Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

[macdo]

You are quite right. But up to 10 years ago LH was one of the few that did this.
Psychometric testing is now very commonplace in pilot selection.

[Lost in Saigon]

He would have had to proactively denied the Captain's access. If he was incapacitated, this thread would not exist.

Yes, if he was incapacitated he would not have selected a lower attitude and he would not gone to the trouble of locking out the emergency entry code.

Whether it was a suicide or terrorist act, (or both) it surely was an intentional act.

[ICEHOUSES]

LH ceo just now at press conference answering question from journalist about policy of LH not having policy of cabin crew taking seat in flight deck when one goes on toilet break, explained that other partner airlines have no such policy as is LH policy, not sure how this is true as my previous airline this was mandatory (uk airline) not sure about other European airlines?

[fireflybob]

The breathing being audible on a hot mic seems impossible in a very noisy cockpit, unless of course it is insulated by the oxygen mask.

I believe the CVR records a number of different channels. One is an open mike on the flight deck (overhead panel?) and the mike inputs to all crew positions whether or not the intercom is in use and/or that crew position is transmitting.

Early CVRs only had an open mike on the flight deck and I believe it was the British who pioneered the hot mike system.

So in conclusion it's quite possible to hear breathing from an individual crew position.

[soupisgoodfood]

If you really have a pilot that is focused on a suicide/mass murder plot, a two person flight deck rule doesn't seem like much of a hurdle. If you are planning to kill everyone anyway, why not just start off by bludgeoning/strangling/stabbing/slip a ruffie/etc. the pilot next to you and then the two person rule is bypassed. If the pilot looks to be too hard to handle, maybe the replacement FA would be easier.

I don't think you understand the possible thought processes of people in these tragic situations. If it was suicide, but wasn't terrorism related or to make a point, he may have simply done it on a whim. The opportunity presented itself and he just went along with it to see what would happen. Just having another person sitting there could easily have been enough to prevent the tragedy, even if he thought he could over-power them in a fight.

It's too early to say, though. The point is, you're applying a rational thought processes to a situation isn't rational.

[offa]

Response to macdo (previous page)
Sorry - not true .... I did psychometric tests nearly 50 years ago before initial training and I have done at least 4 other series of tests since then.

[fastjet45]

Natstrackalpha
No, I think there was somebody else on the flight deck who knew nothing about aeroplanes and flying and who thinks that to descend quickly you just push the stick forward.


Think about what you have just said, if someone other than crew entered the cockpit do you think the other crew member would be so quite on the CVR tape !!!! and if this person knew nothing about aeroplanes and flying but knew enough about how to lock the door !!!

[offa]

So in conclusion it's quite possible to hear breathing from an individual crew position.
Airbus uses "live" mike anyway?

[PassengerDan]

Yes, if he was incapacitated he would not have selected a lower attitude and he would not gone to the trouble of locking out the emergency entry code.

Whether it was a suicide or terrorist act, (or both) it surely was an intentional act.

The Lufthansa CEO also said that the flying of 149 other persons to their death is not what he would term a suicide.

[Konrad_Huebstedt]

LH CEO just confirmed that the F/O has a break for a couple of month during his formation due to unspecified medical reasons.

[Sheridb]

That someone in such a position could cold bloodedly crash an aircraft in such circumstances beggars belief. He must have been seriously disturbed, although what anyone can do to stop such things is difficult to say, visiting the FD security is a must.

[Kerosene]

Originally byJamesT73J
I recall reading in 'Fulcrum' Alexander Zuyev made much of the borderline obsessive medical monitoring of pilots in Soviet times, that the flight surgeon like any good doctor had their finger on the pulse of what was going on with their people. The point of the writing was to demonstrate what Zuyev felt was an unfair myth about physical health of Russian crews, in particular alcohol abuse, but the prominence of friendly medical personnel in pilot's lives was notable.

There was also a documentary about Aeroflot on telly in the 90s that showed similar. It seemed as rigourous as Western standards, just very frequent.

Whatever comes next, I hope it's not more knee jerking.


The supervision I was talking about would not at all resemble the system they had employed in the Soviet Union, and later in Russia.

It's true they always checked crews for medical fitness prior to flights, but in general this system was not confidential but authoritarian.

To this day, in Russia when you as PIC decide to return to gate to examine a technical glitch on ground rather than taking it to the air, you'll be exposed to hours of interrogation, documents checking and so on. Obviously such procedures will not encourage crews to exercise their good judgement - I imagine it would come to the same with physical/mental health issues in an authoritarian system.

An effective supervision system in aviation would have to be non-punitive and confidential. Data and trends would need to presented to management in de-personalized form (e.g. trend of pilots experiencing financial stresses affecting their ability to perform their duties, or others).

[FIRESYSOK]

Why all the talk of live video feeds, etc. What would have changed? You would have gotten your tabloid news fix a bit quicker. That is all.

[ILS 119.5]

Talking about mental illness, if I recall a captain of a far eastern airline tried to crash his aircraft into the sea during take off into the sea at Kai tak many years ago, turned out that he had a series of mental problems

[c53204]

Mr Lubitz's (the FO) training had been interrupted briefly six years ago but was resumed after "the suitability of the candidate was re-established"

I guess some information will remain in the private domain.

[justforfun]

It can and it is depending on the airline.

[PassengerDan]

Mr Lubitz's (the FO) training had been interrupted briefly six years ago but was resumed after "the suitability of the candidate was re-established"

I guess some information will remain in the private domain.

The CEO did mention that he had passed every test - including many psychological tests.

[er340790]

Sadly, the simple truth is: There is no test for sanity.

And even if there were, there is no telling at what point apparently perfectly sane people might suddenly 'snap'. We are humans and subject to the vagaries of life: relationship pressures and breakdowns, financial troubles, petty issues that can get magnified out of all proportion: the list is literally endless.

Perhaps, though, there is more room for an increased focus on what used to be termed in military and space quarters as 'the right stuff'.

Either way, the pressures for a short term 'fix' will be immense. It would not surprise me to see 1,500-hr minimums for First Officers, cockpit video cameras and further mandated changes to access procedures all coming in on the back of this.

[Lizz]

Natstrackalpha what if this was his only real way to go, couldn't do it any other way (slim chance I know) but if so maybe he thought briefly about the 143 people behind him and didn't want their final moments to be a full on dive.

I apologise if that adds nothing constructive or logical.

The one thing I do know about suicide (attempts) is that you generally don't think about the people you're going to affect by what you're doing. You have one goal and one goal only.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Years ago when I started commercial flying a large number of Captains and First Officers were ex-military.

I never had any reason to consider these individuals as anything other than stable, competent and well-trained - often in combat.

These days pilots are hired who's background and mental state are largely unknown irrespective of the degree and quality of training they have received.

There have been mutterings about the rationale of putting 200 hour cadets into the right hand seat, now it seems there are mutterings about their mental state.

How this can be reconciled is an issue of considerable importance - not least because the travelling public are becoming concerned (I know this because I've been told this by friends and colleagues who are 'the travelling public').

Experience and competence are tangibles that, as far as the average passenger is concerned, are of little consequence as it is assumed a pilot wouldn't be flying unless s/he was judged to be competent by the airline and the authorities.

Mental state is an intangible which no matter how good the training and testing, experience or qualifications are can never be totally assessed.

This issue is far more likely to undermine the confidence of the public in these troubled times than the fact a pilot may have limited experience.

[Pace]

From reports from his flying club where he had been known for years he was described as happy jovial and chatty guy dedicated to flying having started in gliding !
The conversation up to the point of the Captain leaving the cockpit was relaxed and normal hardly a nervous reserved personality about to remove himself and 150 others from the Face of the planet
How could anyone be alerted to a personality like that ? Or are things still not as they appear to be ?
There is NO evidence that the door was locked from the inside only that the Captain could not gain access which doesn't mean the same thing
Something is still not adding up right

[IFPS man]

Isn't the suicide suggestion conjecture? Was it not possible that the F/O was starting to have some massive medical event just before the captain left the flight deck and which subsequently developed into him becoming unconscious. iF any post mortem examination is possible, could that be determined?

[AndyJS]

From the Guardian's live blog: "Unlike in the US, European regulations do not provide for two people to be in the cockpit at all times, Spohr said. Lufthansa does not voluntarily implement such a protocol, and Spohr said that he is not aware of any of the company’s competitors that have such a procedure."


http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/mar/26/germanwings-plane-crash-investigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525

[adamlouis]

Just FYI, regarding the discussion about having 2 persons in the cockpit at all time, Norwegian Air shuttle just announced that from now on all flights will be obligated to have 2 persons in the cockpit at all time.
This meaning the Cabin crew need to step in if any of the pilots leave the cockpit.

[slfie]

Also from the Guardian:

"Spohr said that it appears the captain punched in the emergency number into the cockpit door to gain entry, but the co-pilot deployed the five-minute over-ride."

All of which must have been determined from the CVR.

[slats11]

Unfortunately people quickly adapt to mitigate new security measures.

Hijacking / terrorism used to be about getting a gun (or bomb) onto a plane. So we Increased airport security and made that increasingly difficult.

9/11 was about getting a few people with some flying skills onto the plane. So we fitted toughened doors prevent unauthorised access.

The threat now is the mindset and ideology of the pilot sitting forward of these toughened doors. After MH370 and this latest incident, that threat is going to require some thought.

[FIRESYSOK]

Changing cockpit security procedures immediately looks bad. Other airlines will change soon but the airline in question may wait as to not appear they had a faulty SOP.

[Wirbelsturm]

As SLF can I ask the question, why can't the data from the FDR and CVR be transmitted continuosly to a ground base, providing immediate access to vital information?.

Simple answer: Cost.

You want your tickets as cheap as possible making flying (per mile) one of the cheapest forms of transport on the planet. You have to accept that cost is the primary driver.

You want more? Pay more for the ticket.

[AirResearcher]

..I am somewhat surprised & dismayed at the press failing to mention the new Germanwings T&Cs under 'negotiation' and recent strikes. Plenty of other speculation but as several other here have quite rightly mentioned, it's not impossible that a potential 40% pay cut, together with the huge financial demands of getting a licence, pay2fly contracts and their associated changes in work patterns etc MAY....have been a contributing factor. I don't know if this applies to the FO in question, so I am just suggesting its worth looking at and advising the public if it is relevant.

[Guido3]

In the press conference with Lufthansa/Germanwing there was a journalist from the Tagesschau (most important daily news show at primetime on German public-service TV). The journalist told Spohr (Lufthansa CEO), that they have informations, that there was already an incident with the co-pilot on the outboud flight. Spohr said that he has no informations about this.

And there was an interruption for many months in the training of the co-pilot. Spohr gave no detailed explanation because of medical confidentiality. Which means there are already some medical (and probably psychological) problems on record for the co-pilot.

[autothrottle]

Captain Eric Moody just on BBC news. At one point I had respect for him as a fellow aviator with a distinguished career.

However today he sat there and said how he personally couldn't sit and watch someone take control of the aircraft. He then remarked how ,on 9/11, he couldn't believe the pilots would sit there and allow someone to fly the aircraft into buildings.

Those comments are abhorrent and ignorant.

I hope we never see him on tv ever again.:mad:

[toffeez]

I think some of you need reminding that what you heard today was just an input to an investigation, not the conclusion of one.

[ILS27LEFT]

AFP

Posted at12:24

"Brice Robin said the responses of the co-pilot, named as Andreas Lubitz, 28, were initially courteous but became "curt" when the captain began to give a mid-flight briefing, about the planned landing of the Germanwings flight. The plane's eventual crash in the French alps killed 150 people". Scary stuff.
I don't see how the FO would concidentally become ill when Cpt goes to toilette. It sounds like a deliberate act, something impossible to predict. Unusual for a suicidal "non-ISIS" person to take so many lives with him. Very complicated incident. Hopefully there is somebody who knows more, especially family and friends. He was clearly mentally impaired. Prosecutor must know more to exclude officially any illness, this was deliberate but why? We will soon find out exact reason.

[AmuDarya]

Not a pilot but all this seems highly irregular for an aircraft disaster investigation.

1. Needless reveal by Prosecutor (not an aviation professional or regulator) of screams heard on CVR within 48 hours even as relatives are still in deep shock.
2. How could the Prosecutor possibly know of intent or voluntary action at this early stage?
3. What investigative purpose or public purpose is served by revealing information from the CVR before a careful audio analysis, properly synced to flight data is complete? This is not an overnight process.
4. Conversely, strong statements by a person in a position of supervision over an investigation may 'set' minds and hinder the careful unearthing of alternative explanations and chain of events.
5. In any case, I understand that air accident investigations in France have only recently been assigned to regional prosecutors a few months ago as a result of administrative and legal changes.
It's quite possible the gent is unacquainted with the kind of painstaking, fact based, non-judgmental, non-accusatory mindset that I understand is needed for successful, quality air accident investigatory work.

