Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

[weebobby]

I am just hearing reports - will update when further news

Barcelona GermanWings to Duselldorf

[greenspinner]

Apparently a A320 germanwing down next to Digne south French Alps

[weebobby]

142 pax plus 2 pilots plus 4 crew

made it onto Sky News now

[gpsavd]

L'actualité politique, OM, sorties, sports à Marseille, Aix, Avignon, Vaucluse et Alpes : La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/) main page

[atakacs]

Bad news indeed... Any unusual weather in the area?

[flt001]

Flight: GWI16G BCN-DUS

VS -3500fpm when lost off FR and that was pretty constant all the way from cruise.

[me myself and fly]

D-AIPX - Germanwings - Aircraft info and flight history - Flightradar24 (http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/d-aipx/#5d42675)

[BeT]

GWI 18G

D-AIPX

ex-DLH airframe.

[weebobby]

Is that the normal route to go so far to the right?

D-AIPX - Germanwings - Aircraft info and flight history - Flightradar24 (http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/d-aipx/#5d42675)

[BeT]

Yes, that was the filed route from the CFMU profile.

[HeathrowAirport]

Helicopters have seen debris in area. According to reports.

[ionagh]

Reports of a mayday call at 10:47
No special weather just intermittant showers.

[weebobby]

Challenging terrain for recovery

[Nemrytter]

VS -3500fpm when lost off FR and that was pretty constant all the way from cruise.
FR24 tends to fudge the data. Descent rate from cruise alt varied from -5000fpm to -2500fpm. Higher descent rate at higher altitude.

[Heathrow Harry]

waether radar shows some rain in W Switzerland/E France but nothing exceptional at all

[HeathrowAirport]

Built 1990. 24.3 years old.

[alserire]

Airliners Fleet states MSN887


Can you explain that for us non professionals?

[Squawk_ident]

The aircraft is reported crashed near the "Méolans-Revel" village at about 2400m height, near Barcelonnette town
French President has announced that there is no survivors.
Debris have been found.
Very difficult access area.

[R04stb33f]

Some more info (in French) - from "l'Express" updated live...

here (http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/fait-divers/en-direct-crash-d-un-avion-a320-dans-la-region-de-digne_1664367.html)

[demomonkey]

MSN - Manufacturers Serial Number. This was the 147h A320 manufactured. Equivalent to chassis number in car. Not really that significant information as age of airliner has been published already. However it is probably one of the older A320s still flying. Operator has excellent safety record though and all commercial aircraft are stripped back to basics every 4 years and rebuilt.

[Aireps]

FR24 showing GWI18G cruising at FL380. When reaching the French southcoast, it started descending with about 2000 - 3500 fpm.

http://s17.postimg.org/qa3vrm0n3/24_03_2015_GWI18_G.jpg

[ECAM_Actions]

1047hrs

That must be local time (0947z).

[ChiefT]

Of course way too early for any thoughts about the cause, but it reminds me about the incident in November 2014 with an LH A321, which surprisely descended because of a faulty sensors.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=171411

"During climb, 12 NM NW of Pamplona, at approximately Flight Level 310, the aircraft unexpectedly decreased the pitch autonomous and started to descend. The aircraft reached a rate of descent of up to 4,000 ft/min. The crew was able to stop the descent at Flight Level 270."

[jxf63]

I know every accident is different, and there is always a risk of confirmation bias in these things, but did anyone else have a similar reaction to me on first hearing the news:

"Another Airbus down?"

Very bad all round :(

[tehoa]

webcam from Barcelonette, nice weather...

Webcam de Barcelonnette, Pra Loup, Le Sauze (http://www.ubaye.com/webcams-barcelonnette-praloup-sauze-enchastrayes-uvernet-fours-golf-aerodrome.html)

[Heathrow Harry]

there are a lot of them around - these days it's 50-50 if it's an Airbus or a Boeing

What is worrying about this one is that it is in W. Europe operated by a decent company flying in daylight

But let's break the habit of a lifetime & wait for a few more facts

[mixture]

I cannot remember the last air crash like this in Western Europe. Can anyone shed light on the last accident like this in Europe?

Seriously ? :ugh::ugh:

It just so happens that this aircraft was manufactured by Airbus.
It just so happens the aircraft was flying in Europe at the time the incident.

So what's the point of people saying things like "not another Airbus" or "I cannot remember another crash like this in Europe".

Its far too early to jump to conclusions about manufacturer or geographic location !

