Manchester-2

[Ribble56]

I had the misfortune use Manchester a couple of times recently, and not having passed through this airport for some time preferring to fly from elsewhere, I was absolutely appalled by my travel experience,both times through T1 which is bursting at the seams, cues for every eatery and bar no seating, but the British public will continue to book and cues will get longer as airlines continue to add new routes to an Airport which hasn't changed for 20yrs, I HAD to use this airport, but will think long and hard next time.

[AndrewH52]

"They might as well close 23L and turn that into a carpark as it hardly fulfills much of it's potential as second runway anyway".

No idea on the Manchester experience but like MAG'S other major offering STN. I assume it's functional.

My main point however is runways.I would ask somebody in Air traffic if they agree with the statement above ?

Given the eyewatering figures for a new runway at Heathrow I would say the cost of the second runway at Manchester was a bargain.

Brighter people than me will know the figures but I doubt Manchester could achieve 28m on a single runway operation due to the close proximity of the terminal.

In terms of cost be in no doubt it was a bargain if compared to a similar structure of
£8,000,000,000 million at Heathrow.

I agree Navpi, £8 trillion is a bit much...

[MANFOD]

Sorry, tried to delete and made a mess of it. I see now that navpi also included the word million.

Apparently there is a long version of 8 billion which would include 12 'zeros' and a shorter version that would only be 9 'zeros'. That puzzles me, but hey ho.

As to the criticisms of MAN, I really do think it is down to personal experience. My own have been not too bad over the past 2 years but T1 worse than T2. Last arrival at T2 we were off the a/c, through Border Control and had collected cases in just under 15 minutes.

However, I really do feel MAG/MAN ought to be announcing some plans for T3 if there are any. If some airlines do move over in due course to the expanded T2, it will still leave Ryanair in T3 presumably (and flybe?), but that may be a few years off with conditions deteriorating further in the meantime.

[MANFOD]

Apparently there is a long version of 8 billion which would include 12 'zeros' and a shorter version that would only be 9 'zeros'. That puzzles me, but hey ho. .

One web site explains that the old UK definition of a billion was a million million (12 zeros), whereas the US version is a thousand million (9 zeros). Now I've no idea whether this trivia is correct, but it could prove useful in trying to determine just how much is being spent on major infrastructure projects in a certain part of the country. No?

Meanwhile, how close will MAN get to 28 million passengers in 2017 (just 6 zeros).

[AndrewH52]

Following last week's departure woes, last night's return was, on the whole, much more smooth (apart from the flight itself being late, again).

However, we were allocated stand 12 which meant the long walk down Pier B to Border Control and baggage reclaim. It got me thinking about the process for arrivals once the redevelopment of T2 is complete? Will pax arriving at Pier B have to walk all the way to T2?

[Barnstable]

Quick question - upon arrival in Manc T2, is it possible to get into the airside bars in the departure area, possibly by following the transfer signs, if you aren't doing a transfer? I have a short window to meet with someone for a pint next week and we would be more relaxed if she'd cleared security first

[Navpi]

Trillion (short scale) (1,000,000,000,000; one million million; 1012; SI prefix: tera-), the current meaning in both American and British English
Trillion (long scale) (1,000,000,000,000,000,000; one million million

million; 1018; SI prefix: exa-), the former meaning in British English and current usage in many non-English-speaking countries

Usually a "million" is added at the end ?

[AndrewH52]

Trillion (short scale) (1,000,000,000,000; one million million; 1012; SI prefix: tera-), the current meaning in both American and British English
Trillion (long scale) (1,000,000,000,000,000,000; one million million

million; 1018; SI prefix: exa-), the former meaning in British English and current usage in many non-English-speaking countries

Usually a "million" is added at the end ?

No, not if you don't want to confuse the situation...

[lplsprog]

They could always use the correct word for 1,000million which is a Milliard!!

[Mr A Tis]

Not so much a view, as actual experience. I guess if you're only using T3 five times a year at the same times, then you probably haven't got the true nature of this "facility"

[gojmc]

With easyjet now having released its early summer schedule has anyone done the analysis of how many based aircraft will be required?

[LAX_LHR]

It looks like 12 based still, but will try and have a look later.

Routes/Frequencies pe:

ALC: 9
AMS: 21
AYT: 2
ATH: 4
BSL: 7
BFS: 16
SXF: 13
BIO: 6
CPH: 11
CFU: 5
BIA: 1
HER: 4
PFO: 7
DLM: 5
DBV: 2
GVA: 14
GIB: 3
GRX: 2
HAM: 6 (back to normal after capacity slug out with RYR/EW)
EFL: 2
KRK: 3
FNC: 2
PMI: 7
AGP: 7
MLA: 7
RAK: 2
MRS: 2
MXP: 7
MUC: 5
JMK: 2
CDG: 9
PSA: 3
OPO: 3
PRG: 6
PVK: 2
KEF: 2
JTR: 3
OLB: 3
CTA: 4
SOF: 3
SPU: 3
TLV: 2
TFS: 5
SKG: 3
TIV: 2
VCE: 3
VIE: 3

Not loaded:

AGA (2)
LPA (2) (winter only)
LYS (1) (winter only)
TRN (1) (winter only)

[MANFOD]

Thanks for that. Those weekly frequencies add up to 243 flights if my maths is correct. Not sure how that compares with April-June 2017.

[ZOOKER]

Interesting to note that EGCC has just won a TTG award for the 'Best U.K. Airport'......Especially considering some of the recent comments on 'Manchester 1'.

Good to have a new discussion forum though.

[LAX_LHR]

Just checked Easyjet and it requires 12 based every morning. Not sure about afternoons as its always more difficult to work out.

[roverman]

Interesting to note that EGCC has just won a TTG award for the 'Best U.K. Airport'......Especially considering some of the recent comments on 'Manchester 1'.

Good to have a new discussion forum though.


The vastly contrasting accounts and opinions of the MAN experience (and other airports) shows how much it can be down to individual user travel patterns - when and where you go to and through can have a marked influence on your experience of the service and facilities.

The myriad of travel industry journal awards in the UK rather undermines the value of any of them. No doubt the booze up in tuxedo and party dress makes it worthwhile for those involved.

[ZOOKER]

It's like 'the music business', roverman........Too many meaningless award ceremonies, and a lack of quality in 'The marketplace'.......Wherever that is.

[Betablockeruk]

Ever heard the phrase 'vanity award'?

http://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_award#Vanity_business_awards

I'm not saying this is one but I doubt any of the voters have endured non business class, no lounge and the massive border control queue to get back into Blighty (not sure how they can dodge the latter) but MAN is not a great customer experience.

[LAX_LHR]

Royal Air Maroc increasing Casablanca-Manchester to 4 weekly with a new Friday flight starting 30th March.

[LAX_LHR]

This isn't a 'MAN apologist' view, but one in general, as most UK airports suffer 'long' border queues, even the mighty Heathrow.

I often see sensationalist headlines and quotes of 'many stuck in border queue' and so on.

'Ooh Barbara, there must be 150 in this queue, it's totally not on'.

Yes Geoff. Of course there is 150 in front of you, you were last ones off a plane that holds 189 people, not to mention the flight from Munich parked up alongside you that also holds about 150 people, so what the hell are you expecting exactly? Where is it people think that your fellow passengers go once you exit the aircraft! You all have to go through the same blooming door!

It's just a British thing, we love to moan about Weather, the darkness level of a cuppa and how long the queue is. A queue could be 1 person deep and the person still find it unacceptable. What is this obsession with a queue, I just don't get it!

Came through MAN T1 last night, border took 8 minutes and people still moaning 'this is bloody ridiculous'. What were they planning to do with that 8 minutes they 'lost'?

Just baffles me, it really does!

[Mr A Tis]

LAX_LHR Try 15 minutes for a marshaller + 10 minutes for an airbridge + 50 minutes for bags & you are the only arrival.

[ZOOKER]

A queue results from a system's failure to cope with the demand on offer.,,,,,,Whether it be a supermarket checkout, a motorway, or one of the multitude of scenarios at EGCC, or any other airport.

[LAX_LHR]

I wouldn't know as its never really happened to me (travel too many times to mention but longest wait for bags at MAN has been about 45 minutes on very few occasions. Unless I'm just 'lucky' nearly every single time I fly, in which case I must really buy a lotto ticket!)

Honestly hand on heart never had to wait for a marsheller, jetbridge or steps have always been there within 5 minutes. Not saying iyour events dont happen as I'm certain they do from time to time, but, apart from the long depressing walk down B pier at T1 or the naff domestic arrivals corridor in T3, that's about as bad as it gets for me.

Last night I was one of 4(?) arrivals (may have been a 5th but didn't read the boards properly) and it took me no more than 35 minutes from arriving on stand to getting outside arrivals. 5 or so minutes of that was getting the steps attached, 7 or so minutes walking down B pier, 8 minutes at Border, 10 minutes for bags and then the last few minutes walking out of baggage.

Like I say, that may make me a MAN apologist, but I can only report my own personal experiences. I know the actual terminal space is a depressing, crampt and no longer fit for modern day passengers, but as we know MAN are working on that, as we know how long it takes for infrastructure projects to get moving in the UK (look at LHR T5, the late 1980's was when that was first put for discussion to the public!).

MAN is far from perfect, I know, you know and we all know. But, it does the job and with growing passenger numbers, it's clearly doing something right, as if this forum was indicative of the issues, passenger numbers would be falling with the amout of people opting to fly from elsewhere.

[LAX_LHR]

A queue results from a system's failure to cope with the demand on offer.,,,,,,Whether it be a supermarket checkout, a motorway, or one of the multitude of scenarios at EGCC, or any other airport.

But how do you deal with that issue? You say it's a failure, but, how would you process say, the 615 passengers coming off the Emirates A380 in the evening, without a queue forming? Basing that the 615 could all be couples as an example, that's 306-ish 'travelling parties'. Do you have 306 border desks, all manned and ready to receive, as that's the only way to stop a queue forming and thus, 'a failiure'?

So, it's inevitable that a queue will form. and completely inconceivable that you can prevent a queue forming in such a scenario. Even if you staggered and held people back, all you are doing is pushing the queue to somewhere else....

[ZOOKER]

If an A388 arrival is expected, then every possible resource should be mustered to process the passenger load as quickly as can be achieved. ACDM should provide the advance warning that an influx of inbound bods is imminent. The simultaneous arrival of large numbers of pax is not a new phenomenon.......It was identified as an issue when the 747-100s first started operating about 45 years ago.

[mickyman]

People are like sheep,one has a minor issue with a delay (because obviously THEY are in a hurry and THEY are so important) and everyone jumps on it.People think they can moan about everything instead of just chilling and waiting their turn.The internet is the perfect vessel for these moaners - one of its faults is that it lets anybody 'start a fight' so to speak.
From my own experience of Manchester I can say I have never had much of a delay at any stage of progressing through it at all times of the day and night - indeed the only delay I have had recently was at Stansted getting through control - but I made my flight so everything was okay.In fact the only reason TOO moan is if you miss your flight - everything else is just piffle by people who spend their whole life moaning and can never be satisfied.

[ZOOKER]

Around the late 1980s, a 'ground-breaking' system was installed at EGCC called 'FMCS'. This provided information about the progress of individual flights to and from the airport, and this data was routinely available to all interested parties. I believe passenger loadings were included in the data that was routinely transmitted.
Yet, a quarter of a century later, EGCC is still 'behind the drag curve' in respect of handling a/c and pax.

How can this be?

[mickyman]

ZOOKER

...because 'PROGRESS' isnt a lot of the time in this day and age - the thought that everything gets better and we live in a progressive age is to be scientific about it - BOLLOX !

[LAX_LHR]

If an A388 arrival is expected, then every possible resource should be mustered to process the passenger load as quickly as can be achieved. ACDM should provide the advance warning that an influx of inbound bods is imminent. The simultaneous arrival of large numbers of pax is not a new phenomenon.......It was identified as an issue when the 747-100s first started operating about 45 years ago.

But that's the crux isn't it. You originally stated that a queue is formed by a failiure to cope with demand.

So, let's take that A380 scenario again, with 615 pax, and assuming all pax travelling in 2's so 306-308-ish travelling parties. They all disembark at the 'same time' (obviously via regular 2 door flow) and border force have been informed, so they open all 12 desks (let's just ignore the e-gates for now as we know some people can't use them for various reasons and I think it's 12 desks, but can't remember). Space is limited at any airport, doesn't matter if that Singapore Changi or Doncaster airport.

That means there is still going to be a queue of 25.5 people at each desk, which will still give the image of a large queue. Then what if the LH2500 arrives, the LH947, the LS901 etc etc.

So, the question then goes back to 'what do people expect'. You have informed of the volume, you have opened every desk, you are doing the job as quickly as you can but you still have a large queue. It's not a failiure, it's just volume and thus people need to learn to be a little more patient.

We all have to be somewhere, we all want the same thing so sometimes we just have to realise that these things take time.

[DP.]

The MAN experience isn't as bad as some would make out, but there are plenty of issues that can't simply be put down to 'the airport experience'.

