Manchester-2

[Skipness One Echo]

Oh for Pete's sake. If I am getting on a first wave departure in winter, I would very much prefer a well rested and stress free pilot. Same goes for cabin crew.
It's not beyond the wit of man to sort this out.

[Brigantee]

Oh for Pete's sake. If I am getting on a first wave departure in winter, I would very much prefer a well rested and stress free pilot. Same goes for cabin crew.
It's not beyond the wit of man to sort this out.

If walking a few hundred yards is going to stress a crew member out to extent they cannot function effectively he/she's is in the wrong job i'd suggest

[inOban]

There is growing evidence of the long-term medical effects of working hours which don't match our natural body rhythms. Personally, I wonder whether all safety-critical staff who clock on before, say, 7, should be required to sleep on-site. Would cost a fortune.

[gojmc]

If walking a few hundred yards is going to stress a crew member out to extent they cannot function effectively he/she's is in the wrong job i'd suggest

It’s a 40 minute walk with a crew bag (and possibly a handbag). The crew member is then expected to be on their feet for upto 14 hours and still function 100% should something go wrong on the final landing of the day. Then walk back 40 minutes. Try that 5 days a week!

[gojmc]

InOban,

I can just imagine aircrew cycling 6 miles to work, especially cabin crew, in the winter, when it's dark, cold and wet.

Drove along Ringway Road West a week or so back, and saw several aircrew walking along the road towards EGCC, with luggage on wheels. Something I had never seen in 30 years.

I suspect the crew you saw walking were Jet2 crew. They have a very “robust” disciplinary process for late crew members and most are on temporary contracts. You can understand why the crew choose to walk but it’s not something I want to do before a long duty.

[inOban]

A little bit of light exercise at the start of the day, to get blood circulating properly, is recommended by the experts.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

I suspect the crew you saw walking were Jet2 crew. They have a very “robust” disciplinary process for late crew members and most are on temporary contracts. You can understand why the crew choose to walk but it’s not something I want to do before a long duty.

If it were Jet2 crew then they shouldn't have been feeling they needed to walk, Jet2 crews have all been told explicitly that if the car parking and bus causes them to be delayed then they will not be investigated for being late.

[eggc]

If you walked that I reckon you'd be passed by 3 or 4 staff buses on the way.

[gojmc]

If you walked that I reckon you'd be passed by 3 or 4 staff buses on the way.

Depends on the time of day and the current roadworks

[southside bobby]

Blinkin heck...
MAN slow news weekend+...Three days of buses & car parks!.
Riveting stuff.
Bring back LAX LHR with info trawled out of GDS....

[rkenyon]

Isn't there a park and ride at Sale Water Park? Wouldn't this be good for airport commuters?

[DP.]

Depends on the time of day and the current roadworks

Even with the temporary lights on Styal Road at the moment, it's not been anywhere near as bad as it was at a few points over the summer. I can't think of an occasion in the last six weeks where I'd have been quicker walking than getting the bus.

[ZOOKER]

Slow news weekend maybe, bobby, but there is no point in having more routes, or increased seat capacity/frequency on those routes already in place, (both of which LAX informs us about frequently and with great enthusiasm), if there are major issues with the supporting ground infrastructure.

[southside bobby]

Right of course Zooker..

[ZOOKER]

A few months ago, I was talking to a neighbour who works at EGCC, and parked in Staff West. He mentioned that the airport were looking at the possibility of a staff/pax car-park near the M60 at Urmston, with a shuttle-bus down to the airport?

[LAX_LHR]

I don't know what it is about this thread to be honest.

Post news of airline info (like the sub section suggests), and you get the piss taken out of you, called a 'MAN fan', that it isn't really newsworthy and so on (often by people who post no useful info themselves, but hey ho).

Talk about buses, and the forum is on fire, says it all really.

[Albert Hall]

I've stayed out of the discussion about public transport thusfar. I've always found public transport options to/from MAN more than adequate to meet my own needs and it's one of the better aspects of using the airport. I stick by my previous comments that T3 and its appalling service levels are one of the key problems that MAN suffers from, but I certainly wouldn't rank public transport on that same list of key problems.

[ZOOKER]

LAX,
given the wide remit of this section of PPRuNe, how about a new thread dealing purely with MAN/EGCC routes/services? Your enthusiasm for this topic, (along with several other frequent posters), seems to identify a 'specialised subject area'.
There are obviously many airport infrastructure issues, both at present, (and in the future, related to the 'Transformation Project'), which will continue to occupy any Manchester Airport forum for many years to come.
Just something to consider. I'm sure all interested parties would frequently consult both pages/discussions.

[GrahamK]

When did Air France stop nightstopping at MAN? Sems they utilise 2 BE E175s in the morning, deparing within 3 mins of each other

[bar none]

I don't know what it is about this thread to be honest.

Post news of airline info (like the sub section suggests), and you get the piss taken out of you, called a 'MAN fan', that it isn't really newsworthy and so on (often by people who post no useful info themselves, but hey ho).

Talk about buses, and the forum is on fire, says it all really.

You don`t get the piss taken out of you. In the context of interesting news you get ten out of ten as opposed to buses and trains which rate one out of ten

[paully]

Take no notice LAX..your input is appreciated and interesting as well as being accurate. It comes from sources not available to a lot of us on here, so thanks for what you do :D...

[LAX_LHR]

Zooker,

Why does MAN routes news require a seperate thread?

This is the airlines, airports and ROUTES sub forum (which I do post additions and subtractions), this is the Manchester thread, so therefore what I post is surely more than relevant and in the right sub section.

I appriciate many flight crew frequent this forum, but surely the general public, enthusiasts and such are likely to find routes news more intersting than page after page of conjecture if a pilot takes an extra 10 minutes to get to work (I'm not suggesting the issue is trivial, but, consider the wider audience).
Better still, and genuinely not a slight on you guys, but why not continue to make sure MAG/your airline are made aware directly of the issues with occurance reports and such and get the problem sorted?

[chaps1954]

GrahamK Air France stopped night stopping a good few years ago with Flybe operating the last inbound and first outbound.

[MANFOD]

Perhaps not riveting, but neither is news of a new airline starting services in my opinion.

Unbelievable! And there's me thinking a forum headed "Airlines, Airports & Routes" with a separate Manchester thread might be suitable for news of a new airline or new services at Manchester.

[ZOOKER]

MANFOD,

"news of a new airline or new services at Manchester".

Sadly, at the moment, the site, MAN/EGCC, or whatever, seems incapable of supporting the services they already have.

A great shame indeed.

[ZOOKER]

LAX,

'AIRLINES, AIRPORTS and ROUTES'.

With equal weight given to all 3 topics, which are totally separate.

Just trying to separate those who are more concerned about how many first class seats the XYZ 757 has, and how late it was, from those concerned about how EGCC actually works/or, sadly, doesn't.

[LAX_LHR]

Which then begs the question, if you feel all 3 have equal weight, why should it be routes news that is moved to its own subsection? Genuine question.

Routes news seems very infrequent at the moment, and certainly hasn't had as much coverage/post count lately as problems in various departments, so curious as to why there is a perception that said routes news is overbearing and warrants a move away from this thread.

[canberra97]

Changing topic and getting back to route news, are there any updates regarding the proposed service from KU or even the long awaited CA to PVG?

[ZOOKER]

LAX,

It doesn't really matter what is moved to where.

If we need a separate discussion set up about how this particular airport, (or any other), actually operates, then so be it.

It is just often tiresome, listening to those who would like new services, complaining that those who actually make the existing services at EGCC 'work', commenting that at present, all isn't.....How shall we say.....'Tickerty-boo'.

[chaps1954]

I say leave it as it is why should a particular section be forced out, my interest is airlines, airports and routes exactly as it says on the can. If you don`t like it go and read the DTV forum, now that is soul destroying because nothing happens there all

[LAX_LHR]

That's fine Zooker,

I get your frustration, but I just didn't see why my name had to be dragged into it all, as I hadn't actually commented on the debate about staff east and such.

[ZOOKER]

LAX,

Apologies, the only reason I mentioned you is that you seem to be the most prolific poster of information pertaining to new services and changes to existing ones. You obviously have access to sources of information which others on here do not.

The suggestion of a separate discussion was only a passing-thought, the idea being to prevent folk having to scroll through many posts which are unrelated to the subject they are interested in. Once the TP gets fully underway, I suspect there will be many pages of interesting observations.

[chaps1954]

ZOOKER if you actually look LAX has already set a forum for TP
Manchester Airport | Terminal 2 redevelopment - SkyscraperCity (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1989784)

Ian

[LAX_LHR]

No worries Zooker.

Some post different things as people have different fortes, mine is route news so it's what I post.

It's what can make a forum great, people have different knowledge bases so creates a great point of reference.

[GavinC]

Warning - This article is about improvements to access to MAN by Bus, Train and Metrolink. Only read if interested!


https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/busway-and-metrolink-extension-proposed-for-manchester-airport-transport-hub/

[TURIN]

Perhaps not riveting, but neither is news of a new airline starting services in my opinion.

Personally, news of an airline starting a new route is the primary reason I come to this forum.

So, if anyone would like to start a new one entitled 'MAN/EGCC/Ringway Buses and Trains Through the Ages' do feel free.

Plus-One here for Lax's input by the way. Some of the snippets he has posted have actually saved me from potential redundancy.

[ZOOKER]

TURIN,

Loads of news of new airlines starting routes over the years.

SAA, QANTAS, Gulf Air, Cubana, MALEV, LOT, to name a few.

All introduced with big corporate fanfares.

Several years later......They've gone.

Just saying....

[Ex Cargo Clown]

TURIN,

Loads of news of new airlines starting routes over the years.

SAA, QANTAS, Gulf Air, Cubana, MALEV, LOT, to name a few.

All introduced with big corporate fanfares.

Several years later......They've gone.

Just saying....

Only have to around the roads next to T2 to see what we lost. Odd you menthioned SAA, I remember getting of the school bus early just to see it's first arrival. As for QF, BA killed that.

[Logohu]

Airlines come and go (many literally), but by and large are quickly replaced by others :-

Qantas - dropped all of Europe (except LHR) when they jumped into bed with Emirates. QF probably sell more seats from MAN today on the 3x daily EK flights than they ever did on their own metal.
SAA - busily self destructing under the weight of corruption and better competition, nowadays barely able to maintain an A330 service to LHR
Gulf Air - relegated to a bit player when its key shareholding states decided to form their own airlines. Emirates, Etihad, Qatar and Oman now rule the ME skies
Cubana - was a short lived pseudo tourist flight (or was it a tech stop ?). Long since replaced by much better and higher capacity offerings to Cuba from TCX and TUI.
MALEV and LOT - both done for in the UK by Ryanair, Jet2, Easyjet, Wizz - as were most state owned East European airlines

A glance back at a MAN timetable from just 10 years ago shows just how quickly the industry evolves. Airlines featuring then included Sky Europe, Czech Airlines, BMI, Air Berlin, Zoom, Continental, City Airlines, VLM, Hapag Lloyd Express, Air Blue, Cyprus Airways, BA metal to JFK - to name but a few. All now gone, but always replaced in one form or another.

[Betablockeruk]

Talking of how quickly the industry evolves Primera just announced YYZ from STN. So, when are we going to get an aggressive long haul lo-cost operator. Not the slow burn TCX or VIR. Selfishly speaking, my family accounts need a £275 LAX return fare as offered by Norwegian from LGW!

[LAX_LHR]

But that £275 far you don't get bags or food.

I wouldn't call TCX slow burn either, their network has grown amazingly in the 4-5 years they have been at it. While the Norwegian growth has been very impressive, We are yet to see if it's all sustainable.

[MUFC_fan]

Looking at some of the Virgin fares early next summer which include bags, meals, FF points etc - no difference to any TATL LCC, in fact cheaper than TCX on every date I checked! East and west coasts.

