Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

[RexBanner]

@ Zeddb

So a 20,000 hour pilot cannot suffer from a depressive episode? Jeez talk about clutching at straws.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

It is interesting that some posters believe the Industry would "expel" anyone suffering from stress due to life pressures. However, surely if a person cannot cope with a divorce, financial pressures etc they probably can't cope with the stress they might encounter on a flight deck.

I am not unsympathetic to mental illness but I certainly would not like to board an aircraft if I knew one the pilots had recently suffered a mental breakdown.

In my view suffering from such a condition should be a licence terminating event. Period. It's harsh but I see no alternative.

[Pace]

Quote:
Like most reactive responses to safety and security from knee jerk US-led mono cultural organisations, strengthened cockpit doors and granular inspections of 100ml bottles of shampoo are nothing to do with real safety - they're about the patronising reassurance of passengers assumed to be too thick to understand the futility of these charades, and the interests of companies who sell 'security solutions' to aid the official window dressing.

Let's face it, in a world of ever cheaper fares and screwed-down salary structures, passengers get treated like prisoners on remand and aircrew like jailers with trays. Where's the dignity in that?
Superb

Agreed the security industry have become a huge Multi Billion Dollar industry and will forever be looking at expanding that industry so that their main motivation is profit sadly 9/11 was the birth of that industry which attached itself to Aviation and not to other equally vulnerable modes of transport

[Dynamic Roller]

reasonable doubt
emjanssen: How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?

This is one thing that is troubling me as well.

I will not argue that there are many elements to argue in support of conclusion that this was murder/suicide by the co-pilot, however I am not sure the case is beyond all reasonable doubt, and the blogs, boards and news media seem to be locking down on that conclusion.

It strikes me as odd that someone intentionally headed into a suicide crash would have "normal" or "steady" breathing, and I believe there are states of incapacitation under which breathing may sound "steady". The gradual descent also seems possibly inconsistent with an intentional suicide crash.

I know that we want to know, and we want resolution, but I believe there is some ambiguity here, and perhaps we should accept that we don't, and may not, really know what happened here.

They do have squitter data, as linked to above (http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616), which clearly shows intentional reprogramming of the autopilot from 38000 to 96 ft.

[giggitygiggity]

@zeddb
It's a consequence of the pay to fly culture that has taken root in Europe. Airlines, especially budget airlines, will not recruit anyone with experience preferring so called cadets out of whom they make money. Hence we get co pilots with less than the hours required to get a U.S. licence flying passenger jets., up to now the public have not given a stuff as they only want cheap tickets. This will hopefully change but I'm not holding my breath. With 600 hours I and most of my peers were flying turboprops under close supervision and knew just enough to realise what we did not know.

We reap what we sow.

This is nonsense, previous pilot suicides haven't been by 'cadet' low-hours pilots, and in the instance of the first possible suicide by a low-houred pilot, therefore it must simply be a result of him being a cadet with little experience. Did you think that comment through at all?

[Dingo63]

@ Skysod Yep. I'm sure there is a LOT more to this than what the French Prosecutor has decided based on what he "heard".

[tunalic2]

Quote:
Like most reactive responses to safety and security from knee jerk US-led mono cultural organisations, strengthened cockpit doors and granular inspections of 100ml bottles of shampoo are nothing to do with real safety - they're about the patronising reassurance of passengers assumed to be too thick to understand the futility of these charades, and the interests of companies who sell 'security solutions' to aid the official window dressing.

Let's face it, in a world of ever cheaper fares and screwed-down salary structures, passengers get treated like prisoners on remand and aircrew like jailers with trays. Where's the dignity in that?

Superb

I'm wondering what the knee jerk reaction will be.

[Eaglebaby]

So is it not necessary any more to find the FDR? Seems like all has been decided.

[Odysseus]

May I second that sir.

Yes the travelling public like cheap tickets but: we have never been offered the choice - if you will permit the hyperbole - between the risk of getting flown into the ground versus paying more to have a pilot who won't kill us (exaggeration deliberately for effect).

It doesn't seem likely that this result is a function of either inexperience or low pay. Most of us get paid far less than the co-pilot is said to have been paid; many professionals with student loans are paying more than 40% of their present job's salary for their training; and it further appears to me a disservice to the overwhelming majority of professional pilots with integrity, to imply that being disgruntled with pay and conditions could instigate such a murderous outcome.

[Nick H.]

Is it common practice for commercial pilots to see a private doctor secretly if they want treatment for a condition which could threaten their flight status? I'm told this was typical in the RAF in the '80s. A good friend of mine who was a Phantom instructor told me he had gone to Harley Street to get his varicose veins fixed. He said 'everybody does it.' I would think that if a commercial pilot needed help with depression he would be tempted to get a private prescription on the quiet. In a terrible case like this one when the co-pilot's remains may not yield blood for testing, how will we ever know what medication he was taking?

[Eaglebaby]

It is not a matter of trust it's a matter of who pays your salaries.

[giggitygiggity]

It doesn't seem likely that this result is a function of either inexperience or low pay. Most of us get paid far less than the co-pilot is said to have been paid; many professionals with student loans are paying more than 40% of their present job's salary for their training; and it further appears to me a disservice to the overwhelming majority of professional pilots with integrity, to imply that being disgruntled with pay and conditions could instigate such a murderous outcome.

Quite, it seems rediculous to imagine that someone who has probably wanted to fly jets for a very very long time would go through all of the training, get the job and then a couple of moths later do this because of his contract or his pay and debts. I remember the first few months of jet flying and I am sure like most of you I was over the moon, couldn't wipe the smile off my face!

[DaveReidUK]

They do have squitter data, as linked to above (http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616), which clearly shows intentional reprogramming of the autopilot from 38000 to 96 ft.Unfortunately, we seem to have passed the threshold beyond which posters can't be bothered to read the thread history but nevertheless think it's OK to jump in with questions which have been asked (and answered) before, in some cases several times.

[liam548]

Quite, it seems rediculous to imagine that someone who has probably wanted to fly jets for a very very long time would go through all of the training, get the job and then a couple of moths later do this because of his contract or his pay and debts. I remember the first few months of jet flying and I am sure like most of you I was over the moon, couldn't wipe the smile off my face!



Exactly. No one on this forum has the info to speculate about the guys mind.
It is no more likely to about his finances than an argument with his life long best friend.

[offa]

630 hours is low but no unusual for Europe Ryanair European largest airline has co-pilots flying there jets with much less hours than 630.
Not unusual indeed .... but 630 hours having started training in 2009 comes to about 100 hours a year when short haul is nearer 100 hours a MONTH?

[flash8]

I asked if any such recordings, on SD cards etc, would survive the impact, and one reply came back saying yes.

Both Passenger Super 8 footage, photographic film, and the INS core memory (this was 1979) on the ANZ KSSU DC-10 survived the impact as did the FDR.

This was Erebus so the CFIT profile might be similar.

[marie paire]

Air Traffic Control can see whatever altitude is set in the window from the ground (Mode-S?) and apparently, they would have seen it changed from 38,000ft (the cleared altitude) to 100ft.

My understanding anyway, if an ATCO want's to clear that up, be my guest.

This is not so. The ATC tag will show the altitude the aircraft is cleared to (controller manual input processed by the ATC FDPS) and the actual FL and attitude of the aircraft (climbing, descending, level) derived from mode C.

[Ivanbogus]

Nobody has confirmed he only had 630 TT, 630 on the type sounds more likely.....

[Castlehard]

German Airlines have announced that they are going with the two in cockpit rule.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

At the end of the day we just have to accept that in life we live with some very sick people who have the potential to cause us harm. We can never get rid of this risk completely (...)

If someone wants to cause other people harm they will do, regardless of what we do.

It's true that we can't eliminate all risks completely, but that doesn't mean that some risks can't be eliminated, and the remaining risks reduced to the bare minimum. The simple step of requiring two crew members in the cockpit at all times (with appropriate procedures and training) is an example. Can be immediately implemented at an insignificant cost, and it would greatly complicate perpetrating this sort of thing.

[fitliker]

The picture being shown on BBC of the Co-pilot sitting in front of the bridge with one of the highest suicide rates on the planet is erie.
Maybe if they had not put the anti-jump fences on the bridge ,he might have just jumped off the bridge instead of killing all those innocent pax.

[cockpitvisit]

In some CBC radio interviews that I have done this morning about the crash I mentioned this possibility, and noted that the possible existence of such recordings would produce an ethical problem for the crash investigators. I suggested that such recordings would never ever be made public.


Such recordings (if they exist) are the property of the deceased passengers and must be returned to their relatives. Who then should be free to decide whether to publish them or not.

You cannot simply confiscate property of other people on "moral grounds".

[ChissayLuke]

This would appear to me, to have nothing to do with suicide.
If the guy wanted that, there are many other methods at his disposal, which do not involve the loss of so very many innocents.

[janeczku]

emjanssen: How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?

This is one thing that is troubling me as well.



This conclusion can reasonably be made by cross matching the timestamps of the ADB mode-s "selected altitude" messages with the timing of the sounds of someone pushing FMC buttons on the CVR.


09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:52Z.567 T,3c6618,43.122208,5.676482,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.036 T,3c6618,43.122894,5.676993,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.546 T,3c6618,43.124271,5.678166,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:54Z.096 T,3c6618,43.125295,5.678689,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.676 T,3c6618,43.125961,5.679421,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.156 T,3c6618,43.127157,5.680259,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa

[FrequentSLF]

Airbus computers are the problem
pay to fle is the problem
asian pilots are the problem
not sufficient training is the problem

none of those..pretty sad, maybe is time that the whole industry review the system

[Dingo63]

Having Squitter data showing manual input clearly is not, in my opinion, definitive as to state of mind or intent of the F/O. We can deduce, but my question would be, why in the world did the F/O manually input 100, and stay on FP ? I would like a mental health professional to show me the percentage of folks so minded, that would take deliberate action and make no attempt to expedite it, ie, roll it over, nor take advantage of the CVR to explain to his actions to loved ones or those he might have been aggrieved at.

Doesn't add up. And to sit there listening to the pilot banging on the door to get in... human nature is not to just sit there and "know" entry would not be gained in time... and yet he did apparently nothing to expedite departure from controlled flight. Doesn't add up. There is more to this.... just has to be. I don't like speculating and I hate that the media has "solved" it because of the French guy preliminary statement.

[Odysseus]

If I may comment from within my limited area of expertise: people who successfully commit suicide are indeed often oblivious to collateral damage for example a jumper from a tall building who hits an unfortunate passerby on the pavement below. What is extraordinarily rare however is the combination of (1) a successful suicide (not just attempted) who takes a large number of people with him or her in the implementation of the suicide plan; (2) no before- or after- messaging or notes; and (3) a successful suicide plan that requires a sequence of deliberate acts and not a momentary irrevocable act.

And in the absence of information, the vacuum is filled with speculation. (Exactly as I am doing now). People want to be able to assess the risk themselves rather than be patronized by the professionals. This very likely is as true in aviation as it is in my line of work.

When I first lost a friend and classmate in the Silkair crash, is when I first realized just how little information the travelling public were ever allowed to hear or read about these incidents. And how politicized air 'accident'* investigations are (something I'm sure professional pilots decry as well).

*(scare quotes around the word accident because SilkAir was not an accident of course...)

[DenisG]

I have tried to follow-up on the last hours now and wonder whether there has been a source and/or confirmation that the captain did indeed try the security code (30 sec call sound in cockpit, easily to hear on CVR) and that this attempt was denied by the FO?

Earlier, I had read somebody state that LH CEO stated this. But from the TV material I saw now, one cannot derive that. Thanks for your help.

[c53204]

If the PIC exited the cockpit after cruise was established, then who else (or what else) could have initiated the 'controlled' descent?

[Sunfish]

"Pay and Conditions" may be a contributing factor not necessarily because of financial and emotional stress but because the available rewards affect the size and quality of the recruiting pool from which pilot trainees are selected.

There is also ample evidence, in terms of anecdotal divorce data, that the peripatetic lifestyle of travelling pilots for example, staying in a different hotel room each night, shift work, etc. does not necessarily make it easy to form strong family and social relationships of the sort that provide much support in times of stress.

To put that another way, if we treat piloting as "just another job", and make irrelevant comparisons with the employment stress levels of many posters here, we are missing the point.

Piloting isn't "an ordinary job" because there is a requirement for concise and accurate actions at all times in the air that cannot be delayed. In this piloting resembles the work of surgeons and trial lawyers and not much else. Pretty much everyone else can take time out to consider their course of action, pilots can't. Even ships Captains can anchor and train drivers can stop the train. Pilots can't.

I can well imagine a young pilot, perhaps with domestic personal issues, a crushing training loan to repay, a demanding job performance requirement, a demanding work schedule and an unsympathetic employer or captain, suddenly deciding their "dream job" isn't….and finding it is all too much to cope with.

Please spare me the outraged comments regarding professionalism and irrelevant asides, depression is a very real problem that attacks all levels of society and to think that pilots are some how immune is idiotic.

Mean while the knee jerk response of regulators will probably be to pull the medical certificates of anyone who has ever mentioned "the D word", consulted a psychiatrist or been prescribed SSRIs.


This will not be a popular subject with airline management.

[skyhighfallguy]

Was the total time of the copilot some 600 hours , or was that the time in type?

Why would anyone leave a 600 hour pilot alone in the cockpit? I hate using the airplane lavatory in flight. it was only a two hour flight, get my drift?

[LadyL2013]

Dougie bougey - then you you would probably not go anywhere or have anything done if the mental health history of your doctor, taxi driver, train driver, pilot, mechanic etc were to be revealed. At least 1 in 4, remember that.

I would break my heart and somewhat offend me if someone didn't wish me to do my job for them because of a mental health history, especially if I was completely competent.

Granted if one becomes impaired, then they should be taken off duty, but if they are well and capable, why not?

[DaveReidUK]

This is not so. The ATC tag will show the altitude the aircraft is cleared to (controller manual input processed by the ATC FDPS) and the actual FL and attitude of the aircraft (climbing, descending, level) derived from mode C.

No, the OP is correct, at least for those Mode S radars that interrogate for downloadable parameters (DAPs).

The controller gets to see the SELECTED altitude. The whole point is that, by comparing that to the CLEARED altitude, the controller gets an early warning of a potential level bust where the two values aren't the same.

[Deep and fast]

The fact is, if you look after your staff financially, training, roster, leave and generally like a human being, there is less chance they will want to spear an A320 into central France.

[QUOTE]As for ignorance, well by definition as a lack of knowledge, we can all suffer that sometimes but if memory serves, your posts are about dumbing down the career and terms and profitability, then one catastrophic hull and passenger loss will teach you a lot about economics of airline shares if you do indeed hold them./QUOTE]

This was a quote I made from the "airlines making their pilots pay"

GW will find out this cost now.

Federal Express Flight 705 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705)

This was a mad jumpseater who tried to kill the pilots, I'm guessing a hostie wouldn't be much of an issue to a man of a mission.


As I said, fix the industry, it will add no more than a euro on a ticket.

[flash8]

SilkAir was not an accident of course...

Odysseus, given that you have only made three posts in fifteen years I have to respect what you say, as you obviously felt strongly enough to reply to this.

I would however, for the sake of Captain Tsu, and for those reading like to state that no conclusive evidence was found to prove the tragedy was deliberate, and much of the supposition regarding other personal issues were found to be false (but still persist).

Every few years or so, somebody states definitively that the Silk Air was suicide/murder by Tsu but nothing has been proven, and every few years I'll be here to defend him until anything is proven to the contrary.

[oldoberon]

I know a story of a guy during line training, around 120 hours, and captain left cockpit for toilet break!
The guy freaked out during his time alone in the cockpit.
I find it disturbing that the French prosecutor have come with so much, yet incomplete information.

I would think a full investigation should be completed first.

Please correct me if there is something I may have missed.
They claim the captain is heard knocking on the door, there is no mention if he attempted to enter the emergency door entry code!

If this was not entered or remembered, or entered incorrectly, then this blame on the FO is pre-mature!

There however unlikely it seems might have been some incident, maybe even a minor one, overspeed, accidentally doing something but becoming startled or incapacitated!

Maybe in the stress locked the door instead of opening it!

I have a strong feeling that this story still has a few more twists and turns, I don't feel this story adds up.

The emergency door entry code tone would be heard on the cvr, as you have a limited time to enter, however as far as I can see nothing has been mentioned about this.


When all else fails RTFM

http://nicmosis.as.arizona.edu:8000/ECLIPSE_WEB/TSE2015/A320_DOCUMENTS/A320_Operating_Manual_PDF_N_FCOM_RJA_TF_N_EU__20130329_DSC_2 5.pdf

if using chrome type this is the FIND box
cockpit door description

click three times and you will read everything about the door it’s physical make up and operation.

After a few pages you will see this

COCKPIT DOOR toggle switch

UNLOCK position : This position is used to enable the cabin crewmember to open the door. The switch must be pulled and maintained in the unlock position until the door is pushed open.

NORM position : All latches are locked, and EMERGENCY access is possible for the cabin crew.

LOCK position : Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ; emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a preselected time (5 to 20 min).

Ie you would not hear any attempts to operate the emergency code, additionally GW CEO has stated their delay is set to 5mins so he had to do it twice during an 8 min descent, he was therefore conscious and capable.

As for your he may have got in a mixup, tell us why he didn't call the ground for help. ie hey you guys how do I let my captain back in?