A colleague arrived on an evening domestic flight last weekend. Between a lack of ground staff to get them off the aircraft, problems actually getting them into the terminal, and the long wait for taxis with their "official taxi partner", it took him almost two hours to reach the city centre. That is not acceptable.

[ZOOKER]

LAX,
If the scenario you describe happens, then all 12 lanes should be open, tactically there is no excuse for it not to happen.

Strategically, maybe more lanes should have been provided? There are 3 double-decker buses arrive each day, and they didn't start arriving un-announced.

Much of the Manchester forum on PPRuNe is about new services, or increasing frequencies of the services already established. What is the point of that if the airport is struggling to cope with the situation existing at present?

A colleague of mine recently flew LSGG-EGCC, arriving mid-afternoon. It took 30 minutes longer from arriving on stand at T1 to his home in Bramhall, than it did to fly from Switzerland to Stand 6.

The airport, as Mr A Tis observes, sadly, seems to be constantly playing 'catch-up'. Car-parking is now a major issue, and will only get worse as 'Airport City' is developed. Public transport to anywhere south and east of the airport site is virtually non-existant. Due to a lack of foresight/investment 20 years ago, it has in 05R/23L, one of the most inefficient runways in The U.K.

The airports own FB page strongly advises people to turn up 3 hours before departure time, that doesn't include travel time required to get to EGCC. I can foresee more pax opting to go via Yeadon or John Lennon for certain services. Had it not had its misfortunes over the last few years, even Blackpool would have been a viable alternative, being only an hour by road from Manchester city-centre.

The 'Halcyon Days' of 'MIA - Serving the business-end of Britain', and Manchester Airport, 'Gateway Airport', (with the 'Terry's Chocolate Orange' logo), seem to be, (like the aircraft that carried that name), long gone.

[LAX_LHR]

Well, Manchester growing at a faster rate both percentage and volume rate than LPL and LBA so clearly MAN doing something right.

And an hour by road from Manchester city centre to BLK? On a very good day maybe! Can take an hour to get out of Manchester itself some days!

You also need to remember that out of 27.4 million passengers, we seem to be taking about 200 or so 'disgruntled' tweets and forum posters as gospel that the MAN experience is sh*t. That's much less than 1% of the total, about a B737-800 worth of passengers.

What about the other 27.3999 passengers that didn't complain? What brings them back?

[Skipness One Echo]

Sorry but who cares if MAN is growing faster than LBA or LPL? That's bragging rights.
How about has existing capacity been well planned? Is there sufficient contingency? How much better is the customer experience?

Bottom line is that senior decision makers have been able to get away with short term planning decisions on a tactical basis and that only gets you so far. The fact that the second runway is decidedly sub optimal hasn't helped. If they'd rebuilt the terminals rather than focussing on a parallel runway then I believe they'd be in a better place. The layout remains a counter intuitive nightmare, even today. Gatwick still just about manages to get by on one runway and have some of the best terminal facilities in the UK as they've spent a fortune in recent years. MAN is now going to rebuild the terminals, so pain today, gain tomorrow, but they're way behind the curve here. If you think only 200 people were less than impressed you're fooling yourself. One can be a supporter of MAN but be open and honest without defending every single aspect of the operation.

[LAX_LHR]

1500 passengers in the immigration queue. You know as well as I do you can count on one hand the amount of times that has happened!

Yes, border queues can get long, just as they do at LHR, LGW, BHX, USA airports, even DSA and LPL have experienced long queues at one time or other. Show me one single airport in the UK handling over 1mil pax that hasn't experienced a border queue at various times and then I will aknowledge MAN has a particular problem.

Look, as we have gone over it time and again, is MAN perfect? No. I too could list many 'trivial' problems with the site, it's clearly old, it's aesthetically crap and in dire need of the renovations it's getting.
But is MAN unique in having issues? No, not by a long shot. Has the renovation started too late, yes, one could easily argue they are late, but the point is, things are now being addressed.

MAN is trying to sort out some remedial problems too.

-They have created more space in T3 security by moving the police interview/watch rooms and the managers podium. I believe they are also making lane 2 into the new dedicated fast track line, but that is a bit slower coming as I also believe they have to add a new biometric gate to access the extra lane. This new dedicated fast track lane will also free up lane 5 to be more available to passengers.

-T3 itself is obviously very space constrained. They are adding more walkways to reach the further stands, they have added a new lounge to try and appease the higher end passenger and added a new fast food option, which fits in with some of the Ryanair crowds. There's not a huge amount more they can do in T3 so I suppose any more work has to wait until T3 gets its turn for a full refurb. I suppose the only other thing they could do is expand the floor with the lounges to create more of a food court and then leave downstairs for seating (or vice versa), but, that's just my suggestion and not an indication of what will happen.

-I don't suppose T1 could have much done to it given in the next few years some elements will start to be knocked down.

I have also heard more consultations are taking place with Border control about staffing, but an issue in both T1/T3 is not so much staffing, but space to expand so it's going to be a work in progress and therefore a like it or lump it situation for now, you can't just click your fingers and magic up more space, it needs to be planned and agreed.

[Ribble56]

200 disgruntled out of 27million, get real will ye!

[LAX_LHR]

I said 200 disgruntled social media and forum members. Obviously there will be more, but I'd still be surprised if that number exceeds 2-3% of the overall total.

[Ribble56]

810,000 OR 4,378 737-800s, blimey that many 3%

[LAX_LHR]

Yes exactly, even the tiny number of 3% complaining seems extortionately high, doesn't it, which is unlikely 810,000 people complained.

Let's just say even if 20,000 'complained'. In this context, I mean, wrote in, commented on a social media site, took part in a survey and scored it badly, EI, a written complaint of some sort. Even that is less that 0.1% of the total, which means 99.9% of those passengers using MAN didn't feel disgruntled enough to complain in any 'formal/written' manner. Yes people may 'talk' but how many in reality would carry out a vow 'never use it again' etc.

Doesn't this prove the point that the majority of people are either happy or at worst, 'so/so' about MAN, thus showing what people write in here is clearly a minority view? Clearly shows an exaggerated problem to me, in that we all know MAN isn't great but thus proving MAN obviously isn't as bad as being portrayed by some!

[ZOOKER]

But how many of the 'disgruntled masses' didn't bother to make their views known on the various internet portals?

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

MAN is obviously not perfect, in T1/3 (i.e. where most passengers are processed) the experience is poor.

The TP is late. Easy with hindsight, but it should have been performed several years previously. However, we are where we are and MAN is well placed to take advantage of new technology and distinguish its self from other UK regional airports. Whether the TP achieves this remains to be seen.

The reality of a modern day airport's business model is that most money is made by passengers parking their car, buying food and drink and shopping. I'd expect the TP to reflect that (whilst conforming to a very high standard of airport functionality) and if it achieves this it will do okay.

The second runway was obviously a good idea. It's a shame it's not a true independent runway, but it looks like good value.

[Logohu]

But how many of the 'disgruntled masses' didn't bother to make their views known on the various internet portals?


Oh for goodness sake....I mean really ? Lots probably, same as at any other UK airport, or airline, or train customers, or motorway users...or...or.... After all, moaning is a UK national pastime

Obviously been a very quiet news day the last week... :(

[mickyman]

No sptraveller its about realism and not exaggerating a perceived problem.
Context IS important - Everybody strives to be better but at the end of the day there are not many perfect situations and things go wrong - its called life.

Its just unfortunate that the same problems happen to the same people ALL
the time!

[LAX_LHR]

But how many of the 'disgruntled masses' didn't bother to make their views known on the various internet portals?

How many people went through Manchester, had a good experience but didn't bother to make their views known? Your asking a contextless question, one which has extremes at both ends.

Just like some on here have had a good moan, there have also been those who have had a reasonable to good experience, including 2 awards won. Whether you agree with those awards is irrelevant, as just like we accept some have a naff experience, you need to accept some have a good experience.

One thing with us humans, you are NEVER going to please 100% of the people 100% of the time, ever!

[MAN2SIN2BKK2FRA]

Look at the number of people that moan day in day out about the their experience at LHR and has that affected the number of passengers in any way?

[Skipness One Echo]

One thing with us humans, you are NEVER going to please 100% of the people 100% of the time, ever!
So perhaps you could stop defending MAN 100% of the time?

[LAX_LHR]

Witty, ill take part of your advice and just defend it 99.999% of the time then haha. I'll knock it 0.01% of the time too just so it's in line with trends...

[TURIN]

I can see this thread getting binned and blocked any minute.
Anybody got any actual news?
Here's one...American and United will both be operating 787s out of MAN next summer.

[jubilee]

Have been out of T2 a number of times this year, longest wait at security about 15 minutes. Problem seems to be only half the lanes are open, only returned into T2 on one
occasion came up the bridge and we were opposite passport control, no queue but had to do the full zig zag walk. Returned to T1 in late May again no queue. Returned on a number of times this year into T3 with Ryanair as their schedule on the return is better timed for us.

Returned this Tuesday evening at 11:20pm, no bags to wait for waited out side about two minutes to be picked up and arrived back in Glossop at 12:15am. so no complaints by me.

[mwm991]

So perhaps you could stop defending MAN 100% of the time?

Of course he is, that's what airport fan boys do!

[LAX_LHR]

Is UA confirmed yet? It looks like the flight has a time change starting 23rd March, only by 5 minutes but that's usually indicative of a further change due, usually EQV.

In terms of the debate, I agree, it's going nowhere, some people have it good, some bad, it's the same for every airport so it's best just left there.

[FFHKG]

The problem with this thread is that we have LAX_LHR as a totally committed supporter MAN who will hear “no ill” said about MAN, although his location is given as London!

He also clearly has daily access to one or more of the global distribution systems. He seems to have inside knowledge of new services, and is always ahead of the game when it comes to reporting these, even before many other feeds have had an opportunity to do so.

He claims to travel through MAN frequently, yet he never experiences the problems that many of us face. He is quick to rubbish negative comments about MAN, and now he fears the thread getting blocked because of honest and usually accurate reporting of the daily problems by many of those who unfortunately have no other than choice to travel through other airports.

My own experience of MAN over the last twelve months, as I have said before, is that it is the one airport that I travel through and that I always wish I could avoid.

[jubilee]

FFHKG.

LAX may be a supporter of Manchester, if you look at other airports on this site you will see they to have supporters of their local airport, nothing wrong with that.

I tend to travel out in the afternoons and return in the evenings suits me and the airport is quieter then. Look at all the departures firtst thing in the morning,that is when the airport is bursting at the seams, when god knows how many people are trying to go through security. When returning to Manchester at busy periods is it Manchesters fault not enough border control staff are on duty? Is it the airports fault baggage can some times take for ages to come through onto the belts?

The airport is going through change at the moment (should have started earlier) but lets wait for the results of these changes which I am sure will improve your airport experience.

LAX was hounded off another 'MAD' site do not lose him on this one, he is a good for advance info and his knowledge of Manchester if you disagree with him thats fine but no need to attack on a personal level.

I have a good idea who he/she works for, and going of past post by him/her I think
that he/she used to work at Manchester, and possibly has relations in Manchester.

[Logohu]

Moan Alert

Attention all moaners !! A sudden outbreak of moaning has just occurred on the Birmingham thread. Security queues, baggage delays, border force queues, poor planning, mismanagement, blah blah....all your favourite pet hates that apparently spoil your day (you know, the ones that apparently only ever happen at MAN) are all being discussed. Major opportunity for a right good moan, enough to keep any would be Victor Meldrew happily occupied for days. Fill your boots folks !!

Warning: those who think their world will end and the sky will fall in at the mere mention of the word "queue" may wish to avert their eyes and exercise extreme caution...

[ZOOKER]

I think there are many good points being made on here.

There are many who will simply accept mediocrity as being the norm, and sadly, mediocrity is not difficult to find.....Open a newspaper, turn on the radio, or fire up the idiot's lantern and it's there in shedloads.

It's not so much about 'moaning', but more of 'how has it got like this'?

There's a very old adage, taught early on during flying training.......'To fail to plan is to plan to fail'.

[MANFOD]

Is UA confirmed yet? It looks like the flight has a time change starting 23rd March, only by 5 minutes but that's usually indicative of a further change due, usually EQV. .

And personally that would be of greater interest than continuing the other debate. (Liked your humour Logohu).

Re UA, I was thinking it was anybody's guess as to whether our EWR service would be pulled, carry on as is, or upgraded to a wide body a/c. A 787 if it did happen would be excellent news.

[ETOPS]

Well I'm off to sunny Greece in the morning using Monarch from T2. I'm a regular at T3 but it's over a year since I've been through T2 and many years since flying with ZB.
I'm going with a completely open mind, will make I'm through security with plenty of time to spare and will "go with the flow" - if I can find a decent wifi signal I will let you know my thoughts.

[LAX_LHR]

The problem with this thread is that we have LAX_LHR as a totally committed supporter MAN who will hear “no ill” said about MAN, although his location is given as London!

He also clearly has daily access to one or more of the global distribution systems. He seems to have inside knowledge of new services, and is always ahead of the game when it comes to reporting these, even before many other feeds have had an opportunity to do so.