[weebobby]

a short distress call at 10.47 and sky news reporting it was made at 6800 feet......

tho take with a pinch of salt as they did just say 24 knots as being full speed

[Squawk_ident]

Aircraft was in the France/Marseille FIR
Marseille ATC issued a called asking some pilots in the vicinity to look around.
A French commercial pilot that was flying a private aircraft at that time explained "France info" radio that he received this call but the region is very mountainous and he could not see anything.

[Zoso]

No weather in the area to consider, and doubtful it would have anything to due with frozen angle of attack probes, as the aircraft would have been at cruise altitude for a while.

[sp3ctre]

Considering there was a mayday I guess there is a chance they already have an idea what happened. I know they have to run an investigation and find the black box etc, but how long usually before they release the content of the distress call?

[mixture]

Speculations are going to take over the discussion, but among the possibilities

Don't encourage speculation by listing possibilities then ! :ugh:

If you want speculation and enumeration of possibilities, go watch the journalists on TV making another hash out of aviation reporting.

Can we please, for once, show some restraint on PPRuNe, and a little bit less of armchair investigators racing to be the first one to name what is later found to be the cause.

Remember, journalists read PPRune ... so let's not feed the devil nonsense that they will then regurgitate as "facts" from "reliable sources".

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Considering there was a mayday (...)

This has to be established first.
- the quote from the DGAC that can easily mean DETRESFA and not Mayday (*)
- the time: loss of ADS-B @ 9:41, Mayday improbable 6 minutes later considering the relief of the region and the previous RoD.

(*) "Le vol s'est déclaré en état de détresse à 10 h 47 locale": suffice to replace by "Le vol a été déclaré en état de détresse à 10 h 47 locale" and you got from Mayday to DETRESFA.
In english, that's the fight declared itself in distress vs the flight was declared in distress [by the ATC services?].

[ACMS]

Just been listening to some x USAF General that flew 111's and F16's over the Alps.......where do they get these guys from? They know NOTHING.


What I can see so far:--

1/ no 7700 set
2/ normal elec power before crash
3/ 374 kts ground speed at 6,800'......meaning about 320 KIAS, not unusual
4/ 3,000 fpm descent rate, what you'd expect for 320 Kts with speed brake

This to me appears to be an explosive decompression event that the crew handled initially but somehow later became incapacitated and the Aircraft simply flew into the mountains.

[Geotracker]

UPDATE:

According on live french news channel France24, a DGAC spokesm said there was NO emergency call from the cockpit, they speak about a DETRESFA which means aircraft dissapeared suddenly from radar and lost comunication. The ATC launched the DETRESFA for finding the plane. The place seems difficult accesible only via helicopters. It's also reported that the black boxes are retrieved. The DGAC and France24 talks about a possible lost of control of aircraft.


Waiting for more news...

[ionagh]

Reports now that the distress call was made at FL05....

[weebobby]

Sounds like the rate of descent was on a par with that experienced by the LH321 last year from Bilbao....

[demomonkey]

I don't understand why a engine out scenario would be slower? Descents are performed with engines idle. An average of 3,500 fpm seems pretty consistent. If they were using the speed brake as well it might have been more which might suggest they had airframe damage.

Also depressurisation could be a scenario, hypoxia may have prevented them from making fair assessment of the MSA.

All I can say is that I feel very sorry for the people in that situation.

[toffeez]

That's on the ground

[ChiefT]

Of course way too early for any thoughts about the cause, but it reminds me about the incident in November 2014 with an LH A321, which surprisely descended because of faulty sensors.

ASN Aircraft incident 05-NOV-2014 Airbus A321-231 D-AIDP (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=171411)

"During climb, 12 NM NW of Pamplona, at approximately Flight Level 310, the aircraft unexpectedly decreased the pitch autonomous and started to descend. The aircraft reached a rate of descent of up to 4,000 ft/min. The crew was able to stop the descent at Flight Level 270."

[weebobby]

yep ground level in alps is going to be something like 6000 feet

[CSCOT]

Geotracker: "It's also reported that the black boxes are retrieved."

Geotracker, Where was that reported?

That would be remarkably fast wouldn't it - incident happens this morning less than 3 hours ago in a very remote area, and somehow the recorders have been retrieved and that fact reported via media.

[BBernd]

explosive decompression eventWouldn't the crew have called the ATC immediately after such an event?

The airlines webserver https://www.germanwings.com/de.html is currently down too.

[Geotracker]

CSCOT

Yes, that was according French24. A phrase showed up that said black boxes are found but further no information is given. I can't know if it's real or not. We will just all wait in the meantime for further news...

