Manchester-2

[LAX_LHR]

There are now 4 tower cranes on the T2 site, looks quite spectacular really. There are also 2 large mobile cranes building a new multi storey car park north east of T3.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Great to see the vast scale of this. I often think certain opportunities may have been missed (eg if the terminal has been made smaller when it would cost relatively little to have extra size for future proofing) but only time will tell - certainly I am not best placed to decide this!

For now, the new T2 is likely to be far better than anything there currently, and I hope it causes existing and new airline customers to increase and add MAN services to take advantage of the new and improved facilities.

[egcntristar]

Is there anywhere online with up to date photos of the build?

[EZYMAN]

Flybe have announced that there leaving Menzies from April time! I over heard that a few other airlines are set to follow, I am lead to understnad it’s after Menzies had the same person managing both Operations and Passenger Services that the whole operation just collapsed.

Airline Services now on the block! Who else with follow flybe I reckon

[OltonPete]

CH Aviation reporting Bangladesh Biman are to receive four 788's and Manchester will start later in the year.

Is this a credible report?

No doubt there is a market for such a route.

[LAX_LHR]

I don’t think even Biman know what they are doing half the time. No doubt MAN will be a USA transit route again.

[Plane.Silly]

Least if it is a transit route, will be a new route one way and additional capacity the other. Much like the Singapore switch from MUC to MAN, i personally believe these are win win,

Getting 2 routes for the price of 1, while also bring a new airline. Just depends what times they're looking at

[Betablockeruk]

OltonPete

They never actually finished. Just running extremely late, as normal :}

It's a shame that the operation was so shambolic.

[chaps1954]

Most stunning colour scheme on 773

[LAX_LHR]

Ryanair increasing Shannon to 6 weekly. Some really huge growth from them this summer!

[Mr Mac]

Planesilly
The SQ change came about from them dropping Moscow on the Singapore Houston v Moscow route. We benefited from the Russian economy slow down and I guess talking to fellow passengers on the Man - Houston section, a drop in oil exploration by US companies in Russia, possibly due to sanctions. What ever it took it has made my life very easy on a recent project, and I would recommend it as a route into SW USA or even Central America.

[Betablockeruk]

LAX_LHR

and 3 weekly reintroduction from LPL.

Must be feeding all those TATL flights!

[viscount702]

FR
There are still a few more gaps that could be filled with based aircraft if they wanted to.

[LFC22]

EZYMAN

Which other airlines are set to follow? They've recently lost American and Aurigny so not great for them. Although heard Stobart may take over Flybe and get that contract back from AS.

[EZYMAN]

I’ve heard that Stobart are to buy out Airline Services, they are on the market at the minute, as they were struggling after Monarch went bust and we’re very close to ceasing them selves.

I am also led to believe that Easyjet are looking for a new contract holder at MAN. Possible Stobart after they took over the STN contract

[LFC22]

It's all moving pretty fast at the moment. Airline Servies are actually hiring currently, funnily enough I even have an interview lined up. Having 2nd thoughts now

[EZYMAN]

Just heard there’s a few more contracts up at Menzies this summer? Could we see British Airways follow a lot off oneword and head to Swissport or possibly Dnata?

[The96er]

I think Menzies have signed an IAG contract with Menzies which covers MAN/GLA/EDI/ABZ and DUB. I stand to be corrected though. The relationship between BA and Swissport is still somewhat sour after the Gatwick fiasco a few years ago.

[EZYMAN]

Yeah I did hear this, but as a whole Menzies are falling to pieces I’ve heard of the same story at MAN, LGW, EDI and even IOM now struggling. I think they’ve gone on a path of which they will struggle to cope with, the only place I hear good things about Menzies is LHR.

[LAX_LHR]

Seems to be a new Ryanair route to Catania:

FR9046 MAN 1145 CTA 1500
FR9047 CTA 1525 MAN 1840
Mondays

FR9046 MAN 1700 CTA 2015
FR9047 CTA 2040 MAN 2355
Friday’s

[daz211]

I wonder if Ryanair will add STN-CTA seeing Air Malta starting CTA from SEN.

[Habana2118]

Menzies is very strong and by far the biggest handler at LHR but yes everywhere else they seem to be losing contracts right left and centre...the ground handling market in UK is becoming very fragmented with smaller companies entering (Stobart, Azzurra, Premier Handling etc) still think Dnata is the one to watch... a big global player with very deep pockets.

[viscount702]

LAX-LHR

Are we sure on the CTA flights as there don't appear to be any gaps in the timetable on Monday and Friday to fit those in.

[LAX_LHR]

It’s in GDS and on Catania airport website so can only go off the information provided. Maybe an existing flight will be shuffled to accommodate it as there are still gaps in the based aircraft schedules.

[viscount702]

I agree that there are gaps for based aircraft but not to fit those flights unless as you say other flights are moved around. Mind you Monday and Friday are very tight

[LAX_LHR]

Hopefully find out in time but as said only reporting what I can see.

[The96er]

Menzies is very strong and by far the biggest handler at LHR but yes everywhere else they seem to be losing contracts right left and centre...the ground handling market in UK is becoming very fragmented with smaller companies entering (Stobart, Azzurra, Premier Handling etc) still think Dnata is the one to watch... a big global player with very deep pockets.

Several times MAN has gone from multiple Handling agents to only a few with near monopolies and back again. Neither seem to work well. When there are multiple handling agents, each one has to hire/buy equipment/staff/rent office space etc... and with out the economies of scale (Airlines will only pay crumbs these days), they struggle to make any return on investment. When there are near monopolies (Swissport/Menzies), the handling agents struggle to cope with the volume of work and just end up giving a very poor service. High staff turnover/Lack of training/poor equipment/low pay/ lack of suitable crew rest areas... I could go on are the norm these days outside of LHR.

Dnata at MAN have so far offered little. They even got an improvement notice from one of their customers once, I think they were called Emirates !

[roverman]

The unregulated ground handling market at MAN has been a dismal failure. Can anyone honestly say that an open door policy (enforced by EU Directive) has led to a better customer experience than if it were limited to say, 3 providers? That number, to me would seem about the right level at a 25-30 mppa airport to offer competition but a viable volume of work for each provider. It has become ridiculously fragmented now at MAN, with 7 or 8 players (I have lost count). Market economics does not seem to be able to work it out for the better. The race to the bottom is over and no-one has won, certainly not the passenger waiting forever for their bags in reclaim.

[AndrewH52]

Really? EU Directive? Which one would that be?

[horatio_b]

Probably referring to EU Directive 96/67/EC of 15 October 1996 "on access to the groundhandling market at Community airports"

Groundhandling at European airports | Kennedys (http://www.kennedyslaw.com/article/groundhandlingateuropeanairports/)

[roverman]

Yes, that one. Good intentions, and all that.

[j636]

You could argue the EU side but given MAN's size and uniqueness in Europe is equally a part of the cause. You will only see 3-4 at most major airports in Europe either because based carriers have such a major market share (40-50%) or self handle. MAN have 4-5 big but medium sized carriers who are probably spread across most handles there while the rest don't really matter.

[AndrewH52]

horatio_b

Thanks. And if anyone has bothered to read it, the Directive (not regulation, btw) makes provision for ground handlers to be “authorised” and that at airports with over 5m pax pa there are a minimum of two providers to choose from.

It does not create an open house.

[Suzeman]

But you have not taken into account the UK Regulations that flowed from this. Here's what the CAA say

The Airports (Groundhandling) Regulations 1997 (GHRs)
The CAA has powers under the GHRs which implemented the European directive on access to the ground handling market at Community airports. The directive is intended to liberalise handling at EU airports.

The Airports (Groundhandling) Regulations 1997 (consolidated)
Airports with over 2 million passengers a year cannot limit the number of third party suppliers of ground handling services without permission from the CAA. The same applies at airports with more than 1 million passengers a year in relation to self-handling airport users.

Limitations may be granted, for example, on the grounds of safety, security, capacity or available space constraints at the airport concerned.

Airports can apply to the CAA for the number of third-party suppliers or self-handling airport users to be limited.

See here for the exemption guidelines
https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Airports/Economic-regulation/Competition-policy/Airports-Groundhandling-Regulations-1997/

This was a very time consuming and expensive process that the airport looked at very carefully before deciding not to proceed to ask for exemption. In addition, at the time, the Airport were fully economically regulated by the same people (CAA Economic Regulation Group or some such) and the airlines were not in favour of any limitation; perhaps their view was coloured by the fact that the Airport had until not long before done most of the manual handling at least.

The airport was worried that it would become a free for all and so it has proved. The race to the bottom had begun.

[Skipness One Echo]

UK regulations are often tighter and more pointless than anything the EU brings in, our people take them too far. (See also Security at MAN T3)
For example, to help deaf and blind people, trains are meant to have announcements and dynamic signage that assists them, the law rightly says their needs must be taken "into account". So on some local stopping trains, the automated announcements callout 20+ stations on the route, then proceed to the "now approaching station" call only to repeat. Heathrow Connect is the worst offender in London with 30+ PA's between Paddington and Heathrow. I got the BHX-London stopping service once and lost count. This is not an EU regulation as such, it's a narrow UK view on a sensible rule, and I am no fan of the EU tbh. If it was illegal not to do this, then it would happen on the Tube and there would a be a riot (!)

The days when Britannia had a UK handling agent in Servisair and some contingency in manpower are long gone. easyJet and the locos, have been joined by BA in being ruthless in cost cutting in ground handling. There's just no way to make money over the medium term as you have to cut to the bone each year just to get through another season. This is the reason you get the same employees often TUPEd over again and again, as nothing changes, because it can't and people get demoralised.

[viscount702]

FR
This new route to CTA is showing on the CTA website. However it has the same flight numbers as the new PMO flights from MAN. They are on the same days and the timings are one to two hours apart.

Unless some flights are substantially changed on Monday and Friday I can't see how this new CTA flight can be fitted in to the timetable as there just isn't room.

Could it be that FR was going to do CTA but changed it to PMO instead

[FFMAN]

Couldn't agree more. Well done to Jet2 for breaking with recent convention.
Insourcing is the new outsourcing don't you know :ok:

The only people that make money out of outsourcing are lawyers.

[Mr A Tis]

Could not agree more FF. If anyone needs a lesson in outsourcing and the race to the cheapest is best, just look at the current Fiasco with KFC & DHL .

As far as MAN goes, of the low cost operators, without doubt, Jet2 wins hands down. In terms of check in, baggage claim & everything else -simply the best. Same applies in PMI.- Who handles Jet 2 at these places ? Jet2 of course. Their fate is in their own hands. Well done.

[UnderASouthernSky]

The irony being that DHL have recently started handling EasyJet at LGW and are apparently impressing everyone with how it's working so far.