[Skipness One Echo]

Primera just announced YYZ from STN. So, when are we going to get an aggressive long haul lo-cost operator. Not the slow burn TCX or VIR. Selfishly speaking, my family accounts need a £275 LAX return fare as offered by Norwegian from LGW!
In Feb, with hand baggage going hungry and coming back the next day.......
Careful what you wish for mind, I think TXC and VS are coming up against the limits of the market they're in, I thought BOS and SFO with VS would have been bigger winners and they together would have played a part in AA dropping 1/3 of their operation.

[roverman]

It's a pity that BOS and SFO have seen the classic MAN phenomenon of going from zero to too much capacity/competition in one hit. Either one of VS and TCX left alone on these routes would be successful and grow frequency. Instead, they are flying on the same days at the same time. Perhaps somehow the market will discourage over-provision without MAN losing the destination, leaving each airline to choose their own best and dedicated portfolio. NYC, MCO, LAS, and ORD are perhaps the only US cities which can sustain multiple providers out of MAN.

Interestingly, a friend recently flew MAN-PHL-BOS and return on AA and crowed about the experience, even when I pointed out that there were direct options.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Why is everyone saying there is too much capacity on SFO and BOS?

Have I missed something - or are one of TCX/VS about to make some cuts?

[roverman]

Why is everyone saying there is too much capacity on SFO and BOS?

Have I missed something - or are one of TCX/VS about to make some cuts?

VS cut back this summer's programme on both routes to end Sept, previously had been end October. For Summer 18 they are operating a shorter season than '17 on both, so suggests the market is weak or over-supplied. I think TCX have actually increased by one frequency on BOS next year (help me someone) so it may be tipping their way.

[LAX_LHR]

Currently even MT have cut back a little. SEA/BOS now run May-Sept (SEA I can't help but feel they are approaching it wrong but time will tell). The 3rd SFO is now a similar short season.

I've been told it may be temporarily cut back while they source the A330 they need and that the routes will then be restored back to the original plans. November should reveal all.


In other news, looks like Flybe are to announce MAN-BOD as it appears as a direct route option on their route map. Long time unserved route back into the fold hopefully.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Aren't VS experiencing issues with their fleet? The B789s are causing the A333s to be used on more LHR routes and creating a shortage of frames for MAN (hence why B744 is used on JFK and ATL in S18)?

[boredintheairport]

Hi all,

Idly checking flightradar following a friend's flight and I saw that tonight's FR3217 (Bergamo - Manchester) is being operated by a plane reg EI-DSG which is an Alitalia A320.

Is this a long-term lease? Or a one-off to cover a failure?

[Trav a la]

But that £275 far you don't get bags or food.

I wouldn't call TCX slow burn either, their network has grown amazingly in the 4-5 years they have been at it. While the Norwegian growth has been very impressive, We are yet to see if it's all sustainable.

Completely agree, and I think this report supports that view too.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/team-blog/2017/10/17/flew-new-york-69-worth/

[Navpi]

I'm based near Stansted. I would rather have Primera than nothing BUT if there was a choice sorry, it would be TCX or VIR on the departure boards everytime.

STN has been a graveyard for start ups with high ambition, let's hope they have deep pockets.

[LAX_LHR]

New Thomas Cook route to Marrakech.

MT1754 MAN 0915 RAK 1450
MT1755 RAK 1550 MAN 1735
Tues

MT1752 MAN 1415 RAK 2000
MT1753 RAK 2100 MAN 2345
Sun

Starts 4th Nov 2018.

3 carriers on MAN-RAK now (TOM/U2/MT), I wonder if this could be a little too much for this route?

Morroco seems to be really on the up from Manchester at the moment. Agadir also has 3 carriers (U2/3O/TOM) and Casablanca will increase to 4 weekly from March.

[Suzeman]

Hi all,

Idly checking flightradar following a friend's flight and I saw that tonight's FR3217 (Bergamo - Manchester) is being operated by a plane reg EI-DSG which is an Alitalia A320.

Is this a long-term lease? Or a one-off to cover a failure?

Neither

It was an FR24 error. Flight was operated by a normal FR 737

[Mr A Tis]

Given that the TP (too little too late) has now started, is it not a good opportunity for say Ryanair, easyJet & Jet 2 to be in their own part of the new TP? Then services and facilities for that profile of passenger can be provided better?
Likewise the pax of SQ, CX, HU, AA, LH, KLM & AF profiles are slightly different and their facilities can also be tailored (maybe without a KFC and Wetherspoon type pub with some useable seating).
I'm just having a run of using KLM & Flybe's at the moment and it is so embarrassing being in T3. At least the actual handling of Flybe is quiet good but Menzies with KLM ?:-(

[chaps1954]

We have that problem in that the land area is too small so rebuild cannot all be done at once, I agree about 5 years late but money was tight after the recession and so were ideas on how it would rebound.

[LAX_LHR]

Extra SAS capacity next summer:

Oslo:

New SK4609/4610 flight on Mondays and Friday's. Some A320 usage too. Makes OSL up to 9 weekly.

Copenhagen:

3rd daily Mon-Thu re-instated using a mix of either Air Nostrum CRJ1000 or SAS A320. The morning flight also increases to a full A321 usage.

Stockholm:

A 2nd daily flight is added on Sat/Sun to make 14 weekly rather than 12. B737/A320 used.

There are the usual reductions in peak summer, but, that's quite a healthy increase from SAS.

[easyflyer83]

I have news for you.... BA, SQ, EK (et al) Pax also drink in wetherspoons and some are also partial to the occasional KFC. I should know, I’ve travelled quite a lot with some of these airlines.....and not just in economy either.

Conversely, there are some easyJet Pax on certain routes in particular, who wouldn’t be seen dead with their fingers diving in to a bargain bucket.

My point is that these days we can no longer really segregate passenger needs depending on the airline they are flying with. The low cost model is so prolific these days that it is now the norm when flying short haul. The low cost carriers now carry a lot of business passengers and depending on route, some very well heeled travellers too.

The segregation of airlines these days is very much done so in relation to the airlines operational needs. I.e faster turnarounds, 100% self check in etc.

There are some incredibly snobbish views on this site. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wetherspoons or KFC nor the people who use those businesses on the basis that they frequent those establishments. Interestingly, you clump American carriers in those who shouldn’t be anywhere near a fast food joint. Americans frequently bring fast food onboard with them.

[LAX_LHR]

The prices KFC and Burger King charge in the airport, you need a 2nd mortgage anyway so hardly 'lower class' prices for the food!

We ate in Giraffe ex-MAN in Sept and the meal there probably cost no more than what a Burger King meal would have been.

[roverman]

Extra SAS capacity next summer:

Oslo:

New SK4609/4610 flight on Mondays and Friday's. Some A320 usage too. Makes OSL up to 9 weekly.

Copenhagen:

3rd daily Mon-Thu re-instated using a mix of either Air Nostrum CRJ1000 or SAS A320. The morning flight also increases to a full A321 usage.

Stockholm:

A 2nd daily flight is added on Sat/Sun to make 14 weekly rather than 12. B737/A320 used.

There are the usual reductions in peak summer, but, that's quite a healthy increase from SAS.

Good to see the legacy flag carriers growing alongside the locos. "In diversity we have strength". Aside from the old Eastern-Bloc carriers, who never really got a toe into MAN, the EU flag carriers who have traditionally been at MAN for decades have all survived and even grown since the embracing of locos over the last few years. Room for all at MAN, well kind of!

[globetrotter79]

Aside from the old Eastern-Bloc carriers, who never really got a toe into MAN


I can remember Tarom and Ukraine International, to name just two, operating for years at MAN. Am I right in thinking Aeroflot were here too back in the days?

[LAX_LHR]

We had Aeroflot and we have had Belavia for a long time now.

In other news, TUI will increase Phuket from bi-weekly to 1 weekly next winter. It looks like Krabi may be a new route as many more Krabi hotels available with the tag line 'flights available to Phuket and Krabi' when Manchester selected. Krabi is bi-weekly this winter from LGW, and a when selecting Thailand holidays from MAN, there seems to be a bi-weekly flight available on Fridays but as yet, nothing seems to be available as you get the 'all gone' message (Krabi is also not available from LGW for next winter yet either).

[TURIN]

TURIN,

Loads of news of new airlines starting routes over the years.

SAA, QANTAS, Gulf Air, Cubana, MALEV, LOT, to name a few.

All introduced with big corporate fanfares.

Several years later......They've gone.

Just saying....

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make. :confused:

You could equally have said,

Loads of news of new airlines starting routes over the years.

Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, USAIR/AA, SIA, Saudia, Continental/United, Virgin to name a few.

All introduced with big corporate fanfares.

Several years later......Still here. :ok:

[LAX_LHR]

Another one to watch for TUI could be Kuala Lumpur.

It's possible to select Malaysia on the holiday home page, with a bi-weekly flight on Thursday highlighted as an option. However, clicking on it will give the 'all gone' screen. We know that no scheduled airline has planned that far in advance yet, so could be interesting.

[roverman]

Yes, of course we have seen some Eastern Bloc carriers but they never had the traction of the Western equivalents and most withered when FR/EZY/LS opened bases at MAN.

On another note, I am trying to imagine my dinner party conversation going along the lines of 'We're off to Crabby next year"!

[FFMAN]

Extra SAS capacity next summer:

Oslo:

New SK4609/4610 flight on Mondays and Friday's. Some A320 usage too. Makes OSL up to 9 weekly.

Copenhagen:

3rd daily Mon-Thu re-instated using a mix of either Air Nostrum CRJ1000 or SAS A320. The morning flight also increases to a full A321 usage.

Stockholm:

A 2nd daily flight is added on Sat/Sun to make 14 weekly rather than 12. B737/A320 used.

There are the usual reductions in peak summer, but, that's quite a healthy increase from SAS.

That's interesting LAX - thank you for posting. Any timings for these?
Particularly for the CPH as it's a place I do frequent.

[LAX_LHR]

Sorry for later reply.

For the extra CPH fligts, it's a 2105 arrival into MAN, 2145 departure.

For the Oslo flights, again it's an afternoon/evening arrival. I've also realised that some weeks the 2nd daily is either a Monday or a Sunday, depending on the week you select.

For ARN, it's afternoon arrivals.

[GavinC]

TUI are indeed starting KL. how else would they fill the cruise ship they are basing there?!?

Will you be able to book flight only though? Doubt it.

[LAX_LHR]

TUI will operate cruise charters to Bangkok, Langkwai, Muscat, Aquba, Cochin and Dubai in Winter 2018, various dates.

[LAX_LHR]

Aside from the irregular flights, Bangkok and Langkwai are regular flights from Dec 18

TOM19 MAN 1630 BKK 1050+1
TOM19 BKK 1250 MAN 1825
B788 Alternate Thursday's

TOM47 MAN 1545 LGK 1135+1
TOM48 LGK 1340 MAN 1905
B788 Alternate Thursday's.

[roverman]

This is but a token bespoke leisure service (welcome though it is). MAN-BKK is acknowledged to be one of the stand-out un-served city pairs, someone needs to grab this route by the short and curlies soon and make a proper go of it. If the ever-promised TG service continues to be a pipe dream then it would seem to fit with Thomas Cook's growing mainstream long-haul focus, branching out to the East direct from MAN rather than via the Condor hub in Germany.

[Vokes55]

Won't happen. Thailand is very low yielding and is adequately covered by Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, Oman and Turkish.

[canberra97]

TUI are indeed starting KL. how else would they fill the cruise ship they are basing there?!?

Will you be able to book flight only though? Doubt it.

Marella Cruises 'the new name for Thomson Cruises' and their cruise ship the Marella Discovery will be based on the island of Langkawi not from Kuala Lumpur. The port for Kuala Lumpur is Port Kelang which is about an hours drive from the capital which is inland.

