these destinations, are there a complimentary set for arriving pax?

How many travellers, for each destination, start and finish their trips at EGCC, as opposed to those pax starting and finishing, 'at the other end', and going home again?

No real axe to grind, but as a 'human geographer', just curious as to where everyone's going?

As a follow-on. Which are the primary business routes? The holiday and VFR routes are very easy to identify, less so the business routes (either by logic or by appearance of traveller).

[MANFOD]

CX;

Flts cancelled 14/21-11, 10/12, 17/22-1/19, 25/28-1/19, 21/24-2/19, 5/20-3/19.

Spanners, I hope we are still getting the A350-10 for the 3 months. Those 7 cancelled flights in that period will slightly offset the extra capacity provided by the larger a/c. Surprised at 4 days cancelled in January - I assume the reason for the 350-10 was increased demand in the pre and post-Christmas period.

[chaps1954]

Is it becasue deliveries are running a little late so with all routes loosing a few flights might add up to 1 aircraft short?

[easyflyer83]

Just to add to the debate about nationalities on flights based on my experience . City/business destinations can be very mixed between Brits and locals. BIO is often heavily skewed towards Spanish and SKG in the winter is predominantly Greek. KEF sees a lot of Icelandic’s heading to Manchester (for some City culture/life no doubt given where they live) There can be a large number of non-EU nationals on most city/business routes too. Lots of Chinese, Australians, Canadians and Americans. Indeed, my carrier has an American website.

Holiday destinations, unsurprisingly, tend the be mainly Brits of course but places like PFO can see a large number of Cypriot students at various times of the year. Some of the more upmarket Greek destinations such as JTR and JMK can also see a number of non-Eu nationals too.

TLV is of course a massive VFR Route from both ends of the route.

[spannersatcx]

Is it becasue deliveries are running a little late so with all routes loosing a few flights might add up to 1 aircraft short?

Actually the last one was delivered early! But the one scheduled before that is yet to be delivered. The number of deliveries for this year has increased from 6 to 8, with the last one being 24th Dec!!!

[VickersVicount]

planned Jet Airways Mumbai now 5 times per week

[ZOOKER]

boredintheairport,

Surely many of the VFR routes declined when they demolished the 'south side hangars' and built R/W 2?

[The96er]

boredintheairport,

Surely many of the VFR routes declined when they demolished the 'south side hangars' and built R/W 2?

VFR in the context 'boredintheairport' refers to means 'Visiting Friends and Relatives', not visual flight rules.

[boredintheairport]

VFR in the context 'boredintheairport' refers to means 'Visiting Friends and Relatives', not visual flight rules.

Indeed. You would think given that both are terms common in the aviation industry, they would remove opportunity for collinearity.

Visiting Relatives and Friends VRF would seem like a simple fix.

Either way, The96er is correct, I mean Visiting Friends and Relatives.

[easyflyer83]

Both are terms used in aviation but there is very little crossover. Visual Flight Rules is a very operational term where as Visiting Friends & Relatives is merely a categorisation of passenger for the marketing bods. The latter term is actually never used operationally.

[160to4DME]

planned Jet Airways Mumbai now 5 times per week

Jet facing a cash crisis...

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/jet-airways-warns-time-funds-running-out-carrier-maybe-grounded-in-60-days-source/articleshow/65255075.cms

[Curious Pax]

Indeed. You would think given that both are terms common in the aviation industry, they would remove opportunity for collinearity.

Visiting Relatives and Friends VRF would seem like a simple fix.

Either way, The96er is correct, I mean Visiting Friends and Relatives.

Well I got the witticism Zooker, even if no one else did!

[ZOOKER]

Thanks CP. I've honestly never encountered the other version.

[boredintheairport]

Both are terms used in aviation but there is very little crossover. Visual Flight Rules is a very operational term where as Visiting Friends & Relatives is merely a categorisation of passenger for the marketing bods. The latter term is actually never used operationally.
Unless you are a leisure pilot in a non-instrumented plane when you could operate a VFR VFR flight.

[ZOOKER]

You could do it in a commercial or military aircraft, stuffed full of instruments, too, (which can still fly under VFR), but not in Class A airspace.

[refuelers]

Can anyone please explain when this agreement of 50 flights, excluding London airports, comes into force over new flights from China to the UK, and vice versa, I have just noticed that Air China have said they will start an extra 3 flights per week , arriving early morning, from Beijing into LHR, There have also been a few new announcements of other airlines adding Heathrow, Hainan i think is one. Just wondering, thats all.

[Rutan16]

Refuelers Air China are already operating up to 3 daily flights into Heathrow right now the additional flight is CA616/617 and it’s unreported !

They are adding an overnight flight shortly.

The bilateral is already active however the real demand and route profitability isn’t actually present.

As said many times Chinese aviation is smoke and mirrors - indeed many of those carriers are little more than shells and the routes operated so heavily subsidised by the local/regional governments it would find many western companies in court for fraud !

They are operated directly as a result of a dictate from the highest authority of the PRC and the Chinese tax payer is paying big time - it’s pure politics at work as part of the Chinese Global domination statergy.
Makes the ME3 seem quite amateurish and it’s far more worrying imho.

HNA Group is built on these Shells and those routes by Capitol, Tianjin and Hainan to Changsha are stuffed with CAISSA tourists very low yielding and are little more than charters in reality. Below stairs plenty of boxes through.
What they are not doing is opening new UK export and business opportunities through.
Certain British politicians and indeed ministers need to take note imho !

Similarly I fully expect the China Southern route to Wuhan to disappear soon as Daxing opens especially as CZ Has been awarded the route over China Eastern.

China Eastern is for some reason less than favoured in Beijing -Well,its actually because Shanghai refuses to alllow Air China slots for already awarded routes there ( one of which is Manchester !)

To consider the genuine demand just look at Edinburgh numbers again without CAISSA tourists they would be in single figures !

Manchester has pretty much settled at load factors in the 80% range .

[refuelers]

Refuelers Air China are already operating up to 3 daily flights into Heathrow right now the additional flight is CA616/617 and it’s unreported !

They are adding an overnight flight shortly.

The bilateral is already active however the real demand and route profitability isn’t actually present.

As said many times Chinese aviation is smoke and mirrors - indeed many of those carriers are little more than shells and the routes operated so heavily subsidised by the local/regional governments it would find many western companies in court for fraud !

They are operated directly as a result of a dictate from the highest authority of the PRC and the Chinese tax payer is paying big time - it’s pure politics at work as part of the Chinese Global domination statergy.
Makes the ME3 seem quite amateurish and it’s far more worrying imho.

HNA Group is built on these Shells and those routes by Capitol, Tianjin and Hainan to Changsha are stuffed with CAISSA tourists very low yielding and are little more than charters in reality. Below stairs plenty of boxes through.
What they are not doing is opening new UK export and business opportunities through.
Certain British politicians and indeed ministers need to take note imho !

Similarly I fully expect the China Southern route to Wuhan to disappear soon as Daxing opens especially as CZ Has been awarded the route over China Eastern.

China Eastern is for some reason less than favoured in Beijing -Well,its actually because Shanghai refuses to alllow Air China slots for already awarded routes there ( one of which is Manchester !)

To consider the genuine demand just look at Edinburgh numbers again without CAISSA tourists they would be in single figures !