He claims to travel through MAN frequently, yet he never experiences the problems that many of us face. He is quick to rubbish negative comments about MAN, and now he fears the thread getting blocked because of honest and usually accurate reporting of the daily problems by many of those who unfortunately have no other than choice to travel through other airports.

My own experience of MAN over the last twelve months, as I have said before, is that it is the one airport that I travel through and that I always wish I could avoid.

So, let me get this straight.

Firstly you state I am a problem on this thread.

Then you state I actually have access to good info.

Then you raise a question over my honesty or true judgement despite transiting the airport, seemingly claiming I am not honest and will hear no ill or rubbish claims. I'm not trying to silence the doubters by calling for an end to the discussion, it's because judging by past threads, there is actually a real danger this thread will be locked. There is no conspiracy.

So, in your post of contradictions, either, I am a trusted source of good info as in paragraph 2, or totally making things up to defend MAN in paragraph 3? Which is it?

However, despite asking that question, maybe I should just say, let it go. Yes, I support MAN, yes I will defend it if I see fit, either get over it or put me on ignore. Your call, I'm not bothered either way.

[rkenyon]

I reckon I fly through MAN more than most of the fanboys/moaners on here. Normally depart on a Monday and return on a Thursday.

It certainly helps if you know what you're doing. Get your stuff ready, and make sure you remove everything electrical (all dodgy looking cables etc.). Otherwise, your stuff will end up on the wrong side of the conveyer and you'll be stuck behind 10 people who don't realise a bottle of water is classed as a liquid.

If I leave Urmston at 11:30am, I'm generally in the T3 Escape lounge by about midday.

Similarly, home to T1 lounge is around 30 minutes.

On the return (normally T1), it's sometimes a bit busy, but I've never had to wait more than 30 minutes. Although I originally moaned about the e-gates, they do seem to have speeded things up a lot.

Regular flyers just want to get to the airport, get on their flight and bugger off. Most of us will be happy enough with the MAN experience. The once or twice a year flyers may think a bit differently, but really, who cares about them? :)

My usual other airport is AMS. I've had some *really* bad experiences there, even with a Privium card.

[eggc]

LAX LHR is this threads best poster IMO. He is a MAN supporter, but is level headed and fair with his comments at the same time. Not sure why his ability to post info quickly needs special mention, I for one applaud his contribution.

[techair]

Has anyone got any information why all arrivals and departures are on 23L. Can't see anything blocking 23R from Signature car park?

[LAX_LHR]

Hole in 23R.

Few diversions to LPL and EK19 gone to BHX.

[techair]

Thanks for the info, hope the hot pour team are on shift!

[BHX5DME]

Nice to see two A388's on the deck at BHX

[LAX_LHR]

Hot pour team are always on shift, more holes than a collinder sometimes.

[ZOOKER]

I think most of us are supportive of Ringway, eggc, that's why we're here.

[Betablockeruk]

Few diversions to LPL and EK19 gone to BHX.

Would love to know what the fuel upload for EK19 is compared to LHR's EK3.

Sneeze at MAN and diverting is the norm. Long hold round Lambourne doesn't seem to phase anyone.

[j636]

I think the problem among people is is they feel MAN are not doing enough to address basic problems just letting them get worse and worse.

Yes the border control is not really an issue they can control but they can put pressure on those who can if queue's are excessive.

The airport control the capacity level per hour, a review of that with airlines might be a positive move and see what changes if any might benefit passengers, airlines and the airport in general etc.

[MANFOD]

Would love to know what the fuel upload for EK19 is compared to LHR's EK3.

Sneeze at MAN and diverting is the norm. Long hold round Lambourne doesn't seem to phase anyone.

Good point. Out of interest, does anyone know how many flights landed on 23L while 23R was closed and how many diverted? Incidents like last evening's highlight the significant benefits of R2 but also its limitations.

As for LHR, it's sometimes a couple of holds out in the North Sea, a few more over the coast before they even get to Lambourne!

[rkenyon]

I think the problem among people is is they feel MAN are not doing enough to address basic problems just letting them get worse and worse.

Yes the border control is not really an issue they can control but they can put pressure on those who can if queue's are excessive.

The airport control the capacity level per hour, a review of that with airlines might be a positive move and see what changes if any might benefit passengers, airlines and the airport in general etc.

With the current T2 works, it's going to get worse before it gets better. People will just have to live with remote gates for a couple of years.

As mentioned upthread, you hear about the times when the queues are very bad, but this is pretty rare IME.

The main issue I see is the traffic situation around T1 & T3. This could be avoided if the traffic wardens in T1 did their job and moved on the private hire (Uber and the like) drivers that sit in the T1 drop off bays waiting to pick people up.

T3 is a bit more difficult as the restrictions after the GLA incident have not been lifted.

[LAX_LHR]

Air Transat moving to an all A330 operation next summer.

As of now, there are no A310 scheduled past June.

Despite it being a declining market for a while, TS seems to be ever increasing, even if it is little by little. First winter got a boost, now Summer has a capacity increase too. Great to see.

[ETOPS]

I'm going with a completely open mind, will make I'm through security with plenty of time to spare and will "go with the flow" - if I can find a decent wifi signal I will let you know my thoughts.

Arrived in T2 at 11.45am yesterday. Fairly busy terminal and a queue at the Monarch branded check in desks. There seemed to be enough staff as we moved pretty steadily through the "snake" - a smart move by the ground staff saw the Hainan branded check in pressed into use after their last pax were processed. At security just after midday where again pretty busy. Moved steadily through the system but - the shouting and bawling by the security staff threatened to spoil things. How do they get that graceless tone in their voices? Lessons from Vancouver security needed - the Canadians are never less than polite and friendly MAG please note.
There is quite a bit of evidence of the TP construction getting started but, to be honest, not as bad as London Bridge Station etc.
Called to the downstairs temporary departure area at 13.10 and boarding commenced soon after - all handled in a business like manner and departed just + 10 mins due ATC.
Monarch were fine and the flight was uneventful as it should be.

So on the whole little to complain about and having "enjoyed" the delights of Lagos, Islamabad and Mumbai a lot to appreciate ...

[GEB74]

MOAN ALERT ON
Had a new reason to moan about MAN last week.......
As usual pre-booked into Multistorey Carpark (T1 this time).
After usual queue up the entry ramp, saw two tatty cones in front of barrier. NO signage or explanation.
Now - as a regular user, knew the way round this is to drive (sorry, painfully slowly queue) through the dropoff zone and enter the Multistorey via the back entrance barriers (adding to the dropoff zone delays)
Got in the Multistorey to find it was completely full (hence I guess the cones at the front stopping non-prebooked shortstayers)
I spent 15-20 minutes driving all round the levels trying to find a space - along with many other people as we kept repeatedly passing each other. Was about to dump the car in one of their "Premium Spaces" (only half full) and leave a snotty note on the dash, but got a space in the end.
Not a good impression when you "Pre-Book" a space only to find there is none.
Not good for the airport that I then had 20 minutes less to spend money in the Terminal.
Obvious questions:
Why no explanatory sign at the entrance to the carpark - How hard is it to put a sign saying carparks basically full and only available to pre-bookers?. Why is the IT sales systems availability of spaces runs so tight the situation even occurs?
Why can't they adjust the entrance to the dropoff area so it uses the left hand lane of the entry sliproad ramp and leave the right lane open for the multi-storey - Yes, I understand the roadway closest to the Terminal doors is closed for security reasons, but it should be possible to put up a steel blast wall to at least allow the droppoff zone to be filtered in from left hand lane only, so multi-storey bookers would not normally queue.
Before anyone asks the usual - Yes, I have emailed the Airport!
Just sums the airport up for me a lot nowadays. Too busy, poor planning, poor communication and underinvested.
MOAN ALERT OFF



For balance - Directed downstairs to Jet2 security area as upstairs was busy. Through in 15 minutes. Food in under 5 minutes, seat available. Boarding lounge fine, gate staff fine.

[LAX_LHR]

Some Virgin changes for next year:

1xB744 does MCO daily
1xB744 does MCO 5 weekly and LAS 2 weekly
1XB744 does JFK on Tue/Wed/Fri/Sun and ATL Mon/Thu/Sat
1xA333 does JFK on Mon/Thu/Sat and JFK Tue/Wed/Fri/Sun
1xA330 does SFO 3 weekly, BOS 2 weekly and BGI 2 weekly

Interesting to see a B744 on the New York and Atlanta run, but what's good that while the Upper class seats are down, overall seat capacity is up, in fact, it completely restores the weekly seat capacity lost by AA pulling the route, and actually adds a minimum of 149 seats per seek to the market.

The changes to Atlanta take place from 26th March, and JFK from 22nd May.

[Navpi]

Good to see some ACTUAL news about OUR UK Airports including Manchester.

[roverman]

Some Virgin changes for next year:

1xB744 does MCO daily
1xB744 does MCO 5 weekly and LAS 2 weekly
1XB744 does JFK on Tue/Wed/Fri/Sun and ATL Mon/Thu/Sat
1xA333 does JFK on Mon/Thu/Sun and JFK Tue/Wed/Fri/Sun
1xA330 does SFO 3 weekly, BOS 2 weekly and BGI 2 weekly

Interesting to see a B744 on the New York and Atlanta run, but what's good that while the Upper class seats are down, overall seat capacity is up, in fact, it completely restores the weekly seat capacity lost by AA pulling the route, and actually adds a minimum of 149 seats per seek to the market.

The changes to Atlanta take place from 26th March, and JFK from 22nd May.

Is there something wrong in the first A330 destinations, LAX?

A positive response by VS/DL to AA leaving the MAN-New York market, perhaps. I think the last time we saw a 747 regularly flying this route was the late 1980s with BA/BCAL going LGW-MAN-JFK.

[7griffinjack]

Is there something wrong in the first A330 destinations, LAX?



It looks like the Saturday rotation is incorrectly labelled as another Sunday rotation.

[Scottie Dog]

Manchester Statistics - August 2017 (Part 1)

Destinations that are either new (no passengers since my records started in January 2005), or have not been served for a number of years - if the latter then the month and year of the last service is shown.

No new routes to report

Three domestic statistics are currently missing from the CAA report for August.

Belfast City, Belfast International and Inverness are again missing from the initial monthly statistics for August.

Moving monthly and annual figures - based on CAA statistics

Monthly passengers - 3,165,031 + 7.9%
Annual Total- 18,972,653
Moving Annual Total - 27,493,488 + 11.6%

Monthly Movements - 19,948 + 4.8%
Moving Annual Movements - 195,422 + 10.6%

Manchester Statistics -August 2017 (Part 2)

Top 25 destinations - by passenger numbers

PALMA............................................. 134,269
ALICANTE......................................... 110,724
AMSTERDAM..................................... 93,846
DUBAI................................................ 89,852
DUBLIN.............................................. 86,998
MALAGA............................................ 85,602
TENERIFE (SURREINA SOFIA)............. 82,094
FARO.................................................. 75,785
ORLANDO.......................................... 63,063
IBIZA................................................... 61,575
PARIS (CHARLES DE GAULLE)............. 56,263
HEATHROW....................................... 55,815
BARCELONA....................................... 54,532
ARRICIFE............................................ 50,165
DALAMAN.......................................... 50,097
NEW YORK JFK................................... 43,441
ABU DHABI......................................... 42,573
PAPHOS.............................................. 41,637
HERAKLION........................................ 39,139
MAHON............................................. 36,439
CORFU................................................ 35,419
FRANKFURT........................................ 34,813
LAS PALMAS....................................... 33,757
DOHA................................................. 32,728
RHODES.............................................. 32,045

CAA statistics for August are provisional.

Manchester Statistics - August 2017 (Part 3)

Top 25 destinations with highest percentage increase.

Destination......................................Total Pax....Schedule Pax....Charter Pax....Percentage change
TOULOUSE.......................................... 7,863............. 7,863.................. 0.................... 220.02
BERLIN (SCHONEFELD)...................... 28,774.......... 28,774................... 0................... 161.92
CAGLIARI................................................ 240..................................... 240................... 155.32
MIKONOS............................................ 6,425............. 6,425................... 0.................. 139.47
HAMBURG........................................ 30,146........... 30,146.................. 0.................... 119.08
OPORTO............................................. 9,221............. 9,221................... 0.................... 115.39
BOSTON............................................ 10,449........... 10,449.................. 0.................... 115.35
SPLIT................................................. 14,384............ 12,291........... 7,219.................... 99.252
CUNAGUA........................................... 5,528............. 5,528................... 0.................... 98.492
OLBIA................................................. 6,252.............. 4,784.......... 1 ,468..................... 98.413
DUBROVNIK...................................... 20,294............ 20,294................. 0...................... 93.129
KRAKOW........................................... 13,802............ 13,802.................. 0..................... 90.425
ILHA DO SAL CAPE VERDE.................. 5,820............... 5,820................. 0..................... 85.883
HURGHADA........................................ 8,764.............. 8,764.................. 0.................... 81.074
SALONIKA......................................... 11,249.............. 7,848............ 3,401................... 69.362
CATANIA (FONTANAROSSA)............... 7,523.............. 6,068........... 1,455.................... 64.725
LOS ANGELES...................................... 7,694............... 7,694................. 0.................... 46.972
GDANSK.............................................. 4,636............... 4,636................. 0.................... 45.011
NEWQUAY......................................... 10,545............ 10,545................. 0.................... 44.769
BILBAO................................................ 7,288.............. 7,288.................. 0.................... 43,804
LISBON.............................................. 26,419............ 26,419................. 0..................... 43.621
GIBRALTAR........................................ 11,241............ 11,241................. 0..................... 43.435
BOA VISTA.......................................... 5,828............... 5,828................. 0..................... 41.732
PREVEZA............................................ 11,755.............. 8,335........... 3,420.................... 38.473
LAS VEGAS......................................... 17,061............. 17,061................ 0..................... 37.473

CAA statistics for August are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - August 2017 (Part 4)

Figures for the European and long haul destinations that I consider to be the main points for our connecting traffic.