[wiggy]

yep ground level in alps is going to be something like 6000 feet

FWIW according to French TV news/local reports it now seems the main area of interest is at or above 2700 metres (around la tete d'lestrop) members of the "mountain Gendarmes" (they do most of the mountain SAR in France) and other teams are struggling to reach the impact site by ski/ snow shoes, and /or helicopter. There's significant low cloud in the area.

[hwilker]

For those who speak German, here's an example of a more cautious expert at work in the media (Tagesschau, 12.00 MET):

ARD-Luftfahrtexperte Immel: "Flugsicherung wertet Infos jetzt aus" | tagesschau.de (http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/airbus-absturz-101.html)

The anchorwoman tries to draw him into the usual speculation ("is there information on the cause yet?", "is the aircraft type unsafe?"). The interview partner Michael Immel (a journalist with Hessischer Rundfunk) manages, however, to emphasize that it takes very long ("many months") to investigate an accident, that there mostly is no single cause ("chain of events") and that the aircraft type in itself is safe.

[Tank2Engine]

ZeroHedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-24/airbus-a320-carrying-148-crashes-french-alps) has somehow gotten a table of v/s of this flight, link here (http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2015/03/rapid%20descent.jpg).

Notice the extreme -14000 FPM v/s while level at FL380?

Heading also appears to have changed by roughly 15-20 degrees to the left, from just before that -14000 FPM spike until impact.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

UPDATE:

According on live french news channel France24, a DGAC spokesm said there was NO emergency call from the cockpit, they speak about a DETRESFA which means aircraft dissapeared suddenly from radar and lost comunication. The ATC launched the DETRESFA for finding the plane.

Just what I guessed. Thanks!

[Aireps]

Altitude and speed profile taken from FR24:

http://s10.postimg.org/dfjgjhhi1/24_03_2015_GWI18_G_3.jpg

[goeasy]

How can anyone post that.... 14000fpm... Common sense says it has to be garbage! Discrediting the source completely. Why fill this space, and the media with more misinformation like speed 24kts.

Please think before you post?

[Lost in Saigon]

I don't understand why a engine out scenario would be slower? Descents are performed with engines idle. An average of 3,500 fpm seems pretty consistent. If they were using the speed brake as well it might have been more which might suggest they had airframe damage.



I wouldn't expect a descent rate of 3,500 fpm even with a dual engine failure.

[memories of px]

no need to change the squawk if you have one assigned

[rpetersson]

Check the altitude. Its still the same even after the -14000 spike. Im guessing just incorrect radar data.

[Diverskii]

Think it's safe to say -14,000fpm is a glitch

[ACMS]

The 14,000 fpm is a spike possibly caused by the event triggering this crash. Possibly a pressure shock over the static ports?

The Aircraft continued at FL380 for a time after that spike then descended as you'd expect with flight idle and speed brakes extended at VMO.

Somehow the crew became disabled and unable to level off.......

[Geotracker]

UPDATE:

According experts on RTL news, they said that the most propable cause for a crash like this is due to a pressurisation problem, especially when it has been noticed a rapid desent from cruise to around 10.000ft and then stabilising and then for unknown reason it further descended into the terrain...


Waiting more news....

[sitigeltfel]

The French ATC Union SNCTA have cancelled their strike action for 25th,26th,27th March.
http://www.sncta.fr/?wpfb_dl=577

[757_Driver]

Originally Posted by demomonkey View Post
I don't understand why a engine out scenario would be slower? Descents are performed with engines idle. An average of 3,500 fpm seems pretty consistent. If they were using the speed brake as well it might have been more which might suggest they had airframe damage.

Really? Engine out descents are generally done with the remaining engine generating thrust - often Max continous thrust, and are preceded (generally) by a level decel to engine out speed. The descent will be gradual and will taper out at the end. I've no idea of an A320 performance but EO altidude in a 75/76 is generally around the low to mid 20's - certainly enough to level off above the Alps. Nobody in their right mind is going to use a speedbrake for Engine out descents either as it just complicates matters needlessly.
Unlike a decompression there is no urgency in an EO descent

[keesje]

Condolences to all involved :sad:

Without knowing the details,

Hull losses occurring from stable mid-flight situations without human interference seem sparse

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03243/Germanwings-GWI952_3243337b.jpg

Full clarity seems almost guaranteed, because this one went down in a western area with FDR's probably recovered, analyzed and studied within days.

[flyonthewall]

Everyone says the speed brakes were extended. How do you know that?

[Richard101]

If CFMU data I'm looking at is correct (an assumption) then the last reporting point reached was LUSOL and it reported at FL380. The town of Digne is only about 20nm away from LUSOL so an extreme descent rate of -14000fpm might sound silly but would be in line with something catastrophic

[ACMS]

Because 374kts groundspeed and 3,300 fpm descent rate at 7,000' indicate they would have been using some if not all Speedbrake.