[roverman]

Have I missed anyone from the MAN-handlers? (In no particular order....)

Swissport
Dnata
Menzies
Aviator
Jet 2
Premier
Airline Services

Signature (G.A. only)

[LAX_LHR]

Is fedex self handling?

[roverman]

I think they may be, being a bit specialised and integrated.

What about ASIG? I think they do some handling or parts thereof. Even without them it is a long list for any airport.

[LAX_LHR]

I’m sure fedex are self handling. DHL in their sporadic appearances are handled by Swissport.

I think ASIG at MAN were absorbed into Menzies, but again I’m happy to be corrected if not the case.

[easyflyer83]

ASIG was indeed taken over by Menzies. At least in Manchester anyway.

[The96er]

ASIG was taken over by Menzies everywhere with ground handling having now been fully integrated, although the ASIG fuelers are still branded as ASIG for some reason.

Is fedex self handling?

Fedex do self handling apart from the Pushback which is done by Menzies.

[SWBKCB]

So don't the Corporation do anything now? :ok:

(Lights blue touch paper, stands well back.... )

[Betablockeruk]

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/276925/interview-a-golden-opportunity-for-jet-airways/

Asked by Routes News if he would consider introducing flights to other UK airports outside the London area - currently Jet Airways operates from Heathrow to both Mumbai and Delhi - Dube admits it could be a possibility if there is enough demand.

“We have 1,000 seats per day to the UK – that’s not a lot for the size of market,” he says. “There are plenty of other options. People live in other cities in the UK outside London – there are plenty of Indians who reside in those places, as well as wonderful universities in other parts of the UK.

“Manchester and Birmingham are two obvious choices and we will continue to look at those two cities. When demand is robust enough we will launch flights.” Credit https://www.routesonline.com

When is demand robust enough?

[Logohu]

When is demand robust enough ?
I guess when it's robust enough to endure 9 hours on board your average Indian carrier ??

Seriously Mr Dube just needs to observe the check in queues for the ME4 on any day of the week at MAN if he's in doubt.

[Betablockeruk]

I guess when it's robust enough to endure 9 hours on board your average Indian carrier ??

Ouch :ouch:

Wonder if the statement will panic SpiceJet, IndiGo or even Air India into action.

There seems momentum from many sides now to get such a route up & running. Just a matter of who.....

That VS Delhi rumour?

[LAX_LHR]

ELAL flights now showing in the Tel Aviv Airport timetables:

LY5195 TLV 1800 MAN 2130 Tu/Th/Su

LY5196 MAN 2235 TLV 0545+1 Tu/Su
LY5196 MAN 0005 TLV 0720+1 Th

Starts July 1st.

[Espada III]

I'm sure that's the third set of times that have been promulgated... Not yet available for booking on the EL AL website, but hopefully they will appear sometime.

Interesting that it's a night flight back to Israel which will put off some people, but it's an excellent Israel to UK flight time.

[LAX_LHR]

But the other times so far have just been slot requests, this is the first time these flights have made it on any sort of publicly accessible page.

[Espada III]

I see. Progress then....

The Hebrew equivalent of Manyana (sp?) is Savlanut (patience....).

[Abbots12]

EL AL slots now cancelled for this Summer.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

This feels very cack handed!

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Ethiopian

ET's country manager for the UK seems to be looking beyond LHR for extra capacity. Realistically this is likely to mean MAN, LGW, EDI but I don't know what they are looking to tap into. ADD (which can only mean ET from MAN) was part of a "story" in the MEN a year or so ago. Link and key extract below.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... expansion/

Q: Will Heathrow be the main focus or, given its slot constraints, is the airline planning to grow its network elsewhere?

A: Additional frequency from LHR, introduction of second UK airport or a mixture of both are options that we are currently working hard to introduce as we need to bring more capacity to the market to achieve our long-term growth ambitions in the UK market.

[inOban]

Have they ordered 321LRs? They would have the range, I think.

[LAX_LHR]

EL AL slots now cancelled for this Summer.

They aren’t canx, pushed back to 1st July. Due to the pushback, they appeared in the canx section of the latest ACL report.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Have they ordered 321LRs? They would have the range, I think.

I'd expect this to be more of a B788 route than an A321LR - albeit not daily. There is nothing to substantiate this, just my preconception.

[LAX_LHR]

Ryanair have started to load winter 2018. Despite claims from the ever abrasive Ian F on another forum, there are a few changes.

Belfast goes 2 daily
Porto, Treviso and Agadir continue as year round.

Almeria, Rhodes, Ponta Delgada, Cagliari, Palermo and Reus are summer only, but hardly surprising given they are predominantly summer routes.

There does seem to be a couple of increases on other routes, but don’t have the historics to make a full comparison.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Quite - in his rush to look at the position of CTA (and giddily report it is not there) he has obviously not bothered to look elsewhere.

In any case, at this stage pretty much everything will be subject to change.

[LAX_LHR]

Ukraine international route pushed back to 2020 now...

https://www.kyivpost.com/business/uia-launch-new-flights-within-five-years.html

[Flightrider]

ET have applied for two daily transit slots at LGW with a 787-8. Looks like that is the object of their desire for expansion with no similar signs at MAN.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Assuming that is accurate, agreed. The interview above did not specify "Non-London"...

[southside bobby]

Re the Ukraine International deferment to 2020 above...

Ryanair have just signed an agreement (again) to commence ops from Boryspil & Lviv in the Autumn.

Destinations will be announced in Feb or March...So perhaps perhaps.

[LAX_LHR]

Well fingers crossed Manchester features once again. It did the first time round so assume it could do this time around.

[nigel osborne]

ELAL flights now showing in the Tel Aviv Airport timetables:

LY5195 TLV 1800 MAN 2130 Tu/Th/Su

LY5196 MAN 2235 TLV 0545+1 Tu/Su
LY5196 MAN 0005 TLV 0720+1 Th

Starts July 1st.

Hmm rubbish times ?

[LAX_LHR]

Rubbish times for enthusiasts? LY have a couple of flights from Europe around the same times so must work for them

[All names taken]

I'd expect this to be more of a B788 route than an A321LR - albeit not daily. There is nothing to substantiate this, just my preconception.

IMO, the prospects of ET launching a ADD-MAN service are limited to the possibility of a transit route as with Dublin and now possibly with LGW.

Frankly as a reasonably frequent user of ET flights, from my personal experience they would want to focus on getting their load factors up first. The last time I did ET701 from LHR I was one of five people in the huge Business cabin of an A350. Down the back was far from full. Great from a pax perspective but awful for yields.

I've read plenty of nonsense on here over the years from armchair experts professing to know how this connection or that level of demand would justify a ADD-MAN route. Ethiopian Airlines are pretty good really but I can tell you that Bole Int Airport in Addis is far from being a great place to connect. Their geo-political position also puts them up against the ME4 for UK- points east and south.

If you look at the 'smaller' ET destinations in Europe apart from the above mentioned - they feed to and from *A hubs. MAN is not a *A hub.

Anecdotally of course,, but I was chatting to the Cabin Service Director on another ET flight saying how much I would prefer a direct Manchester flight. Her response? 'Where is that exactly?'
Sorry for the reality check.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

I'm not saying Manchester is some kind of global Mecca, but the fact she apparently doesn't know where Manchester is probably explains why she is a cabin services director.

[zfw]

Latest Acl ElAl canx all slots no more held by Ly. And the Fr route is PMO Palermo not CTA.

[LAX_LHR]

Interestingly LOT have been added back into the slots from Sept.

I’m not sure what’s going on with LY, and I still feel a little more time is needed to clarify the picture.

Granted, they have handed slots back, but, just this week the flights were added to the Tel Aviv website timetable.
Then there was an article about LY starting SFO and the CEO stated MAN was indeed starting this year.

Perhaps a winter start is in order?

[Vokes55]

but the fact she apparently doesn't know where Manchester is probably explains why she is a cabin services director.

What's that supposed to mean exactly? That all cabin crew are only cabin crew because they're stupid?

Actually very few people around the world would've heard of Manchester, the place is completely irrelevant on a global scale. And the majority of those that have heard of it would only be due to football.

[SWBKCB]

Don't be mean, he's from Leeds! :E

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Touché! :)

[LAX_LHR]

Actually very few people around the world would've heard of Manchester, the place is completely irrelevant on a global scale. And the majority of those that have heard of it would only be due to football.

Unfortunately due to a certain event last May, I’m finding that quite a lot of people know where Manchester is. I’m not suggesting for one second it’s a good thing, but on my world travels, many do indeed know where Manchester is.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

What's that supposed to mean exactly? That all cabin crew are only cabin crew because they're stupid?

Actually very few people around the world would've heard of Manchester, the place is completely irrelevant on a global scale. And the majority of those that have heard of it would only be due to football.

Manchester, MAN, and the region it serves is obviously not New York, London or Paris. Equally it is not a backwater, and there are plenty of reasons why a person may have heard of a region, one of which you have identified.

Quite frankly, I'd expect anyone with any say in a major airline's management teams, including its route planning and commercial teams, to have heard of Manchester. I would not hold cabin crew to the same standard - and it would be unreasonable to do so because it isn't their job.

[roverman]

The Return of the Israeli flag carrier is beginning to rival the story of El Al-amo in its twists and turns. Hopefully we'll see the flag waving in the distance at some stage.

Good to hear that the LOT slots (unlike their namesake's wife) have not looked backwards and turned into a pillar of salt, and yet may add a little seasoning to our late summer visitors.

[MANFOD]

Wonderful roverman! I was merely going to comment that I was relieved the LOT slots were not LO(s)T. However, your biblical reference and analogy may escape some but far surpasses my effort.

[MANFOD]

easyjet:

I believe there are one or two on here who like to plot schedules for carriers like easyjet, Ryanair and Jet2 to see how many based a/c they indicate and what gaps there may be.

Having had a go at easy jet for the early departure wave in peak summer from their web site, I was disappointed at what I came up with. It could well be that I've missed some but the most based a/c I found were 12 on certain days and 11 on others, rather than the 13 I thought had been confirmed (irrespective of any further expansion).

Just wondered if anyone else had looked at the schedules and if so what you found.

[Scottie Dog]

MANFOD

Agreed, his answer deserves a score of 110 out of 100 (if that is feasible)!

[MANFOD]

That's disappointing LAX_LHR. Does that imply 12 based as last summer then?
Any chance for winter do you think?

[LAX_LHR]

No Easyjet expansion this summer. Pushed back to 2019 as this will help T1 from becoming overcrowded. More Jet2 will move to T2 next summer and this will enable Easyjet growth.

[MKY661]

Bit of a Shame that GIB will be staying 3pw this summer then. Route has also been downgraded to an A319 this Summer as well.

