Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

[Pace]

I agree ! We must not forget that this man is a mass murderer no different to someone who hates his teacher and takes his anger out by shooting scores of kids in his school
The prosecutor discounted this as being suicide so you can only presume that this was a blind red rage / anger thing where his machine gun was an aircraft
We have one post after another giving sympathy and understanding to this mass murderer and no comments about the innocent victims on the flight! Men women children and what his Evil actions have done to them and their grieving families
I hope he rots in hell if there is one

[deSitter]

Having to confront the reality of another uniformed lunatic - one has to ask - do the screening procedures used for the uniformed professions have the opposite effect? Of putting off "normal" people and acting as a sort of inverse filter that actually increases the proportion of whack jobs? I for one would never even consider employment that required the use of a uniform of any sort, and I consider myself to be about as normal as can be, surrounded by normal, non-uniformed people. Let be a little more direct - I have known people in the uniformed professions - police, firemen, military, and yes pilots - and they all seemed to me a little abnormal, and I don't mean that in bad way in all cases. (The creepiest person I ever met was a cop.) I am saying - I do believe - that psychological screening is a fool's errand, and that really sick people are the ones most likely to be able to manipulate such a screening to their own advantage.

[Weheka]

I know its the modern day, new way thing, but what the hell is a person with 630 hours total time doing in sole charge of a large passenger jet with 150 souls on board? What happened to doing the hard yards, i.e. working your way up the ranks before you were given your chance on the big stuff? All the more time to weed out the potential disasters.

[35hPA28]

One sad aspect of this accident is that, from the moment the FO selected 100ft and locked the door, his career was over, one way or the other. Whatever motivation he had, be it dissatisfaction with his employer, financial difficulties or a spur of the moment impulsive reaction triggered by some remark from the CP would only increase tenfold if he decided to change his mind. The bridge was burnt. Maybe, just maybe, he may have panicked and frozen.

About passenger not being heard in the CVR except for the last moments of the flight, it can maybe be understood. You are in a plane that is supposed to fly over the Alps. If you don't know the area really well: how can you tell whether the plane is descending or flying over gradually higher terrain? Attitude? And of course, what would seem at first to be a stuck doorlock problem would take a little while to be recognised as the CP being locked out. Finally one adds 2+2 and it becomes obvious. The later, the better...

[Daniel Yuri]

What do you mean by whack job?

If you mean mentally ill people, they generally are only a harm to themselves, even those who have severe mental illnesses like Schizophrenia.

I think you might intend to mean narcissistic people, and they generally don't commit suicide.

[AtomKraft]

DeSitter
I take your point. I've met plenty of genuine eccentrics in the twenty years that I've been flying.
But who's going to do the job?

You?

[Vc10Tail]

Autism?
Epilepsy?

Partial incapacitation?

Halucinatory reaction due to taking undeclared anti depressants ?

All of the above assuming there is coherent evidence P1 was indeed locked out and that he was indeed the one banging at the door.

Does German Wings really not practice 2 crew seated in the cockpit policy? Due to operating with mininal cabin crew? Low cost driven?

How about now imlenenting cockpit CTV and an Emergency Door release policy that each cabin crew can access via SATCOM from their communucation panel to Security Chief?

[Fostex]

I agree ! We must not forget that this man is a mass murderer no different to someone who hates his teacher and takes his anger out by shooting scores of kids in his school
The prosecutor discounted this as being suicide so you can only presume that this was a blind red rage / anger thing where his machine gun was an aircraft
We have one post after another giving sympathy and understanding to this mass murderer and no comments about the innocent victims on the flight! Men women children and what his Evil actions have done to them and their grieving families
I hope he rots in hell if there is one

I never knew you had a sideline writing for the Daily Mail Pace :ugh:

Until the FDR is retrieved and there has been a proper investigation I will reserve judgement

[AtomKraft]

I'm sure 'the industry' will take measures to prevent this happening again. As long as it doesn't cost too much money.....

I like the US model, where an ATP needs 1500 hours. Nut jobs might be discovered by then, but it would cost money.

Better Terms and conditions, treating pilots with respect, might help, but that would cost money too. Right now pilots have the same status as fuel.

Stopping 'pay to fly' might help recruit better, more motivated pilots, who want to fly because of a genuine interest in the job, but it would cost money.

Putting a hostie in, while you take a piss: free. Will be done!

Personally, I try to never leave the cockpit. I'm paid as PIC to look after everything, all the time. Can't do it from the toilet. That's how I see it anyway, and isn't really a reflection on the F/O.

[3Greens]

You wouldn't be hypoxic though at the point the aircraft slammed into the hill.

[Daniel Yuri]

How does having two in the cockpit enhance safety?

There is an AXE in there for starters, one pilot could over-power the other, a purser... in my experience are by majority Women...

I'm just a SLF but my partner is an FJ, perhaps soon a purser. I'm sorry but having her in the cockpit won't enhance safety, unless her beautiful smile calms down the crazy pilot.

False sense of security which is being done by airliners simply to reassure passengers.

[NSEU]

His actions were 'half hearted' it wasn't an aggressive or expedited manoeuvre to crash the aircraft into terra firma,

As mentioned earlier, Airbuses won't allow expedited crashes (unless something has malfunctioned)

[FlyingTinCans]

As mentioned earlier, Airbuses won't allow expedited crashes (unless something has malfunctioned)

I can assure you, that the Airbus allows you to pull the speedbrake at top of desent

[Mr Good Cat]

I like the US model, where an ATP needs 1500 hours. Nut jobs might be discovered by then, but it would cost money.

Nut jobs would be noticed when they spend the first 1500 hours flying SOLO in single-pilot aeroplane?

[AtomKraft]

Good Cat
Yep! Personality disorders will likely surface in some way or other before you complete those hours.

[gatbusdriver]

The flight deck door has to go.

It causes more problems than it solves now. The fact is a flight deck breech, although a possibility, is unlikely to succeed due to the fact that passengers will not permit it to happen post 9/11.

If I were a terrorist organisation intent on causing harm using aircraft, I can now place a cabin crew member in the flight deck in 3 months at a lot less cost than trying to put a pilot in that position.

[Greenlights]

I see one solution :

that the regular doctor is in relation with the aeronautic doctor.

Meaning that each person must have a regular doctor, the medical (aeronautic) request his name, so they can exchange any major problems.

[oldchina]

"We are not getting the full story here"

Of course we are not. We are into day 3 of a long investigation. Two investigations in fact, as the French run a judicial investigation (who was at fault?) and the technical one (BEA: what was the cause?).
Even the prosecutor yesterday was at pains to say the CVR points to a deliberate act, not that the enquiry is over!

[piperboy84]

The airline should take a leaf out of the cop's book.

For several decades I ran a high tech company in California where the turnover of employees in there 20's and early 30's was high. On several occasions I got a call from the FBI, Los Angeles PD and LA county sheriff dept. wanting to stop by and chat about former employees who had moved on and were now applying for positions with the above law enforcement agencies. What was interesting was some of the folk they wanted to get a feel for had left my company several years earlier and had had a few jobs since but the HR dept at the cops still sent someone round to chat about what type of people they were. When i told the cop during the meeting that the person in question was a hard worker with good attendance etc. they waived that off and focused in on my impression of the candidates social skills and asked questions like "did they have ever hang out with other staff after work? i.e. go drinking or bowling or socializing etc. I realized they were looking beyond your usual HR **** and trying to get a read on their human skills and interaction. Maybe the airlines should look at this?

[rideforever]

Incredible slew of theories, each one reflecting the prejudices of the poster.

When Brevik killed those people in Norway, he left a massive trail, he had planned it for months. When Robin Williams died, likewise there was clear motive, it culminated a long period of difficulty. ME Terrorists likewise have clear reasons and history.

Here there is nothing.

Just another unexplained passenger plane crashing, ontop of the 3 last year.

The authorities want to sound definitive and in control.

How many doctors in their training take a bit of time out for stress and overload?

[Pace]

Interesting revelations on breakfast time television firstly that the co pilot took six months off flying suffering with depression and later was deemed unfit to fly at flight training in Phoenix
This was followed by a psychologist who described suicide and two types! The vast majority who blame themselves and self harm and the type who blame society and tge world for their state which turns into anger,
They are the type who will gun down a school yard of kids or crash a plane full of people as they punish the world for their sorry state
Interesting the pilots home has had many items removed for examination and it was announced that one item was very significant I am sure a lot more will unwind today

[BEagle]

It would appear that the CDLS 'LOCK' mode prevented the cockpit door being opened using the emergency access method.

2 crew members at all times in the cockpit is one solution; however, would it not be reasonable to change the CDLS so that selecting the 'LOCK' mode requires dual consent? Fit 2 pushbuttons in physical locations that cannot be reached by a single occupant, with a logic requiring that both have to be operated together before the CDLS 'LOCK' is activated - one CM must push and hold the 'consent' pushbutton on one side, then the other CM must press the other 'consent' pushbutton to enable the CDLS 'LOCK'.

Probably an expensive modification, but not unreasonable for an aircraft operator who does not require the cockpit to be fully manned at all times. Whether it's simpler to use sufficiently competent cockpit babysitters whenever one pilot needs to leave the cockpit is open to doubt - as that would probably incur training costs.

[Luke SkyToddler]

During my time working for a UK LCC, we had a cabin crew arrested by MI6 on suspicion of being involved in a terrorist cell. That person was a male, pretty strongly built chap, looked like a gym rat.

The guy brought me a coffee in the cruise on several occasions, was always friendly enough. Everyone was pretty amazed to hear the news.

Obviously a lot of "holy-:mad:" and "what-if" scenarios were discussed among the pilots in the days after his arrest.

We'll never know but I for one am very glad that there was NO policy requiring hosties to be left alone with one pilot at that time, because that would obviously have been the best time for the bad guys to attack.

What's the answer to that one, have TWO cabin crew up the front, one to supervise the other? Where does the paranoia end?

Bloody insanity, and I can't see an easy fix no matter how hard I look :uhoh:

[avrodamo]

All these airlines have jumped to the rapid conclucsion that the way to solve this is to put a member of cabin crew on the flight deck when the other pilot leaves. I take it then it follows that an assumption has been made that all cabin crew don't have any stress in their life and they would never carry out any action similar. So you're putting a random cabin crew member in a flight deck with a pilot strapped in his seat, and a crash axe within easy access. It's no different! It just another potential problem on the flight deck. It will solve nothing

[rantanplane]

I see one solution :

that the regular doctor is in relation with the aeronautic doctor.

Meaning that each person must have a regular doctor, the medical (aeronautic) request his name, so they can exchange any major problems.

Spot on , I heard that's not the case in Germany.
But one coul still lie to the the GP well

[ele]

For what is worth: yesterday night I asked a friend of mine who's a psychologist about this case.
He said of course (as any 'shrink' does) that 'you have to know the person', but added that if you want to commit 'suicide' you do it on your own.
If he chose to kill 150 people with him, he probably 'harbored a deep sense of hatred/resentment' towards everyone else. He added that 'you must know the person', again, but to him this seemed more connected to a psychotic unbalance than to a depression.
He hardly doubts that (previously) no one noticed anything 'strange' about this person's behaviour (that was also confirmed by another psychologist on TV, so I think it's true).
As others pointed out, I also am perplexed at seeing (too?) many people still in 'denial phase', not willing to accept or even consider the idea that this was really intentional (if the BEA made those considerations at the press conference they are certain, that I fully trust).
A big part of the German audience (I noticed reading comments yesterday) simply refuses to accept what the BEA officials said, to the point of being more concerned/preoccupied by the privacy issues related with the disclosure of the pilot's name (and 'oh, who will protect his family') than with the terrible act that's been commited (i.e. focus not on the tragedy itself, but on totally secundary privacy issues, and similar... like 'I do not want to face/accept it', let's speak about other details).

[captainsmiffy]

It would be easy on the A380 that I fly to solve this.....merely move the locking door down to the bottom of the cockpit-access stairs. This would leave the flight deck with a self-contained lavatory and therefore nobody requiring to leve the flight deck for a physiological break.

It also has the added atteaction of not having pax coming up those stairs to the toilet, right outside of the flight deck, as is the case now. Still cant believe that this is deemed acceptable from a security point of view. But let us not digress with a debate on this bit!

[Frequent_Flyer]

@ oldchina
Thank you for pointing this out. There are so many facts missing which the rainbow press actually loves. Read all about it - style headlines is what they live off. But on a serious note: This Co-P might have been on strong medication and as someone mentioned before, it can turn you into a zombie or maniac. For example, I knew a lady who took sleeping pills and as a side effect she would have dream-like states while awake, acting out her dream. After 30 mins or more she would snap back into reality. Another man I knew tried sleeping pills once and lost his ability too speak for an hour (these were side effects stated in the leaflet). The Co-P might have been on any kind of meds, even more so if we assume that he did suffer from some previous ailments, which could have rendered him zonked-out but breathing normally. I can't help but feel for him, as he is no longer there to defend himself. How many times has history proven that a scapegoat was just that and not responsible for the actions which were blamed on him? The investigation will surely look at his medical records, private belongings, conduct autopsies on PAX and crew etc. before reaching a conclusion. And from a perspective in the cabin: I've flown with many pilots, who during layovers talk about all sorts of personal problems, but they are capable of separating personal from professional once they put on the uniform!

[sharksandwich]

.. So you're putting a random cabin crew member in a flight deck with a pilot strapped in his seat, and a crash axe within easy access. It's no different! It just another potential problem on the flight deck. It will solve nothing
This is such a good point!

[Boe787]

GLOFISH,

Could not agree more,blame the pilots, while LH boss crying crocodile tears, while earning how many millions of dollars!!??

Given this tragic incident, it could well be argued that Pilots conditions have as much input into the well being of the Company than any over paid management!!

As a Pilot your every word in the cockpit is recorded, very few jobs have anything like this level of scrutiny!!
Were as for example, how many Patients have died on the operating table, because of one mistake by the Doctor, but try and prove it!!
Perhaps they should have video and audio surveillance when they operate?

[FlyingTinCans]

As others pointed out, I also am perplexed at seeing (too?) many people still in 'denial phase'

I think you will find most aviation professionals are in the 'let's have an investigation first' stage.

It's been 2 days, part of a CVR recording has been leaked, and the FDR has not even been recovered yet.
No one is categorically saying he didnt do it intentionally, we are saying lets recover all the facts and data first before we condem this individual and implement ill thoughtout procedures based on rash & misinformed judgement

[ExSp33db1rd]

Personally, I try to never leave the cockpit.

Not Longhaul then ?

[Skyring66]

Interesting to read the suggestions about locks and doors and procedures to stop one pilot from crashing the plane while the other's using the facilities.

Wouldn't it make more sense to accept that most pilots are fairly stable folk and aren't going to kill themselves and a hundred or more innocent people?

[PPRuNeUser0215]

@Beagles.

Not very useful when you are alone on the flight deck and your colleague who was outside, is being held by a terrorist demanding access.
How are you going to stop him coming in now ?

[up_down_n_out]

"Just another unexplained passenger plane crashing, on top of the 3 last year."

With all due respect, this is WRONG.
One of the so called "unexplained" incidents in 2014 was explained within seconds as the fields were full of kids toys and civvy jetsam.
The fact the people responsible for the murders lied + denied all, makes no difference to the train of responsibilities.

Here so we have some "hero" who wanted to get famous taking everyone out, (?)...

compared with proper pilots like Sullenberger, Lamanov/Noselov or Rodionov who try successfully to keep everyone alive.

[Vc10Tail]

Much as can be lamented about this tragedy and its shocking value I opt to stand by our colleague at the risk of being labelled a heretic....until we have ALL the factors exhaustively analysed...starting with the FDR.

GERMAN WINGS comprehends the detrimental commercial effects of not being in a position to account for an Air Disaster, as was learnt from unfotunate the MH.This apparent copilot suicidal theory might be a convenient scape goat (or not...)...one thing just does not add up..."the copilot's breathing was NORMAL till the end"...and that "he was 100% fit for duty" and yet storues are leaking of unwellness during training that had his duty suspended for 6 months...head scratching points?

[DirtyProp]

For several decades I ran a high tech company in California where the turnover of employees in there 20's and early 30's was high. On several occasions I got a call from the FBI, Los Angeles PD and LA county sheriff dept. wanting to stop by and chat about former employees who had moved on and were now applying for positions with the above law enforcement agencies. What was interesting was some of the folk they wanted to get a feel for had left my company several years earlier and had had a few jobs since but the HR dept at the cops still sent someone round to chat about what type of people they were. When i told the cop during the meeting that the person in question was a hard worker with good attendance etc. they waived that off and focused in on my impression of the candidates social skills and asked questions like "did they have ever hang out with other staff after work? i.e. go drinking or bowling or socializing etc. I realized they were looking beyond your usual HR **** and trying to get a read on their human skills and interaction. Maybe the airlines should look at this?

Very good point, thank you for sharing this.

[PassengerDan]

German news reporting that Lubitz had undergone treatment for depression for 18 months.......also speculation that he had big problems in his relationship with his girlfriend, which if true, will put her under the microscope too - poor girl.

[silverstrata]

Just an observation (as others have previously said).

In all of these accidents we are seeing the blame placed squarely on the flight deck. But who sets the regulations?