[tumtiddle]

Probably extrapolated from the altitude/speed charts above. Over 400kts (presumably ground speed) at <7000ft would suggest a high KIAS. Keeping that up as well as a high ROD would probably need speed brakes.

[nonsense]

How can anyone post that.... 14000fpm... Common sense says it has to be garbage! Discrediting the source completely. Why fill this space, and the media with more misinformation like speed 24kts.

Please think before you post?

I thought 24 knots was a very strange number so I went to the source (http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/d-aipx/#5d42675) and clicked the play button. It rapidly became apparent that 24 knots is at the very start of the flight, while the aircraft is taxiing.

[flyonthewall]

"Because 374kts groundspeed and 3,300 fpm descent rate at 7,000' indicate they would have been using some if not all Speedbrake."

....or some other problem that we don't know about, like a reverser deployed, structural damage, etc, etc.
The descent rate quoted is an averaged one.

Sheesh, everyones an expert...including "Neil Hansford - Aviation EXPERT" currently blabbing on BBC world.

[plikee]

http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=0

Worth to read. May take a while to load the page as the site is congested because of this

[henra]

UPDATE:
According experts on RTL news, they said that the most propable cause for a crash like this is due to a pressurisation problem, especially when it has been noticed a rapid desent from cruise to around 10.000ft and then stabilising and then for unknown reason it further descended into the terrain...


I don't think that is based on any evidence. Probably more by inverse deduction. I.e. the lack of many other conceivable ways how an airliner can fly a rather stable and moderately steep more or less straight trajectory from Cruise level into ground with airspeed in the terminal phase >300kts and constant heading. Lack of communication compounding to this Thesis.


For any solid Facts we will have to wait rather weeks than hours although some pieces of the puzzle might come to light earlier.

[Lon More]

the last reporting point reached was LUSOL and it reported at FL380

Did it make a position report? Very unusual these days especially over an intersection

[jebbo]

Looking at the time stamps (the mtime column), I'm guessing the minimum 'tick' is 10ms (assuming the time from the glitch to the last data point is about 10 minutes).

So looking at that -14,144 @ time 1427189420 and altitude 37900 @ 1427189470 the aircraft looks have lost ~100m in 5 seconds. However, the error bars on that are somewhat unknown, at least to me, although from other entries, ~25m seems to be the resolution

So the glitch may just be an extrapolation of a short duration event to the projected loss over a minute.

[jlsmith]

Aviation journalist Anthony Davis on Sky News raising the question of why airlines don't have live data feeds to satellites.

[akerosid]

Aircraft delivered to Lufthansa in January 1991 and transferred to Germanwings in January 2014 (most of the Germanwings fleet are A319s).

I think it was intended to transfer some or most of this fleet to EuroWings later this year.

Photo: D-AIPX (CN: 147) Lufthansa Airbus A320-211 by John Fitzpatrick Photoid: 7120355 - JetPhotos.Net (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7120355&nseq=18)

[fizz57]

Is 400 knots GS and 3000fpm ROD (4.1 degree slope) consistent with a stall?

[Blind Squirrel]

I know that part of the world. It's extremely rugged, and a lot of the roads, such as they are, will still be impassable for a couple of months because of the depth of snow. I doubt it'll be possible to get anybody near the crash site other than by helicopter.

I agree that French television is awful. I've just seen an interview with an individual, described as a former "airline captain," saying that a multiple birdstrike might have been one of the causes.

[Loud Handle]

Old Haltonian.


I would think the time of useful consciousness at FL400 would be 15-20 seconds after the time the oxygen supply had been interrupted. If it was a "explosive decompression" the time available would be nominal.

[Speed of Sound]

If CFMU data I'm looking at is correct (an assumption) then the last reporting point reached was LUSOL and it reported at FL380. The town of Digne is only about 20nm away from LUSOL so an extreme descent rate of -14000fpm might sound silly but would be in line with something catastrophic

Yes but Barcelonette, near where the plane actually came down, is another 40 nm from Digne which reduces the assumed descent rate by two thirds.

[Blind Squirrel]

Alain Vidalies, Minister of Transport, says that "several bodies" had been seen around the wreckage of the aircraft. Presumably this suggests an impact with limited forward speed. Europe 1 also reports that the aircraft is "almost entirely in one piece."