Understandable reasoning regarding the delayed expansion though.

[DomyDom]

LAX_LHR

The delay in expansion is understandable given the passenger experience (overcrowding)in T1 during the summer months. Hopefully we will see it next year (Brexit permitting☺).

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

There is an awful lot going on at once and I feel EZY might just be feeling the effects of a capacity crunch.

This not just the terminals, taxiways, stands, hotels and car parking - the improvements to the local and strategic road network are obviously causing disruption.

[DP.]

Dobbo_Dobbo

Quite. The situation in the vicinity of the airport at present is absolutely shambolic.

[MAN2SIN2BKK2FRA]

What's the latest progress on the Terminal 2 rebuild: I've not seen any pics anywhere for about 3 months. Thanks

[Curious Pax]

The transformation website was updated yesterday. Looks like the last bolt on the first phase of superstructure went in (think that means pier 1 and the extension out from the existing T2 to meet it). On schedule for that part to,open in April next year.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

For sure.

I think some ligitimate criticism can be levelled at MAG, who could have perhaps have started the TP a little sooner. The counter to that is the traffic growth over the past 2/3 years has been pretty much unprecedented.

However, the surrounding road layout is woefully underprepared. Something had to be done, and you wonder if this could have been undertaken a few years ago (i.e. before the TP).

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

[chaps1954]

Gaining planning permission from councils can be very slow thing and as we all know the
southern bypass is years behind where it should be.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

I'd have said BHX was a bigger market to India.

Few quotes which answer this question - taken from anna.aero (see link below) and probably explains the supposed motivation for VS/Jet to look into MAN-BOM/DEL:

> “Manchester is Europe’s largest unserved market to/from Mumbai,” states Robert Smith, Head of Aviation Development at Manchester Airport. “In fact the airport is second only to Heathrow in terms of total O&D traffic for UK to India.”

> “In total O&D traffic, Manchester-Mumbai ranks third behind Heathrow and Paris CDG, and way ahead of several routes that have direct services, e.g. Frankfurt, Munich, Brussels, Amsterdam, Zurich and Istanbul,” concludes Smith.

> “Excluding Sydney [which cannot be reached in one sector], Mumbai is the second largest unserved market from Manchester [Bangkok being the biggest],” confirms Smith. In 2016, the market witnessed 74,000 indirect passengers, plus 73,000 surface leakage to Mumbai from Manchester’s two-hour catchment area (IATA Airport IS and CAA Survey 2016).

http://www.anna.aero/2017/04/12/manchester-mumbai-is-skyscanner-unserved-route-of-the-week/

[Suzeman]

What's the latest progress on the Terminal 2 rebuild: I've not seen any pics anywhere for about 3 months. Thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaJRg3yP5jo

Turn the sound off so that you don't have to listen to the rubbish "music" :{

[one11]

No Easyjet expansion this summer. .
Perhaps they could use the time to sort out their ground handling by Menzies.
Inbound from AMS late Sunday was slightly delayed then another 10 minute wait for steps. On entry to the terminal confronted by a locked door - fortunately sign language through the glass to agents handling an Air Arabia at an adjacent desk enabled some communication from the assembled PAX - otherwise we would probably still be waiting. Even so it took 20 minutes for Menzies to respond and unlock.
It had also taken an hour to get through security on the outbound flight but that's another story and not down to EZY.

[Skipness One Echo]

I noticed that even Ryanair self handle their larger operations.
DUB, MAD and PMI seem to be in house, Ryanair tugs and some ground handling whereas STN, their biggest base is Swissport. I wonder if this is a UK ailment?

[LFC22]

Unfortunately Menzies are a mess at the moment. So many flights arriving on stand with no-one to meet it, equipment either lying around anywhere or unusable, I could go on. One wonders how much longer EZY will tolerate this

[The96er]

You pay peanuts....

[MAN2SIN2BKK2FRA]

Thanks for the updates

[Airfrance7]

And this is not the first time that this has happened. De-Icing equipment at MAN is totally inadequate.

[Mr Mac]

Council Van
Not the first time that has happened with EK. I have a colleague heading to India who was less than impressed as connection missed obviously - just got e-mail to confirm his delayed arrival which will result in a costly delay to our own works there of 24-48 hrs. You would think having 3nr 380 per day not to mention the 747 still operating out of there, that they could afford at least 1nr large de-icing truck.

[Scottie Dog]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this once again down to the handling agents, or is it a pooled set of equipment?

Maybe it's time for the monkeys to be paid to invest in better equipment.

[LAX_LHR]

Spend money at Manchester?! Now you really are living in dreamworld!

[MANFOD]

De-icing equipment

Same thing happened to us when we flew to Dubai in January on the lunchtime EK. Temperature was a few degrees above freezing but our expected 10 minute delay due late inbound turned into 1 hour 10 minutes. No explanation given at first until through the a/c window I saw 1 guy and his truck painstakingly working his way round the a/c. Fortunately we had plenty of time for our connection and 30 minutes was made up in flight. A couple waiting anxiously to disembark at Dubai were hoping to catch what would have been a tight connection anyway to Bali. With the temperature unlikely to get above freezing, I wonder how today's EK flights will fare.

Just checked and EK22 sch. departure 08.45 is showing final boarding. Does de-icing only start when all pax and freight on board and then is subject to wait for de-icing equipment?

[Scottie Dog]

Council Van

From your experience are you able to confirm whether the de-icing is the airport authority's responsibility or that of the handling agent?

[Airfrance7]

Out of interest what De-Icing equipment is used for the EK A380 at BHX, LGW and LHR. And do they have similar delays?

[CCGE29]

Airline Services and Swissport provide de-icing at Manchester. Airline Services does EK. They actually have at least three new de-icers this year, I assume the problem is lack of staff rather than lack of trucks.

[CCGE29]

So far this morning MAN has taken 3 div's


QR017 DOH-DUB 788 A7BDB
CO682 LCA-DUB 319 5BDCU
LH976 FRA-DUB 320N DAINH

[MANFOD]

I believe SAS 535 came here as well.

[Suzeman]

Just checked and EK22 sch. departure 08.45 is showing final boarding. Does de-icing only start when all pax and freight on board and then is subject to wait for de-icing equipment?

Off blocks 1031 and dep c1045 according to FR24. At the same time the next A380 was on finals, so just time to fill that shiny new deicing rig up. ;) And now a lot of snow coming down as another of the showers has escaped over the Pennines.

Passengers now generally expect low fares and airlines screw the agents (and airports) down in terms of what they are prepared to pay. As a result resources are cut to the bone and are on the edge even in "normal" conditions, so when things go wrong, as it does quite often, it all goes tits-up very quickly. In addition there is little motivation for many staff to go that "extra mile" as their working conditions are often at minimum rates and unsociable hours. And it's not only in aviation it happens - it is also a feature of many other industries nowadays as is becoming increasingly obvious.

The airlines have their own agreements with the Handling Agents (which the Airport is told is nothing to do with them) which presumably have some minimum service standards written in. Don't know if the Handling Agents have to pay the airlines if they don't meet them and I suppose you can argue that they can always change agents if there is consistent bad performance ...:} But isn't that often a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything, but always gets the rubbish thrown at them by the travelling public as "I had a c*ap experience at Manchester Airport".

My guess is that other airports are also having problems with de-icing this am. DUB seems to be particularly badly affected although it has been snowing on and off there since the early hours and I guess snow clearance of manoeuvring area is also a major issue.

Meanwhile, many MAN departures are getting away quite reasonably despite the snow and increasing wind-speeds. And in shocking news, MAN has taken a few diversions from DUB today :eek:

Spend money at Manchester?! Now you really are living in dreamworld!

Presumably a tongue in cheek comment LAX considering the current capital expenditure. And I wonder what the users (ie airlines) view would be of the capital spend required for any remote de-icing area along with all the required environmental requirements, never mind where on the site you would put it....? I know what their views were 20 years ago when it was discussed then and it should come as no surprise that it was never followed through.

[pholling]

...

The airlines have their own agreements with the Handling Agents (which the Airport is told is nothing to do with them) which presumably have some minimum service standards written in. Don't know if the Handling Agents have to pay the airlines if they don't meet them and I suppose you can argue that they can always change agents if there is consistent bad performance ...:} But isn't that often a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything, but always gets the rubbish thrown at them by the travelling public as "I had a c*ap experience at Manchester Airport".

My guess is that other airports are also having problems with de-icing this am. DUB seems to be particularly badly affected although it has been snowing on and off there since the early hours and I guess snow clearance of manoeuvring area is also a major issue.

....

Except if MAG wanted they could centralise the de-icing under the airport's responsibility. This on of the examples were it is acknowledged that good operational cases can be made for removing the competition. That being said, they would still have to staff the facilities to meet the demand, which is difficult when you have very irregular snowfall from one year to the next. We get roughly the same amount each year, with some totals being more than others, but timing can vary by a few months. Not a problem in a place where they regularly get snowfall all winter.

Q: Since the de-icing is run by fewer companies do they contract with them directly or via the handling agents? Depending on the number of layers between the user and the provider they can end up almost unaccountable for failures.

[Mr A Tis]

Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything,

Not true. The Airport licence the handling agents to operate. They can, and do, monitor their performance.
Last year, one of the agents were having to meet weekly with MA to discuss their performance levels, where licence withdrawal was a possibility.

MA can act if it wants to.

[wools]

It is not those GHA's such as Swissport/Airline Services that do provide de-icing but those that do not, Menzies, Dnata etc., or self handling carriers such as Jet2. It is down to cost!!










MAG could always just insist as part of Licence that they have to provide for their customers.

[Airfrance7]

I bet the Emirate's crew were less amused than we were as we taxied in last night. It was quite funny to see one truck pointlessly attempting to de/ant-ice the A380 in falling snow no doubt taking longer to clear the whole aircraft than the actual hold over time!

I see they finally got away about 1am.

Hopefully PAX were not stuck on the Aircraft whilst De-Icing....!

[Airfrance7]

No pointing de/anti icing if you have no pax on board in falling snow. The hold over time clock is ticking as soon as they start the process, I think our ops manual came up with a figure of about 45 minis in last nights conditions.

Assuming PAX/Crew boarded Aircraft for a 20:35 departure then they were onboard for a hell of a long time last night.

[750XL]

It's SOP not to de-ice until all equipment is off the aircraft, including steps/airbridge.

[Adola69]

This De-icing saga does not just raise its head during Snow conditions. Any days where temp fall close to freezing will give rise for the requirement to de-ice airframes, as well as runway / taxiway surfaces.

So during a normal winter period, there will be many times where this becomes necessary, so the point that "this doesn't happen very often" is quite incorrect. Yes snow is not all that frequent but Ice and low temps are quite the norm for a fair few prolonged periods.