GW CEO has said he doesn't call killing 149 pax suicide.

It was a cold calculated case of murder.

[stator vane]

When flying over Europe and cleared to a flight level, we read back the cleared level but put the wrong flight level in, (the next higher, what I had expected and the planned level.) long before getting close ATC called and asked us to confirm assigned flight level. So, they could tell we put the wrong number in the box.

Maybe our aircraft are different.

and by the way, we have been putting a cabin crew in the flightdeck whenever a pilot leaves for years.

[AreOut]

any psychologists here, why is it that we now have several pilot suicides with many pax killed yet I have never heard of a bus driver doing a suicide and killing the passengers along the way?

[Odysseus]

Dear flash8: I do respect your position and I thank you for your support of your colleague. May we agree to politely disagree?

For a non-professional-aviator the degree of circumstantial evidence appeared/appears overwhelming and the behavior (in terms of communication) of the investigation authorities reinforce that impression. But an impression it remains, nevertheless; still I hope I did not cause inappropriate distress with my statement: I would word it more carefully if I were to do it again.

[threemiles]

Mode-S in Central Europe interrogates MCP/FMS set altitude and QNH setting (FMS for Airbus, which is usually the origin or the destination)

The required equipment is mandatory for the Central Europe airspace.

However the resolution of the data transmitted is 100 feet.

So 13,008 or 96 feet is fake.

A full set of available Mode-S data can be found here
http://rtl1090.web99.de/homepage/index.php?way=1&site=READOUT&DERNAME=Srv%20Table%202%20(0-45)&dm=rtl1090&USER=rtl1090&goto=1&XURL=rtl1090&WB=1&EXTRAX=X&PIDX=104415

[mseyfang]

We have to address the fact that pilots are vulnerable to mental illness. The stigma associated with that encourages covering up and the fact that LOL and disability insurance fails to pay creates a system which incentivizes covering up and avoiding treatment.

I can only speak to the situation in the USA, but just about all of the medications that treat depression or anxiety cause one to lose their medical and thus their license.

My handle here is a tribute to a friend, by consent, who's a gifted pilot who fell into the unfortunate situation of severe anxiety including agoraphobia and panic disorder. Despite the meds and the issues he has, there is nobody I would trust more to handle an emergency. It's a paradox but given an emergency, he'd get through it.

[rideforever]

It was a cold calculated case of murder.
Any diagnosis has to fit the facts. There have been cases of door malfunction before. Is there a motive or suspicion with this man - not so far. Seems A1. That's a big problem.

You are saying an ordinary person is going to kill himself and 150 people whilst on £68k and achieving his lifetime dream of flying, all while "breathing normally".

That does not fit.

We seem to be living in a period of unprecedented unexplained plane crashes. Is there a reason for this ?

[Old Boeing Driver]

I know all of the professionals here do not like the idea of a crew member taking an action like this.

initial statements from authorities appear to be pointing us in that direction. However, I my memory bank, I seem to recall that suicides involving the taking of other lives are more rare than individual acts.

I have no Bus experience, so hopefully some of the A-320 guys can comment on my questions.

Could this airplane have had a more than 5 minute delay in the cockpit door unlocking sequence?

If the FO had a medical condition/attack, which caused him to push his side stick forward, would that disengage the A/P, and/or start the airplane down?

If that could be the case, the speed control would continually try to maintain the set speed by retarding the power levers?

Thanks for any responses.

[Ivanbogus]

From what i can remember, turning the ALT knob on the bus doesn't sound at all. And they say that's heard on the CVR?

[Dingo63]

We seem to be living in a period of unprecedented unexplained plane crashes. Is there a reason for this ?

Commercial Aviation is at it's safest ever. I think we're just seeing unforeseen consequences of ___________.

[zeddb]

Those of you jumping down my throat might like to take note that I was replying to the previous poster who was incredulous that someone with 600 hours was the copilot of a passenger jet, nowhere did I say that the crash was caused solely by the pay to fly culture.

If I wanted to off myself I can think of far easier ways to do it and I would not deliberately take 150 people with me. If I Did want to crash the aircraft I would disconnect the autopilot and dive into the ground, not do a cruise descent into the Alps. If he did do it deliberately then the selection needs to be looked at very hard. On that note, being able to buy your way in May not be the best strategy but it will never change unless the public stop using budget airlines, which they won't.

As for depression, we have all felt pretty low at times but don't commit mass murder which really raises the question what really went on? Again, we may never know, there are too many vested interests in aviation for anything to fundamentally change.

[RobertS975]

Has it been confirmed that the keypad entry was attempted? Was there the alarm sounds heard on the CVR?

[marie paire]

Quote:
Originally Posted by marie paire View Post
This is not so. The ATC tag will show the altitude the aircraft is cleared to (controller manual input processed by the ATC FDPS) and the actual FL and attitude of the aircraft (climbing, descending, level) derived from mode C.
No, the OP is correct, at least for those Mode S radars that interrogate for downloadable parameters (DAPs).

The controller gets to see the SELECTED altitude. The whole point is that, by comparing that to the CLEARED altitude, the controller gets an early warning of a potential level bust where the two values aren't the same.

Unfortunately, there are many different forms of implementation. In most cases nothing is displayed though the information can be used for Short term conflict alert. But I concede that in some systems it may be displayed. Do not know if it is the case in Marseille ACC.

[SD.]

You are saying an ordinary person is going to kill himself and 150 people whilst on £68k and achieving his lifetime dream of flying, all while "breathing normally".

One could argue that Robin Williams had everything in life, you can't just switch off mental illness because you're perceived to be successful.

[tmac21]

I recall working with a guy who was very animated when we had lunch together, and then almost monosyllabic, but functioning not long after, making me wonder if I'd upset him in some way as he didn't respond when I spoke to him, just stared out of the window. Half an hour later, He then collapsed, fitted and was hospitalised, woke up 2 days later but sadly diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. Could it possibly be that something similar happened to the co pilot , explaining the change in his conversation ( to laconic) and he 'mis functioned'?

[Ingenieur]

No one hasvan expectation of privacy on the job
We have cameras, phone calls are logged, as are emails
Bathrooms and such are the exception

If you don't like the conditions of employment seek other

The benefits outweigh the percieved 'right'
Give info to assault team or air marshall
Evidence in case of unruley pax
Reconstruct events like this
Possibly assist from ground with emergencies

[LadyL2013]

Good post mesyfang. Indeed it is possible to be exceptional at your job and suffer a MH problem. Many people with lives in their hands do, doctors, nurses, mental health professionals, pilots.

[milkandhoney]

If I wanted to off myself I can think of far easier ways to do it and I would not deliberately take 150 people with me. zeddb, you're thinking like rational and mentally healthy person.

Why are there cases - as happened in a country town in NSW, AU last year - where a depressed man shoots his wife and kids before shooting himself? And nobody knew until then there were any problems. Why not just shoot himself?

Why do some sad, twisted people commit "suicide by cop"?

My own cousin died by suicide. She had struggled with depression for a long time, but had recently started a new treatment that everyone thought was working because she was happier than ever. As it turned out, she was happy because she'd made a plan to end her life. She didn't think at all about the effect her death would have on her family and indeed she did it in a location where it was inevitable that it would be family that would find her body. She was convinced her action was the right thing to do and that everyone would be better off without her (she left a note), even though of course it absolutely devastated everyone. And of course, everyone in the family swore they would have done something if only they'd known, but to everyone from the outside she looked healthier than she had in years. (She herself was a MH professional.)



You just can't always know.

[DaveReidUK]

Mode-S in Central Europe interrogates MCP/FMS set altitude and QNH setting (FMS for Airbus, which is usually the origin or the destination)

The required equipment is mandatory for the Central Europe airspace.

However the resolution of the data transmitted is 100 feet.

So 13,008 or 96 feet is fake.

No, it isn't.

If, say, 13000 feet is the selected altitude at the time that parameter is interrogated, it can't be sent as that exact value because it's encoded as a 12-bit value where the LSB is 16 feet (MSB is 32768 feet, range is 0 to 65520 feet).

So 13,000 feet gets sent as the closest multiple of 16 feet, which is 13,008 (16 x 813) and 100 feet is sent as 96 (16 x 6).

It may well be that the controller's display rounds the value to multiples of 100 feet, but that's not what we're talking about here.

I see absolutely no reason to doubt those reported DAP Selected Altitude values, which are what you would expect to see as the FCU altitude knob is rotated over a period of some seconds.

[AKAAB]

Rideforever - the altitude selection is with a knob, not a keypad. The entire altitude selection occurred over 3 seconds and the 13008 hit was most likely just an interim sample of data as he turned the knob to 100'.

Old Boeing Driver - the entry keypad sounds an alert in the cockpit for approximately 30 seconds before the door will unlock. This gives the cockpit crew time to assess who is trying to get into the cockpit and, if necessary, to activate the lock to prevent the door locks from releasing. The keypad does not take five minutes or more to activate. The length of the lockout is variable by airline. No, I won't divulge how long it locks the door on our planes.

The real crux of the situation is that we pilots are forced to avoid mental health treatment, even basic counseling, because it becomes a required reporting item on our next FAA physical exam. On top of that, most insurance doesn't adequately cover mental health care and our Loss of License insurance limits our coverage if it is for mental health reasons. The pilot with issues is forced to deal with them himself or risk losing his job. (Alcohol, anyone?) The entire system pretends pilots don't have mental struggles at some point in their lives, and those that admit to it are marked for the rest of their careers.

Among the ranks of every pilot group, there are wingnuts. We all know who they are, but there is no process to help these pilots find better attitudes or mental health skills so long as they stay off the FAA's radar. We avoid flying with them when we can. We shake our heads when their names come up again and again in conversation about odd ducks among us. In fact, there are two pilots I have vowed I would never fly with again, even if it meant quitting my job, because of their bad behavior and unstable personalities. (Both were expats flying in Berlin back in the early 1990's.)

The kneejerk reaction is coming, folks. Get ready to have every SLF make a dumb joke about locking the captain out of the cockpit or questioning if you feel okay today. The cry for cockpit video is already starting. The media is laughing at pilots on the air for arguing against them. For those of you who still like to do your PA greetings/comedy routines from the forward galley - please stop. You look and sound weird when you do, and you're jokes aren't that funny. That's the last impression we need to leave passengers with - goofy pilot who thinks it's open mic night at the Improv.

[Oakape]

Flying is safer than ever, and cheaper than ever. The is zero correlation between safety and the cost base of the airline in the Western World.

I have read a lot of crap on this thread, but this would have to be the biggest load of rubbish so far! Are you really that naïve?

[skyhighfallguy]

SD...your observation about robin williams is brilliant...kudos

[Volume]

just small thougt apart from switches, doors, computers and airline business...

It looks now that this event is a crime, no longer an aviation accident. So will the aircraft accident investigators still be involved? Will we ever see a final report? Or will it become a criminal investigation by now?
Is there an international law which still allows the officials from all countries to be involved (for aircraft accident it is)? Who is responsible now, France (it happened on french ground)? Germany (it happened on board of a german vessel)? Will it still be a public investigation? There never has been a public 9/11 accident report, for none of the 4 aircraft.

And another thought: People committing suicide in public want to make a statement, otherwise they kill themself silently at home or somewhere in the woods. People commiting suicide at their place of work want give a statement to their employer (there are frequently people killing themself in their office after they have been fired).
So if that guy wanted to make a statement, did he leave final last words on the CVR? If he should have planned the whole plot before, he surely would have thought about this detail. Which could be the reason why the prosecutor is so confident about what happened, while of course not talking about this detail in public now.

[TheInquisitor]

any psychologists here, why is it that we now have several pilot suicides with many pax killed yet I have never heard of a bus driver doing a suicide and killing the passengers along the way?

You don't need psychology to answer this - merely physics.

Kinetic energy increases as the square of the velocity. There is every chance that a bus crash at 50 mph is survivable. An aircraft, at ~500 mph, has 100 times the kinetic energy, and if flown deliberately and directly at a mountainside, has no chance of being survivable.

Hence, there is a guarantee that you cannot be held responsible for your actions post-facto. A bus crash may only leave you badly injured - and still having to face the music.

[John James]

The guy had some kind of problem as he booked off his training for a period. Not a good sign and I am surprised the heads didn't red flag him and tell him to take a year off and come back when he is ready.
He sounds like a 'loner' living at home which is OK but can cut two ways introspectively imo. His FB site has some inferences .
I bet Germanwings is going to keep the two front seats warm at all times now.
There is no way they can test for substance abuse either I suppose.

[paxhumana]

First post, registered since 2008.

I post only to state that we must change the industry to one where a pilot is given every support possible - industry-paid training, a buddy/apprentice program, and a liveable salary from day one. It's impossible to remove all forms of stress, but harried working conditions and financial stress do not make for good humans, let alone good pilots.

[Sunfish]

AKAAB:

[QUOTE]The real crux of the situation is that we pilots are forced to avoid mental health treatment, even basic counseling, because it becomes a required reporting item on our next FAA physical exam. On top of that, most insurance doesn't adequately cover mental health care and our Loss of License insurance limits our coverage if it is for mental health reasons. The pilot with issues is forced to deal with them himself or risk losing his job. (Alcohol, anyone?) The entire system pretends pilots don't have mental struggles at some point in their lives, and those that admit to it are marked for the rest of their careers. /QUOTE]

Well said, but will the industry confront this question or stick their head in the sand?

[thcrozier]

Is it true that even marriage counseling raises a red flag on your medical these days?

[Longtimer]

Experts applaud Transport Canada’s decision on new cockpit rules
Ian Campbell Mar 26, 2015 02:32:39 PM

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Industry experts say they’re all for a move from Transport Canada to force Canadian airlines to have two people in the cockpit at all times.

It comes following initial reports from investigators that the co-pilot of Germanwings flight 9525 deliberately crashed his plane in the French Alps.

“I’m stunned, absolutely stunned that a pilot in anyway, shape or form could cause grief to an airplane,” said one spokesperson. “I just can’t understand that, and this has happened before, look at the Malaysian Airlines flight that disappeared in the Indian Ocean.”

Ruth-Ann Rayner is a former flight attendant with Pan-American Airlines and she said in her day, they had four in the cockpit.

“We had four in our cockpits because we had 707s and DC-8s, there were always to be at least two in the cockpit, this was in the days prior to locked doors,” she said. “If there were two of the four out of cockpit, for whatever reason, quite often they would tap one of us flight attendants to come up and be an extra voice or pair of years in the cockpit.”

“It’s not unusual anymore because there are two in the cockpit and when they are entering or exiting and the door is open, the flight attendants stand in the galley, so no passengers can get up to the washroom and into the cockpit.”

Wings Magazine Editor Matt Nicholls believes the move today could be the start of an industry-wide change.

“Airlines across the world try to meet a very high standard of aviation safety, throughout the board, not only in the cockpit but on the engineering side and I know every airline strives to meet an extremely high level. So it’s very disappointing for them and a tragedy for the community when something happens,” he said.

“It sounds like a given, having two people in the cockpit makes sense if anything happens in terms of mechanical failure but also in the event of a horrible tragedy, like this, where someone’s mental state is in question or there is unforeseen circumstances on the flight deck, it makes sense to have both bodies in there.”

“This is just one more element that I’m sure will be adopted across the board,” Nicholls said.

Air Canada was first out of the gate today with its statement:

“Regarding flight deck protocols and access, as these involve security measures we cannot discuss them. Air Canada is compliant with CARs and ICAO recommended practices. However following initial reports on the Germanwings accident we are implementing without delay a policy change to ensure that all flights have two people in the cockpit at all times.”

WestJet issued the following Transport Canada’s decision:

“WestJet will implement a change in policy to ensure the presence of two members of the flight crew in the flight deck at all times. For reasons of safety and security, we will not comment further on flight deck protocols.”

[oldoberon]

for those not liking the murder scenario, evidence shows he was aware and operative, has to have operated the lock switch twice to prevent emergency entrance code working). Can't have been mixup confused about a mess he had got in, plenty of time to A) get up and open the door, B) call the ground.

Read this non suicide post by PACE far more fitting with the events.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france-72.html#post8919354

[Dried ears]

DenisG makes a very good point at post number 1586:

(2) Has/have the Captain and crew attempted to use the security code to enter the FD (30 sec call sound on FD, should be hearable on CVR)? If not, why?

Why did the French prosecutor in his hasty sweeping statement today not mention this, or lack of it?

[FlyingTinCans]

There really needs to be some educating here with regards to the procedure of having a cabin crew present when a pilot leaves the flight deck.

It has absolutly nothing to do with stopping a pilot from doing something he/she shouldn't do.

You need to visually verify from the pilot seated position who is trying to access the flight deck. On some types of aircraft a CCTV monitor shows the seated pilot who is at the door.
Some types do not have this and therefore need a cabin crew member in the flight deck to look through a peep hole in the door so the pilot can stay seated at the controls.

Some airlines have adopted to keep this policy even if the type of aircraft has changed or been updated to allow a CCTV/Monitor from a seated position to be installed. But the origins of the procedure and the legalities of needing to do it are firmly routed in monitoring who is accessing the flight deck, not to prevent pilot suicide.

If it was a pilot suicide prevention procedure its got some rather gaping holes in it!

[crisisguy]

with my medical /psychotherapist hat on, even people with personality disorders (likely a full blown Narcissist with Narcissistic Personality disorder could have a rageful outburst like this) but even these people still have a desire to live - suicidal ideation is a different ball game entirely.