Foreign_airport……..Total_Pax 2016……..Total Pax 2017……% change
VIENNA…………………. 10,007……….…………… 10,891……………….. +8.8338
BRUSSELS……………… 15,807……………………. 16,729……………….. +5.8329
BEIJING…………………… 9,287………………….… 12,117.………………. +30.473
PRAGUE………………… 11,886……………………. 13,942…….…………. +17.298
COPENHAGEN………. 29,356……………………. 27,987……………….. -4.663
HELSINKI………………... 9,711…………….……... 10,356……………….. +6.642
PARIS (CDG)…………… 53,366……………………. 56,293…………….... +5.4848
DUSSELDORF…………. 19,761………..………….. 23,715……………….. +20.009
FRANKFURT MAIN…. 38,613……………………. 34,813….…………….. -9.841
MUNICH………………… 30,469..…………………. 33,324………………… +2.8061
HONG KONG………….. 10,543….………………… 11,112 ……….……… +5.3969
KEFLAVIK………………….. 7,839……………………… 9,823………………… +25.309
DUBLIN…………………… 90,135……………………. 86,998………….……. -3.48
MILAN (MALPENSA).. 14,017……………………. 17,239……………….. +22.986
ROME (FIUMICINO).. 12,348..………………….. 12,806……………….. +3.7091
AMSTERDAM…………. 91,456…………………….. 93,846.……………... +2.6133
ISLAMABAD……………. 25,268..…………………… 15,409………………. -39.02
LISBON …………………… 18,395…………………….. 26,419………..…….. +43.621
DOHA…………………….. 33,989…………………….. 32,728………………. -3.71
JEDDAH……………………. 8,074………………………. 9,101……………….. +12.72
SINGAPORE……………. 10,450………………………. 7,715……………….. -26.17
MADRID…………………. 14,963…………………….. 15,240………………. +1.8512
STOCKHOLM (ARN)… 13,254…………………….. 17,467………………. +31.787
GENEVA…………………. 19,286…………………….. 21,052….………..... +9.1569
ZURICH……………………. 9,548……………………… 10,929………………. +14.464
ABU DHABI…………….. 44,633……………….……. 42,573…..…………. -4.615
DUBAI…………………….. 81,321.……………………. 89,852………………. +10.491
ATLANTA……………….. 13,577…….……………….. 12,960………………. -4.544
CHICAGO…..…………… 10,127…………………….. 10,418………………. -2.793
HOUSTON……………..………… 0………………………. 4,981………………. +0.00
NEW YORK (JFK)……… 38,119…………………….. 43,441………..……. +13.962
NEW YORK (NEWARK). 9,152………………………. 9,180………………. +0.3059
PHILADELPHIA………… 11,758……………………… 11,796……..………. +0.3232
HEATHROW……………. 58,179……………………… 55,815……………… -4.063

CAA statistics for August are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - August 2017 (Part 5)

Comparison of top 25 destinations - July 2007 versus July 2017

Foreign airport...........................August-07...........August-17
PALMA.............................................. 118,879................. 134,269
DALAMAN.......................................... 83,056.................. 50,097
MALAGA............................................ 74,337.................. 85,602
ALICANTE........................................... 71,168.................. 110,724
HEATHROW....................................... 71,142.................. 55,815
FARO.................................................. 63,529.................. 75,785
DUBLIN............................................... 61,398.................. 86,998
TENERIFE (SURREINA SOFIA)............. 56,374.................. 82,094
SANFORD.......................................... 50,775.................... 7,949
AMSTERDAM..................................... 50,751.................. 93,846
DUBAI................................................ 48,693.................. 89,852
IBIZA.................................................. 48,136.................. 61,575
LARNACA........................................... 46,059.................. 24,885
PAPHOS............................................. 44,084.................. 41,637
HERAKLION........................................ 42,332.................. 39,139
PARIS (CHARLES DE GAULLE)............. 43,298.................. 56,293
RHODES............................................. 36,712.................. 32,045
MAHON............................................. 36,455.................. 36,439
ORLANDO.......................................... 30,016.................. 53,840
ARRECIFE........................................... 33,933.................. 50,165
CORFU............................................... 33,761.................. 35,419
ZAKINTHOS........................................ 32,897.................. 29,337
BODRUM........................................... 31,547.................. 12,217
GATWICK........................................... 30,800.................. 0
FRANKFURT....................................... 30,733.................. 34,813

CAA are statistics for August are provisional.

[chinapattern]

Reported elsewhere the reason the 747 has been drafted in is due to overrunning A330 refits/maintenance.

[roverman]

It looks like the Saturday rotation is incorrectly labelled as another Sunday rotation.

I was thinking more that the JFK and the ATL route are split across one of the B744 and one of the A330s, just not sure which does which days.

[Logohu]

The EK22 to Dubai was cancelled this morning after a mouse was spotted on board. Naturally the A380 involved was the one with a special "United for Wildlife" animal livery adorning the fuselage :)
The aircraft now has to be fumigated and the uninvited guest awaits its fate - if it hasn't escaped already !

[Skipness One Echo]

On Virgin, is it correct that Cabin Crew are MAN based and cross qualified on both B744/A333? Does MAN also have a pilot base for both types or are they LHR/LGW based?

[LAX_LHR]

MAN is both a pilot and cabin crew base IIRC.

[Navpi]

On Virgin, is it correct that Cabin Crew are MAN based and cross qualified on both B744/A333? Does MAN also have a pilot base for both types or are they LHR/LGW based?

Virgin seem to be building quite a base at Manchester.

I'm not an analyst so have little idea about the industry but if Virgin can make it work why couldn't BA ?

It just seems odd.

[Betablockeruk]

Just a sign of things (not) to come.

LPL 50m rvr from 2235 resulted in 11 diversions away. 3 to NCL, 3 BHX, 2 LBA, 2 BRS and 1 (one) to the nearest airport MAN...

Copy & paste 'reasons for no diversions at MAN' article rewritten every year since the infamous KLM MD11 incident.

[ZOOKER]

Betablocker,

Do you have a link to details of the KLM MD11 incident, please?

Purely because it's one I haven't heard about.

[chaps1954]

Don`t bother starting it up again then Beteablocker

[MANFOD]

But the reasons for not accepting diversions since the KLM MD-11 incident decades ago have varied.

These allegedly include:
Failure to clear snow effectively one snowy winter which led to the no-divs notam for a couple of weeks.
No fuel available
Lack of parking stands
Problems with handling agents due staff shortages and refusal to work overtime.

I expect parking stands could be an issue this winter with the TP work, but as reported elsewhere, it was apparently a handling agent staff shortage situation that again restricted diversions last evening. I realise we have more flights of our own than the airfields that accepted diversions but presumably respective staffing levels should reflect that.

Personally, I just wish the airport and airlines could get it sorted. At busy times, it must affect the handling of our own flights.

[LAX_LHR]

The Pier build has officially begun:

http://i68.tinypic.com/mv25o3.jpg

[The96er]

I expect parking stands could be an issue this winter with the TP work, but as reported elsewhere, it was apparently a handling agent staff shortage situation that again restricted diversions last evening. I realise we have more flights of our own than the airfields that accepted diversions but presumably respective staffing levels should reflect that.

Personally, I just wish the airport and airlines could get it sorted. At busy times, it must affect the handling of our own flights.
MANFOD is offline Report Post Reply With Quote

There's currently one handling agent that are suffering from chronic under staffing that is affecting their ability to handle their own schedule let alone diverted flights.

[Betablockeruk]

Personally, I just wish the airport and airlines could get it sorted

Yep. We could write a book with that title :)

it = everything that an airport should be good at i.e. moving planes and moving passengers.

Anyway, did they not get a celeb MP type to dig the first hole?

[cornishsimon]

First time nqy-man has topped 10k a month from what I remember. Decent growth on this route

[Mr A Tis]

LPL 50m rvr from 2235 resulted in 11 diversions away. 3 to NCL, 3 BHX, 2 LBA, 2 BRS and 1 (one) to the nearest airport MAN

MAN struggles to handle it's own flights, without any others. Sadly, these days it's the only option MAN has-no divs.

[MANFOD]

That may well be the case as things stand but I hope MAN are not that complacent about the situation.

Good news about the extra VS capacity next summer on JFK & ATL whatever the reason. After all, they could have decided just to operate one or both of the routes less than daily.

[eggc]

Last count I did MAN had more or less as many based units as it has stands, nearly all full at night - I'm hardly surprised LPL divs went elsewhere at that time of night. The place is bulging at the seems with its own metal, diversions will be sent elsewhere for many years to come. I don't see the problem TBH, not MAN's job to leave spare stands incase LBA, LPL or anywhere else maybe fogbound.

[Navpi]

I can confirm 94 aircraft on the ground at 2200 last night.

[Skipness One Echo]

If we had a joined up transport policy then a degree of contingency planning would be required.
We don’t, therefore it’s not.

Even Edinburgh no longer has the ability to park business jets for long as they closed the GAT. On occasion, business traffic for Edinburgh drops off passengers at EDI then positions out to GLA for parking only to return later. Hardly green or best practice but airport privatisation and shareholders needing ROI comes at a price.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

First time nqy-man has topped 10k a month from what I remember. Decent growth on this route

That is a relatively under the radar success story. I wonder if it is O&D traffic or transfer traffic (which could be short or long haul) using the route?

[sparkysam]

Travelled out of Man to YYJ via KEF and SEA absolutely no problems at Man. KEF very busy with transfer traffic and undergoing some building work. Returned on Monday on TCX from SFO again no problem and from deplaning to getting home in Stockport 80 minutes. The A330 carried 304 passengers and 13 crew with about 30 people transferring to flights to Frankfurt and Milan Cheers Sam

[cornishsimon]

NQY-MAN is a bit of everything from personal observation on the route.

Plenty of flybe U.K./euro transfers
Plenty of MAN/NQY terminating traffic
Decent amount of onward longhaul connections with plenty of codeshare customers checking in at NQY

However. As said. This is a successful route, ideally it could further increase with the use of NQY based equipment with an early AM departure

[Betablockeruk]

Manchester Airport sets out on community engagement over plans to extend dual-runway operation hours | Knutsford Guardian (http://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk/news/15559175.Manchester_Airport_sets_out_on_community_engagement _over_plans_to_extend_dual_runway_operation_hours/)

From summer 2018, it is proposed that DRO will be active from 6am to 9pm Monday to Friday, 6am to 4pm on Saturdays, and 6am to 9.30am and 1pm to 9pm on Sundays.

Runway 1 and Runway 2? Does that mean 02/20 is Runway 3 :}

[FFMAN]

Those new runway times make much more sense. I've been waiting at the hold of 23R for over 20 minutes late morning when they go back to single runway ops.
Also - a question - isn't the old runway 02/20 more or less the taxiway that runs past the new control tower towards Terminal 2?

[Betablockeruk]

Taxiway C. I'm sure I remember a Cessna landing on it in the early 80's but that doesn't match with when it was closed. Probably "I was very very drunk at the time".

[Scottie Dog]

You must have been very drunk!!:=

10/28 was the last runway to close and I remember using it frequently (if only as a passenger in either a Cherokee or Tomahawk.

[Porky Speedpig]

Because BA were not interested, they have brought into this London is England philosophy and that the rest of the Country is irrelevant.

Could you imagine them lowering themselves to the depths required to fly Northern inbreds around.:ugh:

You might want to look at the relative profitability of IAG and Virgin. IAG will pursue any business they think will produce an acceptable rate of return on assets employed.

[LAX_LHR]

Easyjet increasing from 12 to 13 aircraft next summer going off current schedules.

[ZOOKER]

The last aircraft to use R/W 28 was a C172, G-AZTS.

Late 1980s, or possibly early '90s.

[Betablockeruk]

Ryanair just announced "it will slow its growth this winter (Nov 17 to Mar 18), by flying 25 less aircraft (of its 400 fleet) from November, and 10 fewer aircraft (of 445) from April 2018" but Manchester unaffected.

[LAX_LHR]

MAN is affected in some ways, as an example, Madrid reduces from daily to 6 weekly with no Sunday flight this winter.

Not checked other routes but I doubt MAD is the only one.

[roverman]

The last aircraft to use R/W 28 was a C172, G-AZTS.

Late 1980s, or possibly early '90s.