Flights from TUI are being offered from Manchester to Langkawi as a fly cruise program but I don't see where Kuala Lumpur fits into this.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Won't happen. Thailand is very low yielding and is adequately covered by Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, Oman and Turkish.

If that reason is accrurate it begs the question: why do TG fly to Europe at all let alone so many routes?

[southside bobby]

Dobbo Dobbo.
A rather unworldly question.
Sufficient thought & analysis will be your answer.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Can't book the TOM flights standalone. Shame really

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Dobbo Dobbo.
A rather unworldly question.
Sufficient thought & analysis will be your answer.

I'm not sure you've quite picked up my point...

[southside bobby]

Dobbo Dobbo..I think I did..
TG is not a commercial reality as we perceive the description.
Other factors/factions are at play when it comes to the long haul network.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Ah! Gotcha!

[LAX_LHR]

The new pier coming along well:

http://i63.tinypic.com/eu0pom.jpg

[coyotes_uk]

Forgive my ignorance but, the concrete towers, are they to do with the jetbridges, or something else?

[LAX_LHR]

Yes, they are air bridge connections similar to what the silver 'pods' are on T2.

The towers featured here are going to be similar to those at the end of the satellite piers of LHR T5 in that they stretch out from the pier.

[coyotes_uk]

Thank you! :ok:

Drive past the site every morning on the commute, it's fun watching the pier grow!

[bar none]

Looking at the 2018 summer schedule from Man to Mad I see that three times a week an Iberia Express aircraft is scheduled to arrive at Man at 1015. It doesn`t depart until 1750.

Has anybody any idea what it does in the meantime?

Lax Lon, over to you

[LAX_LHR]

From what I can see:

Tue/Thu: a1715 d1805
Sun: a1015 d1050

The old days of operation in Wed/Sat still showing but will be deleted in due course.

Hope that helps.

[duthcourage]

Full impact off the direct China flights from MAN now all over the news.

For example here:
https://www.insidermedia.com/insider/northwest/full-impact-of-manchester-beijing-flights-revealed

[LAX_LHR]

This link is interesting:

http://www.steerdaviesgleave.com/sites/default/files/elfinder/MovementMatters-UK/MM_04_A%20new%20horizon%20-%20Manchester%20Beijing%20connectivity.pdf

In summing up the presentations, Rhys Whalley, Executive Director, Manchester China Forum spoke ......<filler>.... Rhys explained how China would continue to be a huge opportunity for the UK and the Northern Powerhouse. Having secured transport links between Manchester and Beijing and Shanghai, Manchester China Forum seek further links with other cities in China, including Guangzhou

As noted somewhere else, slip of the tongue, mistake or other. There is a trade event in Shanghai soon, maybe supposed to be announced then?

[AndrewH52]

Either you misread or the summary has been amended...now reads “Having secured transport links between Manchester and Beijing and Hong Kong, Manchester China Forum seek further links with other cities in China, including Shanghai and Guangzhou”...

[MANFOD]

It's definitely been amended and wasn't misread. I also saw the initial text and assumed it was more likely to have been a slip of the tongue than an indication of an imminent announcement.

I'm not even sure whether Air China still hold the rights for MAN-PVG.

[LAX_LHR]

Definately amended, the text copied was a direct copy and paste, so not an error on my part.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

It was amended. Seemed odd at the time, so no biggie.

[MANFOD]

For the second morning in 10 days, MAN is the only major UK airport to be affected by fog (I think BFS & GLA had a little fog much earlier).

Is MAN more restricted in movements than some other airports - LGW for example - when in LVPs; and if so, is that due to airfield lay-out or taxiway maintenance at a particular time? On occasions, FR24 shows 1 inbound on finals and a second having only just left the hold, suggesting huge gaps. Actually, this morning between 07.30 and 08.00, there were usually 3 on approach but more recently it dropped to 2 again with 5 or 6 in the stacks. I appreciate there are outbounds to get away, but just wondered if MAN was abnormally restricted in LVP conditions.

[chaps1954]

The London airfields had fog the other day, it`s just luck of the draw

[MANFOD]

And that luck seems to have changed over the years. Back in the 60s/70's/80s, it wasn't too unusual for MAN to be one of the few airports not affected by fog when airports in the south and elsewhere were. A generality I know, but then if the direction of a gentle wind or drift was between NW and South East i.e. say NE or E; we tended to escape. S, SW or W tended to be a problem due to the Bollin valley. Nowadays, the wind direction seems irrelevant.

The forecasting of fog doesn't seem great these days either. A week last Friday, fog only appeared in the metars trend at about 05.00 that morning. The previous evening's TAFS had not predicted fog. Likewise the TAFS at 17.00 yesterday only gave a 30% Prob of 1400m in MIFG. I'm sure the airport and airlines would appreciate something more accurate, unless there are special factors which make MAN particularly difficult to forecast.

Fortunately most aircraft can now land in quite thick fog but the long holding delays can cause problems,especially if not originally expected.

[Navpi]

http://www.cityam.com/275294/lord-adonis-warns-stalling-heathrow-expansion-means-airport/amp

I "think" Manchester might beg to differ given meteoric long haul expansion in last 3 years.

[LAX_LHR]

The Monarch slots have now been returned to ACL, and will not form part of the appeal by KPMG.

This is due to MAN (MAG) making a submission to the high court to release the slots, thus they are not being contested any further.

Hopefully we should see the slots being used up soon, as said, MAG would not have made a submission to get its slots handed back if they didn't have any need to do so, it means airlines must be willing to use them.

[southside bobby]

Unless they did not want or expect to pay for them as they would have had to with KPMG.

[LAX_LHR]

MAN wouldn't have had to pay for them, the airlines would have (if there was any financial value attached to them)

[Skipness One Echo]

http://www.cityam.com/275294/lord-adonis-warns-stalling-heathrow-expansion-means-airport/amp

I "think" Manchester might beg to differ given meteoric long haul expansion in last 3 years.

Leave it to the LHR thread, eh Bagso?

There’s a really good book in TAS showing diversions at MAN over the years! Highly recommended.

[southside bobby]

LAX LHR...
Absolutely..That`s what I was replying to & picking up on.
The airlines would have had pay if KPMG owned the slots & do airlines need to,want to or expect to at MAN so I was postering maybe MAN/MAG itself headed this off for the financial benefit of MAN airline users.

[LAX_LHR]

But that's the point I'm making.

It would have been down to the airlines to fight this out if they really wanted the slots, not MAG.

MAG must have seen a business case for interviening in the court ruling, just like a business case has to be found for any financial outgoing, so, there must be airlines waiting in the wings to use those slots for that business case to have been present.

MAG wouldn't have spent time and money on this out of the goodness of their own heart, as they could have very easily just sat back (like the other airports involved did) and just wait for the scenario to be played out.

[MANFOD]

There’s a really good book in TAS showing diversions at MAN over the years! Highly recommended.

Absolutely agree Skip. And some of us are old enough to remember those diversion days back to the 70s & 80s. Could have been the 60s too if I'd caught the aviation hobby at a younger age!

[LAX_LHR]

They will have a preffered law firm on call, but I very much doubt MAG has teams of lawyers say round twiddling their thumbs waiting to write letters every now and then.

[gojmc]

But that's the point I'm making.

It would have been down to the airlines to fight this out if they really wanted the slots, not MAG.

MAG must have seen a business case for interviening in the court ruling, just like a business case has to be found for any financial outgoing, so, there must be airlines waiting in the wings to use those slots for that business case to have been present.

MAG wouldn't have spent time and money on this out of the goodness of their own heart, as they could have very easily just sat back (like the other airports involved did) and just wait for the scenario to be played out.

My opinion is that they wanted to prevent the situation where a single airline is the dominant player at the airport. If any of the top 5 airlines had bought the monarch slots they would have been significantly larger than the next.

[southside bobby]

LAX LHR...
Okay okay...regard the MAN slots issue another way.
The first question would be...have any airline/operator in any period of MAN`s history paid £££££ for their slots @ MAN?.
If the answer is no which I think is the answer then why would say EZY give a pile of £££ now to KPMG for a slot whilst lining up behind it would be another EZY flight for which the slot was free..ie obtained originally from the slot co-ordination pool.
You may be right that airlines may require those slots at some stage but the ignominy for MAN of KPMG just holding unused slots until such time as they could coerce money from airlines is worthy of MAN "fighting" to return to the common pool.
BTW what puzzles me is why with 2 R/W`s is MAN slotted & restricted it must be no where near any R/W capacity?.

[southside bobby]

sptraveller wrote..."I do think it`s a little bit too easy to overestimate the significance of that decision"....which less understated than my previous is actually a spot on observation.
Asked too was "if you have additional information you are free to share,please do so".

[gojmc]

LAX LHR...
Okay okay...regard the MAN slots issue another way.
The first question would be...have any airline/operator in any period of MAN`s history paid £££££ for their slots @ MAN?.
If the answer is no which I think is the answer then why would say EZY give a pile of £££ now to KPMG for a slot whilst lining up behind it would be another EZY flight for which the slot was free..ie obtained originally from the slot co-ordination pool.
You may be right that airlines may require those slots at some stage but the ignominy for MAN of KPMG just holding unused slots until such time as they could coerce money from airlines is worthy of MAN "fighting" to return to the common pool.
BTW what puzzles me is why with 2 R/W`s is MAN slotted & restricted it must be no where near any R/W capacity?.

Parking capacity at peak times is the issue

[chaps1954]

Not sure that is a problem at moment with 9 spare stands available with Monarch demise

[LAX_LHR]

LAX LHR...
Okay okay...regard the MAN slots issue another way.
The first question would be...have any airline/operator in any period of MAN`s history paid £££££ for their slots @ MAN?.
If the answer is no which I think is the answer then why would say EZY give a pile of £££ now to KPMG for a slot whilst lining up behind it would be another EZY flight for which the slot was free..ie obtained originally from the slot co-ordination pool.
You may be right that airlines may require those slots at some stage but the ignominy for MAN of KPMG just holding unused slots until such time as they could coerce money from airlines is worthy of MAN "fighting" to return to the common pool.
BTW what puzzles me is why with 2 R/W`s is MAN slotted & restricted it must be no where near any R/W capacity?.

Well to answer this, there is another question: if there is no financial value to the slots in terms of cold hard cash for the airlines, why would there be for MAN?

In terms of why would Easyjet pay for a slot now when another was free, it's a rhetorical question a bit like why would someone pay £500 for an airline ticket when another passenger may have only paid £50 for theirs?

The simple fact is, MAN would not have dragged itself through what could have turned out to be a lengthy court process for the sheer craic of it. Even if the slots did end up being of monetary value to Monarch, that's not for MAG to worry about per se, if the airlines wanted them that much, they would pay for them. If no one wanted to pay for them, the value would have been decreased on a sliding scale by KPMG no doubt, which yes, would have taken time but they would have eventually come back into the 'free' fold. This then brings back to the original question, why did MAN want them freed up for 2018 so quickly?

[southside bobby]

I am unable to portray/pursue the logic much further I`m afraid LAX LHR either you choose not to regard what does appear to be the reality of the slot situation @ MAN or an attempt or two to counter or challenge your own assumptions of MAG`s commercial reasoning & actions is not understood.
But just one last view,could it just be airlines do not wish to PAY for slots @ MAN simples & MAN wish to have the slots in the common pool as always & re used & not controlled & unused & strong armed by an airline receiver,in this case KPMG.
Please feel free to educate the forum whenever a first slot does change hands for hard cash @ MAN.
It`s nothing personal concerning MAN (it is part of the fold) but it must be a long way from slot selling between incumbents.