Vidalies : le survol "a permis de voir la carcasse de l'avion et quelques corps autour'" - Vidéo Dailymotion (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2kftci_vidalies-le-survol-a-permis-de-voir-la-carcasse-de-l-avion-et-quelques-corps-autour_news#utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

https://twitter.com/Europe1/status/580330987235704832

[Pittsextra]

Germanwings Airbus Crashes in France; Survivors Unlikely (1)
By Benedikt Kammel and Andrea Rothman
(Bloomberg) -- An Airbus A320 crash in southern France may have claimed the lives of all 154 people on board, in what would be the worst air accident on French soil in decades.
Germanwings Flight 9525 operated by the low-cost subsidiary of Deutsche Lufthansa AG went down in the Digne region about an hour north of Marseille en route from Barcelona to Dusseldorf, Germany, according to German air-traffic control authorities. Wreckage has been sighted, and French President Francois Hollande said there are unlikely to be any survivors.
“This is a tragedy that has happened on French soil,” Hollande said in Paris. “We need to show all support in the face of this drama.”
The crash is likely to be the most fatal in at least three decades in France and is the first for Germanwings. The A320 single-aisle jet is Airbus’s most popular model, and is an industry workhorse used on shorter distances. The planes are generally operated with about 150 passengers or slightly more in low-cost variants. There were 154 people on board the plane, including crew, according to German air-traffic authorities, which said the plane went down around 10:37 a.m. local time.
Germanwings operates Deutsche Lufthansa’s European routes outside of the German carrier’s main Frankfurt and Munich hubs. The move was designed for Lufthansa to better compete against budget carriers in Europe. Lufthansa, like its European peers, has come under pressure to lower costs as more people opt for no-frills airlines on shorter distances.
Rugged Terrain
The plane went down in rugged terrain, according to Hollande, who is coordinating a crisis response with German Chancellor Angela Merkel. The actual crash site is at a higher altitude in the Le Vernet, near Prads-Haute-Bleone. Firemen and rescue teams are reaching the area, which is is about 58 miles northwest of Nice and 25 miles west of the Italian border, in a region of Provence popular with hikers and campers in the summer.
Radar images from Meteo-France showed no showers in the area at 10:30 a.m., minutes before the reported crash time. A weather station in Seyne, less than 10 kilometers north of reported crash site, measured winds of 3 kilometers per hour at the time with gusts up to 9.7 kilometers per hour, a light breeze on the Beaufort scale.
Dark Hour
Airbus said it’s focusing “all efforts” on assessing the situation, and that it’s been informed about an accident that involves one of the Toulouse, France-based products. The A320 aircraft is by far Airbus’s most widely flown model, and the aircraft has been popular with carriers around the world because it serves a key segment of the market and is equipped with advanced technologies such as fly-by-wire controls.
Germanwings plans to hold a press conference at about 3 p.m. in Cologne to provide an update. At Dusseldorf airport, where the plane was due to land shortly before noon, local crisis-response teams were on standby to assist relatives.
“As soon as definite information is available, we shall inform the media immediately,” the airline said.
Airbus dropped as much as 3.1 percent in Paris trading, while Lufthansa fell as much as 6 percent in Frankfurt.
Lufthansa Chief Executive Officer Carsten Spohr said in a message that the company doesn’t yet know what happened, though that “if our fears are confirmed, this is a dark day for Lufthansa.”

[bsieker]

I've no idea of an A320 performance but EO altidude in a 75/76 is generally around the low to mid 20's - certainly enough to level off above the Alps.

Here are engine-out ceilings from the manual:
https://i.imgur.com/99vPwAH.png

So similar to the 75/76, mid-to-low 20-thousands at medium gross weights, depending on ISA, packs, anti-ice, etc.

[donpizmeov2]

Why would you want to head to the Alps when few miles right you have NCE?

[NigelOnDraft]

I've no idea of an A320 performance but EO altidude in a 75/76 is generally around the low to mid 20's - certainly enough to level off above the AlpsDrift Down EO, even from FL380, will be only a few hundred fpm, and done at slow(er) speed. I would suggest a single engine failure is not worth much more discussion?

[weebobby]

why not head to Nice? That was my thoughts ... Unless they weren't in control of plane

[geneman]

Eye-witness account

A hotel worker in Digne, the closest town to the suspected crash site, has told BBC Radio 5 live (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02mp3xp) the plane was flying "very low". William says there are now several helicopters arriving at the site of the accident. He added that access to the crash site will be "very difficult" and that the area, normally covered in snow, is currently dry.

[VJW]

Now reporting 144 pax + 6 crew..

[NigelOnDraft]

I am very worried - with the latest happenings in Asia - that this is another stall scenario and I pray to whatever deities are out there that a stall scenario is NOT what happened here!!There is plenty of info already out there to discount that IMHO. Just look at the FR24 data - I would not believe it to DFDR standards, but it seems a fairly straight, roughly even descent at near max IAS/M.