[Dr747]

IFPS man Isn't the suicide suggestion conjecture? Was it not possible that the F/O was starting to have some massive medical event just before the captain left the flight deck and which subsequently developed into him becoming unconscious. iF any post mortem examination is possible, could that be determined?

Answer to your PM question and toxicology is simply yes but only if you have enough tissue available to analyse. Depends upon how much blood is still present in tissues and the exposure to air/temp etc. There is a time limit to this if you are questioning things like carbon mono oxide etc. Hypoxia can not be determine in these cases unless a fully body ( or very large chunks of it) can be found.
(sorry if some of you find it too gory, please feel free to delete it if Mods thing that it is too gory for non medics)

[Triskel]

IFPS man - I agree with your suggestion, quite possible.
Also, I remember attending a talk a couple of years ago by a guy representing a major manufacturer (unfortunately can't remember) who described a safety system using a GPS-referenced global terrain map, detailed right down to building level, which would prevent an a/c being flown into any obstacle (in questions he said it could even have prevented the 9/11 scenario). Wish I could remember the company and name of the system - does anyone else know about this?

[XB70_Valkyrie]

I don't think a medical event accounts for the loss of altitude, and also potentially overriding the door lock control.

"..... and activated the button that commands the loss of altitude," the prosecutor, Brice Robin, said.

He said it appeared that the intention of the co-pilot, identified as Andreas Lubitz, had been "to destroy the aircraft." He said that the voice recorder showed that the co-pilot had been breathing until before the moment of impact, suggesting that he was conscious and deliberate in killing 144 passengers and five other crew members in the French Alps on Tuesday.

The inquiry had shown that the crash was intentional, Mr. Robin said, and he was considering changing his investigation from involuntary manslaughter to voluntary manslaughter."

Prosecutor: Co-pilot, alone at helm of Germanwings, began descent manually, 'intentionally' (http://www.cnbc.com/id/102537138)

[Nose Wheel Shimmy]

The 320 has a control stick so slumping forward would not affect it. The door lock switch is on the left rear of the centre pedestal so no, could not accidentally be operated. It's also gated, needs to be lifted to operate. Incapacitation of the pilot inside would not stop the locked-out pilot gaining entry. Also incapacition would not affect the flight profile. The aircraft would continue it's flight plan. The pilot inside has selected either VS or FPA to put it in a descent.
An early solution to these occupancies would be to bring back the flight engineer.

[PassengerDan]

Lufthansa CEO said that the overriding of the entry code from within the cockpit led to a 5 minute block on the next attempt. If the code was being entered every 5 minutes, it would appear very unlikely that the first officer in the cockpit was incapacitated.

[VinRouge]

What, and repeatedly block the entry of the other crew members to the cabin by making a switch selection? Whilst unconscious?

[Cagedh]

Not a pilot but all this seems highly irregular for an aircraft disaster investigation.

1. Needless reveal by Prosecutor (not an aviation professional or regulator) of screams heard on CVR within 48 hours even as relatives are still in deep shock.
2. How could the Prosecutor possibly know of intent or voluntary action at this early stage?
3. What investigative purpose or public purpose is served by revealing information from the CVR before a careful audio analysis, properly synced to flight data is complete? This is not an overnight process.
4. Conversely, strong statements by a person in a position of supervision over an investigation may 'set' minds and hinder the careful unearthing of alternative explanations and chain of events.
5. In any case, I understand that air accident investigations in France have only recently been assigned to regional prosecutors a few months ago as a result of administrative and legal changes.
It's quite possible the gent is unacquainted with the kind of painstaking, fact based, non-judgmental, non-accusatory mindset that I understand is needed for successful, quality air accident investigatory work.

After somebody leaked the information to the New York Times, who published it this morning, there was nothing else that could be done by the BEA then bringing it out.

[XB70_Valkyrie]

> If the co-pilot is slumped forward, is it not possible that his arm, ipad, checklist or whatever gets pushed onto the door locking button which is right next to him? Surely that is possible.

Given the A320 cockpit layout, very unlikely. Also doesn't account for the descent. (A/P switch and alt controls are up on panel and sidestick is to the side)

Some airlines have iPad holders (I know QF does for example). On the A320 there is a pull out table right in front of you, I would think that would be a place to rest your iPad.

The simplest answer is probably right, this was a deliberate act. It is the only credible answer that can account for the timing, the lockout of the captain, and the descent.

[wheelsright]

4. Conversely, strong statements by a person in a position of supervision over an investigation may 'set' minds and hinder the careful unearthing of alternative explanations and chain of events.

Prosecutor's statements do seem to be unnecessarily conclusive at this stage... surely the circumstances of the descent or the prevention of entry to FD require further investigation and facts to properly establish "intention".

If there is other conclusive evidence or facts to support the allegation of intent there would appear little reason to conceal them. Surely any statement should include the reasons for such a conclusion. I do not see that the published facts establish any more than a strong likelihood at this stage; there still remain other possibilities.

[weebobby]

people going on about alternative theories - seriously ???

If they are saying that
a)the pilot was being kept out of the cockpit by manual controls inside the cockpit
b ) the copilot was inputting manually the controls multiple times to guide the plane down and
c) heard breathing

clearly the co pilot crashed the plane intentionally

I did like when the CEO of LH said something along the lines of " when you fly a plane into a mountain with 150 pax it isnt suicide, it is another word...... "

[epericolososporgersi]

@RussellBrown

He was not "due to a 40% wage cut".

The German (weekly) Newspaper "DIE ZEIT" had an online - article today. Lufthansa plans to use their daughter "Eurowings" instead of "Germanwings" in the near future. One reason is, that Eurowings has 40% lower wages.

Absturz stellt Lufthansa-Konzept in Frage | ZEIT ONLINE (http://www.zeit.de/mobilitaet/2015-03/lufthansa-germanwings-konzernumbau-eurowings)

(sorry - in German)

This does not mean, that Lufthansa or Germanwings Crew - Members will have a wage cut. Lufthansa planned not to use the brand "Germanwings" anymore in the future. And they planned to stop selling "Germanwings" tickets from October.

But Lufthansa didn´t plan to liquidate "Germanwings". The plan was (is?) to use the Germanwings planes with their Crews in a form of wetlease.

[Four Turbo]

I saw somewhere that the door would have automatically unlocked in the case of an explosive decompression. Is this so? (I'm a truckie - so no SLF!)

[Flightmech]

I don't get the people mentioning about reduction in T&Cs etc as a possible reason for doing this. It may put a huge financial strain on his life, who knows, but it is no excuse to take 149 innocent souls with you and leave a permanent wake of despair with his family and friends for their lifetimes. Harsh but there are other ways of doing it solo.
Post 9/11 procedures have brought along their own unique set of problems and I am still amazed how the FFPO program got passed when you look at the tragic consequences of the Germanwings event.

[RoyHudd]

Sadly there have already been documented a number of pilot suicides in the air which have taken the lives of many passengers. This is the first Western one that I am aware of. Equally there have been a number of cases of both young and middle-aged pilots taking their own lives on their own, either on the ground or airborne and solo. In an average population, suicide does happen regularly. It is inevitable that the same risk applies to the pilot profession.

Calm thinking is needed following this relatively rare episode. There is no quick solution to this awful possibility if one wants to maintain a secure flight deck from terrorists. Access to disturbed pilots and cabin staff is always there, locked door or otherwise. But a repeat of 9/11 is waiting to happen if vigilance is relaxed on flight deck access. That was far worse in absolute numbers and remains so.

Sad business.

[weebobby]

A mother of a schoolmate of co-pilot Andreas Lubitz told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung he had told her daughter that he had taken a break from his pilot training because he was suffering from depression.

"Apparently he had a burnout, he was in depression," the woman, whom the paper did not name.

She said her daughter had seen him again just before Christmas and that he had appeared normal. The mother of his schoolmate said he was a "lovely boy". "He had a good family background," she told the paper.

[SloppyJoe]

Question about locking out the keypad. If the FO locked out the keypad prior to the CN entering the code I believe that there would be no audible entry alert if a code is then entered, how do they know the CN did not try the emergency access code? Would the keypad beeps when entering the code be heard on the CVR or is that also disabled when the switch is moved to lock? I am pretty sure it is not a parameter on the FDR so they can't be sure no attempt was made by emergency access code.

Am I wrong about the buzzer and keypad being disabled?

[Fareastdriver]

Suicidal Arab terrorists don't have to fight into the cockpit and kill themselves and 150 passengers any more.

Legislation is doing it for them.

[silvertate]

Prosecutor's statements do seem to be unnecessarily conclusive at this stage... surely the circumstances of the descent or the prevention of entry to FD require further investigation and facts to properly establish "intention".



The prosecutor may be in possession of more information than we have. Something may have been said on the CVR which betrayed intent.

[dazdaz1]

In these circumstances (suicide descent) what could a c/c member on the f/d do? He/she would not know how to reverse the actions of the co-pilot.

[weebobby]

b) in the initial press conference today it was stated he had to click some button? multiple times during descent (sorry i am no pilot ) which could only be manually inputed

c) it was also stated they could hear normal breathing on the recorders all the way through to the end

[Flightmech]

At least he didn't pull the CVR/FDR C/Bs so the cause was quickly determined. Maybe that was a deliberate act too...........

[XB70_Valkyrie]

Not a pilot but all this seems highly irregular for an aircraft disaster investigation.

1. Needless reveal by Prosecutor (not an aviation professional or regulator) of screams heard on CVR within 48 hours even as relatives are still in deep shock.
2. How could the Prosecutor possibly know of intent or voluntary action at this early stage?
3. What investigative purpose or public purpose is served by revealing information from the CVR before a careful audio analysis, properly synced to flight data is complete? This is not an overnight process.
4. Conversely, strong statements by a person in a position of supervision over an investigation may 'set' minds and hinder the careful unearthing of alternative explanations and chain of events.
5. In any case, I understand that air accident investigations in France have only recently been assigned to regional prosecutors a few months ago as a result of administrative and legal changes.
It's quite possible the gent is unacquainted with the kind of painstaking, fact based, non-judgmental, non-accusatory mindset that I understand is needed for successful, quality air accident investigatory work.

In the US, aircraft crashes are considered federal crime scenes and under the jurisdiction of the FBI until criminal acts are ruled out. I was working at an aircraft crash scene with fatalities and quite surprised to see the FBI there from very early on.

The prosecutors are part of an investigative process which is run differently than a safety board inquiry. To make a statement based on what is known at this moment is not unheard of in criminal cases. Typical statements to the media will be, here is what we know now and here is what we are doing next.

Only in cases where the information must be withheld to help cross check against statements will they not release what they know. There is typically a duty to tell as much as they reasonably can to the public without delay. Releasing what they know about what is on the CVR is unlikely to change someone else's statement about the incident.

[fflyingdog]

i don't know the 320 but are CVR and FDR CB's accessible to the crew ?

[macdo]

Answer to your query


LOCK position :
Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ; emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are #inhibited# for a preselected time (5 to 20 min).

This may explain why the cvr seemed to indicate that the Capt did not use the emergency access code. Since it could only be confirmed by a recording of the beeps of the keyboard or the buzzer going off in the flight deck. If they were inhibited, no noise was created.

[henra]

In these circumstances (suicide descent) what could a c/c member on the f/d do? He/she would not know how to reverse the actions of the co-pilot.

Unlock the door for the Captain to enter the FD?

[wheelsright]

The prosecutor may be in possession of more information than we have. Something may have been said on the CVR which betrayed intent.


Precisely my thought. But why condemn the PF on secret facts that could have easily been provided along with the statement. Let's face it, the statement was highly prejudicial already... surely some supporting facts would have helped out a little and mitigated the speculation that the statement was premature.

As a matter of law, concluding that a pilot is a murderer is wrong, but disclosing facts that strongly suggested that the pilot is a murderer is perfectly legitimate. It is for the courts to make these kinds of conclusions... preferably after a trial.

[Deep and fast]

If the co pilot dos deliberately crash the aircraft through depression then I feel sorry for him as well as the poor souls behind him. I Witnessed someone with depression and I would describe them as numb and I could realistically see someone descending the aircraft breathing normally almost acting in third person.

With airline management known for being some of the most ruthless out there how many others are running close to breaking point?

Management are disrespectful, constantly looking to cut terms and conditions and placing finacial pressures on new joiners that are incompatible to the post undertaken.

The regulators are indifferent and the politicians won't touch anything until it gives them bad press.

And all the while the foxes are in charge of the turkey farm!

[spycatcher]

yesterday when they were showing graphs of the descent, 3000ft/min I think, they didn't say there was anything unusual about that rate of descent but today they are calling it a "steep descent"

is this a steep descent, would the pax feel it

[libowski]

i'm not a pilot, but i am curious if cellphones might have survived the impact without damage.

sadly, there were many high school aged kids aboard. i wouldn't be surprised if some of them videoed the pilot banging on the door. if cell phones are possibly intact after impact, they might provide additional intelligence.