Runway 10/28 officially closed in 1979. The major refurbishment and re-profiling on 06/24 in 1979/80 resulted in a pronounced hump in the cross-runway. There were however a few unlicensed operations on 10/28 up until about 1990, for instance a light aircraft outside crosswind limits on 06/24 but needing to land urgently, or a historic aircraft special event.

02/20 closed in the early 1970s when the building of Pier C effectively lay on the extended centreline and it was needed primarily as a taxiway to serve the new pier and due to increasing traffic.

[eggc]

I can confirm 94 aircraft on the ground at 2200 last night.

...and many many EZY / RYR / EXS / MON still to return. Like I said, MAN is completely full from 1am until 6am - I doubt there is a spare stand. There are many other airports that can accommodate diversions easily, and that is where they will go. There are things to moan about at MAN right now, but turning away diversions from a full airport really isn't one of them.

[ZOOKER]

Hopefully though eggc, they will never turn 'emergencies' away.

And roverman, you're spot on about the unlicensed movement of G-AZTS. I was the air controller who issued the 'Land at your discretion' clearance, (after liaising with 'OPS 3', obviously). W/V was about 310/30kts, and 'TS stopped well before the 06/24 10/28 intersection. The pilot was very grateful too.

[DomyDom]

Arrived back from Larnaca on a full Thomson Dreamliner into T2 on Sunday night about 20:15. Everything went smoothly, the moving escalators working and passport control a dream. A 20 minute wait for cases but that's hardly the airports fault and the wait was probably felt long due to how quickly we went through passport control. I must admit it the experience was better than I've seen it for a while.

[ZOOKER]

Oh, and I love the Knutsford Guardian article.

Notice that it's always "An Airport Spokesman"who says.........

Why haven't any of the folks who work there got the courage to add their names to this stuff. It's the same with press articles about local councils. Same thing really.

And I love the statement...."Depending on where you live there may be no change, or less or more aircraft".

If, "Our business is growing"........How on Earth can there be less aircraft?........A380s to the Med'?

[DP.]

That is a relatively under the radar success story.

I've flown the MAN-NQY route a couple of times this year, and I've found it a really good experience - decent aircraft, competitive fares, and an easy experience both ways at NQY.


Notice that it's always "An Airport Spokesman"who says.........

Why haven't any of the folks who work there got the courage to add their names to this stuff. It's the same with press articles about local councils. Same thing really.


It's an operational decision taken by the airport management. What does it matter whether or not whichever relatively lowly comms person responsible for sending out the statement on their behalf puts their name on it?

[ZOOKER]

It matters greatly DP.

Too many big buisnesses hide behind the 'cloak of anonymity' today.

[Armodeen]

Obviously the statement doesn't mean less aircraft in general, but about altering the distribution of traffic throughout the day. This could lead to a scenario where by depending on where you live you could see more, less or similar traffic levels. If you live off the centreline of 23R I'd imagine you will see less.

[gazza007]

Perhaps its now time to build the planned full length taxiway for 23L/06R before growth gets too big and it becomes a PITA like the current TP

[FFMAN]

It matters greatly DP.

Too many big buisnesses hide behind the 'cloak of anonymity' today.

I think you mentioned earlier you were an ATCO? Would you greet a pilot with your name on handover? No - because you represent the organization you work for in that context.

Also why should a (probably) underpaid office worker in MAG House add their name to corporate pronouncements opening themselves up to the abuse that is all too readily dished out under that same cloak of anonymity?

[FFMAN]

Could not agree more but it would not be an easy job as the Southern tunnel would need to be extended I suspect. ok:

Indeed - two tunnels would have to become three tunnels. Expensive and therefore the Benefit Cost Ratio would probably be negative.

[MANFOD]

Ryanair:

It would seem MAN is losing 19 departures a week over the winter with the latest cancellations. How the original schedules for winter 17/18 compared to last winter I'm not sure.

The cancellations are frequency reductions on predominantly "city" type routes.
For example, CRL, BCN, and BGY are losing flights on some days when there were second rotations. However, HAM is reduced to 3 x weekly instead of daily and there are weekly frequency reductions to Madrid, Rome and 2 weekly services to Lisbon.

It's disappointing, especially as LPL & LBA appear to have no cancellations and BHX only the odd DUB rotation. I don't know exactly how many weekly departures Ryanair were originally scheduling from MAN this winter but I would guess 19 represents at least 7%, possibly more, and something like 150,000 seats from Nov to 24 March.

[AndrewH52]

Seems to pretty much equate to a reduction of one aircraft for the winter?

[MANFOD]

Probably so compared to what was originally planned. However, I think CGN & FRA are new routes this winter, so it may not be a reduction from last year.

[Logohu]

MANFOD
Agree disappointing, but at least no routes lost. With CAA applying pressure on RYR to "look after" its displaced passengers a little better, perhaps the fact that MAN has alternatives to all of those cities is a factor ? I'm sure the likes of Eurowings, SN, Vueling, IB Express, Jet2, Easyjet, TAP and others will gratefully pick up any slack over the winter months

[ZOOKER]

FFMAN,

Apologies for the delay in replying. I think ATC and Public Relations are very different animals. It is also doubtful that an "underpaid office worker in MAG House" would be tasked with communicating with the press.

It seems to me that at the present time those in 'MAG House' have, (sadly), a degree of contempt toward their customers. their staff, and those living in earshot of the airport, which mirrors that shown by councils towards their rate-payers.

[ETOPS]

Not much to add in part 2 of my "in depth" report.

Arrived last night at 11.30pm at gate 209 to find Swissport ready to receive us. short walk to the Border where all pax were directed to the E-Gates. Only 5 units in operation so around 10 minutes to get through. Bags arrived within 5 mins of getting to the carousel so into a taxi and home exactly one hour after leaving the aircraft.

More to the point - I must congratulate the Monarch crew last night for a highly professional job well done. A smooth ontime flight delivered without fuss or drama - very friendly cabin crew who kept smiling all despite the imminent news they must be dreading........

Well done ZB and good luck :D

[Skipness One Echo]

What’s the % increase per hour with the current two runway layout versus one?
MAN has a huge overnight based fleer which causes enormous peaks and troughs throughout the day.

[GavinC]

so what are people's thoughts on the impact at MAN of Monarch collapsing?

[Ribble56]

I'm sure those employees about to lose their jobs couldn't give a **** at this time about any impact on Manchester.

[daz211]

I'm sure those employees about to lose their jobs couldn't give a **** at this time about any impact on Manchester.

I understand you maybe upset and concerned for the employees of Monarch but please understand this is a aviation forum people have the right to ask reasonable questions regarding anything aviation.
From your response to to this question I get the feeling you would rather not have any conversation regarding Monarch however I don't feel the question asked was in away misplaced if anything it's quite a reasonable question

Yes it's sad news regarding Monarch but there are millions of questions to be answered and people should be free to ask them.

[AirportPlanner1]

I'm sure those employees about to lose their jobs couldn't give a **** at this time about any impact on Manchester.

I'm sure they do give a **** unless they aren't interested in future employment in the area

[Ribble56]

I feel the question was insensitive at this time.

[daz211]

In no way was it an insensitive question this is an aviation forum not a funeral parlour where we might upset someone if we are heard whispering about the dead we all feel for our friend at Monarch but I'm sure at some point we have all been there and if not we all live with the possibility of the same thing happening to us we are all adults and are free to ask questions that are on our minds
Again it's a sad loss and I'm sure we all feel for everyone at Monarch but we must carry on.

[chaps1954]

I have to agree with daz on this as the guys and gals will all be looking for employment and
will want to know what the other operators are planning, I am sure that the other airlines will be working very hard to try and maximise their own business out of the loss of someone else misfortune but that is business and life.
I do feel for anybody loosing their job as it is stressfull and not nice

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

And I will come out in defence of Ribble, if only because it's too soon. They have literally woken up to the news that their income has gone, their last few weeks wages probably won't get paid and they'll be entitled to very little statutory redundancy pay from the Government.

[IB4138]

......and Christmas with it's extra family expense is less than three months away.

[GavinC]

British Airways parent targets Monarch assets as airline ceases operations (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/british-airways-parent-targets-monarch-assets-airline-ceases-operations-1641488)



For Vueling? Presume Easyjet would have interest too.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

I assume any IAG interest would be cherry picking rather than as a TOGC.

Slots at LGW for BA? Slots at MAN for Vueling?

A320/321 for any one of a number of IAG brands.

Pilots and crew to operate them (certainly if LGW based).

[01475]

Well, we know it's no longer as a going concern!

I imagine a lot of people will be interested in different bits of it.

I'm still secretly surprised easyJet didn't want it. Luton, Gatwick, Airbus, ... it seemed like a good fit.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Maybe they just want the bits that make money - hence the cherry picking!!

[Betablockeruk]

Thomas Cook and Air Transat have signed a winter/summer exchange program that will see TCX A321s serve Canadian winter holiday destinations. Air Transat will transfer 1 A330 to TXC for Summer.

Not a new concept but good use of resources and frees up parking spaces.

(bit of a nightmare for the spotters keeping track of winter only C- regs) :}

[Navpi]

Given the impact of The Monarch debacle I make no excuses for sub copying this analysis here.

PPrune deserves this kind of forensic analysis.

In the aftermath of the tragic collapse of Monarch Airlines, Manchester Airport and the airlines serving it face a number of crucial decisions going forward. Minds will have been exercised in airline and airport boardrooms across the country (and beyond) as strategic plans are put into action in response to this crisis.

Of course, the business world is ruthless and unforgiving. Crisis for one company spells major opportunity for others. Court Line, Intasun / Air Europe, Globespan, XL Group, BMI Baby ... the demise of all these brands spelt heartbreak for their employees but a chance for surviving companies to grow and prosper in the vacuum left behind. Now it is Monarch's turn to exit the stage and make way for the next generation of success.

So, what does all this mean from a Manchester Airport perspective? Monarch's based fleet consisted of 7 x A321 and 2 x A320. All nine aircraft flew intensively, and generally with high load factors. So at face value, Manchester ideally needs to replace nine based units and around 1.5 million passengers per year. How realistic is this? On the plus side, Monarch had very few unduplicated MAN routes. Zagreb and Verona spring to mind ... both my recent Zagreb flights were packed, so maybe an opportunity for someone like EasyJet there? And Verona ... Lake Garda will never go out of fashion.

Well, first we have to acknowledge some really tough home truths. There is a very good reason why Monarch Airlines failed. Angry people will call out management failings and Greybull Capital, but the reality is that Monarch had become a business which couldn't limp on without regular infusions of fresh cash to burn. It's been rinse and repeat for years now. Monarch had become a "me too" player in the UK short-haul leisure market, a battleground littered with overcapacity and uneconomic yields. Many of Monarch's competitors enjoyed advantages which they didn't share: lower operating costs, more diverse networks, less exposure to the Med. Monarch had little room to manoeuvre into new markets and no pricing power to charge economic fares on it's core routes. Every option open to them meant bleeding more red ink. This sad ending had become inevitable. If anything, the biggest surprise is that Greybull put up more money at ATOL-renewal time twelve months ago. The truth is we had a bonus year out of Monarch Airlines. And Greybull - to their credit - threw alot of money into providing that lifeline. They tried to put a viable deal together during that reprieve year. But it just proved too big an ask.

Meanwhile, both Norwegian International and Vueling Airlines muscled into these same crowded markets from MAN. And around a year later promptly withdrew again. That is very telling about the state of the market. These two couldn't make Manchester to the Med resorts work either. The margins aren't there. Vueling has now retrenched to its daily service between MAN and its hub at BCN. Norwegian is back on the Scandinavian routes. Monarch tell us that in 2017 they flew 14% more passengers but took £100m less in fares. Losses were estimated at £60m for 2017, with projections showing that the loss would rise to £100m in 2018. The show couldn't go on.

In the light of the above, one thing is very clear. The market from Manchester to the Med resorts is likely to support significantly fewer seats going forward. Yes, we can point to high load factors, but it is yield which really matters. The question now is where is the equilibrium between two key numbers: total 2017 Manchester short-haul leisure capacity, and that number minus the programmes of Monarch, Norwegian and Vueling. I don't expect to see all of that shortfall made good, but hopefully some of it can be.

Who are the key players left behind in this market segment? I would say principally Jet2.com, EasyJet, Ryanair, Thomas Cook, TUI UK (Thomson). And there is a case for including IAG as well. But how much will each contribute to filling the void ... it is in nobody's interests to swamp the market again. Higher fares will be the goal.

Unfortunately, the answer isn't a simple one. There are complicating factors beyond the obvious which will restrict the response of some of these carriers. Yes, attractive slots and overnight aircraft parking positions have just come free at MAN. So run in there and make your land-grab, right? But it isn't so straightforward. Similar slots have just come free at LGW (big draw!), LTN and BHX. But for companies like EasyJet, Ryanair and IAG these are not the only selection boxes which have suddenly been flung open. They must also consider Dusseldorf and Berlin Tegel (Air Berlin legacy), Roma Fiumicino and Milano Linate (Alitalia). Bagging those slots is really attractive too. With GBP/EUR exchange rates, those continental slots could be seen as a better short-term bet by some. And unfortunately, carriers can't just magic up more aeroplanes to fill these slots. They have a finite pool and must disperse their fleets wisely.