Manchester has pretty much settled at load factors in the 80% range .
Rutan, Thanks for the quick reply, i fully understand now. Yes i know LHR is favoured by airlines, just seems a shame for the rest of the UK airports.

[refuelers]

Refuelers Air China are already operating up to 3 daily flights into Heathrow right now the additional flight is CA616/617 and it’s unreported !

They are adding an overnight flight shortly.

The bilateral is already active however the real demand and route profitability isn’t actually present.

As said many times Chinese aviation is smoke and mirrors - indeed many of those carriers are little more than shells and the routes operated so heavily subsidised by the local/regional governments it would find many western companies in court for fraud !

They are operated directly as a result of a dictate from the highest authority of the PRC and the Chinese tax payer is paying big time - it’s pure politics at work as part of the Chinese Global domination statergy.
Makes the ME3 seem quite amateurish and it’s far more worrying imho.

HNA Group is built on these Shells and those routes by Capitol, Tianjin and Hainan to Changsha are stuffed with CAISSA tourists very low yielding and are little more than charters in reality. Below stairs plenty of boxes through.
What they are not doing is opening new UK export and business opportunities through.
Certain British politicians and indeed ministers need to take note imho !

Similarly I fully expect the China Southern route to Wuhan to disappear soon as Daxing opens especially as CZ Has been awarded the route over China Eastern.

China Eastern is for some reason less than favoured in Beijing -Well,its actually because Shanghai refuses to alllow Air China slots for already awarded routes there ( one of which is Manchester !)

To consider the genuine demand just look at Edinburgh numbers again without CAISSA tourists they would be in single figures !

Manchester has pretty much settled at load factors in the 80% range .






Thanks Rutan, much appreciated for the explanation.

[Navpi]

Whilst the situation with Jet is still fluid I suspect if there is any doubt about the service MAN would prefer the situation to normalise first rather than have a chaotic stop/start service and one that is all to evident at Birmingham.
In other words if they cannot commit to a cohesive service , possibly best to wait until they can.

My timeline is STILL showing numerous references to Birmingham a week after Primera have finally canned them.
Its a steady drip , drip of bad publicity.

Much better not to start at all than have an adhoc on-going weeping wound of puss which immerses the airport in torrid publicity on a weekly basis. (see also STN)

[VickersVicount]

routes operated so heavily subsidised by the local/regional governments i

HNA Group is built on these Shells and those routes by Capitol, Tianjin and Hainan to Changsha are stuffed with CAISSA tourists very low yielding and are little more than charters in reality.

To consider the genuine demand just look at Edinburgh numbers again without CAISSA tourists they would be in single figures !

Ooft dont let the EDI posters see that, they'll have a seizure! Be interesting to see HA loads mid winter if thats the case.

[VickersVicount]

Jet Airways
https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/jet-airways-sinks-60-days-of-cash-left/

[BHX5DME]

Even more China now added from London

Shanghai 3x weekly from Dec.

China Eastern from December 2018 is expanding service to London, with the addition of Shanghai Pu Dong – London Gatwick service. From 07DEC18, Airbus A330-200 aircraft will operate this route 3 times a week.

MU201 PVG0145 – 0630LGW 332 257
MU202 LGW1150 – 0730+1PVG 332 5
MU202 LGW1200 – 0730+1PVG 332 2
MU202 LGW1210 – 0730+1PVG 332 7

https://www.routesonline.com/news/3...hanghai-london-gatwick-service-from-dec-2018/ (https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/279931/china-eastern-adds-shanghai-london-gatwick-service-from-dec-2018/)

[MANFOD]

Sorry, but I don't see what that has to do with the MAN thread unless you are claiming it's a route MAN has lost out on. If so, I assume you've posted it on the BHX forum as well as they need a Chinese route.

[RAS_2001]

Sorry, but I don't see what that has to do with the MAN thread unless you are claiming it's a route MAN has lost out on. If so, I assume you've posted it on the BHX forum as well as they need a Chinese route.
I completely agree with you in stating that it nonsensical to be posting about informqtion regarding an airline which is commencing a new route from entirely diffferent airport (LGW). Also, LGW is not associated with Manchester in any way as it isn'ta member of MAG...
Additionally, it is operated by Gatwick Airport Limited.

[RAS_2001]

Any update on TG..... ???

[BHX5DME]

Sorry, but I don't see what that has to do with the MAN thread unless you are claiming it's a route MAN has lost out on. If so, I assume you've posted it on the BHX forum as well as they need a Chinese route.

I only posted it becuase it is yet another example of the South East rather than the regions gaining Chinese flights despite the additional slots (UK-China) which were granted for non-London airports

And yes I agree BHX does need a Chinese flight but little hope with all the extra capacity going into SE

[brian70]

Total spotter question for you, want to take the kids to the AVP this school holidays and was wondering if anyone knows how much the bus costs from the airport to the AVP. Needs to be the bus that goes to the AVP due to one child not being able to walk long distances otherwise would get the bus to the freight terminal

[DomyDom]

Even more China now added from London

Shanghai 3x weekly from Dec.

China Eastern from December 2018 is expanding service to London, with the addition of Shanghai Pu Dong – London Gatwick service. From 07DEC18, Airbus A330-200 aircraft will operate this route 3 times a week.

MU201 PVG0145 – 0630LGW 332 257
MU202 LGW1150 – 0730+1PVG 332 5
MU202 LGW1200 – 0730+1PVG 332 2
MU202 LGW1210 – 0730+1PVG 332 7

https://www.routesonline.com/news/3...hanghai-london-gatwick-service-from-dec-2018/ (https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/279931/china-eastern-adds-shanghai-london-gatwick-service-from-dec-2018/)No offence meant BHX5DME but surely this would be better posted on the LGW thread rather than MAN. What is the relevance?

[Suzeman]

No offence meant BHX5DME but surely this would be better posted on the LGW thread rather than MAN. What is the relevance?

See post 2196 posted some while ago for an explanation of the relevance to UK regional airports.

[MANFOD]

See post 2196 posted some while ago for an explanation of the relevance to UK regional airports.

I think it would have been helpful if the explanation given in post 2198 had been included in the original post, which could have been interpreted as a MAN put-down, (something not unknown in the past), given MAN isn't the only non-London airport striving to win routes to China.

Be that as it may, it is indeed disappointing that there has been so little action since the extra slots for UK regional airports to China were granted. (Are the new EDI/DUB flights part of that?). Although HU have applied for slots from MAN to Guangzhou, there's no indication of anything happening anytime soon. And would that be the right route anyway bearing in mind PEK was only 4 x weekly this summer compared to daily for a period in 2017? As for rights held by Air China for MAN-PVG, goodness knows what the situation is there - politics over getting slots at Shanghai, simply a blocking ploy by Air China? Anyone got an update?

[buzz_hornet]

Use MAN at the weekend for the first time. no real issues. Missus got hauled at security for having her straighteners in her hand luggage, which i thought was strange as no issue leaving BFS with them. I should add that we travel using one of the lanyards so probably a little easier. Security looked nuts in the standard queue.

[RAS_2001]

CA were initially expected to start operating the route mid-2016, but obviously politics had prevented the airline from announcing the proposed 4 weekly service from MAN-PVG.

I must say it will be interesting to see what transpires over the next few months to see whether a third or even fourth long-haul addition it added to the MAN network. If anything, I would say the most likely third haul link could be HU- CAN, TG- BKK, and/or BBC- ZYL/DAC.