[ChissayLuke]

So. Lufthansa appear to have said that here is no stopping a 'rogue pilot'.
To commit mass murder.
Sorry, Lufthansa. Not good enough.
If this is how you, as a company, feel, why would anyone risk their lives flying with you? Ever again?

[Gonna]

Everybody seems to be very enthousiastic about the idea to have two people in the flight deck at all times. To be honest, I am not. We have the cockpit door to keep terrorists out. If all the terrorist needs to do to get past it is apply for a job as cabin crew, the door is not of much use anymore.

[NilVolentibusArduum]

It's time that the management of any airline starts paying a little more attention to fatigue, stress and the human behind the crewnumber.
You can't put those young guys with huge debts, huge amounts of stress, alarming fatigue levels and no time for social support at home and pretend that everything will be fine.

Where is EASA and europe when our pilots are suffering? Stop talking about the cockpit door procedure, and let's talk about the real problem!

[tmac21]

Quote:
Someone who has embarked on a suicidal path often feels a sense of peace - they're no longer going to have to deal with the constant emotional pain.
AirScotia
Pace
The prosecutor has discounted suicide

You're being picky. Whilst , if guilty we determine the act murder, the individual may have decided upon suicide

[Profit Max]

Dried Ears: "DenisG makes a very good point at post number 1586:

'(2) Has/have the Captain and crew attempted to use the security code to enter the FD (30 sec call sound on FD, should be hearable on CVR)? If not, why?'

Why did the French prosecutor in his hasty sweeping statement today not mention this, or lack of it?"

Probably because they didn't hear it? And as many have pointed out already, if the door is set to "locked", the buzzer would be inhibited.

[FIRESYSOK]

Why go to lengths to explain.

Many questions here regarding ejecting FDRs, iPad control, live video monotoring, flight attendant emergency phones, and armed babysitters; all written by those who fail to grasp the bottom line: That you cannot foil someone intent on doing harm. You simply cannot.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

DenisG makes a very good point at post number 1586:

Quote:
(2) Has/have the Captain and crew attempted to use the security code to enter the FD (30 sec call sound on FD, should be hearable on CVR)? If not, why?
Why did the French prosecutor in his hasty sweeping statement today not mention this, or lack of it?

No alarm will sound if the pilot in the cockpit had set the "lock" position on the door .. as he made !

[AKAAB]

On the plus side, the single-pilot airliner scheme discussion is squelched forever. Pilotless airliners - still on the table, but only after we have a decade of driverless cars and zero accidents.

[emjanssen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsCaptain View Post
emjanssen: How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?

This is one thing that is troubling me as well.
This conclusion can reasonably be made by cross matching the timestamps of the ADB mode-s "selected altitude" messages with the timing of the sounds of someone pushing FMC buttons on the CVR.

Quote:
09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:52Z.567 T,3c6618,43.122208,5.676482,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.036 T,3c6618,43.122894,5.676993,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.546 T,3c6618,43.124271,5.678166,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:54Z.096 T,3c6618,43.125295,5.678689,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.676 T,3c6618,43.125961,5.679421,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.156 T,3c6618,43.127157,5.680259,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa

Maybe true, but it is speculation.

In my opinion the French Prosecutor is not following ICAO Annex 13.

Happy to read that IFALPA just came with a statement.

http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/Press%20&%20Media/2015/15PRL13%20-%20Germanwings%204U9525%20accident%20investigation_IFALPA%20 strongly%20condemns%20leaking%20of%20CVR%20data.pdf

[Ingenieur]

Dried ears

This has been addressed numerous times
If locked and timing out the 30 sec buzzer does not sound
He probably locked it as soon as the cpt left the cabin
And a few times while he was trying to get in
The buzzer would never sound

It only sounds if in 'auto' mode to give the crew to verify ID

The door was locked
The plane was piloted into the ground
The ap alt was reset to 100'
The fo was alivecand breathing
Never requested help
All this in a few minute period

It took 8 minutes
The time out was 5
So if he was incapcitated and accidently locked the door the cpt could have gotten in after the 5 minutes expired
Since he could not it means the fo hit lock again

It's clear what happened

[Leightman 957]

I have read all the posts before posting. I wish others did. I have not seen a resolution to whether the altitude set was made one time only, just before the beginning of descent, or whether there were subsequent resets, as has also been posted. This makes a big difference on the question of consciousness. The noise of breathing, without characterizing any changes in it, is by itself no proof of consciousness. If unconscious, knocking on the door, and musings about what one moral issues one thinks about during an 8 minute suicide, are moot confusions.

[Murexway]

Pace:
There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLINDI once flew a trip with a junior copilot with whom I'd never before flown, into one of the world's highest and most challenging airports, at the end of day one in a three-day sequence. Without out knowing anything about him, I might have flown the leg myself, but I knew his background was in military fighters, the cockpit atmosphere during the day had been totally normal - relaxed and friendly, it was daylight, and good weather, so he flew the leg.

On the arrival he was holding a good bit more airspeed than I was comfortable with fairly late in the profile, however, so I reached over for the lever and casually announced that I was going to go ahead and deploy the slats.

He immediately slammed the throttles shut, turned to me red-faced and asked in an angry tone, "Do you want to fly this f**** thing yourself?"

Many things went through my mind in a fraction of a second, but I resisted the urge to say, "Why yes, I believe I do." I knew if I did, I would build a brick wall between us and I'd be flying solo. Transferring duties at that point and flying without normal call-outs would have compromised safety, since I knew he'd let me crash rather than say anything in his mental state.

We continued with standard call-outs, etc. and he flew an otherwise flawless approach and landing.

Once we left the airplane nothing was said between us, even during the trip to the layover hotel. I changed and went to the restaurant to find him sitting alone at a table. I sat down, ordered, and said nothing.

After a few minutes of silence he said, "I guess I shouldn't have said that." I started laughing and we then had a discussion about the vast differences between flying single seat fighters and airline transports.

The remainder of the trip was normal and we parted friends. But I was concerned enough about his cockpit explosion to follow his subsequent trips for awhile and touch base with his captains to see if there were any repeats of his cockpit outburst. Aside from a few nits, no captain had witnessed anything similar, so I dropped it. But I'd never before witnessed anything like it in 30-years of flying.

So you really never really know.....

[TheInquisitor]

So. Lufthansa appear to have said that here is no stopping a 'rogue pilot'.
To commit mass murder.
Sorry, Lufthansa. Not good enough.
If this is how you, as a company, feel, why would anyone risk their lives flying with you? Ever again?

Because it is a simple fact.

As unfortunate as it is, if somebody is intent on causing harm, either to themselves or others, and their intent is not known in advance, there is little that can be done to stop them. This applies to anybody in any situation or profession. All that can be done is to analyse what they did, and try to make changes to prevent re-occurrence of the same sequence of events. There will, however, always be a way - it is not possible to completely eliminate risk - in ANY environment.

The aviation industry uses the ALARP standard - As Low As Reasonably Practicable - in risk mitigation. This means that, whilst concreting pilots into the flight deck after boarding may be a way of eliminating the possibility of in-flight FD intrusion - it is hardly practicable.

And commercial realities often have to be taken into account when deciding what is 'practicable'.

[Capt Kremin]

In 1999, before the advent of the current cockpit doors, an Egyption Airlines First Officer who was about to face disciplinary issues from his airline, managed to crash a 767 into the Atlantic Ocean and kill 217 people, even though the Captain had gotten back into the seat and was trying to recover the aircraft.

Having a FA sitting on the jumpseat will do FA to prevent a re-occurrence of this.

While it is possible now to quantify the number of lives lost as a result of increased cockpit security, and keen observers also class MH370 as a probable candidate here, it is not possible to put a number on how many potential lives have been saved by these measures.

The answer to this problem lies in monitoring our fellow pilots and taking an interest in their welfare. Aviation is a balance, a compromise. Always was, always will be.

[Bond'll Do]

....really like most parts of your reply/input, Sir.

Many F/D crew (incl. alcohol) not really sure what 'normal' is in that day-today environment and put up with a load of 'stuff'.

As any Psychiatrist/Psychologist will tell you...hopefully truthfully....there is no test ever to explain why someone just 'snaps'.

Dysfunction, mentally, can come as either 'inwardly-directed' suicide at almost a moment's notice and 'exogenously-directed' to 'kill them all' within frighteningly short timescales. (Almost common in Post-traumatic stress cases, such as war scenarios, for just one example).

The truth is that despite people saying things like he/she would never do that, unfortunately, we are governed by brain activity and anyone can do anything under certain circumstances that are completely undetectable beforehand.

How the relatives/family/friends react will likely be their eventual understanding of the above truths.

[Eaglebaby]

According to recent findings the pilot was the "terrorist" so the door did not help any.

[A310bcal]

So why was the flt deck door kept locked, why did the co-pilot keep the door locked, why did the co-pilot not talk to ATC ?....that explanation is the biggest load of BS I've heard for a long time. :ugh:

[the_hawk]

@Leightman 957: set once, see the post above yours

but door lock was activated at least twice in the 8 minute descent period

[flyawaybird]

I also think that during those years of Pan Am, most A/C used to have four Cockpit Crew because they had a Flight Engineer and Navigator besides the Captain and F/O. Other than that they might have had a positioning crew in the cockpit. Nevertheless this co-pilot was determined to fly the plane to the mountain.:sad:

[ExSp33db1rd]

It all goes back to 9/11 - and the perpetrators behind all that, viz locked cockpit doors

I bet all the passengers had to take off their shoes to satisfy security before boarding.

Sorry, don't want to sound insensitive but I'm sure you get the point, the Bad Guys - of any persuasion - will do precisely what they want, whenever they want to do it, despite our best efforts.

[Odysseus]

John James: post-mortem toxicology is absolutely feasible and these days highly accurate providing the correct body is identified. For my sins I have attended a lot of fatal multi-casualty disasters in my career (the vast majority - but not all - thankfully non-aviation related) and I have little doubt that both the pre-mortem medical records and post-mortem toxicology will be respectively scrutinized and run very carefully. A post-mortem - and I hope this doesn't distress any relatives - will also be looking very carefully for medical problems such as tumours etc. which can absolutely cause aberrant behavior. But actually, the incidence of that is really low. It is not zero so most of the anecdotes people have read are true but it is low.

[oldoberon]

I have read all the posts before posting. I wish others did. I have not seen a resolution to whether the altitude set was made one time only, just before the beginning of descent, or whether there were subsequent resets, as has also been posted. This makes a big difference on the question of consciousness. The noise of breathing, without characterizing any changes in it, is by itself no proof of consciousness. If unconscious, knocking on the door, and musings about what one moral issues one thinks about during an 8 minute suicide, are moot confusions.

my bold and italics

Don't think you have.!

The CEO of GW/LH has confirmed the BEA statement that the Lock switch was operated more than once 5 mins apart.

You should understand the relevance/significance of that as you have read all the posts included twice where I have posted (as have others) extracts from the 320 manual explaining the Lock function and time delay.

[Lonewolf_50]

Rex: are you suggesting that might have been a straw that broke a camel's back? :cool:

[tartare]

Unfortunately I suspect there won't be enough left of the co-pilot to do an post crash forensics on his brain to determine any presence of abnormal physiology etc. that might influence behaviour as some previous posters have suggested.
Hard to believe that what was a terrible tragedy now appears to be even worse.

[RexBanner]

Not sure if there is sarcasm intended there but just in case not, no I'm saying subjecting flight crew to the same security measures as passengers in the light of what has just happened - and the very notable fact that there is an axe on the flight deck - exposes such practice as the sham that it is and ought to be repealed immediately.

[janeczku]

Is it normal for this info to be requested from ATC ?


DAP info (such as SELECTED ALTITUDE) is routinely interrogated by the surveillance system from all suitably equipped aircraft and visualized on the controllers screen either as track label or in the flight list.

[DenisG]

Quote:
@the hawk

but door lock was activated at least twice in the 8 minute descent period
Was that stated in a press conference or a presumption? The pilot may have been to busy trying to break the door down to check his watch and try the code again.

Normal breathing and no talk could be the result of being incapacitated.

I can remember that there was a post on this. I could not find it again. The French Prosecutor did not state this. Somebody had mentioned that LH CEO mentioned this. But it has not been reconfirmed to my knowledge.

[kenjaDROP]

During the Lufthansa press conference earlier today a (seemingly informed) media member asked the panel for further information on some 'abnormalities' in, what I understood to be, the crew's actions on the downward leg, DUS - BCN.
I believe it was stated by the panel that this would be followed up. Yet, I don't see any further reference to this in media reports nor in any other posts here.
Was this dispelled?
Just wondering if something had 'gone off' between the two crew on this leg it could have been a trigger for what occurred on the return.

[Ivanbogus]

CNN: "Transponder data shows that the autopilot on Germanwings Flight 9525 was reprogrammed by someone in the cockpit to change the plane's altitude from 38,000 feet to 100 feet, according to Flightradar24, a website that tracks aviation data." What? There is no way anyone can see what's been programmed on the FD................

[AndyJS]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but maybe it's possible the co-pilot hadn't planned this. It could have been a spur-of-the-moment decision as a result of something that happened at the start of the flight. For instance, maybe he took umbrage at an innocent remark from the captain in the first few minutes of the flight and decided to crash the plane just minutes before he actually did so.

[Flightmech]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but maybe it's possible the co-pilot hadn't planned this. It could have been a spur-of-the-moment decision as a result of something that happened at the start of the flight. For instance, maybe he took umbrage at an innocent remark from the captain in the first few minutes of the flight and decided to crash the plane just minutes before he actually did so.

What? So you are saying "I didn't like that comment the Captain made to me during pre-flight, so I'll crash the plane and take everyone with me" Really?

[the_hawk]

@Ivanbogus: as has already been posted, there is a way

some explanation can be found here (http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64620&viewfull=1#post64620)

[DaveReidUK]

CNN: "Transponder data shows that the autopilot on Germanwings Flight 9525 was reprogrammed by someone in the cockpit to change the plane's altitude from 38,000 feet to 100 feet, according to Flightradar24, a website that tracks aviation data." What? There is no way anyone can see what's been programmed on the FD................

Or you could just read the numerous previous posts explaining that there is ... :ugh:

[EEngr]

With one pilot, you'd halve the probability of an event like this happening.

I don't even want to think about the logistics of bathroom breaks. :hmm:

[Reders]

CNN: "Transponder data shows that the autopilot on Germanwings Flight 9525 was reprogrammed by someone in the cockpit to change the plane's altitude from 38,000 feet to 100 feet, according to Flightradar24, a website that tracks aviation data." What? There is no way anyone can see what's been programmed on the FD................

The Mode S transponder can relay a lot of data not shown on FR24...

[StatorVane]

In response to some comments about pilots and mental health I might try to share my own experiences from the mental health perspective both a a pilot and as someone who worked in metal health care in the UK National Health Service.

The first thing we need to understand - all of us in society, not just in the aviation industry - is that mental illness is something that can affect anyone at any time and for any reason. Society attaches a stigma to mental illness that is unhelpful and this is bourne out of ignorance.

There are (very generally) two branches of the disease to consider. One is the long-term illness that affects the sufferer on a permanent or semi permanent basis. This may be as a result of brain injury, structural changes in the brain or electrochemical disturbances requiring long-term medication. These conditions are clearly incompatible with aviation and such people are considered unfit to hold a medical certification. An example would be schizophrenia.

The other branch is the shorter-term acute condition that affects the suffer for a limited time. The individual may suffer one episode or more in his lifetime. There are a variety of disorders but we generally talk about 'depression'. The problem with depression is that it is quite difficult to screen for. The rate of depression amongst flight crew is about the same as the national average. This is because depression can arise as a result of many external factors including stress, chronic fatigue and other illness. It is very difficult to pre-profile someone for a propensity to develop depression. Some individual can develop recurring episodes but provided you fall into type 2 and you are properly treated there is absolutely no reason why you might get a subsequent incidence. Furthermore, new treatments for depression make the suffer better able to deal with a range of challenges so we have started to see great improvements. The latest thinking even goes so far as to suggest a person successfully treated for common depression is actually less likely to develop a subsequent episode than a previous non-suffer, although the findings are complicated and I personally don't fully understand them.

You might think that we should start be screening out all those pilots ho have been diagnosed with depressive illness in the past. That would probably mean many pilots being pulled aside, most of whom have made full recoveries and returned to normal life and learnt a lot about themselves in the process. Also, these people tend to demonstrate great responsibility and have shown that they can deal with the illness through to recovery. Are we really sure we want to do this?

What we can't do very well at all predict who might get depressed in the future. In fact we are terrible at it. We can though identify factors that place people at risk and try to mitigate those factors. You, yes you, are just as likely to suffer from depression as me, and as the next person, as far as the statistics show. So better screening seems to achieve nothing other than highlight personality biases.

What is needed is a better approach to the reporting and treatment of mental illness and a way of educating people that they can seek help, get it and get fixed. The chap who posted the question 'you can get flagged up for marriage counselling now can't you' or words to that effect proves my point - no you won't get flagged up! You will show the ame that you can bring up, discuss and are prepared to resolve your issues. You will prove that you are responsible. Would this person conceal chest pain?

As pilots we need to be responsible not just when it comes to our professionalism on the flight deck but particularly when it comes to our own mental health. We all can suffer stress, worry, anxiety. We need a system that means we can go to for help if we need to. I bet there are many pilots who need help but don't seek it for fear of losing their medicals or losing their jobs. This needs to change.