[ZOOKER]

MANFOD,

If I remember correctly, arrival spacing of between 10 and 15 miles are often common during LVPs. Later on this month, an 18 week duration H24 closure of TWY Alpha between A2 and A3, is, I believe, is due to come into operation. Associated with this is the closure of link AF and RET AE, for the period. This will mean the SW and of TWY A will become an isolated 'turning-loop', which will necessitate 'backtracking' by a/c which fail to vacate at Link 'B'/RET BD.

When 05L is in use, backtracking will also be required for those a/c unable to depart from Link B, (TORA 2036m).

The fog-forecasting became less accurate decades ago, with the closure of the EGCC regional met office, and it's relocation, initially to Daw Bank, and subsequently to Exeter.

Also, the met observations are now made by ATC staff, using the SAMOS system. The dedicated Met Office observers moved out about 10-15 years ago, if I remember correctly?

[LAX_LHR]

I feel you are the one not understanding the situation south side, it's quite simple really, but you seem to be making it far more complicated than it needs to be. I've not mentioned at any time that the slots did hold a monetary value. That was a hypothesis brought in by someone else. I've not suggesting MAN should start slot selling.

Let's try and break this down very simply, and what I alluded to in my very first post about it before any money terms were brought into it.

-KPMG took ACL to court as they wanted to hold on to the S18 slots so that they could be sold to airlines. They believed the slots had monetary value.

-MAN also made an interviening submission to the court as they wanted the slots freed for S18. The only airport to do so.

My whole point was questioning what the urgency was for Manchester. If there were no airlines waiting in the wings to take over the slots, MAN could have simply sat back and watched the situation play out, because, if there were no airlines wanting the slots, what did it matter to MAN on how the slots ended up back in the portfolio. Even *if* (please note my use of the word if here) they did end up being worth money, either the airlines would pay it or back off. If backed off, then they would have reduced in price continually until such time the slots were deemed suitable again.

So, this was the point, why did MAN want the slots back in the hands of ACL for 2018, and not just wait it out like other airports. You don't do that unless you have a need to do so.

To be honest, if we are not on the same page here, just understanding what it is you are actually writing due to your erratic punctuation would be a start.

[chaps1954]

I understand what you are saying

[LAX_LHR]

Thomas Cook will operate some cruise charters to Colombo next winter.

MT3702 MAN 2045 CMB 1205 Weds
MT3703 CMB 1505 MAN 2220 Thurs

Starts 17/10/18. Seems to be every other week like the CPT this winter. Announcement expected on regular Cape Town flights next winter.

New York JFK also appears to be 6 weekly next winter, with flights every day bar Saturday's.

[southside bobby]

LAX LHR..
MAN did not want to sit back & watch the situation play out as per one of your scenarios
because they are NOT in the same game/situation as LGW which the courts obviously recognised & were excepted from the review/case judgement...so good luck & wise decision.
The available slots possibly will or can be taken up but with the freedom of a normal ACL application which is quite obviously what MAN wish to see which is correct.
My original comment way back was TBH & in my opinion MAN also was aware that no airline @ MAN would expect or wish to pay for slots there anyways,(again recognised indirectly by the courts).
You are the informed poster @ MAN & you have been asked too if you would share any evidence to help with the above assumption for MAN/MAG`s wishing rapidly to exit the "wait & see approach".
So another question (& you do not answer any BTW) & I`m none too clear, is MAN now absolutely excepted from the Court review or is it now caught up in the appeal? genuine question.
If excepted,than for your positivity hopefully you will be hearing/seeing the applications v shortly.
We make a great pairing with my punctuation & your spelling :))

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Most of the MON slots have no value. Who would take a 2:30am slot on? KPMG are stupid, just release the slots to ACL.

[Plane.Silly]

They wouldn't be good administrators if they didn't try to get as much money back as possible, even if the search was doomed from the start, it was still a lead worth chasing

[LAX_LHR]

South side,

I had to be honest, I do feel like we are not agreeing on this because I do find it genuinely difficult to follow your posts due to the style of them, and thus that leads to the confusion. I appriciate that may seem like a personal attack, but like I say, I had to be honest. (Yes I may have the odd spelling error but that's partly down to the wonders of Apple autocorrect and I have posted before I release it has been changed).

As for the monarch slots at MAN, according to several media outlets, yes, they are now exempt from the appeal. ACL are now in possession of these and will split them as 50% new entrants and 50% incumbant operators. (See, no trouble answering questions when I can understand what is written).

As for my positivity, I hope so too. I know your preference is for STN to overtake MAN as 3rd largest airport again, but with these slots now at hand, hopefully MAN can keep its trend going....

[mavml]

I think what MAN are trying to avoid here is the situation where MON/KPMG continue to hold the slots looking for someone to buy them, but no-one is willing to pay for MAN slots and some form of stalemate is reached. The main objective for MAN must be to make sure they have every opportunity of being used for S18, regardless of who gets them.

Now they are back in the slot pool this means that airlines can apply for them now, and can factor them into any remaining S18 planning wiggle-room fleet and recruitment wise. Even a couple of weeks from now, this may be more difficult as airlines may need to source wet leases, 2nd hand aircraft or redeploy from other bases in order to utilise these slots - that takes time and if not done promptly could mean needing to cancel flights elsewhere in their network which are already on sale.

Take U2 for example, if they want to grow their MAN presence (I don't know if they do) they might need to forego growth elsewhere. I don't think all of their network-wide new routes or base expansion is yet on sale, so they still have the option to do this. But by mid-December they'll have more on sale, which makes it a lot harder for them redeploy and expand MAN.

Similarly in the case of LS, they might need to source more 2nd hand 738s or 330s.

So in summary, I think this is a sensible move from MAN to maximise their 2018 passenger throughput potential, and may or may not be based on intel from their airline customers around their plans.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Generally an in house team will ship out a piece of work where live proceedings are involved (such as an application).

In this instance, MAG instructed DLA Piper. See below.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/monarch-airlines-ltd-v-airport-coordination-ltd-08-Nov-2017-20171108.pdf

[LAX_LHR]

I don't think what you wrote makes sense, and you haven't given reason to suppose otherwise.

I don't find that surprising at all given you seem to take issue with most things I write......

[MKY661]

I wonder if any Terminal moves are planned, surely T1 will be getting very overcrowded with both EasyJet and Jet2 due to expand. Mind you with T2 due to be a lot quieter will this allow them do start more work on the transformation project earlier than planned?

[SWBKCB]

Now they are back in the slot pool this means that airlines can apply for them now, and can factor them into any remaining S18 planning wiggle-room fleet and recruitment wise. Even a couple of weeks from now, this may be more difficult as airlines may need to source wet leases, 2nd hand aircraft or redeploy from other bases in order to utilise these slots - that takes time and if not done promptly could mean needing to cancel flights elsewhere in their network which are already on sale.

This is the answer - MAG's move was to get the slots released and available to allow proper planning by all concerned.

[roverman]

Smart move by MAG. Their intervention was perhaps not decisive but taken in recognition of the history of squabbles which are essentially about access to London airports but disadvantage MAN in the process. Egyptair etc.

LAX_LHR, your initial point was quite clear to me, a rhetorical question - why is MAG doing this other than it must have an imperative i.e. a queue waiting to take up the vacated ZB slots. Absolutely.

[LAX_LHR]

Thanks Roverman,

It seems that based on posts here and private messages, most people did understand my point, it was actually quite a simple one really, but I just think there are a select few that just want to be awkward and argue a point for the sake of arguing it.

[MANFOD]

Agreed roverman. That was how I understood LAX_LHR's point. Urgency due to the known demand for the slots is probably heightened by the issue previously raised of the allocation of Terminals to airlines and the on-going TP work. Monarch were in T2 and if interest in the MON slots includes the likes of easyjet and Jet2 in T1, and possibly flybe and Ryanair in T3, then Terminal and stand capacity are issues that MAN will want to resolve as quickly as possible.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

MAN continues to grow in October.

Obviously the full impact of Monarch's demise has not yet been felt, but it gives cause to believe the trajectory can remain an upward one.

Rolling 12 month total: 27,732,67
October 2017 total: 2,404,521
Year on year growth: +3.1%

Still larger than STN in October, so reason to believe that position can be comfortably maintained while the Monarch capacity is back filled.

http://mediacentre.magairports.com/mag-growth-continues-into-the-autumn/

[LAX_LHR]

Passenger growth at Manchester in October was affected by Monarch ceasing trading, with year-on-year growth down from 7.4% in September. Monarch had accounted for 5.4% of flights from Manchester in September, averaging 250 flights per week. MAG has seen strong interest from airlines to take over the slots operated previously by Monarch so they can operate new services at Manchester next year".

Just highlighted the bit at the end as seen as some were asking for evidence MAN might have needed the slots for S18....

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Surely TCX or TOM will mop up the ZB slots.

[Plane.Silly]

Or EZY / FR / LS. All of who would probably love to expand further. LS in particularly announced last month an extra 250k seats for S18, so they'll need at least 2 a/c and 4 slots for that. Others also announced new routes to cover ZB, so imagine this'll be a bloodbath

[LAX_LHR]

LS unlikely to add more than what they already have, where would they get all these extra aircraft from (given they want to aggressively expand at STN and BHX also)

TOM, another one where I don't know where the aircraft would come from. Only one or 2 B787 due anytime soon and likely spoken for already.

Easyjet and Ryanair are ones to watch. Both have said they will expand in the wake of Monarch going down, but yet to show their cards.

Norwegian. Yes, they have just cut the MAN-Spain routes, but are rumoured to be looking at US B737 routes, and with fares already well up on last year to the Med resorts, could they be re-evaluated? They have told several people via Social media that at least Malaga will be returning.

[AndrewH52]

LS could just lease a couple of aircraft as they have done this year. Anyway, slots are one thing, terminal capacity (gates, stands, check in desks) is another. T1/T3 are already bursting at the seams at peak times. Unless you’re going to start moving other operators to T2 (at a time when capacity there is limited) how do you fit anymore based aircraft in?

[Nakata77]

is MAG offloading BOH or not?

[LAX_LHR]

How is T2 going to be so space constrained that it couldn't accommodate the slot usage when you are talking about adding in capacity that was going to be operational there in the first place? These slots are not for growth per say, they are for maintaining the status quo really.

[AndrewH52]

Last time I flew out of T2 most of the MON flights were boarding from remote stands as there were no terminal stands free. You have already posted pictures of the building site that is T2, and space is only going to become more constrained as the building work progresses (it's an inevitable consequence of work to an existing building - you have to take its out of service to join the new stuff on, which results in short term capacity issues).

There will also be constraints on landside as the works to car parks and the road network progress. MAG may actually be glad to have some breathing space in terms capacity for the next couple of summers.

[Scottie Dog]

Time for my monthly review of the CAA data statistics.......

Manchester Statistics - September 2017 (Part 1)

Destinations that are either new (no passengers since my records started in January 2005), or have not been served for a number of years - if the latter then the month and year of the last service is shown.

No new routes to report - although Kiev (Borispol) appeared as a 'one off'.

Only one domestic statistic is currently missing from the CAA report for September.

Exeter is missing from the initial monthly statistics for September. In September 2016 the flown passenger figure for this route was 9,724.