[LAX_LHR]

VLM are having restructure (again) so will cancel all UK routes bar London City. This means MAN routes will not start.

hands up who didn’t see that one coming! :ugh:

[RAS_2001]

VLM are having restructure (again) so will cancel all UK routes bar London City. This means MAN routes will not start.

hands up who didn’t see that one coming! :ugh:
could you at least have the decency to post a link to back up this claim!?

[LAX_LHR]

No need to be so rude about it but there we go.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/vlm/vlm-to-cancel-all-routes-except-london-city-and-zurich-and-to-expand-charter-activities/#click=https://t.co/YdCHrs4Pht

[Lee J]

could you at least have the decency to post a link to back up this claim!?

P**S OFF you rude bugger :mad:

[RAS_2001]

No need to be so rude about it but there we go.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/vlm/vlm-to-cancel-all-routes-except-london-city-and-zurich-and-to-expand-charter-activities/#click=https://t.co/YdCHrs4Pht
Thanks LAX, just needed some clarification that's all!
😁

[LAX_LHR]

That’s fine, but as said, no need to be rude about it.

[Scottie Dog]

P**S OFF you rude bugger :mad:
"Pot calling kettle black" comes to mind.

[Trav a la]

Just picked some friends up at T3 who arrived at 19.35 off an FR flight. No problems at Immigration control, just a few minutes, however, they then waited an hour and a half for their baggage in a very busy baggage hall. Later arriving flights bags came through quickly, eventually theirs arrived on a different carousel along with another flights bags. Not happy bunnies.

[Lee J]

"Pot calling kettle black" comes to mind.

Maybe in the 50's mate but in this day and age, its called sticking up for a decent member who is a great source of proven information to this thread :=

[160to4DME]

Thanks LAX, just needed some clarification that's all!
😁


Ever heard of Google?

I appreciate you're new around these parts, but one of the givens is that we don't need to be spoon fed or nannied.

[RAS_2001]

Ever heard of Google?

I appreciate you're new around these parts, but one of the givens is that we don't need to be spoon fed or nannied.
I'm not intending on being "spoonfed and nannied", but morso critical as no source of info. had been provided preliminarily.

[OSTpax]

VLM airlines are a bunch of ...
Still selling tickets for routes that are scrapped.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Just picked some friends up at T3 who arrived at 19.35 off an FR flight. No problems at Immigration control, just a few minutes, however, they then waited an hour and a half for their baggage in a very busy baggage hall. Later arriving flights bags came through quickly, eventually theirs arrived on a different carousel along with another flights bags. Not happy bunnies.


Tell them to use a better airline next time.

[Trav a la]

Tell them to use a better airline next time.
Ha Ha, they were on their way back to Yorkshire too. Your companies policy of self handling does pay dividends.

[29Alpha]

Use MAN at the weekend for the first time. no real issues. Missus got hauled at security for having her straighteners in her hand luggage, which i thought was strange as no issue leaving BFS with them. I should add that we travel using one of the lanyards so probably a little easier. Security looked nuts in the standard queue.
you were travelling with a lanyard that uses hair straighteners??, thats not nice calling the wife a lanyard lol, only kidding. Does a lanyard mean u are an employee??

[LAX_LHR]

Easyjet add 2 weekly Budapest from 5th November.

[Betablockeruk]

Easyjet add 2 weekly Budapest from 5th November.


Getting a bit of a 3 way fight now. Jet2 v Ryanair v easyJet.

Wonder if anyone fancies going for a similar sounding place in Romania?

[LAX_LHR]

I’ll admit that while expansion is great, the route choices have been a little lacklustr given the competition.

Lisbon sees TAP and Ryanair
innsbruck sees Jet2, Austrian, TUI, Flybe and Thomas Cook
Budapest sees Ryanair and Jet2
Lanzarote and Faro sees TUI, Thomas Cook, Ryanair and Jet2
Barcelona sees Vueling, Jet2 and Ryanair.

only Bordeaux saw no competition.

meanwhile, Warsaw Chopin is now served by easyJet’s but no route from Manchester (there is Ryanair to Modlin but Chopin is better), Bucharest remains stubbornly unserved, Zurich is crying out for lower fares and TLV/GIB bumping along at a stupidly low frequency,

cant win them all I suppose.

[brian_dromey]

cant win them all I suppose.

INN is very seasonal and driven by skiers between Jan and March, quite a few on package holidays. So its not surprising to see so many operators there and I think the BE and OS are pure charters, I think you can book seat-only on the TUI and some TCX services though. In the summer, GIB is fairly well covered by AGP, but has never recovered to the frequency MON used to operate.

[MANFOD]

While it's good to see easyjet expanding, the choice of routes is sometimes surprising, I agree.
Was Aarhus mentioned fairly recently for EZY, or was that a SAS slot application that wasn't activated? I might be confused.

As for Bucharest, with a second carrier starting from LPL (Wizz), it is beginning to look just as elusive as ever for MAN perhaps.

July saw a small increase in terminal pax of 0.45% which nevertheless is slightly better than the projected overall seat capacity for the summer compared to 2017.

[Plane.Silly]

I'd imagine airlines are becoming more wary of operating untested routes or ones percieved to be non starters. Which goes against the logic of a LCC anyway, they're supposed to be operating these crazy routes, then if they don't work, can them after a year of less

Come on Ryanair/EasyJet, where's your sense of adventure... stop relying on 'Computer Says No' and give us the new destinations!

[inOban]

Not until our future relationship with continental Europe becomes clearer.

[chaps1954]

I would think one issue at the moment is the exchange rate as it is very poor for UK travellers

[Scottie Dog]

Terminal passengers - 27,928,850 +2.57%
Total (Inc transits passengers) - 28,025,758 - +2.47%

[easyflyer83]

I don't want to sound tribal here, I've worked for both LCC and network carriers.

I think there some are being slightly unfair on easyJet. It's not theirs or other LCC's responsibility to boost MAN's route portfolio but to operate where the best returns are. Plus there are a number of easyJet routes that were missing from the airports network.

BIO - No airline on the route
TIV - Totally brand new route
TLV- Maintained route after LS pulled it and when ZB collapsed
BSL-Not operated since the days of Crossair
SXF-Glaring omission to MAN's portfolio
DME-Not operated on a scheduled basis for many years. Unfortunate timing given the struggling Russian economy and sanctions
SKG- Year round service to an important Greek city that is widely used by Greek locals
MRS - Don't think there was much competition ??
RAK - No scheduled competition when it was launched
GRX - No competition

The thing is, some enthusiasts are fickle. If OK, relaunched PRG, AZ began operating to MXP or LY does launch TLV, there will be many with more optimistic views.

I'm sure easyJet will continue to launch routes that are new or underserved at MAN just like they have done with the above list. I have no real knowledge of any new routes but I could see WAW as a possibility i guess now it's on the wider network.

Either way, easyJet operates more of Europes top 10 city pairs than any other airline. IMO, along with MT on long haul and BE on domestic, they are the closest that MAN has to a home carrier and they can't adequately do that by omitting the big pairings of AMS, CDG, MXP, PMI, FAO etc in a bid to ponly chasing thinner or secondary routes.

[Logohu]

Good points there Easyflyer. I guess there is a fine balance between a route being under-served and becoming over-served, but MAN is fortunate now to have the catchment area and critical mass to be able to support multiple carriers on so many city pairs.