[oldoberon]

Was that stated in a press conference or a presumption? The pilot may have been to busy trying to break the door down to check his watch and try the code again.

Normal breathing and no talk could be the result of being incapacitated.


It was stated earlier today by a number of posters including some from germany who were watching the statement.

As for those saying perhaps the captain used the wrong code CEO of LH has confirmed all cabin staff know it.

Clues add up to co-pilot locking him out.

[Capvermell]

Maybe he didn't want it to look like a suicide. Maybe he was trying to create a credible decompression/hypoxia accident scenario, starting the descent but then passing out, and hoping that any evidence to the contrary would be destroyed in the high-speed collision with the mountainside.

If any of that was really true then surely he would have just acted like the pilot of Silkair 185 or MH370 by pulling the CVR and FDR circuit breakers to stop both data recorders before he initiated any form of suicidal action or anyone was beating on the cockpit door with all of that being logged for crash investigators.

Also surely if he wanted to die but was still hoping to trigger a big life insurance payout for his dependents his best bet would have been to turn off the CVR and FDR and then de-pressurise the airplane and let it fly on its original autopilot track till it ran out of fuel and ran in to a hill or mountain on its own, just as the ill fated Helios jet did. Although as this wasn't a 737 he couldn't have used the pressurisation switch in Manual mode dodge and would have had to de-pressurise the cabin deliberately.

Still hard to figure though why someone wants to kill another 149 people deliberately and yet not tell the world at large their motives for doing so.

[CargoOne]

Few cents
- he wanstn P2F
- GW are LCC just by market niche but not really LCC as organisation. Dont mix low price of the tickets with low cost of operation
- up to my best understanding all GW pilots are on the same payroll and seniority as LH who are they best paid pilots in Europe and still people here trying to suggest his action has something to do with working conditions
- the only solution to this problem is not 2 persons at any time, nor second door, nor lavatory in cockpit, nor different access system. All of above will not prevent this to happen again. The only solution which solves the problem at root is pilotless aircraft and I am sure we will get there. It will not be quick so I reasoanbly expect the current generation of pilots will be able to retire before we will be at 100% pilotless

[tmac21]

Quote:
@the hawk

but door lock was activated at least twice in the 8 minute descent period
Was that stated in a press conference or a presumption? The pilot may have been to busy trying to break the door down to check his watch and try the code again.

Normal breathing and no talk could be the result of being incapacitated.

I think the airline said the door lock was set at 5 minutes therefore must have been activated twice within the decent time

[DenisG]

Guys.

It is an assumption that the lock-mechanism was activated twice during the time of descend. It is a logic interpretation. But an assumption. I have only read one poster saying the the LH CEO stated that the lock-mechanism was used. But not that it had been used twice. Please be careful here.

[the_hawk]

@LASJayhawk, tmac21:

I think the airline said the door lock was set at 5 minutes therefore must have been activated twice within the decent time

exactly, LH CEO Spohr said this

of course there is a possibilty that an agitated captain misses his small time window to re-enter after the 5 minutes have expired

[Alain67]

1. Needless reveal by Prosecutor (not an aviation professional or regulator) of screams heard on CVR within 48 hours even as relatives are still in deep shock.
2. How could the Prosecutor possibly know of intent or voluntary action at this early stage?
3. What investigative purpose or public purpose is served by revealing information from the CVR before a careful audio analysis, properly synced to flight data is complete? This is not an overnight process.
4. Conversely, strong statements by a person in a position of supervision over an investigation may 'set' minds and hinder the careful unearthing of alternative explanations and chain of events.
5. In any case, I understand that air accident investigations in France have only recently been assigned to regional prosecutors a few months ago as a result of administrative and legal changes.

Hi from a French newbie (not pilot either) having listend to the radio all day long.

1. I think exactly the opposite. The circumstances (captain trying to enter during several minutes) make people think passengers were aware of a serious problem ; the prosecutor said they shouted in the last moments (duration not mentionned). I understand this as a (rather desperate but) generous attempt to bring some peace to relatives.

2. The prosecutor did not mention a voluntary action. What he said was much more precise and technical : he said that setting the FMS cannot be anything but voluntary. Since he might even have ignored himself what is a FMS, it's quite obvious he got this info from professionnals involved in the inquiry.

3. Well, the "audio events" reported seem to prove they have listened to the CVR, but I'd be open to hear your definition of "carefully".

4. (with a link to 2.) Which strong statements please ? I want to emphasize, for example, that he did not say the word suicide at any moment.
He did say "terrorism", not to exclude it, but just to say that there is, at the moment, no evidence that this person might have had such an intention.

5. Regional prosecutor might suggest that this guy could have personal methods, etc ; that's quite wrong, he is just a member of the national justice department.

[DaughterofDaedalus]

Voice is recorded, countless flight details recorded, why not video as well? Not saying the pax should beable to watch the show live. But with tech so cheap truckies & care homes are installing CCTV it seems wrong to not have it in the flight deck. It would provide clarrity to this crash.

[vanHorck]

I am hoping there is a criminal element to leaking information from an investigation, which can be prosecuted.

There cannot have been too many senior French military staff attached to the investigation who were close enough to know the details leaked to the NYT, so let's hope he gets found.

It would have been much better for all concerned if we had continued assuming hypoxia for a few days till more was known.

Now the prosecutor had to rush to calm everything by coming out with the facts as he knew them. I listened to his entire monologue and he did quite a reasonable job, inclusive refusing to call it a suicide and emphasizing time and time these are preliminary findings. Nevertheless it left many more questions than the answers he was able to give.

We can only hope the FDR is rapidly found and the data are cross checked against the VCR. Simultaneously no doubt the next few days will reveal more details about the FO.

I was thinking of his parents, their grief is obviously equal to all the other parents but on top of that their beloved son killed another 149 people, and that must be an additional inhuman burden. Jeez, how many of us have children!?

We are sometimes short fused here, we shouldn't, every one is entitled to their opinions even if they are not a pilot or had the weakness of not reading the entire thread and asking a question already answered. At least we are alive.

I'll crawl back in my hole now.

[janeczku]

However the resolution of the data transmitted is 100 feet.
So 13,008 or 96 feet is fake.


You are wrong. Mode S/ADS-B SELECTED ALTITUDE parameter is stored and transmitted in a 12-bit register with 16 ft resolution.

When FCU is set to 100 ft (minimum setting on A320 FCU), SELECTED ALTITUDE parameter would be stored/transmitted as 96 ft (rounded to 16ft resolution).

[McGinty]

During the Lufthansa press conference earlier today a (seemingly informed) media member asked the panel for further information on some 'abnormalities' in, what I understood to be, the crew's actions on the downward leg, DUS - BCN.
I believe it was stated by the panel that this would be followed up. Yet, I don't see any further reference to this in media reports nor in any other posts here.
Was this dispelled?
Just wondering if something had 'gone off' between the two crew on this leg it could have been a trigger for what occurred on the return.

Would the CVR have retained some of the cockpit voices from the end of the downward leg? Or would taxiing time have resulted in that being overwritten?

[mickjoebill]

There are numerous cases in the USA where a disgruntled worker shoots his workmates, knowing that he is likely to be killed by police if he doesnt drop his weapon.

Perhaps this accident fits into the far more common disgruntled worker categorey than suicide with mass murder?


He had told passengers "he was going to die with them by driving the bus into Kazinga,"
The above is a quote from a disgrunted bus driver who had been sacked for being drunk. Fortunately his attempt to crash a hijacked bus into a crocodile infested river was thwarted.


This occured in Feb 2015 and is the only incident I can find of a brief trawl of the net of a bus driver wanting to commit suicide and take passengers with him.
There are numerous reports of bus drivers who suicide but few if any have apparently inflicted harm on their passengers whilst doing so, apart from this recent disgruntled worker.


If the A320 and other flying incidents were not disgruntled worker syndrome, I wonder why pilot suicides seem to be in a categery all of their own where their suicide kills others?


Has this rare phenomena of killing passengers been researched by aviation industry to explore both its cause and prevention?

If not why not?


Mickjoebill

[TheInquisitor]

I am hoping there is a criminal element to leaking information from an investigation, which can be prosecuted.

There may not have been any wrongdoing in this. I understand that, in many jurisdictions, once it has been determined that an aircraft accident was the result of a deliberate act, the Annex 13 investigation stops, all material is handed over to law enforcement authorities and it becomes a criminal investigation - to which differing standards ref release of info apply.

Standing by to be corrected if somebody knows better?

[Lonewolf_50]

Not sure if there is sarcasm intended there but just in case not, Attempt at wry humor on the one hand, and on the other hand ... sometimes a "final indignity" is what it takes to trigger someone with a smoldering case of temper or anger. (True confession here: I have had some odd displays of temper over the years when such a trigger showed up in everyday life via some chicken**** that has tripped my wire when I was upset about something else).

I agree with your follow on point.
subjecting flight crew to the same security measures as passengers in the light of what has just happened - and the very notable fact that there is an axe on the flight deck - exposes such practice as the sham that it is and ought to be repealed immediately.

[mary meagher]

I am currently supervising four teenage lads who want to become pilots. They are learning to fly gliders, just as young Andreas Lubitz began his training, ten years ago. So many young men - not so many young women - are drawn to the idea of flying. But not all will be suitable candidates.

Before encouraging any person to fly, he should visit the medic. A lot of conditions will rule out the career right at the start, and some of these are mental instability. Others are as incidental as colour blindness. And one unusual condition turned out to be absolutely lethal to his single passenger, a condition called ankylosing spondylitis, meaning he could not turn his head well enough to look out and so killed his single passenger in a midair collision.

There are many many youngsters, and some not so young, who would like to be commercial pilots. The supply of eager candidates is tremendous, many even being willing to pay for their training. And if they achieve this ambition, they are at the bottom of the stack, locked into the seniority system. Pay far from glamorous. Even the uniforms are tacky these days. Often far from home and family, relationships suffer. If you tell the truth to your AME, you can loose your job, so often problems will be hidden.

Clearly young Andreas had problems. Perhaps a domineering father. He doesn't look very happy in San Francisco. He may have resented being under the orders of his captains. He may have wanted to stage his resentment in so spectacular a fashion that his departure from the planet accompanied by 150 innocent victims will be long remembered.

The number one responsibility of any pilot carrying passengers is to keep them safe. The possibility of mental instability or even being unable to turn your head to look out properly, should be your transfer to a job where you will not put people's lives at risk. The reason pay for a pilot has become so very low is that too many people are eager to be pilots. Simple.

Meanwhile, yes, require more hours experience of the new first officers.
And nevermore only one person alone in the cockpit, please!

[Elledan]

"Is it technically possible that the Captain may have hit the button (intentionally or unintentionally) when leaving the cockpit with the door open or not open yet. Hence activating the lock mechanism (red light outside) without anybody noticing in that moment?"

No, it's not. The switch in question requires one to lift it up with a certain amount of force before it can be moved. It cannot be shifted into another position 'by accident'.

[md80fanatic]

"Clues add up to co-pilot locking him out."

Or that the keypad wasn't functioning properly. Just last week a 10-key keypad, that had worked flawlessly for over 10 years had a malfunction (6 key wouldn't register) leaving me with a locked gate between my vehicle and myself, and no way to get through it.

[DCrefugee]

Still hard to figure though why someone wants to kill another 149 people deliberately and yet not tell the world at large their motives for doing so.

Given the F/O's reported change in demeanor during the TOC/TOD briefing, he may only have wanted to kill the Capt. The other 148 may be collateral damage.

[olasek]

leaked to the NYT, so let's hope he gets found.
I hope he doesn't get found.
Plus I don't think it is a prosecutable crime.
Did this revelation cause any damage? I doubt it.
Perhaps if the story was totally false there could be damage/harm but it doesn't appear to be the case.

[WhatsaLizad?]

I guess I'll wait for the final analysis of the CVR and the FDR (if the data can be recovered).


All I've heard is the FO was breathing 'normally' and ignored the CA's request to come in.


Questions:


-Was the breathing based on the boom mic input from the FO?


-Did the FO get up and lock the deadbolt after the CA left?


-What is the medical possibility someone's breathing could remain 'normal' under the duress and the inevitable impact even if intentional?


-If the deadbolt wasn't locked, is it still possible the FO had a medical condition occur where he slowly became unconscious and thought he was hypoxic, and rolled the ALT selector down before blacking out?


Apologies if this has been already covered.

[ksa83ai]

Not a pilot but was once a health pro'. Ex military and have been on plenty of transport aircraft. How to explain his behavior? What about some form of Monge's disease? Reports are that he seemed normal and had no known history of mental health issues, but some people, have been known to become susceptible to Chronic Mountain Sickness aka Monge's disease. What is the normal cabin altitude of airliners? He may have had a low tolerance combined with repeated exposure to non sea level altitudes. Why is it that he took so many innocents with him? Madness.

[slats11]

Don't flinch from calling it what it is; this was a terrorist mass murder. The piece we're missing is the motive - and even if it turns out it isn't political, that doesn't diminish the terrorism.

100% agree Ranger.

This (and MH370) were not simple suicides. They were more complex than this.

They were both terrorist acts. However it is a different version of terrorism, and hence some people are having difficulty recognising it for what it is. Instead of the stereotyped religiously / politically motivated terrorism from "outside", this is terrorism from within.

Could be lots of things. Resentment at company. Resentment at society. Something else.

Sad depressed people kill themselves. Angry people kill others, and are willing to die in the process. But the killing of others is an important goal.

Unless the investigators have access to information not in the public domain, we don't know the specific goal in either case.

But pretending it was a simple suicide is as ridiculous as pretending this (and MH370) was the result of some bizarre combination of random equipment malfunctions / failures.

[Ollie Onion]

^^^ not really possible, if the keypad had malfunctioned you can just call the flightdeck on the interphone and the remaining pilot can automatically or manually open the door for you to get back in.

What is more likely:

- Captain leaves flight deck
- FO has some sort of unexplained medical event rendering him incapacitated
- FO still for some reason while incapacitated initiates a descent without clearance.
- Captain tries to call flightdeck for re-entry and either fails to use the emergency entry code or some mysterious fault prevents it from working.
- Aircraft crashes.

or:

- Captain leaves flight deck.
- FO initiates descent without clearance.
- FO ignores entry requests
- FO puts door into LOCK preventing emergency entry.
- FO sits back and waits to the end calmly as it is almost all over.

Having know someone who did commit suicide, I concur with all the previous comments. Often people who have decided to end it all are calm and happy as they feel it is almost all over, there is no rational thought at this stage.

The prosecuter did NOT rule out suicide just said that the act of taking 150 people with you would not be classified as suicide by him. Mass murder probably.

[Ingenieur]

Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz had to STOP his training because he was depressed and suffering 'burnout' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3012053/Andreas-Lubitz-Germanwings-flight-9525-French-alps-crash-French-alps-Germanwings-plane-crash-Airbus-A320-Barcelonnette.html)

Good article

Police found something at his house of importance
His 'leave' or 'break' was for mental health issues

The door was not locked bybaccident or inadvertantly
It was deliberate as were the control inputs
He locked the door and changed the alt setting within secs of the cpts exit

We know what happened
We will never know WHY

[Buster the Bear]

In the UK (Swanwick AC/TC and Prestwick) can see Selected Flight Level on their radar screens. This was a cartainly a major contributor to the reduction of Level Busts within the London TMA. You input it wrong, they will question you.

Assuming the French ACC has this, it would have been obvious rapidly that the SFL was zero! Without knowing the intentions of the flight (no RT response), the Air Force would no doubt have been informed rather quickly!

[Ingenieur]

@hawkerjet

Mass murder over a salary dispute?

[AKAAB]

A pilot in command has to wear 02 mask if he is the only one on flight deck?
Is it not possible that the Co-Pilot started to breath contaminated 02 the moment the door was closed?
Murphys Law says that it may be possible to charge the 02 system with Nitrogen?
"The reported normal breathing and no talk could still be the result of being incapacitated."

Only above FL410 in EASA/ICAO rules. Above FL250 in FAA rules, but there is an active movement to harmonize the US rules with the ICAO rules. ALPA and FedEx have a petition in the system to change the regs.

[oldoberon]

Or that the keypad wasn't functioning properly. Just last week a 10-key keypad, that had worked flawlessly for over 10 years had a malfunction (6 key wouldn't register) leaving me with a locked gate between my vehicle and myself, and no way to get through it.

loads of poster doing as you have picking on 1 point and giving a example of doubt, you must look at the whole picture.

A) why didn't he answer radio, ah they failed at just the moment the captain left FD

B) why didn't he get out of his seat and let the pilot in -ah he was paralysed with fear.

C) Finally why did he change altitude setting having just reached ToC, just having a play was he.

COME ON look at the whole picture.

[AndyJS]

We know that one thing the French prosecutor said cannot be true:

He said the passengers wouldn't have been aware what was happening until the last few moments.

But we also know the captain was trying to knock down the door. Many of the passengers must have been aware of this.

[AVR4000]

Pulling the CVR/FDR breakers and then initiate descent a few minutes later would be... suspicious I would say. It is very hard to explain a scenario along the lines of "the aircraft suffered rapid decompression and lost the flight recorders in the process" even if it would be possible to argue about damaged wiring as a cause of the recorder loss.

To me, CVR/FDR circuit breaker pull followed by a "bad event" is just too much of a coincidence for an "accident" scenario to fly.