Who sets the impossible rosters, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who sets the impossible terms and conditions, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who decided to do away with company ab-initio training, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who thought it would be a good idea to saddle beginners with €150k of debt, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who let 200hr TT pilots fly a big jet, having done 30 minutes of stalling and spinning, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who let security strip-search crews daily, while refusing to treat their own staff in that fashion?
Who thought it would be an idea to have 'professional' pilots all on zero-hour contracts, and which authority let them get away with it?

When are we going to see the CAA in the dock, instead of the flightdeck? :ugh:

[AfricanSkies]

@LASJayhawk, tmac21:



exactly, LH CEO Spohr said this

of course there is a possibilty that an agitated captain misses his small time window to re-enter after the 5 minutes have expired

Excellent point. In fact it could be the key to this whole disaster. The cojo could have been incapacitated. I can't believe someone who is about to fly a jet into a mountain continued to breathe normally.

[DB6]

Silverstrata, excellent post. If only the newshounds thought so too.
They will - in time - but I bet there's huge political opposition to highlighting any or all of your points.

[2Planks]

In Post 1161 Denti said this:
Germanwings FOs are on the Lufthansa mainline pay, only exception is that the overtime threshold is higher. The entry level pay is around 68k €/year according to lufthansa management, they enjoy the full benefits of lufthansa. Yes, they have to pay back part of their flight training (60k) which is deducted from their pay in several different ways between which they can choose. Max level pay for an FO at Germanwings is around 130k/year.


There has been no sensible rebuttal of this. In my book this is more than a reasonable salary for a 28 year old - even with a large payback on his training to cover (and I acknowledge some individuals have much larger amounts).


We also have a major dichotomy developing. We have one team saying terms and conditions are a major contributor to pilot mental health and offering it up repeatedly as an excuse for this tragedy. Meanwhile the other team are advocating nobody should be allowed in a jet of reasonable size until they have 1500TT - the so called American model - where pay is dreadful, conditions are worse and as such have been cited in an accident report (Colgan IIRC).


But at risk of repeating myself - depression can hit anyone at any time for a number of reasons.


Oh and for those who still refer those with mental illness as 'nutjobs, nutters, psychos etc' please go back to the 70s where you belong.

[phiggsbroadband]

With so many airlines now insisting on the minimum of two in the cockpit, my bet is that there will be a rise in the number of 'Jihadists' applying for jobs as Cabin-Crew....

[FLYING COUNSEL]

I am not a pilot but reading this thread I am astonished at the professional pilots posting on this thread sheer unwillingness to face up to the proponderence of evidence before their eyes which is tending to show this as an act of evil perpetrated by the First Officer. Even for a non-pilot such as me, some of the possible (non-murder theories) are so implausible and are frankly clutching at straws. It is time that the professional pilots here started to face up to the shocking and disgusting reality of what one of their colleagues has done.

Whilst I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer and do know a thing or two about examining the available evidence. So far in this thread, I haven't seen any condemnation of this pilots actions by any of the posters rather and somewhat incredibly there is effort after effort to somehow offer banal nonsensical rant about possible contributory factors such as the terms and conditions of employment at low cost carriers and the undesirability of low hosted pilots sitting in the RHS of an airliner. Aren't you all forgetting what this First Officer did to all those innocent victims? Moreover, his mental health difficulties can never justify his actions.

[Klauss]

looking at the

PROSECUTER, I wonder whatever happened to aircraft accident investigators.
Gone with the wind ?

No more relevant, I´d say,
as GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT
seems to be the norm for TV , Press and radio.

...just my tow cents.

Note that the BEA accident investigating agency of France has nothing
on its website besides the initial report of 24 Mar. Today, it´s 27 Mar, 08:30z.
Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses (BEA) - English Homepage (http://www.bea.aero/en/index.php)

Regards,

[old-timer]

Well put Silvastrata, the pressures on flight crews theses days are extreme, in my humble opinion & it's easier to blame crew than the machine. This one will roll on for years no doubt.

[BRE]

@Rubberchicken:
anyone who wants to can watch a training video by Airbus on youtube

[Blake777]

There are some recurring pointless posts and themes now obscuring this tragic thread. Before refusing to believe anything or putting on rose tinted glasses, I suggest everyone review one of the very few truly enlightening and sensible posts on here, which was from Capt Kremin, who basically called this very early on logical grounds as per known facts. I do not know how to link his posts so reproduce one here, which if you are prepared to consider facts from an experienced Airbus pilot, is worth its weight in gold:


The bewilderment of the Lufthansa CEO regarding this incident is telling.

There has been no mention of any faults being revealed via ACARS. If you cut back to AF447 they were referenced very early in the piece.

The Lufthansa CEO would be apprised very early by his own people if any hint of mechanical problems was evident. But nothing so far except extreme bewilderment.

The aircraft was travelling at excessive speed; in excess of VMO. That is acceptable if you are on fire and heading for Nice or somewhere like that. This aircraft remained on track.

Travelling in excess of VMO in a A320 disconnects the AP and triggers the high speed protections which pitch the aircraft up. This aircraft did not pitch up. Which probably means it was being over-ridden by whomever was flying it.

That raises the possibility that the aircraft was hand flown all the way down.

That is ok if you are trying to get to an airport quickly but this aircraft stayed on track and headed directly for the Alps.

This aircraft did not capture any altitudes. Either the descent altitude was set below 6000 feet on the FCU; unlikely but it could have been done in error for the initial descent, or it was being hand flown.

Pulling open des on an emergency descent, provided a lower altitude is set in the FCU, in cruise engages the speed mode which would have captured the cruise mach, which then would have crossed-over to an IAS somewhere on descent. The autothrust commands IDLE and the selected speed is controlled by the elevators.
Therefore only way to achieve max speed is if someone sets it there. There is no reason to do so, and you certainly don't deliberately fly in excess of VMO. The high speed protections would be fighting against you.

Barring some sort of irrecoverable autoflight glitch, the foul play aspect will be increasingly looked at.

[gcal]

My only insight into the French legal/criminal system has been gleaned from watching detective and police series from that country.
It does however seem distinctly different to what a lot of people may have experienced or are expecting.
However that it is what is happening and we are going to have to bear with that
and try to understand.
There is no one standard or system even within Europe let alone worldwide.

[Blake777]

As for motive: we do not yet know. One thing is certain, a simple suicide does not kill 150 people. When someone kills 150 people they are making a statement. You can call them a terrorist if you wish - but it may be a lone act such as Breivik in Norway or part of a bigger "cause". Depression alone does not cause someone to kill 150 people, nor a desire to die for oneself. I suggest that time will tell in this case.

[DirtyProp]

As someone who is involved in the design and building of UAVs, this is an extremely bad idea on many levels. The day there is a "zero pilot cockpit" is the day I will stop flying as pax. It is, in my opinion, impossible to currently write software that will do the same job as a competent pilot. I don't think anyone suggested this.
What I envision (and I sincerely hope to be proven wrong), are airlines controlled remotely by ATC. A human on the ground in a control room will be at the controls, not a computer.
Unless someone can smuggle a weapon or bomb onboard, nobody will ever be able to hijack a plane anymore.
If this is really a suicide, the case for pilotless cockpits just got much more stronger.

[Dan_Brown]

Talk about idiots on camera giving away "trade secrets", as some will do or volunteer to say anything just to get on camera.

I have no faith whatsoever in a government to tell the truth, so I don't put too much faith in it's agencies. Remember the cover up of some evidence with the TU144, crash at Le Bourget in the mid '70's, later admitted by a retiree? I am not convinced we have heard all the evidence about the Concorde disaster either.

Too many vested interests at stake here also.

[jafa]

1. Suppose there was one of these low tech curved metal gadgets, keys we used to call them, overrides the number code pad, when you go out of the cockpit you take it with you. Having a system which can, through malfunction or otherwise, lock people out of the cockpit was always going to cause grief one way or another.

2. Suggesting having an FA in the cockpit monitoring the remaining pilot is dumb. They have no idea what is going on and most likely couldn't do anything about it if they did.

3. If this was deliberate, i.e. the co pilot was not in some way incapacitated, then it wouldn't have happened with the U.S. 1500 hour system. He would still have been flying a 402 at this point. If that.

[smiling monkey]

It is, in my opinion, impossible to currently write software that will do the same job as a competent pilot.

Perhaps you should talk to Mr Airbus? :O

[joy ride]

Some people have expressed doubts about what a microphone can pick up.

There are many types of microphone, and in my work I regularly use Pressure Zone (or "Boundary Effect") Mics, as well as standard "Omni-directional" Mics.

These are low cost and freely available, and do indeed pick up everything in a room clearly, and almost equally; thus they are superb for conferences, music and stage work. I do not know what type of mic is used in the flight deck, but miniature versions of all these mics are available.

Even with my fairly basic music/audio software I can enhance and process what the mic has picked up.

I see no reason to cast doubt on what was heard.

[MitrePeak]

I am not a pilot but reading this thread I am astonished at the professional pilots posting on this thread sheer unwillingness to face up to the proponderence of evidence before their eyes which is tending to show this as an act of evil perpetrated by the First Officer. Even for a non-pilot such as me, some of the possible (non-murder theories) are so implausible and are frankly clutching at straws. It is time that the professional pilots here started to face up to the shocking and disgusting reality of what one of their colleagues has done.


Maybe it's because the professionals are waiting to hear the FACTS after the formal investigation is concluded, rather than acting on all the 'facts' provided to us by the media and other unqualified sources.... Some of them wouldn't know an A320 from their a--- !

[SpoolingUp]

Its been reported that the Co-Pilot had 630hrs of flying time - is that Total Time or Time on Type? If its total time, which would be very odd indeed - what has he been doing for the last 7 or 8 years when that is typically what some pilots knock out in a year minimum?? Either way it looks strange to me!

[Mike-Bracknell]

1. Suppose there was one of these low tech curved metal gadgets, keys we used to call them, overrides the number code pad, when you go out of the cockpit you take it with you. Having a system which can, through malfunction or otherwise, lock people out of the cockpit was always going to cause grief one way or another.

2. Suggesting having an FA in the cockpit monitoring the remaining pilot is dumb. They have no idea what is going on and most likely couldn't do anything about it if they did.

3. If this was deliberate, i.e. the co pilot was not in some way incapacitated, then it wouldn't have happened with the U.S. 1500 hour system. He would still have been flying a 402 at this point. If that.
Agree with 1 & 2. Disagree with 3. Nutjobs can occur at any age.

[bentleg]

Sharksandwich - I think the objective in having a crew member in the cockpit when one of the pilots is absent is to have someone other than the pilot available to unlock the door.

[wrightnow]

Flying Counsel wrote:

"I am not a pilot but reading this thread I am astonished at the professional pilots posting on this thread sheer unwillingness to face up to the proponderence of evidence before their eyes which is tending to show this as an act of evil perpetrated by the First Officer. Even for a non-pilot such as me, some of the possible (non-murder theories) are so implausible and are frankly clutching at straws. It is time that the professional pilots here started to face up to the shocking and disgusting reality of what one of their colleagues has done.

Whilst I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer and do know a thing or two about examining the available evidence. So far in this thread, I haven't seen any condemnation of this pilots actions by any of the posters rather and somewhat incredibly there is effort after effort to somehow offer banal nonsensical rant about possible contributory factors such as the terms and conditions of employment at low cost carriers and the undesirability of low hosted pilots sitting in the RHS of an airliner. Aren't you all forgetting what this First Officer did to all those innocent victims? Moreover, his mental health difficulties can never justify his actions."

Obviously, you have already made-up your mind and concluded that, after 2 days of investigation and no FDR found, the evidence is conclusive. The authorities might as well stop investigating.
Well, I think they shouldn't. The stuff debated on this network is from and for pilots, who speak a language you may not understand. The concerns raised are real and confront us every day.
And for the record: if the FO took everyone down on purpose, even for this there should be an explanation.
So I suggest, you sit back, read (maybe take notes), and let us deal with the situation the best way know.

[Denti]

Its been reported that the Co-Pilot had 630hrs of flying time - is that Total Time or Time on Type? If its total time, which would be very odd indeed - what has he been doing for the last 7 or 8 years when that is typically what some pilots knock out in a year minimum?? Either way it looks strange to me!

Could be time on type or total time, the difference is at most 90 hours not counting his glider time.

Apparently he joined the lufthansa flight school in 2008, took a break in 2009 and returned after he was declared fit to fly again. At this time the economic crisis was in full swing and flight training was slowed down as much as possible. After that he worked in the cabin while he was on the waiting list for a flight deck position within the lufthansa group. In 2013 he joined germanwings as a student pilot and completed his MPL there (remember, the full MPL is only issued after the LIFUS phase is completed) and then continued to fly the line there.

[simonrennie]

Just watching the morning news as a bog standard PPL but with many many more hours than the commercial co-pilot! I am a tad surprised on two fronts a) that 2 people in the cockpit was not considered best practice by Europe when the USA did and strikes me as logical b) seeing the flight sim clip where you just dial in the height and say go, it seems odd with such clever systems you can dial in to "crash" when it would seem sensible it should not be able to fly itself below MSA etc unless in landing config accepting you can never completely prevent a very sad individual determined to kill 150 innocent people.

[cats_five]

To include video recording would require significant modifications - the recorders would need a huge capacity increase, likely needing a redesign, or the installation of an additional recorder. And a cheapo solution like a GoPro would be useless - the recorders are built the way they are, and installed where they are, for a purpose - crashworthiness - and assuring that purpose is NOT cheap.



The VCR doesn't have to survive, the recordings do - or the last 60 minutes or whatever. I agree it's not trivial providing another recorder and the connection from a VCR (or VCRs) to it, but it's (re-)using existing technology.

[Denti]

As mentioned earlier, Airbuses won't allow expedited crashes (unless something has malfunctioned)

Since OEB 48 everybody knows how to get around the protections, even those that slept through typerating.

[Green Guard]

Oblivia. Accidents like this will definitely accelerate your idea.
Sept11.... whatever happened or not happened there did complicate safety all over the world.

About cockpit door...why not have ONE master key per cocpit,
(even the one made by good old key-smith)
that would override locked door from inside ?!?!

[DirtyProp]

...at which point all that would be needed is either the codes for the remote control and/or a big enough radio jammer, and you've just affected ALL aircraft rather than just one. Yes, of course there's always this possibility.
It will most likely depend on the cost-effectiveness of one system compared to the other.

[FlyingTinCans]

FLYING COUNSEL
Whilst I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer

Yet you feel qualified enough to do the accident investigation from your computer seat, even though by your own admission you are not a pilot, engineer, air crash investigator?

My wife is also a lawer, so you should know that applying the law to convict or prove innocence is about presenting ALL the evidence, allowing a unbiased view of the facts both for and against to come to a conclusion.

Unfortunaltly Pprune gives people who are utterly unqualified to have a voice, which is why Pprune has and always will be the place NOT to have an educated discussion.

By all means read the posts, educate yourself in all things aviation if you wish, but don't post your 'expert' opinions based on what you have read in the Daily Mail.

[givemewings]

You give a pilot a key and you've just ensured that whoever wants to hijack the plane will kill him/her or any crewmember who has it in order to get in... you're basically saying go back to the pre-9/11 door system...


I may have missed it but they have 100% confirmed it was the PIC banging on the door?

[DaveReidUK]

1. Suppose there was one of these low tech curved metal gadgets, keys we used to call them, overrides the number code pad, when you go out of the cockpit you take it with you. Having a system which can, through malfunction or otherwise, lock people out of the cockpit was always going to cause grief one way or another.

The problem with a physical key, as with a keypad, is that the door has no way of knowing whether the person trying to gain access is a genuine crew member or a terrorist who has obtained the key/code under extreme duress.

It follows that the cockpit occupant(s) need to have the ability to unconditionally block access, if necessary. Making sure that decision is made by two people rather than one is probably the best we're going to be able to achieve.

[Mike-Bracknell]

Oblivia. Accidents like this will definitely accelerate your idea.
Sept11.... whatever happened or not happened there did complicate safety all over the world.

About cockpit door...why not have ONE master key per cocpit,
(even the one made by good old key-smith)
that would override locked door from inside ?!?!

Why not just go back to an unlocked cockpit door and rely on the fact that in this day and age there are going to be 149 other people on board who will not sit quietly and allow anything untoward happen?

[fireflybob]

Re pilots not feeling comfortable with opening up about personal issues for fear of losing their job, for many years BALPA had nominated members who you could call to talk things through and get advice. Am not sure whether this still exists but I always thought it was a good idea.

Maybe a sort of Samaritan service for crew would be a way forward to help pilots resolve these sorts of issues. The worst thing in the world is grappling with an issue and feeling that you can't talk to anyone about it.

[phiggsbroadband]

Latest reports on Sky News that... EasyJet, Monarch, Virgin, all Canadian Airlines, and all German airlines (LH.) to insist on minimum of two on the FD.

[Pace]

Flying Council

You also have to realise that a flying career is fairly Unique unlike your Career as a lawyer where you are paid a vast amount of money and can continue that profession into your 70s if you so desire!
How would you feel ? How secure would you feel if you had to trundle along on regular occasions for a medical where someone would look at you and say " sorry mate your law career is over "
Pilots are unique often away for periods of time in Hotels here there and everywhere! Have you ever woken up in the night with no clue which hotel or even country you are in ?
Aviation medicine has changed to accommodate more and more conditions
Mental illness is one and as others have posted most people pilots as well have issues at one time or the other very few would harm a mouse never mind another human being and take their responsibilities to others very seriously!
The last thing we want through this is that pilots are pushed further away to alternative medicine or other quango treatments for fear of revealing medical conditions and loosing their livelihood
So yes it's natural we will look for mechanical problems for a crash or for the usual pilot error or mismanagement as they are the overwhelming cause of accidents
This is something else which had horrified everyone pilots and non pilots

[IO540]

How secure would you feel if you had to trundle along on regular occasions for a medical where someone would look at you and say " sorry mate your law career is over "

They do have insurance for that, however. I used to know a Virgin pilot who had a standard £250k cover against losing his Class 1.