Many an airport would kill to have an easyJet base the size of the one at MAN, the footfall and revenue it generates through the terminals is enormous compared to, shall we say, some of the more exotic tails that turn up once or twice a day. Great to see easyJet expanding.

[DomyDom]

I don't want to sound tribal here, I've worked for both LCC and network carriers.

I think there some are being slightly unfair on easyJet. It's not their or other LCC's responsibility to boost MAN's route portfolio but to operate where the best returns are. Plus there are a number of easyJet routes that were missing from the airports network.

BIO - No airline on the route
TIV - Totally brand new route
TLV- Maintained route after LS pulled it and when ZB collapsed
BSL-Not operated since the days of Crossair
SXF-Glaring omission to MAN's portfolio
DME-Not operated on a scheduled basis for many years. Unfortunate timing given the struggling Russian economy and sanctions
SKG- Year round service to an important Greek city that is widely used by Greek locals
MRS - Don't think there was much competition ??
RAK - No scheduled competition when it was launched
GRX - No competition

The thing is, some enthusiasts are fickle. If OK, relaunched PRG, AZ began operating to MXP or LY does launch TLV, there will be many with more optimistic views.

I'm sure easyJet will continue to launch routes that are new or underserved at MAN just like they have done with the above list. I have no real knowledge of any new routes but I could see WAW as a possibility i guess now it's on the wider network.

Either way, easyJet operates more of Europes top 10 city pairs than any other airline. IMO, along with MT on long haul and BE on domestic, they are the closest that MAN has to a home carrier and they can't adequately do that by omitting the big pairings of AMS, CDG, MXP, PMI, FAO etc in a bid to ponly chasing thinner or secondary routes.

I agree easyflyer83, it's a difficult balance but we now have some great routes that we would never have had otherwise. Easyjet have been good for MAN however they do often seem to change plans ref. expansion late in the day. That may be a strength in terms of flexibility but it can look like a lack of commitment. The other side of the coin is that when they annoumce routes they usually stay. Overall I think they provide a great service and provide many fantastic routes. It would be great to see somewhere in NW Spain e.g. SCQ or elsewhere in Corunia however.

[businessair75]

Correct me if i'm wrong but easyJet has never publicly announced expansion and then gone back on it. Whatever goes on behind the scenes is a totally different ball game.

[LAX_LHR]

I don't want to sound tribal here, I've worked for both LCC and network carriers.

I think there some are being slightly unfair on easyJet. It's not theirs or other LCC's responsibility to boost MAN's route portfolio but to operate where the best returns are. Plus there are a number of easyJet routes that were missing from the airports network.

BIO - No airline on the route
TIV - Totally brand new route
TLV- Maintained route after LS pulled it and when ZB collapsed
BSL-Not operated since the days of Crossair
SXF-Glaring omission to MAN's portfolio
DME-Not operated on a scheduled basis for many years. Unfortunate timing given the struggling Russian economy and sanctions
SKG- Year round service to an important Greek city that is widely used by Greek locals
MRS - Don't think there was much competition ??
RAK - No scheduled competition when it was launched
GRX - No competition

The thing is, some enthusiasts are fickle. If OK, relaunched PRG, AZ began operating to MXP or LY does launch TLV, there will be many with more optimistic views.

I'm sure easyJet will continue to launch routes that are new or underserved at MAN just like they have done with the above list. I have no real knowledge of any new routes but I could see WAW as a possibility i guess now it's on the wider network.

Either way, easyJet operates more of Europes top 10 city pairs than any other airline. IMO, along with MT on long haul and BE on domestic, they are the closest that MAN has to a home carrier and they can't adequately do that by omitting the big pairings of AMS, CDG, MXP, PMI, FAO etc in a bid to ponly chasing thinner or secondary routes.

just to clarify. I wasn’t advocating Easyjet purely go after unserved markets, and indeed, Easyjet have put a few of them on the table, Bordeaux being their latest example.

what I was questioning I said the longevity of some of their other routes in that I don’t believe all of these routes have the staying power for *all* of the carriers on those Routes. I don’t believe Lisbon can support 3 carriers, nor do I believe Budapest can either. Barcelona’s yields may suffer again as I not bełive easyjet will stay at 2 weekly on that route. With these concerns, it may not be Easyjet that suffer, but someone is likely to and that she not good for the bigger picture overall.

fair play to Easyjet for having a go and expansion is most welcome, but don’t forget it’s only expansion if it adds, rather than just replaces something else.

[roverman]

Indeed, with over-supply by LCCs on the likes of MAN-LIS we risk losing TAP with their network connectivity to Africa and South America, for the sake of a few cheap seats to the villa or a city break. Got to be careful.

[boredintheairport]

Indeed, with over-supply by LCCs on the likes of MAN-LIS we risk losing TAP with their network connectivity to Africa and South America, for the sake of a few cheap seats to the villa or a city break. Got to be careful.
But surely you're talking about different markets? TAP baulking and withdrawing MAN-GRU (given you said South America) because an LCC cut the price of MAN-LIS fares would be like KLM not offering MAN-AMS-PVG because Flybe offer MAN-AMS for €50.
If TAP really has a useful market to otherwise unserved destinations then they will continue to operate, otherwise they will not. As long as Ryanair aren't offering MAN-LIS-GRU I don't see the issue.

[UnderASouthernSky]

But surely you're talking about different markets? TAP baulking and withdrawing MAN-GRU (given you said South America) because an LCC cut the price of MAN-LIS fares would be like KLM not offering MAN-AMS-PVG because Flybe offer MAN-AMS for €50.
If TAP really has a useful market to otherwise unserved destinations then they will continue to operate, otherwise they will not. As long as Ryanair aren't offering MAN-LIS-GRU I don't see the issue.

The issue is that airlines often make more money from straight O&D traffic to/from their hub than connecting over the hub (for a given ticket). TP probably require MAN-LIS bookings to supplement anyone travelling MAN-LIS-XXX to make the MAN-LIS route work. Losing a section of the O&D market to LIS will make the MAN-LIS less likely to be profitable.

Let's not forget, however, that some airlines are able to stimulate/grow a market by adding a new destination, rather than purely taking a share of the existing traffic flying from, say, the North West to that destination by current means (indirect, using other UK airports etc). JUst because there is low existing demand, doesn't mean that it will always stay as such... but it may require a punt from the airline, using historic data from another similar route, to take the plunge in the first place.

[boredintheairport]

The issue is that airlines often make more money from straight O&D traffic to/from their hub than connecting over the hub (for a given ticket). TP probably require MAN-LIS bookings to supplement anyone travelling MAN-LIS-XXX to make the MAN-LIS route work. Losing a section of the O&D market to LIS will make the MAN-LIS less likely to be profitable.

Let's not forget, however, that some airlines are able to stimulate/grow a market by adding a new destination, rather than purely taking a share of the existing traffic flying from, say, the North West to that destination by current means (indirect, using other UK airports etc). JUst because there is low existing demand, doesn't mean that it will always stay as such... but it may require a punt from the airline, using historic data from another similar route, to take the plunge in the first place.

I can see your logic there. However, companies such as KLM operate out of a major tourist city and operate a major connections business. Normally their fares are priced to keep people off short haul returns out and back to AMS with the LCCs left to pick up the tourist traffic.