Moving monthly and annual figures - based on CAA statistics

Monthly passengers - 2,867,212 + 7.4%
Annual Total- 21,752,889
Moving Annual Total - 27,643,286 + 11.3%

Monthly Movements - 19,197 + 6.7%
Moving Annual Movements - 196,633 + 10.1%
 
Manchester Statistics -September 2017 (Part 2)

Top 25 destinations - by passenger numbers

PALMA............................................. 119,917
ALICANTE.......................................... 99,789
AMSTERDAM..................................... 85,337
DUBAI................................................ 84,634
MALAGA............................................ 78,347
TENERIFE (SURREINA SOFIA)............. 77,930
DUBLIN.............................................. 75,047
FARO.................................................. 66,420
HEATHROW....................................... 54,180
PARIS (CHARLES DE GAULLE)............. 52,143
BARCELONA....................................... 49,823
IBIZA.................................................. 48,949
DALAMAN.......................................... 48,755
ARRICIFE............................................ 44,695
ORLANDO.......................................... 41,910
FRANKFURT....................................... 34,813
NEW YORK JFK................................... 37,708
PAPHOS.............................................. 37,024
ABU DHABI......................................... 36,589
MAHON............................................. 33,700
LAS PALMAS....................................... 32,968
ANTALYA............................................ 32,339
MUNICH............................................. 31,968
HERAKLION........................................ 31,139
CORFU............................................... 30,072

CAA statistics for September are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - September 2017 (Part 3)
Top 25 destinations with highest percentage increase.

Destination......................................Total Pax....Schedule Pax....Charter Pax....Percentage change
BOSTON.............................................. 8,112............. 8,112.................. 0.................... 464.9
TOULOUSE.......................................... 6,291............. 6,291.................. 0.................... 203.03
MIKONOS............................................ 6,899............. 6,899.................. 0................... 182.05
OLBIA................................................. 5,685.............. 3,852........... 1,833.................... 106.28
OPORTO............................................. 8,730.............. 8,730................. 0..................... 106.24
HAMBURG........................................ 24,232........... 24,232.................. 0.................... 103.75
HURGHADA........................................ 8,940.............. 8,940.................. 0.................... 102.54
SPLIT................................................. 13,116............ 11,283........... 1,833.................... 100.03
KRAKOW........................................... 13,321............ 13,321.................. 0.................... 87.937
PERPIGNAN............................................ 159................ 159.................. 0.................... 82.759
SALONIKA......................................... 10,243.............. 7,421............ 2,822.................... 75.184
CATANIA (FONTANAROSSA)............... 7,418.............. 5,949............ 1,469.................... 73.035
ILHA DO SAL CAPE VERDE.................. 5,331............... 5,331................... 0..................... 70.92
DUBROVNIK...................................... 18,279............ 18,279................... 0..................... 69.156
RENNES.................................................. 189................. 189................... 0..................... 56.198
LOS ANGELES...................................... 7,229.............. 7,229................... 0..................... 52.607
BEZIERS............................................... 4,060............... 4,060.................. 0.................... 51.21
GERONA............................................ 15,016............ 10,491........... 4,525.................... 50.748
GLASGOW........................................... 5,619............... 5,619.................. 0.................... 48,927
NEWQUAY.......................................... 8,726............... 8,726 .................. 0.................... 42.489
CARCASSONNE................................... 4,371............... 4,371................... 0.................... 41.00
GDANSK.............................................. 4,398............... 4,398................... 0.................... 40.377
GIBRALTAR........................................ 10,865............ 10,865................... 0..................... 39.887
ATHENS.............................................. 12,101........... 11,703................ 398.................... 39.06
BILBAO................................................ 6,607.............. 6,607.................. 0...................... 38.686


CAA statistics for September are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - September 2017 (Part 4)

Figures for the European and long haul destinations that I consider to be the main points for our connecting traffic.

Foreign_airport……..Total_Pax 2016……..Total Pax 2017……% change
VIENNA………………….. 9,635……….…………….. 9,622……………….. -0.135
BRUSSELS……………… 18,016……………………. 18,704……………….. +3.8188
BEIJING………………….. 8,669 ………………….… 10,580.………………. +22.044
PRAGUE………………… 13,024……………………. 13,479…….…………. +3.4936
COPENHAGEN………. 30,980……………………. 29,103……………….. -6.059
HELSINKI………………... 9,790…………….……... 10,503……………….. +7.2829
PARIS (CDG)…………… 50,737……………………. 52,143…………….... +2.7712
DUSSELDORF…………. 18,278………..………….. 21,558……………….. +17.945
FRANKFURT MAIN…. 36,113……………………. 37,891….…………….. +4.9234
MUNICH………………… 33,314..………………….. 31,968………………… -4.04
HONG KONG………….. 10,028….………………… 10,581 ……….……… +5.5146
KEFLAVIK…………………. 9,294……………….…… 10,887….…………… +17.14
DUBLIN…………………… 77,996……………………. 75,047………….……. -3.781
MILAN (MALPENSA).. 17,321……………………. 16,653……………….. -3.857
ROME (FIUMICINO).. 11,632..………………….. 12,985……………….. +11.632
AMSTERDAM…………. 86,235…………………….. 85,337.……………... -1.041
ISLAMABAD……………. 22,445..…………………… 14,042………………. -37.44
LISBON …………………… 19,412…………………….. 25,214………..…….. +29.889
DOHA…………………….. 30,085…………………….. 28,496………………. -5.282
JEDDAH……………………. 9,002………………………. 8,208……………….. -8.82
SINGAPORE……………… 9,103………………………. 8,116……………….. -10.84
MADRID…………………. 13,607…………………….. 14,326………………. +5.284
STOCKHOLM (ARN)… 12,836…………………….. 16,805………………. +30.921
GENEVA…………………. 14,780…………………….. 17,383….………..... +17.612
ZURICH……………………. 8,855……………………… 10,026………………. +13.224
ABU DHABI…………….. 36,192……………….……. 36,589…..…………. +1.0969
DUBAI…………………….. 78,426.……………………. 84,634………………. +7.9157
ATLANTA……………….. 14,228…….……………….. 12,261………………. -13.82
CHICAGO…..…………….. 9,268……………………….. 8,686………………. -6.28
HOUSTON……………..………… 0………………………. 4,911………………. +0.00
NEW YORK (JFK)……… 34,284…………………….. 37,708………..……. +9.9872
NEW YORK (NEWARK). 8,874………………………. 8,511………………. -4.091
PHILADELPHIA………… 10,792……………………… 10,325……..………. -4.327
HEATHROW……………. 60,867……………………… 54,180……………… -10.99

CAA statistics for September are provisional.


Manchester Statistics - September 2017 (Part 5)

Comparison of top 25 destinations - September 2007 versus September 2017

Foreign airport...........................September-07...........September-17
PALMA.............................................. 114,582...................... 111,917
HEATHROW....................................... 80,047........................ 54,180
MALAGA............................................ 72,404........................ 78,347
DALAMAN.......................................... 69,108........................ 48,755
ALICANTE........................................... 68,506........................ 99,789
FARO.................................................. 65,083........................ 66,420
DUBLIN............................................... 55,441........................ 75,047
TENERIFE (SURREINA SOFIA)............. 53,553......................... 77,930
SANFORD.......................................... 47,954.......................... 7,073
AMSTERDAM.................................... 44,824.......................... 85,337
PAPHOS............................................. 44,034......................... 37,024
PARIS (CHARLES DE GAULLE)............. 42,838......................... 52,143
LARNACA........................................... 41,748......................... 23,153
DUBAI................................................ 41,653......................... 84,634
IBIZA.................................................. 41,442......................... 48,949
HERAKLION........................................ 35,361......................... 33,139
GATWICK........................................... 33,165.......................... 0
RHODES............................................. 31,299.......................... 26,670
MAHON............................................. 30,668.......................... 33,700
ARRECIFE........................................... 29,892.......................... 44,695
FRANKFURT....................................... 29,402.......................... 37,891
ZAKINTHOS........................................ 29,036.......................... 23,354
BODRUM........................................... 28,836.......................... 10,996
CORFU............................................... 27,802.......................... 30,072
MALTA............................................... 27,676.......................... 21,283


CAA are statistics for September are provisional.

[LAX_LHR]

The boarding from remote stands had been planned in for a long time, they wouldn't have gone to the expense of building the new bussing lounge of they didn't want it to be used.

MAN won't want to rest on their laurels getting the slots filled. The redevelopment has to pay off, that isn't going to happen if you turn airlines away due to the build.

As said, the terminal should be ok, it's just adding back in what was taken away, not over subscribing the stands they have.

[Skipness One Echo]

Passenger experience counts for a lot in my book, it's the main reason MAN T3 is my most hated departure point in the UK by a loong way. MON's departure allows some degree of breathing space to get the T2 development moving whilst trying to cram less into T2. Watching the arriving SQ A359 a few weeks back sit parked up for just under and hour and still be beaten to stand by company going the other way and a half hour behind them suggests summer peak will be tougher than ever in terms of stand capacity.
So MAN will likely take a revenue hit in the short to medium term without MON's based fleet, but from a customer experience standpoint it's a win-win.

[MANFOD]

Skip,it's reported elsewhere that some improvements are planned for inside T3 which should improve passenger experience.

As regards the absence of MON from T2, are you assuming that few of the MON slots will be taken up, or if extra based a/c are required to utilise some of the slots they can be accommodated by the carriers in T1 or T3? There has been discussion on the capacity issue previously that if, say, 4 more based a/c (compared to the 9 MON based) were needed by T1 airlines, whether it would require an airline moving all or at least part of its operation to T2. I agree that unless MON's 9 based a/c are replaced by 9 others, the net impact would be less based a/c so in theory less congestion at peak periods and a better passenger experience.

However, even this doesn't take into account natural growth that was planned anyway.
I understand easyjet and Jet2 were both planning an extra based a/c - unless that had changed.

[gojmc]

The T1 airlines may agree to bussing in order to stay and expand in T1. Jet2 had a number of remote stands over by T2 this year. As did Ezy in the summer peak.

There’s an argument that Jet2 could be the ideal airline to move. They use very few contact stands at T1 so being in T2 for check in and arriving pax wouldn’t mean much of a change to the stand plan.

[LAX_LHR]

For me, the best airline to move to T2 would be Thomas Cook.

They have about 16-17 aircraft based at MAN, but up to 8 of those are either long haul (thus not taking up overnight stands) or they are aircraft either arriving late or departing early, thus not taking up much stand time either. This means that they roughly match what Monarch had overnighting at MAN and thus less requirement for any split ops scenario.

They are probably going to move over to T2 eventually anyway to avail a possible USPBC, coupled with the fact the 'satellite' at the end of C-pier is likely to be the first part of T1 to be demolished anyway, it seems the best fit.

[Curious Pax]

The T1 airlines may agree to bussing in order to stay and expand in T1. Jet2 had a number of remote stands over by T2 this year. As did Ezy in the summer peak.

There’s an argument that Jet2 could be the ideal airline to move. They use very few contact stands at T1 so being in T2 for check in and arriving pax wouldn’t mean much of a change to the stand plan.

If they are comfortable with bussing why would they need to move? They have their own check in area downstairs in T1 so the airport wouldn't be gaining a great deal. What about Lufthansa? The Star Alliance airlines are spread over 3 terminals anyway, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[LAX_LHR]

T3 improvements started:

2 more security lanes being constructed.

2 shops closed and converted to seating areas.

Better single to be added.

[FFMAN]

For me, the best airline to move to T2 would be Thomas Cook.

Eventually yes fully agree, but where would you park 6 or 7 A330s all needing contact stands over on T2 whilst it is half demolished?


They are probably going to move over to T2 eventually anyway to avail a possible USPBC, coupled with the fact the 'satellite' at the end of C-pier is likely to be the first part of T1 to be demolished anyway, it seems the best fit.

USPBC would work very well for TCX because they could then move to T5 at JFK to be with their JetBlue partner thus avoiding a Terminal change as is required now.

[chinapattern]

AA continue to cut back, ORD will now run just June-Sept next summer! Still on the 787 but surely this ones on its last legs now.

[commit aviation]

I wouldn't be surprised to see split terminal operations in s18 for at least 1 carrier.
It won't be popular but when you look at the capacity created in T2 by Monarch's demise & compare it to the size of the other operations there is no obvious like for like replacement.