[Methersgate]

There is a tendency to over-regulate by prescribing hardware. This is actually a "political" issue, driven by human nature, rather than a technical one.

Those locked doors have now killed more people than they have saved.

In the "parallel universe" of merchant shipping we had the same problem with "release on load lifeboat hooks" - which killed more people than they saved - and we have just seen the regulations changed again.

Time for another cool, calm, look at those doors.

[Halfnut]

Japan Airlines 350 - 02/09/82

Silk Air 185 - 12/19/97

Egypt Air 990 - 10/31/99

Mozambique 470 - 11/29/13

Malaysia 370 - 03/08/14

German Wings 9525 - 03/24/15

[weebobby]

Matthias Gebauer, Der Spiegel magazine's online chief correspondent, has tweeted that co-pilot Andreas Lubitz may have suffered from depression or burnout.

He says he spoke to his neighbours and friends who said he was struck by depression during the several months he took out of his pilot training in 2009.

[MG23]

You want more? Pay more for the ticket.

Sadly, we don't really get that choice. Pretty much every airline is now going the 'cut costs at any cost' route, and they don't offer a 'pay $100 extra to fly on a plane with three of our most experienced pilots in the cockpit' option.

[Cyberhacker]

The A320 has a door keypad system to get into the cockpit, the only way the code would not allow access to the cabin would be a manual override from inside the cockpit

Or he is entering the wrong code

[Deep and fast]

A vulnerable guy..pissed off with massive loans to get where he was..a long climb up the ladder.. A management culture based on LCC crap..a roster that pushed 100 hrs/month..regular early kick offs..no prospect of command...salary paying zip..profit share?...wtf..!working under the perceived umbrella of Lufthansa competence...welcome to the mental Swiss cheese..650 hours ..Total!!!! Give me a break..!

Well to be fair that just about sums it up! Don't worry about fixing the door, fix the industry.
Sky news BBC etc should actually talk about this rather thN have a guest from a company providing an initio students to the industry talking drivel!

[SauvignonBlanc]

Those locked doors have now killed more people than they have saved.

How can we ever know how many lives have potentially been saved??

[Feathered]

So we have a European built aircraft operated by a European Company , Flying between two European Countries. The investigation is being carried out by European Agencies yet for some reason Americans tell us almost immediately that there is no terrorist connection and now a Senior American Military official is allegedly leaking information the the NYT about information gleaned from the CVR. Not comfortable with how this is playing out.


CNN is reporting that the Government of France has formally requested the American Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to assist with the Germanwings investigation.

[ShotOne]

Methersgate, well said! The bulletproof doors were imposed on the industry as a knee jerk to one catastrophic event. While they solved one issue they created another. Let's resist the temptation for another knee jerk response to this awful situation.

[FIRESYSOK]

Apparently they have the MCP settings from the Mode S- extended squitter (ES). Wow.

[acpm]

a 28yr old with 600TT and 100 A320SIC...has no business being in the cockpit of the germanwings 320...when I got to his position at a US airline I had well over 10,000 hours and pushing 40+. Heard ryanair had a 18yr old f/o...ladies and gentlemen we need mature, experienced, stable people flying this type of aircraft PERIOD.

[AirResearcher]

deep-and-fast If things are as they currently appear to be based on what's being reported about the FOs alleged depression and whether this is the result of working conditions and finances related to becoming a commercial pilot , I would hope that EASA would also be interviewed as they have categorically denied in the past that there are any negative safety implications whatsoever with LCC business models.

[Cyberhacker]

CNN is reporting that the Government of France has formally requested the American Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to assist with the Germanwings investigation.

Why on earth would a German airline, flying a European aircraft from Spain, that crashed in France, ask for the FBI to be involved?

[dazdaz1]

Henra..."Unlock the door for the Captain to enter the FD?"

I would imagine after inputs are entered and the a/c is descending the co-pilot would have time to incapacitate a c/c member, or maybe not, the security (denial of entry button/switch as posted previously) would not allow the c/c member to open the f/d door.

[blind pew]

My best mate was killed in Papa India - two days before an all out strike.
We were half trained because of a work to rule and held illegal licences.

The atmosphere was terrible, not only for us second officers but also for a few captains who tried to stand up to management.

Some were sacked, others were bullied.

The inquiry was a joke but not unlike those held by the British Empire, before or since, where corporate amnesia was a factor.

The industrial action was suspended....we still had rubbish terms and conditions...and we kept crashing aircraft.

The bean counters never learn as they don't have to take the risk.

[mach79]

"The pilots have been the focus of the investigation from the outset, yet Germanwings' parent company Lufthansa refused for 48 hours to release their identities, not even their age or nationalities."- Daily Mail today

Yes-as did another pilot forum in their infinite wisdom even when it became clear where matters were going.
There is censorship-then there is stupidity.

[costalpilot]

630 hours? not that that has anything to do with sanity, but that surprises me.

even though I believe many politicians are stupid, I don't believe any would be stupid enough to announce this without unassailable evidence, and yes, it is just possible they know more than we do.

and that they are not telling everything they know.

in fact, i believe its a certainty.

they would ask the fbi for help because (according to cnn) the co-pilot was trained in arizona.

[henra]

I would imagine after inputs are entered and the a/c is descending the co-pilot would have time to incapacitate a c/c member, or maybe not, the security (denial of entry button/switch as posted previously) would not allow the c/c member to open the f/d door.

He would just need to switch to 'Unlock' and the door would be unlocked.

People who commit suicide by indirect means (throwing themselves in front of Trains, driving into opposite traffic, etc.) are usually not 'murderers' by type in the sense of that they would be capable of knocking someone down directly. It is a huge difference to kill/incapacitate someone physically versus turning a few Switches and wait for something incomprehensible from that you only know that it will be so quick that it won't hurt.

[rideforever]

If you can hear the co-pilot clicking the door lock button, that is direct evidence.

If you could hear him in an anxious state breathing heavily as I imagine someone in the process of murder would be ... that would also be direct evidence.

Otherwise it is all imagination.
Perhaps people like to imagine that life is a big disaster movie.
Rather the mundane truth that accidents happen.

A number of planes have gone down recently with no-one found responsible ... it is starting to look like no-one is really in control and life is precarious.

And maybe that is simply the truth.

[athonite]

FLYING OFFICER KITE - Not sure I agree with your thesis that all ex miltary types are more stable. Just remind, me what was the background of the captain who took off his trousers at the BHX security gate, and then was subsequently fired for carrying PAX on the flight deck against the SOPs post 9/11.

[thcrozier]

There is a picture of the guy with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background. Maybe they just want the FBI to look into any of his activities while in the US.

[SLFplatine]

So, it is possible the door jammed and the pilot WAS incap. Seems unlikely but how often is it the confluence of events not one that is responsible for this type of thing.

Captain Kremin in two posts, 25/03 @ 0739 and 25/03 @ 19h20 (pp 27 & 41 at the moment) prior to today's announcement presented an argument based a set of known facts which which would not support the incapacitation theory.

[Skyring66]

As a matter of law, concluding that a pilot is a murderer is wrong, but disclosing facts that strongly suggested that the pilot is a murderer is perfectly legitimate. It is for the courts to make these kinds of conclusions... preferably after a trial.As a matter of French law, there's not going to be a trial. What punishment could they impose?

In this case, disclosing as much information as is known, as early as possible, is a kindness to the relatives. They know their loved ones are dead; what they want are explanations.

As do we all, I suggest.

[PassengerDan]

Or he is entering the wrong code

The Lufthansa CEO said that even the flight attendants know this code.

[banjodrone]

It's such a shame how things have necessarily changed though. I can remember when I was younger, the cockpit doors would often be wide open, you could peek your head in after using the forward toilet and sometimes the friendly crew would have a little chat with you. Different times. Hard to crack this one though.....if you have to go, you have to go, and you don't want to go down the road of GA-style porta-urinals.

[Laarbruch72]

Those locked doors have now killed more people than they have saved.

Can you share the figures with us?

[Simplythebeast]

Rideforrever....."If you could hear him in an anxious state breathing heavily as I imagine someone in the process of murder would be ... that would also be direct evidence".
Get a grip.

[Wader2]

100 hrs SIC on A320? How long was he with GW? Hardly over worked at 100hr/m.

If he was on an hourly contract then he could have been under severe pressure.

[SLFguy]

Those locked doors have now killed more people than they have saved.


How is it even possible to make that statement? :confused:

Unbelievable.

[Interested Lay Bloke]

Cyberhacker ...

I imagine the FBI would be involved due to US involvement in aircraft (engine?) manufacture ...?

Also there were 3 US citizens aboard.

Finally, - (and no I'm NOT one of the tinfoil hat brigade) I think one could possibly be a person of extra interest for the US - Yvonne Selke - as she apparently worked for Pentagon contractors Booz Allen Hamilton doing work for the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency.

Yvonne Selke and Emily Selke, Nokesville Mom, Daughter, Presumed Dead in French Plane Crash | NBC4 Washington (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/American-Crash-Victims-US-Government-Contractor-daughter-297527161.html)

[Jonty]

I was under the impression that you could hear him winding the Alt knob on the CVR. Can't find it now though.

[AirScotia]

We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more dat (http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616)

[Buckfast]

a 28yr old with 600TT and 100 A320SIC...has no business being in the cockpit of the germanwings 320...when I got to his position at a US airline I had well over 10,000 hours and pushing 40+. Heard ryanair had a 18yr old f/o...ladies and gentlemen we need mature, experienced, stable people flying this type of aircraft PERIOD.

You are correct, in general, but;
This incident has little or nothing to do with flying experience.

[Doors to Automatic]

Regarding costs of safety perhaps the time has come for a safety fund provided by each state (paid for by premiums by airlines or flat surcharges to tickets per journey or mile) which provides a subsidy to airlines in order to "top up" any safety aspect deemed necessary such as an extra pilot, extra crew to lower hours slightly, more fuel on board etc. If it is a level playing field then there can be no competitive issues.

[flyonthewall]

A considerable issue is that if a pilot goes to the company and says he is stressed or depressed or suffering any diminished mental capacity, he is usually taken off line and a black mark put against his name. Even if the condition is a passing one (e.g. due to a divorce, death in the family, financial woes), the pilot will still be earmarked as 'one to watch'. This in itself would mean that the system is operating as it is supposed to, but unfortunately any real or perceived reduction in a pilots capacity to handle stress will haunt his CV forever. Medical departments know what is at stake and err on the side of caution in most cases.

Couple this with the fact that there are no loss of licence policies that cover diminished mental capacity/mental illness, and coming forward to say you think you have a problem is as good as tearing up your pay check and kissing your career goodbye.

[banjodrone]

a 28yr old with 600TT and 100 A320SIC...has no business being in the cockpit of the germanwings 320...when I got to his position at a US airline I had well over 10,000 hours and pushing 40+. Heard ryanair had a 18yr old f/o...ladies and gentlemen we need mature, experienced, stable people flying this type of aircraft PERIOD.

The pool of pilots with such vast pre-airline experience simply does not exist in Europe. In the US you have a very active GA sector to get pilots from even at a time when the first Vietnam-era pilots are starting to retire. For that reason, in Europe we've mostly had to rely on pilot selection by raw aptitude, especially in the last 10-15 years or so, rather than the ability to recruit seasoned experts for their first airline positions. It's just how things are.

[AirScotia]

Is it beyond the architecture of most jets to install a second security door across the corridor leading to the forward loo? It could be left open at all times, and cabin crew alerted to lock it when a member of flight crew needed to use the facilities.

[cessnapete]

What a difference this affair shows regarding the Air Safety culture in Europe re some other parts of the world.
AirAsia have had the CVR and FDR info for a month or two now, and yet not a word of a preliminary report of the fatal A320 accident off Indonesia, again seemingly crew related.

[iflyboeing747]

they will have to sacrifice that 1/2 sqm extra for that safety..

[FO Cokebottle]

Operated an ex-QF 400 out of Nigeria in 2013. It had exactly that!!.....A LAV in the cockpit.

[wheelsright]

If we take out the consideration of the Captain being locked out and the various Facebook theories, what are the possibilities of the PF having a mini-stroke or other cognitive impairment? Was he confused as to the stage of flight and fixated on the landing briefing in a state of semi-consciousness thinking that he was to commence descent?

Even for someone that is deranged and about to kill himself and all his passengers and crew, it would be surprising to me that he did not say a word (or so it appears).

[Shandy52]

@de facto, a more charitable interpretation could class this as lateral thinking!

[abgd]

Whatever the truth of this crash, I wonder what the ensuing discussions will means for pilots who have or who have suffered depression?