I'm sure other airfields go through the same scenario, but with Man being in 3rd position in the UK with regard to movement numbers, surely something better could be brought in, especially seeing we are in the FROZEN NORTH or so those darn sarf would have us believe?

Also, having all that airframe de-icing fluid sloshing over the stands, can lead to "Slippery when Wet" conditions for ground personnel, whereas surface de-icing fluid does not. Plus, on the GREEN front, a dedicated area can give rise to the contained drainage of the chemical and then its re-use, after filtration has taken place, thus saving money in the long term with better overall performance!

Much to mull over me thinks for the future? There again much mulling has taken place previously with little action, so may the Farse be with you !:uhoh:

[Travel Agent]

Thomas Cook to re-introduce Jamaica for Summer 2019 with weekly Monday flight to Montego Bay. On sale tomorrow

[HH6702]

Is TCX just putting long haul routes on sale tomorrow or is European routes on sale also

[Suzeman]

Except if MAG wanted they could centralise the de-icing under the airport's responsibility. This on of the examples were it is acknowledged that good operational cases can be made for removing the competition.

But would the airlines agree to that and the associated costs? That would have to be sorted before the Airport applied to the CAA for an exemption to limit that aspect of handling, otherwise there will be hearings etc and it will take an age when everyone probably has higher priorities?

Don't know what the relations between agents, airlines and airport is like nowadays, but I do wonder. Has the once much vaunted concept of ACDM (Airport Collaborative Decision Making) been introduced at MAN yet?

Anyway, most flights seem to have been getting away with small delays today except when there was a SNOCLO for about an hour in mid afternoon after a very heavy snow shower, so credit where credit is due.

Not true. The Airport licence the handling agents to operate. They can, and do, monitor their performance.
Last year, one of the agents were having to meet weekly with MA to discuss their performance levels, where licence withdrawal was a possibility.

MA can act if it wants to.

Thanks Mr A Tis - well something seems to have changed for the better then. However, even after all this monitoring and hats on interviews with no biscuits, we still hear of all sorts of shortcomings, so it makes me wonder about the performance standards that are acceptable nowadays.

[Dct_Mopas]

Over at LPL the de-icing is nothing to do with the handling agents. It’s all centrally controlled and works really well, obviously it’s a lot smaller scale than MAN and it doesn't help when it takes 4 hours to clear the runway (like this week).

At most major European airports the de-ice process is seamless. You taxi out and near the runway holding point normally 2 de-ice rigs are waiting to de-ice whilst you keep engines running. Maximises hold over times with the aircraft then ready for an immediate departure. Wouldn’t be too much effort by MAN to sort something similar, even Madrid has this process and it’s rarely used. Just such a waste of time/resource when the de-ice rigs have to drive around the airport from aircraft to aircraft, with the rig operator mounting/dismounting the boom box.

[Curious Pax]

At most major European airports the de-ice process is seamless. You taxi out and near the runway holding point normally 2 de-ice rigs are waiting to de-ice whilst you keep engines running. Maximises hold over times with you then ready for an immediate departure. Wouldn’t be too much effort by MAN to sort something similar, even Madrid has this process and it’s rarely used. Just such a waste of time/resource when the de-ice rigs have to drive around the airport from aircraft to aircraft, with the rig operator mountain/dismounting the boom box.

In principle a reasonable idea, however once you start to look at Manchester’s geography it suddenly gets a lot harder. Stands 80/231, aka taxiway Papa is the obvious place, but no good once you start thinking of a load of Ryanair’s and Flybe’s trying to get round there from T3 in the morning departure rush. Nowhere south of 23R/05L is any good when 23L isn’t the departure runway (traffic would be going back and forth across 23R/05L to de-ice). Anywhere else would cause chaos as there would be nowhere to go round the de-icing aircraft - you’d quickly get a backlog of departures as at best your frequency of takeoffs could be no better than how quickly each aircraft can be de-iced. Others will know better than I, but I’d be surprised if an aircraft can be de-iced in less than 5 minutes even with 2 rigs.

One thing that could help will be once the new T2 is fully operational and T1 is pulled down. That could give some centrally located space to use.

[LAX_LHR]

Don’t we have this same discussions about winter ops year after year?

It’s like we discuss the same thing again and again but expect a different outcome.

[Suzeman]

Don’t we have this same discussions about winter ops year after year?

It’s like we discuss the same thing again and again but expect a different outcome.

Indeed we do LAX.

And particularly in view of the extreme conditions that are being encountered at present, I think the Airport has done very well. Aircraft are getting away,albeit with some delay. But just look at LHR last night and you will see that many departures were delayed by 1 hour plus - in some cases several hours - and no doubt some of this was down to de-icing.

In addition the manoeuvring area has been kept mostly operational throughout apart from short closures. So well done to all those who have been involved.

[FFHKG]

Can confirm that there were delays of over one hour de-icing at LHR yesterday afternoon, and it was not solely the aircraft that were not coping with the cold.

Departure from gate 143 at Manchester delayed the 12.25 to LHR by almost one hour as the airbridge failed in the cold and boarding had to be front and rear steps.... then arriving at LHR, we were kept on the aircraft for over 30 minutes due to airbridge failure there at gate 7, apparently caused by snow on the sensors. Eventually disembarked by rear door with the first officer and cabin crew donning high vis jackets to steward the passengers into the terminal.

My subsequent 3.30pm departure to MAD was then delayed until 4.45pm as the aircraft was delayed elsewhere in Europe, and as the substitute aircraft had been on stand all day, it needed de-icing above and below the wings which took almost one hour with an eventual departure from the gate just after 6.20pm

[Scottie Dog]

Manchester Statistics - January 2018 (Part 1)

Destinations that are either new (no passengers since my records started in January 2005), or have not been served for a number of years - if the latter then the month and year of the last service is shown.

Lyon (Bron) appears for the first time, with 77 passengers

One domestic statistic are currently missing from the CAA report for January.

Belfast City and Inverness are yet to provide figures

Total passengers for this route in January 2017 were 24,450

Moving monthly and annual figures - based on CAA statistics/MAG statistics

Monthly passengers - 1,664,623-0.05
Annual Total - 1,664,623
Moving Annual Total - 27,790,176 + 7.45

Monthly Movements - 13,538 -2.88%
Annual Movements - 13,538
Moving Annual Movements - 203,229 + 4.62%

Manchester Statistics -January 2018 (Part 2)

Top 25 destinations - by passenger numbers

DUBAI................................................ 88,650
AMSTERDAM..................................... 81,402
DUBLIN.............................................. 78,561
TENERIFE (SURREINA SOFIA)............. 56,290
HEATHROW....................................... 54,567
PARIS (CHARLES DE GAULLE)............. 47,618
ABU DHABI......................................... 39,108
FRANKFURT....................................... 37,481
ALICANTE........................................... 34,758
GENEVA............................................. 32,084
ARRICIFE............................................ 30,431
DOHA................................................. 27,765
KEFLAVIK............................................ 26,167
BERLIN (SCHONEFELD)....................... 24,636
MUNICH............................................. 24,496
COPENHAGEN.................................... 24,140
LAS PALMAS....................................... 22,996
MALAGA............................................ 22,406
BRIDGETOWN.................................... 21,025
BELFAST INTERNATIONAL.................. 19,981
ISTANBUL............................................ 19,463
FUERTAVENTURA............................... 18,648
BRUSSELS........................................... 18,152
ISLAMABAD........................................ 17,686
BARCELONA....................................... 17,524

CAA statistics for January are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - January 2018 (Part 3)

Top 25 destinations with highest percentage increase.

Destination......................................Total Pax....Schedule Pax....Charter Pax....Percentage change
COLOGNE.......................................... 11,308........... 11,308.................... 0.................. 230.74
AGADIR................................................ 7,239............. 7,239................... 0................... 123.15
ENONTEKIO............................................. 185.................... 0............... 185.................. 88.776
ST LUCIA.............................................. 2,193............. 2,193.................... 0.................. 87.116
TORONTO............................................ 3,793............. 3,793.................... 0.................. 65.128
ANTALYA.............................................. 4,373............. 4,113............... 260.................. 61,783
BANJUL................................................. 5,569............. 5,596................... 0................. 52,367
CHAMBERY.......................................... 6,875................ 971............. 5,904.................. 45.229
GOA.................................................... 13,793........... 10,390............. 3,403................. 36.578
FRANKFURT........................................ 37,481........... 37,481.................... 0................. 36.528
NEW YORK (JFK)................................. 13,875........... 13,875.................... 0................. 36.096
ISTANBUL........................................... 19,463........... 19,463.................... 0................. 35.953
HOUSTON............................................. 4,541............ 4,541.................... 0.................. 33.402
HONG KONG...................................... 15,599........... 15,599.................... 0.................. 31.526
PISA...................................................... 2,482............. 2,482.................... 0................. 29.88
HELSINKI............................................. 10,327.......... 10,327..................... 0................. 27.636
PRAGUE.............................................. 15,795.......... 15,795..................... 0................. 26.209
NANTES................................................... 272................ 272.................... 0.................. 23.077
CARCASSONNE...................................... 3,471........... 3,471..................... 0.................. 23,041
SALZBURG............................................. 7,372........... 4,461............... 2,911................. 22.276
BILLUND................................................ 2,456........... 2,456..................... 0.................. 20.807
CATANIA............................................... 2,524............ 2,524..................... 0.................. 20.248
MALTA................................................ 12,346........... 10,678.............. 1,668................. 19.887
HURGHADA.......................................... 9,904............. 9,904.................... 0.................. 19.885
BRUSSELS............................................ 18,152........... 18,152................... 0.................. 19.752

CAA statistics for January are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - January 2018 (Part 4)

Figures for the European and long haul destinations that I consider to be the main points for our connecting traffic.