[Skipness One Echo]

AA continue to cut back, ORD will now run just June-Sept next summer! Still on the 787 but surely this ones on its last legs now.
Terrible news for all who remember this as a pioneering route in it's heyday. Thomas Cook's huge expansion into P2P long haul must surely not have helped.

[FFMAN]

AA are the architects of their own downfall at MAN -no sympathy or care for them whatsoever. Pitiful performance, out of date product (the 787 is too late) and now a summer only service - this is going only one way.

They should hardly be surprised when competitors exploit their complacency - that's business. I used to be OneWorld Gold, now I don't even have a OneWorld card.

Perfect time for United to step onto MAN-ORD?

[LAX_LHR]

When AA insist on using a clapped out B757 to ORD in the winter that requires a fuel stop at Bangor, Maine, they can't be surprised that the route then struggles pax wise too.

Was speaking to the ORD captain the other day, he said he was embarrassed that AA continue to do this.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Speaking to people in the know it's not just AA who are trying to kill the ORD route

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Very cryptic!

[Plane.Silly]

Regarding who should move to T2, it's already been discussed...
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599775-manchester-2-a-8.html#post9911728

[Curious Pax]

Not that cryptic I suspect (at least to long term readers of the Manchester threads on here)!

[Skipness One Echo]

Perfect time for United to step onto MAN-ORD?
Isn't this the same United that dropped the 777 on EWR, dropped the second daily B757 and then dropped Washington? Not sure they've got the traction in market at the mo.

Speaking to people in the know it's not just AA who are trying to kill the ORD route
Galley FM also had BA picking JFK up with 10 abreast B777s! Also BA were selling connections LHR-MAN-ORD. It's more of a different market now, remember just how much of the US legacy traffic was one stop to the House of Mouse and how many better options that has nowadays. Lot's more options on P2P too.

[Mr A Tis]

An intermittent 757 service must have also killed the ORD cargo market. Remember the days of full F/J/Y flights with full cargo belly on the 767. Complacency doesn't even cover it.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Not that cryptic I suspect (at least to long term readers of the Manchester threads on here)!

I would class myself as a long term reader, and have no idea whether it refers to Norwegian, United, BA, Level, TCX, Virgin or any combination of the above!

It should certainly give cause for either a new entrant at ORD, or additional capacity elsewhere.

[nguba]

AA pulling back further must make it more likely for BA to return to long-haul at MAN.

Willie Walsh said at the IAG Capital Markets Day that BA could return to the regions with the A321LR.

[Curious Pax]

I would class myself as a long term reader, and have no idea whether it refers to Norwegian, United, BA, Level, TCX, Virgin or any combination of the above!

It should certainly give cause for either a new entrant at ORD, or additional capacity elsewhere.

Any BA partner that has pulled out over the years, such as Qantas or Cathay has always been suspected of caving to BA pressure to protect fortress Heathrow. However in this instance the 321LR comment is interesting.....

[LAX_LHR]

I don't think there is much chance BA have 'meddled' this time. The regions can provide relief for Heathrow and the JV means they get the same amounts whether a pax travels via LHR on BA or direct to ORD on AA.

I think this is purely down to more P2P being available from MAN and thus the legacy hubs were bound to feel the pinch.

As for UA to EWR, some interesting seat plans showing up in one GDS starting 23rd May, so looks like they could be ones to benefit from AA pulling JFK.....

[LAX_LHR]

In other news:

Turkish Airlines to use B77W on the TK1995/1996 16th December.

Fair amount of A330 usage in December and January too.

A tower crane has appeared at the T2 site, pretty tall too!

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Willie Walsh said at the IAG Capital Markets Day that BA could return to the regions with the A321LR.

I've not seen that comment. However, Alex Cruz was less committal in his WTF interview. He didn't shut it down, confirmed they were looking at opportunities but that there was nothing imminent to report.

[FFMAN]

AA pulling back further must make it more likely for BA to return to long-haul at MAN.

That doesn't make any sense at all. Why would BA/AA/OneWorld trash their reputation at MAN (which thy have done) in preparation for a switch to BA equipment? :confused: Not going to happen.

Far more likely that BA/OW are trying to get the route trashed further so that it gets pulled and they can get the Cardholders down to LHR or across to DUB.

Reliability is critical to regular travelers' choice of airline or route. AA have just become totally unreliable. Is any serious flyer going to take the risk of a missed connection or a missed meeting? In my mind thinking about AA, it's a probability more than just a risk.

As someone who flies the Atlantic regularly and has done since the early 90s, AA have thrown away the advantage they enjoyed through their own complacency.

I use the front end of TCX when available - it's a decent product at a fair price and they have in JetBlue a partner / hubbing option that is very very good by UK standards.
I can tell you they are picking up a fair bit of business traffic and connections with B6 as well.
As in any business if you get complacent, someone else will come in and take the business from you - AA only have themselves to blame - but no doubt they will blame the market. Not their fault naturally.

[nguba]

What I meant was I don’t think BA would happy to have virtually no Oneworld transatlantic presence at MAN.

There’s a fairly decent Executive Club base in MAN which I think BA would want to leverage with the right equipment & cost base, which wasn’t the case 10 years ago.

[Skipness One Echo]

As someone who flies the Atlantic regularly and has done since the early 90s, AA have thrown away the advantage they enjoyed through their own complacency.
Not quite, their business model fundamentally changed. They killed the Pan Am / TWA model of feeding B747s at JFK to Europe by flying B767s from ORD/DFW/MIA directly and more often and in newer equipment. They had an enormous European presence which has since been downsized massively. The current business model, and one which does remarkably well for them is to code share on BA out of LHR both East and West. Hence MAN retains the ex US PHL route but ORD was left to wither on the vine.
As for UA to EWR, some interesting seat plans showing up in one GDS starting 23rd May, so looks like they could be ones to benefit from AA pulling JFK.....
So 789 or 772 then? Tell us, you know you want to......

[peppo_8787]

Rumors for Manchester-Palermo by Ryanair, starting summer 2018

[FFMAN]

The current business model, and one which does remarkably well for them is to code share on BA out of LHR both East and West.

Doesn't that just confirm the suspicions that many have of 'other forces' at work here regarding AA?

[Skipness One Echo]

Golly yes, it’s all BA’s fault as they hate MAN and are pulling strings at AA.
EVERYTHING is BA’s fault.
Especially the rain.
Grrrrr BA.
Now be honest, what’s the quid pro quo AA would get out of BA for dropping a previously good route? I honestly believe one should not attribute to conspiracy where incompetence is more likely.

[FFMAN]

Fair enough. Conspiracy aside (which I don't really care about) I prefer to make my decisions on the risks of missing a connection or a meeting. On that basis I stopped flying with AA around 3 years ago.
BTW when were you last on a TATL flight from Manchester? All this stuff about 'one-stop flights to the house of mouse' is pretty patronizing, slightly offensive and wide of the mark. I last flew Stateside yesterday on a near full A330 with no-sign of any potential mouse hunters.

[NWSRG]

Just a little word for the airport staff...as a regular user of Gatwick (fairly friendly) and Heathrow (anything but friendly), I have to say, the folk at MAN seem to be a cheery and helpful bunch. Passed through tonight, and they were a pleasure to deal with.

T3 is, however, a dogs dinner!

[Navpi]

House of mouse !
Florida or LA ?

My local airport is Stansted, it might be construed as catering for the holidaymaker and one might possibly throw Gatwick into the mix but take away pure business traffic from both airports and there is only airport which by a countrymile meets the needs of the leisure industry and that's Heathrow.

It might be dressed up as a business hub but if you want to holiday in Dubai, Bangkok, The Seychelles, Maldives, South Africa, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Australia, New Zealand etc, etc, etc there is only one show in town!

[Skipness One Echo]

Why is the fact that Orlando was once the biggest single onwards connection on the US legacies patronising? It made them a lot of money. Please don’t go out of your way to take offence.
Also, quizzing the 300 passengers on an A330 is a little unusual. Was the IFE broken? I just take a book.

If you were on TCX as you said earlier, then the majority for Disney would be on the MAN-MCO flight surely, the point here is TCX offer a better P2P option and hence take away the need to connect on a US carrier.

[chaps1954]

Perhaps you could type that in english Navpi are you saying that Manchester isn`t a proper international airport? if so don`t patronise us if it isn`t what you mean please explain because I have read and re read and it doesn`t make sense.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

Perhaps you could type that in english Navpi are you saying that Manchester isn`t a proper international airport? if so don`t patronise us if it isn`t what you mean please explain because I have read and re read and it doesn`t make sense.

I think Navpi is trying to say LHR's traffic is overwhelmingly leisure, despite its professed business credentials.

[Flightrider]

The thread continues its comedic ability to ascribe all woes at Manchester to "unfair" competition from LHR and other nearby hubs "robbing" Manchester of its rightful long-haul services.

When AA started ORD in 1986, it was one of (I think) only two scheduled routes to the US from MAN at the time, the other being BA's then-TriStar service to JFK. There were abortive attempts to fly LAX in the early 90s with the BA 767, but for many years, it reigned supreme as *the* way to fly from MAN to pretty much any US destination.

Fast-forward 30 years and you have multiple hub options including PHL, EWR, ATL, non-stop services by the bucketload to Orlando, Vegas and even Seattle, San Fran, LAX, Boston and Houston. All of those passengers either went via the likes of LHR before - or used the only non-stop hub service to Chicago. The proliferation of non-stop services will have an inevitable effect on viability of a not-particularly-well-placed hub service to Chicago.

American is prioritising Philadelphia as a more profitable, less congested and lower cost hub than ORD. PHL has the daily A330 and no sign of ramping back as they have at ORD.

The decline of ORD is a direct function of American's corporate prioritisation of the hub at PHL (their decision, and a route well served from MAN) and the huge growth of other non-stops from MAN to US points. It's not a conspiracy about diverting traffic to LHR or DUB, and it's risible to suggest so.

If you need any further proof, just look at the latest CAA stats. MAN-USA traffic in September was up 8% versus last year with an increase of over 14,000. MAN-LHR traffic was down 11% with 6,000 fewer pax. How can anyone possibly argue that MAN-USA direct services are being cut to divert passengers via Heathrow?!!

[Skipness One Echo]

@Dobbo Dobbo well yes, not a secret. It does much better in terms of %business per flight and yield than say LGW or MAN which is why airlines pay silly money to get slots.
e.g. China Airlines relaunching London on the A359 out of Gatwick with PR stating they are actively seeking LHR slots for 2018. Why? Beacause LHR is preferred to LGW on long haul business. Emirates fly high Y A380s out of LGW but not LHR. The fact that most people are going on hols in terms of % throughput is secondary to the ability to charge more in the front cabins due to market preference.

LHR DOES have business credentials in a way LGW lacks in exactly the same way MAN has over say LPL or LBA. Some good points though from posters!

[roverman]

I think if you wind back this thread about 3 years there was a general feeling being expressed that MAN-PHL was a dying route. It had been down-gauged from A333 to A332, and the announcement that Astra-Zeneca were shrinking the Cheshire research centre seemed destined to take away much of the premium traffic. Roll on to today and MAN-PHL is just about all AA have left at MAN but it seems to be doing quite well, with no suggestion it will be cut back or pulled. Times change rapidly. 3 years ago MT weren't even flying to JFK let alone SFO, BOS, LAX and (soon) SEA. We probably are seeing a long-term decline in the presence of US Legacies at MAN, which is a shame in a sense but the overall picture on the MANtlantic is good and growing, a case of the right product wins. Europe is different, where most EU Legacies have survived, some have even thrived at MAN despite the meteoric growth of the locos.

And yes, we do often blame BA or LHR-centricity when something goes sideways. There is some historical justification for that sentiment but it is time we let it go. After all, when the last 'Speedbird' departed MAN we were at 20mppa, now we're at 28m. Where would you rather be?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Astra Z isn't shrinking. BA killed the AA routes, same as they killed the ISB, LGW, where do I stop. It' so LHR-centric it's sickening.