[BigHitDH]

Any French military jets in the area unaccounted for?

[DaveReidUK]

squawk was just "Emergency Emergency"Radio call, not squawk.

[Squawk_ident]

The weather was reported fine this morning in the area but is now deteriorating quickly and there are a lot of low clouds. The ceiling is quite low now as we can see some video here. There is a ski resort not very far and the terrain is also very snowy. A lot of people have seen the aircraft flying very low and some also the sound of the impact. The region is of very hard access and it will take a lot of hours to reach the site. Some helicopters pilots reported that debris were disseminated on about 2sq km.
The King Felipe of Spain is in France today and has spoken some minutes ago at he Elysée Palace about this tragedy. He mentioned that there was also some Turkish citizens on board. About 45 Spanish were on board plus German citizens.
The distress signal at 1047 seemed to have been radioed at about 5500 feet.

[MichaelKPIT]

Interesting that the standard "terrorism has been ruled out" phrase has not been quoted yet?

[bsieker]

Is 400 knots GS and 3000fpm ROD (4.1 degree slope) consistent with a stall?

No.

We'd expect much lower GS and higher ROD. AF447 went down at around 10,000 fpm, and although an A320 is not an A330, parameters would probably not be that far apart.

[chalkhill-blue]

So much nonsense is being suggested here. Let's just consider what we know.
The aircraft descended quite quickly, but at a reasonable speed and apparently in a straight line. Also we are told there was a distress call. That suggests the crew were in control of the situation for most of the descent at least, and whatever the problem was, they certainly had time to think about it.
This doesn't look at all like an engine failure, or even a sudden decompression. In the latter case, if the crew coped with the initial drama, we would be looking at a routine diversion.
Much will hinge on what was said in the distress call. The 1500 press conference may deal with this.

[Blind Squirrel]

* The accident site is extremely prone to avalanches, according to a local guide; one took place only this morning.

* Deadliest French air accident since a DC-9 flew into the side of a mountain near Ajaccio (Corsica) in 1981.

* None of the victims are believed to be French. 45 Spanish; the remainder presumed mostly German and Turkish.

* Local people in the villages adjoining (which only have populations of a couple of hundred each) say that they heard nothing.

* According to La Provence, the débris field extends over an area of two square kilometres.

[Interflug]

The - at this early stage - available data is a 100% match with other sensor icing incidents on Airbus models, like this one:

Incident: Lufthansa A321 near Bilbao on Nov 5th 2014, loss of 4000 feet of altitude (http://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074)

another one:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/details-of-a330-angle-of-attack-sensor-incident-emerge-379921/

Recovery was only possible there, because the captain was intimate beyond required airbus driver skills with the computers and pulled the critical hardware units "cold turkey". Had more "mainstream" pilots been on board, the outcome might have been comparable to what we got today.

[weebobby]

what about the same pitch down that happened to the LH321 in November but this time the pilots weren't able to rectify ?

[Suggs]

14000 rate of decent. Sounds more like a cabin rate of climb to me? Muddled figures? Would be about right during a sudden loss of pressurisation.

[FIRESYSOK]

Loss of all hydraulics could explain a marginally controlled flight path. The 320 can be 'flown' with differential thrust and trim, correct?

[Geotracker]

Reminder:

Tere was NO distress call apparently. There has been talking about a DETRESFA launched by ATC.

[Loose rivets]

Remember the Pappa India Trident. A police officer who attended the crash site said some of the injuries might have been survivable if only they could have got the medics to the site more quickly. This hull with part intact? I'm getting a bad feeling about not being able to get there quickly.


Diverskii said, Think it's safe to say -14,000fpm is a glitch

And I was about to say, yes, but what caused that glitch when

ACMS said: The 14,000 fpm is a spike possibly caused by the event triggering this crash. Possibly a pressure shock over the static ports?

The Aircraft continued at FL380 for a time after that spike then descended as you'd expect with flight idle and speed brakes extended at VMO.

Somehow the crew became disabled and unable to level off.......


If we're to have speculation, I think this is a good one. Real food for thought. The main issues with this idea are: Is the data reliable? And if so how often can one find glitches of that magnitude - i.e. is it unique? If it were reliable data and rare, I think it would be very significant.

I've found myself dropping out of the sky at night not far from there. I only had to contend with hot pieces of windshield going down my shirt and I'm very aware how unexpected occurrences like that can make a major difference in what should be routine drills. They may have had a far bigger distraction.