Foreign_airport……..Total_Pax 2017……..Total Pax 2018……% change
VIENNA………………….. 5,099……….…………….. 5,268……………….. +3.3144
BRUSSELS……………… 15,158……………………. 18,152……………….. +19.752
BEIJING………………….. 8,051………………….….. 5,414.………………. -32.75
PRAGUE………………… 12,515……………………. 15,795…….…………. +26.209
COPENHAGEN………. 23,421……………………. 24,140……………….. +3.0699
HELSINKI………………... 8,091…………….…….. 10,327………………… +27.636
PARIS (CDG)………….. 48,024…………………… 47,618……………..... -0.845
DUSSELDORF………… 17,324………..…………. 17,016……..………… -1.778
FRANKFURT MAIN… 27,453……………………. 37,481….…………… +36.528
MUNICH……………….. 25,433..…………………. 24,496………………. -3.684
HONG KONG……….… 11,860….………………… 15,599.……….……. +31.526
KEFLAVIK……………….. 22,430……………….….. 26,167….………….. +16.661
DUBLIN………………….. 81,019………………….. 78,561………..…….. +3.034
MILAN (MALPENSA).. 10,179……………………. 8,752……………….. -14.02
ROME (FIUMICINO)….. 5,021..…………………. 5,024……………….. +0.0597
AMSTERDAM………….. 80,813………….…….. 81,402.…………….... +0.7288
ISLAMABAD……………. 20,326..……………..… 17,686….……………. -12.99
LISBON…………………… 15,495………………….. 13,741………..…….. -11.32
DOHA…………………….. 30,760…………………… 27,765…………..….. -9.737
JEDDAH…………………... 8,538…………………….. 9,142………………. +7.0743
SINGAPORE……………… 6,702…………………….. 7,187……………….. +7.2366
MADRID…………………. 13,383………………….. 11,126…..…………... -16.86
STOCKHOLM (ARN)… 10,373………………….. 11,703..………………. -11.36
GENEVA…………………. 31,580………………….. 32,084….………....... +1.5959
ZURICH………………….. 12,346………………….. 11,561.. ………………. -6.358
ABU DHABI…………….. 36,574……………….…. 39,108…..…………... +6.9284
DUBAI…………………….. 90,003.…………………. 88,650………………... -1.503
ATLANTA………………… 10,801…….……………... 5,808…………………. -46.23
CHICAGO…..…………….. 2,407…………………….. 2,467..………………. +2.4927
HOUSTON………………… 3,404 ……………………. 4,451…………………. +33.402
NEW YORK (JFK)……… 10,195…………………… 13,875…………..……. +36.096
NEW YORK (NEWARK) 9,461……………………. 9,178..………………. -2.991
PHILADELPHIA………… 10,604…………………… 10,102……..…………. -4.734
HEATHROW……………. 55,455…………………… 54,567……….………….-1.601

CAA statistics for January are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - January 2018 (Part 5)

Comparison of top 25 destinations - January 2008 versus January 2018

Foreign airport...........................January-08...........January-18
HEATHROW....................................... 74,611..................... 54,567
TENERIFE (SURREINA SOFIA)............ 62,908...................... 56,290
DUBLIN.............................................. 54,789..................... 78,561
DUBAI................................................ 46,746..................... 88,650
AMSTERDAM..................................... 38,372..................... 81,402
PARIS (CHARLES DE GAULLE)............ 34,867...................... 47,618
ARRECIFE........................................... 33,408...................... 30,431
ALICANTE.......................................... 33,348...................... 34,758
MALAGA............................................ 31,473...................... 22,408
GATWICK........................................... 30,654...................... 99
FRANKFURT....................................... 28,454...................... 37,481
SHARM EL SHEIK................................ 25,565...................... 0
ORLANDO.......................................... 24,035...................... 17,288
LAS PALMAS...................................... 19,532....................... 22,996
EDINBURGH....................................... 18,937...................... 8,891
BELFAST CITY..................................... 18,912...................... TBA
GENEVA............................................. 18,575...................... 32,084
CHICAGO (O'HARE)............................ 17,983...................... 2,467
ISLAMABAD........................................ 17,967..................... 17,686
NEW YORK (NEWARK)....................... 17,032...................... 9,178
PAPHOS............................................. 16,828....................... 11,226
FUERTEVENTURA.............................. 16,518....................... 18,648
SINGAPORE........................................ 16,216...................... 7,187
GOA.................................................... 15,727..................... 13,793
BRIDGETOWN.................................... 15,429...................... 21,025

CAA statistics for January are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - January 2018 (Part 6)

Major changes to Domestic traffic

Edinburgh - 8,891 +17.528%
Exeter- 9,761 +18.043%
Glasgow - 3,777 +16.863%
Heathrow- 54,567 -1.601%
Isle of Man - 12,547 +16.945%
Newquay - 4,557 +17.358%
Norwich - 1,660 -17.25%
Southampton - 16,747 +18.773%

CAA statistics for January are provisional

[spannersatcx]

Remote deicing has been asked for by airlines, the answer has always been NO. To do with no suitable location with drainage.
When the snow threat level reaches a set level, the airport takes control of ALL handling agents that supply deicing and they put everybody in a queue based on your CTOT.
Why they don't vacate a/c off of contact stands that are awaiting deicing, causing a delay to the next a/c waiting for that stand is beyond me.
It seems there is no thought or common sense involved when the airport (allegedly) control the deicing of aircraft.
For instance today the CX216 STD 1130, left at 1300 and was still waiting to be deiced, it waited that long the snow had melted! It also waited for a TUI to be deiced before towing back onto stand, for an hour.

[The96er]

the airport takes control of ALL handling agents that supply deicing and they put everybody in a queue based on your CTOT.

The airport have proved themselves to be no better than the handling agents at managing the process, and why the airport believes that they are more capable than the people who's job de-icing actualy is eludes me. Although, it has been noted on several occasions that certain airline(s) (Those operating the Airbus double deck variety) do tend to get preferential treatment when the airport assumes control of de-icing .

[Mr Mac]

The96er
I have a colleague currently belatedly in India who would beg to differ at your comment, after the issues earlier in the week. I am with the "Double Deckers" as you say again on Sunday, so will let you know if we get preferential treatment if weather remains the same, and assuming driver can get here !


Kind regards
Mr Mac - in the cooler !

[LAX_LHR]

The new Thomas Cook flights to Montego Bay times:

MT2872 MAN 1055 MBJ 1505
MT2873 MBJ 1705 MAN 0810+1

Monday’s from 6th May 2019.

[LAX_LHR]

Manchester has 3 London City diverts.

TXL-LCY, FRA-LCY and ORY-LCY.

EDI-LCY is likely to be joining these 3.

[MANFOD]

Manchester has 3 London City diverts.

TXL-LCY, FRA-LCY and ORY-LCY.

EDI-LCY is likely to be joining these 3.

Thanks for the inf. which had eluded me. Actually, looking at LCY and MAN arrivals it would appear the FRA got in at LCY. Not sure about the EDI. STN took a couple of diversions and LHR 1.

[LAX_LHR]

I was under the impression all 3 came to MAN.

FRA-LCY is recorded as landing at MAN 13:09, but I didn’t catch the reg (I think I saw it was G-LCYS?)

LCYY was on the TXL and LCYM on the ORY.

[MANFOD]

Yes, someone else has said 3 did divert to MAN, so my apologies. Finding earlier flight arrivals on the new MAN web site page doesn't seem so straightforward but the old style page showed 2. However, that wasn't always accurate.

[LAX_LHR]

MAN now taken an RAF C17 (BZZ) and Flybe Dash 8 (BHX) diverts.

[LAX_LHR]

And another LCY divert in the form of IBZ-LCY G-LCYR.

Been a while since we have had this many LCY diverts.

[LAX_LHR]

Another handful of diverts.

One each from Ryanair, Easyjet, Lufthansa and Jet2 and 2 from flybe. All BHX diverts.

[LAX_LHR]

And divert number 16/17 today is EK37 the BHX A380.

[Suzeman]

To continue the diversion theme, BHX's UAE 380 looks like it is coming to MAN too.

[LAX_LHR]

And more diverts.

Germania from BHX, Cityflyer from LCY and an Easyjet from SEN.

[LAX_LHR]

And one more will be Thomas Cook operating TFS-BHX.

Can’t be much more room left at MAN now so I’d be surprised if the squeezed any more in. The recently diverted Germania is being parked in the engine test Bay.

[MANFOD]

And a couple of the diverts - EK37 and LS1202 did go-arounds. Wind shear I believe, at least for the Jet2. I've lost count of the CFE that came here; is it 4 or 5?

[LAX_LHR]

I have 5 CFE. FRA/TXL/ORY/IBZ and now AGP.

Hats off to the teams today, over 20 diverts handled, good going.

[LAX_LHR]

There is another divert, this time MT BJL-BHX.

Strangely quiet on here considering we’ve had 20+ diverts, usually can’t move on this thread for people critiquing the airport when diverts are refused........

[Betablockeruk]

I just confused that I have the count at 20 and you're pushing 25?

Anyway, have we got a good cop, bad cop situ in ops? Sometimes the doors are firmly shut and now and again we'll take everything.

Next candidate is a Jet2 TFS-BHX that is following the MAN route.

[LAX_LHR]

Diverts noted today, and bear in mind I’ve probably missed some

2x Jet2
1x Ryanair
2x Easyjet
5x Cityflyer
6x Flybe
1x Lufthansa
1x RAF
1x Germania
2x Thomas Cook
1x Emirates

That seems 22 and I’m convinced I’m missing one or two also.

[LAX_LHR]

TUI B757 operating TFS-BHX now diverting in making at least 23 diverts.

[Betablockeruk]

Seems to be our BEE numbers. I've got 8AK(BHD), 1EY(DUS), 1GT(DUS) and 54CD(LYS).

That Jet2 from TFS is hanging around west of EMA

[LAX_LHR]

There were another 2 flybe but I can’t remember the numbers, they blend into the scenery and are pretty non descriptive so didn’t note them down.

Also it’s the TUI diverting in not the Jet2.

[Ringwayman]

Strangely quiet on here considering we’ve had 20+ diverts, usually can’t move on this thread for people critiquing the airport when diverts are refused........

Well at least 1 person appears on social media appears to be disappointed with what's come in! It appears we now have the wrong kind of diversion.

[MANFOD]

Well at least 1 person appears on social media appears to be disappointed with what's come in! It appears we now have the wrong kind of diversion.

Good grief! When was the last time we took 20 diversions in a day?
Some folk are never satisfied.

I hope all the flights were handled reasonably and well done to MAN and staff for a positive response.

[LAX_LHR]

2 more for the list.

Another TUI B757 operating SID-BHX and a Ryanair B737 operating AGP-BHX.

[LAX_LHR]

The Loganair flight to Norwich has diverted back to MAN.

[LBIA]

You MAN lot getting giddy over diverts..
Never though it would turn into a spotters forum..

[MANFOD]

The TUI (TOM 573) was on our boards but is on finals for LPL

[LAX_LHR]

You MAN lot getting giddy over diverts..
Never though it would turn into a spotters forum..

It’s not like you haven’t been documenting the majority of them over on the *eherm* other forum is it now. Pot kettle black me thinks.

[azz767]

I have to say considering the negativity when the ‘no div notam’ is issued, MAN has done exceptionally well the last couple of days and regardless of spotters wanting ‘good diversions’ it has been handled in a professional and efficient manner.

[Betablockeruk]

No diversions NOTAM in place 2231 last night until 1200. Presumably when the night shift ops guy walked in and said "WHAT THE ?????"

[seahawks]

Night shift ops start at 1900, no stands, airport full, P an Q both used for parking.