But perhaps it is Manchester Airport itself which throws up the biggest roadblock of all. Monarch Airlines operated out of Terminal 2. And that is where the new vacancies have arisen. Now that is a major headache for most. The exception is TUI Airlines UK (Thomson). Should they opt to add a frame or two at MAN they're well placed to do so. It should be no problem for them as a T2 incumbent. But TUI is a notoriously cautious company anyway ... we'd probably see only very modest expansion from them, and they (TUI) are also amongst the best placed to soak up former Air Berlin opportunities in their native Germany. Our other likely players are Ryanair in T3, and EasyJet, Jet2.com and Thomas Cook over in T1. And therein lies a huge problem.

Ryanair loves it's T3 home at MAN. Even though they're bulked out at nine based aircraft. They can't just add frames at T3, and it seems inconceivable that they'd go for a split-terminal operation. They could very easily be physically unable to grow at MAN. And in that case the news could get worse for MAN: their route to expanding on core leisure routes such as AGP, PMI, ALC, FAO etc. could be to swap out more niche routes to other airports such as LPL, LBA and EMA. MAG's enduring failure to address the Ryanair T3 squeeze really risks coming back to bite here.

Over at T1 the picture isn't much better. EasyJet, Jet2 and Thomas Cook go a long way to bulking out that terminal as well. They can't just add unlimited frames even if they wanted to. In an ideal world, MAG would persuade one of these 'Big 3' to switch across to T2. But who will be up for that? Especially during the earliest phases of TP disruption. Would any of them consider a short-term split-terminal operation until 'TP Pier 1' is completed? Thomas Cook appears out of the question ... they need T1's widebody stands. An EasyJet switch would be physically doable, but I'm not sure that the airline would perceive any advantage to them in this. Pier B stands suit their needs well. Jet2 enjoys almost bespoke facilities in T1 with their own check-in and security hall. But their extensive use of remote parking makes them the best possibility of accepting some kind of short-term flexible arrangement using bussing etc. And my guess is that Jet 2, probably the most directly advantaged by Monarch's sad plight, would be the company most likely to expand capacity. They also don't have the distraction of managing bases in Germany and Italy etc.

So, as we see, issues such as distribution of carriers by terminal will also have a major role to play in the recovery at MAN. Other wildcards could include the response from IAG. They have been looking to expand the niche CityFlyer E190 programme. And we shouldn't absolutely rule out the possibility of the Vueling brand trying again, although they may not be keen after a difficult 2017 season in the Manchester short-haul leisure bunfight eg Forums4 Airports. However, the one glimmer of hope here is that an entrant such as Vueling (or even Norwegian) could be told you get the slots and the overnight parking positions if you're prepared to switch to T2.

There will be lots more to wrap our heads around as all this unfolds. But consider some other silver linings (from the point of view of the competition). Thomas Cook and Virgin have just sidestepped the planned advent of a new no-frills North Atlantic challenger in Monarch Mk2. They must be privately jubilant. But the loudest cheers must surely be coming from Primera Air who have seemingly dodged a bullet (or a cannonball?) at BHX. Forums4Airports.

Meanwhile, the one bit of good news which we do have is that Monarch Airlines Engineering Limited (MAEL) survives. A high quality operation accounting for many skilled jobs. They shouldn't be a difficult asset to sell. Good luck to all involved with them going forward.

Observations and discussions welcome.

[southside bobby]

Navpi.....Flawed analysis regarding management & Greybull Capital...
As to other analysis put forward & attempting not to appear callous,with the demise all the cards are up in the air now with regard not only use of terminals at MAN as you argue but also a bigger picture with possible "churn" around a number of airports.
Business tho has a great habit of eventual self remedy & settling down to a or the new staus quo..All will be only hypothesis for now..
The main asset in the mix at the present time which airline groups are interested are the flight deck crews..

[j636]

Will they get Easyjet into T2?

[Navpi]

Flawed analysis regarding management & Greybull Capital.

Can you elaborate ?

[Manchester Exile]

Bagso posts something written by Shed-On-A-Pole!

[Navpi]

Did Air Arabia start this week as scheduled. It was lost in the snowstorm that was Monarch I understand they were looking at STN as well so possibly a tie up with MAG?

[chaps1954]

Yes it did start Navpi

[southside bobby]

Navpi....without the debate,witness credible news reporting out there concerning the CEO & Greybull Capital before & since the collapse & what logically was evident before that event.
BTW to be honest the analysis is summed up anyways by the answer on link 151 perhaps..

[Navpi]

Was just curious. Very sad all the same!

[MKY661]

Will this also mean the forward fuselage of G-DMCA will now be heading it's way out? Or is this owned by the Aviation Viewing Park?

[LAX_LHR]

I think that's owned my MAN anyway. Might be repainted at worst? It is painted in a scheme it never wore anyway.

[Betablockeruk]

Jet2 news from Friday:

Manchester Airport:

Over 350,000 additional seats put on sale this week
45,000 additional winter seats with more flights and holidays popular winter sun destinations, including: Alicante, Faro, Fuerteventura, Lanzarote, Malaga and Tenerife

Over 300,000 additional summer seats with more summer flights and holidays to Alicante, Antalya, Barcelona, Dalaman, Faro, Ibiza, Lanzarote, Malaga, Menorca, Majorca and Rhodes.

Two additional aircraft added to the fleet for Summer 18

Not sure if they are preempting a slots auction as momentum gathers on selling off this asset:

Administrators KPMG have faced questions over whether it is permitted to sell the slots as it begins to try and recoup cash for creditors, or if they should be returned to a slot pool and allocated by Airport Coordination Limited. A spokesman for KPMG said: “The legal advice the administrators have received is that they can sell the slots. “We are now trying to establish the process at which we will sell them.”
Read more: Jet2, Norwegian Air Shuttle and easyJet vie for Monarch´s airport slots | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-4955974/Jet2-Norwegian-Air-Shuttle-easyJet-vie-Monarch-s-airport-slots.html#ixzz4v09fkVJo)
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[LAX_LHR]

And with Easyjet saying they want to go after the Monarch slots at Manchester specifically to become the largest airline at MAN, makes you wonder what they have planned.....

[Plane.Silly]

And with Easyjet saying they want to go after the Monarch slots at Manchester specifically to become the largest airline at MAN, makes you wonder what they have planned.....

With Jet2's 300k seat expansion and 2 extra aircraft as well for S18, i'm sure they'll be after those slots as well.

[EastMids]

Not sure if they are preempting a slots auction as momentum gathers on selling off this asset:

Interesting conundrum with respect to the future of the slots.

IATA Worldwide Slot Guidelines:

8.16
SLOTS OF AN AIRLINE THAT LOSES ITS OPERATING LICENSE
8.16.1 Slots can only be held by an airline with a valid operating license. If an airline ceases to hold a valid operating license, its slots revert to the slot pool.
8.16.2 In the case of bankruptcy (or similar proceedings), the representatives of the airline should enter into dialogue with the coordinators to discuss their future intentions for the slots and provide the contact details of the administrator.
8.16.3 The slots may be reserved by the coordinator pending reinstatement of the airline’s operating license or a formal takeover of the airline’s activities. The airline, its legal representatives, or the responsible licensing authority should keep the coordinator informed of the airline’s status.
8.16.4 If dialogue has not been initiated within a reasonable deadline set by the coordinator, and if there is no legal protection linked to bankruptcy under national law, then the coordinator should reallocate the slots.

[LAX_LHR]

In terms of MAN, I don't think we are talking about bidding for the slots in a financial sense, but bidding for them in a 'they are now vacant and I want them' sense.

[Betablockeruk]

https://www.ft.com/content/18c96d94-a9ed-11e7-93c5-648314d2c72c

This may drag on if it gets legal and may well effect any airports attempt to make up the difference in pax numbers.

[LAX_LHR]

While that queue looks bad, still have to question the agenda and authenticity here.

Unless the queue was at a complete standstill for a very large period of time, T3 pysically doesn't have the space/corridor length to queue for 4 hours. The queue would literally be on the runway if that was the case, as the corridor is only about 350m long at most.

Also, despite the claims of 'passengers said they had been queuing for 4 hours', the article only featured one testimonial where the person claimed to be waiting for 90 minutes.

Now, before people jump down my neck calling me a 'MAN apologist', 90 minutes is crap and that definately needs to be addressed. Given 7 Ryanair aircraft must arrive at a similar time most of the days, something has clearly gone wrong for it to not be able to process the volume as quickly. However, 4 hours queuing, I think someone has exaggerated the truth a little there.

[LAX_LHR]

Onto other news,

Looks like Jet2 will have 18 aircraft in operation at MAN next summer, with one standby making 19.

42 routes with 482 weekly flights.

Palma has 5 flights on a Saturday now, with A330 usage, so, that's some serious capacity there now. Couldn't tell if a 2nd A330 has been loaded yet as the process to check seat plans is a bit labourious.

There are gaps in the schedule too which could easily accommodate a new route or 2. Bergerac and Verona are new for S18. Toulouse is dropped.

[Armodeen]

Nooo not Toulouse, FlyBe will scalp the life out of us now ;)

[Betablockeruk]

Airlineroute‏ @Airlineroute 3m 3 minutes ago
Pakistan International has closed New York JFK bookings including flights from 14OCT17, however there is no confirmed cancellation date
Credit routesonline.

I lose track, but this affects Manchester's stopovers (?)

[canberra97]

I'm under the impression that it will only affect two outbound JFK flights from Manchester as the inbound flights from JFK to Islamabad went non stop.

Islamabad to Manchester is currently 6 days a week an increase from the previous 5 flights a week.

[LAX_LHR]

Islamabad also going back to daily soon too. It had been daily earlier this year but seemed to have dropped to 5 weekly somewhere over the course of the year.

[Betablockeruk]

Quote:
Airlineroute‏ @Airlineroute 3m 3 minutes ago
Pakistan International has closed New York JFK bookings including flights from 14OCT17, however there is no confirmed cancellation date
Credit routesonline.

I lose track, but this affects Manchester's stopovers (?)

By all accounts, PIA schedulers are 'losing track' and the schedule keeps appearing beyond 14 Oct, now and again.....

[LAX_LHR]

http://mag-umbraco-media-live.s3.amazonaws.com/1001/september-2017.xlsx

2.876 million for Sept. Up 7.4%

27.7 million for the year now.

Octobers stats will be interesting to say the least.

[j636]

Considering growth has been around 6% or above all year I think October should still manage an increase overall but probally less than 2%.

Annually ZB carry bones of million pax or am I under estimating it?

[LAX_LHR]

Monarch had a declared seat capacity of just over 750,000 seats this winter according to ACL.

Now, we know not all of those seats will have been filled, but if we work on an average load factor of 85% (a realistic figure), then that's a loss of 637,500 passengers. Monarch had less of a seasonal variation than some other carriers at MAN, so x2 that's a loss of 1.2million pax.

Jet2 have added 300,000 seats next summer, TUI about 100,000 and Thomas Cook will probably be around 100,000 pax themselves. Easyjet will have at least one extra aircraft next summer, possibly 3 so we can say that's between 100,000-250,000 of extra pax.

Then add in all the other increases such as Cathay going daily, Oman Air still adding into the pax figure until May, Virgin adding 40,000 seats, Air Arabia Maroc, Powedair and such, that's potentially another 100,000. So, we are looking at 800,000 seats.

However, we also have the Loss of Norwegian sun routes, vueling ALC/TFS/FCO and no doubt other little losses over time, then that's probably about 100,000 lost.

Therefore, I fear MAN may start entering the negative territory, unless something is pulled out of the bag, to which I'm hearing rumours there may be something in the offing, but, no concrete rumours.

[gojmc]

Any ideas on the new Ezy routes?

[LAX_LHR]

I've been told some but as there is no concrete proof just yet, I'll leave it for a while.

[canberra97]

LAX LHR

'Oman still adding into the pax figure until May'

Are Oman leaving Manchester in May then?

[LAX_LHR]

No still going. But what I mean is Muscat will always be a gain in pax until May, as that's when they started last year. After May, there may be increases but not in larger numbers.

[canberra97]

I got you now thanks for clarifying that.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Car on fire outside of T3

[LAX_LHR]

Looks like it's actually at the bottom of the ramp to T1 drop off.

[AndrewH52]

Monarch had a declared seat capacity of just over 750,000 seats this winter according to ACL.

Now, we know not all of those seats will have been filled, but if we work on an average load factor of 85% (a realistic figure), then that's a loss of 637,500 passengers. Monarch had less of a seasonal variation than some other carriers at MAN, so x2 that's a loss of 1.2million pax.

Jet2 have added 300,000 seats next summer, TUI about 100,000 and Thomas Cook will probably be around 100,000 pax themselves. Easyjet will have at least one extra aircraft next summer, possibly 3 so we can say that's between 100,000-250,000 of extra pax.

Then add in all the other increases such as Cathay going daily, Oman Air still adding into the pax figure until May, Virgin adding 40,000 seats, Air Arabia Maroc, Powedair and such, that's potentially another 100,000. So, we are looking at 800,000 seats.