It's a very common disease, even in its severe forms. People differ in their resilience, but practically everybody will crack up mentally given a sufficiently adverse sequence of events. Most will recover and return to being productive members of society.

The important thing to remember is that most depressed pilots don't end up killing themselves or anybody else. And also that enabling people to seek support for their depression without fear of censure is likely to be safer than draconian options such as forcing them to work through an episode, hiding it from their peers at risk of losing their careers if they're found out.

[Spooky 2]

In fact there is a secondary security door option on the 787 and 777.

[vanHorck]

Total time when he joined Lufthansa in september2013 of just 650 hours? That does not make sense.... Thats an average of some 40 hours per month?

Was he on part time contract and unable to generate sufficient money to live on?

[AirScotia]

@PortVale

This wouldn't have prevented the incident. Cockpit door would still possibly be closed after Captain/FO exit to go to the lavatory. Even if it wasn't, when the Pilot goes to the lavatory the other could get up and close it.

The point is to allow access to the loo without the cockpit door being locked, so the locking mechanism for the cockpit door would have to be automatically disabled as soon as the crew member opened it.

[gordonroxburgh]

Quote:
Or he is entering the wrong code
The Lufthansa CEO said that even the flight attendants know this code.

You can lock the Keypad out from inside the Cockpit; this is a key part of the system, so a Flight Attendant with a knife to their throat can be made to opne the door .

[oldoberon]

Ident.: DSC-25-11-20-00001007.0001001 / 10 DEC 09
Applicable to: ALL
The Cockpit Door Locking System (CDLS) provides a means of electrically locking and unlocking the
cockpit door. This system is mainly composed of :
‐ A keypad, located in the forward cabin, near the cockpit door,
‐ A toggle switch, located in the center pedestal’s Cockpit Door panel,
‐ A control unit and its CKPT DOOR CONT normal panel, located on the overhead panel,
‐ A buzzer.
The keypad enables the cabin crew to request access to the cockpit. There are two different access
request types : “Routine” and “Emergency” access request (Refer to PRO-SUP-25 Cockpit Door
Operation - General).
The toggle switch enables the flight crew to lock or unlock the cockpit door, following an access
request, thereby allowing or denying the entry to the cockpit.
The cockpit door control unit is the system controller, in charge of :
‐ Locking or unlocking the door latches, upon flight crew action.
‐ Unlocking the door, in case of cockpit decompression (the door then opens towards the cockpit
under differential pressure).
‐ Indicating system failures of electrical latches and pressure sensors.
‐ Activating the access request buzzer and turning on the keypad LEDs.
The buzzer sounds in the cockpit for 1 to 9 s to indicate that a routine access request has been
made, or sounds continuously if an emergency access procedure has been initiated.

There have been a number of posts suggesting depressurising the aircraft, the above text from the manual says COCKPIT decompression (see bold txt), so does this mean depressurising the cabin would not unlock the door until the FD had slowly reduced via panels etc, and even then as the flight deck would only reduce to the same lower cabin pressure there would not be a negative differential in the cabin so would it work?

It also says with a cabin dperessure the door would open inwards due to pressure differential, I take it it cannot open in the outwards direction even manually.

[Krautwald]

Total time when he joined Lufthansa in september2013 of just 650 hours? That does not make sense.... Thats an average of some 40 hours per month?



Newly licensed Lufthansa pilots from their cadet program have been on waiting lists for the last years. Maybe his employment there started with some months refresher / ops training / type rating...?

[donpizmeov2]

Did GermanWing pilots have to pass DLR?

[abgd]

This wouldn't have prevented the incident.

Well, presumably you'd make it so that if the second door is closed, the cabin door can't be locked.

Whether Airbus envelope protection is sufficiently robust that there would be no way to break the plane whilst the other pilot is in the toilet, I don't know.

[vanHorck]

Hi Krautwald,

Any hours including training and type ratings count towards the total number of hours.

[Diver-BR]

What a difference this affair shows regarding the Air Safety culture in Europe re some other parts of the world.
AirAsia have had the CVR and FDR info for a month or two now, and yet not a word of a preliminary report of the fatal A320 accident off Indonesia, again seemingly crew related.

I would guess that the distinct nature of the accidents force that approach. Once it became evident that the GermanWings crash was intentional, the kind of inquires going on would be different, so it would eventually leak to the press. Better control the information flow turning it public ASAP.

[AirResearcher]

The BBC reported at 12:24 today:


"Brice Robin said the responses of the co-pilot, named as Andreas Lubitz, 28, were initially courteous but became "curt" when the captain began to give a mid-flight briefing, about the planned landing of the Germanwings flight"


Germanwings crash latest updates - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-32070570)


Maybe relevant, maybe not - but thought I'd raise it any case anyone hadn't seen it...

[G-ARVH]

A 28yr old with 600TT and 100 A320SIC...has no business being in the cockpit of the germanwings 320...when I got to his position at a US airline I had well over 10,000 hours and pushing 40+. Heard ryanair had a 18yr old f/o...ladies and gentlemen we need mature, experienced, stable people flying this type of aircraft PERIOD.

Indeed, however the Airlines don't want 10,000 hour experienced pilots, they want crews who will work for reduced terms and conditions. This is the problem, as someone correctly pointed out previously, the industry needs to be fixed before worrying about the cockpit door.

[silvertate]

. For that reason, in Europe we've mostly had to rely on pilot selection by raw aptitude, especially in the last 10-15 years or so, rather than the ability to recruit seasoned experts for their first airline positions.



Correction. We rely on pilot selection by raw ability to pay the training fees - a different kettle of fish entirely. No aptitude selection whatsoever, in my experience.

[Dingo63]

You cannot automate out the human flying the plane. If you cannot trust the pilots it just doesn't matter what you come up with. In my opinion, ( 30 year ATC retired) that whenever the counters try to come up with ways to automate out the human factor, you lose something because invariably the skill set subsequently required is lowered.

Now the bean-counters can argue that because of a new program they no longer need to pay for experience. Human factor issues are what they are. I don't know the answer, but somehow trust has to be restored and professionalism.

And too, try to stop the reflexive "fixes" when vulnerabilities are determined, ie, the 9/11 stuff. More than one of those planes had hijackers already sitting in the jump seat, no?... the cockpit door, the banning of knives, shoes, et all, is so knee-jerk. Understandable for sure, but frustrating in practice because they don't address the real causation.

[T250]

Why are the media saying that most of the pax were unaware of the situation until the last moments.

The Captain was said to be trying to force entry to the flight deck... This act creates much noise and would have alerted many pax towards front of aircraft what was going on! :rolleyes::ugh::hmm:

[DirtyProp]

Correction. We rely on pilot selection by raw ability to pay the training fees - a different kettle of fish entirely. No aptitude selection whatsoever, in my experience.
Good point.
But then again, a civilian flight school is a business where the primary purpose is to make money.

[Krautwald]

Did GermanWing pilots have to pass DLR?

I am not sure about ready entry FOs. But this guy was from the Lufthansa cadet program and this is assessed through DLR preselection and then company selection.

[Krautwald]

Hi Krautwald,

Any hours including training and type ratings count towards the total number of hours.


True, but they will add up slower during training/rating/familiarization months than in full daily flight duty. Add some waiting time for stuff like evac drill asf, and the low hours might be explained.

[cgwhitemonk11]

Simple.

I am currently 26 and have been flying since I was 18, I will most likely move on to flying an A320 or similar when I am 29, not too dissimilar to this FO. Now by that time I will have more than 4000 TT and flown in no particular order:

C208b bush flying
GA8 para dropping
DHC6 airline
Q400 airline

I will have worked my socks off and sacrificed to get there, have two kids and a beautiful wife at home and been around the world.

Who do you want sitting in the RHS of your positioning flight? Me or the 200 hr cadet who's daddy paid for his TR? I highly doubt this guy has been radicalised or we would have heard someone claim responsibility, he is simply a selfish individual who has ruined thousands of lives.

Bring in the 1500 TT FAA rule and we can start fixing our industry.

[Krautwald]

Lufthansa paid for his training after assessing him on aptitude. One of the few cadet programs left where no money is needed up front...

All your other points are valid, though...

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

What bothers me here is that this was leaked or presented to the press and public before the investigation is even remotely complete. Granted, this appears to be common practice in the age of instant information demand. How convenient it is to always blame two dead pilots, or in this case, one dead pilot.. Can't we wait for the official report to be released from the investigative authorities before the world lynches this poor guy!? Think of what his family must be going through now. In addition, based on what I know of Lufthansa's selection criteria for pilots which can easily be said to be one of the toughest in the world, I'm just not buying this. Not until all the facts are out.

[LadyL2013]

If this was suicide on his part due to mental health I think this just furthers the fact that attitudes towards mental health HAVE to change in the aviation industry. You shouldn't have to have a black mark against your name for the simple reason of being human and becoming unwell. As long as you are able to perform your duties safely, I cannot see any reason why it should be treated any differently to say diabetes controlled with insulin. And even if it affects ones ability to fly, then fine take them off them the line for a while, but I can't see why they can't return to work when fit and capable again.

Pilots are human, which often seems to get forgotten about it seems.

[ciderman]

Time for those like me who have flown aircraft for over 40 years but who were forced to retire to dust off the old uniforms? We might not be legally entitled to fly the aircraft but from any jump seat even now I could tell you when things ain't right on the flight deck of any make of aircraft. What's more I am unlikely to have whatever demons drove this young man to do what he apparently did.

[kungfu panda]

It is so convenient for the LCC's, the regulators and the training organisations to blame this on suicide rather than the more likely negligence due to insufficient experience.

[andyjoy]

the 1 thing that really does not sit well with me is that the FO was breathing normally and never said a word yet people were screaming in the cabin

knowing people that have had strokes/seizures it is highly possible that breathing can stay in a normal state and not a sound be made also can send them into a disorientated state and or followed by a state of unconsciousness

this is in no way a me being an armchair investigator just putting it out there i just think its unfair to say at this early stage of the investigation

[silvertate]

But then again, a civilian flight school is a business where the primary purpose is to make money.


That is not the point. The flightschools do a very good job.

The problem is that the old BA flight scheme of many decades back (or the RAF) had thousands of candidates to choose from. The modern school has one - the guy at the front desk with a chequebook. And the basic aptitude of that candidate, in terms of intelligence, cognitive ability and hand-eye coordination may be excellent, good, intermediate or dire. But he still ticks the box and gets the job, because he (or she) is cheap.

[reptile]

G-ARVH, you are correct in saying that change is needed in this industry.

That change will not happen easily or quickly. Airlines sell a demand driven commodity, and as such are subject to whims of the consumer. The consumers have become accustomed to cheap airfares.

Since keeping aircraft in the air is expensive business, airlines have no choice but to save where they can. Pilot remuneration has always, and will always be an easy target for cost cutting. They will therefore continue to drive for lower wages and erosion of perks, since that ultimately allows them to offer cheaper fares. I have seen a steady erosion of pay and perks in my 25 years of flying, and there seems to be no end in sight.

Any airline who suddenly start employing highly experienced pilots, will inevitably see a rise in expenditure. Ticket prices would have to be increased, and pax are sure to abandon the airline.

It truly is a vicious circle. One could almost say that the passengers are ultimately their own worst enemy……….

[fa2fi]

This is NOT a LCC issue. After all BA have been taking on 200 hour cadets since the 70s.

[training wheels]

a 28yr old with 600TT and 100 A320SIC

This would suggest the FO was still under line training with only 100 hours on the A320. If so, then you'd have to question how his line training was going and whether his progress was normal or whether he had some inadequacies which he may have taken to heart. All part of the human factors side of the investigation I guess.

[hax]

T250: Why are the media saying that most of the pax were unaware of the situation until the last moments.

This is taken from the statement made in the briefing earlier today by Brice Robin:

I think that the victims did not realise what was happening until the last moment, the very last moment. Because in the recording, we could only hear the cries at the last moment, just before the impact with the ground.

(quote taken from BBC reporting and widely substantiated in other outlets).

[Seattleite]

So many folks in so many jobs are "vulnerable," but incredibly difficult to predict when it will become dangerous. Could the conditions of his employment be any worse than those of thousands of 20-somethings flying regional turboprops all over the world?

[TRW Plus]

Re: previous suggestion of over-riding inappropriate flight changes ... This does not really solve the problem of malevolent pilot in charge, it just keeps the airplane flying to the point of fuel exhaustion (MH 370 a possible example).

[oldoberon]

the 1 thing that really does not sit well with me is that the FO was breathing normally and never said a word yet people were screaming in the cabin

knowing people that have had strokes/seizures it is highly possible that breathing can stay in a normal state and not a sound be made also can send them into a disorientated state and or followed by a state of unconsciousness

this is in no way a me being an armchair investigator just putting it out there i just think its unfair to say at this early stage of the investigation

you are ignoring the fact the GW CEO has confirmed that the FO operated the lock switch more than once during descent, GW time delay for emergency opening is set to the minimum 5 mins.