[LAX_LHR]

Indeed well done to all, the NO DIV notam was a good idea, if the airport is full, it’s full. Nowt you can do about it.

Also worth noting a HiFly A345 positioned in last night to work a TUI flight, that was another stand taken. Then you consider MAN has a number of stands U/S due to the construction, and a taxiway OOA for rebuilding works, I see no reason to grumble about the past few days, they did a bloody good job!

[MANFOD]

Good grief! When was the last time we took 20 diversions in a day?


Senior moment again. Wasn't it only 3 months ago we took a similar number one morning early December?

[Betablockeruk]

Also worth noting a HiFly A345 positioned in last night to work a TUI flight, that was another stand taken. Then you consider MAN has a number of stands U/S due to the construction, and a taxiway OOA for rebuilding works, I see no reason to grumble about the past few days, they did a bloody good job!

With all the reasons not to accept, I'm actually amazed what MAN did yesterday.

Massive respect!

The NOTAM was perfectly the correct thing to do and forced others to accept ie the 0300 BGI-BHX Thomson went to LGW.

[LAX_LHR]

Currently 2 of the 4 easyjet NEO based at MAN. UZHA and UZHC.

[Seljuk22]

Is there any update regarding the (rumored) EZY expansion in summer 2018? How many aircraft will be based? Up to 17 or 14 or 12?

[Turtle controller]

If by next summer you mean 2018 then there seems to be no growth. Next Summer 2019 EZY growth is impossible to anticipate. Slots for based aircraft doing typical short haul flying are at a premium. They were granted some of the slots freed up by Monarch, but failed to use them. They will have to reapply. If nobody else applies for extras they will get them. However, there are criteria applied to slots being granted. Their Failiure to use them this year will count against future allocations and may mean other airlines get them. Therefore, no matter how committed they are to an increase it may be out of their hands. Many feel that this years application was a gambit to deter other operators. This (if true) won’t work twice.

[Betablockeruk]

This isn't a grumble, just puzzled.

In the midst of snowmagedon MAN took over 20 BHX & LCY diversions; yesterday MAN took 10 diversions from a fog bound LBA.

This morning LBA has turned away 6 (from arrival boards) and nothing came to MAN. Even the morning DUB-LBA Stobart went to BHX - this flight diverts to MAN that many times that it should be on our schedule just in case!

So, what's the policy? Or is MAN just having a well earned breather?

[Curious Pax]

I can’t give you a definitive answer, but would hazard a guess that MAN Monday mornings are a lot busier than Friday nights or Sundays.

[Mr Mac]

The 96ER
Re your comment on "Double Decker carriers" re de icing. Was with them last night, due out 20.35 off blocks 21.10 into DXB 08.05 15min late. Did speak to CSD who said they were not aware of any special treatment re de ice, though did comment as others have done of the exposed nature of some old MAN equipment. Off to bed now.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

[The96er]

Re your comment on "Double Decker carriers" re de icing. Was with them last night, due out 20.35 off blocks 21.10 into DXB 08.05 15min late. Did speak to CSD who said they were not aware of any special treatment re de ice, though did comment as others have done of the exposed nature of some old MAN equipment. Off to bed now.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

The comment was in reference to when the airport assumes control of de-icing. I was on shift once when the whole Flybe early morning wave eventually got cancelled after waiting several hours for de-icing. The Emirates that landed after the Flybe's was well taken care of. The total number of pax involved would of been equal to that of the A380. There are other instances of that happening too, Wheelchair provision being another example to the detriment of other airlines.

[FFMAN]

This isn't a grumble, just puzzled.

In the midst of snowmagedon MAN took over 20 BHX & LCY diversions; yesterday MAN took 10 diversions from a fog bound LBA.

So, what's the policy? Or is MAN just having a well earned breather?

Having landed midweek in the morning, and taxied round to Stand 26, it staggers me how any additional flights could have been handled. The entire airfield seemed rammed with aircraft including a sizeable contingent of wide-bodies bulking it right out. This was BEFORE any diversions were accepted.
It's clear ramp space is at a premium with the T2 works underway - where would those 'lost' 9 Monarch aircraft have ever got to park?

[Suzeman]

This isn't a grumble, just puzzled.

In the midst of snowmagedon MAN took over 20 BHX & LCY diversions; yesterday MAN took 10 diversions from a fog bound LBA.

This morning LBA has turned away 6 (from arrival boards) and nothing came to MAN. Even the morning DUB-LBA Stobart went to BHX - this flight diverts to MAN that many times that it should be on our schedule just in case!

So, what's the policy? Or is MAN just having a well earned breather?

I fail to see why you get so exercised by all this every time when you think diversions should come to MAN and they don't.

Where an airline chooses to divert to is dependent on a huge number of factors and every occasion is unique. If you have ever sat in an airline or airport operations centre, you will know that there are so many things to consider. Been there and done that.

Yesterday quite a few LBA diversions, particularly Jet2, ended up elsewhere; DSA, LPL and EMA to name but three. What would have happened if they all had come to MAN and then something had closed the airport? Just one of the factors you think about - there are of course loads more.

At this late hour, this morning's LBA arrivals have disappeared off their boards but from FR24, I can see a couple of flights on FR24 that went to HUY and DSA. You should also be asking why the EI flight did not go to one of these or even LPL.

In the event, I believe MAN did a sterling job in the last week of not only keeping their own operations going in dreadful conditions, but accepting diversions too with all the additional work load that causes. But at some stage you have to shut up shop for diversions to ensure that you can safely handle your own traffic which must take priority - apart from emergencies of course.

Add to this the complications caused by easterly operations and taxiway closures and it appears, says he from the comfort of his armchair, that it was a good all round team effort.

[Mr Mac]

The 96er
Thank you for the up date and information. If they get preferential treatment when the airport takes over de icing operations, maybe they do it on the basis of how much they get paid per aircraft, which in the case of LOCO (not sure if FLYBE is in that class) is very little. My wife used to be involved in a large world wide airport group at quite a senior level, and I am quite aware how little this is. Maybe the MAN management looks on it that way, I for sure do not know and neither did the people I spoke to at EK, though I agree airport operations would perhaps not be in their area of expertise. As you work there maybe ask at source ?

Kind regards
Mr Mac

[750XL]

maybe they do it on the basis of how much they get paid per aircraft

All service providers at the airport (whether it be catering, fuelling, cleaning, de-icing, baggage handling, PRM assistance) prioritise airlines in order of who shouts the loudest, which is why the likes Singapore, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar etc very rarely get service delays compared to those airlines with no management staff on station.

It's much easier to delay an Air Transat and send a 'sorry' email then have to deal with 5+ Emirates managers hassling you over the phone and face to face in the next meeting

[wools]

750xl Would not get away with that excuse with Air Transat who do have reps on the Airport. Also would not want to upset one of the GHA's largest customers in Canada.


Not right but those that shout the largest do have an advantage.

[750XL]

750xl Would not get away with that excuse with Air Transat who do have reps on the Airport


The TS reps (who aren't actually TS staff) aren't comparable to reps for the likes of SQ, QR, EK etc in my opinion. Purely a turnaround based presence, airport meetings etc aren't attended and delays are passed straight to TS staff in head office

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Sounds like this is progressing. Nothing concrete...

https://blueswandaily.com/virgin-atlantic-set-to-head-east-out-of-manchester-to-support-its-international-partners/

[BTNH]

Could it be that DNATA have a few question to answer over there performance over the last 2 weeks ( missed bags and so on)?

[zed3]

Just to change the topic a little. Yesterday we drove over to stay at the MAN airport Hilton. We had a concert to attend in Bramhall at 1930. The hotel was fine but the signage at the airport is abysmal. Before moving abroad, I lived near to and thereafter have flown into MAN frequently, so know the area well. However, leaving the hotel and entering the 'system' at 1845 for a 15 minute drive, at the most, one was confronted, among all the road works, with signs for terminals 1,2,and 3, parkings 1- infinity but no directions for the major roads in the area. Following 'exit' painted on the road... seemingly, a while ago... we ended up on the M56 going in the totally wrong direction. After hopefully taking a 'Cheadle Royal' direction sign we headed off to Manchester on the wrong side of the road we wanted... (opposite direction to Cheadle Royal... the old hospital) with no possible exit and 'no u-turn' signs at every opportunity. Ending up in Didsbury and knowing where I was I was able to do a 180 at the lights and backtrack. How do visitors handling a hire car with the steering wheel on the wrong side cope? How do UK visitors cope? Where do they get these managers from... I would assume they are paid for this incompetence. Luckily I know the area and place names and was able to extract myself and make the appointment on time... just!
Why is the dear old UK so hopeless in these simple matters? Harrumph.

[roverman]

Just to change the topic a little. Yesterday we drove over to stay at the MAN airport Hilton. We had a concert to attend in Bramhall at 1930. The hotel was fine but the signage at the airport is abysmal. Before moving abroad, I lived near to and thereafter have flown into MAN frequently, so know the area well. However, leaving the hotel and entering the 'system' at 1845 for a 15 minute drive, at the most, one was confronted, among all the road works, with signs for terminals 1,2,and 3, parkings 1- infinity but no directions for the major roads in the area. Following 'exit' painted on the road... seemingly, a while ago... we ended up on the M56 going in the totally wrong direction. After hopefully taking a 'Cheadle Royal' direction sign we headed off to Manchester on the wrong side of the road we wanted... (opposite direction to Cheadle Royal... the old hospital) with no possible exit and 'no u-turn' signs at every opportunity. Ending up in Didsbury and knowing where I was I was able to do a 180 at the lights and backtrack. How do visitors handling a hire car with the steering wheel on the wrong side cope? How do UK visitors cope? Where do they get these managers from... I would assume they are paid for this incompetence. Luckily I know the area and place names and was able to extract myself and make the appointment on time... just!
Why is the dear old UK so hopeless in these simple matters? Harrumph.


Right now there is an unprecedented and probably unique perfect storm of road works around the airport which is confusing the hell out of everyone including those like me who encounter them every day. We have MAN-TP (the redevelopment of Terminal 2), Airport City North, Airport City West, the Terminal 1 petrol station redevelopment, and the A555 relief road all concurrent. It has been nightmare-ish but I think the worst is now over, certainly Airport City West road improvements seen now to be substantially complete. You were unlucky to hit these at the perihelion.

[brown1950]

Could it be that DNATA have a few question to answer over there performance over the last 2 weeks ( missed backs and so on)?

What do DNATA have to answer to ?

[BTNH]

Try Lufthansa for a start.

[LAX_LHR]

MAG grows in February as it applies to raise passenger cap at London Stansted (http://mediacentre.magairports.com/mag-grows-in-february-as-it-applies-to-raise-passenger-cap-at-london-stansted/)

Up 1.3% for Feb
1,681,406 pax
27.8m pax YTD

Still had the loss of Monarch and reduced Ryanair schedules to contend with so not to bad to be back in growth. No doubt the 50 or so diverts May have helped the cause.