[before landing check list]

As before. People have been in the back and let it happen. Pilots in the USA are now armed. Not that being armed would have helped in this case.

[skridlov]

There would seem to be a limited number of items that would qualify as a significant find at the FO's home(s). It's too soon for an analysis of the computer content and no suicide note was found.

My guess is that they've found anti-depressants. One of the main questions that doctors ask patients who are commencing a course of SSRIs (Prozac etc) is whether they are experiencing any suicidal feelings.

One of the reported side-effects of SSRIs is suicidal impulses (obviously only in a limited - but statistically significant - number of cases).

That would fit the evidence so far released.

[mary meagher]

Some posters wonder what use to have cabin crew as the second person in the cockpit while the Captain visits the WC. What could she do, not knowing how to fly the plane? As Judd pointed out on post 1764, an attractive 19 year old girl may certainly be a distraction and a witness, and a friendly ear. I would hope that most cabin crew also know the right button to press to use the radio and send a mayday, which could be useful if it is a physical rather than a mental problem incapacitating the flight crew.

As for the difference in the assessment of people and their stability, 1500 hours in small aircraft, in a flying club of any sort will certainly make people aware of strange behavior, or unreliable types.

Other posters suggest airliners should be piloted like drones, by pilots sitting safely on the ground in control centres! NO THANKS! I remember the very first passenger, who persuaded a US Mail pilot to let him sit on the mailbags, back in 1920, or whenever Lindberg started flying the mail.
The US Mail pilot said to the chap, who needed urgently to get to LA whatever the cost or danger....."Well, if my butt gets there, I guess yours will too..."

[J-Class]

Flying Counsel, the tendency on this forum of denial of the possibility of pilot suicide is nothing new. When MH370 went down, early posts suggesting suicide as a potential motive were rapidly deleted. I don't blame the mods for this - the mods are pilots too and it is a natural human tendency to wish to protect the status of one's occupation.

The statistics from the WHO are that 350 million people suffer from depression worldwide. 5-12% of men will suffer from clinical depression at least once in their lives. A much smaller number will experience suicidal ideation. Pilots are people too and will not be immune.

Unfortunately copycat suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide) - where one famous suicide influences a cluster of similar suicides - suggests that the world may suffer an increased rate of these events, so on this basis the 'two persons in the cockpit' rule is welcomed (even though it leads to its own problems).

[rideforever]

You give a pilot a key and you've just ensured that whoever wants to hijack the plane will kill him/her or any crewmember who has it in order to get in... you're basically saying go back to the pre-9/11 door system...
We live in an era of instability and distrust. The economy is moving East, the ME has been at war for 20 years if not more, school killings are a regular event. Many want a confrontation with Russia now.

Doctors and Dentists btw are the profession with the highest number of suicides, and they are in charge of our health let alone flying planes.

Even in friendly Canada the security services want their laws relaxed so they can conduct "false flag" operations (Snowden leaks).

And everyone everywhere is under money pressure.

We are moving a long way from stability and sanity and trust. What kind of door mechanism we have is a little irrelevant.

[susier]

I hesitate to post but given the discussion over passengers' awareness of an issue apparently until close to the end;


Is it likely that due to the angle of descent, it would perhaps to a casual observer only seem that the cockpit door had malfunctioned and not that someone had sought to take control of the plane with intent to harm?


Even seeing crew trying to break the door might not automatically lead to the supposition of deliberate locking out, especially if the plane was still descending in a roughly horizontal manner. There have been prior door malfunction events quite recently.


It may only have been when the proximity to terrain became evident through the windows that people realised their lives were in danger.


Hope this is not unwelcome speculation, it just seems to make sense to me given the facts we know.

[AfricanSkies]

The cockpit door is for keeping baddies out. And it successfully does that.

If a pilot wants to kill everyone on board all he has to do is jump on a rudder at 200' (or at .78 at FL380) or close the start levers below critical height or hack his colleague to bits with the fire ax or or or or or. You don't have to lock your colleague out to prang the plane. So the two people in a cockpit rule is also worthless.

The door isn't the issue.

We're missing a vital part of the picture here and that's the FDR. Incapacitation is still distinctly possible in this case. Decompression still hasn't been disproved along with associated hypoxia. When that little light on the door finally went green for the few seconds it does, did the Captain catch it? Possibly wearing portable O2 mask?

I can't believe someone purposefully flew into a mountain breathing normally.

[weebobby]

susier how would 38,000 to 6000 ft in 8 minutes feel ?
not a steep descent but certainly more steep than the usual descent ???
The pilot may of started to get vocal as he could see where this was heading ?
As someone else mentioned i wonder if any footage might survive on SD cards and aid the investigation....

[twentyyearstoolate]

A question I have is where the speedbrakes used during descent? (Not familiar with A320 descent rates).

As simple and silly as this may seem, whether they were used or not would certainly add to the equation of possible intent.

[DB64]

Why would you expect breathing to be different? Have you experienced first hand people who are intent on killing themselves or others? It has already been stated by some people on this thread, with some knowledge of suicide, that a state of calm can descend. Detachment is common with some mental health conditions, where the individual is completely numb and unable to feel emotion; so normal breathing would not be impossible or even implausible.


Furthermore, whilst I understand the sheer incredulity that this act is met with amongst some posters leading to a questioning of the veracity of preliminary findings, which most likely will prove to be upheld when the rest of the evidence is collected and final reports written, I find some of the excuses being made and the using of it as an opportunity by some to highlight personal gripes about pay and conditions, in very bad taste (it has been pointed out more than once that the FO in question was paid well and works for a very well respected company).


I am not a pilot, but have a keen interest in aviation and have read every post from the outset. As Blake777 pointed out in #1846 and I quote, "Before refusing to believe anything or putting on rose tinted glasses, I suggest everyone review one of the very few truly enlightening and sensible posts on here, which was from Capt Kremin, who basically called this very early on logical grounds as per known facts."


I leave you with this thought, if your wife, child, brother, sister, parent was one of the poor souls on board, would you be so quick to dismiss the findings the evidence so far is pointing to?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Quick question. Did this lock do exactly what it was meant to do? It appears that despite there being the provision to enter the cockpit from the cabin this provision was in actual fact not available under certain circumstances? How many 320 pilots have passed this potential issue to the next level?

My thought is that post 9/11 the filter for bad should be on the outside of the aircraft and not on the inside. A kneejerk reaction created a double negative.

Surely what has happened in the last 24 hours is further kneejerk reactions that will potentially lead to further (but different) serious issues?

Looking forward to the FDR.

[Denti]

Are LH and GW Pay2Fly companies ?

No, they are not, instead they sponsor partly the flight training of their cadets.

But i guess if you have to ask a question like that that Air France by now is a P2F airline, could you point me to their pay to fly captains program please?

[NigelOnDraft]

The aircraft was travelling at excessive speed; in excess of VMO. That is acceptable if you are on fire and heading for Nice or somewhere like that. This aircraft remained on track.

Travelling in excess of VMO in a A320 disconnects the AP and triggers the high speed protections which pitch the aircraft up. This aircraft did not pitch up. Which probably means it was being over-ridden by whomever was flying it.

That raises the possibility that the aircraft was hand flown all the way down.Are you certain the aircraft was flown above VMO?

The only analysis I have seen was someone did a quick calc, and showed the aircraft at, or slightly above VMO. Their data (they said) did not include allowing for wind, and the wind that day (they said) was southerly.

If that is true, it raises the prospect the aircraft was flown at/close to VMO using normal AP modes?

[MrMacphisto]

twentyyearstoolate

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: A hemisphere
Posts: 86
A question I have is where the speedbrakes used during descent? (Not familiar with A320 descent rates).

As simple and silly as this may seem, whether they were used or not would certainly add to the equation of possible intent.
the answer to your question will be found when the FDR is located and analysed.

Everything else is pure speculation based on a non-accident investigators review of a CVR and uncorroborated and sloppy journalism.

[vanHorck]

BFMTV en Direct: regarder la chaine info en live - BFMTV (http://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/live-video/) reporting that X has been indicted regarding the leaking of information to the press, X potentially being the senior French military officer, listed as the original source of NYT

[WillowRun 6-3]

"Flying Counsel" - as a fellow member of the bar (not a pilot, but earning a second (Master's) degree in law, specifically an LL.M. in Air and Space Law) - I'm going to object to your post. First, even if all you have said is valid - which it most clearly is NOT - but even were it all valid, this is a pilots' forum, and if the pilots for whom it was created want to articulate disbelief while the facts are assembled and the cause-and-effect analysis is made, it is no skin off of any competent attorney's briefcase. Yes, yes air crash disasters are incredibly high-profile, politically charged events - but one of the ethics of the legal profession is to apply professional judgment, not emotion. Second, the hypoxia and/or other incapacitation possibility appears to be a valid one - in other words, although you can say that the flight did not arrive at its destination, you cannot rule out the hypoxia/incapacitation causal chain. So treat your hosts here with some respect, Counselor. ("Sustained.")

[pilotmike]

Apologies in advance if I have missed any vital pieces of information; I have tried to check the published information thoroughly before posting.

Some things are simply not adding up for me, particularly the 'evidence' supporting the theory that this was a malicious act by the FO. It seems that the FO has as good as been found guilty of murder without full evidence or any trial, however...

1. We are assured that the sound of the FO breathing (note: 'normally', not hyperventilating or panicked) is heard through to the end. Similarly, we're told that the Alt select can be heard being wound down, a seat being moved, and the door being opened and/or closed. Yet I haven't heard of any reports of the FD door being positively locked in the 'Lock' position, yet this should be clearly audible if these other faint sounds have been picked up. I cannot help feeling that this would be of sufficient importance to have been explicitly stated in the very detailed account offered by the French authorities of what they have heard. Some have questioned how breathing, described as gentle can be heard. I can assure readers that with digital signal processing techniques, including correlation and autocorrelation, signals significantly below the noise floor (ie completely drowned out by noise to the human ear) can be measured and heard, making the CVR a very rich source of audio clues that we wouldn't normally be able to hear. Few are aware that GPS operates by receiving signals sometimes 30dB or even 40dB below ambient noise levels (ie when massively swamped by noise which is many orders of magnitudes stronger than the actual GPS signal) by using this very technique.

2. Is the reported 'normal' breathing consistent with the alleged actions the FO is apparently guilty of doing? It gives the impression of being indicative of a relaxed, possibly incapacitated or even semi-conscious or unconscious person rather than someone knowing they are pointing at a mountain and about to die.

3. It has been assumed that the FO was conscious, if for no other reason than because he HAD to repeatedly re-lock the door after the 5 minute time-out. Have we had this explicitly stated by the authorities who know the facts or heard the CVR audio? If so, wouldn't this positive re-locking be clearly audible on the CVR as per my point above? However, the FO did not NEED to re-lock the door. If the Captain was preoccupied with banging on the door, as has been reported, it is entirely possible, even likely that he never made a (further) attempt to activate the access code as by this time his desperation to re-enter the FD would very likely be closing down options in his mind, to simply trying to smash his way in, just as we have been told. And wouldn't any attempt to re-enter the entry code be reported on as significant? A brief break in the door banging while a code is re-entered would be quite obvious on the CVR.

4. We are informed that the passengers were apparently unaware of the problem until the final seconds. By all accounts, the Captain made significant efforts to either gain the FO's attention, or indeed to break the door down. Are we really to believe that this all went completely unnoticed by the passengers?

Given these anomalies, I don't believe we have been told significant facts that have been revealed by the CVR. And it also seems very premature to judge the FO as totally guilty, as many have done so on this very forum, until the full facts are known. Maybe the media reports forced their hand, but I believe this partial revelation of CVR evidence combined with strong suggestion that the FO deliberately did this is not the way to handle such an important investigation as this.

[the_hawk]

A German ex-pilot said in an interview that the descent rate of 3000-4000 ft/min would mean a nose down attitude of 12°-15° and would have been noticed by the passengers (IIRC he even said "definitely noticed")

Can you pilots confirm this?

[birmingham]

It is always going to be very difficult to design procedures to prevent deliberate sabotage of aircraft. They will never be 100% foolproof and will often have the potential to create some of the scenarios they are trying to avoid. For example;

1. Any door designed to keep out intruders will always have the potential to keep out rescuers.

2. Psychological screening will never catch every risk and if taken to extremes exclude perfectly safe pilots.

3. As most cockpit doors open inwards a determined individual will always be able to overcome a pilot swapping places with an FA and get that door locked.

We must therefore be careful to be realistic about what can be done and what the industry will be prepared to do -

1. No airline is going to add a third crew member - although that would probably be the most effective way to prevent this.

2. No aircraft manufacturer is going to add double doors as specified by EL Al - although clearly they would help significantly.

3. no regulator is going to remove the requirement for lockable doors depite the fact they have the potential in certain circumstances to create the very scenarios they are designed to prevent.

So we all know what is coming

- Low to no cost, high inconvenience reactive measures ...

1. Procedures to swap pilots with FAs as in the US cost nothing - but make life operationally complicated and will never be 100% effective. Cockpit doors usually open inwards so a determined individual could always push out an unsuspecting colleague and lock him or her out. Has the US experiment prevented any sabotage attempts?

2. Increased psychological screening. This too will never be 100% effective. It relies in part on the individual not trying to trick the assessor and if practiced in extremes would result in many perfectly safe individuals being denied their careers.

3. Fatuous justifications - for example - "we know of no incidents that have been detected but how many might have been prevented". By such justifications we could ban almost anything from flying. i.e. The 911 guys had pilots licences so should we ban pilots - a ridiculous example but it is all about a sense of proportion.

... so my point in summary

If we are not going to do something because the cost is considered too high versus the real risk, let's not do it either if it causes daily inconvenience to crew and passengers and has very little chance of preventing future incidents

[Lord Spandex Masher]

No where near 12-15 degrees at normal cruise speeds. You're not likely to see more than 10 in an emergency descent.

[AirResearcher]

@Silverstrata 1817 - agreed, these are the issues that need to be raised urgently...

[offa]

We are very quick to sacrifice anyone in pursuit of a quick and convenient “answer” before moving on to the next big event.
The “evidence” so far leaked certainly points towards the right seat but this is only day 3 and the “investigation” already has the aura of a lynch mob.
We should remind ourselves how the family and friends of the MH370 captain were hounded after he was accused of having a flight simulator at home, marriage breakup, etc. when he was likely a totally devoted pilot trying to save his aircraft and passengers under impossible circumstances. The captain’s reputation was instantly ruined and I cannot imagine what his poor family was put though. Any apologies?
Far more important to get a quick answer and keep bums on seats than draw attention to something commercially damaging like having to ban carriage of cheapo Lithium batteries on aircraft?
There is a lot more to this investigation and airlines and authorities might spend time better looking into the relationship between GP and Company Doctor and themselves.
The initial training and 6-monthly SIM checks and line checks would normally reveal clues but they tend to remain hidden in our PC world and we just keep ticking the boxes and refrain from comment.

[rideforever]

With regards the door mechanism :

If someone outside inputs the correct or incorrect code, does it make an audible noise (a 'pip' perhaps) ? And likewise does the lock button make any noise ?

And if the person outside types in the wrong code, what then ? Is the door locked for 5 minutes before retry, or can he immediately retry with the correct code ?

[yanrair]

Ryanair pilots do a max of 900 per annum but only work perhaps half that in the winter. So 40 hours is not far out for a low hours flyer

[weebobby]

With this crash we are looking at around 4000 ft per minute
Pilots what is the normal rate of descent ?? I am guessing half of that ???

Would also be interesting to know if there was any other triggers on the DUS to BCN leg between pilots

[givemewings]

Not sure if it's a translation issue but this jumped out on the GW own press release:

26.03. 07.30 p.m.: Daily summary, 26 March 2015A few hours ago we thought last Tuesday was the darkest day in the history of our company. But today, Thursday, has been no less devastating.
We were stunned to learn today that the airplane we lost in southern France was to all appearances made to crash by deliberate act—presumably by the co-pilot. This is evidently the conclusion of the French investigative authorities who have studied the voice recorder that was recovered from the ill-fated Airbus A320. It appears that, once the plane had reached cruising altitude, the captain stepped out of the cockpit but was unable to re-enter it a short while later, as the co-pilot had bolted the cockpit door.

(Bolding mine)

Is this just a reslt of translation from German to English, or actually what they mean? because if so that is very different to denying entry via the normal method....

[DirtyProp]

If we are not going to do something because the cost is considered too high versus the real risk, let's not do it either if it causes daily inconvenience to crew and passengers and has very little chance of preventing future incidents The public will demand that "something must be done to prevent this" from the regulators.
They, in turn, will increase the regulations to appease the public and keep their jobs.