It is the same thing with theories along the lines of "failed door" that has been posted in the thread. I would say that based on the available data, i.e. a normal climb to cruising altitude, no pressurization problems, captain leaves the flight deck, the autopilot is set to a very low altitude and descent being initiated followed by a failure to allow the captain to enter the flightdeck all points in a very specific direction.

I just don't believe in strange coincidences and "random events" such as:

1. The captain leaves the flightdeck.
2. Some "event" takes place and the F/O reacts to it by selecting the A/P to the lowest possible altitude.
3. As some kind of "bad luck", the flightdeck door jams, thus preventing the captain to enter the flightdeck after his lavatory visit.
4. The F/O becomes paralyzed by the "event" and/or becomes unconscious and never hear the attempts from the captain to re-enter the flightdeck, the repeated calls from the ATC and finally the GPWS/TAWS "Too Low, Terrain" and "Pull Up" warnings.

The only thing I could think about, if everything else (the door problem...) is disregarded is an event where the F/O becomes dizzy and then mistakenly turn the knob to "100 feet" instead of "10 000 feet". Even if we would assume something like a "fume event" making him dizzy and drowsy, the problem lies with the related door event (locking etc).

Especially the combination of an incapacitated F/O, which just re-set the A/P AND a door malfunction at the same time, exactly at the "right/wrong" moment is a very... low-probability event and therefore hard to believe. It feels to me like talking about a failure of the generators on engine number 1, loss of APU and then engine failure on engine number 2 and then insist that an accident was caused by this exact failure to the power generation onboard.

Another one would be loss of the FBW AND all hydraulics at the same time and then use it as a "number 1, main thesis" in an accident report or investigation without having concrete proof.

To me, a deliberate act would make "sense" out of the available data. Different technical failures would produce a different outcome. I have a hard time to find any failure that could explain the course of events, especially one that would be initiate the A/P setting selected. In any "incapacitation" scenario, the captain would have been able to regain access to the flightdeck and in this case we have data indicating not one but two deliberate activations of the door lock....

It had been better if the CVR data had been withheld for further analysis before being released but I am afraid that the final conclusion just can't be anything else than a deliberate act involving an autopilot re-set to lowest possible altitude followed by an open descent until the aircraft impacted the mountain paired with prevention of flightdeck access for the captain.

[weebobby]

Given the evidence anyone suggesting ulterior explanations is in fantasy land !
There is no way someone could of done the commands necessary without being in control of their actions...

Also from the Daily Mail:

"Police investigating the Germanwings crash said tonight they had made a 'significant discovery' at the home of pilot Andreas Lubitz, who deliberately ploughed the Airbus A320 into the French Alps.
Officers refused to reveal details of the potential breakthrough but said it was not a suicide note.
Speaking outside the flat on the outskirts of Dusseldorf, police said they had 'found something' that would now be taken for tests, adding it may be a 'clue' as to what happened to the doomed jet."

[DenisG]

FD door locked or not locked.

Just saw the statement of LH CEO Spohr again. Some had claimed that CEO Spohr had confirmed today during press conference that FO had locked the FD door. He did not say this.

Spohr said that either the Captain did not try to enter the emergency code or that the FO locked the door for 5 mins inhibition. He said they did not know which of the two was the case. But more probable was the latter one.

I also heard about the news from his home that they may have found something significant. But no further yet.

[thcrozier]

Perusing the last few pages here, I see a few comments quoting various officials which were made in at least 3 different languages, none of which were originally in English, the primary language of this forum.

English is my primary language, but I grew up in a Spanish speaking country and my Spanish is almost as good. Even so, it's very difficult for me to translate from one to the other because different words carry different connotations in different languages and cultures. It's very easy for the wrong message to come across, especially on subjective things, such as whether what someone said was "harsh", "unfeeling", or "callous".

[Ares]

100% agree Ranger.

This (and MH370) were not simple suicides. They were more complex than this.

They were both terrorist acts. However it is a different version of terrorism, and hence some people are having difficulty recognising it for what it is. Instead of the stereotyped religiously / politically motivated terrorism from "outside", this is terrorism from within.

Could be lots of things. Resentment at company. Resentment at society. Something else.

Sad depressed people kill themselves. Angry people kill others, and are willing to die in the process. But the killing of others is an important goal.

Unless the investigators have access to information not in the public domain, we don't know the specific goal in either case.

But pretending it was a simple suicide is as ridiculous as pretending this (and MH370) was the result of some bizarre combination of random equipment malfunctions / failures.

Terrorism has a very specific definition tied in with political aims, and this (and potentially MH370) ain't it - that has nothing to do with stereotypes, just legal & academic definitions. This is a simple case of mass murder - essentially the same as some fed up kid shooting up his school & committing suicide, or some office worker "going postal". Only in this case the weapon was a stick & the victims were all aboard.

[oldoberon]

I have read the so say transcripts in english, they are not transcripts they are press precis. I can read them in 10 min but the program was 40 mins and his answers were long.

the two poster who said it this morning were both german nationals watching the presser.

also if he set the 5 min lock once would have had to set it again, whether the CEO said that exactly or not.

[Nightingale14]

This is in reply to someone who asked what difference it would make if the cabin crew/ any locked out flight crew had the ability to contact ATC outside the flight deck (at present not possible on older planes like the 320). Well for a start we would be a good deal better informed about what actually happened on the plane from the get go instead of having to piece it together afterwards.

[slats11]

anengineer
As a passenger, I couldn't care less whether pilots are upset by a 'lack of privacy'. Privacy ?? What on Earth do pilots need privacy for on the flight deck ???? If you are in total control of my life and that of my family, being as you are, in command of a metal tube six miles up in the sky, hurtling along at 500mph, I want everything you do visible, checked, cross-checked and scrutinised. Privacy is not an option.

In all walks of life you have a choice, you don't have to fly, get on a bus, train or any other form of public transport how would you feel being videoed doing your job ? there has to be a level of trust in everything we do.


Lots of people in lots of different jobs have to deal with being videoed. Bankers, workers in shopping centres, airport staff, workers at McDonalds, security staff, staff at bars and clubs, law enforcement officers, public transport, cabs, call centre staff.... Why on earth are pilots anything special?

The dual goals of video are to deter crime, and to provide evidence if a crime takes place.

Most people support video when they are being protected, and are less supportive when they are being recorded in order to protect others. Then it becomes an insult and an invasion of privacy......

As with many other things in society, it is a two edged sword. Again, why are pilots a special case?

Most employees have to be a bit careful about what they say and do in company time on company premises. Its called common sense and diplomacy. If you want to slag off about management, its usually best to do it in your own time away from the office. Its not that difficult.

Pilots have historically been a bit of an exception. In a 1:1 conversation well away from management, pilots have argued the right to "privacy" - while on company time, sitting in very expensive company assets, and entrusted with the lives of 100's of the company's customers.

Expect this exception to disappear.

Just like real time tracking of aircraft post MH370, the customers (you know, the people in the back that ultimately pay your wages and without whom you would not have a job) will increasingly demand video security in the flight deck.

[igs942]

Unfortunately, the only thing that will 100% solve the security issue in this particular scenario will never happen due to cost as it would require a redesign of the nose of all aircraft to:



Move the forward bulkhead and external door back a metre or so towards the tail to accommodate a bunk in the cockpit
Install piddle bags in the cockpit (obv. the cheapest part)
Replace the internal door with a refreshment/meal hatch
Install a separate flight crew external door forward of the passenger door


I'd rather pay for an air marshal to spend the duration of the flight in the jumpseat...

[rideforever]

How can breathing be heard on the CVR ?

Perhaps only if he was wearing a mask. If he was wearing a mask then there is a possibility that the gas mixture was off causing strange behaviour.

There were 8 minutes after the descent. The pilot comes back and finds no answer from inside. Well he isn't going to put an axe through the door immediately. He will probably ring a few times and then knock on the door. That's 2 minutes gone.

He is in an unknown and weird situation, so decides to override the door, tries to remember the code and puts it in ... maybe he pressed a wrong digit. Then he has to wait 5 minutes to try it again ??? Is that how the mechanism works. There is not enough time.

Of course we could all jump into the hysteria and call it terrorism, and force all pilots to take a double-dose of prozac before lift off.

[txl]

kenjaDROP:
During the Lufthansa press conference earlier today a (seemingly informed) media member asked the panel for further information on some 'abnormalities' in, what I understood to be, the crew's actions on the downward leg, DUS - BCN.
I believe it was stated by the panel that this would be followed up. Yet, I don't see any further reference to this in media reports nor in any other posts here.
Was this dispelled?
Just wondering if something had 'gone off' between the two crew on this leg it could have been a trigger for what occurred on the return.

Neither dispelled nor confirmed.

At the press conference, a reporter for German Channel One news was referring to "reports" the pilot in question had shown "conspicous behaviour" on the downward leg. LH CEO Spohr said he wasn't aware of those and would follow up.

Other media refer to these "reports" as coming from passengers.

[ZOOKER]

john,
If you know the correct numbers, you can contact ATC from anywhere.

[chuboy]

Unfortunately, the only thing that will 100% solve the security issue in this particular scenario will never happen due to cost as it would require a redesign of the nose of all aircraft to:



Move the forward bulkhead and external door back a metre or so towards the tail to accommodate a bunk in the cockpit
Install piddle bags in the cockpit (obv. the cheapest part)
Replace the internal door with a refreshment/meal hatch
Install a separate flight crew external door forward of the passenger door


I'd rather pay for an air marshal to spend the duration of the flight in the jumpseat...

Or... just send an FA into the flight deck while the PNF is answering the call of nature, as is already procedure for many airlines :ugh:

[neville_nobody]

Glad to see that the authorities have ruled out conclusively all the possible medical scenarios before jumping on the suicide/pilot's fault bandwagon.:hmm:

The guy could have had a panic attack ( might never have ever been left alone in a plane with 500 hours TT) brain aneurysm, subtle partial incapacitation etc etc

The suicide theory is definitely an option but how about we look at a few other very possible options before we go down that path.

There seems to be a bit of an agenda being run in numerous media sources about needing real time CVR/Black Box data, which is going to solve nothing so I am not sure why it is being brought up.

[hot_pitot]

Nobody yet mentioned possible electronic glitch causing SFL to be zero...

Yes... and nobody mentioned EMP hit by North Koreans, alien abduction and static overload from too much balloon rubbing on their heads.
That electronic glitch must have knocked out the f/o, too. And the door mechanism.. or the five remaining crew members forgot the emergency code.

But to be fair, there may be all sorts of explanation... as there always is.
As we might never know for sure, we might stick best with good old Ockham:

"The simplest explanation is usually the correct one".

And by simplest I'd use the one with most known facts as of today.

[Loose rivets]

I've slipped behind with reading in, so forgive if this has been spotted. I came from the Mail On Line link above.

Why does this ring such a loud bell? My bold.


'He was a fitness fanatic who jogged most mornings and evenings and you could often find him returning home from sports shops carrying health supplement bags.

[mickjoebill]

Lots of people in lots of different jobs have to deal with being videoed. Bankers, workers in shopping centres, airport staff, workers at McDonalds, security staff, staff at bars and clubs, law enforcement officers, public transport, cabs, call centre staff.... Why on earth are pilots anything special?

Agree, feed the picture of the flight deck to cabin crew.


Mickjoebill

[OK4Wire]

Or... just send an FA into the flight deck while the PNF is answering the call of nature, as is already procedure for many airlines

Not going to make an ounce of difference, I'm afraid.

My airline already does that, and given the average age, english language ability and education level, she (or sometimes he) will do anything I tell her to do, even as far as locking the door for me.

If I was determined to enact an act of disaster, a 45kg 19 year old girl would not stop me from me doing what I want to do.

Send in 2? Now it's a lot more difficult.

[ILS27LEFT]

I think his family will definitely help with the investigation, and also his closest friends, if he had any. Not to mention the valuable input from his GP and psychologist.
He must have shown previous signs of mental weakness.
It is true that mental health conditions can affect anybody but this guy had a confirmed history of depression, stress, exhaustion, he probably did not plan his mission but he was vulnerable and he needed help. I have the image of a young fragile person, possibly fatigued and very stressed, exhausted, unhappy, who would see all those around him as enemies, nobody listening to him, nobody aware of his deep mental suffering, nobody helping or supporting him, a human being simply ready to explode at any time: the trigger could have been anything, including the Captain's landing briefing instructions, e.g. the way he spoke to him, anything really could have made this young FO very upset, and even angrier with his life, maybe he suddenly got so upset with the Captain to the point that he decided to give him a lesson and "prove to him and to the world who was really in charge of the plane", his action would have finally ended his state of mental pain and suffering. His revenge vs all suffering and pain. Maybe the deliberate act of crashing had not been planned, it could have just been the result of a malfunctioning and depressed brain, a sudden reaction to the extreme emotional pressure of the moment or of the day.
There are cases of mothers killing their small children when they decide to commit suicide and take their own lives, this is another example of how unpredictable and dangerous mentally ill brains can be for innocent people around them. It takes only a moment of uncontrollable anger or extreme emotional pressure to commit a mass suicide. The brain is incredibly complex and fragile.
Let's try and mitigate risk factors of hectic modern life like stress, fatigue, over-work, lack of rest, career pressure, extreme competition, unrealistic targets, micro managing people etc. as a good start; mental health has never been such a huge issue as nowadays in our very advanced western societies. Our brains are not meant to be constantly working under the extreme pressures of modern life, our brains do not work as computers.
Maybe we should all start to slow down a bit and think of real priorities in life, this would really be a good start and we would also be a bit happier, we could finally enjoy our jobs; we are just human beings in the end and we must take care of our feelings, emotions and essentially we must protect our fragile brains from mental illness.
A malfunctioning brain killed so many innocent people, again.
Societies and governments should therefore do all possible to mitigate the risk of creating more "ill brains" which simply means creating more mental health cases.:ok:

[silvertate]

Why would anyone leave a 600 hour pilot alone in the cockpit? I hate using the airplane lavatory in flight. it was only a two hour flight, get my drift?


Geez, where have you been mate? One spring (training time) I flew for three months without having an f/o with more than 300 hr total time. Do you really think I never visited the potty in all that time? Yes, this was big jets. That is the nature of modern aviation.




You are saying an ordinary person is going to kill himself and 150 people whilst on £68k and achieving his lifetime dream of flying, all while "breathing normally".



£68k for an f/o?? You are having a laugh, surely. For all we know he was paying the company to fly, like most of the f/os in certain lo-cos do. Oh, and paying off a £100k training mortgage at the same time.

[Radix]

I still think there is a 5% chance the "incapacitated" theory has merit.

What if the captain forgot the code to the door? Heck I draw a blank on my pin-code sometimes which hasn't changed in 10 yrs.

Does it happen that Crew forget the code and need the other crew member to help them out i.e. open the door to let them in?

If the F/O felt he was losing consciousness and his last action was initiating descent because he suspected hypoxia...... but his unconsciousness was caused by a medical event.... and the captain didn't have the code to the door....

I don't believeCabin Crew knows the code. That would be a very easy hijack target.

[neville_nobody]

Agree, feed the picture of the flight deck to cabin crew.

What does that do for anybody? They can't get in.

[RiSq]

Some things still are a bit strange, even if all the evidence points to it looking as a suicide. What doesn't make sense, is the actions after the alledged "Locking" of the door.

So - If this was an outright suicide, why not just nose dive and plough it into the ground. Why the 8 minutes of pretty much controlled descent? See, that bit is the bit which doesn't make sense. There was no deviation to the left or right, simply straight down.

Having thought about it, It sounds more like a calculated "Revenge" at all cost. The power of being the only person who can change said outcome. The power of having all those people at your mercy. The power of the captain and everyone being powerless. He was in charge and everyone was going to do what he wanted. When you look at it like this - the 8 minutes begins to make sense. There's nothing worse than the sense of not being in control.

Understandbly the CC / Capt and passengers were frightened. But if this was a revenge, not only against GW, His Captain, The world for screwing him over in some way, if he really was in a dark place then arguably its the perfect(all be it rather sick) revenge. The Alps could of been a place he visited on holiday or a happy time or maybe he pre-empted that a 430mph crash into a mountain would cause massive disintergration and hopefully destroy the black boxes, leaving everyone powerless.

The unlikely but still possible (Look how convinced we were it was a decompressurisation just hours ago) that some strange medical event / mental issue caused a moment that cannot be explained.

I wonder what they've found at his home - Medicine, an extreme interest in MH370? I think that will hold the clues more than any CVR / FDR at this moment in time.

[slats11]

Terrorism has a very specific definition tied in with political aims, and this (and potentially MH370) ain't it - that has nothing to do with stereotypes, just legal & academic definitions.

FBI ? Terrorism Definition (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism-definition)

Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code

18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:

"International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
1. Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
2. Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
3. Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
1. Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
2. Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
3. Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

If it is dangerous to human life AND appears designed to intimidate a civilian population OR influence to affect government...... then it is (legally) an act of terrorism. The definition is now very broad. Thats the way it is.

Many other states now have similarly broad legal definitions.

So terrorism is becoming broader. Domestic terrorism. Politically motivated terrorism. Religiously motivated terrorism. Ideologically motivated terrorism (when the motivation seems to some internal ideology rather than alignment with an external political / religious organisation).

[Snas]

Yes they do, and thats the reason for the deny option in the FD.

[chuboy]

Not going to make an ounce of difference, I'm afraid.

My airline already does that, and given the average age, english language ability and education level, she (or sometimes he) will do anything I tell her to do, even as far as locking the door for me.