[southside bobby]

More power to the Empire....

[jfy1999]

4x weekly Malaga added from October.

[LAX_LHR]

Not sure what to make of the Primera news.

They seem to be rather, scatty, with their route planning so we need to err on the side of caution.

But, it seems the Spanish routes ex-MAN have gone the other way from the overcapacity issues so Primera May be able to find a niche in the schedules.

With their route planning however, I doubt this is the only new route we will see in the next few months from Primera. There was a dot over Manchester regarding future bases (possibly TATL) on a recent video presentation, so, wonder if a STN/MAN deal is in place.

While I fear Primera would be trounced by MT/VS on a NYC and BOS route, it would be welcome to have Washington back and judging by prices, Toronto could use more peak season capacity, as well as more than just 2 weekly in winter.

But I suppose its a wait and see how it pans out kind of moment.

[ZOOKER]

Looking at the A555 at Woodford yesterday, it's completion is still about 9 months away, unless there is a plan to open it one section at a time. I believe the carriageway between the old and new A34s has suffered some kind of partial-collapse on the eastbound side?
On Monday evening, all the signals in the 3-way control at Styal Road/Ringway Road were showing permanent reds.

[ericlday]

They needed permanent 'Reds' for last nights match......sorry for thread drift !!!

[IB4138]

Primera have been very clever with their AGP flight times. They have spotted the gap left by Monarch and Norwegian in the schedules for flights late afternoon/early evening.

[Flightrider]

I am not sure that moving into a gap vacated by one bankrupt airline and another which has exited said market due to unsustainably low yields is exactly a sensible business strategy. Hopefully Primera do not do themselves irreparable damage with this scattergun approach to the UK market.

[southside bobby]

....Plenty of experience in the market,owned by tour operators & it is not just about MAN per se.

It appears to be helping to fill gaps/making use of the airframe`s deployment into the UK.

Will be interesting to see how MAN does develop however as it appears MAG have forged a good relationship with Primera.

[Centre cities]

....Plenty of experience in the market,owned by tour operators & it is not just about MAN per se.

It appears to be helping to fill gaps/making use of the airframe`s deployment into the UK.

Will be interesting to see how MAN does develop however as it appears MAG have forged a good relationship with Primera.


This utilities a Malaga based aircraft that fills its time operating to Manchester, Birmingham and Paris.

Centre cities

[Flightrider]

All lovely. Let's see if it is still here in 12 months time having proved economically viable. None of us can predict that with certainty so only time will tell.

[LAX_LHR]

Turkish sending more A330 over the next few weeks.

[MKY661]

Hopefully Primera will use T2 with T1 looking pretty full.

[LAX_LHR]

So, last year Hainan applied to the CAAC to serve Changsha-Heathrow from March, Beijing-Dublin/Edinburgh from June and Guangzhou-Manchester from December. With the former routes now officially announced, hopefully this stands good stated that the latter will also get announced in due course to complete the full house.

[bjones4]

All of the Jet2 Spain flights, including the A330 ones are currently listed in Chroma as T2. This one would assume if this is correct, pax will be using T2.

Is there anything official yet as to whether this will be happening? booked flights to ACE yesterday for early summer and no mention of anything out of the ordinary terminal wise.

[UnderASouthernSky]

Looking at the A555 at Woodford yesterday, it's completion is still about 9 months away, unless there is a plan to open it one section at a time. I believe the carriageway between the old and new A34s has suffered some kind of partial-collapse on the eastbound side?
On Monday evening, all the signals in the 3-way control at Styal Road/Ringway Road were showing permanent reds.

The signs I have seen for the A555 W/B carriageway repairs (not E/B) for the collapsed drains suggest a completion date of June-July18. This is probably a factor in why the SEMMMS completion date has recently been updated to "late summer 18".

The Styal Road/Ringway Road area is currently a 4-way set of lights, allowing departing Staff East/Jetparks traffic its own sequence - so possibly it was their light which was on green.

[750XL]

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2018/03/15/ethiopian-airlines-hints-routes-uk-airports/

[LAX_LHR]

Is there anything official yet as to whether this will be happening? booked flights to ACE yesterday for early summer and no mention of anything out of the ordinary terminal wise.

Yes a list of moved routes has been published but jet2 on their website

[MKY661]

Is there anything official yet as to whether this will be happening? booked flights to ACE yesterday for early summer and no mention of anything out of the ordinary terminal wise.

Flights to AGP, PMI, TFS and ACE will switch over to T2 on 11th April. All other routes are still in T1 for the time being.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2018/03/15/ethiopian-airlines-hints-routes-uk-airports/

Hmmm...

You would assume MAN would be at the forefront of any non-London UK service.

[LAX_LHR]

Vueling have increased BCN-MAN to 8 weekly for August and 1st week of Sept:

VY8748 BCN 1210 MAN 1345
VY8749 MAN 1425 BCN 1745
Daily

VY8758 BCN 1820 MAN 1955
VY8759 MAN 2040 BCN 2359
Monday’s

Confirmed and bookable.

[Navpi]

Hmmm...

You would assume MAN would be at the forefront of any non-London UK service.


I thought Gatwick was in the frame ?

[LAX_LHR]

Gatwick is in the frame but the CEO has also stated he is looking away from London too. It could be that Gatwick is getting a transit flight (suggested by someone) and MAN a stand alone flight, likely to be 2-3 weekly initially I’d imagine.

[SWBKCB]

Bad press re queues to get through T1 security

Frustrated passengers say they have been queuing for 90 minutes in the departures hall at Manchester Airport .

There are currently long delays affecting check-in desks and security in the Terminal One section of the airport.

A spokeswoman for Manchester Airport said it is unclear why there are long queues today, but explained T1 is busy with passengers this morning.


https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-terminal-1-delays-14418601

[pholling]

Bad press re queues to get through T1 security




https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-terminal-1-delays-14418601

Are they still redoing the main security checkpoint and routing almost everyone through the ground level one? If so that creates significant log jams.

[Curious Pax]

Reportedly a couple of incidents with buses in the staff car park delaying security staff reporting in, plus a faulty scanner out of service.

[DP.]

Are they still redoing the main security checkpoint and routing almost everyone through the ground level one? If so that creates significant log jams.

More to do with the fact that they've put the T1 staff in a car park that's basically in Styal, on a route that has again been subject to massive delays of late, and now apparently a lack of resilience in the bus operation when something goes wrong.

[FFMAN]

All of this fairly predictable to the average citizen never mind people who are paid well to manage risk and to avoid such eventualities.

On another matter.....to those out there who still think business class demand is weak in the regions....I'm off on a trip on Monday. I got the last seat in business on the outbound. For the return, I've been wait-listed in business for the last two weeks and face a long haul trip in economy if something doesn't free up.
So this particular airline is faced with a client wanting to give it more money for comfort but not being able to....hmmm

[Mr A Tis]

FF is right, the terminal should not grind to a halt for the want of a contingency in the staff buses.
If there was a decent bus network in the local area, many would forgo the staff car park hassle- sadly the public bus network continues to contract and for many, it is worse than it was 40 years ago.

[Espada III]

Are they still redoing the main security checkpoint and routing almost everyone through the ground level one? If so that creates significant log jams.

Bizarre treatment a week ago at T1 security. I dropped my wife off at departures so she could do the luggage drop for easyJet, whilst I took the car to the Meet & Greet reception.

I dropped the car off, went into the terminal at ground level arrivals, went up to departures, walked through the regular security lanes and went into the departure lounge. Whilst in security, in a text conversation with my wife, we both understood the other to be in security but could not see each other. It was only an hour later that I realised she had been refused entry to the regular security, but had to go through the ground level lanes, despite being next to the entrance to main security at the EZY bag drop.

Still don't know why she was refused and I was permitted?

[rkenyon]

Still don't know why she was refused and I was permitted?

They open and close the upper security depending on how many people are queueing. I went through last Monday just as they re-opened the regular security (about 11:30am). I was in FastTrack, and the queues were quite long for the standard security.

[sparkysam]

Mrs S on shuttle today two hours waiting to go to LHR missed connection to AUS spending night in hotel then flying via JFK. She,s not happy.....
Cheer,s Sam

[TURIN]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-terminal-1-parking-14433966

Wonderful!!:mad:

[LAX_LHR]

It’s annoying that people now have to pay, but I also agree that something needs to be done about the traffic around the site. Came off a flight at 11pm the other day, and the roads around the airport were gridlocked. (Granted I know that is to do with all the roadworks but still).

Also, it doesn’t help that people sit in the drop off lanes waiting to pick up, and then as Tricia says, just circling the site when moved on only to come back again (mostly taxi drivers doing this but I’m not going to go into the poor driving standards of cab drivers lately).

Once again it seems the minority have ruined it for the majority.

[TURIN]

Its just very poor planning by MAG. All the roadworks at once have changed so many routes that SatNavs can't keep up. The number of people that are driving around totally lost is staggering. The road signs are dreadful and confusing. I get stopped by stressed and lost drivers nearly every day as I walk into work.

This is just money grabbing to hide the problem.

[LAX_LHR]

There probably is an element of money grabbing but traffic management is needed, as said, the people hogging the free pick up lanes and circling the site to avoid the fees are not lost.

I actually quite like the idea of the remote and free pick up/drop off. If it helps remove some traffic from the CTA then go for it.

As for the money grabbing, with £1bn (scrap that, I mean £750m) being spent on the terminal, the effort to claw back money was going to begin somewhere.

[ETOPS]

I can see the remote drop-off area turning to chaos within days - I will bet real money that queues will build up as, inevitably, MAG will manage to provide too few busses and passengers will resort to getting as close as possible and then walking.....:ugh:

[ZOOKER]

What is needed are more multi-storey car-parks. These should have been built years ago.

[FFMAN]

Bad form.
Just one further reason for me to try to avoid business trips by air as much as possible. Skype and WhatsApp can take care of a surprising amount of things these days The entire flying experience is just torture now.
Avoid the whole horrible place where ever possible.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

What is needed are more multi-storey car-parks. These should have been built years ago.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, albeit I think the desired outcome (clearing the terminal forecourts of as much traffic as realistically possible) will require a much wider solution than building more car parks

In particular, the airport requires a much faster and more reliable method of getting people from remote car parks to the terminal buildings. Bussed solutions do not cut it at it stands now, and certainly won't if the airport has genuine aspirations of growing beyond 30-35 million annual passengers.

Obviously better (faster, cleaner, more reliable and comfortable) public transport so as to encourage a greater percentage of airport journeys helps, but people use the car far more outside of London so I'm not sure this is a realistic aspiration without massive investment and generational changes in behaviour.