[fireflybob]

Quote:
How secure would you feel if you had to trundle along on regular occasions for a medical where someone would look at you and say " sorry mate your law career is over "
They do have insurance for that, however. I used to know a Virgin pilot who had a standard £250k cover against losing his Class 1.
IO540 is online now Report Post

Many do not have loss of licence insurance. Years ago this was a given perk with most employers who could negotiate block rates to get a better deal but not any more.

Like all insurances there are let out clauses and if you've not disclosed anything and this emerges when you make a claim you're not likely to receive a payment.

[NigelOnDraft]

With this crash we are looking at around 4000 ft per minute
Pilots what is the normal rate of descent ?? I am guessing half of that ???Work on 5x G/S ~2500'/m.

But any increase in IAS, speedbrake, reduction in HW would easily see 4000'/m or more in a normal descent. A descent at Max M/IAS will produce a high RoD, when compared to a fuel efficient, unrushed, comfortable descent.

[birmingham]

I agree that the French have not provided sufficient evidence to convict the guy.

All that has been released so far suggests that the aircraft was deliberately flown into the ground but not substantive proof of that. A review of its decent from TOC to crash makes that scenario highly probable however.

I assume they must have evidence not yet in the public domain in order to make such a claim for example from the tape or at the police search at his house. If they do not then I agree convicting him is hasty at best.

[Sky Wave]

To all of the non-believers I can't believe the prosecuter would have publicly blamed the FO if there wasn't sufficient evidence. I think that anyone who actually flies the A320 would understand how a CVR and mode S report can prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

Captain leaving the flight deck can be gleamed from the conversation between the 2 pilots, the seat moving and the door opening and closing.

If the aircraft had experienced any technical problem which justified a descent a chime or CRC would be heard. If there's no chime you have to ask why the descent?

I believe the Mode S shows that an altitude of 100ft was selected on the FCU and there's a corresponding sound of clicking when the selector was moved.

The door tone would be heard when the Captain tried to gain access (which I guess was very soon after the descent was noticed).

The chime for the emergency door code would be heard and if that is silenced before 30 seconds it's yet another sign of intent on the FO's part.

Regardless of the sound of breathing it's very easy to conclude this was a deliberate act by the FO based on the information available.

It's scary to think that a fellow pilot could do that, and I'd love to believe otherwise, however we need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[RedGritty]

I don't think we can assume that the CVR would clearly record the operation the small toggle switch for unlocking/locking the cockpit door. The small shielded switch is gripped between finger and thumb, has to be lifted up and then moved towards "lock" or "unlock" before returning to the centre position. Whatever sounds it makes would be small and might not be easy to distinguish from the sounds made by other switches or from other background noises.

[FlyingTinCans]

Confirmation Bias or Confirmatory Bias, is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.

It is human condition that pilots are trained to avoid, it is safer to DISCOUNT a theory/problem by proving it isn't there rather than looking for things that prove your theory, Air Accident Investigators also use the same ethos.

Can we discount Hypoxia yet? No we can't
Can we discount Pilot Suicide yet? No we can't
Can we discount onboard equipment failure? No we can't
Can we discount aircraft structural failure? Yes we can
Can we discount a bomb on board? Yes we can

Those who have already come to the conclusion that pilot suicide is the only probable cause are suffering from Confirmation Bias.

It may or may not transpire that this was a pilot induced accident, all we and many others are saying is it's too early to come to any kind of informed conclusion about what happened.
If pilots were as rash as sky news, the daily mail, all their readers and the majority of posters in 'Rumours & News' aircraft would be crashing on a daily basis

[DaveReidUK]

Are you certain the aircraft was flown above VMO?

The only analysis I have seen was someone did a quick calc, and showed the aircraft at, or slightly above VMO. Their data (they said) did not include allowing for wind, and the wind that day (they said) was southerly.

If that is true, it raises the prospect the aircraft was flown at/close to VMO using normal AP modes?

The published transponder data shows groundspeeds from about FL250 until impact that equate to around 330-340 KIAS in still air.

[justawanab]

I leave you with this thought, if your wife, child, brother, sister, parent was one of the poor souls on board, would you be so quick to dismiss the findings the evidence so far is pointing to?

DB64, I leave you with this thought, if your wife, husband, child, brother, sister, parent was the pilot being accused of killing everyone on board would you be so quick to accept the still inconclusive evidence of the sounds on the CVR or would you prefer to wait until the data on the FDR was analysed to determine, more accurately, whether this was or was not a controlled and deliberate act?

I know I would.

I'm not a lawyer, nor a pilot, but I am frequently a passenger and I'd certainly like to know that every piece of evidence has been investigated and re-investigated before any conclusions are made in this case so that I can be sure that next time I board an aircraft there is every reasonable chance that the cause of this disaster, whether it be mechanical, medical or psychological is unlikely to affect my flight.

[Denti]

The published transponder data shows groundspeeds from about FL250 until impact that equate to around 330-340 KIAS in still air.

Which is close to but below VMO (350kias).

[weebobby]

You cant win.....

People moan on here that on most crashes we hear very little feedback ( think all crashes in 2013 etc ) and claim conspiracy !!

On this one we are told the most probable reason for the crash within 48 hours ( admittedly prompted by a leak from France to USA ) and people moan and claim conspiracy !!

More details will come out as they had to rush out statements yesterday to confirm the reports going round the world

I am 99.9% sure we know the reason for this crash

Will it also make us take another look at previous crashes such as MH370?...

[rideforever]

If there's no chime you have to ask why the descent?If there's no chime you have to ask why is there no chime.
We do not know all the information clearly.
Can we hear anyone actually denying entry ?
Banging on the door is not the correct procedure for gaining entry.

[FlapsSlats]

10540's post 1864 (or thereabouts) I used to know a Virgin pilot who had a standard £250k cover against losing his Class 1.

raises an interesting anomaly.

Most pilots used to have Loss of Licence insurance – maybe some still do. This meant you would receive a payout if you lost your licence because of a medical problem etc.

However, completely unlike every other profession, it is impossible to obtain third party insurance as a pilot. In all other professions – doctor, vet, architect, lawyer – you cannot practice until you have this insurance.

Many years ago I tried to obtain it, even contacting Lloyds, but not only were there no offers, there was not the hint of interest in providing such cover – and this disaster clearly shows why.

The obvious solution in the profession of being a pilot was simply to always fly within the airline company's rules, and – just in case – belong to a good pilot's union who would be able to provide legal assistance if necessary.

I'm very glad to say that in my 40 years of flying (but 12 of them were in the Royal Navy which definitely doesn't have unions!), I never had the need to require any assistance from my union for any misdemeanour.

[Pace]

Can we discount Hypoxia yet? No we can't (95% Yes We can
Can we discount Pilot Suicide yet? No we can't (95% No we cannot)
Can we discount onboard equipment failure? No we can't (95% yes we can)
Can we discount aircraft structural failure? Yes we can
Can we discount a bomb on board? Yes we can

its not a simple yes or no

[birmingham]

Yes you and others have pointed out this very compelling argument.

It certainly indicates that someone in the right hand seat did it deliberately. The captain believed the FO was occupying that seat and alone on the FD. For an investigator the evidence will be regarded as overwhelming, but not yet totally conclusive for the purposes of an inquiry. Are we certain he was alone on the flight deck - probably - what we have heard so far certainly suggests he was - but I haven't heard the tape myself and therefore it is all third-hand at present.

I assume that even without the FDR there is plenty of evidence from the tape both published and not yet in the public domain which is consistent with that theory.

I also assume that they may have evidence from studying the guy's background and searching his house.

The way to finally get to the bottom of this is not just to establish what happened but why.

[Wader2]

Jesus wept. Nothing close to it. Five degrees nose down would be considered a bit extreme.
Just spun the numbers, 5 deg spot on.

[silverstrata]

Germanwings FOs are on the Lufthansa mainline pay, only exception is that the overtime threshold is higher. The entry level pay is around 68k €/year according to lufthansa management.



Sorry, I don't buy this €68k p.a. entry-level pay rate for Germanwings. That is more than I get as a captain with 20 years experience - on a Boeing.


This is what it is like for f/os in the US. The $20 an hour mentioned in this 2013 report, equates to $20 k p.a., in dollars.
The U.S. Airline Pilots Who Barely Make Minimum Wage ? Skift (http://skift.com/2013/08/28/the-u-s-airline-pilots-who-barely-make-minimum-wage)

And in 2013 ALPA gave entry level f/o salaries as:

Great Lakes $14,616
Silver Airways $18,693
SkyWest Airlines $20,064
Mesa Airlines $20,183
GoJet Airlines $20,504
ExpressJet Airlines $20,745
PSA Airlines $21,600

Anyone got the European pay scales? Is this €68k way off-base for the average in Europe?

[BigAl94]

Not looking good for Lufthansa Andreas Lubitz: Germanwings co-pilot 'deemed unsuitable for flight duties' during training - Europe - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/andreas-lubitiz-germanwings-copilot-deemed-unsuitable-for-flight-duties-during-lufthansa-flight-school-training-10137941.html)

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Sorry, I don't buy this €68k p.a. entry-level pay rate for Germanwings. That is more than I get as a captain with 20 years experience - on a Boeing.


This is what it is like for f/os in the US. The $20 an hour mentioned in this 2013 report, equates to $20 k p.a., in dollars.
The U.S. Airline Pilots Who Barely Make Minimum Wage ? Skift (http://skift.com/2013/08/28/the-u-s-airline-pilots-who-barely-make-minimum-wage)

And in 2013 ALPA gave entry level f/o salaries as:

Great Lakes $14,616
Silver Airways $18,693
SkyWest Airlines $20,064
Mesa Airlines $20,183
GoJet Airlines $20,504
ExpressJet Airlines $20,745
PSA Airlines $21,600

Anyone got the European pay scales? Is this €68k way off-base for the average in Europe?

You're in the wrong job/country.

Lufthansa German Airlines pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Lufthansa_German_Airlines)

[Denti]

Anyone got the European pay scales? Is this €68k way off-base for the average in Europe?

It is on the high end, but not unusual for a legacy carrier. But to be precise, i said in my initial post that this is the figure that Lufthansa management uses in the ongoing labor dispute. It does include contributions for pension fund, transitional pay and probably average overtime. The guaranteed minimum pay is around 59k.

Why legacy? Germanwings pilots (flying the A320 series) are on the payscale and seniority list of Lufthansa.

[TJW]

@silverstrata:

Entry salary for FOs at Germanwings is 60k€ p.a. incl. benefits. See FlightCrew Academy: FAQ - Flugschule für Lufthansa CityLine und Germanwings/ATPL Ausbildung (Ab Initio) (http://www.flightcrew-academy.com/index.php?id=26#c57) (German only)

[99-747]

Indeed the selected altitude was changed at 09:30:55 from 38000ft to 96ft. This is picked up by the ADSB/ModeS rader system which covers all of France. The noise of this switch change would have been picked up by the voice recorder and they would then have been able to directly correlate the SelAlt change wth the switch noise. This is why they are [almost completely] certain it was a delieberate act.

[slats11]

@ Dozywannabe

The Online OED in both UK/World and US English editions still defines "terrorism" as :
Quote:
Originally Posted by OED (emphasis mine)
The unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims
Now - whatever one may think about how the term "terrorism" was used and abused by politicians/arms manufacturers/security corporations in order to feather their own nests, it makes no sense to widen the definition further.

I respect your right to disagree Dozy. But legislators didn't just wake up one morning and decide they were going to change the definition of terrorism. There were good reasons why they did this. The goals and nature of terrorism have changed (and will likely continue to change), and this requires a broader definition.

It is not just semantics. If you want to charge someone with terrorism, the crime must satisfy the definition of terrorism. As the crime has become less specific, so must the legal definition.

But the whole point of terror tactics is that in doing so, there is an organised group with a distinct aim in mind, and the group is implicitly threatening further acts if those aims aren't met.

This used to be true Dozy. An event or a campaign focussed on a defined outcome. So hijack a plane and demand the release of specific prisoners. Or bomb London with the aim of an independent Ireland.

Its not like that anymore. Terrorism today is less well defined and more nebulous than before.

There is often no specific objective. Sometimes it is nothing more specific than violence and terror for the sake of violence and terror. Sometimes it is "against the west" rather than for anything more specific.

Attacks don't necessarily come from clearly defined groups. Terrorist groups today tend to be multinational decentralised groups that are continually merging and splintering in unpredictable ways. The line between "good" and "bad" is very blurred - your enemies enemy can be your enemy also.

There is no suggestion this was linked to ISIS or any other group. But ISIS has called for spontaneous acts of random violence carried out be lone wolves and in the absence of any clear goal. Ottawa, Sydney, and Paris appear to be examples of this.

At this stage we shouldn't rule anything in or out.


I've said many, many times (particularly in the many Tech Log AF447 threads) that as an engineer, one must always be cognizant of the bigger picture - specifically that when developing a technical solution to a problem scenario, it is invariably a bad idea to concentrate exclusively on that single scenario without taking into consideration the knock-on effect it will have on other scenarios. The post-9/11 flight deck door modifications and procedures fell right into this particular trap because they were tailored to fit a single scenario only - namely an attempt to endanger an aircraft from an individual outside the flight deck.

But I completely agree with you on this. We are now seeing unintended consequences of measures that were implemented in good faith to negate previous threats.

[elfary]

The FA in deck policy (when a pilot leaves) means that in addition to pilot and FO now any flight crew member can lock the cockpit if he is fit enough to knock out the seated pilot. That might cause more harm than it's trying to prevent.


To my (lack) of knowledge flight crew recruitment does not take the degree of scrutiny that pilot selection takes.


It's not easy to prevent a crash when the pilot wants to crash. Hence i tend to concur with Lufthansa CEO. As sad as it might sound.

[theaviationguy80]

in my opinion it would be interessting, if the co-pilot took any medical drugs like antidepressants. Sadly most spree killers was on antidepressants. I think it is very likely that he took those drugs.
This would be an possible explanation (for me) because i cannot understand or believe, that a well educated and intelligent person would do such a thing.
He was a young guy, smart, had a good job... it make absolutly no sense...he must be on drugs or something in my opinion.

[DespairingTraveller]

I know that this won't be a popular message in the midst of the current knee-jerk hysteria, especially on this thread, but as SLF, I am extremely disturbed by the idea that regulators and airlines seem to be falling over themselves to ensure crew are never left alone in the cockpit.

What that amounts to is an unequivocal statement that the aviation industry views every one of its FD crew as an unacceptably high safety risk if left alone.

Since they are there to protect me, and since I am absolutely positive that one of the FD crew, suitably motivated, could crash any aircraft they wished, whether or not they were alone, that is very, very worrying indeed.

Personally, I think it's yet another case of being seen to do something easy for no good reason except to appease the baying masses, but, if the concern is justified, I'd rather not be flying in that world.

[FWRWATPLX2]

How effective do you think it was?

The Germans took the old-fashioned military Flight Aptitude and Skills Test and made a REAL science of it and, what does it really and truly prove?

Considering how many men and women have taken to the air, since the Wright Bros. became airborne, December 14, 1903 . . . and safely flew from A to B, long before the DLR Psych Eval was even a notion, it makes one wonder about the true validity of the DLR.

When the former Jade Cargo assessment included the DLR, it was reported to have a whopping 44% failure rate! Without a doubt, everyone of those whom failed went on to fly elsewhere and achieved their own measure of success.

DLR - Institute of Aerospace Medicine - Personnel Selection (http://www.dlr.de/me/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5070/8492_read-14798/)

The DLR fails to recognise pilots are human beings. A cup of coffee and a good dump, before going to the assessment could easily account for a candidate doing well . . . or someone who is a bundle of nerves, failing to get a good night's sleep or deadheading to an interview last minute, rushing to get there, due to other work commitments being amongst that 44% whom failed the DLR.

Does anyone reading suppose Captain Al Haynes or Chesley Sullenberger sat for the DLR? Or, how about Erik Hartmann, who became the leader of the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) and the leading "ace" during World War 2, shooting down 352 enemy aeroplanes. Do you think he took the DLR test? Or, how about Medal of Honour winner and top scoring US Army Air Force Ace, Dick Bong, think he sat the DLR?

If any of you are not aware of this fact, during World War II, there were Kamikaze pilots whom refused to take the one-way flight? Suppose any of them sat for the German DLR.

It is a well known fact that the DLR Psych Eval can be practiced and trained for.

I dare suggest the DLR Pilot Selection Psychological Battery is a bunch of crap. It costs airlines a lot of money. It has likely cost some damned good pilots a job, unnecessarily. And, highly likely there were some pilots whom passed whom one would not trust to fly a kite.


Now, there is a lot of hand-wringing about what we're going to do or how we are going to prevent a similar scenario.

Two pilots to remain in the cockpit at all times, while one steps out to use the toilet.

Flight Attendant to enter the cockpit, while one pilot steps out to use the toilet.

Anyone remember FedEx Flight 705?

A super secret decoder ring to allow a crewmember to override or unlock the door.

When a pilot meets another crewmember for the first time, either in dispatch or on the flight deck, after the small talk, to check each other out, how would any of us know the real state of mind of the other crewmember?

There was a case in Shanghai of a Chinese First Officer who drove his uncle's taxi to work, ran a red (stop) light, killing a bride and groom and a motorcyclist, then went to go fly. Imagine flying with that guy! Do you suppose he told his Captain that he doesn't have a driver licence and just mowed down three people on his way to work?

Not sure there is an answer, but no doubt this event will ramp-up the the rules and regulations, another layer of employment screening, another layer of complete bull$h!t before we can get off the ground en route to our destination.