If I was determined to enact an act of disaster, a 45kg 19 year old girl would not stop me from me doing what I want to do.

Send in 2? Now it's a lot more difficult.

Well it's a behavioural thing now. Just like before 9/11, no one really raised an eyebrow if pax wanted to visit the flight deck, before Germanwings (if murder-suicide turns out to be the cause of this tragedy) the sole pilot asking for the remaining pilot to be locked out of the flight deck might have seemed like a reasonable request to follow.

I don't think even the most gullible FA would be so quick to do the same now, particularly if instructions from the higher-ups to the contrary were made crystal clear.

Regarding your rather generalised remark about the physique of an FA, I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be a larger person on board to stand in the flight deck :suspect:

Besides, if you were determined enough to commit murder, there is little that could be done to stop you. Having a second person in the flight deck is mostly about making sure the other pilot will be let back in, and at least creates an opportunity for someone to open the door and raise the alarm in the cabin if your behaviour seemed suspicious.

[Caledonian1]

Statistical research suggests that an average of 1% of society is populated by psychopaths / sociopaths. Therefore 1 in every 100 professional pilots will have inherent psychopathic tendencies. It is also estimated that up to 4% of those at the top of corporate organisations have such a trait. This is an important fact of life and unfortunately you may not know who these people are until it is too late to do anything about it. As long as humans remain on the flight deck, this will inevitably happen again somewhere, at sometime. Those involved will appear to be 'normal' and it will come as a surprise to those who knew them. I hope not to be a trusting passenger on their last flight.

[Loose rivets]

I think this is the one that rang a bell. Flight standards skipper with huge experience one moment, and barking the next. There was some discussion at the time that these products may have been a trigger to a psychotic episode.

The young co-pilot of 9525 may well have been okay despite his history, but then an ingredient of these bizarre 'health' food things may just have been a trigger.

Yes, it's far-fetched, but there has to be a reason for the decent into such a deep disturbance. Just one line of thought.


Jet Blue

Osbon has been flying for jetBlue since the airline launched in 2000 and has a sideline selling weight-loss products, including a “shake mix that tastes like a cake mix.”

[oldoberon]

How can breathing be heard on the CVR ?

Perhaps only if he was wearing a mask. If he was wearing a mask then there is a possibility that the gas mixture was off causing strange behaviour.

There were 8 minutes after the descent. The pilot comes back and finds no answer from inside. Well he isn't going to put an axe through the door immediately. He will probably ring a few times and then knock on the door. That's 2 minutes gone.

He is in an unknown and weird situation, so decides to override the door, tries to remember the code and puts it in ... maybe he pressed a wrong digit. Then he has to wait 5 minutes to try it again ??? Is that how the mechanism works. There is not enough time.

Of course we could all jump into the hysteria and call it terrorism, and force all pilots to take a double-dose of prozac before lift off.

THINK ABOUT THAT AGAIN!!

If he inputs the wrong emergency code IT IS NOT THE EMERGENCY CODE.

Anyway the 5 mins is from the copilot switching to lock based on hearing the 30sec emergency code buzzer

[Lord Spandex Masher]

How can breathing be heard on the CVR ?

M I C R O P H O N E

[thcrozier]

Try Googling "Incidents of passengers subduing threats since 9/11".

We really are concerned that you guys are safe. Perhaps the idea of locking yourselves inside a fortress is outdated.

[Dan_Brown]

Has anyone on board have a certificate to say they are "sane"? I haven't either.

[txl]

According to a report by German tabloid Bild, six years ago the co-pilot had to interrupt his training for six months due to a "major depressive episode". Apparently he was in psychiatric care during that time. The report further states that in his personell file it is noted he should get special medical care regularly.

Although Bild is usually well connected, they tend to dramatize, so take this with a grain of salt. That said, I am astonished that a guy with severe depressive episodes gets a front seat in an airliner.

[4468]

Basil

So you think someone suffering from depression is "a nutter"?

:ugh:

[aguadalte]

I'd rather pay for an air marshal to spend the duration of the flight in the jumpseat...

An armed air marshal, you mean? And who would prevent a "loco" air marshal from shooting the pilots... another air marshal?

...and what would a marshal do to prevent a pilot from putting an aircraft into a spin? Or shutting off all engines? Or selecting full flaps at MACH 0.81/FL380? Another pilot?

Its a catch-22...

Let's stop the hysteria. The immediate reasonable thing to do is to bring a cabin crew member to the cockpit while one of the pilots is temporary out of the flight deck.

[L-38]

I work for a well known giant aerospace avionics company that is now drafting preliminary designs for the next generation cockpit of the future. The new generation cockpits targeted to be incorporated with newer airplane designs of 15 years from now, will prove as innovative in the 2030's as when today's computerized cockpits were when eliminating the Flight Engineer back in the 1980's.
Although details are still in the preliminary design phase, the innovative concept being worked on is to place the PIC in the airplane while placing the second in command on the ground. Both would be capable of equal control of the airplane if necessary, and either pilot would have a relief airman when with long range flights. Such a concept along with other benefit's, would almost certainly insure a survivor /witness in every crash.

[kaikohe76]

Re Wunwing's Post

I agree totally with he has suggested, that is, nothing has been definitely proved as yet. Yes it certainly does appear, that someone could not obtain access from the cabin to the F/D, are we absolutely sure beyond all doubt, this was the Captain & not the F/O for example. As with so very many serious aircraft accidents / incidents, there are very many individual factors involved in the lead up to the event. The only people who really know what happened, are of course not able to tell. So, even with the information gathered so far, yes it looks likely that certain events happend & certain actions were taken, but there is surely, much more information & data yet to come to hand.

[fireflybob]

All this talk about can the CVR pick up breathing - YES!

All the microphones in the cockpit are "hot" to the cockpit voice recorder.

On numerous occasions I have listened to my fellow pilot's breathing, especially when concentrating on a challenging approach!

[Ollie Onion]

Wi wing, you are wrong, I have been flying the A320 for many years for airlines all over the world and have never seen anyone don oxygen when the other pilot leaves the flight deck. His breathing could have been picked up if he was wearing his headset with boom mic. The major airline I worked for in Europe always required you to have your headset on throughout the flight. Sure there might be a highly complicated scenario at play here, but simple facts are this guy has a history of mental illness, took actions that crashed the aircraft and prevented any other crew accessing the flight deck. Sometimes 1+1 does equal 2.

[WingNut60]

So we don't have the bandwidth for real-time recording, because that would need way too many satellites and be too expensive but we will have enough to operate the aircraft from ground stations.


That should save a dollar or two!!

[LASJayhawk]

When ground testing a CVR, the area mic will pick up the sound of you moving in the seat, dropping an ink pen, passing gas, etc.

Several thoughts:

So they set the timer to 5 min, is this via software or strapping? And in any routine mx do they physically check the time? Assuming set for 5 min, means 5 min is taking it on faith, something we tend to frown on in aviation.

Machinery breaks, normally at the most inconvient time. But then again so do humans.

I have no doubt that they can tell the difference between an unguarded and guarded toggle switch being flipped. But without FDR data or associated aural warnings, telling which guarded switch is just supposition at this point.

I am somewhat leery of releasing information piecemeal that fits a supposition, no matter how likely it is.

We all are a small community, no make that family. And while they have made it sound like crazy uncle joe may well have done it on purpose, they haven't proved it to me to the point that I'm willing to make him a mass murderer. So until further data is made available, could we all refrain from making statements that make it seem as absolute fact?

[TheInquisitor]

Lots of people in lots of different jobs have to deal with being videoed. Bankers, workers in shopping centres, airport staff, workers at McDonalds, security staff, staff at bars and clubs, law enforcement officers, public transport, cabs, call centre staff.... Why on earth are pilots anything special?

The dual goals of video are to deter crime, and to provide evidence if a crime takes place.

Most people support video when they are being protected, and are less supportive when they are being recorded in order to protect others. Then it becomes an insult and an invasion of privacy......

As with many other things in society, it is a two edged sword. Again, why are pilots a special case?

Most employees have to be a bit careful about what they say and do in company time on company premises. Its called common sense and diplomacy. If you want to slag off about management, its usually best to do it in your own time away from the office. Its not that difficult.

Pilots have historically been a bit of an exception. In a 1:1 conversation well away from management, pilots have argued the right to "privacy" - while on company time, sitting in very expensive company assets, and entrusted with the lives of 100's of the company's customers.

Expect this exception to disappear.

Just like real time tracking of aircraft post MH370, the customers (you know, the people in the back that ultimately pay your wages and without whom you would not have a job) will increasingly demand video security in the flight deck.

A lot of calls going up for video surveillance.

The simple truth is that video surveillance would add very little in 99.99% of investigations. Investigators can derive a remarkable amount of information from audio recordings. FD mikes are incredibly sensitive, and all other connected mikes (boom mikes on headsets etc) are usually recorded too on most modern types. And multiple mics allow for an impressive amount of conclusions to be drawn - such as exactly where on the FD sounds are coming from. Different switches, levers, controls all make slightly different noises - these can be examined in great detail and firm conclusions drawn in most cases.

To include video recording would require significant modifications - the recorders would need a huge capacity increase, likely needing a redesign, or the installation of an additional recorder. And a cheapo solution like a GoPro would be useless - the recorders are built the way they are, and installed where they are, for a purpose - crashworthiness - and assuring that purpose is NOT cheap.

Neither is the re-certification of ALL the aircraft so modified, to ensure that the mod hasn't introduced new problems with the rest of the carefully-designed aircraft systems.

In short, it will be a significant cost - for probably very little real benefit - even before we get into privacy issues.

A FAR CHEAPER option would be to hire more pilots - to take the pressure off already over-worked and stressed crews. And train them properly. And pay them better. And.... And...

And it would have done nothing to prevent what happened on this flight - and likely shed very little additional light on the eventual happenings.

[Tfor2]

Anybody looked into the mental condition called "OCD"? That's Obsessive Compulsion Disorder, where the sufferer is under a compulsion to perform senseless acts. We all have it to a certain extent, like having an impulse to shout out something obscene at a church service.

A planeful of pax should never be allowed to be under the complete control of one person. "They're all mine" would occur to the helpless victim of this condition, and there's no way of identifying him or her in the training.

It is a given that there should always be more than one person in the cockpit at all times, otherwise more such events will be inevitable.

[Ranger One]

Terrorism has a very specific definition tied in with political aims, and this (and potentially MH370) ain't it - that has nothing to do with stereotypes, just legal & academic definitions. This is a simple case of mass murder - essentially the same as some fed up kid shooting up his school & committing suicide, or some office worker "going postal". Only in this case the weapon was a stick & the victims were all aboard.

Slats11 has chimed in with the technical definition, but I urge people - again to read the link in my first post:

How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings (http://markmanson.net/school-shootings)

The thesis is that the more accurate definition of 'terrorism' is in the method, not the motive. When you kill a lot of innocent people in an extremely public and brutal way, doing something that will dominate the media for days and weeks, that IS a form of terrorism, whatever the precise motive.

As the author of that article pointed out in respect of school shootings and other mass murders, it's about the TV ratings, the publicity, the message, being remembered, becoming a household name; whatever the motivation, personal or political, it's an act of terrorism. That's the correct lens to view this kind of act through.

[Turbine D]

For those who think the A-320 door ought to be "somehow modified" as a result of this terrible event, there is always two sides to a story. Here is the other side of the story:

March 28, 2012
By Tina Susman

New York — Federal authorities on Wednesday charged a Jet Blue pilot whose midair meltdown on a New York-to-Las Vegas flight forced his co-pilot to lock him out of the cockpit and make an emergency landing while passengers restrained the distraught captain.

The pilot, Clayton Osbon, was charged with interfering with a flight crew by the U.S. attorney in Amarillo, Texas, where the plane made its emergency landing, the Associated Press and Amarillo.com reported.

A Jet Blue spokeswoman, Sharon Jones, told The Times that Osbon, who lives in Georgia but is based in New York City, had been taken off duty pending an investigation into Tuesday's incident on Flight 191. The airline refused to comment on whether Osbon would continue to receive his salary during the suspension, but Jones said that "he is still employed with Jet Blue."

Osbon's rant began when the flight was more than three hours into its journey. Witnesses, several of whom recorded video of the incident, said the pilot became enraged after he was locked out of the cockpit by his co-pilot, who had become worried by the captain's erratic behavior. A passenger on the jet who was an off-duty pilot entered the cockpit and helped land the plane as several passengers used their belts and plastic handcuffs to hold down Osbon. Osbon was taken off the jet in Amarillo and hospitalized.

Jet Blue said the FBI was investigating the incident, which it said appeared to be more the result of a medical issue than security-related. "As the events unfolded, it became clear that security was also an element of this episode, but not the overriding issue in our opinion. The FBI has said terrorism is not a factor in this incident," the airline said on its blog, Blue Tales.
Jet Blue noted that it was the first airline to install bulletproof cockpit doors, which are "coded and virtually impenetrable. When the flight crew inside the deck close and lock that door, no one can get in."

It expressed gratitude to the customers who helped pin down Osbon and said all the passengers on board the jet, which eventually landed in Las Vegas after its unscheduled stop in Amarillo, would be refunded their fares and given a voucher for twice the value of their original tickets.

Jet Blue is an American "Low Cost" carrier.

[oldoberon]

Why not have biometric authentication from *both* flight deck crew to change FMS settings at cruise level. It takes less than a second for my iPhone to authenticate fingerprint.

I mean we already have elaborate authentication mechanisms for nuclear launch sequences and such. How hard would it be to implement something simple to thwart the crazies in the cockpit.

ah so the "crazy" says no I won't scan my fingerprint we can stay at fl380 til we run out of juice, even easier for him.

[Sheep Guts]

2 options here.

1. Move the cockpit door to include the forward toilet in the Flightdeck. Or have doors to secure the forward galley and have only crew members use the forward toilet.

2. But the 2 crewmembers on Flightdeck at all times is a good policy. My Company has the same policy and we are in the Far East. It was the MH370 loss that stimulated that change for us. Some companies in Europe and now in Asia, have adopted this policy. My thinking is though an ICAO directive or recommendation should be inplace. Then individual states should enforce adoption of such a policy. Even it being already inforce through the FAA. Also Insurance companies should be pushing for this policy aswell.

[toaddy]

A simple crude low bandwidth video of the FD, say 1 frame per second, not 30 or 60 as TV or movies, could aid the sensitive audio feeds and in this case could help vindicate the FO if it showed him slumped over, suffering, etc. We're prolly videoed 100 times driving to work every day, what's one more... No one likes to be videoed, but we all suffer through it daily. Sometimes it helps us, sometimes it convicts us, but it usually doesn't leave us guessing what happened.

[CogSim]

And when it fails and the flight plan takes the aircraft through a line of severe weather???


What fails? The sensor? Like everything else, there would be redundancy. Back up sensor, that sort of thing. My point is having something like that would make it virtually impossible for *one* unstable pilot to take control.

[AKAAB]

Captain Osbon was ill, not suicidal. He was a respected Check Airman that was working himself to exhaustion. He was locked out of the cockpit by an astute First Officer after he exited unexpectedly.

The charges were eventually dropped, as I recall. Sadly, I heard he's back to normal and hangs out at his local airport with his old flying buddies, but can't get his medical reinstated.

On my lanyard, I still wear the laminated American Flag Clayton made and was handing out to JetBlue crewmembers after 9-11. He was a good guy that got quite ill.

[flt001]

Bizarre to imply hours flown in anyway is responsible for 'losing it', if anything it's the opposite.

I was down route as a fairly junior LH FO, while having a drink with the skip he totally lost it and got furious about an internal political disagreement. He'd been around for decades and seemed to view things as not as good as they used to be and pilots no longer having respect internally. Not saying he didn't have a point but this anger spilled over to his attitude with the rest of the crew, he was very very angry.

Now I'm not implying he would go on to commit mass murder but more to make the point that 600 hours or seniority is largely irrelevant as an indication of anger towards the airline or the world in general.

[AKAAB]

And, anyone that can keep his record clean can buy his way into a cockpit?

I'll resign before I allow that in my cockpit. I think most pilots would revolt over selling the jumpseat and refuse to fly.

Next silly idea...

How about this. We start a bulletin board for Professional Pilots to discuss industry topics without non-pilots chiming in. This is not a charette, people.

[TheInquisitor]

The very WORST thing I feel we could do here is rush to the clamour of 'Something MUST be done about this!!!'

Frankly, the best thing to do here is NOTHING - aside from enforcing a '2 persons present' rule already adhered to in many jurisdictions.

If we rush to implement 'something', it is likely we will be dealing with unintended consequences somewhere down the line - and we will have solved nothing.

Remember, we are (if confirmed) dealing with what is probably the rarest cause of all accidents - only SIX cases have been recorded in the whole history of commercial aviation, and not all were positively confirmed.

[ams6110]

Like everything else, there would be redundancy. Back up sensor, that sort of thing. My point is having something like that would make it virtually impossible for *one* unstable pilot to take control.

And what then happens when one pilot is legitmately incapacited (heart attack, stroke, seizure, etc.) and the single remaining pilot must take control and divert to nearest landing?

[Dingo63]

This investigation will likely get very frustrating to follow due to the legal implications and financial exposure for all the principles. In a year or so someone will start posting vids from found sim cards from pax , but I'm cynical enough to think vested interests and maintaining public trust will likely trump many more public statements of fact or theories from officials.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

loads of poster doing as you have picking on 1 point and giving a example of doubt, you must look at the whole picture.