[condorbaaz]

Do they have a system of safety pilot during line training to be in control should the pic or instructor be incapacitated for any reason or is out of the cockpit for physiological reasons?

[armchairpilot94116]

The ability of one pilot being able to commit suicide by taking out the whole plane, by locking out the other pilot has got to end.

My iphone5 has a fingerprint reader that allows me to use the phone. Shouldn't cockpit doors be able to be opened the same way by members of the flight crew? Short of losing your finger on your way out of the toilet, you should be able to re-enter the flight deck.

Of course if the pilot flying puts the plane into a spiral while the other one is at the loo. There's no saving the plane either.

[DirtyProp]

The problem is that the old BA flight scheme of many decades back (or the RAF) had thousands of candidates to choose from. The modern school has one - the guy at the front desk with a chequebook. And the basic aptitude of that candidate, in terms of intelligence, cognitive ability and hand-eye coordination may be excellent, good, intermediate or dire. But he still ticks the box and gets the job, because he (or she) is cheap.

Yes, but remember that the airlines are businesses too.
They have to follow the market, and the market now wants to fly cheap. How cheap? As cheap as possible. Fine, then I'll have to cut anywhere I can.

[hax]

armchairpilot: fingerprint is no better or worse than a door code. In any event, it would have no bearing on the present incident, in which the door was (allegedly) locked by the FO. Doesn't matter what you are using to secure the door - if it is manually overridden from the other side, there is nothing to be done.

[Easy Street]

BBC News: Budget airline Easyjet has said it will require two crew in the cockpit of its aircraft at all times from Friday. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32075657)

[2Planks]

Cgwhitemonk11, I have no doubt you have worked hard to get where you are - and I don't doubt I would rather have you in the RHS than a 200hr cadet, much as I would rather have a 40 year old military pilot with 1000s of hours in a dynamic jet than you. But considering this case that still doesn't make you or the mil fast jet guy less likely to drive an aircraft into the ground later in life. Setting aside radicalisation, mental health issues can occur at anytime in your life, triggered by any number of things, If this is the cause of this tragic incident your arguments are irrelevant and should be taken to another thread.

[Sober Lark]

Sick to hear EasyJet getting publicity on BBC Radio 4 just now saying from today they will bring in the two in the cockpit rule. Perhaps the presenter should give credit to airlines who already had this procedure in place and not those who want to profit today on others misfortune.

[AirResearcher]

@ DirtyProp - agreed, but costs are being driven down by the lowest common denominator LCCs , the question is are the regulators giving too much free reign which is putting too much financial strain on all carriers?

[Doc1972]

Absolutely agree with Andyjoy- i am worried about damning this man so quickly. Epilepsy might mimic this scenario. Simple partial seizures or dissociative states associated with psychiatric illness could potentially lead to this problem

Dissociative Seizures: a Challenge for Neurologists and Psychotherapists (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3647137/)

[McGinty]

Cost reduction in low cost airlines comes at the expense of increased stress on pilots. A previous post mentions the Colgan crash - here is a section about that crash that I wrote in a case study about the Flybe heavy landing in Belfast in February 2014 by the one-armed pilot:

"The US National Transportation Safety Board’s investigation into the crash of a Colgan Air Dash 8 just outside of the airport at Buffalo, New York on Feb 12, 2009 revealed alarming facts about the lifestyles of pilots on low cost airlines in the United States. Both of the pilots routinely slept overnight on couches in the airline’s Newark Airport Crew Lounge. Neither pilot actually lived in New York – one lived in Seattle, the other in Florida, and both commuted to their Newark base by free air travel."

"Their long commutes (5 hours for the First Officer and 3 hours for the Captain) plus their uncomfortable sleeping arrangements were considered to have contributed to fatigue as an element of the crash. Internet pilot discussion groups attributed their bizarre no-frills lifestyles to their low pay, but noted that this was a common practice when such pilots could not afford hotels, and could not afford the housing costs of their home low-cost airline base. This lifestyle image was in stark contrast to the popular image of the glamorous lifestyles of flag and legacy pilots, accommodated in first-class hotels at layover destinations."

These facts are not directly related to the specific stresses on this Germanwings FO, but are sadly part of the general new psychological environment for low-cost airline pilots all over the world.

[ciderman]

AirRabbit,


I think that is what my post was alluding to.

[andyjoy]

oldoberon

not at all but it seems he has been hung drawn and quartered just because the BEA says thats what happened ....and we all know how the concorde investigation went
but those in a state of confusion though strokes/fits etc can do things that they think are normal sorry but even someone that is trying to kill themselfs do not stay in a stable state of breathing as like every person the body goes in to flight or fight mode and readies itself its a human reaction that nobody can control

[oldoberon]

The ability of one pilot being able to commit suicide by taking out the whole plane, by locking out the other pilot has got to end.

My iphone5 has a fingerprint reader that allows me to use the phone. Shouldn't cockpit doors be able to be opened the same way by members of the flight crew? Short of losing your finger on your way out of the toilet, you should be able to re-enter the flight deck.

Of course if the pilot flying puts the plane into a spiral while the other one is at the loo. There's no saving the plane either.

your iphone fingerprint system was very quickly cracked as were other features of that ios release.

any way if a hijacker held a gun to your head and put your finger over the scanner bingo he is in, without the PIC authorising the entry.

[DaveReidUK]

Apparently they have the MCP settings from the Mode S- extended squitter (ES). That's how they know it was intentional.Is there official confirmation of that? Selected altitude/rate parameters would establish the intention of altitude change.

It would have been very strange if ATC hadn't been recording Selected Altitude, given that there would have been several Mode S radars within range, interrogating the flight for that and other parameters (ironically, to detect a level bust).

See here: We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more dat (http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616)

for the couple of seconds during which SEL ALT was changed from 38,000ft to 100ft.

[GearDown&Locked]

hmm one has to be one big sick MF with ice for a heart to point a gun to the head of 149 people including children and wait calmly for the trigger to be pulled in about 8 minutes or so, without a sound, ignoring everyone.

IMV this has nothing to do with depression.

Regarding the cockpit door: replace the expensive door lock systems by an air marshal, close enough to the cockpit.

[Pace]

There has been a contradiction on the mental make up of the FO by the prosecutor who has also dispelled suicide.
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.

The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.

There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND

It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.

Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood

[Uplinker]

A thought;

Simply move the cockpit door rearwards so that the forward toilet becomes part of the flight deck, (sorry passengers - you will have to use the rear toilets). That way, no pilot can be locked out of the flight deck while going to the loo.

The only time that either pilot would then need to go through the locked door would be to board or de-plane at each end of their flying duty.

The controls and operation of the locked cockpit door by the pilots would be just the same as it is now, but the door would be moved about a meter back.

[RexBanner]

And then what if the Air Marshal then has nefarious intentions? We just keep going round and round in circles. At the end of the day we just have to accept that in life we live with some very sick people who have the potential to cause us harm. We can never get rid of this risk completely just as we can't get rid of the element of risk in all parts of life. What if a tree fell down and killed someone, do we then chop down all trees so they can't harm anyone any more?

Is it horrific and tragic what has happened but it is exactly the same as what happened in Mumbai or in Sandy Hook or in Columbine High School. If someone wants to cause other people harm they will do, regardless of what we do.

[vanHorck]

In my mind it is unavoidable that airlines will work constantly towards lowest possible cost. They can hardly be blamed for that, as after the de-regulation of air travel and the abolition of state supported airlines, the role of the CEO is to ensure maximum long term return on investment for his shareholders. All other aims to him are secondary, it is simply economics.

This automatically implies government or supra-governmental organizations will need to ensure this normal drive does not affect safety. Safety can never be self regulatory and requires stiff regulation. Not easy.

[Keef]

Nothing that I've read so far mentions the captain saying anything while trying to get back onto the flight deck. Surely, before setting to with whatever he was using to try to open the door, he would have called to the FO, and the FO would presumably have replied.

[vanHorck]

Hi Keef,

From recollection, the prosecutor mentioned that the captain at first knocked gently and later was more forceful on attempting to re-enter, I am assuming this will have included verbal attempts.

The prosecutor also said that the FO did not utter a single word after the Captain left the flight deck. This must therefore mean he did not pick up the intercom nor replied to the captain through the door.

[captplaystation]

Sorry it is in French, Norwegian doing an "Easy" .

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/international/crash-a320-des-compagnies-nordiques-changent-leurs-procedures-551419fa35707e3e941f7af8

[GearDown&Locked]

@Keef apparently there was never an answer to the Cpts queries, so the Marseille prosecutor said.

[fa2fi]

Airline safety is better than it has been for a LONG time. Please provide evidence that the current approach to business is not as safe as the state run airlines once were.

I can't think of anywhere where safety is self regulating. There are regulators to oversee safety.

And with respect all of the previous examples of pilot suicide have been national carriers/full service/state airlines. Let's stop the LCC bashing.

[Asterea]

In fact RiSq I believe someone committing suicide is thinking very logically. What they see is no future, so why carry on, there is no point, so end it all.

This is the thought process behind suicide. So why did he think he had no future? that is the question.

There is no one (logical or illogical) thought process at work in cases of suicide in general. Only a complex, individual-specific multitude of factors - including - but not limited to - external stressors (e.g. Financial or relationship problems); poor coping strategies, developmental factors, addiction, mental health issues / diagnoses). The thought process in psychosis would not be described as logical, and suicide may occur secondary to a delusional process, command hallucinations, PTSD or other symptoms. Incidentally, this can actually be accurately described as a suicide/homicide. There will never just be one 'reason' to explain a complex interplay of biological, social, psychological, environmental stressors and factors. From a mental health professional - not a pilot.

[atakacs]

This is story is really both tragic and hard to believe.

That being said I think we have to recognize that it would be tremendously complex - if not impossible - to setup a system that would prevent a repeat with a high degree of confidence. Simply put if a pilot wants to crash the plane he can do it. Yes some protections could be put in place but they would create new issues by themselves - on a pure risk / reward / cost analysis I guess the best action is to do nothing I leve with the (thankfully) very very low risk of another such atrocity.

[fastjet45]

banjodrone
The pool of pilots with such vast pre-airline experience simply does not exist in Europe. In the US you have a very active GA sector to get pilots from even at a time when the first Vietnam-era pilots are starting to retire. For that reason, in Europe we've mostly had to rely on pilot selection by raw aptitude, especially in the last 10-15 years or so, rather than the ability to recruit seasoned experts for their first airline positions. It's just how things are.


Well blame the authorities for this situation, it was not that long ago when they more or less scrapped the self improver route, (PPL, Instructor, CPL, Turboprop, 1500 hours later ATPL and maybe the right seat of a jet) in the UK in favour of young button pushing wannabes coming out with a licence after 200 hours !!!!!

[banjodrone]

There has been a contradiction on the mental make up of the FO by the prosecutor who has also dispelled suicide.
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.

The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.

There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND

It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.

Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood

Excellent point!

[JW411]

I can remember reading a book written by psychos about stress in flying when I was heavily involved in training.

It was a very interesting read and I can still remember smiling hugely at the comment that:

"7% of pilots holding a CPL or higher are, technically speaking, clinically mad".

Despite the odd (no pun intended) eccentric student, I never really felt that this was a valid figure but I am beginning to wonder.

[G-ARVH]

G-ARVH, you are correct in saying that change is needed in this industry.

That change will not happen easily or quickly. Airlines sell a demand driven commodity, and as such are subject to whims of the consumer. The consumers have become accustomed to cheap airfares.

Since keeping aircraft in the air is expensive business, airlines have no choice but to save where they can. Pilot remuneration has always, and will always be an easy target for cost cutting. They will therefore continue to drive for lower wages and erosion of perks, since that ultimately allows them to offer cheaper fares. I have seen a steady erosion of pay and perks in my 25 years of flying, and there seems to be no end in sight.

Any airline who suddenly start employing highly experienced pilots, will inevitably see a rise in expenditure. Ticket prices would have to be increased, and pax are sure to abandon the airline.

It truly is a vicious circle. One could almost say that the passengers are ultimately their own worst enemy……….

I agree with all you say. However since 10.00UTC today airline shares around the world have have been falling steadily. 8.5% of the value of Lufthansa has disappeared into the ionosphere over the last 48 hrs. Much figure drumming will be taking place on airline boardroom tables. By 10.00UTC tomorrow (Friday) the international insurance market will have more bad news for the boardroom bosses. The insurance industry will not tolerate the multiple millions of dollars of hull losses we have seen over the past 12 months. This will put more unwanted pressure on the boardroom.

[wings folded]

Could the sounds of hammering at the door have been items of cabin luggage percuting the door?

[bratschewurst]

Depression can cause people to kill themselves; by itself it does not cause people to commit mass murder. That's a whole different mental illness, and one that good psychological testing arguably should have picked up during the hiring process.