What I find more confusing is that TAP offer pretty rubbish outbound connections to Brazil and quite a few spots in West Africa with lengthy layovers in Lisbon.

[MANFOD]

As others have said, when a new carrier comes onto a route already served by 2 airlines, it's the extent to which it stimulates growth as opposed to re-distributing existing business, as well as maintaining yields, which are important.
Lisbon is interesting in that as far as I know easyjet are transferring the route from LPL where it did pretty well for numbers based on posts on the LPL thread. Whether those customers will be happy to fly that particular route from MAN or for convenience choose an alternative destination remains to be seen.

[ManchesterUK]

With Etihad operating from November a 787-9 in place of one of its 777s at Manchester (according to UK Aviation News - Apologies I’m not able to post the link), it seems like the airport will be seeing far fewer 777s in the near future. Is anyone aware of whether this change to 787-9 is permanent for Etihad at MAN?

Many thanks

[LAX_LHR]

Change is likely to be permanent. However seen that from S19 the EY15/16 will change back to B777 and EY21/22 goes B787 instead.

given the amount of cuts EY is making, and the fact Jet Airways is starting MAN this winter (don’t forget EY Carries a lot of connecting pax for Jet ex-MAN), I think a downgrade to B787 on one flight has meant MAN gets off incredibly lightly.

[110Cornets]

More Thomas Cook - One off cruise flights? Diversions?

Over the last two days, Anchorage, Fairbanks Alaska and Hartford Connecticut have popped in to the schedules for Thomas Cook. (They're no longer showing).

Anyone have any ideas....Hartford seems most likely to be a diversion? And ANC/FAI would be cruise related....possibly planning for S19?

Thanks all.

Edit - Hartford still showing:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/351x108/screen_shot_2018_08_15_at_4_36_58_pm_ddbf21751bc8508998c3c8c b684dfa0f8a0f4179.png

[LAX_LHR]

HFD could be a mis-file as that’s a municipal airport unlikely to ever see intl ops. If MT were to ever start that area it would be BDL and even then an A330 is too big for the route, even if just 2-3 weekly.

ANC/FAI could be cruise related, however, DE have served FRA-FAI for some time so maybe they have seen an increase in pax from the U.K. and could start a MAN flight?

thanks for the update though.

[FFMAN]

I think a downgrade to B787 on one flight has meant MAN gets off incredibly lightly.

In all respects (other than for aviation enthusiasts) the switch to a 789 from a 777 is an upgrade rather than a downgrade

[LAX_LHR]

I agree FFMAN but many commentators highlight the fact the B789 holds 10% less pax than the B777 and I often get accused of being ‘too positive’ etc so was going along that theme. Seems I can’t win either way really.

[roverman]

I agree FFMAN but many commentators highlight the fact the B789 holds 10% less pax than the B777 and I often get accused of being ‘too positive’ etc so was going along that theme. Seems I can’t win either way really.


Indeed, and I think MAN is served by the higher density B77W with a whopping 412 seats, certainly I have seen passenger loads in the high 300s. So switching to something with c.295 seats is a major reduction in capacity. Perhaps 'down-gauge' is the right word?

[GEB74]

In all respects (other than for aviation enthusiasts) the switch to a 789 from a 777 is an upgrade rather than a downgrade

I've had the misfortune of flying on their 777's in economy on this route rather a lot and would agree.....
If I remember rightly, EY tend to nearly always use the High Y version on the MAN route of which they have only 10 examples.
5 of these ten are the oldest 777's in their fleet and I believe the leases are up in the next year and the aircraft will be Lessor returned ASAP.
Bearing in mind some of the other requirements for the remaining 5 High Y aircraft such as multiple Bangkok's etc, it's no surprise and eventually I would assume MAN would go double 787-9 with a focus on slight yield improvement rather than sheer passenger numbers.
At peak times, flights MAN-AUH are £700+RT, but over the last year, I've had a couple of off peak flights in the £310-330 range. That's surely not sustainable??

[FFMAN]

Perhaps 'down-gauge' is the right word?

Aaargh (shudders) 'down gauge' is not a word. And even if it was, aircraft size is not measured with a gauge :}
Seriously though, I imagine that Etihad are well aware of how many of their pax are connecting onto BOM and the new Jet Airways service is bound to impact on that.
From my perspective, the 'upgrade' on the morning service to a better aircraft would make it more of a contender for my future business

[mufc4evr]

don't forget it is also a big downgrade in cargo revenue (an often overlooked side revenue). they will lose about 3xPMCs (up to 12ton) of space with 787 from the 777.

[Homo Simpson]

From a passenger perspective the 787 is better. Certainly in business where the 777/330 business hard product simply isn't that good anymore.

[roverman]

This afternoon's EY21 arrived with 412 pax and 17 tonnes of cargo. At least that one made a profit, one assumes!

[Betablockeruk]

I see that Aeroflot have returned to Dublin (daily from W18) with @Airlineroute describing it as a resumption (they served Dublin until May 04).

Anyone recall when they stop serving Manchester?

[Rutan16]

I see that Aeroflot have returned to Dublin (daily from W18) with @Airlineroute describing it as a resumption (they served Dublin until May 04).

Anyone recall when they stop serving Manchester?

Around 1997 from memory

[Betablockeruk]

Thomas Cook UK suspends Manchester – Boston in S19 (https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/280105/thomas-cook-uk-suspends-manchester-boston-in-s19/)

Credit www.routesonline.com (http://www.routesonline.com)

[Mr A Tis]

Dublin has spent 16M Euros on a dedicated transfer hub. Manchester - Boston is their 5th busiest transfer route.

Dublin Airport’s top five transatlantic connecting routes are as follows:

Chicago – Heathrow
Boston – Heathrow
Boston – Paris CDG
Amsterdam – New York JFK
Boston – Manchester

https://flyinginireland.com/2018/08/dublin-airport-opens-new-transfer-facility-and-new-route-to-moscow-coming-soon/

Having recently been through Dublin- what a good experience. Spacious. ample seating. 2 minutes through security. Even the Ryanair gates would rival Atlanta.

[FFMAN]

Not unexpected...it does seem as though VS and TCX may have come to an 'arrangement' over their competing on the thinner routes, if you look at recent announcements.
If BOS becomes a more long-term sustainable route at a higher frequency with just one carrier as a result, then so be it.

[Porky Speedpig]

Not unexpected...it does seem as though VS and TCX may have come to an 'arrangement' over their competing on the thinner routes, if you look at recent announcements.
If BOS becomes a more long-term sustainable route at a higher frequency with just one carrier as a result, then so be it.

Really? Someone would end up in jail if that were the case.

[Turtle controller]

I think this spells the end of Thomas Cook’s expansion of USA services at MAN. They are down to 4 proper scheduled routes plus LAS and MCO. They’ve been unable to make Miami and Boston work. Where else can they go and expect much success? San Diego and Washington perhaps but they’re not going to be runaway successes. Only JFK in winter and LAX on a reduced summer schedule. Pretty depressing considering the high hopes and their early statements of intent. Seems virgin is slightly backtracking with Atlanta reduced to A330 in peak summer.

[Betablockeruk]

Competing with 3 daily from Dublin, 5 or 6 daily from Heathrow and Norwegian to Providence and Hartford from various, was always going to be a tough ask. As with many questions about Manchester the answer will probably be ManTP, if the pre-clearance happens.