A) why didn't he answer radio, ah they failed at just the moment the captain left FD

B) why didn't he get out of his seat and let the pilot in -ah he was paralysed with fear.

C) Finally why did he change altitude setting having just reached ToC, just having a play was he.

COME ON look at the whole picture.

This happens over and over, posters ignore the evidence that doesn't fit their scenario. That's backwards. Form your scenario from the evidence. Truthiness is when we believe that what we WANT to be true is true. Stick to truth.

[slats11]

The thesis is that the more accurate definition of 'terrorism' is in the method, not the motive. When you kill a lot of innocent people in an extremely public and brutal way, doing something that will dominate the media for days and weeks, that IS a form of terrorism, whatever the precise motive.

As the author of that article pointed out in respect of school shootings and other mass murders, it's about the TV ratings, the publicity, the message, being remembered, becoming a household name; whatever the motivation, personal or political, it's an act of terrorism. That's the correct lens to view this kind of act through.

Again, 100% agree Ranger.

The event itself and the consequences of the event are the key elements of the more recent definitions of terrorism.

The underlying motive (religious, political....) may help us to understand, and may possibly aid identification of high risk people in the future. But the underlying motive does not in itself make (or not make) something an act of terrorism.

Sometimes the motive is irrational and not aligned with anything coherent. Sometimes there no stated or apparent motive. Sometimes no one ever claims responsibility. That does not mean it is not a terrorist act.

[LASJayhawk]

Solution: Fire all civilian airline pilots and then replace them with military pilots of the respective countries.

I proposed this many years ago for the U.S., except in a slightly different form: fire all the airline pilots in the U.S. and replace them with FAA pilots. That would be the end of crashes and regulatory violations.

FAA pilots are more than capable of breaking an aircraft. They do quite frequently. :E


Look the upshot is if you don't trust the driver, don't get on the bus. Simple as that.

[Pontius]

Basil & Ollie Onion,

Even in this day and age with quick-donning oxygen masks etc there are still plenty of places around the world where it is compulsory for a pilot to wear an oxygen mask if left alone on the flight deck. Japan is one country that springs to mind, where > 25000' a pilot left on his lonesome has to wear one and > 41000' at least one pilot must be on oxygen, no matter how many other pilots are present. These rules, I believe, are based on the US FARs but maybe the USA has moved away from such practises. I am not suggesting this was the case here and I am not suggesting any relevance but I just want to ensure that just because you've never heard of it or never done it doesn't mean the practise does not exist........no matter how daft.


Arkmark,

Before you pontificate and try to advance an obvious vendetta of yours to rid the world of 'cadets' (an action that seems common in Australia) and rant about the qualifications of the Captain, you might want to check your facts and realise the skipper had > 10000 hrs total and > 6000 hrs on the Airbus. He previously flew for Lufthansa (they're a rather large and well-respected airline in Europe, which is north of Darwin) and, whereas I'm sure he couldn't claim to have done the 'hard yards' :roll eyes: in the Outback mustering cattle, I think his qualifications and experience more than fulfil even the requirements of Australia....the heart of aviation and great practises.

[TheInquisitor]

Adding MORE technology is NOT the answer!!

A piece of technology will require power - and you must have the ability to cut power to it for safety reasons - so what would be the point of it being there in the first place?

If something were to deny certain actions to a pilot, again it MUST have an override function - for safety reasons - because equipment can fail, and cannot possibly be designed to take ALL possible scenarios into account. (Even an almighty Airbus can be overridden, albeit not easily!) - and if the system can be overridden by a pilot intent on malfeasance - again, WHAT IS THE POINT OF IT BEING THERE?

Folks, look at what we have here - a piece of 'technology' (the flight deck door), albeit mostly mechanical, installed in good faith for good reasons, that COULDN'T be overridden (from outside the flight deck, at least) - and look at the result......

[oblivia]

Some people here seem keen to suggest that the general public's insistence on cheap fares has somehow contributed to the misery suffered by underpaid, overworked pilots. This is very wide of the mark.

The problem isn't that airlines can't make money from increasingly tight customers. It's that whenever they do have any money they give it to shareholders instead of investing it in the workforce.

AA, for example, has announced a $2 billion buyback this year, which is to say that it's taken $2 billion of cash and given it straight to shareholders. Can any AA pilots confirm that the company is perfect and that this $2 billion is surplus to requirements?

All airlines, all big companies in fact, do the exact same thing these days. It doesn't matter how profitable the company is, costs are driven to the bone anyway to maximise the payout to shareholders.

Needless to say, management themselves invariably own lots of stock themselves—and using the company's cash to pay off shareholders also means that they can be assured of almost any pay rise they want. And financial engineering means that they can do this almost regardless of the health of the underlying business.

So let's put this to bed. It's not the customers' fault. Most folk are in exactly the same boat as pilots—employed by companies that exist solely to pay returns to shareholders, with employees viewed merely as a "human resource".

Indeed, this is why people understand and sympathise with striking pilots. It's not the public who want to see you downgraded.

[skippybangkok]

Quote:
WTF was a co pilot with only 630 hours flight time doing flying an airliner ?!? Even the pilot at 6000 hours after 10 years in aviation is too inexperienced to be a bloody A320 captain.

Yep. It's obviously inherently unsafe to put low houred pilots in the flight deck. Just look at the terrible safety records of BA, KLM and LH who have been doing it for decades, and RYR and EZY who have been doing it for 15 years.

Agree.... But let's not forget the biggest death toll in history was a arrogant training captain who ignored his 'junior staff'. KLM in Tennerife

Experienced captains also screw up, as did the Airfrance a few years back

[EternalNY1]

Have an FA fingerprint as a tie breaker. Simple voting logic.

Yes ... that's flawless logic.

I can see it now. A raging in-flight fire. One of the pilots has a heart attack. The other is stuck up in the cockpit, with the autopilot refusing to leave cruise altitude until the flight attendant comes up to the cockpit to bio-ID, at which point they can start an emergency descent. :ugh:

This thread just keeps getting better and better.

[ksa83ai]

some health supplement can build up to toxic levels in the body, and may cause problems. Some are water, bone, FAT soluble... A person can cause themselves harm if they over use or otherwise over-do-it on their intake. Among fat soluble supplements are vitamins D, A, K, and E. There're others. Then there're supplement composed of combinations of many diverse constituents, which I never take, since to be safer, I try to focus on what I've identified as an actual individual deficiency. While staying well hydrated is fundamental, high energy and extended exercise is dehydrating. A lot of families are grieving today.

[volarecantare]

If as it is reported there had been concerns of mental health one wonders if assessment of the pilot alone is sufficient. It may be time to look further into their lives, their finances etc to assess their background stresses when making evaluations. There could be family grief, divorce, financial or romantic issues, insomnia or other factors which may not be revealed by the pilot himself. . How many guys come into work at the limits of their stress, say nothing, are asked nothing and show zero emotions. The days of promoting the tough face is over. There needs to be a recognition that on top of jet lag and where we work with a different crew each day, without anyone being able to notice a turn down in behavior as in most regular jobs, sometimes its family and friends ,ex wives, girlfriends partners, children or the Bank managers who might be the last to be surprised when something like this happens.

[Odysseus]

Wow. You are against the idea of people who you carry on-board, wanting to be informed about the safety of the flight?

That is a serious sense of entitlement you have there sir.

[flyingchanges]

It may be time to look further into their lives, their finances etc to assess their background stresses when making evaluations. There could be family grief, divorce, financial or romantic issues, insomnia or other factors which may not be revealed by the pilot himself. Well, there goes at least half of us...

Could make bankruptcies and negotiations real interesting.

[Wrightwing]

Andreas seemed like a very "sensitive" young man, dividing his time between living with his parents and his male room mate. Posing in front of the Golden Gate bridge in SFO. He doesn't seem to fit the image of the typical macho aviator. I wonder what kind of affect this could have on one's career at Lufthansa, or the stress that would cause?

[olasek]

Indeed, this is why people understand and sympathise with striking pilots.
Speak for yourself. I live in US and I am a pilot (not commercial) but I never detect any sympathy on this side of the Atlantic when pilots strike. Everybody knows that except of some rookies working for regionals they are well compensated compared with other professions. Oh yeah, we know their compensations went down considerably in the last 10 years but they still are well compensated. Talk to pilots like Les Abend from American Airlines (you can see him often on CNN these days when there is another crash) - he complains about the recent pay-cuts but grudgingly admits he is still well compensated.

[flyingchanges]

Sir, you seem to forget that you are flying customers. We would like to be safe. If you are telling us that we need to pay you more to not kill us, that is blackmail, pure and simple.

How about we start by paying pilots enough that they can afford to have their own house to go home to.

[rudolf]

I am a commercial pilot and there is a bond between myself, my crew and my passengers. That is that we as a profession transport our charges safely from A to B, any professional aviator that doesn't understand the gravitas of this statement is in the wrong job. I really don't know whether to cry today or vow to continue to do my job to the best of my ability, probably both to be honest. This act is so far from anything I could have expected that it has completely thrown me, and I DO truly mean knocked me for six.

[FlyNavyAI]

...that the scrambled Mirage was in the vicinity of the aircraft when it went down. Don't know the time line of the ATC request for the aircraft to squawk 7700, but since the Cold War I don't believe we've had a/c at immediate launch ready. So by the time the Mirage launched, the a/c was almost certainly down. I believe I read something on this string about locals reporting Mirages flying around, but after the crash.

[patrickal]

As we watch all of these post flying back and forth on how we should now screen every commercial pilot in the world to a level beyond how we screen the captain of a nuclear submarine, can we at least look a some perspective? The Air Transport Action Group (ATAG) released a report last year showing that there would be more than 37.4 million commercial flights in 2014, which equates to over 100,000 per day. Given those numbers, even if we had one incident per year such as this tragic event, the failure rate would be around 2.7027e -8.

I realize the horrible consequences for the families and friends of those lost on this flight. But I still am going to fly two or more times per month for work, and will not feel any less safe than I did before. Airline transport is BY FAR the safest method of travel. Stay calm and fly.

[galaxy flyer]

Both pilots in a RPT jet should be full ATP licensed pilots--the U.S. requires it along with disqualifying medical standards including any signs of depression. If nothing else requiring 1,500 hours and the ATP weeds out the under-motivated, the depressive.

[gettin' there]

As we watch all of these post flying back and forth on how we should now screen every commercial pilot in the world to a level beyond how we screen the captain of a nuclear submarine, can we at least look a some perspective? The Air Transport Action Group (ATAG) released a report last year showing that there would be more than 37.4 million commercial flights in 2014, which equates to over 100,000 per day. Given those numbers, even if we had one incident per year such as this tragic event, the failure rate would be around 2.7027e -8.

I realize the horrible consequences for the families and friends of those lost on this flight. But I still am going to fly two or more times per month for work, and will not feel any less safe than I did before. Airline transport is BY FAR the safest method of travel. Stay calm and fly.

By far the most sensible post yet

[snapsix]

Agree.... But let's not forget the biggest death toll in history was a arrogant training captain who ignored his 'junior staff'. KLM in Tennerife

That was 38 years ago today, btw. It was a chain of events that all started from a single bomb threat. Just proves that even if the plane is flying empty and ATC would be fully automated you cannot exclude the human factor. Apart from making a bomb threat, somebody even codes the software.

I am not a pilot and this is my first post here. Just wanted to tell you guys that as i have followed this discussion from the start this whole discussion has now started to repeat itself and is full of pointless speculation of how to make the aviation safety more complicated so that nobody would have to take a responsibility of themselves and everything would be controlled and supervised by locks and buttons and live camera feeds, cloud computing and whatnot.

If the outcome from Flight 9525 will be that all the commercial flight companies start to follow the 2-in-cockpit policy as it has been under the FAA then i think that's just fine.

I remember being a little boy and being asked to come to see the cockpit with my father. I was so little that all i can remember is those two friendly men laughing and saying something funny in front of all those impressive amount of gauges and buttons and whole bunch of other interesting stuff. It's not possible nowadays to go there anymore and i can't help but wonder how has the work of pilots changed over the years when there is little to none interaction left with the passengers. How much do they realize there is people at the back and how much they just wait the work day to be over.

[pattern_is_full]

1. How many "suicide/homicide by pilot" attempts have been initiated while there was another person (CC or FC) actually in the cockpit?

2. As mentioned, in the case of the JetBlue pilot with a mental aberration, the locked cockpit door facilitated protecting the flight - the opposite (perhaps) of the current tragedy.

3. In the EgyptAir crash, the CVR recorded a physical fight between the pilots for control of the aircraft, right up to the moment of disintegration. That case occured before post-9/11 security measures. Which cuts both ways - the attempt to overpower the errant pilot was unsuccessful, but at least someone was able to try.

4. As to the possible addition of the American FBI to the investigation - they happen to be one of the best criminal investigation units in the world, and especially adept at "psychological profiling" of mass or serial killers.

They may be able to spot something (or a pattern of somethings) in the history of the FO that would be missed by someone less expert (even someone sitting elbow-to-elbow with this pilot on the flight deck). They may be able to provide the "why" - if this does turn out to be an intentional act. Which may help the families cope in some way. And provide pointers or warnings that prevent a recurrence with a different pilot.

Just food for thought....

[zac21]

[Both pilots in a RPT jet should be full ATP licensed pilots--the U.S. requires it along with disqualifying medical standards including any signs of depression. If nothing else requiring 1,500 hours and the ATP weeds out the under-motivated, the depressive.]

Exactly,, right on the money:ok:

[baggersup]

IF this is indeed what reports are saying it is...a deliberate downing...

Beyond the horrific tragedy, it boggles the mind to wonder why this method of suicide, if one is so down that ending it all is the goal?

A bottle of pills after a good whisky and a lie down would accomplish the same personal goal. Quietly and privately.

Why take all these souls with you? That's the part I just don't understand about a scenario like this.

Spur of the moment thing after some long-term suffering? Someone on board toward whom he has the attitude of "if I can't have you nobody will?"

Why this way?

[DozyWannabe]

The event itself and the consequences of the event are the key elements of the more recent definitions of terrorism.
Sorry guys, but I think a little perspective is called for here.

The Online OED in both UK/World and US English editions still defines "terrorism" as :
The unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims
Now - whatever one may think about how the term "terrorism" was used and abused by politicians/arms manufacturers/security corporations in order to feather their own nests, it makes no sense to widen the definition further.

If a person succeeds in an attempt to take their own life, then that's suicide - not a crime, but nevertheless a tragic and painful experience for those that knew the person. However if a person in doing so takes the lives of others along with theirs, then that's murder - and it is a criminal act.

But the whole point of terror tactics is that in doing so, there is an organised group with a distinct aim in mind, and the group is implicitly threatening further acts if those aims aren't met. Unless there's an organised group of depressed and suicidal pilots out there with a coherent set of goals which, when satisfied, will prevent them taking their own lives and those of others, then this alleged type of incident, while criminal, is categorically *not* a terrorist act.

I do think it's fair to say that the FAA flight deck door locking/strengthening regs later adopted by others (and IMO in common with a lot of political/industry reaction to the 11th September attacks) were rushed in definition and implementation, and as such, not properly thought through.

I've said many, many times (particularly in the many Tech Log AF447 threads) that as an engineer, one must always be cognizant of the bigger picture - specifically that when developing a technical solution to a problem scenario, it is invariably a bad idea to concentrate exclusively on that single scenario without taking into consideration the knock-on effect it will have on other scenarios. The post-9/11 flight deck door modifications and procedures fell right into this particular trap because they were tailored to fit a single scenario only - namely an attempt to endanger an aircraft from an individual outside the flight deck. The consequence of that narrow vision was that the solution and procedures not only failed to take into account a scenario where an individual attempting to endanger the aircraft is already in there, but that aspects such as the impossible to override timelock switch within the flight deck could work in favour of the individual wishing to cause harm if that were the case. The requirement for the flight crew needing a working fail-safe aspect on both sides of the door seems to have been overlooked in the haste to reassure the travelling public that "something was being done".

Finally, I feel compelled to note that some of the knee-jerk responses on here regarding mental illness (and draconian measures against those who have suffered from it) are presumptuous and cruel. At this point, the only reference to the FO's mental health refer to an incident of "depression and burnout" which occurred during his training process six years ago. Until more is known on the subject, I reckon the powder should be kept dry.

[Mozella]

Andreas seemed like a very "sensitive" young man, dividing his time between living with his parents and his male room mate. Posing in front of the Golden Gate bridge in SFO. He doesn't seem to fit the image of the typical macho aviator. I wonder what kind of affect this could have on one's career at Lufthansa, or the stress that would cause?

Well, now we know the answer, don't we. It just might eventually be decided that the stress of breaking up with his boyfriend got the best of him and he decided to end it all in the French Alps along with 149 other people. I guess he showed the world that hurting the feelings of a "sensitive young man", as you put it, has its consiquences.

[parabellum]

Reported on the news here in Australia that the co-pilot's initial training was suspended for six months due to "mental illness", (that may be a bit strong, don't know the full story) and was signed back as fit to fly by a psychiatrist.


I emphasise that this is verbatim from a news report, treat with caution.

[gulfairs]

Most professional pilots know to 'never admit any physical failing at all to the Feds"
A very famous pilot(now deceased) admitted on a medical that he had had a dizzy spell. That was it, he never flew again.
The feds missed that he had had a heavy night before the dizzy bit, and or don't we all go a bit dizzy if one stands up too quickly.
NZ CAA is far worse than the Brits CAA, I know this from my own experience.