Having said that, the argument that a second person in the cockpit is not really a safeguard against this kind of behavior- because a pilot bent on such mass murder would simply start with the person next to him - is flawed. It's one thing to change a couple of switches to cause a plane full of people to crash; it's another thing to batter a co-worker to death in a confined space. The mindset that can do the first is not necessarily one that will do the second.

[toffeez]

I'm not sure it is, in the Ryanair or EasyJet sense. Too many costs inherited from the DLH business model.
Up to now (fingers crossed) the European true Low Cost Carriers have an excellent safety record.

[vanHorck]

I beg to differ with your opinion that all is hunky dory in the balance between profitability and safety.

The strikes and threats of strikes suggest the boundary has been reached or even crossed.

My statement is a general one about the complexity of the interactions, there is no fact which links the disaster to industrial unrest, but several people have intimated this could play a role.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Why was the 'self improver' route curtailed? Was there any evidence that airline pilots who had come up that way were not up to snuff?

[suninmyeyes]

It would be nice if this accident highlighted to the various aviation authorities the utter futility of making pilots go through airport security and have bottles of water removed etc. I am not saying all airport security for pilots should be removed but to impose the same restrictions on pilots as for passengers is clearly inappropriate. The present security restrictions can have an adverse effect on safety when it results in flight crew being heckled for queue jumping and results in them arriving at the aircraft late, frustrated and in a harassed frame of mind.


A suicidal pilot does not need weapons and could ensure total destruction of the aircraft whether he is alone or whether there are 2,3 or 4 people in the flight deck. I am not going into detail. As Nigel on Draft mentioned earlier a suicidal cabin crew member left in the flight deck with an unsuspecting Captain or First Officer can equally take over. No solution is foolproof.

[Twiglet1]

BBC News 24 - Expert - Cpt Mike Vivian ex Head of Ops CAA
At frigging last an expert rather than a so called expert. Interview for 5 mins or so. Knowledgeable, respectful, articulate, immediate understandable answer, not too much Pilot jargon. Put it over very well even with the Easyjet announcement mid interview.
At last, thank you Mike :D

[butterfly68]

on the italian press there is a report from the german faz.net newspaper that the copilot had suffered several years ago a "burn out" syndrome and decided to stop to fly for a while.....so...if this is true things start to be more clear regarding the mental situation of this man...:suspect:

[skyrangerpro]

I think a word of appreciation to the manufacturers of the CVR is in order. About the only thing that wasn't pulverised - fit for purpose. If we had been reliant on the FDR the mystery might have taken a lot longer to unravel - if at all.

[cldrvr]

What happened in the last few pages, now it is a poor FO who was bullied by his captain and we should find blame elsewhere?

Get real guys, this character willfully locked the captain out and decided to play kamikaze.


If he wasn't some young kid whose license was barely dry buying a job with a loco as so many others do here we wouldn't be having this conversation and the 144 passengers would be sitting home with loved ones.


There is only one person to blame here, the FO.

[AirResearcher]

@Twiglet1 - agreed-here's a link to the interview if anyone wants to listen. BBC Radio 5 live - In Short, Former Head of CAA Flight Ops: Germanwings voice recorder reports 'don't add up' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02mstzk)

[dmba]

In historical cases of pilot suicide/deliberate action, has there been a recurring motive?

[DCP123]

bratschewurst is absolutely right that the ability/insanity that would allow a person to fly a plane full of people into the ground is not necessarily the same one that will allow someone to beat a coworker to death with the limited weapons in the cockpit.

I'm not a psychiatrist treating the murderously insane, but it seems to this layperson that having to beat a flight attendant to death or unconsciousness would probably stop most of the limited group of pilots insane enough to want to kill a planeload of people. And perhaps those with that special kind of crazy that would allow beating someone to death up close and personal could be more easily screened out than those merely insane enough to want to kill many strangers when killing themselves.

[MoJo WoJo]

Search : thomas cook - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/search/?q=thomas+cook)

[Dingo63]

All this speculation on door security or automation is moot. IF you cannot trust a pilot to always act with the safety of his/her aircraft as first priority and those on the ground second... then what?

My career was ATC. You pilots know your side, but a determined individual sitting up front can kill with certainty on takeoff or short final, ( esp in wx or IMC ) a lot more than cruise flight regardless of another pilot in cockpit or not. And too.. an Airbus would not react well to left seat fighting the right seat for control, no?

No one can automate out intent. Once we go down the rabbit hole of not trusting one pilot actions... commercial aviation is doomed. Unacceptable risk.

[tdracer]

I read something a while back about people with 'suicidal tendencies'. At least according to the article, it is quite common that when someone becomes suicidal, they do not consider the consequences of their action on other people. It's not that they don't care that other people may die, the thought that they could be killing other people never even occurs to them. Hence the person who turns their car into oncoming traffic never even thinks about the possibility that people in the car they collide with may be seriously hurt or killed.
Rather scary if true, but it would help explain things.

[xcitation]

There has been criticism from posters of the prosecutor releasing info too early. French Public Law is very different to the common law practiced in many Western countries. For example I believe the prosecutor is usually a judge not just an attorney.

[kungfu panda]

Experienced Captains, especially in Asia have an understanding of what probably happened in this case, it was likely not suicide. It was probably "bunny in the headlights" syndrome. It happens a lot, in my personal experience, with low hour First Officers. They get themselves into situations they don't know how to get out of, they are paralysed with fear and they just wait for the Captain to rescue them. This may happen less in Europe but of course it happens. These guys that I fly with come out of renowned worldwide training schools. What is unusual in this case is that the First Officer got himself into this situation in the cruise and when the Captain could not rescue him, this was bad luck.

I have laughed along with co-pilots at the foolish things that they have done as we both knew that it was part of their learning experience.

[fastjet45]

As others have said I am not convinced two in the cockpit at all times will ultimately be a solution. Using that theory it means bringing in a cabin crew member while one pilot visits the bathroom who will most likely have no idea how to fly an aircraft, all it would take is for the remaining handling pilot to quickly shut off the engines and or electrics and announce you have control while the person who left the flight is locked out.

[fa2fi]

The statistics prove you wrong. Airline strikes have been going on for decades. Flying is safer than ever, and cheaper than ever. The is zero correlation between safety and the cost base of the airline in the Western World.

[DCP123]

While the former CAA official may have done a great job in his interview, I don't agree that the audio of the captain trying to break in doesn't add up. It adds up for me. The captain was trying to beat the door down because he didn't have an angle grinder, pry bar or other tool that might actually do the job.

It doesn't matter how secure you tell me a lightweight aluminum-framed door is, if the person on the other side has control of a plane and is flying me into the ground, I will use the best tools I can find to try to get through that door. If I have no tool better than my shoulder (or a beverage cart), that's what I'll use. Now, if the door looked like a bank vault door, I wouldn't bother, but they don't look like bank vaults.

What was the alternative? Trying to smash a medical oxygen cylinder through a window to depressurize the cabin? I don't think that would work either. Pounding on the door may have been the least bad option.

[mcloaked]

@No Fly Zone: You say: "To my mind, there is still one critical piece of evidence (in support of the FO's intentional destruction of the aircraft) that I have not seen; some reasonable proof that Lubitz was awake/alert during the last 8-10 minutes of the flight. Some evidence may have been offered, but I have not yet seen it. "

Is the data from the transponder returns showing SEL ALT changing from FL380 to 96 feet whilst the captain was out of the flight deck not indicative of deliberate action on behalf of the only occupant of the locked flight deck? It seems that this data was passed to BEA on the day of the accident so likely included in the assessment of what happened?

[kendoc]

what did the Mirage pilot see?

He would have come close enough to look into the cockpit. He would have seen enough to know there was no explosive decompression. Perhaps he saw a single pilot and which seat he was in, perhaps looking back at him, it would after all be hard not to stare at a fighter jet moving in close.

whether he saw and what he saw we don't know yet but the authorities do. Reports are filed, film watched. Perhaps this is corroborating what they are hearing on the CVR and giving additional ability to conclude what they are concluding. Perhaps....

[AirScotia]

Why would anyone - breathing normally - use 8 minutes to commit suicide?

Someone who has embarked on a suicidal path often feels a sense of peace - they're no longer going to have to deal with the constant emotional pain.

[MG23]

As others have said I am not convinced two in the cockpit at all times will ultimately be a solution. Using that theory it means bringing in a cabin crew member while one pilot visits the bathroom who will most likely have no idea how to fly an aircraft, all it would take is for the remaining handling pilot to quickly shut off the engines and or electrics and announce you have control while the person who left the flight is locked out.

All security is a tradeoff. The locking doors, for example, were a tradeoff between crazy pilots breaking into the cockpit to crash the plane and crazy pilots already in the cockpit deciding to crash the plane; the expectation being that the former was far more likely than the latter. There's no 'solution', only ways to reduce the risk of something bad happening.

Having two people in the cockpit at all times further reduces that risk, but clearly won't eliminate it. Nothing can remove all risk at all times.

[F-16GUY]

Not sure if this question has been raised, but I am wondering why a civilian prosecutor at this early stage have access to the CVR recording, and furthermore, why is he willing to tell the public about what the CVR contains?

I was of the impression that the CVR is BEA property until the investigation is completed, and that first thereafter a civilian prosecutor can have access to the information, and if needed raise a criminal case against someone.

Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses (BEA) - English Homepage (http://www.bea.aero/en/)

I was of the impression that there was waterproof doors between the safety investigation and the criminal investigation. Anyone cares to explain?

[PAXboy]

Speaking as one who has dealt with families bereaved by suicide for over 23 years so, briefly ... There is no 'normal'. It is often the case that once a person has made the choice of suicide - they appear much happier and calmer. Families say, "Ten days ago, we thought he'd turned a corner as he was getting back to his usual cheerful self and then ..." I recall one man who visited his parents for the weekend, cleaned the house and mowed the lawn and then hung himself.

Suicide is outside our expectations and so 99.9% of people are not looking for it and do not see it coming. When they look back at the recent months? Then they can see the path leading to it but it was not visible before.

If this is suicide, could the person have been waiting a week (or more) for the correct opportunity? Yes.

[Pace]

Someone who has embarked on a suicidal path often feels a sense of peace - they're no longer going to have to deal with the constant emotional pain.

AirScotia

The prosecutor has discounted suicide

[No Fly Zone]

I don't do Airbus and I know nearly nothing about its systems beyond the idea that it generates tons of data and that a Digital FDR can capture up to 1300 discrete measures. A good FDR will obviously capture important flight deck actions such as side stick movements, button pushes and the like. What I'd like to know:
1. Does the A320's D-FDR record door lock and door control actions?
2. If the D-FDR's recording media (a chip?) is not present, does this generate any kind of flight deck alarm or ECAS event?
3. Is a defective/alarmed/INOP D-FDR a MEL-able item; if so, for how long?
4. I'm just asking, NOT suggesting- how long would it take an experienced individual to reach the D-FDR and if possible, can the recording media be removed without generating ECAS alarms.

If, I repeat - IF the D-FDR was INOP and so recognized by the crew prior departure, I wonder if any discussion of same was captured by the CVR.

Lastly, the accident A320 was an older edition airframe and may have been equipped with an earlier generation, less capable FDR. Does anyone know - for certain, what was flying on this airplane?

I refuse to speculate, but will ask questions. Accurate answers to these questions are necessary before I can hope to understand WTF happened on Tuesday. For all lost, including the FO, RIP. -NFZ:sad:

[Dadlani]

German Pilots Cast Doubt on Blaming of Co-Pilot for Crash : Germanwings: Pilots Cast Doubt on Blaming of Co-Pilot for Crash (http://time.com/3760283/germanwings-german-pilots-association/)

[olasek]

why is he willing to tell the public about what the CVR contains?
the info has already been leaked.

[Dingo63]

Also, how close was the Frenchy AF to intercept? They'll likely not release that info for security reasons, but surely they would have to be considering a 9.11 type incident and protocol for a shoot down. And... how close to that decision were they?

[The Shovel]

If the keypad is used to enter the flight deck, the door WILL OPEN after a predetermined time 5-30sec UNLESS someone physically LOCKS the door from INSIDE the cabin.
If the F/O was simply incapacitated, then this tragedy would in all probability not have happened.

[vanHorck]

The prosecutor has not discounted suicide. He did not want to call it suicide and even added that one reason for not wanting to call it suicide was that the FO took another 149 people with him. He was keeping his options open.

We do not know yet if it was suicide in the sense of someone so desperate he only thinks and succeeds in taking his own life. But he is dead and so are 149 others.

[FlapsSlats]

I flew the A320 out of LHR for 10 years for a major UK carrier.

I was always amazed at the efficiency of a crew – two pilots operating closely together, perhaps for the first time. There was one time before 9/11 when an interested passenger joined us on the flight deck and after a while asked us how long we'd flown together? He was astonished at my reply that this was the first time. This was a testament to the quality of training in my airline.