However, we also have the Loss of Norwegian sun routes, vueling ALC/TFS/FCO and no doubt other little losses over time, then that's probably about 100,000 lost.

Therefore, I fear MAN may start entering the negative territory, unless something is pulled out of the bag, to which I'm hearing rumours there may be something in the offing, but, no concrete rumours.

You also need to factor in the planned Ryanair reductions for the winter too.

[eggc]

MON customers will not just stay at home because MON has gone !

Jet2, TUI, TCX, EZY, RYR etc will just mop most of them up.

I'd expect MAN to at least hold its own despite the sad loss of MON.

[southside bobby]

Fascinating....sounds a re adoption of MON`s very own type of business logic..

[eggc]

So MON's customers will just stay at home ? Maybe sample Skegness for a week instead ;)

[FFMAN]

With respect - it's not that simple
Mrs FFMAN and myself along with 4 friends were booked on a MON flight in November. After the sad demise of MON, we looked at alternatives. The best was Easyjet at £526 pp against the £180 pp from MON. We have all decided to put it down to experience and not bother this time.
It's not so much the money - it's the principle.

So no doubt some will fly other airlines but many won't. MON was offering very good deals (we now know why) that were incentives to travel where perhaps people might not have bothered previously.
Plenty won't bother now

[inOban]

MON were forecasting even bigger losses next year, which suggests to me that forward bookings were poor. I think that there would have been considerable surplus capacity next year, and there will be no need to replace all the lost rotations, except of course for routes not served by another airline.

[SQ380]

100% agree with FFMAN if you're due to be flying over the coming days/next few weeks with Monarch then there's a lot of people who aren't going to travel simple fact as FFMAN has already shown Easyjet/Ryanair and all the other major airlines UK and non UK have put there prices up sky high all jumped in and said hey easy money to make here supply is down demand is up we have all these people needing to get home now lets charge them arm and leg they will pay it or either customer will be stranded abroad or they don't travel, and remember think it's only 5% of Monarch business was package holidays rest were mainly flight only, now what other airlines are mainly based on flight only booking (ie not package holidays) yes that's right Easyjet/Ryanair and co and remember most people who booked with Monarch on flight only are not ATOL protected and many will not get there money back
Now next summer and beyond yes people who travelled with Monarch are obviously going to book with a different tour operator/airline and yes tui/Thomas cook/ easjet/Norwegian/ryan air etc are all going to benefit you have one less competitor

[MKY661]

Looks like there are no more MON repatriation flights from MAN, all seem to be either going via another airport or they are putting passengers on other airlines.

[Scottie Dog]

DUAL RUNWAY OPERATIONS

I was just looking through the ACL Summer 2018 Capacity Declaration for Manchester and see, interestingly, that they do now show dual runways operations as follows:

Mon-Fri
0500z-1959z

Sat
0500z-1459z

Sun
0500z-0830z
1200z-1958z

[TURIN]

Heard a rumour today that AA will bring back the Charlotte service next year.
Anyone else?

[roverman]

As long as they bring back all the Bronte sisters, Anne and Emily, too. Sounds like fiction to me

[Ex Cargo Clown]

CLT is not coming back.

[Betablockeruk]

After the 25th Sept "we'll take 1 diversion and no more" stunt, today Manchester has dealt with 8 diversions, including Shannon's KU 777. Guess 9 sadly missing MON airbuses have made some space available.

[DP.]

Busy day all round - three inbound emergencies (two returning after departure) within about 90 minutes this afternoon.

[FFMAN]

I had the real displeasure of arriving back with KLM into T3 at the weekend after a re-routing (shudder).
It got me thinking. T3 is over-crowded, T2 is not so after the sad loss of Monarch, would now be the time to transfer Air France and KLM from T3 to T2? They would also be in the same terminal as Virgin in whom they have recently invested.
This would free up some useful space at T3.

From my own perspective, it would also mean that both AF and KLM would come off my personal 'Avoid List' as the T3 experience is so bad that I try to not book flights going through it (although domestic is generally not too bad in fairness).

[easyflyer83]

I think you’d notice very little difference with the movement of AF/KL in the grand scheme of things.

Flown through T3 many times, including very recently, and never really thought it was that bad. By the same token I would never say it is that great either but I wouldn’t really let it sway my airline choice.

[LAX_LHR]

If AF/KL were to move out, it would just be more Ryanair moving in and with higher LF and seat capacity, would probably make the terminal even busier.

[pholling]

I think you’d notice very little difference with the movement of AF/KL in the grand scheme of things.

Flown through T3 many times, including very recently, and never really thought it was that bad. By the same token I would never say it is that great either but I wouldn’t really let it sway my airline choice.

I used to fly out of T3 every week until about 4 years ago, it was pleasant, not stellar, but busy while not being slammed. I hadn't returned until this past year and all of my trips have seen the departures lounge a complete mess as it is overflowing in the central hub. Not even standing room around Costa/Boots/WH Smith, or upstairs by the restaurants. You have to go down the international departures wings to find a place to breath let alone sit. Some of this is because of the increased traffic, and some because of the change in traveller type, from business travellers who didn't dwell in the terminal, to leisure which spend a couple hours there. At the same time the number of international passengers arriving has increased, which puts strain on the immigration processing component, domestic arrivals are about the same as they were 4 years ago. If AF & KL moved back to T2 it would surely show for their passengers on arrival, but would lead to significant increase in ground taxi times for the aircraft. Also, there is an issue with premium lounge capacity in T2, at certain times it is oversubscribed, or was prior to the Monarch collapse. Given the T3 seems slightly better provisioned relative to the demand, this might decrease premium traveler experience.

[CCGE29]

MNG Cargo to relocate to MAN operating a 3x weekly service on a mix of A300 & A330. From Sunday 5th November. Service operates days 2/5/7.

Due to runway resurfacing at Luton in November. Believed to be moving back once work is complete.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

For all those slating T3, just remember what it was built for.

[Skipness One Echo]

Flown through T3 many times, including very recently, and never really thought it was that bad. By the same token I would never say it is that great either but I wouldn’t really let it sway my airline choice.
Depends on how long you go back. My first ever flight was into MAN on a BA ATP onto what was the new domestic pier, a haven of calm and professionalism. It's still physically visible as part of T3 but as of last week, the KFC nails what T3 is now. People stuffing their faces with junk on the run or sitting on the floor recharging phones. It's just a very unpleasant environment to be in, only beaten by MAG's destruction of the orignal concept of the once beautiful terminal at STN. BAA used to be known as malls with runways attached, at which point MAG smirked and said "Hold my beer." Please God let the T2 rebuild be something decent...

[LAX_LHR]

There are only 2 saving graces of T3.

One is the lounges, which are usually well recommended by those who use them.

The second is the duty free store, in the fact, you don't have to walk through it to get to the gates.
It apparently still makes decent money for its size, and thus shows you don't have to heard every passenger through it to make good yields.

[FFMAN]

For all those slating T3, just remember what it was built for.

So that makes it ok then? :confused:

You really have to experience this terminal to understand how utterly desperate it has become. It is a terminal now characterized by lager and other alcoholic beverages with all the shouting and bravado that goes with it in such a confined space. You now have to go into the central 'pub' area to see departure boards now which are so small that you have to go close up to them, risking knocking some moron's beer over.

When I asked a member of staff why the screens in more public areas had been taken down, the answer was 'they had to be taken down because they were causing congestion with people looking at them'......I mean you could hardly make it up could you?

Add to that the Airport management's self-created permanent traffic jam caused by the blocking off of as many drop off points as possible, meaning people have to go round and round until a space becomes available. It's not rocket science to realize that people going to the airport by car or taxi have to, at some point, get out of the vehicle. Most people need a few seconds to do this and unblocking the areas around the multi-storey would allow that to happen and stop the constant congestion.
Hence where ever possible I choose an airline that doesn't fly from this awful place.

[LAX_LHR]

They have just created more drop off spaces outside T3 by moving the bus stops.

[Baltic Skies]

i avoid Manchester as much as possible and use East Midlands,a far superior experience in every area.

[LAX_LHR]

With about 30 flights a day, I wouldn't expect anything less at East Mids to be honest......

[AndrewH52]

Bit patronising, don’t you think? At around 4.7m pax pa, throughput at East Midlands is only about 750k below T3’s declared capacity...

[Ex Cargo Clown]

T3 is not designed to be a lo-co hub. And yes, I've only been in there about 1,000 times

[Mr A Tis]

If anyone needs to look at forward thinking airport development, pop down to Lyon. The place only handles about 10M pax but there is acres of space, a new departure lounge has just been added and more space is currently being added.
It also has a semi remote bus/train/tram terminal like Manchester- but again in a lovely spacious transport hub. Wide skylink with facilities and working walkways.
The development is way ahead of the game, so much space, seating, charging points by seats. The way Manchester used to be under Gil Thompson.
On a good day T3 is passable, on a bad day its diabolical. As been said, it means departing from a cramped pub, people sat on the floor, gates inaccessable due crowding and unless youve got lounge access lucky if you can get a coffee.
I avoid T3 flights were possible and I am aware of people who now favour other airports in general.
The TP is too little too late(by ten years) the shown designs are narrow and look cramped.
At the very least they could get lifts, walkways and escaltors working along with better traffic flows (maybe invest something in public transport?). Also curb the lager pub culture which is fine in moderation, but it's clearly out of hand given the number of in flight troubles this year,and downgrading of catering establishments.

[doublesix]

Now all they have to do is get the ‘parking marshals’ to direct drivers to the furthest drop offs from the terminal entrance road rather than them standing there with their hands in their pockets letting people drop anywhere ie, in the middle of the road

[pwalhx]

Quote from Airlineroute on twitter
Thomas Cook Airlines UK seems to be jumping ahead by listing daily Manchester - New York flight in W18. Actual search still lists 1-3 wkly

[rampman]

Now all they have to do is get the ‘parking marshals’ to direct drivers to the furthest drop offs from the terminal entrance road rather than them standing there with their hands in their pockets letting people drop anywhere ie, in the middle of the road


Traffic marshals do all they can to send the cars down to the bottom but when drivers ignore them or are so selfish that it is only them that matters so just park in the road. The marshals have no powers and the taxi drivers know this . But come early next year you will have to pay to drop off and pick up .

[AndrewH52]

Really? They are introducing drop off charges - from when, and where has it been announced?

[rampman]

Not been announced yet but will be announced befor year end for a april roll out date ... Prices have not been soted but looking at £2-£4 ..

[LAX_LHR]

The drop off fee was discussed but has now been dropped as it is unworkable in the current climate.

They wanted to try and calm traffic around the site but have decided the fee would make things worse. A bit like when they used to charge for plastic bags but then realised it was actually slowing the security process down by people fumbling for change if they didn't have the right liquids bag.

Another example, the drop off outside Olympic house can't have barriers installed as it's an approach road to the car park and several buses use it too, so would have to remain free in the face of charges upstairs in T1. Same for T3, fees would be unworkable.

[chaps1954]

I hope you are right LAX as it would be chaotic

Ian

[DP.]

(maybe invest something in public transport?)

There's plenty you can criticise MAN for, but this one seems a bit unfair. There's regular train services to and from the airport, the Metrolink has been extended out there. I'm not sure what more MAN can be expected to do in that regard.

[LAX_LHR]

I agree with above.

For all of the perceived faults of MAN, public transport is not one.

There are 24 hours bus routes, coaches up and down the country, trains up as far as Edinburgh and a metro link which itself isn't far off being 24 hours. What more could MAN do (apart from.....)

The only thing that could be improved is the southern link rail provision, but that's a central government issue and franchise problem, not MAN.

[Mr A Tis]

Completely disagree about the above. Unless you live on a train line or Wythenshawe -public transport is dire. Some routes are duplicated whilst vast areas within 10 miles radius are cut off.
The facts speak for themselves, Out of Manchester Airport passengers and staff only 14% use public transport, one of the lowest of the UK Airports. Whereas all London Airports attract over 40% useage and almost all the others have a better take up.
Car parking is a huge cash cow and is a much higher priority, hence taxiways used for car parks, and the subsequent traffic chaos around terminals.
I used to take a local bus, now withdrawn after 40 years(like so many others) so I use taxis instead, thus adding to the Terminal congestion.
Many moons ago- MAN used to provide some bus subsidies to TfGM and had the introduction of Skylink bus services- these have almost all been withdrawn in favour of continuous car park promotions instead.

[vinnym]

Was dropped of at Terminal 1, two weeks ago on a Sunday morning at 08.00 so just after the morning peak. It was chaotic, can’t imagine what it would be like midweek. If a drop of charge were introduced anytime in the near future this chaos would be much worse IMO.
I can see a charge being introduced when all the Terminal work is finished . . . Someone will gave to pay for the upgrade after all.

[CCGE29]

The problem is less so with trains and trams and more with bus routes. Over recent years bus routes to/from the airport have been cut back hugely.


A further problem with the lack of public transport uptake by passengers travelling to/from MAN is the lack of publicity (even with regards to the train). Many people that drive everywhere do not know about the rail connections to the airport. This also applies to bus routes, people nowadays don't know their local bus routes and therefore will travel everywhere in a car. This ultimately leads to the cancellation of certain bus routes.