The world and aviation sure the hell has changed from the time I started flying, in 1978. No more fun. And, hardly worth the money.

[QDMQDMQDM]

I'm a GP and now work in emergency medicine. I have been qualified as a doctor for 24 years. I have worked in most specialties over the years, including psychiatry. I have also been a PPL since 1983.

If the copilot did indeed deliberately fly the aircraft into the Alps, as seems very likely, then that is at first sight completely baffling. If you just want to commit suicide, why on Earth would you want to take 150 innocent people with you? It's just not rational. And that's the thing -- this act was not rational, so therefore we have to look at what could plausibly make someone act in such an irrational manner.

In this case, it is actually very easy to see what could have made him act in such an irrational manner. We know he had a history of significant mental illness -- 18 months of what seems to have been fairly severe depression -- although we don't know the details. There has also been talk that he may have been in a situational crisis recently, precipitated by breaking up with his girlfriend. Against this background, it is entirely possible he could have developed either a psychotic depression or a brief reactive psychosis. Not all psychoses are accompanied by florid delusions and odd, thought-disordered behaviour. Some can be quite encapsulated and the person can appear normal in most respects:

Delusional disorder as a partial psychosis. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24421383)

So if he had an encapsulated psychosis for whatever cause, it would be easy to see how he could believe, say as an example, (and I'm plucking contemporary iconography out of thin air to create a random, ludicrous proposition, which is how the delusions of people with psychosis are constructed) that in order to avoid a war between Russia and the West he had to crash his aircraft and kill himself and everyone on it because he and they were all agents of Vladimir Putin.

It's crazy and very unlikely, but this whole event is crazy and very unlikely and mad people can sometimes have crazy and very unlikely delusions (though obviously the vast majority of them are not any danger to the rest of the population) and we do know he had a history of mental illness.

I can't help remembering the engineer I saw in psychiatry as a medical student. He held down a responsible job, but he had an unshakeable, encapsulated delusion that his bosses had implanted a chip in his nose through which they kept an eye on him. In all other respects, he appeared totally plausible and functioned very well. It was quite an eye-opener and I've been thinking of him a lot in the past few days.

This was not a rational act and you really don't have to stretch that far to imagine a scenario whereby it could have occurred. The more difficult question is how you might prevent such a thing again and there is no clear answer to that, especially as we are now learning these things are not quite so unlikely as we once thought. Having two in the cockpit at all times is no panacea. A sharp push on the control column at 100 feet could have the same effect as a descent from 30,000 feet.

To pick up every pilot who might fly his aircraft into the ground, you would have to have a screening test so sensitive that it would be totally non-specific, which means that you would end up screening out tens of thousands of pilots, maybe even hundreds of thousands. And that's if you can even decide what the risk factors actually are. By the very nature of the action, the perpetrators are not around to be interviewed afterwards and it's quite possible, indeed likely, that each case has a set of unique, unpredictable precipitants and characteristics.

[MrSnuggles]

Until we know more, please give the FO the benefit of a doubt.

Based on facts from Mr BEA and a prosecutor we know that

- FO changed his demeanor towards Capt during landing brief.

- Capt left the cockpit for some reason after that.

- Cockpit door was locked from inside.

- Breathing sounds are heard in the cockpit but no attempt to comms with ATC and no reactions/improper reactions to the immediate surroundings.

This could all be indicative of so called subtle incapacitation. It may have started with the change in attitude during the briefing. If Capt didn't notice this and went to the loo instead, it could have gotten worse until FO was unconcious or incapable of coherent thoughts - a hypoxia like state of mind.

Such things has happened before. Hypoxic pilots knows to descend if they recognise hypoxia. If there are other problems not related to hypoxia this won't help. Brain aneurysm? Heart infection (TWAR)? Blood clot/deep vein thrombosis?

Subtle incapacitation was one of the reasonings behind the Staines crash.

[Radix]

With the cabin crew knowing the code, the only thing that gives the "incapacitated" theory still merit is:

there is a possibilty that an agitated captain misses his small time window to re-enter after the 5 minutes have expired

However I cannot see how this would work. Why would the captain not be able to enter the cockpit after 5 minutes? The 5 minutes would just expire and there would be no 'small' time window, but an infinite time window to re-enter the cockpit. Until the ground was there obviously.

When did the 5 minute lockout start. That can be worked out from the CVR easily.

[FlyingTinCans]

Pace,

There are plenty of aviation accidents that have resulted in the crew flying the aircraft into terrain.
Majority were not pilot suicide but DID involve a pilot making, what he/she thought at the time a correct selection that would send the aircraft to the side of the mountain.

But if tabloid newspapers and 24/7 tv news have decided it was whole heartedly a suicide then why is Europe paying the BEA to investigate the crash?
They should just stop now shouldn't they?

[seniortarget]

Those that think having a member of cabin crew in the cockpit to replace one of the pilots taking a toilet break will make no difference as he/she could be easily overpowered are missing the point.
IF and that's a big IF the F/O committed this act it would have been far easier to do it once he was alone in the cockpit with a locked door behind him.
Having to overpower the member of crew sitting next to him would have been a deterrent just as it was a deterrent having a pilot sitting next to him....until of course that seat was empty.

[SLFplatine]

From BBC on-line:

When Mr Lubitz finished training in 2009, he was diagnosed with a serious depressive episode and went on to receive treatment for a year and a half, the German news site Bild reports.
Internal documents quoted by Bild and German broadcaster ARD say a note on Mr Lubitz's aviation authority file recommended regular psychological assessment.


I would just add that Germany has rather strict privacy laws and release of this information is ilegal

[No_Speed_Restriction]

I would just add that Germany has rather strict privacy laws and release of this information is ilegal

I would just say that this should have prevented him from obtaining a flying licence.

[PukinDog]

I find it troubling that so many self-professed "professionals" on here are tiptoeing around the F/O's documented history of mental illness and a system that allows such a person with that history person to hold a medical certificate of a class sufficient for a commercial pilot certificate to remain valid. Sorry (not) if that sounds "discriminatory" but in aviation, particularly for those involved in commercial/common carriage of passengers with no say who occupies the front seats, our whole careers are discriminatory in terms of performance and health standards that must be met.

But it seems some would rather co-opt this event as a vehicle to bray about their pet aviation peeves like pay, their opinions on what they view as "senseless rules" etc or further conspiracy theories. More incredibly, some view this as a fraternal issue in spite of the fact we know the altitude preselect was purposely set lower, that A/P entries must be made in order to begin a descent, and disabling the door entry keypad from inside the cockpit takes a deliberate act that requires operating a guarded switch.

If these things were done, I want no fraternal association with that person, mentally ill or not, who betrayed that trust and perpetrated this horrible event. 150 innocent people died folks, the secondary issues and "woe is me I'm an underpaid pilot" are irrelevant and somewhat disgusting.

[sunbird123]

If no chime why the descent?.Pilots do not just descend, they ask ATC for clearance. This was not done. No declaration of emergency either.
100ft approx was set on Altitude selector. Then descent was started.
ATC tried to contact ac with no reply. FO was breathing.
Captain outside heard trying to get in.
FO locked door.
No indication from AC that anything was wrong.

[99-747]

So why are the French authorities so confident that it was the FO who remained on the flight deck and how can they be so confident that the aircraft was deliberately flown into the ground?

because there is also the enhanced mode s radar data that gives the selected altitude - changed from 38000ft to 96ft, which they can correlate with a switch change noise, and also they know which seat moved - from the voice recorder

[MrDK]

Originally Posted by QDMQDMQDM http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france-49.html#post8920982)
If the copilot did indeed deliberately fly the aircraft into the Alps, as seems very likely, then that is at first sight completely baffling. If you just want to commit suicide, why on Earth would you want to take 150 innocent people with you? It's just not rational. And that's the thing -- this act was not rational, so therefore we have to look at what could plausibly make someone act in such an irrational manner.


Given the story that is apparently developing concerning who he actually was, maybe the question should be "Why stop at 149 innocent people?"
Certainly those developments seems to answer the question as the states of being rational or irrational.

[toffeez]

The last conversation on the CVR is the capt telling the FO he's taking a break and officially declaring the FO to be in charge.

[birmingham]

Seniortarget - agreed but it is a question of probabilities.

It is highly likely (though not certain) that this guy committed an act that is a possible (though highly improbable) act on any flight we might take.

Personally I think the risk of a pilot suicide/ pilot terrorist or whatever we call it while a possibility is despite this incident is still very low indeed.

If we try and introduce procedures for every possible risk however low then we will get to the point where inconvenience is overwhelming.

When I fly I am thousands of times more likely to be killed by the mistake of a well intention ed and concientious professional pilot than I am by a mad man. But I still fly because the risk is so small. Way smaller than the risk of the journey to the airport for example.

I know 2 on the flight deck can help mitigate this risk I am not sure that i personally would bother.

Obviously not my decision though - just a personal view

[Bernoulli]

QDMQDMQDM, thank you for your post. Some knowledge in this sea of speculation.

[ChickenHouse]

I would just say that this should have prevented him from obtaining a flying licence.
This sentence shows nothing but non-familiarity with german authorities. Some friends from Germany would even suspect that certain german authorities related to aviation overall show heavy signs of delusional mind, but they are not relieved from duty. Let us wait for the facts and hope authorities are not running amok against GA too.

[Uplinker]

There is no way of knowing which pilot selected the altitude or the descent mode*, unless they took manual control^, which is unlikely.


* There is just one knob to do this, (well, two if you include V/S), but both pilots use the same control(s) depending who is PF.

^ Then we could see which sidestick was moved.

[ana1936]

Reports that co-pilot had a sick note that meant he should have stayed home that day. Torn sick note found in Düsseldorf home.

[Lost in Saigon]

There is no way of knowing which pilot selected the altitude or the descent mode*, unless they took manual control^, which is unlikely.


* There is just one knob to do this, (well, two if you include V/S), but both pilots use the same control(s) depending who is PF.

^ Then we could see which sidestick was moved.

I wouldn't expect the sidestick to be used if you dial in a lower altitude. It is irrelevant anyway because the CVR confirms who was left alone in the Flight Deck.

[AirScotia]

The 'depressive episode / burnout' seems to have come very early in the co-pilot's career. I know that breakdown is not uncommon among new university students, who feel under intense pressure and are away from family support for the first time. Is this also a common feature among cadet pilots?

[PassengerDan]

German news outlet (Ard) reporting that according to German investigators, a sick note has been found that had been issued to cover the day that he flew the plane. They are saying he hid his illness from his employer. This is breaking news - probably not widely reported yet. Source is the ARD, reporting info provided by the prosecutor general of Düsseldorf.

[seniortarget]

Birmingham,
If you don't personally bother then you leave an open goal, if you stand if front of the goal you can't guarentee 100% success but you will reduce the risk of failure.
Security is also a deterrent, its a pain in the b*tt but I would rather have it than an open goal.

[angels]

As someone who is suffering from a spot of Black Dog at the moment I can assure you it's not a nice place.

There was an earlier post that mentioned people who are suited and booted and on their way to work who suddenly decide just to jump in front of a train. They didn't plan to. Something clicks -

"silicon chip within her brain,
goes into overdrive"

and they do it.

My speculation only, a sudden psychotic episode may have happened here.

[igs942]

I know it's a sensitive territory for discussion but should it not have been at this point that passenger safety outweighed patient confidentiality? Surely the person treating him knew of his profession.

[AR1]

Mental health and the workplace is a big issue, whilst we need to rehabilitate those (including myself) who have had problems, equally we need to ensure that the risk to others is mitigated. - But then the condition gets hidden, because of associated stigma and job impact. I came clean, and suffered accordingly, in fact it flat-lined my career for 10 years, you could argue it ended it, given that I'm now now mid 50's
Equally, during treatment, the urge to end it was overwhelmingly strong. I didn't conceive it as a selfish notion, it simply seemed like the right answer. - I used to visit a support forum, and took a break whilst overseas for about 2 weeks. Upon visiting it again, I found that everyone was wondering where I was, and saying hope you're ok. Confused I read back through the posts and uncovered a man I didn't even know writing stuff I couldn't comprehend. That was me, and that's mental health for you.

How do you screen for that.

[helimutt]

MrSnuggles, you state:-

Until we know more, please give the FO the benefit of a doubt.

Based on facts from Mr BEA and a prosecutor we know that

- FO changed his demeanor towards Capt during landing brief.

- Capt left the cockpit for some reason after that.

- Cockpit door was locked from inside.

- Breathing sounds are heard in the cockpit but no attempt to comms with ATC and no reactions/improper reactions to the immediate surroundings.

This could all be indicative of so called subtle incapacitation. It may have started with the change in attitude during the briefing. If Capt didn't notice this and went to the loo instead, it could have gotten worse until FO was unconcious or incapable of coherent thoughts - a hypoxia like state of mind.

Such things has happened before. Hypoxic pilots knows to descend if they recognise hypoxia. If there are other problems not related to hypoxia this won't help. Brain aneurysm? Heart infection (TWAR)? Blood clot/deep vein thrombosis?

Subtle incapacitation was one of the reasonings behind the Staines crash.

I think you're trying to say it could have been an alternative cause, but if that is the case, how come we are discussing his previous Depressive episodes and his sick note they've found stating he wasn't fit to fly that actual day? Are you saying that the depression and mental illness shouldnt be considered? It may have been harder to work out if he hadnt had any mental episodes surely?

[Basil]

4468, Basil

So you think someone suffering from depression is "a nutter"?
What would you call someone who tent-pegs the jet and murders 150 people?
IMHO, if they had prior knowledge of his condition, German Wings is in deep doo doo over this one.

[Whirlybird]

Apparently he hid current depression and sick notes from his employers. Recently posted on BBC website. Germanwings crash: Co-pilot Lubitz 'hid illness' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203)

[don't trust anybody]

Can any serving member of GW crew provide an insight into the relationship between management and crews. Is there a gulf between the two or are management seen as competent, approachable and fair? A good manager knows the workforce as individuals, knows their strengths and weaknesses and would be trusted with personal disclosures into their state of mind. Would GW management have been receptive to observations from AGL's collegues and positively disposed to follow them up appropriately?

[slip and turn]

Mirage seem to be based both just 60 miles to the west of 4U9525 final track (Base Aérienne 115) with main runway direction perpendicular to track, and even closer than that on the coast only 30nm west of track (Base Aérienne 125), where they also have a helicopter squadron which I offer may have included some of the machines seen at the crash site. BA125 seems to be a substantial test facility employing possibly 5,000 personnel. It also seems to have an important nuclear defense role. Parts of both bases are pixelated in Google Earth.

The Independent newspaper/website reported early on that the final descent took 18 minutes not 8, and that Mirage caught up with the A320. Did anyone ever get to the bottom of what that story was about ? Was it retracted or comprehensively debunked ? It is still out there (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanwings-plane-crash-airbus-a320-glide-to-destruction-took-18-minutes-not-8-10131891.html).

I am afraid I am as yet unwilling to buy the conclusive (sic) troubled FO story so prematurely offered by the authorities.

[up_down_n_out]

"How do you screen for that"

Is strikes me amongst all the emotion a singular cognitive dissonance.

This guy applied for the job.
He knew the conditions and chose them.

This day, this week he knew he was not allowed to work, deceived his employers and flew to Spain, pretending to treat it like any other day :D

There is a certain remorseless logic to all this.
It started with a criminal act on the ground that morning, (what is deception of your employers and wilful misconduct in a position of extreme responsibility if not that?), then finished with a criminal act on the ground that afternoon.

I feel as sorry for the Gendarmerie de Montagne, who have to pick out the gruesome decaying fragments of skin and bone day after day without throwing up.
What did they do, to chose that line of work, which someone at 10 000m had chosen for them? :hmm:

[kwh]

4468,
What would you call someone who tent-pegs the jet and murders 150 people?
IMHO German Wings is in deep doo doo over this one.

Only if somebody at German Wings marked this guy's card over his previous bout of depression, prompting him to try to conceal it this time and try to work on through it. if they put him under pressure in ways that led him to fly on when he knew he shouldn't have then they are indeed in the :mad:. If it is one staff member unexpectedly losing a private battle with the black dog at 38K feet then I can't see how they are responsible...

[birmingham]

RT quotes: Prosecutors said Lubitz did not have political or religious motives for deliberately crashing the plane

[gpsavd]

confirmed,
state prosecutor says:
http://www.sta-duesseldorf.nrw.de/behoerde/presse/Pressemitt/2015-03-27-PE-Flugabsturz.pdf


it basically says he was sick at the very day of the flight, but hid this fact from his employer and others.

[wheelsright]

There is so much speculation being repeated as fact. Many of the conclusions that have been drawn are likely scenarios, but are not by any means certain.

There is no direct evidence that the "captain" was locked out or that the key code was used twice.

There is no direct evidence that it was the captain that was trying to enter the cockpit, or if he was alone, or under duress.

The ES data may have been spoofed; it comes from an unofficial source.

No doubt the official statements strongly suggest that the F/O brought down the aircraft, but there are some loose ends that need to be tied up before this conclusion can be relied on.

[Blindside]

I flew to Brussels and back yesterday and it occurred to me that I was now viewing the pilots as a possible threat for the first time.

So my thought process in the last 20 odd years has gone from:


Admiration and considering trying to become a commercial pilot (got PPL etc).