Until then a daily VS will do :ok:

[roverman]

At the risk of this sounding like spin, sometimes when there appears to be a setback you have to remember where you were just 2 or 3 years ago. For MAN, that was having no service to the US West Coast or to Boston, let alone Seattle. For Summer 2019 (still not fully finalized) it looks like we'll have 5 per week to Los Angeles (up from 3 per week this year), 3 per week to San Francisco (down from 5), 3 per week to Seattle (up from 2), 3 per week to Boston (down from 4) and an extra flight per week to JFK in peak Summer. That's the changes we know about. Overall I think it is roughly neutral, there's less choice on some routes and more on others. No destinations have been lost from the portfolio. So no need for gloom, just a little realism. Again, look back at where MAN was just 3 years ago.

The two main players to the USA from MAN have taken a look at the market and worked out independently what they can best do. It made no sense having both of them flying thin frequencies to Boston and San Francisco on the same days of the week, which is what we've had thus far. For 2019, MT will have San Francisco to themselves and VS, Boston. They go head to head only on JFK and LAX (of the big city hubs), and those destinations ought to be strong enough for this competition and capacity to be healthy. And sensibly they fly on complementary days to LAX, not on the same day! 2019 may be a consolidation year on the MAN-USA scene, but it re-groups and strengthens for the future as MAN-TP will, from 2020 onwards offer a much-improved connecting hub product with or without a pre-clearance facility..

[seahawks]

Condor had a diversion from Fairbanks a few days ago, ref post 2243, blocked toilet!

[chaps1954]

Glad to see you flushed that out
Oops

[Nomoresteerage]

Seems virgin is slightly backtracking with Atlanta reduced to A330 in peak summer.
This may be that the 747 can be used more profitably elsewhere as it is school holidays only plus a week at either side where it is down sized

Looking for a week trip in 6 weeks time and VS want £5.5K to go out either on the Sun/Mon and come back on the Thu/Fri MAN to ATL. Normally my work can get that for around £3k so the route looks popular now - unless there is something on specifically in Atlanta that week. I can get the lower fare if I have 4 hours in Atlanta on the Wednesday only! Appreciate 1 swallow does not make a Summer, but there does appear to be the demand there.

[FFMAN]

Seems virgin is slightly backtracking with Atlanta reduced to A330 in peak summer.
Your glass must be permanently half empty.
ATL is run by an A330 most of the time. They increase to a 747 for a temporary period then revert to what it was previously.
Only the most negative of observers would portray this as a 'reduction'.

On the pricing point by Nomoresteerage, you will find that it is common for high pricing on trips that 'appear' to be a business trip ie out on a Sunday back on a Friday. That also explains the lower pricing for the Wednesday as it would be useless as a business trip (or any other trip for that matter!)

[Nomoresteerage]

On the pricing point by Nomoresteerage, you will find that it is common for high pricing on trips that 'appear' to be a business trip ie out on a Sunday back on a Friday. That also explains the lower pricing for the Wednesday as it would be useless as a business trip (or any other trip for that matter!)

I understand the pricing - I was there in early out August - out Sunday, back Thursday and it was £2,900 give or take booked 2 weeks in advance - so to want almost double that shows they are doing something right and demand is there. Routing through JFK or MCO it does come down a little - but only to £4.5K, so this far out, it's safe to safe the plane is quite full - and the seat maps appear to confirm that.

Back to the original point, switching to an A330 from a 747 increases UC seats available so not all doom and gloom. I also assume some of the A332s will be coming back online post their re-fit to include PE too so some juggling is to be expected,

[Turtle controller]

It’s also possible the ex Atlanta 747 will be used on a MAN route. Either one previously using an A330 or perhaps it is the return of the extra peak Summer aircraft MAN used to get?

Is that optimistic enough? ����:O

[LAX_LHR]

Well it’s official, one of MAN’s longest standing TATL Routes is no more, as AA won’t resume ORD next summer.

shame to loose such a long standing route, but given the managed decline of this route, this was inevitable.

[MKY661]

Shame to lose this route indeed. Hopefully this doesn't mean the end of AA at MAN and they will keep the PHL Service going in the long run.

[LAX_LHR]

Well PHL remains an A330 so would hope that it can be sustained.

in other news, Primera add a 5th weekly Malaga when they start, and Iberia Express will add a 4th weekly Madrid flight next summer.

[A350Saltire]

UA might look at an ORD route for MAN?

[Curious Pax]

Well it’s official, one of MAN’s longest standing TATL Routes is no more, as AA won’t resume ORD next summer.

shame to loose such a long standing route, but given the managed decline of this route, this was inevitable.

The longest running I think? I’m fairly sure no one else around now was operating Transatlantic in 1986 - charters to Orlando hadn’t started at that point.

[TURIN]

Well it’s official, one of MAN’s longest standing TATL Routes is no more, as AA won’t resume ORD next summer.

shame to loose such a long standing route, but given the managed decline of this route, this was inevitable.
Shame, as up until this last week, the on time performance has been rock solid. Maybe BA will pick up the route along with the JFK.

(Ducks under duvet hides from incoming verbal assault!)

[LAX_LHR]

JFK (Idlewild) was one of our first routes, however, AA took the crown for longest continual service with same airline to same destination. Obviously had seasonal breaks but was ‘continuous’ service.

i don’t hold out much hope of BA starting. Perhaps Level if the brand ever gets shipped to the UK but for now the only hopes could be UA or MT.

[Scottie Dog]

Courtesy of Airlineroute:Thomas Cook expands Manchester – Orlando flights in S19 (https://www.routesonline.com/track/9psuyrRcHSaD/JAIdcOrjOXBD/)Posted 21 August 2018 06:30

Thomas Cook Airlines UK in summer 2019 season plans to increase Manchester – Orlando route, as the airline operates up to 13 weekly flights, instead of 9, during peak season.

22JUN19 – 20JUL19 Increase from 9 to 11 weekly (MT2804/2805 Day 6, MT2752/2753 Day 3)
21JUL19 – 19AUG19 Increase from 9 to 13 weekly (MT2642/2643 Day 7, MT2604/2605 Day 1)
20AUG19 – 07SEP19 Increase from 9 to 11 weekly
eff 08SEP19 Increase from 9 to 10 weekly

Following schedule effective 21JUL19 – 19AUG19.