Importantly, we'd both come from a variety of immediate backgrounds i.e. staid family life, or bust-up with a girl friend, or major financial worries, yet we always – without fail – slotted into our roles as pilots and part of a responsible team.

Consider all other methods of transport – trains, busses – only one person in control. Then ships – many – but the Captain has overall authority (Costa Concordia). Large passenger aircraft always have TWO pilots – until one leaves the flight deck.

There's the weak link!...

[KarlADrage]

AirScotia

The prosecutor has discounted suicide
Was the point that he was making not that when you decide to take 149 innocent souls with you that "suicide" does not cover the act that you have perpetrated rather than anything else?

[Coagie]

I would like to know what medications the co-pilot was taking. For instance, was the co-pilot trying to quit smoking? One of the published side effects of the anti-smoking drug Chantix is "Suicidal thoughts or actions" (Also stated is their television advertisements). Some of the modern anti-depressants, such as Prozac can cause people to become both homicidal and suicidal. My main source is my father, a Pharmacist with over 60 years experience dispensing psychotropic drugs. Unfortunately in this case individual "Privacy" may trump public health. When a mass murder happens here in the USA, even when the killer is a known paranoid schizophrenic, what medications they were taking at the time of the mass murder, are never published, because of privacy (or drug company lobbyists), so whatever medications involved escape the further scrutiny they deserve.

[vanHorck]

Good comments from IFALPA.

The current mess of early conclusions is due to the French senior military divulging strictly confidential information to NYT. It led to unavoidable scrambling by the investigators to come out with a statement. The French prosecutor was much more cautious then he is now alleged to have been, probably never knew what hit him. He was also being naive to the point of being willing to speak in English, a language he does not speak well at all.

But it is what it is, the ghost is out of the bottle.



"The International Federal of Airline Pilots Associations, or IFALPA, condemned the leaks of the cockpit voice recorder or CVR on Thurdsay, saying that it violated long-established practices after plane crashes, where details are kept confidential until the investigation is complete. “Leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and general public and discourage cooperation with investigators in future accidents,” said a statement from the Montreal-based organization. “The sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators… not to apportion blame.”

[anengineer]

Just wondering why in this day and age there aren't video cameras on the flightdeck ? HD cameras and digital storage that can store weeks of video cost pennies. We shouldn't have to be relying on people trying to work out what's going on from audio alone.

I wonder if this post will survive.... :hmm:

[Lonewolf_50]

anengineer:
1. Camera would not have stopped this tragic loss of life.
2. I don't see the point of your question.
Based on what a great many airline pilots report, some of whom are friends of mine for decades, the cultural relationship between management and workforce in airlines is already toxic, or close to it.

What you suggest would make that set of working condition worses, not better.

Mods, if this line of discussion belongs in another thread, please move us and it.

[EEngr]

not convinced two in the cockpit at all times will ultimately be a solution. Using that theory it means bringing in a cabin crew member while one pilot visits the bathroom who will most likely have no idea how to fly an aircraft,All the cabin crew need to know is how to operate the unlock switch.

[vanHorck]

No need to fear for your post.

The reason no video is for privacy.

The VCR and FDR are there to help the investigators find the cause so the industry may learn, yet the civil prosecutor has access at least in this case and draws conclusions based on them

So this disaster is a direct justification why not (yet) a video recording.

But one day it will come there is no doubt

[SauvignonBlanc]

Just wondering why in this day and age there aren't video cameras on the flightdeck ? HD cameras and digital storage that can store weeks of video cost pennies. We shouldn't have to be relying on people trying to work out what's going on from audio alone.

Two issues:

1. Concerns about privacy and employers monitoring crew performance (union stuff)

2. A GoPro and a 256GB SD card indeed are not very expensive, but I doubt it will survive a 300+ kts crash

But you're right that the technology does seem a bit outdated. Why no redundancy in flight recorders for example? Both record cockpit ánd flight data so only one needs to survive and be found. Or why no Real time flight data transfer and storage to outside the A/C?

[weebobby]

The autopilot on the Germanwings Airbus A320 that crashed in the French Alps on Tuesday was switched to descend to 100 feet, its lowest possible setting, before it began its fatal plunge, according to data from a specialist aviation tracking service, Reuters reported.

Online web tracking service FlightRadar24 said its analysis of satellite tracking data had found that someone had changed the altitude to the minimum setting possible of 100 feet: well below the crash site lying at about 6,000 feet.
"Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 you can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the 'open descent' autopilot setting," Fredrik Lindahl, chief executive of the Swedish tracking service said by email.

He said FlightRadar24 had shared its data with French crash investigators at their request.

[c53204]

Surely if any FD crew want to down an aircraft they would be able to do it. With the knowledge they have, opportunities and access to a/c systems what is to stop them?

[oldoberon]

There has been a contradiction on the mental make up of the FO by the prosecutor who has also dispelled suicide.
A lot of posts have referred to the young pilot poor employment and conditions driving him to take his life and everyone else.

The fact that the prosecutor has dispelled suicide isn't as stupid as it sounds
The prosecutor discussed that when they got to the landing briefing the FO became very kurt in his responses.

There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND

It is more likely seeing the prosecutors comments re suicide that the Captain triggered something in the FOs mind where he lost the plot.
He probably didn't even consider his own imminent death or the PAX but satisfying his rage against the Captain by crashing the aircraft.

Don't presume its some poor lad with lifes woes on his shoulders trying to kill himself this is something else and probably goes way back into his childhood

Spot on, and better fit with the one report where a german paper/magazine asked the CEO if he has anything on the "event" on the outbound leg, which they claim to have evidence of.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Well blame the authorities for this situation, it was not that long ago when they more or less scrapped the self improver route, (PPL, Instructor, CPL, Turboprop, 1500 hours later ATPL and maybe the right seat of a jet) in the UK in favour of young button pushing wannabes coming out with a licence after 200 hours !!!!!

... a change required due to the unprecedented demand for pilots caused by the growth of the the low cost carriers in the 90s and early 2000s - not for the best, in my opinion.

I read something a while back about people with 'suicidal tendencies'. At least according to the article, it is quite common that when someone becomes suicidal, they do not consider the consequences of their action on other people. It's not that they don't care that other people may die, the thought that they could be killing other people never even occurs to them. Hence the person who turns their car into oncoming traffic never even thinks about the possibility that people in the car they collide with may be seriously hurt or killed.
Rather scary if true, but it would help explain things.

Well all the professionals I have ever talked to would agree with that. A person in a suicidal state has no conscience and it becomes the ultimate selfish act.

Imagine knowing that there were young children and babies on board and yet still carrying out that action ... it's incomprehensible to anyone with any conscience and thought for his fellow man.

[fearless195]

Looking at the findings of the Long Island A300 crash regarding separation of the vert stab due to rudder over deflection from a faulty actuator, surely all that stands between us and disaster is a swift right kick on the pedals...

Like most reactive responses to safety and security from knee jerk US-led mono cultural organisations, strengthened cockpit doors and granular inspections of 100ml bottles of shampoo are nothing to do with real safety - they're about the patronising reassurance of passengers assumed to be too thick to understand the futility of these charades, and the interests of companies who sell 'security solutions' to aid the official window dressing.

Let's face it, in a world of ever cheaper fares and screwed-down salary structures, passengers get treated like prisoners on remand and aircrew like jailers with trays. Where's the dignity in that?

If the FO had OD'd himself into oblivion during descent, it's all over rover and the cockpit 'security' door spelt doom for all. Not at all reassuring.

[TERRIER two]

In light of the Delta Incident when the captain was locked out inadvertently and unable to get access back into the cockpit with the code or with the help of the cooperative FO due to a door MALFUNCTION. It is not correct to say that the only explanation for the Captain not being able to gain access is malicious intent on the part of the FO.

The door could have jammed at a time when something was going wrong and the FO was busy trying to handle it. The commanded descent may have been just an attempt to solve a problem we don't know about. The FO fairly inexperienced could have been confronted with something he couldn't handle and froze.

[DirtyProp]

@ DirtyProp - agreed, but costs are being driven down by the lowest common denominator LCCs , the question is are the regulators giving too much free reign which is putting too much financial strain on all carriers?LCCs exist because they fill a market's need.
People want to go places, and they want to go there cheap and fast. These are the 2 main considerations. Ultimately the market decides, and if businesses want to survive they have to follow, or else.
The regulators are interested in one thing only: their job. As such they will give the public what they want: more regulations.

[Pace]

KarlADrage

He discounted suicide i.e. attempting to take his own life regardless of the 150 others going with him.
He also mentioned that from the tapes from being a friendly chat that in the approach and landing briefing the FOs responses became very kurt.
We all know of a condition on our roads called road rage! A year ago a Van driver drove straight into a bridge at 60 mph while experiencing road rage and injuring himself badly he wasn't trying to kill himself but venting his anger seeing RED into the bridge.
Yes he may have been stressed out and maybe some criticism or authoritative or demeaning tone instilled an uncontrollable anger in the FO who when left to his own devices vented that anger into a mountainside.
I do not suppose that his imminent death or the PAX even entered his head only venting an uncontrollable anger against the Captain.
We have seen that with cars mounting pavements and taking out innocent people the driver being in a blind internal rage and seeing nothing but red.
don't presume this is as simple as a poor young guy suffering with depression deciding to end it all I think reading between the lines this is what the prosecutor was hinting at
Someone mentioned he took time out with stress some people in those sort of situations have anger management problems an that anger flares up too quickly and is uncontrollable

[Sailvi767]

Everyone is missing the point of having two in the cockpit. In the US it is required to visually confirm who is entering the cockpit and control the door at all times. The second person is there to visually check the person entering and immediately close the door if open and someone moves near the door. The lessons of 911 never really hit home in the rest if the world. It's a smart policy.
It has absolutely nothing to do with having someone up there to watch the remaining pilot.

[DirtyProp]

I was always amazed at the efficiency of a crew – two pilots operating closely together, perhaps for the first time. There was one time before 9/11 when an interested passenger joined us on the flight deck and after a while asked us how long we'd flown together? He was astonished at my reply that this was the first time. This was a testament to the quality of training in my airline.

Importantly, we'd both come from a variety of immediate backgrounds i.e. staid family life, or bust-up with a girl friend, or major financial worries, yet we always – without fail – slotted into our roles as pilots and part of a responsible team.In my view, that's what being a professional is all about.
Thank you for this post.

[abdunbar]

suninmyeyes;
It would be nice if this accident highlighted to the various aviation authorities the utter futility of making pilots go through airport security and have bottles of water removed etc. I am not saying all airport security for pilots should be removed but to impose the same restrictions on pilots as for passengers is clearly inappropriate. The present security restrictions can have an adverse effect on safety when it results in flight crew being heckled for queue jumping and results in them arriving at the aircraft late, frustrated and in a harassed frame of mind.

even the heightened security we have is less effective specifically because of exceptions like you suggest. If you had an exception to bypass security it would become known. You would then be a target to be exploited. You could be approached and told do this or else.

[NWA SLF]

Wednesday morning I was reading numerous posts about a conspiracy because there had been time to analyze the CVR data and nothing had yet been released. Surely they had time to listen and come to an immediate conclusion and publish. That may have partly been a result of the recent Taiwan crash where the CVR info condeming the pilots was released almost before the aircraft, under water, was recovered. So the analyzed info was released - how intentional its initial release is certainly suspect but it was released and many are saying it was too soon, before everything could be completely analyzed. I can understand an early release. People were bashing Airbus. Passengers were worrying. MY Boeing and GE stocks were falling. The reality is that most of the flying public has no idea what type of plane they are flying. Public learning the crash apparently resulted from a pilot with a death wish eases their mind about getting on their next flight versus "airliner crashes killing 150, cause unknown."

[ChissayLuke]

I, for one, am grateful to whomsoever for whatever 'leaks' may have occured here.
There appear to be some simple facts which led to this dreadful crash/mass murder, depending upon your point of view.

It seems to be the case that an individual, a highly trained and assessed professional, alone on a flight deck, can perpetrate this kind of activity.
Whatever his motive and or motivations may have been.

The travelling public, who by definition, have to place their lives, and trust, into the hands of an airline and flight deck crew, need to be aware of the risk they are taking when boarding a simple point to point flight.
Infinitessamal, perhaps. But this incident demonstrates that such risk exists.

Shoot me down, in a metaphorical sense, or moderators remove this post as you will.

[DaveReidUK]

German Pilots Cast Doubt on Blaming of Co-Pilot for Crash : Germanwings: Pilots Cast Doubt on Blaming of Co-Pilot for Crash (http://time.com/3760283/germanwings-german-pilots-association/)

Slightly worrying that German Pilots Association's International Affairs Director doesn't seem to have a clue about how the A320's cockpit access works, or that use of the emergency code can be disabled from the flight deck.