The 200 bus service from Wilmslow to the Viewing Park is the next to go, ends on the 31st of March 2018.

[FFMAN]

In fairness, even if you had the best bus network in Europe, how many passengers would lug their luggage on to a bus? Very few I would wager.
Buses are great for staff but not for pax.

Back to T3 problems.....I think most people could accept some short term pain for long term gain if there was a plan. Trouble is there is no plan. I'm not even convinced that MAN even accept that they have a problem (or problems). Some of the replies on here, presumably from people that work at the airport, imply this.

If they don't recognize the problems, they are a long way off finding solutions. That's what is so frustrating along with pax never being listened to. When you have people saying it's so bad they are prepared to use other airports then there is a problem....but those in charge just appear to be constantly in denial.

Whatever happened to the sensible looking plan to build a new distributor road parallel to the railway? This would have allowed the old Ringway Road to be closed. A new check in and security area could be built in its place freeing up significant space for airside 'breathing space' within the existing building envelope.

But no....let's demolish half of T2 instead, the only terminal of the three that actually was fit for purpose......

[MANFOD]

Transport to MAN:

There are some very valid points made of the issues affecting public transport to the airport. I've little knowledge about bus services but am more familiar with trains.

In many ways, there are a good selection of train services, especially from the West, North and North East. However, even where there is a direct train, it will often be dependent on how convenient a passenger's local station is, be it Leeds, Preston, Burnage or wherever. And there are significant gaps - the corridors from Macclesfield to Stockport and Buxton to Stockport as well as from areas such as Knutsford & Northwich, where train journeys would involve going via Manchester; and from the south, East Midlands etc. changing at Crewe.

However, the airport station is constrained by the number of platforms, track lay-out and paths into Manchester Piccadilly.

In terms of numbers, the airport has added 10m passengers since 2009. Do we have any specific numbers for passengers arriving at and departing from the rail station over that period and whether they have risen exponentially?

As regards cars, having to use part of a taxiway for parking them doesn't reflect well on the airport I'm afraid. I hope it's very much short term and will not be repeated next summer.

[chaps1954]

FFMan They have to pull the old pier down in oreder to build the new one which is already into build mode and is rising quite fast from it`s start point on the old staff west car park and will then be joined onto the old T2 minnus the pier around the high numbered stands 212 to 215 which are now have a temporary building, I think LAX-LHR
can fill in more than me

[DP.]

FFMan They have to pull the old pier down in oreder to build the new one which is already into build mode and is rising quite fast from it`s start point on the old staff west car park and will then be joined onto the old T2 minnus the pier around the high numbered stands 212 to 215 which are now have a temporary building, I think LAX-LHR
can fill in more than me

This is correct. Considering that the Transformation Programme is effectively doubling the size of it, the suggestion that they're "demolishing half of T2" is woefully wide of the mark.

[cumbrianboy]

Of course it's not just the terminals that pose a problem. Airside the taxiway layout causes congestion and i think it's absurd that the UK's 3rd largest airport decides to take out of service the most used holding point and taxiway on the entire airfield and make it into a car park ... and the general taxiway infrastructure especially around T3/1 is shocking - frequently you can wait 10-20 mins after doors closed for a push clearance and then another 10-15 mins at the hold ...

[LAX_LHR]

New route time, and we have a random pair. Cambridge and Gothenburg:

BA8235 MAN 0720 CBG 0805/0830 GOT 1130
BA8236 GOT 1625 CBG 1725 /1750 MAN 1835

Mon/Tue/Thu from Oct 30th

Will be interesting to see what the aircraft does either side of these flights as clearly the aircraft starts/ends its day at MAN but I cannot see another flight that gets the aircraft to MAN (such as extra BLL flights).

I also highly doubt the MAN-CBG-MAN sectors will be bookable as stand alone flights,

Publicly viewable in the OneWorld timetable.

[01475]

This is the existing AstraZeneca corporate flight that SunAir operate, which used to be publicly bookable between CBG and GOT but ceased to be so after Cambridge stopped being a passenger airport. I assume it has been put in the public timetable in error?

[LAX_LHR]

This is a new extension to MAN. BA currently doesn't serve GOT from MAN (it used to) so this is a *new* route.

[LGWAlan]

MAN-CBG-GOT 0730-1130 BA8235 Mon, Tue and Thur
GOT-CBG-MAN 1625-1835 BA8236 Mon, Wed and Thur

Source - Amadeus

[LAX_LHR]

Departure time from MAN is 0720 on Amadeus too, as written in my original post.

[FFMAN]

FFMan They have to pull the old pier down in oreder to build the new one which is already into build mode and is rising quite fast from it`s start point on the old staff west car park and will then be joined onto the old T2 minnus the pier around the high numbered stands 212 to 215 which are now have a temporary building,

Yes - I know that, but it's not the point I was making. T2 used to be the only good terminal. Now all three are a mess for the next few years.

The Transformation Program required both T1 and T3 to be 'transformed'. Instead they chose to transform the perfectly serviceable T2.

[easyflyer83]

RE: Public transport

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's actually very difficult to get passengers to arrive via public transport. MAN is still a very leisure airport with the once or twice a year brigade travelling on their hard earned holiday. Suggest travelling their by train and they'll be "sod that, we're getting a taxi". It's very hard to compete with travelling door to door. For many of those people the holiday still begins at the airport, they don't want the faff (or perceived faff) of getting a train, they'd rather treat themselves to a taxi or hotel/car parking. Plus, when travelling in a family or group, a taxi/mini bus us far more economical in most cases.

You do see a difference in travelling habits between flights however. Many tend to use the train on business/city route pairs when passengers also tend to fly more frequently.

[inOban]

Why is it that MAN finds it more difficult to encourage public transport than other airports? It's something like 30% at EDI, and it only has tram bus or coach. The days of most people lugging large suitcases are surely gone?

[LAX_LHR]

I dont know what else MAN can do really. The fact we have all these links yet some are still calling it poor, I just really don't know where MAN can go next.

[eggc]

I'm part of the problem. Not a chance I'd drag cases on / off buses or trains to get to an airport, with wife and kids in tow. Advertise all they want, cases and public transport dont mix for me. Car or taxi only. I think many are the same.

[mr_moose]

Why is it that MAN finds it more difficult to encourage public transport than other airports? It's something like 30% at EDI, and it only has tram bus or coach. The days of most people lugging large suitcases are surely gone?

Very few leisure flights have train friendly flight times for both outbound and return legs. Usually, either your flights in the first wave of departures, in which case there are no trains to the airport early enough - or in the later wave, which generally means landing back in the early hours, where there are no trains for many hours.

We looked at travelling to MAN by train for our annual holiday this year.
Sounded great in principle - around 2 hours door to door. Train fare worked out around £50 for both of us - similar to a weeks parking - certainly sounded more attractive than a 3am drive over woodhead pass!

Problem is - Outbound flight left at 7am on a Sunday morning (so had to get to the airport around 11pm and hang around for 8 hours, or pay for a hotel) Return flight landed early hours of the following Monday morning (No trains). Who wants to sit at Manchester Airport for 4 hours waiting for the first train in the morning, after spending best part of a day travelling?

We drove, and used Jetparks!

[SWBKCB]

Last time I flew from MAN I took the train from the North East - never again.

[inOban]

There are three all-night services to EDI - from city centre, Fife and Glasgow. Mancunians seem to have a problem.

[eggc]

I think you will find there are a lot more than Mancunians fly from Manchester :ok:

[doublesix]

I work for a ‘airport hotel’ driving passengers to/from the terminals. I can assure you that whether they come from Scotland, the South West or even as close as Rochdale (not kidding), the ones I’ve met would not consider driving as an alternative to the stress and in a majority of cases the cost of parking and an overnight stay at a hotel.

[eggc]

The CAA official stats disagree with you doublesix...a massive 84% of MAN's passengers get to the airport via car or taxi. That is very high considering MANs excellent transport links, nightmare roads and expensive parking, but those are the stats...and I cant talk...I am one of the 84% and no matter what they do I probably always will be.

[rampman]

Public transport is very good to the airport i use it all the time never had a problem.... I think people just turn there nose up at it its a lot cheaper than driving and parking up. The station is about the best building at the airport. Plenty of space to mill about

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Bus services have been hammered notably the 369. As for parking, just stick your car on a back street in Heald Green. Or leave it on my driveway. T2 was always designed to have a "T2B island", I know this as I know the the person who put the comms in; My late Dad

[Wheelnut69]

We fly from man t1 a lot and we live about 2 hours drive away. It tend to be heald green prem inn for a cheap overnight then T1 meet and greet.

Public transport when we land bleary eyed at 3 in the morning with luggage is just not happening.

[chaps1954]

Ex Cargo clown why on earth they took the 369 off is crazy my public transport option wiped out

[DP.]

Yes - I know that, but it's not the point I was making. T2 used to be the only good terminal. Now all three are a mess for the next few years.

The Transformation Program required both T1 and T3 to be 'transformed'. Instead they chose to transform the perfectly serviceable T2.

The point is to significantly increase the capacity of T2, to be able to take some of the pressure off of the other terminals.

T2 was the only sensible option for expansion, with respect to not unduly affecting operations during the works. It's a phased build, with the new section of the terminal to be constructed before they renovate the existing.

[ETOPS]

I live 6 miles from MAN and there is no public transport available thus I use my car (or very occasionally a taxi) and have done for 20 years or so.

I could "construct" a no-car journey which would involve a 1.5 mile walk to the nearest station, train into Manchester City centre and another train back out to the Airport. Depending on the time of day that takes well over an hour and costs £14.90 day return.

Try that 5 times a week and watch your bank balance dwindle...........

[inOban]

I take it you work there. How much do you pay to park?

6 miles looks like a nice bike ride.

And of course you have had 20 years to consider whether to move house to somewhere with direct access by public transport.

[ETOPS]

6 miles looks like a nice bike ride.


Yes - at 5am with a suitcase and flight bag. :ugh: I suppose I could wear my hat backwards to stop it blowing off!

had 20 years to consider whether to move house

Yes - spent all of that time considering how much I like my house and the town I live in. Anyway the new road opens in 5 months time so driving in will be a doddle...........

[inOban]

That's a choice you are free to make. It only annoys me when people make that choice and then complain about the consequences - traffic jams, parking charges etc. I'm sure your nice new road will be wonderful for a few weeks until it gets jammed full. Remember rule #1 of road building. Traffic expands to fill the space available.

[chaps1954]

No it`s when you have a choice and they then take it away and leave the bad option, which for me is a 20 minute walk in the wrong direction to then get a bus that takes 3 times as long as the original
What is the point of moving when you have all costs of moving and you end up in an area you don`t really want to be (schools etc etc).

[Rutan16]

Even at Heathrow relatively few terminal passengers arrive or depart using the local service buses. No most of their clientel are workers or even transfer (bus to bus) And nothing to do with the airport. And whilst the local buses within the GLA are frequent and some even operate 24 hours a day those into neighbouring Surrey are dire
Many foreign tourists are collected by tour rep and coaches just as the Brits are in the med on traditional package breaks
National Express operate the transfer coaches between airports very profitably plus they carry extensive longer distance traffic either directly or via Victoria for cost conscientious regional passengers
However the prime public transport method used by terminal passengers are rail both LUL and for the rich or time pressed the Heathrow Express

Compare and contrast Manchester has TFM support early trams from guess who yeap staff
Regionally heavy rail has captured significant traffic flows and could do better

Whilst delegulation remains TFM can’t do any thing about the buses and as with Surrey, Cheshire too has dire transport support across the board

The lack of integration is entirely the responsibility of past Tory political dogma and a total lack of understanding of the benefits of such ideas preferring the market to dictate
Hense a bazilian million buses through Rusholme and nought past the post house or what ever it’s called these days
National Express do operate into the airport and via the Central Manchester coach park in a similar manner to Heathrow however they don’t seem to have the success in marketing the connections available
Inbound tourism especially packages remain a small part of the airport profile so not so many coaches apparent
All that said live anywhere south of the city taxies remain the most cost effective and probably most environmental method of getting a family and granny with suit cases safety to and from airport period

[ZOOKER]

InOban,

I can just imagine aircrew cycling 6 miles to work, especially cabin crew, in the winter, when it's dark, cold and wet.

Drove along Ringway Road West a week or so back, and saw several aircrew walking along the road towards EGCC, with luggage on wheels. Something I had never seen in 30 years.

[bodminsteve]

InOban,

I can just imagine aircrew cycling 6 miles to work, especially cabin crew, in the winter, when it's dark, cold and wet.

Drove along Ringway Road West a week or so back, and saw several aircrew walking along the road towards EGCC, with luggage on wheels. Something I had never seen in 30 years.

"Aircrew" (How quaint that sounds these days) Having to walk ....Get used to it this is the brave new world of airtravel ..BOACs never coming back;)

[ZOOKER]

bodminsteve,

Most 'aircrew" are "motorists"......They need somewhere to park their cars.

'Multi-storey car-parks'.......They're the future.

And as for BOAC.....Of course it'll never come back......Just like vinyl....When it was replaced by CD in the 1980s. :E