[Logohu]

BA killed the AA routes, same as they killed the ISB, LGW, where do I stop. It' so LHR-centric it's sickening.

Really ? Sickening for who exactly ?
- BA/IAG and its shareholders ? No way, they're making loads of coin thanks very much
- The MAN catchment area ? Not really, they got lots of better options these days
- MAG ? Doubt it - probably glad to see the back of them in many ways
- BA die hards and avios junkies ? Maybe - but they've got all the BA options via LHR if that's what floats their boat
- The MAN plane spotting fraternity ? Definitely not - lots more exotic planes to see since BA left

As for Islamabad well BA haven't even flown from LHR to Pakistan for years thanks to security concerns and a state funded basket case carrier residing at the other end. And the ME3 mopped up whatever was left over.

And who wants to fly to LGW to connect with the BA beach destinations now that most of them are served direct from MAN ? If there was a local point to point market for LGW FlyBe would be doing it, but they seem happy enough with Southampton

[chaps1954]

Astra Zeneca did reduce at Alderley Edge when they moved a lot of R&D to Cambridge
but the gap left has been filled by many other small companies on the site in a centre of excellence so all in all the medical research has changed a bit and is growing again
hence PHL doing better.

[MANFOD]

If you need any further proof, just look at the latest CAA stats. MAN-USA traffic in September was up 8% versus last year with an increase of over 14,000. MAN-LHR traffic was down 11% with 6,000 fewer pax. How can anyone possibly argue that MAN-USA direct services are being cut to divert passengers via Heathrow?!!

Being devil's advocate for the moment, it could be argued that it's those very stats that make BA/One World keen to win back lost pax, particularly frequent flyers/card holders, by taking steps they deem appropriate. As it happens, I'm far from convinced BA's hand is at work here. The argument that it's more non-stop services to other cities by TCX/VS that have impacted adversely on ORD is far stronger in my view, a situation which has probably been accentuated by some AA incompetence.

There is though the question of whether Chicago is a city that could attract p2p traffic, business or leisure. I've only visited the centre a couple of times and that was 20 years ago, but I gather it is regarded as a fine city. The problem for leisure travellers is that the surrounding areas may not have the same appeal for fly-drive holidays and tours. Boston is a great city and has New England; SFO & LAX are very popular in their own right but then there is the superb California Coast to explore. And, well Orlando is Disney and Florida.

As an aside, from that perspective I was sorry we lost Washington. A capital city and with some great scenery and interesting places not too far away. But I digress.

[Betablockeruk]

No doubt Dublin 'is killing us'! Told someone to consider MAN-DUB-LAX as a winter alternate to LHR and now I'm greeted as a hero!

That Dublin pre-clearance is a bigger draw than we think and can support EI, AA and UA Chicago services!!

[chaps1954]

Not sure Dublin is killing us, it will always take some traffic but killing us is a bit strong.

[TURIN]

And who wants to fly to LGW to connect with the BA beach destinations now that most of them are served direct from MAN ?

Me for one. As far as I'm concerned the BA 'product' from LGW is far better than any of the charter/low cost options direct from MAN.
It is a PITA to drive down to LGW, park up for two weeks then drive back after a holiday but I will do it.

[CCGE29]

BA's short-haul product is the same as easyJet's. Why would you go all the way to LGW to fly to a destination served from MAN. And pay twice the price?

[LAX_LHR]

I think TURIN was referring to BA long haul preference, not short haul.

[FFMAN]

Me for one. As far as I'm concerned the BA 'product' from LGW is far better than any of the charter/low cost options direct from MAN.
It is a PITA to drive down to LGW, park up for two weeks then drive back after a holiday but I will do it.
You can't seriously be saying that the BA beach fleet at LGW is better than say the VS beach fleet at MAN? They still using those clapped
out triples? Last time I was on one I had to move seat because the one I was in was broken...despite being bodged up with duct tape.

[LAX_LHR]

Depends where on the beach fleet he is going.

If it's the Caribbean, then don't forget there are no summer flight options to the likes of Antigua, St. Lucia, Port Of Span and Bahamas. Winter only sees 1-2 weekly at most on some of those too. Montego Bay could also be another point but with just TUI offering it, might not appeal to all if they don't have your hotel of choice.

[OneBellEnd]

The whole Dublin set-up has to be an issue impacting growth at some significant U.K. airports - most notably Manchester.

Pre-clearance facilities are a nice thing to talk about, but they’re not all that! And the more flights using DUB over the Atlantic the less appealing and less beneficial the whole pre-clearance set up gets. It simply moves the bottleneck to the east side of the Atlantic.

The bigger issue is the ludicrous level of U.K. Air Tax, with the ostriches down at Treasury in London murdering the regional aviation industry in the U.K. - even Double taxing U.K. domestic flights - and herding passengers in the direction of Dublin, Amsterdam etc. Then history shows that when other economies overheat, notably Ireland a few years back, the self-same sages under the direction of No 11 write out a big fat cheque from the hard-earned U.K. coffers to keep those who have faltered trucking along in the manner to which they have become accustomed!

Why not, for instance, multiply air tax on traffic being diverted out of the U.K. regions over other EU airports in order to help offset a tax break to the industry - both domestic and international - at airports inside the U.K.?

Oops sorry - that would require a thought wave to drift north of the Watford Gap. Silly Me! ....

[FFMAN]

You're unlikely to be flying to some of those places in the UK summer unless you are vfr.
Most of the Caribbean is susceptible to bad weather in the summer and autumn (hurricane season) and much of say Antigua and St Lucia shuts down for the summer months. Thats one reason why MAN routes to these places will only ever be seasonal winter

[LAX_LHR]

Thomson fly to MBJ/POP/PUJ/CUN and until recently, AUA and MT fly PUJ/CCC/VRA/SNU/HOG/CUN and VS fly BGI in the summer, as well as the Gatwick leisure routes (inc some extra TUI), so clearly a fair few people are flying there.

[spannersatcx]

have you seen the clapped out 744's vs uses at MAN, if they are better than BA then BA are in trouble. oh another VS 744 AOG at MAN today!

[FFMAN]

Ok I surrender. I'm wrong. I'll try to fly more from LGW in future on those nice new BA planes instead of the almost dangerously awful MAN fleets.Its well worth the drive. Spread the word.:ouch:

[toledoashley]

I've just done LGW-MRU on one of those 'clapped out' 777's, and have to say it was absolutely fine. Been on worse brand new aircraft.

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

If VS actually replace the beach fleet B744s with the A35K (or even the A333) the difference will be might and day:

[Rutan16]

BA use their RR engined 77e frames into the Indian Ocean and these are actually among the youngest classic 77e frames on the planet just 7 years old in the case of G-YMMR and G-YMMS !

[MANFOD]

FFMAN, you are not alone I assure you.

A few years ago, we flew LHR-SFO in Economy (extra legroom seats) and SFO-LHR in PE on BA747s The next year it was MAN-MCO and MCO-MAN in Econ and PE on the VS 747.

OK, it wasn't LGW or the 772 beach fleet, but however old the aircraft were, we found the experience on Virgin was far more enjoyable. It would take a very big price differential or free upgrade to persuade me to drive all the way to Heathrow or Gatwick, probably with an overnight hotel, to catch a flight if the destination was available from MAN (20 minutes drive) or even with an option to change in the US.

I've not used them yet but several reports also suggest that TCX's premium offering is very decent for TATL from MAN and at a decent price.

Still, I'm sure BA are grateful for Turin's business and the government for the extra fuel tax they collect for the 400 mile round trip.

[j636]

Why not, for instance, multiply air tax on traffic being diverted out of the U.K. regions over other EU airports in order to help offset a tax break to the industry - both domestic and international - at airports inside the U.K.??

Oops sorry - that would require a thought wave to drift north of the Watford Gap. Silly Me! ....

Because if you did that, other countries would as well and cripple LHR. "forcing" airlines into such decisions will not result in a load of direct routes appearing. The consumer would just suffer and any influx of direct routes will go to LHR anyway if it was to happen.

TCX and eventually DY will be the dominant carriers at MAN in time. Hard to predict what VS will in terms of high freq services such as current JFK/ATL etc.

DUB may take traffic, but from what I gather the majority of UK transit is out of LHR. EDI has saw major growth in US traffic in recent years and EI also move big numbers out of EDI.

Perhaps if Manchester (city) and N West were more proactive in terms of tourism promotion like Scotland and Ireland are which will play a major role in ensuring US direct routes. It's tourists who fill a massive amount of capacity out of Ireland and Scotland and even London.

[canberra97]

have you seen the clapped out 744's vs uses at MAN, if they are better than BA then BA are in trouble. oh another VS 744 AOG at MAN today!

But VS have just had their entire 747 fleet totally refurbished so when you write 'clapped out' can you explain!

[Fairdealfrank]

The bigger issue is the ludicrous level of U.K. Air Tax, with the ostriches down at Treasury in London murdering the regional aviation industry in the U.K. - even Double taxing U.K. domestic flights - and herding passengers in the direction of Dublin, Amsterdam etc. Then history shows that when other economies overheat, notably Ireland a few years back, the self-same sages under the direction of No 11 write out a big fat cheque from the hard-earned U.K. coffers to keep those who have faltered trucking along in the manner to which they have become accustomed!

Why not, for instance, multiply air tax on traffic being diverted out of the U.K. regions over other EU airports in order to help offset a tax break to the industry - both domestic and international - at airports inside the U.K.?

Like most sensible and practical ideas this would fall foul of EU rules. And if you think that we're leaving, think again, the remainaic establishment will move heaven and earth to ensure that it doesn't happen (you can check out but you can never leave). Indefinite "transition" period anyone?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Me for one. As far as I'm concerned the BA 'product' from LGW is far better than any of the charter/low cost options direct from MAN.
It is a PITA to drive down to LGW, park up for two weeks then drive back after a holiday but I will do it.

BA don't do LGW. Gone are the days of the early 2901 that was very handy

[Jamie2k9]

On DUB traffic, majority is US originating and not coming from the UK side and if you put top transit routes into a league table only one US city generates robust demand to MAN and it's got a very low frequency currently ex MAN and no major US carrier based flying T/A (I'm sure people can work it out!)

Putting it into context LHR-DUB-JFK traffic is significant and that is with an hourly LHR shuttle.

[spannersatcx]

But VS have just had their entire 747 fleet totally refurbished so when you write 'clapped out' can you explain!
insides might be fine, the airframes are getting tired though, as long as the seat is comfy that's all that matters!:rolleyes:

[The96er]

only one US city generates robust demand to MAN and it's got a very low frequency currently ex MAN and no major US carrier based flying T/A (I'm sure people can work it out!)

errr, no, sorry, it's not that obvious !

[Rutan16]

Boston

it’s true through that the Dublin effect is overblown with just a Daily EI 320 and ATR from Manchester connecting to the TALC services with actually majority of passengers being Point to Point Dublin in reality.

OH and just under 1.5million total transit through Dublin from everywhere is it really such a threat.

Oh and EI aren’t joining Oneworld any time soon oh and they actually cut several regional flights to other UK regionals !

Fact is the Oneworlders remain routed via LHR in the main.

IAG aren’t merging EI with BA never were !

[TURIN]

BA don't do LGW. Gone are the days of the early 2901 that was very handy

Er, yes. thats why I have to drive.

[TURIN]

Ok I surrender. I'm wrong. I'll try to fly more from LGW in future on those nice new BA planes instead of the almost dangerously awful MAN fleets.Its well worth the drive. Spread the word.

I'm trying to get to St Lucia and back this side of Christmas. The best choice is from LHR on VS or LGW on BA. What should I do fly down and get a cab back?