MT2752 MAN1015 – 1435MCO 332 26
MT2940 MAN1015 – 1435MCO 333 7
MT2970 MAN1015 – 1435MCO 333 1
MT2604 MAN1100 – 1520MCO 332 1
MT2804 MAN1100 – 1520MCO 332 4
MT2604 MAN1130 – 1550MCO 332 3
MT2752 MAN1200 – 1620MCO 332 4
MT2604 MAN1200 – 1620MCO 332 5
MT2610 MAN1200 – 1620MCO 332 7
MT2768 MAN1220 – 1640MCO 333 3
MT2642 MAN1255 – 1715MCO 332 7
MT2804 MAN1255 – 1715MCO 332 6


MT2753 MCO1635 – 0555+1MAN 332 26
MT2941 MCO1635 – 0555+1MAN 333 7
MT2971 MCO1635 – 0555+1MAN 333 1
MT2605 MCO1720 – 0640+1MAN 332 1
MT2805 MCO1720 – 0645+1MAN 332 4
MT2753 MCO1820 – 0740+1MAN 332 4
MT2605 MCO1820 – 0740+1MAN 332 5
MT2611 MCO1820 – 0740+1MAN 332 7
MT2605 MCO1820 – 0740+1MAN 332 3
MT2769 MCO1840 – 0805+1MAN 333 3
MT2643 MCO1915 – 0835+1MAN 332 7
MT2805 MCO1915 – 0840+1MAN 332 6

[Betablockeruk]

American Airlines Expands European Footprint and Modifies Asia Service (http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2018/American-Airlines-Expands-European-Footprint-and-Modifies-Asia-Service/default.aspx)

FORT WORTH, Texas – American Airlines is expanding its European network next summer with nine new routes designed to meet customer demand:

CLT: Daily year-round service to Munich Airport (MUC)
DFW: Daily summer seasonal service to Dublin Airport (DUB) and to MUC
ORD: Daily summer seasonal service to Athens International Airport (ATH) in Greece
PHL: Daily summer seasonal service to Edinburgh Airport (EDI) in Scotland; new summer seasonal service to Berlin-Tegel Airport (TXL), Bologna Guglielmo Marconi Airport (BLQ) in Italy and Dubrovnik Airport (DBV) in Croatia
PHX: Daily seasonal service to London Heathrow Airport (LHR)

Wow! I know spin doesn't usually include 'bad news' but the article does mention the loss of ORD-PVG but absolutely nothing about ORD-MAN?

In conclusion, AA think that the above routes are more profitable than the long standing exclusive ORD-MAN? Something has gone seriously wrong.

[Scottie Dog]

The Manchester loss is reported in an attachment to the main article. You have to go digging.

[Betablockeruk]

The Manchester loss is reported in an attachment to the main article. You have to go digging.

Ah! There it is. American's own "Where's Manchester?" puzzle book.

[PDXCWL45]

American Airlines Expands European Footprint and Modifies Asia Service (http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2018/American-Airlines-Expands-European-Footprint-and-Modifies-Asia-Service/default.aspx)



Wow! I know spin doesn't usually include 'bad news' but the article does mention the loss of ORD-PVG but absolutely nothing about ORD-MAN?

In conclusion, AA think that the above routes are more profitable than the long standing exclusive ORD-MAN? Something has gone seriously wrong.
It looks like they are replacing it with Athens.

[boredintheairport]

In conclusion, AA think that the above routes are more profitable than the long standing exclusive ORD-MAN? Something has gone seriously wrong.
That's exactly what they think, and it's true because otherwise they wouldn't do it. What's the controversy?

[Curious Pax]

In conclusion, AA think that the above routes are more profitable than the long standing exclusive ORD-MAN? Something has gone seriously wrong.

In what sense has it seriously gone wrong? I assume you’re not suggesting that American have got their sums wrong and are axing a goldmine route? In the same way as a celeb couple’s ‘trial separation’ rarely leads to a long term reconciliation, so an established year round route going seasonal will have an inevitable conclusion.

Given that their routes from MAN have always had a significant proportion of seats taken by travellers connecting through ORD/PHL etc, then it was certain that the expansion of point to point routes from MAN would have an impact. Although we would hope that the TCX and Virgin expansions will generate new passengers, it’s surely no surprise that traffic will also be taken from existing routes, especially if cutting out a change of aircraft en route becomes an option.

In many ways this is probably good news for the PHL service, as it will consolidate American’s connecting pax onto that service, increasing load factors and hopefully (from the point of view of their beancounters) increase yield.

[Scottie Dog]

I have just been checking my records for the Chicago route - which will have possibly included a short period when BMI were also on the route - and have the following figures for passengers carried in June of each year: I've also done a similar list for Philadelphia in the second column.

MAN/ORD.............................MAN/PHL
2005 - 25,585.......................12,525
2006 - 24,634.......................12,340
2007 - 24,537.......................14,449
2008 - 22,682.......................14,520
2009 - 12,152.......................15,111
2010 - 9,715.........................14,987
2011 - 9,917.........................14,653
2012 - 10,544.......................15,101
2013 - 11,156.......................14,386
2014 - 11,148.......................11,964
2015 - 10,537.......................10,576
2016 - 9,485..........................9,769
2017 - 7,891.........................10,991
2018 - 8,702.........................10,654

It is so obvious that the route has run it's course. What a shame.

[gonetech]

Might be coincidental the pax figures dropping off in relation to on time performance of American Airlines at MAN in the last couple of years. I know i for one has avoided MAN-ORD (taxying for 2 hours+) and to some extent MAN-PHL (ball ache to transfer) in the last couple of years because of this reason and opting for LHR or ATL instead to get to my destination.
Presumably many others have come to the same conclusion also.

[roverman]

I have just been checking my records for the Chicago route - which will have possibly included a short period when BMI were also on the route - and have the following figures for passengers carried in June of each year: I've also done a similar list for Philadelphia in the second column.

MAN/ORD.............................MAN/PHL
2005 - 25,585.......................12,525
2006 - 24,634.......................12,340
2007 - 24,537.......................14,449
2008 - 22,682.......................14,520
2009 - 12,152.......................15,111
2010 - 9,715.........................14,987
2011 - 9,917.........................14,653
2012 - 10,544.......................15,101
2013 - 11,156.......................14,386
2014 - 11,148.......................11,964
2015 - 10,537.......................10,576
2016 - 9,485..........................9,769
2017 - 7,891.........................10,991
2018 - 8,702.........................10,654

It is so obvious that the route has run it's course. What a shame.

It sucks that now they have finally got the right aircraft on the route and are offering reasonable on time performance, and traffic figures are slightly up on last year, it gets canned. Things have changed a good deal though, both at AA and at MAN since the route launched in 1986. Leaves a big hole in MAN's US coverage though, both as a destination in its own right and as a US-entry and onward hub. Could be a case where Manchester loses a city and gains another United?

[mickyman]

Isnt it funny that the plane that was specifically designed for thin routes is the plane that kills this route - and they say Americans dont understand irony !

[Caravaggio]

outbound through T3 on Saturday lunchtime. Drop off quick although the £3 charge still rankles. Rapid through security. Smiling friendly staff. Perhaps the message is getting through from all the complaints in various media sources.
Return tonight. Passport control quick although only 3 of the 5 e-gates functioning. Baggage 55 minute wait from touchdown to first bag. Noted that the left hand exit door from the baggage area was still broken as it was 2 weeks ago. So either not repaired at all or poor repair.
shambles at car park pick up. All in all 70 minutes from wheels down to getting off airport.

Starting to hate Manchester as a customer experience. Comparison with Faro both inbound and outbound doesn’t show MAN in a good light.

[eggc]

Wheels down, taxi to gate, disembark, walk to and negotiate border control, walk to baggage reclaim, watit for and collect bags, walk to car park, load car and drive off site...in 70 mins. Is in me or are people just jumping on the bandwagon, 70 mins isn't bad to do all listed above ! I've been to Faro many times and still been onsite an hour after landing.

[FFMAN]

70 mins isn't bad .

Wow - really? You either work for the airport or don't have to travel much.
If that comment is symptomatic of an underlying attitude at MAN then no wonder the MAN haters are growing in number.
Through careful management of my business activities (and the fact it's summer as well tbf) I have been able to avoid the place for 4 weeks now and I feel better for it. Dreading my next trip next week out of T1 - the worst of all terminals.