In the short term, the apparent value engineering of the TP appears to continue apace. When all is said and done, it will be interesting to trace this process back through the various design iterations - but that's a subject for another day!

[ZOOKER]

FFMAN,
A good point. I think 'business travel' could be on the way out. Back in the 1980s, my favourite film, 'Local Hero' contains the line 'Do I really have to go there?" The deal could, allegedly have been wrapped up 'over the wires'...meaning TELEX.

Just look how far we have come since then, with the internet, and the potential savings of time, ££££ and CO2. :ok:

[doublesix]

I understand traffic marshals have no legal power to move people on if they refuse. However,have airport management considered asking Police to deploy PCSO’s to assist and issue tickets if people if they stop to pick up? I know this may incur a charge, but perhaps MAG should bear the cost instead of punishing the majority

[sparkysam]

Just wondered why SEMMS at £380 million is being built. Cheers Sam

[ZOOKER]

doublesix.....'Deploying PCSOs'?

It's an airport, not a crime scene.

[ZOOKER]

Dobbo points out that EGCC has aspirations of 30,000,000 pax pa, and that's the lower figure.

In a leap-year, that's just short of 82,000 pax per day.

Or just over 3400 pax per hour, assuming it's smoothed-out over 24h..Which it won't be.

How will that work?....From a terminal capacity point-of-view, and from a ground transport point-of-view?

[doublesix]

doublesix.....'Deploying PCSOs'?

It's an airport, not a crime scene.

PCSO are not Police they are there to assist Police (Hence assisting in moving on inconsiderant Parker’s.) Surely a help to the current situation!

[ETOPS]

inconsiderate Parker’s

I think you will find these are "inconsiderate passengers" who have the gall to try and turn up in their own cars !!

[Mr A Tis]

I used to travel to the airport by bus(369) for regular flights to Southampton. This bus along with many services (18,44,200,369)have been withdrawn or soon will be. This has meant a taxi instead to T3- drop off congested due to poor layout. Soon to add another £3-£4 to the fare for the privilege. Then join the huge queues at security (or pay again for a couple of minutes improvement)to join an overcrowded Terminal, with limited seating-or be refused from an over crowded lounge. A thoroughly unpleasant experience.
I am now bypassing this mess and using the train to Southampton.
I think the UK is the only country I have ever come across that charge their customers to just turn up- all part of rip off Britain.
Manchester Airport has the worst take up of public transport than any other major UK airport.
I'm surprised any domestic services survive operating from this airport given the time it takes to be processed.

[MAN777]

If we must have drop off parking charges to ease congestion, surely expecting drivers to leave car and join a line at a payment machine is going to make things worse ?

A system similar to the Dart charge (Dartford crossing) would be best, in and out and pay later online.

[UnderASouthernSky]

If we must have drop off parking charges to ease congestion, surely expecting drivers to leave car and join a line at a payment machine is going to make things worse ?

A system similar to the Dart charge (Dartford crossing) would be best, in and out and pay later online.

Who said anything about leaving your car to pay?

[Mr A Tis]

If they were serious about reducing airport congestion- they could agree to donate the £4 per car to a public transport fund to finance a decent local bus network to/from the Airport. Now that just might reduce congestion around the Airport, not just the terminal forecourt.
We know it's about making money and they don't really want to do anything that would affect the car parking cash cow.

STOP PRESS:
Maybe I spoke too soon.....
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-invest-six-figure-14440012

[vinnym]

Who said anything about leaving your car to pay?

What method of payment are they suggesting? If it involves barriers then congestion will only get worse and it really is only a means to generate more cash.

[pholling]

What method of payment are they suggesting? If it involves barriers then congestion will only get worse and it really is only a means to generate more cash.

BFS has coin slots on theirs, but it is only £1. My suggestion is contactless payments only, either that or pre-pay. The big issue will arise when you go over 5 minutes because of queues to exit. If you cannot get through the system in less than 5 minutes it will pose potentially significant issues contract law.

[TURIN]

What method of payment are they suggesting? If it involves barriers then congestion will only get worse and it really is only a means to generate more cash.

Credit/Debit cards seem pretty common these days. If you ever use the M6 Toll you will know about the card payment machines. No PIN required just in/out or tap and go.
Even the coin basket could be used.
its pretty quick.

I don't like the idea of being charged more for using the airport either but it is possible to do without too much trouble.

[inOban]

If they were serious about reducing airport congestion- they could agree to donate the £4 per car to a public transport fund to finance a decent local bus network to/from the Airport. Now that just might reduce congestion around the Airport, not just the terminal forecourt.
We know it's about making money and they don't really want to do anything that would affect the car parking cash cow.
Unfortunately it isn't possible to run a reliable bus service along roads clogged with cars!
Manchester must be the only UK airport served by not one but two segregated services - train and tram. I know that the usage of the airport station is growing faster than that of the airport.

[LAX_LHR]

DY1771 LPA-TRD seems to have dropped in for fuel.

[FFMAN]

Credit/Debit cards seem pretty common these days. If you ever use the M6 Toll you will know about the card payment machines. No PIN required just in/out or tap and go.
Even the coin basket could be used.
its pretty quick.

I don't like the idea of being charged more for using the airport either but it is possible to do without too much trouble.

But it is the principle involved.
Britain is almost unique in doing this because we let PR and marketing types* persuade us that we (the customer) are the problem and that we must be punished for our unreasonable behaviour.
Try getting away with this in the US...or Europe...or anywhere else. People would just not put up with it. but here in rip off Britain.:mad:

Other much bigger airports than Manchester can manage the traffic flows around the terminals much better. As others have said, by re-opening the closed off drop off points around the terminals (particularly T3) this problem would not exist. One can only conclude that the gradual closing down of these areas is a carefully orchestrated plan over the last few years by the airport management to make these charges seem 'inevitable'.

Well this premium FF is definitely going to become a less frequent FF from June. I had a conversation yesterday with one of the project teams along the lines of 'is it really necessary to physically meet?'
I hope the airlines are reading this.

* If you read the MEN: 'an airport spokesman said' piece, linked above, apparently it's not an airport anymore it's a 'campus' :mad: Perhaps if the management didn't waste money on paying salaries to idiots like that and spent the money on problem solving, they wouldn't have got themselves in to this mess.

[Skipness One Echo]

I note that the US, which suffered the worst terrorist attack in world history, still lets you drop off outside the terminal building. We're mugs.
Also TSA, pull a fraction of the bags aside for "re-screening" than security theatre in the UK, it's a for-show pantomime to a large extent.

[SWBKCB]

I note that the US, which suffered the worst terrorist attack in world history, still lets you drop off outside the terminal building. We're mugs.

Anybody remember Glasgow?

Also TSA, pull a fraction of the bags aside for "re-screening" than security theatre in the UK, it's a for-show pantomime to a large extent.

But having established a level of checking, how do you reduce it? The first incident would be perceived to be down to the reduction in checking levels.

One can only conclude that the gradual closing down of these areas is a carefully orchestrated plan over the last few years by the airport management to make these charges seem 'inevitable'.

How do people expect airports to be paid for? You can't have low fares and "free" airports.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

RAM expands to 4x weekly.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/277770/royal-air-maroc-increases-manchester-service-in-s18/

[TheFiddler]

I assume my airline pays to use the whole airport, I wonder if they asked for a refund?

One of the major based airlines sent MAG a bill for £5k a week will having to cane the engines from M due to cars on J. Don't know if the bills were ever paid though...

[pholling]

Anybody remember Glasgow?



But having established a level of checking, how do you reduce it? The first incident would be perceived to be down to the reduction in checking levels.
....

It might also not be good to compare yourself to an organisation that calls missing only 95% of test articles meant to be caught as a success. Keeping in mind that the security in 2001 would not have even tried to stop people with box-cutters as they were acceptable in the US at the time.

[pholling]

One of the major based airlines sent MAG a bill for £5k a week will having to cane the engines from M due to cars on J. Don't know if the bills were ever paid though...

Only way that MAG would have to pay-up is if the terms of the usage contract specified recovery of losses due to the use of Mike intersection departures, it would be based on what service level was promised vs delivered. Even then while airlines were requested and generally given Mike, the could request full length, so it might not stand. That doesn't mean the MAG did not give a refund. Incidentally, in court the airline would have to be able to demonstrate actual losses and not theoretical losses beyond just the fees payed.

[LAX_LHR]

Iraqi Airways appears to be going 2 weekly this summer with BGW-MAN-BGW on sat and ISU-MAN-ISU on Sun.

[Suzeman]

Pity the Airport closed down its dedicated public transport section a decade ago. They were making good progress in developing new and enhanced links at the time.

[roverman]

Pity the Airport closed down its dedicated public transport section a decade ago. They were making good progress in developing new and enhanced links at the time.

Not quite what they had before but there is a chap now dedicated to Ground Transport (including roads, poor chap). A gentleman by the name of Rob Sawyer, a cycle commuter to boot.

[ZOOKER]

Splendid roverman.

Sadly, for the airport's average bucket-and-spade, kids-in-tow, baseball-cap wearing punters, cycling is not an option, so, unfortunately, Rob will 'hit the ground running', completely out of touch with reality.

[Logohu]

The Virgin 744 is now scheduled to do JFK daily from 15May (instead of 4x JFK and 3x ATL). So ATL becomes a daily A332 from the same date.

Anyone remember when MAN last had a daily 747 on the JFK run ? I certainly remember BA 747-100s on the JFK route (including a daily LGW-MAN-JFK after the BCAL takeover), but can't recall if there was ever a daily turnaround flight.

Somewhat makes up for the loss of the AA210/211 capacity anyway

[Caravaggio]

We all know that Manchester Airport planning that customers must pay to be dropped off and picked up at airports is just another way to extract cash and has nothing to do with congestion.

Congestion that was caused by reformatting the road system. Not that this frequent traveler has seen any congestion.

They have form on this of course. Security queue too busy. Pay for fast pass. Good way of funding the staff to man those unmanned security channels.
Day one of the new drop off regime might be interesting if cars deliberately stopped outside the charging zone and blocked all access to the airport with queues backing up to the M56.

What is Manchester’s solution? Increase door to door travel time by another 30 minutes. Reminds me of the pirate t-shirt slogan ‘the beatings will continue until morale improves’

[brian_dromey]

Charging for drop-off seems to have enraged quite a few posters. On one had there is a demand for better roads, better terminal facilities all of which should have been delivered already, yet a total unwillingness for the airport to raise revenue. These same posters don't want drop-off fees, don't want walk-through duty-free, don't want the fast-track options to be offered. Presumably they also want the £19.99 fares too. I get that having your cake and eating it is ideal, but someone has to pay for that Billion pound cake.