[weebobby]

Interflug this is exactly what I have been thinking

However surely crew would of been trained in this after Bilbao especially in LH/GermanWings ...

[ironbutt57]

14000 feet altitude loss in 6 minutes....one report anyway....then level for a bit...

[henra]

The - at this early stage - available data is a 100% match with other sensor icing incidents on Airbus models, like this one:


Can we leave this pointless speculation?
The flight was in cruise before the event, so the AoA probe won't have frozen at a high/inappropriate angle of attack.
There was no CB/Thunderstorm in that area if we can trust any Information available. so no icing to be expected at cruise altitude. Had they frozen during climb, the Problem would have manifested itself earlier.
Therefore no significant similarities regarding surrounding conditions.
And the AD covering this incident should have been communicated to all crews describing how to handle such an Event, should it occur.

[FE Hoppy]

What smacks me as odd is that the aircraft left it's cruise alt and descended in a straight line towards the Alps for 10 minutes without communicating. I'm not yet clear as to when the Mayday was made, if it was a mayday or if it was from the crew nut they had a lot of time to stick 7700 or give a radio call during the descent.

Comparing this to the 4000' loss of alt due to icing doesn't wash and If it was an emergency descent due to decompression why didn't they turn off the airway and away from high ground?

[Blind Squirrel]

According to a source from the Direction de la sécurité civile, there was no in-flight explosion.

EN DIRECT. Crash d?un avion A320 Germanwings: «Il n?y a aucun survivant»? Le roi d'Espagne écourte sa visite d'Etat en France... - 20minutes.fr (http://www.20minutes.fr/societe/1570199-20150324-direct-alpes-haute-provence-crash-a320-digne)

[CharlieBrem]

An Air France pilot flying over the area told France's BFM-TV that the German A-320 crew did not apprently declare an emergency to controllers. The "distress call" came from them setting the transponder to 7700

[mockingjay]

Lear - even if it were the pesky European pilots blocking up the unreliable airspeed procedure is well documents, summarised in the QRH and would likely have been practiced in the SIM. LH have a very strong record for training and operational excellence and cannot see that any Germanwings crew would repeat AF447. You have pitch and power and also BUSS on some newer planes (granted this one likely didn't have BUSS).

[RTD1]

CNN is reporting a distress call made 44 minutes into the flight:

French Alps plane crash: 148 were aboard, official says - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/24/europe/france-plane-crash/index.html)

Not sure how that's possible. Just eyeballing the following chart would seem to put that after the crash.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03243/Germanwings-GWI952_3243337b.jpg

[safelife]

In the A320 in order to fully deploy speedbrakes one has to disengage the autopilot.
If the crew did that and then eventually became unconscious the aircraft would not level up.
Just sayin'.

[marie paire]

Yes, Nice was far, but Marseille was just 5 minutes or so to the left when the aircraft started descending. It is difficult to envisage any circumstances under which anyone consciously would elect to continue flying straight ahead into the mountains for another 100 miles instead of diverting to Marseille. And at the same time not saying a word, either to enroute ATC or to Marseille Approach. Incapacitation of the crew is one of the very few scenarios consistent with these know facts. The question then would be what could cause such - apparently almost instantaneous incapacitation? Hypoxia? Possible, but how? Explosion in the cockpit or cockpit area? Possible. There are certainly other scenarios, but not many.

[physicus]

I think the "distress call" they are referring to is ATC declaring DETRESFA. That, almost by definition, happens after impact.

Descent rate sure doesn't look like an emergency descent rate. Never flew the 320 but I'd expect 6000-8000fpm at minimum in an expedited autopilot coupled descent at MMO?

Plus, Marseille and Montpellier to the left both have flat terrain, long runways, definitely the diversion of choice, if able. There appears to be a 10 degree or so course change at TOD, indicative of a "let's get off the airway" move?

[Plastic787]

Not if you suspected structural damage.

[spooky3]

What would the French airforce be useing a Boeing C-135FR Stratotanker in the area for as now showing on FR24?

[kbrockman]

All this speculation about blocked probes et all seems very premature and unfounded up until now if you ask me.
Looking at the first data (flight path, descend speed) there is literally nothing that suggest probe failure whatsoever.
No erratic up and down motions, no stall, no excessive descend speed.

What is very strange is the straight path flown right up until impact, no attempt whatsoever to aim for one of the many possible airports nearby.

This looks more like the Helios 2005 crash (with the exception of the long flight up until fuel starvation) than anything else, loss of pressure (explosive decompression ???) and subsequently crew incapacitated.

They cannot rule out anything up until now, everything from equipment failure to accidental explosion or even sabotage/terrorism is on the table.