[Rutan16]

Turin best option support local airport (add to the Man tally) fly down to LHR and then choose terminal change or coach link - they are very regular you know with National Express or Oxford Buses 24/7

[Wycombe]

The best choice is from LHR on VS or LGW on BA.

Are you sure? No direct flights to UVF from LHR as far as I know? VS and BA both from LGW.

[GavinC]

The airport has posted a lot of pictures showing TP progress on its Facebook feed. I had a look on the MAN TP website but they don't seem to be on there yet.

[canberra97]

Are you sure? No direct flights to UVF from LHR as far as I know? VS and BA both from LGW.

No need for a question mark as we are all aware that neither BA or VS fly to UVF from LHR it's LGW for both.

[roverman]

I am sure some clever person on here can extract the figures because whilst we are discussing leakage of US-bound traffic from MAN via DUB I do know there is a significant volume of US traffic transferring the 'wrong' way i.e. from DUB/ORK via MAN especially to Florida and Vegas. No doubt MAN has a better choice on those routes and the £/Euro rate helps.

[Wycombe]

No need for a question mark

Quite legitimate I think you'll find, as whilst you and I might know that it has to be LGW for UVF, the original comment suggested that not everyone does ;-)

[TURIN]

Indeed. I thought it said LHR on the Virgin route. Just goes to show, even if you are familiar with the industry you can still get caught out. :ouch:

[MAN777]

Thought I would offer my recent experience as it seems topical to the recent AA debate

Used the MAN - Philly flight to transit to and from Jamaica last week, it was full up front on both flights and appeared to be full down the back as well. Great flights and service, (actually quite surprised because Im probably a little spoilt by Emirates regular use). The only downside is the clearing immigration, baggage recheck and then backtracking through immigration again, both transits at Philly were really tight because of this. Not really ideal especially if your a bit on the wrong side of 60 or trailing young kids !

The MAN T3 experience was without fault although there wasnt many other flights around at the time !

[116d]

insides might be fine, the airframes are getting tired though, as long as the seat is comfy that's all that matters!:rolleyes:

You do realise VS have A350-1000's on order that will replace the 747's within the next few years?

[spannersatcx]

yes, but that's a few years away, so in the meantime.......

[canberra97]

You do realise VS have A350-1000's on order that will replace the 747's within the next few years?

Obviously that's a couple of years away and by the way there was no need for a question mark at the end of your sentence because you wasn't actually asking a question you were explaining so an explanation mark is more appropriate.

[Scottie Dog]

Well it is that time of the year and I thought that you would appreciate a few "heads up". You will have to bear with me if I am on occasions being slightly vague, but the information has only just been released and I prefer to keep some of the confidentiality in which the data is supplied.

We know that the demise of Monarch has resulted in the loss of 9 based aircraft. I am led to believe that between them EasyJet, Jet2, Ryanair and Thomas Cook and a certain Spanish carrier are looking to increase the number of based aircraft by 16 or more. That gives a nett increase of 7.

On the trans-Atlantic routes there is confirmation of the loss of AA on JFK and the reduced ORD service. VS to ATL and JFK remain a mixture of A330/B747 and there appears to be an increase in MCO that is offset by a reduction on LAS.

Keep an eye on both India and also increases on China and Pakistan routes/services.

Have a good evening.

[LAX_LHR]

Variety is the spice of life, isn't it Scottie dog (also Roverman will see what I did there haha).

[BHX5DME]

Looks like Spice Jet then ?

[canberra97]

I don't think any future announcement regarding possible Indian routes will involve Spicejet.

Spicejet have recently made an announcement that for now any thoughts of long haul expansion to Europe is of the cards and the airline will concentrate on their core markets and expansion going east rather than west.

There was an article that covered the announcement on ch.avation a couple of weeks ago.

Vistara on the other hand still intend on long haul expansion to Europe which more than likely will include the United Kingdom.

[Navpi]

I'm not doubting the "aspiration" but is 16 at one airport in isolation from others actually plausible ?

Would those same airlines not be also looking to put a similar number into eg Birmingham or some frames into say Leeds ?

OR is Manchester soaking up that capacity ?

If it's true re Manchester then surely there must be increases elsewhere.

On that basis where on earth do 50 / 60 737 A320s suddenly materialise?

[chaps1954]

Monarch, Air Berlin to name 2 that have a lot of frames sat around

[eye2eye5]

Today's Thomas Cook results advise that U.K. margins are under pressure. Dart Group results show flight ticket margins declining by 17%. easyJet results confirm that margins are being squeezed.
The demise of Monarch and Air Berlin should be opportunities for airlines to reduce margin pressures. It makes little sense to pile more volume into saturated markets as to do so will simply result in more failures.

[LAX_LHR]

Well, better tell the airlines to back off then, because if you could see what the airlines have added into the MAN systems, you'd think they have lost their minds.....

[Plane.Silly]

It's definitely been a tough time for airlines and margins due to over capacity. Normally you'd expect the demise of a carrier to alleviate these pressures, but what will actually happen (and as LAX_LHR points out, is already happening in MAN) is that everyone is adding capacity to grab the excess market share.

I'll bet one everything's on sale, there will be more capacity than before and again margins will be squeezed to claw that precious market share from the grasps of others

[LAX_LHR]

The fares are already a fair bit more next summer versus last summer.

An anecdotal example, I'm looking at an Alicante fare for a birthday party, and at the moment, it's £288 Rtn for the 2 of us in May. Last year similar dates were about £68 Rtn for 2, and we are no where near may yet.

The capacity due to come online will help bring the fares down a little, but it's interesting that a lot of the new capacity coming online isn't always going to replicate the Monarch loss. Monarch didn't serve Ponta Delgada, Tallinn or Genoa, for example.

All will be revealed in time, just because nothing has been made public, doesn't mean nothing is happening or likely to happen. Easyjet is going to be the big one to watch.

[AndrewH52]

Still can’t see where a net additional 7 aircraft (and associated pax) will physically be accommodated in the midst of a major construction programme. Unless of course the freight flights, ad hoc charters, diversions etc are going to be turned away?

Customer satisfaction levels are already suffering, this will not make it any better.

[LAX_LHR]

They are hoping to be able to get the apron around the back of the new pier down by S18 which will provide the needed stands. There should be about 6-7 new ones which don’t impede on the pier construction.

In terms of the customer experience, will still feel a bit tight for obvious reasons but work being done to try and improve it. More security lanes, removal of shops for more seating and so on.

[Suzeman]

I assume that all these tantalising hints about additional S18 traffic come as a result of the Slot Conference which was held about 2 weeks ago.

It is a well known fact that what comes out of the slot conference, when all the airlines finally get to find out what the competition is actually planning, is often a very different animal to what actually happens at the actual start of S18 with the clock change. In practice,operations are usually some percentage points down on what comes out of the slot conference.

We will have to wait and see what happens.

But the scale of bids does show how astute MA were in challenging the Monarch slot business to ensure that potential new operations were not stymied by not being able to access slots that were never going to be used.

[LAX_LHR]

Not just the slot conference, other bits of information too.

[Suzeman]

Well I hope they have managed / will manage to get the slots they require!

[LAX_LHR]

As far as I know it’s just terminal logistics to finalise and then the new routes can be released.

[davidjohnson6]

Thomas Cook Airlines seem to be selling tickets for flights on Mondays and Tuesdays between Manchester and Rovaniemi in June 2018
I could understand flights in mid-winter for the whole Xmas thing combined with reindeer, huskies, northern lights, etc, but June is not really Rovaniemi's peak tourist season

Anyone know the purpose of these flights ?

[CCGE29]

Looks like MAN is taking a trip to the Baltics next summer... with a number of new airlines that have been long awaited.

[CCGE29]

Will T3 be able to cope with an additional 6 aircraft from three airlines...?

[chaps1954]

David may be a reverse in that longest day 21st June, just a thought land of the midnight sun.

[MANFOD]

But the scale of bids does show how astute MA were in challenging the Monarch slot business to ensure that potential new operations were not stymied by not being able to access slots that were never going to be used.

And I understand KPMG won the appeal to sell the MON slots for LGW and LTN, underlining your point. MAN were certainly justified in being represented at the Judicial Review.

As far as Summer 2018 is concerned, I agree that much will depend on the level of slot hand-backs. Isn't the deadline normally the end of January?

[Navpi]

Suzeman

Is absolutely correct. The Old Testament, if that indeed is how we might describe it will be culled within an inch of its life.

The New Testament come Mar 18 will I dare say be a revelation !

Here endeth the 1st lesson.

[Logohu]

Article posted by CAPA on another forum discusses the reallocation of Monarch slots at MAN and BHX. I can't post the link but for MAN it states additional based aircraft from Easyjet(6), Ryanair(3), Jet2(1 extra A330 including some longhaul), a 2 aircraft Vueling base, and a third weekend BA Cityflyer. Plus new (or resumed) services from LOT, Croatian, Air Baltic and Tunisair. Oh and apparently slots also allocated for more unspecified flights from China and India.

Quite how MAG proposes shoe-horn that lot in is unclear ! And as others have rightly said it's only slot filings so plenty of time for it all to shake down before the start of next summer.

[chaps1954]

There are already 9 less Monarch so half way there except wrong terminal

[j636]

Will be amazed if easyjet put in 6 extra based aircraft. Ryanair and Jet 2 are more realistic and I suspect it's what easyjet will put in as well.

[LAX_LHR]

Don’t see why it’s so shocking, Easyjet pinned their flag on the MAN slots very early on, and didn’t exactly make a secret of it in the press either. Looks like they didn’t want to enter a potential bidding war at Gatwick.

Hire a bulk of the ex-Monarch crew, get 6 aircraft *0(I’m sure some are due for delivery, negotiate a good rate for split ops and off you go. Don’t forget this is technically an increase of an extra 5, as 1 extra frame was planned in before Monarch went bump anyway.

[j636]

Yeah I agree easy to fill them but a big investment when there is so many uncertainties. Not very easyjet.

[LAX_LHR]

Agree it doesn’t stick to previous form, but we are talking about the Easyjet that just took on 25 ex-Air Berlin aircraft which isn’t a small investment or small risk. We live in uncertain times, it seems that somtimes risks need to be taken..

[j636]

I don't think the strategy in Germany can be compared to putting 6 aircraft into MAN. I will call it and can't see more than 4. Time will tell in the new year.

[LAX_LHR]

We will see, but I’m merely pointing out what has been loaded in the system. There are actually 20 based now loaded in the system, clearly the intent is there, even if the full amount doesn’t make it into reality.

Looking at past Easyjet allocations, they do stick pretty close to what they apply for slot wise. S16 they used what they applied for, and S15. Last year in the initial allocation, they applied for 13 based aircraft looking at the ATM’s. By the time summer actually came around, it was 12 based. However, in Chroma, 13 aircraft were never loaded, just 12 plus the away base didn’t such as GVA/BFS etc. This time, 20 aircraft are loaded in as well as the usual away based GVA/BFs etc.

[Curious Pax]

Are they ramping up cities or sunshine, or an even balance of both? Be nice if the possibilities of day trips expanded.

[LAX_LHR]

2 routes I’m aware of are Genoa 2 Weekly and 6 weekly Nice. Mahon is highly expected. All other routes are protected as ZZF.

[businessair75]

easyJet is traditionally a very conservative airline. However, they have a clear (and well documented) strategy of becoming number one or number two at each of their bases. The Air Berlin deal was made to gain a greater foothold in the German market and explicitly to become number one in Berlin and specifically in BER, when it finally opens. The same can be said in MAN.

That is why 6 additional aircraft is not surprising. Whether that transpires to be the case with the slots having been returned to the slot pool, who knows.

[MKY661]

Shame EasyJet haven't increased frequency on the MAN-GIB route, definitely would fill up the gap lost from Monarch, unless there is another announcement due?