For my money I have yet to meet a trick cyclist who can positively identify and fix any ailment.
They all administer dope that makes one a zombie until one ceases the medication.
I do not know the pilot population of the jet /jet-prop airlines but one case is too many but most of us are OK most of the time
Haha Haha Haha.

[rmiller774]

Pilots fall asleep often, sometimes into deep sleep. Sometimes in a careless manner knocking things about in so doing. Someone in deep sleep can be very hard to awaken. Why jump up and overcomplicate this crash? It may have happened as a result of an everyday case of fatigue.

[janeczku]

So - If this was an outright suicide, why not just nose dive and plough it into the ground. Why the 8 minutes of pretty much controlled descent? See, that bit is the bit which doesn't make sense. There was no deviation to the left or right, simply straight down.

Airbus is a less than ideal suicide vehicle.

The flight control laws basically don't allow the pilot to do anything other than a "controlled" descent. A kamikaze style nose down descend is not really feasible with this aircraft unless you can make it switch to direct law - for which there is no button :-)
CVR and ADS-B data indicate that the FO configured the plane to descend as fast as possible, yet as controlled as possible so that the various flight control protections (attitude, high speed) would not kick in and interfere with his CFIT maneuver. We also know that he idled the engines when descending, thus taking away engine thrust as a means for the computer to intervene.
From the looks of it, the FO knew what he was doing exactly.

[smiling monkey]

Originally Posted by RiSq
So - If this was an outright suicide, why not just nose dive and plough it into the ground. Why the 8 minutes of pretty much controlled descent? See, that bit is the bit which doesn't make sense. There was no deviation to the left or right, simply straight down.

Don't forget he was only a 600 hour pilot with 100 hours on the bus. He probably needed the autopilot on for everything (automation dependency).

[Dingo63]

Vilters.... creepy. I came across a guy that had the crazy eyes a LONG time ago... it's bizarre how your spidey senses can recognize someone that is clearly in another state of mind. My encounter had same result, but circumstances different of course.

[Feathered]

You fools need to remember that you cannot and will never have regular every-day pilots screened to this level. Your precious low, low ticket prices reflect this. If you want astronauts then be prepared to pay as if you were going to the moon or further.

Nor will the airlines install biometric command-and-control iPads in the loo ceiling, replete with fingerprint and retinal scans that need authentication by each stewardess before the pilot comes out to drop a deuce.

If this comment represents the new breed of Professional Pilots, we are in bad shape.

There are plenty of us that got into aviation because we love flight. Being granted a pilot certificate, whether private or ATP with a bunch of types on the back, is a great privilege.

If more money is required to keep psychologically stable folks in the cockpit, I ask how much money? And are wealthier pilots more psychologically stable or motivated?

There isn't one solution. You need pilot screening at hire time, recurring screening as part of the medical process, keeping 2+ people in the cabin at all times, and possibly a big fire axe. Many of these are already in place.

As for paying for astronauts, I submit that many astronauts earn far less than many professional pilots flying set routes. Chuck Yeager and Neil Armstrong didn't earn much as test pilots. Were they poor pilots?

[dogsridewith]

People fall asleep at the wheel of cars quite often. I think one can go quickly from drowsey to sleep, which may be the deep REM type. I think external stimuli during REM state can be incorporated into the dream rather than causing a wake up. (Knocking on door, loud voices, etc.)


Post by Dingo 63--
"Having Squitter data showing manual input clearly is not, in my opinion, definitive as to state of mind or intent of the F/O. We can deduce, but my question would be, why in the world did the F/O manually input 100, and stay on FP ? I would like a mental health professional to show me the percentage of folks so minded, that would take deliberate action and make no attempt to expedite it, ie, roll it over, nor take advantage of the CVR to explain to his actions to loved ones or those he might have been aggrieved at.

Doesn't add up. And to sit there listening to the pilot banging on the door to get in... human nature is not to just sit there and "know" entry would not be gained in time... and yet he did apparently nothing to expedite departure from controlled flight. Doesn't add up. There is more to this.... just has to be. I don't like speculating and I hate that the media has "solved" it because of the French guy preliminary statement."


edit: This was written before seeing the 3 related posts just above.

[mickjoebill]

To include video recording would require significant modifications - the recorders would need a huge capacity increase, likely needing a redesign, or the installation of an additional recorder. And a cheapo solution like a GoPro would be useless - the recorders are built the way they are, and installed where they are, for a purpose - crashworthiness - and assuring that purpose is NOT chea
As someone who has installed cameras inside building demolitions, inside airframes that were tested and cameras in fire research establishments as well as commissioning and wrangling minor mods I think you are understating the utility of a camera when recording the leadup and events of an accident.

The camera doesnt have to survive the crash, just the compact flash (size of postage stamp) solid state recoding media, which can be enclosed in layered compositite material.
Redundency x4 can suppliment the existing single unit.
Spread the recorders into the parts of the airframe that survive. If landing gear survives stick one in there.
Chaos offers opportunities for survival, maximise the opportunities with multiple units.
24hrs of data can be recorded on a CF card. Measures to make it easier to find can be developed.
I suggest that the recording media of one or two on board phones on this flight, although unprotected could have survived.
For example, the solid state memory in an unprotected camera survived the space shuttle breakup and was found despite the massive size of the debris field.

[Water pilot]

One of the symptoms of hypoxia is euphoria, another is belligerence. If what we have been told to believe is true, we have had two or more airbus pilots go mental within a year. That is pretty odd.

Take this incident a little further back. Why did the captain leave the cockpit? Was it a normal biology break or was he feeling sick? An older person will feel the effects of hypoxia much earlier than a younger one. In this era of personal responsiblity we tend to discount the effects of external agents on our thoughts and behaviors but such things are quite powerful.

I had an involuntary experience with an unknown drug once and one of the effects was that it made me think it would be screamingly funny to drive at high speeds down the wrong side of the road. I had a tiny sliver of rationality left and it got me home safely where I proceeded to stand on my head for awhile.

Is the air supply to the cockpit the same as that to the rest of the aircraft?

[G.Green]

MI185 in 1997 proved a clinically depressed cockpit crew member on duty is extremely risky (NTSB investigation). Fortunately this is an extremely rare event; but as this recent occurence has shown it can still happen if proper safeguards are not enforced.

[Juliet Alpha]

https://www.facebook.com/anxdep

[RYFQB]

A passenger on the jet who was an off-duty pilot entered the cockpit and helped land the plane as several passengers used their belts and plastic handcuffs to hold down Osbon.
Wouldn't this have been possible even if the armed door had been a curtain?

We know that one thing the French prosecutor said cannot be true:

He said the passengers wouldn't have been aware what was happening until the last few moments.

But we also know the captain was trying to knock down the door. Many of the passengers must have been aware of this.
The descent lasted 8 minutes, but do we know when the captain first tried to enter the cockpit? The situation could've escalated quickly from knocking via banging to ramming and end of recording.

[bratschewurst]

MI185 in 1997 proved a clinically depressed cockpit crew member on duty is extremely risky (NTSB investigation). Fortunately this is an extremely rare event; but as this recent occurence has shown it can still happen if proper safeguards are not enforced.Statistics on the incidence of depression suggest that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of cockpit crew with clinical depression who fly every day. The idea that this is "extremely risky" is not supported by the evidence.

What would make flying safer would be if those hundreds, or thousands, of depressed cockpit crew could safely seek treatment for their illness.

[xcitation]

With such low hours I am wondering if this flight was the first time he had been left alone in the cockpit. All short haul and so not many rest breaks in the air. Some would have had check/training capt in the jump.

[AtomKraft]

GermanWings' lawyers must be :mad: themselves by now.

This could cost them billions, or even put an end to the airline.

It's not fair, because clearly this chaps actions were quite unprecedented at least in European aviation.
The lawyers are going to ask what GermanWings training department was thinking about though, when they put this guy in the RHS knowing that he'd been off work for months with depression.

That's going to be hard to answer.

[zkmkw]

Alps crash: Air NZ rushes in cockpit 'rule of two' - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11424236)

Captain David Morgan, Air NZ's chief flight operations and safety officer, said today the policy amendment meant at least two crew members were now required to be present at all times on each aircraft's flight deck.

If one of two pilots operating a flight needed to leave the cockpit for a short time, another crew member would be required to be on the flight deck during the other's absence.


The policy change was "effective immediately", Captain Morgan said, and followed a review of flight deck procedures in response to the European air disaster.

[Squawk 8888]

I'm sure they're in full-out CYA mode right now. My guess is that they'll try to scapegoat the shrinks who cleared him to fly.

[Dingo63]

This could cost them billions, or even put an end to the airline

I was pondering this myself earlier today. That and the idea that this was the first/best opportunity this F/O had. What are the odds.

As I reflect on today and the revelations that have been announced so far.. I am deeply saddened for all of you line pilots and all of us that hold aviation so dear. (29 years, retired ARTCC ATC ) Incomprehensible.

[kaikohe76]

Okay people, here is a question. Would everybody who has posted on this thread already, following the very sad & tragic loss of the A320, care to repost & list their qualifications as to make comments? I appreciate of course, that many who have posted here, are directly involved in Aviation, be it Flight Deck or others & I of course accept & understand your comments, also your reasons for making them known. However it might be interesting to know, just how many of us here have a degree & are experts in psychoogy & matters of the mind & are thus able to explain just what state the First Officer was in & just what he was thinking at the time the aircraft was lost.
A tragic & very sad time of course for a all those concerned, but let's make sure we have all the facts to hand before taking to our key boards, surely there is much more information & data still to surface yet.

[KatSLF]

GermanWings' lawyers must be :mad: themselves by now.

This could cost them billions, or even put an end to the airline.

It's not fair, because clearly this chaps actions were quite unprecedented at least in European aviation.
The lawyers are going to ask what GermanWings training department was thinking about though, when they put this guy in the RHS knowing that he'd been off work for months with depression.

And what if that was a single episode of acute depression, resulting from something like a child (his, or a young sibling) dying under terrible circumstances? or some other similar "normal" cause for deep depression?

There is no straight line between chronic depression and suicide. Rather the contrary. There are millions of people walking around with chronic depression, some of them untreated, who never even consider suicide. Meanwhile perfectly non-depressed first responders may commit suicide after dealing with some major traumatic event, like a massacre or fatal train smash etc. and disaster survivors may kill themselves from "survivor guilt".

[SAMPUBLIUS]

Why not make a short summary and simply repost it from time to time since many do not bother to read the whole xxx posts?

Sort of like this- but by someone more qualified than this oldie

1) Copilot deliberately flew plane into CFIT by dialing in 100 foot altitude into computer and ? reducing thrust. Plane automatically flew into mountain.

2) Copilot deliberately locked pilot out by more than one action, not accidental ,pushing lock switch more than once

3) Copilot breathing sounded normal until end

4) Pilot tried to open door, tried to communicate with copilot, was unsuccessful.

5) Questions as to WHY copilot did this remain.

6) Absent FDR, no mechanical or structural failures are apparent.

7) All else is uninformed speculation



8 ) passengers were unaware until very last seconds.

[Tom Bangla]

Rudolf, post 1729:

In three and a half lines, you've encapsulated the implied integrity that should always be at the core of the profession.

[Squawk 8888]

There are millions of people walking around with chronic depression, some of them untreated, who never even consider suicide.

Excellent point. I've always thought that the biggest risk of flying with chronic depression would be getting sloppy with the procedures.

[thcrozier]

Mr. Spohr made a statement in German (I think) which has been translated in the English media as:

“This is the worst possible time, the worst possible moment, the darkest chapter in the history in our airline,” Spohr said. “And yet we have full confidence in our pilots, so this is totally incomprehensible.”

That sounds kind of dumb, like he cares more about his company than the victims. Maybe it's a correct literal translation, but I somehow think his meaning is not accurately expressed.

[porterhouse]

. That sounds kind of dumb, like he cares more about his company than the victims
Your own interpretation, I don't see it that way.

[mcdude]

Quote:
Captain David Morgan, Air NZ's chief flight operations and safety officer, said today the policy amendment meant at least two crew members were now required to be present at all times on each aircraft's flight deck.


Air NZ should have introduced this after last years little incident...

Incident: ANZ B772 enroute on May 21st 2014, first officer locked out of cockpit (http://avherald.com/h?article=476eba0f)

[Capn Bloggs]

Airline managements should avoid political correctness tip-toeing around the problem and ensure new recruits to the cockpit are warned during their induction classes to expect they will occasionally experience personality clashes with other crew members. Just as importantly, recruits should be educated how to deal with the problem rather than be left to their own devices without any help. Prevention is often better than cure
The opposite equally applies; there are new FOs who need to be told in no-uncertain terms their position in life, because if they don't pull their heads in and learn how to fit into a cockpit environment as an FO, they will become even worse when they get to the left seat.

[DozyWannabe]

@thcrozier:
The two statements seem to be taken out of context. Don't read too much into it.

[Passagiata]

Much talk of this man experiencing suicidal depression. If that had been the case, he would have jumped off a cliff. This was mass murder, not suicide. He may not have been depressed at all.

[glofish]

"Captain" Bloggs

You're fitting in well with the common tenor in aviation:
Take it or leave it.
It's not only the skippers mood than can be dull, it's not only the FOs arrogance of feeling superior that disturbs CRM, please start putting the focus on management as well.
The situation of many copilots in today's aviation world is dismal. They start with at least 100k debt and are confronted with below par salaries for the first years (i don't even want to speak about p2f) They start with limited career hopes and with an ever lowering punitive environment that tells them on a daily base to shut up and be happy or leave. There are supposedly a hundred candidates just waiting to take his place. Add to that the fatiguing rosters and the sheer stupidity of daily checking, screening, hurrying and threatening from all sides that it might take that little bit less to fall into some sort of tunnel vision and depression that seems to leave no way forward.

Before blaming pilots again and again for their destiny, we might involve the airline mangers and regulators to take a deep breath and to look at the actual situation for our young colleagues. The press is invited too.

But then this might increase the price of a ticket by a few cents and reduce the profit of the airline by a nickel, so it won't happen.

Blaming pilots is easier and cheaper. :yuk:

[Severe Clear]

Rudolph. "I am a commercial pilot and there is a bond between myself, my crew and my passengers. That is that we as a profession transport our charges safely from A to B, any professional aviator that doesn't understand the gravitas of this statement is in the wrong job. I really don't know whether to cry today or vow to continue to do my job to the best of my ability, probably both to be honest. This act is so far from anything I could have expected that it has completely thrown me, and I DO truly mean knocked me for six."

If there is a more classic post of a "pilot" please correct me. I shall be forever thankful to Rudolph for his posting today in this gut binding moment in our human history.

[vapilot2004]

Time for an alternative and independent mental health service for crews?........ There has to be a mechanism provided that gives individuals the potential for greater protection in the industry through what could be caused by a run of bad luck.

Could someone from the industry please tell us if there are any consequences for your medical if you ask for help because you feel severly depressed?


It is truly remarkable that we have such elaborate schemes for maintenance and the verification of our technical skills, but no system such as supervision to help us with the psychological challenges of our work and lives.

All of you gents are on to what this conversation should be focused on - not reinforced cockpit doors, nor minimum crew numbers on the flight deck during lav breaks. It is the giant elephant in the room and he's not going away anytime soon.

I am referring to mental health issues, anti-depressant treatments and substance abuse including alcoholism (the only legal one). Once you've admitted to any of these conditions and seek out treatment, you are guaranteed, at least in the US, of losing your job. You might get your 1st Class Medical back eventually, but no airline will hire you.

It is a catch-22. Need help, fine, we might even help you pay for it, but you're done flying for a living, buddy. It's a strange and dysfunctional policy led by liability concerns aka money.

As mentioned by a previous poster, even your personal LOL insurance has specific clauses preventing payout in cases of mental health disorders. Why? Again, money, of course. Insurers are in business to make money. I suppose a policy without such a clause might be underwritten (ALPA) but the cost would likely be enormous compared to any payout down the road.

[thcrozier]

Glofish,

I agree, the glory days are over, and that's a cryin' shame for the younger generation joining the industry. Most of them probably have fond memories of being invited to the flight deck and looking at all those dial and switches, which the superhero flight crew could somehow understand.

The management practices required to stay in business these days leave the pilots as simple commodities.

[vapilot2004]

As for the annual psych, some companies would love this at it would be a great way to get rid of unwanted pilots.


Psych tests are helpful but unfortunately not accurate enough to be usefully predictive.

Furthermore, the predictive power of psychology seems to be limited, as ever so often serial killers or molesters are released as "healed and no further danger to society" only to prove their shrinks wrong.

The only system that has worked fairly well, although not 100%, but close, is screening and monitoring of US military pilots. These guys are under constant scrutiny and we've had very few rogue pilots, the most recent I am aware of being in 1997 when a guy flew an armed A-10 around the desert southwest before (apparently) intentionally crashing with just minutes of fuel left.

[FlightCosting]

Glofish,

I agree, the glory days are over, and that's a cryin' shame for the younger generation joining the industry. Most of them probably have fond memories of being invited to the flight deck and looking at all those dial and switches, which the superhero flight crew could somehow understand.

The management practices required to stay in business these days leave the pilots as simple commodities.

When I started off in this business all those years ago, Airlines were run by aviators who knew and cared about the business. Today it is the bean counters and financiers who are in control.