[Mr A Tis]

The T3 air-land side exit gate has been u\s for weeks(if not longer) . Had the same issues at T1 too- long term unsercviceability (maybe still u/s?) causing congestion.
Security has improved in August from the diabolical levels of June. Although I still managed to rack up 25 minutes to get through T3 this week. The inconsistency being the problem, you don't really know if it's going to be 5 minutes or 120 minutes or somewhere in-between. Was stuck in T3 earlier this month with a 3.5 hour delay, hardly anywhere to sit and the chance of using any food outlet almost nil.
This week in T3 and our 30 or so pax told to go to gate 1 for immediate boarding only to find the narrow corridor blocked by a disembarking shuttle for 15 minutes, once clear our small group is faced walking the opposite direction to hundreds if not thousands of delayed people marching the opposite way from the security area. They really ought to have a separate facility for domestic flights, it does grind a bit when you look at the Flybe proudly saying quicker than road or rail on the engines -when it should add (except from Manchester).
The queue for the T1 ground floor lifts yesterday was out the foyer towards Greggs, the sooner T1 & T3 get bulldozed the better.
Meanwhile over in T2 on Saturday,my colleague (business class) was directed by Qatar check in to the extra security bag drop (desk 26- Man staffed) - this was manned by one person and the queue for that was one hour. This was followed by 30 minutes to negotiate fast track security- so another 90 minutes from check in to airside- resulting in no airside shopping or use of a lounge.
But of course we all love MAN and I'm just a whinging old fart, although I do remember when I loved this airport.

[MANFOD]

Excuse my ignorance but what are the reasons for an extra security bag-drop? Is it the size, shape or weight of the case, or particular contents that a passenger has declared? Can't say I've noticed long queues in T2 but I certainly have in T1 manned by just 1 person.

[Mr A Tis]

No idea, nothing unusual in size, shape, weight of his bag- all 100% normal. The same bag & contents recently having been checked in at T1, T3, Tallinn, Helsinki, & Dublin with no issues. However, Qatar at MAN for some reason were directing a lot of people this way (my suspicion was actually a problem with the check in desk baggage belt at the Qatar desks).
Normally the extra bag drop desk is for bulky shape luggage- but this was not the case on Saturday.

[Caravaggio]

I’m sure the new TP when it is up and running will have the potential to be an improvement for the customers and airlines who use it: but unless the management pulls its finger out the customer experience is likely to continue to be poor. The current failures within the airport are symptomatic of a complete disregard for their customers.
Perhaps now the TP extension is in process the airport management should address how they should implement a step change improvement in customer experience.

[Scottie Dog]

[QUOTE=Mr A Tis;10231331] However, Qatar at MAN for some reason were directing a lot of people this way (my suspicion was actually a problem with the check in desk baggage belt at the Qatar desks).
/QUOTE]

There is major work taking place in the T2 baggage hall which could be affecting the QR belts. Still no excuse for not having sufficient alternative facilities.

[Robin757]

Terminal 1. Just returned from Zurich yesterday evening on Swiss. Landed at 18.05. Bags were on the conveyor as soon as we got there and made the 1847 Trans Pennine train home. Yes, it is a messy airport, especially as we had to go down some steps to go back up some more a short way later to get to the Border controls!
However, please excuse my ignorance but I cannot find out what improvements are currently under construction and what are the plans beyond that are. If someone could please explain what exactly is going on, I would be grateful. Most airports seem to shout loudly about what they are doing but Manchester seems to keep this all secret. Thanks in advance.

[Scottie Dog]

Robin757

Do a search for Manchester Airport Transformation Programme (MANTP) for more information. The first part of the Terminal 2 expansion project opens in April 2019 when Pier 1 is commissioned. The Terminal 2 extension will not however open until 2020.

As far as your "up and down" experience is concerned this is out of the airport's control. Originally both arriving and departing passengers could mingle within the pier system. Legislation now requires that they be segregated, hence the convoluted routing - the Terminal was nitvdesigned for that style of operation.

[Ringwayman]

July saw 94% of passengers clearing security under 15 minutes with 70% having no delay. Average time roughly 4 and a half minutes. The issue at Manchester is not the airport or personnel but rather the users. So if you are persistently delayed, maybe you should look at yourself to see what you are doing wrong when the overwhelming majority of passengers appear to have no problems.

[Mr A Tis]

So laughable Ringway man - which department are you working in? I guess the number of tea & biscuit chats by a number of airline bosses, the CAA & The Dept of Transport with MAN managers have had an effect after all.
I notice you are not mentioning June in your comments.

[Robin757]

Thank you to those who answered my query about developments at Manchester. Scottie Dog - you might be amused to know that when we arrived at Zurich two weeks before we passed a departure gate into the departure lounge, mingling with departure passengers before disappearing into a sideways passage to Swiss border controls and baggage reclaim.
Whatever the problems at Manchester my wife infinitely prefers it to Heathrow or Gatwick and for us on the Trans Pennine rail route, it is normally very easy to get to and from the airport. The basic fact is that where ever you go in the world now there are just more people!

[MANFOD]

Mr A Tis, I don't think we can assume that the improvement in July was solely due to pressure from inside the industry although I expect it was a factor. For example, do we know if the planned increase in season security staff was only planned for the peak summer period or did it occur earlier? Staff rosters had caused some unrest - was that resolved and resulted in greater efficiency? Had some equipment been unserviceable and came back into use with more lanes open?

And while I realise some contributors believe that MAN doesn't care a fig about customers' experience, is it not conceivable that management did listen and take notice of valid criticisms and bad publicity in the media?

That's not to say previous problems were excusable, but at least it's good to see an improvement. Let's hope it is maintained.

[TURIN]

So if you are persistently delayed, maybe you should look at yourself to see what you are doing wrong when the overwhelming majority of passengers appear to have no problems.]

Unbelievable arrogance!
I know people who are seasoned travellers, know the rules, behave accordingly, but continue to be treated shabily by MAN. Security is the biggest problem. Not enough staff on, rude and unsympathetic.

Get your head out of you're arse. If you really are involved and in a position to do something about it, then get to it, spend some time fixing the problem instead of moaning at the customers on internet forums.

[Flightrider]

I agree, that is one of the most extraordinary posts I’ve read on here. If it is in any way indicative of MAG management views, and I hope it is not, then it goes a long way towards laying bare the root cause of the problems - attitude.

Recent transit through T3 last week was less bad than previous but still poor at security and airside areas heavily congested. Much work still to do. I’d have marked it as poor, one up from terrible on my preceding visits.

[Turtle controller]

Reading this forum it appears that if there is arrogance anywhere it’s from the frequent users (pax and staff) that seem to think a red carpet should be rolled out before them, rather than having to mix with the commoners. Even more arrogance is then shown by thinking anybody reading an airport forum wants to listen to their constant carping, which is not borne out by the stats (Luton and Stansted are worse. Heathrow in the news for weeks of 4hr+ delays recently) . Then the final, supreme arrogance in assuming anybody recounting a positive experience is either an airport spokesman in disguise or is just benefitting from all the interminable whining that the regular suspects have deposited ( like a steaming dog turd) in this forum.

There is is a massive project ongoing to fix the issues, which surely means there is no arrogance? Except some on here think it’s arrogant to think that spending vast sums of money will fix a problem. Can’t win it seems.