Granted, he flies 737s (for Air Berlin), but a little more research before opening his mouth might have been wise.

[NigelOnDraft]

Everyone is missing the point of having two in the cockpit. In the US it is required to visually confirm who is entering the cockpit and control the door at all times. The second person is there to visually check the person entering and immediately close the door if open and someone moves near the door. The lessons of 911 never really hit home in the rest if the world. It's a smart policy.
It has absolutely nothing to do with having someone up there to watch the remaining pilot. I am sure airlines and countries / regions vary.

The systems fitted to our aircraft cover your requirements I have underlined. If these systems are mot available, then we use a second person as you suggest.

If we have these systems and require a second person, then the second person can only be there to "baby" the remaining pilot. Or for political / PR reasons :(

And this adds another dimension to the issue:A JetBlue flight bound for Las Vegas had to make an emergency landing in Texas in March 2012. The co-pilot locked the captain out of the cockpit as the latter was behaving erratically. The captain then had to be wrestled to the ground by passengers.

[gulfairs]

Men or women who have gone thru an ugly divorce/separation are most at risk for being temporarily unstable.
my airline made a policy if asked for time out because of serious domestic problems put the individual on sick leave for as long as six months .
I was told to go away and don't come back until I had got all my :mad: together and then I was allowed back on duty.
Maybe they should be looking at the copilots domestic scene.

[anengineer]

Interesting point Victor Tango. I'm not convinced that this is a simple as it's being made out to be.

As for the logic behind wanting video in the cockpit, Lone Wolf; no, that would not have stopped this tragedy, but it would certainly have helped unpick what happened. It could have been seen whether the FO did alter the altitude dial - or indeed whether he was even conscious. SauvignonBlanc; Obviously the storage would have to be inside the FDR :rolleyes:

As a passenger, I couldn't care less whether pilots are upset by a 'lack of privacy'. Privacy ?? What on Earth do pilots need privacy for on the flight deck ???? If you are in total control of my life and that of my family, being as you are, in command of a metal tube six miles up in the sky, hurtling along at 500mph, I want everything you do visible, checked, cross-checked and scrutinised. Privacy is not an option.

[jehrler]

Slats11

Unfortunately people quickly adapt to mitigate new security measures.

Hijacking / terrorism used to be about getting a gun (or bomb) onto a plane. So we Increased airport security and made that increasingly difficult.

9/11 was about getting a few people with some flying skills onto the plane. So we fitted toughened doors prevent unauthorised access.

The threat now is the mindset and ideology of the pilot sitting forward of these toughened doors. After MH370 and this latest incident, that threat is going to require some thought.

No that isn't quite correct. Prior to 9/11 it was the SOP to cooperate with hijackers on the assumption that they were not suicidal but seeking monetary or political "income"

That changed forever on 9/11 (even during the event) which is why the concern over nail clippers and secure doors has been misplaced. Under the new protocol the entire plane load of passengers is an "army" that can be activated to aid in overcoming the "invaders" (unless the plane is loaded mostly with invaders).

Having a secure door is a good idea but not one that can't let the crew in. It has neutralized the entire "army" on the plane concept as we seem to be seeing in this incident.

Changing the protocol in and of itself neutralized much of the on board threat (assuming TSA does a reasonable job).

[oldoberon]

tells us no more than we knew from here.

If one or both incapacitated entry possible , if a single pilot or both together don't want anyone to get, they won't get in.

[Lonewolf_50]

Nigel makes an interesting point:
In the Jet Blue case in 2012, the lock/security features help keep the mentally unwell pilot out of the cockpit. If the story on this GW A320 remains as it appears right now, it's the inverse of that event.

@ anengineer: I think we need to agree to disagree, as I don't see it through the same lens as you do. What you wrote there tells me that you don't (in a general sense) trust a given flight deck crew. If you don't think you can, then I suggest you arrange other means of transport. My grandfather never once set foot on an airplane. He would travel by train to visit us.
My grandmother would fly to see us. (1960's).

[emjanssen]

What happened to ICAO annex 13?

http://www.icao.int/safety/ism/ICAO%20Annexes/Annex%2013.pdf

Why is the French Prosecutor releasing CVR data?
Isn't this a violation of ICAO Annex 13?

How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?

Many critical questions to be asked.
Speculation is not good for the official investigation.

[fastjet45]

anengineer
As a passenger, I couldn't care less whether pilots are upset by a 'lack of privacy'. Privacy ?? What on Earth do pilots need privacy for on the flight deck ???? If you are in total control of my life and that of my family, being as you are, in command of a metal tube six miles up in the sky, hurtling along at 500mph, I want everything you do visible, checked, cross-checked and scrutinised. Privacy is not an option.


In all walks of life you have a choice, you don't have to fly, get on a bus, train or any other form of public transport how would you feel being videoed doing your job ? there has to be a level of trust in everything we do.

[RobertS975]

OK, is anyone else surprised by the fact that the co-pilot only had 630 hrs TT?
In the US, one could not qualify for an ATP license with so few hours.

[OPENDOOR]

Like most reactive responses to safety and security from knee jerk US-led mono cultural organisations, strengthened cockpit doors and granular inspections of 100ml bottles of shampoo are nothing to do with real safety - they're about the patronising reassurance of passengers assumed to be too thick to understand the futility of these charades, and the interests of companies who sell 'security solutions' to aid the official window dressing.

Let's face it, in a world of ever cheaper fares and screwed-down salary structures, passengers get treated like prisoners on remand and aircrew like jailers with trays. Where's the dignity in that?

Superb :D:D:D

[truckflyer]

I know a story of a guy during line training, around 120 hours, and captain left cockpit for toilet break!
The guy freaked out during his time alone in the cockpit.
I find it disturbing that the French prosecutor have come with so much, yet incomplete information.

I would think a full investigation should be completed first.

Please correct me if there is something I may have missed.
They claim the captain is heard knocking on the door, there is no mention if he attempted to enter the emergency door entry code!

If this was not entered or remembered, or entered incorrectly, then this blame on the FO is pre-mature!

There however unlikely it seems might have been some incident, maybe even a minor one, overspeed, accidentally doing something but becoming startled or incapacitated!

Maybe in the stress locked the door instead of opening it!

I have a strong feeling that this story still has a few more twists and turns, I don't feel this story adds up.

The emergency door entry code tone would be heard on the cvr, as you have a limited time to enter, however as far as I can see nothing has been mentioned about this.

[FlapsSlats]

Flying my A320 in and out of LHR I knew – and accepted – that my every move was recorded.

There was one time when, due to an expeditious arrival at LHR (i.e. no Holding, but straight in from an embarrassing height and speed), I slightly exceeded a maximum flap deployment speed in my effort to get rid of speed and height. I knew I'd done it. I also knew that it would inevitably be highlighted in the download of the aircraft's day's flying. The only method of defence was 'attack'. And that was to phone the Training Captain in charge of the Flight Safety department as soon as I'd landed and confess that I'd had "a problem".

Honesty was always the best option because you'll be found out anyway.

The important point is, I had absolutely no difficulty with the fact that that my every move was recorded. This was invaluable in building up a picture of each pilot's performance – and identifying which airports regularly presented difficulties for arriving pilots. Nice was a prime example.

There are some areas in life where we operate very much in the public domain and are publicly accountable – and with good reason.

I know this doesn't add much to the extremely sad scenario of GW 4U9525, but I do want to highlight the degree to which pilots are – and need to be – publicly accountable for every action when airborne.

[Odysseus]

As a frequent passenger, and a frequent reader of this forum (I don't usually post because I have only minimal aviation experience at the most basic PPL level), I agree.

Professional airline pilots have a capability to change thousands of lives by such an action and in my travelling lifetime, there have been at least four such incidents that I know of.

I appreciate that the professionals may not like to be on constant video recorders in the cockpit, but then, many other professionals are... Surgeons have their operations recorded, most of us are in workplaces where cameras are switched on during our duties...

And I would have thought that professional pilots themselves would much prefer to know what happened in the cockpit during these occasions rather than have to speculate with the rest of us.

No offence intended but we farepaying passengers value our survival above the right to privacy that some on the board espouse. With respect, I can't trust the fact that a pilot locked behind an unbreachable door can ruin 1000 lives without even the ability to find out what happened in real-time.

[condorbaaz]

i don't know what happened to my previous post so here again
Is the system of safety pilots during initial line training to cover incapacitation of pic or to be in flt deft when the pic or trainer leaves for physiological breaks?

[too_much]

630 hours is low but no unusual for Europe Ryanair European largest airline has co-pilots flying there jets with much less hours than 630.

[cosmick251]

... "benefits" of the MPL ... instead of an ATPL

[RexBanner]

Condorbaaz it's nothing to do with either. It's simply there because in the initial stages of line training there is so little spare capacity in the RHS that the LHS is very often flying as single pilot and needs all the help he can get.

[giggitygiggity]

How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?

Air Traffic Control can see whatever altitude is set in the window from the ground (Mode-S?) and apparently, they would have seen it changed from 38,000ft (the cleared altitude) to 100ft.

My understanding anyway, if an ATCO want's to clear that up, be my guest.

[Flightmech]

I know a story of a guy during line training, around 120 hours, and captain left cockpit for toilet break!
The guy freaked out during his time alone in the cockpit.
I find it disturbing that the French prosecutor have come with so much, yet incomplete information.

I would think a full investigation should be completed first.

Please correct me if there is something I may have missed.
They claim the captain is heard knocking on the door, there is no mention if he attempted to enter the emergency door entry code!

If this was not entered or remembered, or entered incorrectly, then this blame on the FO is pre-mature!

There however unlikely it seems might have been some incident, maybe even a minor one, overspeed, accidentally doing something but becoming startled or incapacitated!

Maybe in the stress locked the door instead of opening it!

I have a strong feeling that this story still has a few more twists and turns, I don't feel this story adds up.

The emergency door entry code tone would be heard on the cvr, as you have a limited time to enter, however as far as I can see nothing has been mentioned about this.

It doesn't matter what code you enter if the deadbolt has been used from the inside, you ain't getting in.
In our operation, if the IRCD locking system is defective it can be deferred per the MEL as long as the cockpit side deadbolt is operational and used. Again, you ain't getting in.

[ztocko]

The initiator of an extended suicide is often a person suffering from endogenous depression, meaning that it´s a spontaneous act in the ongoing mental illness. The motivation behind the suicide is often to escape from hard living conditions. Please notice that the studies in this field has been done on men who kills their family and then commit suicide. The generalizability from that area to the flight industry I leave unsaid.

[liam548]

RobertS975

Join Date: May 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 269
OK, is anyone else surprised by the fact that the co-pilot only had 630 hrs TT?
In the US, one could not qualify for an ATP license with so few hours.




What has the number of hours the first officer had got to do with this outcome? If what we are told is correct this incident is not due to lack of skill or knowledge.

It could equally have been a captain with 20000 hours, this is a medical/policy issue not a total number of hours issue.

[zeddb]

RobertS975

Join Date: May 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 269
OK, is anyone else surprised by the fact that the co-pilot only had 630 hrs TT?
In the US, one could not qualify for an ATP license with so few hours.


It's a consequence of the pay to fly culture that has taken root in Europe. Airlines, especially budget airlines, will not recruit anyone with experience preferring so called cadets out of whom they make money. Hence we get co pilots with less than the hours required to get a U.S. licence flying passenger jets., up to now the public have not given a stuff as they only want cheap tickets. This will hopefully change but I'm not holding my breath. With 600 hours I and most of my peers were flying turboprops under close supervision and knew just enough to realise what we did not know.

We reap what we sow.

[theonesaint]

how things work in the cockpit. Nonetheless I have a wife who's afraid of flying and I started reading on this forum after she´s freaking out a bit as she was completely confident of Lufthansa and subsidiaries.

Suicide or murder, whatever you want to call it what the FO apparently did, I´m puzzled about the following things, and maybe someone here has an answer for me.

The French state prosecutor talked about:
- Normal knocks on the door.
- After that, strong knocks on the door.
- After that, the captain trying to break in the door.

He did not mention the cockpit alarms emerging when the emergency door code was entered on the outside keypad? (I´ve seen the youtube video on the door mechanism).

Why did he mention sounds of "normal breathing", but not of door opening alarms in the cockpit?

Did the pilot (or cabin crew) therefore really use the correct emergency procedure to get into the cockpit?

Furthermore:

- If the FO becomes unconscious (for whatever reason), you continue to breath normally. To me it´s not a bullet-proof explanation that the FO did it intentionally.

I´m the last to read into conspiracy theories, but it´s not 100% clear to me and would like to try to understand.

[skysod]

I can't believe that the First Officer has been accused, charged, tried and convicted, and we don't yet have the FDR to be sure of the sequence of events or exactly what happened and why!