9/11 happened and the job market was affected along with T&Cs eroded and working conditions negatively affected - I felt sympathy for pilots and glad that I didn't become one.

Some suspicion.


How this will affect pilots in general (and their mental health) if public opinion turns from admiration to suspicion within a generation? Status is extremely important to many people, hopefully this won't result in any repeats.

[archer_737]

What happened to the FDR? Did they find it already?
Aren't they looking for it anymore? Is a "noise of normal breathing" in the CVR enough to get all conclusions?

[Propellerpilot]

Ok - there is some new information that would explain a sound motiv behind the Co Pilots actions:

A search of the said First Officers appartment revealed a medical doctors statement, that he is medically unfit to go to work and that he would be so for a longer period of time. He decided to keep this to himself and not inform his employer, as it would be evident, that they would suspend him from flight duties indefinately. This confrontation was devastating for him, being an enthusiastic Aviator from a very early age and he felt his life ruined. Instead of staying home, as the doctor prescribed, he decided to fatefully go flying in this state of mind...

[ChissayLuke]

There is also much fact being repeated as fact.
For those that are willing to listen.
The state of this man's mental health worries me, that he was still able to fly. And to kill.
The innocent travelling public need better protection.
imho.

[averow]

Re pilots not feeling comfortable with opening up about personal issues for fear of losing their job, for many years BALPA had nominated members who you could call to talk things through and get advice. Am not sure whether this still exists but I always thought it was a good idea.

Maybe a sort of Samaritan service for crew would be a way forward to help pilots resolve these sorts of issues. The worst thing in the world is grappling with an issue and feeling that you can't talk to anyone about it.

We have this kind of system in my profession of Medicine. On a state wide basis such formal networks exist, staffed by such Samaritans that you mentioned. They are peers who volunteer for this on a part time basis. Anonymity and discretion are guaranteed. Unfortunately such networks cost money to administer and I am doubtful that any entity in Aviation (FAA, airlines, unions) would be eager to pay for it.

[TWT]

There is no direct evidence that it was the captain that was trying to enter the cockpit

Really ?Are you sure ?

[andyhargreaves]

Regarding the issue of torn-up sick notes, perhaps it is now time for compulsory reporting of these medical issues where people are unfit for work, especially in such critical professions as this?

[Basil]

kwh, Yes, I should have said 'if they had prior knowledge of his condition'.
Difficult to believe that he could have disappeared off work without questions being asked.

[HotDog]

I have a beautiful daughter aged 28, diagnosed bipolar; just returned home after three weeks in hospital after her third suicide attempt. Desperately trying her best to conquer the demons of her mind. It's an awful illness, yet to wait for a discovery of cure.

[deefer dog]

Latest news just about wraps it all up.

Now all that remains to be seen is the nature of the knee jerk reactions, and how quickly EASA will shut the gate now that the horse has bolted!

[PassengerDan]

How this will affect pilots in general (and their mental health) if public opinion turns from admiration to suspicion within a generation? Status is extremely important to many people, hopefully this won't result in any repeats.

As a passenger, my suggestion would be that you hold yourself in check and think about how many thousands of flights happen each day without a hitch. Just because 1 FO apparently has decided to deceive and destroy should not mean we now look at all pilots with suspicion. I booked my next flight yesterday and had not a second thought about doing so and will not have a single doubt in my mind when I board the plane that the pilot is anything but competent and professional.

[rantanplane]

QDMQDMQDM, thanks for you post. I had to work with a psychotic chap for some years. Exactly what you say and for me it looks like it may be very relevant here. Depression itself is not really the issue here, it is the psychotic side of human nature.

What I remember from Germany: there is a bit lack of understanding of mental illness, or psychiatric injuries, or psychotic behavior. Its all put in just one big bowl by the psychiatrists and they probably just prescribe drugs: fatal if you get the wrong stuff! Makes some mentally ill people really crazy and a lot worse - they change from depressive to psychotic because of the wrong drug. Then the psychologists only see the family background and childhood and they have no idea of endocrine disorders. Even worse, in Germany all needs to be absolutely perfect. The cars , the houses, the streets and of course your profession and career. That must be big pressure on people with understandable little problems. With that pressure the problems get bigger. Some people just have a psychotic predisposition, it depends on the stress and pressure from the outside if this time bomb is triggered at some stage in their life - usually between the age of 15 and 35. Often this predisposition never comes out and never will be discovered. This week it looks like the hole World became aware of one persons very tragic mental rush hour.

Let's hope all friends and relatives of the victims, including the co-pilot family, all witnesses and rescue staff on site, get the help they need in the next days, months and years to come.

[21Elite]

Depression is a mental illness. This should have put a big question mark over his suitability to fly a commercial or any other type of aeroplane. It would seem to me that Lufthansa/German Wings are culpable. They knew he had been ill and yet allowed him to take charge of a Commercial Aircraft and the lives of 150 people.

[Basil]

Andy, perhaps it is now time for compulsory reporting of these medical issues where people are unfit for work
In the UK it is.
Licence holder not to act a member of flight crew when unfit
32B(1) A person is not entitled to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered
in the United Kingdom if he knows or suspects that his physical or mental condition
renders him temporarily or permanently unfit to perform such functions or to act in
such capacity.
(2) Every holder of a medical certificate issued under article 32 who-
(a) suffers any personal injury involving incapacity to undertake his functions as a
member of the flight crew;
(b) suffers any illness involving incapacity to undertake those functions throughout
a period of 21 days or more; or
(c) in the case of a woman, has reason to believe that she is pregnant,
must inform the CAA in writing of such injury, illness or pregnancy, as soon as
possible in the case of injury or pregnancy, and as soon as the period of 21 days has
expired in the case of illness.

Andy later clarified:
I meant compulsory for the medical staff certifying a person unfit for work to report it to the relevant authorities for certain critical professions.

[Lazerdog]

Hopefully a full medical analysis will occur to see if he may have been using anti-depressive drugs of any kind. There are many research reports currently on problems with violent acts embarked upon after ceasing usage of some of the popular brands.

[birmingham]

If, when all is finalised, it turns out that the accident was caused by a seriously mentally ill man hiding his condition from his employers because he feared for his career our industry will need to enable doctors to directly report serious concerns.

[Jet Jockey A4]

I couldn't agree more!

If I had taken these tests I probably would not have become an airline pilot because I would have most likely flunked them.

Been flying commercially now for 37 years some of it flying a Dash 7 and a Dash 8 for commuter airlines prior to flying the FK28, 3 years of that based in France (LFPO) for a French carrier so I know how it works in France and how complicated it was then to become an airline pilot in that country.

Since then I went back to a very good corporate gig and I'm glad I left the airline world and I certainly don't have any regrets either.

Some of my friends stayed with the airlines but with all the ups and downs in that industry (pay cuts, mergers and companies closing down) and 9/11 some of them are completely fed up with their work environment are so looking forward to retirement.

It is just not that fun for them anymore and these guys are pilots that loved to fly, they had the passion in their blood and becoming an airline pilot was their dream and now they couldn’t care less about going to work.

Unfortunately for us and upcoming pilots, the industry changed so much in the last 25 years and I don't think it is going to get any better in the future.

[deefer dog]

Yes, and if the industry expect pilots to declare their fitness truthfully, the employers are gonna have to put measures in place to ensure that those declaring themselves unfit are financially protected.

[Kerosene]

We have this kind of system in my profession of Medicine. On a state wide basis such formal networks exist, staffed by such Samaritans that you mentioned. They are peers who volunteer for this on a part time basis. Anonymity and discretion are guaranteed. Unfortunately such networks cost money to administer and I am doubtful that any entity in Aviation (FAA, airlines, unions) would be eager to pay for it.

I mentioned earlier on in this thread that a 'Supervision' model as is practiced for example in the medical field is long overdue in aviation. We have had plenty of very hard lessons and learned from many of them, but not all. While technology and maintenance have vastly improved, we still believe that the humans at the controls should perform flawlessy day in and out without giving them much attention beyond checking their technical skills at regular intervals. This is not enough. We must also create good working environments, work patterns and a system that addresses the psychological needs of people.

Regarding the added costs, an old aviation adage springs to mind:"If you think safety is expensive, try an accident"

[wheelsright]

I am not sure that there is no direct evidence, but I am sure that it has not been made public if it exists. There is no doubt that the facts strongly indicate that this was a murder suicide by the F/O, but further facts are required to confirm this theory.

Clearly, the new revelations regarding the mental problems that the F/O was suffering go along way towards explaining his actions and a possible motive.

It would be interesting to know what drugs he was prescribed or were found at his home. It may be that he ODed on his meds.... this would explain his "laconic" interaction to the landing briefing...

I would not like to jump to the conclusion that he deliberately killed the passengers and crew; certainly the family and friends of the victims will not find it any easier to bear knowing that it was a callous brutal act of murder.

[Wader2]

What that amounts to is an unequivocal statement that the aviation industry views every one of its FD crew as an unacceptably high safety risk if left alone.


Exactly, but let me qualify that.

There are many jobs where the risk to a lone worker is deemed so high that two people must be present. Now the risk from any event concerning a lone flight deck worker should have required a second person to be present regardless of this week's tragedy.

You could argue also that long haul 3-pilot operations should have a very experienced number 2, a bit like a ship's officers.

[UAV689]

Does anyone know, if German Wings, offer sick pay? or was this a zero hour contract with no sick benefits. It has gone on long enough this, young guys saddled with debt, are being forced to fly as they will not get paid. Be it a head cold or more serious issues.

It has to stop

I hope this incident, becomes the 'colgan' of europe, and with the press assistance and coverage, help from unions etc, some of the rot can end. It is just a shame that the bean counters always win until blood is spilled, then it takes the media to raise awareness.

[andyhargreaves]

Basil, apologies, I did not make myself clear. I meant compulsory for the medical staff certifying a person unfit for work to report it to the relevant authorities for certain critical professions.

Andy,
In the UK it is.

This would, as others have pointed out, require reasonable sickness absence benefits to be in place for all concerned.....

[SLFplatine]

I flew to Brussels and back yesterday and it occurred to me that I was now viewing the pilots as a possible threat for the first time.

Blindside, next time you have this thought remind yourself that worldwide there are about 65,000 commercial airline flights per day

[wheelsright]

What is unfolding is that it is appearing more and more likely that the two crew members in the cockpit at all times rule may have been beneficial and perhaps avoided this incident.

However, it still remains true that it is near impossible to stop a determined pilot from intentionally crashing. But what of of a less determined and disoriented pilot? Perhaps in these circumstances it could have been prevented?

[Sober Lark]

If you keep Doctor A for your problems and Doctor B for your colds and flu and if Doctor A's records never makes it to your employers medical file then the medical certificate approval is flawed.

[xyzzy]

"There are many jobs where the risk to a lone worker is deemed so high that two people must be present."

Lone worker / dual control / segregation of duties are done for lots of reasons, but it's hard to think of many examples where the plan is that if A goes out of control, B stops them by force. Dual-key systems for nuclear release control are deliberately designed so that if one person refuses the other cannot physically perform the launch, but that comes at the end of a system of checks and screening that simply wouldn't scale out to "everyone with a pilot's license". And the two launch controllers are armed, which makes the "B stops A" part rather easier.

In finance, it's common to have two people present when there's a lot of cash around, but that's about witnesses and audit, and is gladly accepted by the staff as it protects them as much as protecting the institution. Segregation of duties takes that a step further and prevents one person from raising purchase orders and paying the resulting invoice (the most common form of fraud in business). Lone worker systems for security guards, prison staff and so on are about protecting the safety of the worker.

Systems which start from the assumption that staff might commit immediately dangerous acts and need to be stopped by other staff are probably impossible to design in civilian environments. Aside from anything else, because it involves authorising the staff to (in the limit) use deadly force against their colleagues. Taken at face value, this case raises very difficult questions, and the old adage that for every complex problem there is a solution which is simple and wrong leaps to mind.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Regarding the illness the FO is said to have "hidden", how many times have you read questions on here along the lines of "I have suffered depression in the past so should I avoid telling my AME?" The answer is NO every time. Tell them everything.

[bartonflyer]

One can only think that the passengers on the outbound flight were extremely lucky that the captain didn't (or presumably didn't) leave the flightdeck!

[kwh]

Depression is a mental illness. This should have put a big question mark over his suitability to fly a commercial or any other type of aeroplane. It would seem to me that Lufthansa/German Wings are culpable. They knew he had been ill and yet allowed him to take charge of a Commercial Aircraft and the lives of 150 people.

...and that is surely entirely the wrong response! We don't want people flying who _are_ ill, and the way to ensure that is not to make ever having been ill a bar to the career. Because if you make any depressive illness a career ender, nobody will ever report that they might be suffering from one again, and if you make the medical profession don people seeking help in to their employers, people simply won't seek help. You'll achieve an overnight 100% cut in the number of people who are known to have depression in their past flying planes.., and future depressed pilots will only ever be diagnosed in accident investigation reports...

[AirScotia]

Perhaps he suspected that his condition WAS going to be reported by his medical consultant - especially if he'd been ignoring sick notes for a while - and that having flown against medical orders, he would be fired, disgraced, and have his psychological problems exposed to his family and friends?

This might explain why discussion of landing arrangements at Dusseldorf where the trouble was waiting for him, caused his demeanor to change.

[Denti]

Does anyone know, if German Wings, offer sick pay? or was this a zero hour contract with no sick benefits. It has gone on long enough this, young guys saddled with debt, are being forced to fly as they will not get paid. Be it a head cold or more serious issues.

I can understand to take any opportunity to better the T&Cs in general. But in this case you are barking up the wrong tree. Not only was the flight training funded by Lufthansa (although he would have to pay back a portion once he got a job within Lufthansa, Germanwings is part of Lufthansa), his entry level pay was around 59k a year and yes, sick pay for up to six weeks is mandatory by law in germany and unionized carriers usually have longer periods depending of lenght of service for up to 9 months of sick pay. There is no repercussion to calling in sick. However, every pilot has to additionally be aware of Part-MED of the EASA regulation which could lead to being unfit to fly for a prolonged period of time.

[deefer dog]

It was reported that his demeanor changed to "curt" after the Captain discussed the "landing procedures." It would be helpful to hear more about this discussion, and what led the FO to respond curtly.

[Profit Max]

Does anyone know, if German Wings, offer sick pay? or was this a zero hour contract with no sick benefits. It has gone on long enough this, young guys saddled with debt, are being forced to fly as they will not get paid. Be it a head cold or more serious issues.

It has to stop

I hope this incident, becomes the 'colgan' of europe, and with the press assistance and coverage, help from unions etc, some of the rot can end. It is just a shame that the bean counters always win until blood is spilled, then it takes the media to raise awareness.Not the right place or time to push your agenda.

Germanwings pays sick leave as any company would be required to. The first officers are well paid (around €60k p.a.), can repay their debt in small installments and have good union representation. Of course, management would like pay to be lower, and unions would like pay to be higher. This is Lufthansa you are talking about, not some dodgy charter or business jet operator, and not a US regional airline either.

[Lizz]

If he has indeed relapsed in to some form of depression (or other mental illness) then I can understand the apparently torn up sick note, after years of fighting to recover and then finally doing well, admitting even to yourself that it's come back is an awful situation to be in.

I am also curious as to whether he was on any kind of medication. Even though I live in Germany myself now I haven't seen a doctor here regarding mental issues, I only have however in the UK and given societies stigma towards mental health as a whole I can't see the 2 being worlds apart. I was only ever given antidepressants at my worst, the odd referral that came to nothing but the main thing was 'take these pills and see how you are in a few weeks'. At the 3rd lot I tried the depressed 21 year old I was became hooked on the 'high' from venlafaxine until it just didn't happen anymore and I came down to earth with a massive thud, and, ironically it was whilst taking these pills that should have made me better that I wanted and almost did commit suicide.

Now granted I didn't nearly take another 149 with me at that moment but there were times even driving down the motorway thinking I could just swerve off, that could, had I of done it caused a massive pile up but at no point did I think about that, my only thought was that I just couldn't go on feeling that way anymore, noone really could or wanted to help. When you feel like that everything could be an opportunity or you could plan it down to the final detail, imo his actions if they were to end his life could have been a mere thought once upon a time of how he could do it and then on that day the chance presented itself, I don't think we'll ever know.

I am not justifying any actions (if this was even what the cause was) but I can understand the thoughts that could go through someones mind in that position.

I personally feel if anything should come out of this other than sticking cc in the flight deck when someone needs the loo is that companies and management NEED to somehow be more understanding towards mental illness.
At the same time as I mentioned above I ended up having to tell my employer to not lose my job and that was just awful. (I'll add that I was a pax service agent so no where near as much responsibility but I still had crazy shifts which don't help) My HR manager said 'we all have bad days' :sad: and I got no help or support, in fact they even prevented it so I can totally understand why he would not tell anyone.

[EFHF]

If, when all is finalised, it turns out that the accident was caused by a seriously mentally ill man hiding his condition from his employers because he feared for his career our industry will need to enable doctors to directly report serious concerns.
AFAIK the reporting requirement is already in place for specialized aviation physicians, who conduct aviation medical certifications.

General physicians and health care professionals are not in scope. There is precedent in mandatory reporting of mental health issues of patients to authorities (for example firearms licensing authorities), but these systems have two very serious concerns, which make them more harmful than beneficial:

1) Privacy and undue influence concerns. The health care professional cannot have access to the patient's licensing information and cannot rely on the patient to tell if she is in any special reporting category (firearms, security professions, aviation or other transportation, etc.). Which means that the HCP has to report every patient with mental health deficits to authorities, with most of the reports being false positives for the special category participation of the patient.

Even if the regulations mandate that all reports must be destroyed immediately, if no special category involvement is detected, it erodes the confidence of both patients and HCPs that the personal data stays protected. It also fosters a culture of distrust between the patient and the doctor, which is harmful to a stable treatment relationship.

In the undue influence category it also empowers the HCP to advance their own perceptions and ideals both about the patient or their background and the industry/special category. In the firearms case, anti-gun HCP may report a patient simply because she discovers the patient is a gun owner.

There are already cases of this, including characters such as a psychiatrist specializing in criminal psychology, who is also a city council member representing a leftist party and who claims as a professional opinion that every gun owner is mentally unstable because of gun ownership. And she gets to keep her job as a doctor, and her post as an elected official and a politician. Imagine for example a HCP, who has lost a loved one in an aviation accident. Or one who holds highly critical views of anyone in the security professions.

2) A person suffering from mental problems is inclined to hide said problems from his employer, or more specifically a pilot is inclined to hide his problems to keep his medical and license, but is able to still seek treatment from the general healthcare system. If he knows there is mandatory reporting, why do you think he would seek treatment at all, if hiding the problem from the employer and licensing/certification authorities is his intention?

Mandatory reporting will increase untreated cases and is likely to increase symptomatic people in cockpits. It will also increase false positives. It will also increase accidents resulting from illnesses unrelated to mental health, because all doctor visits will decline for the fear of them turning into inquisitions to the mind instead of the body. It is a common occurrence of complaints of many symptoms being labelled as psychosomatic, after extensive diagnosing attemps fail to discover a physical fault.

[Wader2]

"There are many jobs where the risk to a lone worker is deemed so high that two people must be present."

protecting the safety of the worker

Or the consequences of any thing happening to that worker. I was not limiting my comment to the issues you cited.

Take a simple emergency, say fumes in cockpit. The PNF, or other suitably qualified person can start the actions without having to fly the aircraft.

PS, as an aside, how many times do pilots in a 2-man cockpit practice single man operation in the simulator?

[Evanelpus]

I would question why the Captain felt it necessary to leave the Flt Deck so soon after departure, and to hand control to an inexperienced FO shortly before the aircraft reached cruise altitude. A "comfort break"? What are they talking about, I flew shorthaul for years and can't recall either of us being taken that short! Or ever 'going down the back' during the whole flight for that matter!

I flew shorthaul for years and blah blah blah. So the Captain needed a wee, big deal, it happens. Are you suggesting that potential pilots must be able to display ultimate bladder control before being issued a license. What a weapons grade nutsack!:D

[Blindside]

I already appreciate the volume of uneventful flights and how unlikely this scenario is but that doesn't change anything that I wrote.

Public opinion isn't necessarily rational.

I think it is rational to acknowledge that people could now view pilots differently/less favourably and possibly for the first time. In most previous incidents the pilots have also been viewed as victims (just like the passengers).

I fly a great deal with work and I'm not a nervous flyer. I believe I'm rational so if I was thinking it, then others will be too. I think it's less rational to not consider it, even briefly. After 9/11 I was more aware of people standing by the toilets, approaching the cockpit door etc. Do I think that everyone standing by the toilets is a terrorist? Not for a second, but I am more aware of what is going on around me on a plane.

This has the potential to have huge ramifications for pilots and the industry in general - particularly if passengers do lose some confidence in the people at the front.

[chopjock]

Is there any evidence the FO simply did not have a panic attack and pass out because he was nervous? Thinking he was about to pass out set the aircraft on a decent thinking it was hypoxia? then having a seizure.
Is there any evidence the cabin door switch was being held in the lock position?
and not just conjecture because of the timing it took the CO to have a pee?
If not, the switch may simply have been in the normal position and the CO forgot the emergency code?
Any evidence to prove this hypothesis wrong?
Also if the FO wanted to commit suicide and mass murder, surely just shut off the fuel supply with his left hand?
Or not.

[PukinDog]

UAV689
Does anyone know, if German Wings, offer sick pay? or was this a zero hour contract with no sick benefits. It has gone on long enough this, young guys saddled with debt, are being forced to fly as they will not get paid. Be it a head cold or more serious issues.

It has to stop

Enough with the histionics, nobody is forcing anyone to fly and debt is something willingly assumed and should be planned for. Tens of thousands of pro pilots have done it w/o snapping and bore the borden to a larger degree and for a lot longer than this kid who got a fast track into an airliner.

Furthermore, and regardless of any company's policy, it's incumbent upon the aviation professional to ground himself if he/she knows they don't meet the standards/requirements of his/her medical, with or without a doctor's statement of fitness for duty. That's a trust between pilot and passenger and exists even for a PPL.

There's no excuse, financial or otherwise, for any pilot to take a cockpit seat with passengers in back knowing they are unfit to fly. Here in this case there's evidence he even had a medical Doctor's evaluation stating he was unfit. I can't believe anyone could believe there could be an excuse or "pressure" great enough to do it. If he did, it's just is further evidence he should have been washed-out of aviation the first time he needed an extended time-off for treatment of mental health issues the first time around during training.

[slats11]

If, when all is finalised, it turns out that the accident was caused by a seriously mentally ill man hiding his condition from his employers because he feared for his career our industry will need to enable doctors to directly report serious concerns.


Thats not going to help I'm afraid:
1. Mandatory reporting may prevent people seeking medical attention. Different jurisdictions have different approaches to the issue of patients with epilepsy driving. Some authorities favour mandatory disclosure to the licensing body, but there is evidence this prevents epileptic patients declaring their illness and obtaining medication.
2. There is mandatory reporting for a few specific issues such as child abuse. Sadly most children killed by their parents are well known to the authorities. Often a "child at risk" is reported multiple times (by doctors, teachers, police etc) during the last few weeks or months of life. The problem isn't notification, but rather effective intervention.
3. A pilot seeing a doctor for depression or other mental illness will likely declare another occupation if there was mandatory disclosure. Absolutely guarantee this happens already out of concern of disclosure.

This issue of mental illness doesn't have a simple solution. Mental illness is common, but only a tiny proportion of people affected by mental illness will do anything like this. There are no tests that can predict if someone is high risk. Routine psychological screening can be employed, but intelligent people with insight can easily "spoof" the test. "Do you ever have feelings of hopelessness.' Umm, think I better say "No' for that.

A more effective measure would be being rostered with the same (or a few) colleagues. If you get to know someone, you will be more likely to pick up a change. Ongoing observation by a colleague over weeks and months will beat a 10 minute screening assessment. Small specialist military units will often spot when one of the team is not right. Larger military units much less so. However I am sure this rostering presents almost insurmountable logistic challenges to the airline.

[NigelOnDraft]

...and I really cannot see how this accident, or reaction, is going to lead to any improved reporting or open culture re mental illness in Flight Crew.

Just imagine if you were suffering, and considering going to the Doc today. Chances you would?

[training wheels]

It was reported that his demeanor changed to "curt" after the Captain discussed the "landing procedures." It would be helpful to hear more about this discussion, and what led the FO to respond curtly.

With only 100 hours on the A320 as reported previously then he would still be under line training. Perhaps his progress wasn't up to standard or that the authority gradient with his TRI was too steep or there was some conflict between the two previously which he took to heart? Such human factor issues will no doubt be investigated.

[A310bcal]

"It was reported that his demeanor changed to "curt" after the Captain discussed the "landing procedures." It would be helpful to hear more about this discussion, and what led the FO to respond curtly."

Yes, I was wondering why the landing was being discussed/briefed when the aircraft had not even reached TOC. Perhaps something happened on the outbound leg which prompted a "discussion"at BCN and it carried on in the departure climb out. Unless a sector was VERY short ( in which case the arrival was normally briefed on the ground before take off ) the normal point of arrival briefing would be about 10 minutes before TOD when all pertinent information was to hand. i.e R/W in use , weather etc.

Bit unusual to say the least ?

[fireflybob]

This has the potential to have huge ramifications for pilots and the industry in general - particularly if passengers do lose some confidence in the people at the front.


But it won't - within 2 weeks most of the travelling public will have forgotten all about this supported by reports than "airlines are modifying procedures...etc".

IMHO this an extremely rare event but is not without precedence (assuming this was a "deliberate" act).

[GearDown&Locked]

When will this hysteria stop?
We live in a constant state of fear. And we keep on feeding this irrational fear. Just look at this thread and we can recognize any number of fears:

-Fear for the occasional terrorist pax – so let’s weld the door shut
-But if the bad/ill person is to be found inside the cockpit – let’s have CC at ready
-But CC could be also a terrorist – let’s have air marshals
-Air marshal can be bad guys too – etc etc ad nauseam

The main factor here is: we all fear each other. We fear that the person next to you is not what he/she appears to be. So let's implement an absurdity of safety precautionary measures each time a freaky situation occurs. And why stop there, let’s implement another absurdity of safety precautionary measures just to ensure the safety precautionary measures are indeed safe and followed to the tee.

We’re behaving like rats, always in fear of being jumped by any hidden predator.

[Sunray Minor]

Depression is a mental illness. This should have put a big question mark over his suitability to fly a commercial or any other type of aeroplane. It would seem to me that Lufthansa/German Wings are culpable. They knew he had been ill and yet allowed him to take charge of a Commercial Aircraft and the lives of 150 people.

While that's an entirely understandable point of view, such a hard line probably increases the problem.

Imagine having spent so much on training, the pressure not to report depression or mental illness is likely to be immense. It is an instant end to your career when in all likelihood you either believe, or it might even be entirely possible, for it to be controlled.

It will be a costly, but probably far more effective and cheaper, in the long run to have more permissive sick leave allowances and more open reporting of mental health issues with an accepting culture.

[pax britanica]

A very sad event all around - some interesting knee jerk responses from likes of EasyJet as an example, For once the US had a good idea on this kind of thing with the two in cockpit rule and one wonders why EASA didn’t pick it up-there is after all hardly any cost in having an appropriate CC member park a cart across the aisle in front of the door to add another barrier as they enter the flight deck for maybe 5 minutes two or three times per trip. As someone said earlier they only need to be able to open the door not fly the plane.
Suicide and depression are awful, I had a close friend when in my 20s who had a complete mental collapse and it took him a year to recover- and although sympathetically treated by the company (and indeed especially by our rather tough and seemingly heartless head of department) his career never fully did although he still did Ok he was never seen as management material just a respected expert and of course he wasn't in a position to kill anyone. He did however spontaneous go from normality to doing something very very odd in seconds with no warning at all and that is the problem – did the captain, an older man with a lot more experience have any inkling one wonders and even if he did is there a process in place for him to seek timely advice about such a concern.
. In fact about that time-mid 70s there was another horrific accident at Moorgate on the London underground where a driver didn't stop and the station is a deep level terminus with a concrete wall 50 feet into the tunnel. Lots of discussion about the drivers mental state at the time-never happened again thank god but given what’s known about mental illness today there must be one or two tube drivers minimum who have the potential to ‘lose it’.
Finally, I like PPrune and try and respect the ethos that professional pilots mostly know best and indeed there are always some daft comments on here in these circumstances-the nadir being the escaping tigers in the MH mystery of course. However most of us with an interests in the airline world do know quite a bit about our own world and sometimes those worlds overlap and I cannot see the harm in comments from aviation engineers, scientists, doctors etc. commenting on and aspect of their world that has impacted on aviation. If someone says I am doctor and think Airbus FMCs should be designed to prevent this then by all means be disdainful but If someone says I am a meteorologist for example, and in incident x this was a very unusual weather pattern etc. etc. perhaps others should listen and perhaps learn something which could be very relevant to their job.

[vilas]

I do not believe there is definite method to monitor psychological illness. A machine can be repaired. An organic disease or physiological condition may be curable but psychology deals with human behaviour. That makes it impossible to have straight jacket norms for mental health. Aggression, sadness, short temper, attention deficit, excessively passive, extremely fearful, phobias all these things can be classified as illnesses. Every human being has these emotions and unless chronic disfunctionality is evident you will have to let them continue. There are subjective criteria for mental sickness and is very difficult to apply. The treatments also have their own credibility issues. The word cure is rarely used in psychiatry. It is only to control within acceptable behaviour norms.

[training wheels]

Basil, apologies, I did not make myself clear. I meant compulsory for the medical staff certifying a person unfit for work to report it to the relevant authorities for certain critical professions.

I don't know about the EASA medical, but for the Australian Class 1 medical, you are specifically asked whether you suffer from depression. I've never answered in the affirmative for this so I don't what happens if you do, but I can imagine the reissue of your class 1 medical will be withheld pending further evaluation.

[SoaringTheSkies]

I know this is mostly speculation, but:

So there's this young man who loves to fly - like so many of us
He lives his dream, getting his ATPL with Lufthansa - probably the most prestigeous way in Germany.
During his training, he is suspended for six months, supposedly due to depression.
He recovers, regains his medical, continues his education and lands a right seat job.
Then the black dog returns and he fears for his future, keeping the diagnosis a secret, probably thinking he'll be able to deal with it.
Obviously, it only needed a minor thing for him to push him over the edge.

the more I hear about this incident, the more it saddens me.

[Peter-RB]

As Lufthansa are in the same rules as the rest of the EU, they could fall under the cover of Corporate Manslaughter caused by not being on top of the problems this 2nd pilot seems to have been involved with, there is more to come out about this young man and I don't think it will be good for the main company............ did he have a Girl....or boy..friend,... apparently he was also going through a recent breakup..!! source BBC news Friday the 27th

"Allegedly"

[Xeque]

I just erased what I was going to write in an attempt to play 'devils advocate' but, frankly, I can find no way to to actually be a 'devils advocate' in this instance.
OK - he might have suddenly become unconscious as a result of whatever medication his doctor prescribed but he locked the cockpit door to make it impossible for the Captain to re-enter and then he altered the altitude setting to set up the rapid descent that resulted in ground impact.
Both these actions were deliberate - there's no getting away from that.
The industry can argue over differing methods of securing the flight deck - 2 in there at all times, more complex and draconian security policies and SOP's etc. but it is all quite pointless if you have someone who has made the decision to end it all and (more importantly) doesn't care that their actions will result in the mass murder of 149 innocent men, women and children who's safety and safe delivery to destination is his responsibility.
This man, in what he has done, is no different to a person with a bomb strapped to them intent on taking out themselves and as many bystanders as possible or the likes of Andreas Brievik who cold-bloodily targeted his victims one by one and until someone comes up with a rational explanation as to why the cockpit door was locked and the altitude setting altered then I have to accept that these were, indeed, his deliberate actions.
To my mind the fault here lies with the doctor who, knowing that the man was a pilot and the extent of his illness, gave him a sick note but failed to inform the airline the man worked for (unless he did, in which case we are into a whole new scenario or he was not the FO's regular doctor and simply didn't know what the man did for a living).
The lesser responsibility lies with the airline. Was this man really fit to fly? His 'breakdown' during training notwithstanding, 600 plus hours on type is not an insignificant number of flights and if he's shown no signs of mental disorder during any one of those flights or during regular airmeds, who was to know that he was a time-bomb just waiting to go off.
I'm sorry if I've gone on a bit but I am writing this in an effort to marshal my own thoughts and to understand just how this could happen.
And sadly, I'm no further forward.

[dlen]

There are lots of evidence, that certain people with a severe depression can paradoxically become aggressive against themselves a n d o t h e r s after starting to take certain antidepressiva.

[Hotel Charlie]

It will be a costly, but probably far more effective and cheaper, in the long run to have more permissive sick leave allowances and more open reporting of mental health issues with an accepting culture.

......hmmm..
I'd think it would be more appropriate having shown during initial training that you have mental illness you should not be eligible for a carrier as a professional pilot. If it were only somebody being depressed for week, maybe even a fortnight fine. Anybody can end up there but here we're talking several months!!
Lufthansa has some explaining to do, it would seem.

[md80fanatic]

Most precient post thus far, thank you.

[NigelOnDraft]

I find it troubling that so many self-professed "professionals" on here are tiptoeing around the F/O's documented history of mental illness and a system that allows such a person with that history person to hold a medical certificate of a class sufficient for a commercial pilot certificate to remain valid. Sorry (not) if that sounds "discriminatory" but in aviation, particularly for those involved in commercial/common carriage of passengers with no say who occupies the front seats, our whole careers are discriminatory in terms of performance and health standards that must be met. Depression is a mental illness. This should have put a big question mark over his suitability to fly a commercial or any other type of aeroplane. It would seem to me that Lufthansa/German Wings are culpable. They knew he had been ill and yet allowed him to take charge of a Commercial Aircraft and the lives of 150 peopleThe reason people "tip-toe" round it is we (those of us who are pilots) know very little about it.

The question of whether he was fit to fly or not is purely in the hands of the regulatory medical authorities: EASA / LBA. It is not to do with the airline, unless in that airline there is some overlap between employer and medicals.

For most airlines, as I said earlier, you either hold a medical certificate or not. You tell the employer the expiry date - they might even want to check the certificate. End of.

At the large airline I work for, I can choose to use their medical department or not for my medicals. There are "Chinese walls" between them as medical examiners and the employer... but not really relevant anyway, since I, and likely the majority, do medicals with independent AMEs.

[Ian W]

The whole point of the expensive cameras and door lock system is to avoid and mitigate the system you highlight. If these systems fail we go back to your system. This would be at the heart of why going back to your system for all is not likely acceptable - it makes clear that we up front cannot be trusted, and that undermines much of our industry's safety foundation.

Not saying of course it will not happen as a kneejerk response.

The entire Target Level of Safety for aviation is set to be as close to 10^-9 (ten to the minus 9) probability of something causing death as you can get.

It has now been shown in several cases that the current locked door policy as implemented by some airlines allowing one pilot to lock themselves into the flight deck - does not meet the Target Level of Safety for aviation. You might think it is excellent but the flaws mean that it needs to be changed. It can be changed by a simple procedure of using a flight crew member to be a second person in the cockpit.

This procedure is likely to be mandatory within the next few weeks. After all he might have decided to fly into something more than just a mountain. And thus your procedures would have actually permitted a 9/11 scenario that the doors were put there to prevent. :D

[Nick H.]

It seems I might have been on the money when I asked about pilots seeing doctors secretly a few hundred posts ago http://www.pprune.org/8919671-post1537.html This practice is almost impossible to stop. Mandatory reporting won't prevent a pilot from seeing a doctor privately, perhaps in another country, and pretending to be a bus driver. Perhaps this tragedy will lead to calls for frequent blood testing to detect prescription drugs?

Given the pressure that pilots are under I would be amazed if there are not a great many who systematically deceive their employer about their health. It sounds like the job is becoming impossibly demanding, with the rewards disappearing through the floor. You guys and gals have my sympathy.

[Superpilot]

The industry seriously needs to start thinking about cockpit design for the future. If safety is of greater importance than cramming in 6 extra bums on seats then why can't staff members have their own toilet in a plane that has a variant able to carry 220 passengers? By making a flight deck just 45 inches longer and including a toilet in some kind of intermediate section so the pilots never have to "leave" the flight deck, will ensure there is no repeat of this kind of incident and will also prevent a would be terrorist from making a charge for any cockpit door when he sees a pilot come out.

If you think this is ridiculous ask yourself how you would feel as a professional office worker having to share bathroom facilities with over 100 passengers 4-5 times per day. It's a working environment for god sake, time to make it look and feel like one!

[Ingenieur]

Investigators into Alps crash find killer co-pilot Andreas Lubitz had 'hidden illness' from airline bosses

He had suffered from depression and 'burnout' and was once deemed 'unfliable' but was later passed as fit to fly

Head of Lufthansa admitted the 28-year-old had slipped through the 'safety net' - with devastating consequences

Friends said he was teased and called 'Tomato Andy' because he worked as a flight steward before qualifying

Police said they have found evidence of mental illness, but no suicide note at flat he is said to share with girlfriend

Germanwings pilot Andreas Lubitz tore up sick note for day he crashed jet | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013743/Germanwings-pilot-slipped-safety-net-devastating-consequences.html)

[Wrightwing]

Could the "illness" Lubitz suffered from possibly be physical in nature?
Was he pre-empting an inevitable prognosis?
Nothing is more depressing than an incurable disease.

[CorytonSLF]

. In fact about that time-mid 70s there was another horrific accident at Moorgate on the London underground where a driver didn't stop and the station is a deep level terminus with a concrete wall 50 feet into the tunnel. Lots of discussion about the drivers mental state at the time

I think it's not clear what happened. The driver doesn't appear to have had any history of mental illness or reasons to be suicidal.

-never happened again thank god .

No, but safety measures were considerably improved as a result of it, making a recurrence less likely. (Sensible measures, not kneejerk reactions of doubtful utility).

[Cows getting bigger]

Whether it is a valid recording or not, the publishing of a CVR recording on the internet highlights the despicable and sick nature of our modern media hungry society. :sad:

[NigelOnDraft]

Hi Ian WIt has now been shown in several cases that the current locked door policy as implemented by some airlines allowing one pilot to lock themselves into the flight deck - does not meet the Target Level of Safety for aviation. You might think it is excellent but the flaws mean that it needs to be changed. It can be changed by a simple procedure of using a flight crew member to be a second person in the cockpit.We have a number of instances of the "door" locking out pilots. Some technical hitches, one FO locked out a Capt legitimately, 2 FOs the opposite (this one, Ethiopian), 1 Capt the opposite (LAM) - I am sure others.

Prior new doors, there seems a history of suicide accidents as well?

So I do not think the system excellent, but nor can I see the benefit of adding the additional crew member as a "cure all".

Just to be clear, can you state what you see as the legal (OM) role and specified duties of that additional (cabin) crew member in the Flight Deck:
To override the (acting) Commander of the Aircraft if they judge their actions inappropriate?
Do they override the commander (or deputy) in matters of Flight Safety?
Does the Commander need to consult said (cabin) crew member if they wish to alter the Flight path iaw ATC?
If the buzzer goes, and the Capt deems the requested entry inappropriate, can the CC member override (phsyically? by authority?) the order of the Commander?
Will said CC member by trained, and authorised, in the use of the door system controls?I do not see it as Black & White, I see arguments for both approaches. But I suspect it is being done, not for Flight Safety or Security, but as a PR stunt.

[Pace]

I am a corporate Jet Captain and we do not have doors between the cockpit and cabin but may have a solution which could work?
I am not familiar with the A320 doors so guidance please?

A master key hung around the neck of the exiting crew member which would override any blocking attempt by the remaining crew member in the cockpit would work with a proviso.
That key would only work with the addition of a memory code known by the two crew members so useless to a terrorist grabbing it off the neck of that crew member without the code.
A bit like a credit Card only giving you cash with a pin number.

I do not think allowing a cabin crew member into the cockpit has really been thought out and is a knee jerk reaction.

It is fairly easy with a clean record to get a job as cabin staff and with a short period of training.
Is this latest action not just opening up another avenue for terrorists to get access to the cockpit but with only one soul up front?
A terrorist with radical views but a clean record could get a job as Cabin crew and now have access to the one remaining pilot who will probably be looking at the panel often. That potential Cabin crew terrorist also has least resistance and an ability to lock the other pilot out as things stand.

Also consider positioning flights with no PAX or Cabin crew but only flight crew what happens then? the aircraft is still potentially a lethal weapon

Has this really been thought out?

[Ronaldo_McDonaldo]

What I don't understand is what somebody else pointed out on here. If this guy was planning on crashing the plane then how could he have been so "fortunate" as to have found the time that the pilot needed the loo to do it. In a short flight then surely there's a chance that the pilot would have remained in his seat the entire time.

If this guy was suicidally depressed then what was he doing? Waiting for the perfect storm of being overcome with a wave of depression, being in charge of a plane and having the pilot need a wee all at the same time It seems like a lot of planning for someone who was obviously thinking irrationally - do you think the pilot gave him a bollocking for something just before he downed the plane?

[Wader2]

l
If you think this is ridiculous ask yourself how you would feel as a professional office worker having to share bathroom facilities with over 100 passengers 4-5 times per day. It's a working environment for god sake, time to make it look and feel like one!

Good point, and consider the H&S aspects. There is no passenger health screening. Poor hygiene could lead to norovirus. Imagine also if the toilet was occupied?

I suppose in the latter case, call the FA, get them to keep it clear and get FA
to call when free.

[G.Green]

The real tragedy of this is not the reasons why this psycho did what he did, but he unilaterally decided to snuff out over 140 innocent lives along with him. For this, and being in a trusted position as Second In Command, that F/O has my complete and utter contempt with total absolute disgust.

[west lakes]

Media Speculation to make headlines and sell copy!

Read this statement regarding depression

Mind's response to today's front pages on the Germanwings plane crash | Mind, the mental health charity - help for mental health problems (http://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/minds-response-to-todays-front-pages-on-the-germanwings-plane-crash/#)

Posted on 27/03/2015

The terrible loss of life in the Germanwings plane crash is tragic, and we send our deepest sympathies to the families. Whilst the full facts are still emerging, there has been widespread media reporting speculating about the link with the pilot’s history of depression, which has been overly simplistic.

Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.

Today’s headlines risk adding to the stigma surrounding mental health problems, which millions of people experience each year, and we would encourage the media to report this issue responsibly.

Sue Baker, Director, Time to Change
Paul Farmer, Chief Executive, Mind
Mark Winstanley, Chief Executive, Rethink Mental Illness

Perhaps it needs some responsible posting as well

[Downwind Lander]

=== Apols if this has been discussed and I haven't noticed ===

Is it known whether the co-pilot disengaged all auto systems and manually fly into the ground? On this a/c type, would it have been NECESSARY to do this?

If not, the software is pretty strange. It knows:

1. the descent rate setting
2. the airspeed indication
2. the position of the aircraft
3. the position of mountains
4. the height above the ground, QFE

The software knows that the prognosis is not good. Does it take no evasive action? Does it simply carry on regardless?

[keithpenny]

G.Green....Please remember the guy was I'll!!!
Surely, when one is employed in such a responsible position, someone's pschological medical records should be sent to employers as a matter of urgency? OK so you pilots are all special.. and made of 'the right stuff' but it doesn't mean you are immune to depression or breakdown.
I wonder how his doctor is feeling right now.

[Diesel8]

=== Apols if this has been discussed and I haven't noticed ===

Is it known whether the co-pilot disengaged all auto systems and manually fly into the ground? On this a/c type, would it have been NECESSARY to do this?

If not, the software is pretty strange. It knows:

1. the descent rate setting
2. the airspeed indication
2. the position of the aircraft
3. the position of mountains
4. the height above the ground, QFE

The software knows that the prognosis is not good. Does it take no evasive action? Does it simply carry on regardless?

Aircraft does not take corrective actions in case of GPWS.

[16024]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UAV689
Does anyone know, if German Wings, offer sick pay? or was this a zero hour contract with no sick benefits. It has gone on long enough this, young guys saddled with debt, are being forced to fly as they will not get paid. Be it a head cold or more serious issues.

It has to stop

I hope this incident, becomes the 'colgan' of europe, and with the press assistance and coverage, help from unions etc, some of the rot can end. It is just a shame that the bean counters always win until blood is spilled, then it takes the media to raise awareness.
Not the right place or time to push your agenda.

Germanwings pays sick leave as any company would be required to. The first officers are well paid (around €60k p.a.), can repay their debt in small installments and have good union representation. Of course, management would like pay to be lower, and unions would like pay to be higher. This is Lufthansa you are talking about, not some dodgy charter or business jet operator, and not a US regional airline either.
Reply

Actually, this is the perfect time and place.
The bit I am questioning is "..as any company would be required to."
I don't know how it goes in Belgium but, in the UK at least, Zero Hours contracts are a big political topic. And not just in Aviation, but many safety-critical jobs.

[Krautwald]

His doctor did nothing wrong. He gave him documentation for illness and medication. Thus telling him not to work and do something about it. Which the patient ignored, the document was found torn in his apartment. Also, giving data to a third part (employer) is actually illegal for a doctor.

[Nick H.]

Financial Times is quoting an ICAO report about pilots concealing depression:

ICAO cited studies that showed pilots may be under-reporting instances of depression to continue flying. Rules in many countries bar pilots from the cockpit if they are taking antidepressants.
“According to the Aviation Medicine Advisory Service database of pilots’ telephone inquiries, approximately 15 per cent of pilots who had been advised by their physicians to take antidepressant medication showed an intention to take the medication and continue flying without informing the Federal Aviation Administration,” the report stated.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0f074560-d466-11e4-9bfe-00144feab7de.html#axzz3VUkxUB2m

[Baron737]

The Lufthansa CEO did say true words: no system in this world can prevent such an event. But people can't except, that there are borders to the possibilltiy to avoid desaster. So they cry for action, and rather except to make things worse.

"For once the US had a good idea on this kind of thing with the two in cockpit rule and one wonders why EASA didn’t pick it ..."

German BDL (union of airlines) want to do the same nonsense now. Up to now there is the rule, that nobody is allowed in the cockpit, if the commander leaves it. And now all the good reason for this rule is nothing worth anymore ?

You need about two years to become pilot. But you can become flight attendant in two weeks. Nothing easier for any terrorist than to become a FA. Whom will I trust more ? My FO, or any FA ? What a nonsense.

Furthermore it will be an invitation to all terrorists travelling as passenger. Whenever the bell calls the FA, they know it is time.

We all know, that a pilot can destroy the plane in seconds, even if the other pilot is sitting in his seat. What in the world could a FA do about it ?

And if something less dramatic happens, as a malfunctioning cockpitdoor ? The captain can't come back, but the FO could savely land the plane, if there wasn't this panicking FA in the cockpit.

[Sober Lark]

I think this whole 'quick to solve' and make public by the French authorities is deplorable. It is deplorable for a number of reasons. 1. The full facts cannot have been established in such a short time. 2. A full and proper investigation has not been completed so an industry has been left without recommendations. 3. Not everyone who suffers from depression (of which according to WHO there are 350 million worldwide) will go on to commit suicide so they have actually made it more difficult for such persons many who work in the airline industry to talk openly and seek help and 4. Their actions could unwittingly create copycat suicides.


UAV - I should point out to you that Ryanair and Aer Lingus actually had the two in a cockpit rule in operation for some years prior to this event. They are not seeking publicity with the media claiming to be putting measures in place today.

[Diesel8]

I can't rediscover the link to the Youtube Audio in this thread which is where i found it. Has the post containing it been deleted?

What's going on here?

The youtube file has typical high traffic moneymaking "SkipAd" advertisement slapped on the front.

Did I hear stick shaker in the last part ?

No stick shaker on Airbus A320.

[Tiennetti]

Overspeed warning is always active, A/P or not. Aircraft will pitch up, no over ride by side stick in normal law.
Why the AP disconnects out of the overspeed warning and not while the warning sounds?

[pbeardmore]

This case is a reminder that, with all the amazing technology that has developed within aviation over the last one hundred years or so, the most advanced, complex and, perhaps least understood "piece of essential kit" onboard is the human brain. I suspect many of us, in addition to aviation, share interests in typical bloke stuff like classic cars, pubs etc etc. But how many of us are comfortable talking about and sharing our emotional well being and mental health?
Perhaps pprune needs a new section to help open up discussion?

[obmot]

"Speaking as one who has dealt with families bereaved by suicide for over 23 years so, briefly ... There is no 'normal'. It is often the case that once a person has made the choice of suicide - they appear much happier and calmer. Families say, "Ten days ago, we thought he'd turned a corner as he was getting back to his usual cheerful self and then ..." I recall one man who visited his parents for the weekend, cleaned the house and mowed the lawn and then hung himself.

Suicide is outside our expectations and so 99.9% of people are not looking for it and do not see it coming. When they look back at the recent months? Then they can see the path leading to it but it was not visible before.

If this is suicide, could the person have been waiting a week (or more) for the correct opportunity? Yes."

From a medical/psychological perspective, this post above is spot on.

[wheelsright]

The leaked CVR is an obvious fake unless the Prosecutor was lying.

On the subject of an investigation releasing facts or evidence during or before a final report...

I do not see any reason that non controversial evidence should not be released. The idea that there are issues of privacy involved in the case of an air accident is ridiculous. Neither does it seem to be offensive to grieving relatives of friends, although some people may disagree. In my own experience more information is better than less when coping with grief.

Wild allegations and theories on the other hand are no help to anybody.

[UAV689]

Sober lark, not bashing Ryan at all, but trying to get a point across, that if you feel that you cannot be honest with your employer about your health, state of mind because a company policy makes you feel you cannot, then that is a risk.

The Italian authorities in the incident I quoted pointed out the driver in question, kept in secret from employer the death of his child for fear of losing his job.

How is that correct? Is this man a monster also? Again coming back to a point that is you do not feel you can be open about your mental state of mind, you can lose the plot and awful events such as these can occur. Maybe not deliberate, but a lower performance that will lead to errors or unstable approaches as in Italy.

Two people on flt deck or not, with one blow you can knock someone out, locked door, no locked door, 2 people or not. If someone's state of mind has gone of kilter to that degree who knows what they will do, look at all the mass shootings in usa from mentally disjointed people with access to weapons. A mentally disjointed pilot has a weapon in the shape of a control column.

[Jet Jockey A4]

LOL...

I suspect that idiotic web site got the news from the PI News site which is nothing but an extremist far, far right German group.

[Xeque]

And here we go. No-one wanted to say it but it has been alluded to before.
Now let us see where this goes.

[finfly1]

The FO's pay was maybe triple the comparable US pay.

When left alone in the cockpit, his total hours were slightly more than one third the minimum needed for a US ATP rating.

Treating mental illness is not like setting a broken femur. As has been stated here over and over, the side effects of treatment can be worse than the disease.

Not everybody can be an airline pilot, no matter how much they want to be one.

And it can be dangerous when privacy concerns trump public safety.

[Kirks gusset]

For more thread creep! checked our loss of licence cover... Mental illness not covered, in basic terms, if you're on the edge, the company will try and send you to a "professional" to get a diagnosis, but you get max 3 months pay.. thats it.. Also checked previous LOL Insurance with Belgium carrier, its the same exclusion.. so if you're nuts, don't fly!
This event is not related with PTF, Zero Time, Blah Blah, its one guy, maybe or maybe not radicalised while in a vulnerable state of mind.. could happen in any walk of life, unfortunately it would "appear" this job give hime the opportunity to take his own life, along with the others on board, although we should really wait for the full facts before making a judgement, maybe some sensitivity required rather than soap boxing personal agendas