[CodyBlade]

In a dire situation, no professional will utter "emergency.emergency"..

[Squawk_ident]

It has been just release that the crew did NOT issue any mayday message at 1047. (Source DGAC)
At 1047 Marseille control asked one or more aircraft to look in their flying sector if they could see something according to a missing aircraft.

[NigelOnDraft]

If someone wants to create/discount theories, suggest use FR24 data (speed, altitude, V/S, hdg/track) against OP DES. Might be of interest (to some) would be the automatics and M/IAS cutover v protections etc.

[physicus]

The primary driver for EMER DESC is to get to where the air becomes breathable. Questionable airframe integrity is mostly a speed consideration, not descent rate. You might elect to not descend at MMO in that case, but the FR24 data seems to suggest otherwise, they kept the speed pretty high.

Unless of course you simply are not in control. But in that case you might think there's enough time to at least place a mayday call, or set the 7700 XPDR (which some people seem to think has been set, but FR24 shows some 55xx code to the end).

[uksatcomuk]

Suspect reports of distress call are bogus.
The a/c would have been down by that time.

Whatever happened took place just after reaching FL380 near Toulon.

PlanePlotter data has been submitted to AAIB

[daz211]

I'm not a pilot and I am struggling to understand a few points.
Firstly from what I have seen and heard on here and the news the aircraft started a decent just over the coast with a number of major airports available for diversion how normal would it be for a pilot to continue on a heading to the Alps knowing there was some kind of problem no mater how small surely you would not head to a massive hazard knowing you had started some kind of a decent.

Also how normal is it not to squawk 7700 keeping in mind the aircraft had 10 minutes of continued decent heading to mountainous territory.

And I'm struggling to understand why would a pilot not contact ATC even just to say we have a small problem we are trying to fix it and we need to decend

Last but not least would ATC not have contacted the aircraft to ask why they were decending.

I know there might be reasons but it just doesn't make any sense to me and once again I'm not a pilot but as a professional driver I would not head into a situation where problems would or could get worse if I was on a A road with stopping options I would not commit to a motorway slip road knowing I had an engine warning light on in my cab or a puncture on my trailer.

[andrasz]

What would the French airforce be useing a Boeing C-135FR Stratotanker in the area

It is a command and control aircraft (with in-air refueling capability), it would be the providing primary radar coverage and control for rescue aircraft.

[Tank2Engine]

According to a source from the Direction de la sécurité civile, there was no in-flight explosion.

EN DIRECT. Crash d?un avion A320 Germanwings: «Il n?y a aucun survivant»? Le roi d'Espagne écourte sa visite d'Etat en France... - 20minutes.fr (http://www.20minutes.fr/societe/1570199-20150324-direct-alpes-haute-provence-crash-a320-digne)I would tend to agree with that, although I'm far from an expert at these things. :uhoh:

Wouldn't an explosion probably have scattered the debris over a much bigger area and into much smaller pieces, just like with MH17, TWA800 and PanAm103 over Lockerbie?

[Sheep Guts]

No Maday from the crew. The French civil aviation authority have said to AAP Reuters. It was a general broadcast by ATC declaring emergency to other traffic in the region or FIR.

[SouthendPilot]

An Italian military Jet, MM7168 was squawking 7700, literally a couple of minutes before the Airbus came down in the same area.

Pure speculation obviously, but I suspect 7168 was the source of the Airbus distress alert.

[rog747]

very experienced captain prev from LH 10000hrs with 6000 on type

a/c joined GW in 2001 from LH

No distress call from crew cannot be confirmed - contradictory and conflicting reports

source germanwings ceo press conf CGN

[Denti]

GWI press conference: aircraft was one minute at cruise level before it descended, descend duration was eight minutes. Last routine check of the aircraft was last night in DUS by lufthansa maintenance (24 hour check), last C check was in summer 2013.

The captain was flying for more than 10 years for lufthansa and germanwings, over 6000 hours experience on type.

[JSmithDTV]

@Evanelpus

That would be why ATC declared the emergency... uncontactable with an unusual and unauthorised decent?

[Munnyspinner]

worth noting that the average height in the district is around 3140ft .. the terrain ranges from around 2990ft to about 9650ft

[rog747]

GWI confirms that a/c had latest software and computers after LH incident

[Barcli]

"An Italian military Jet, MM7168 was squawking 7700, literally a couple of minutes before the Airbus came down in the same area."

Where did this info come from ?

[strake]

There are a number of sites on the internet that instantly 'hear' a 7700 and put out messages to subscribers. None have done so today for this flight..

[txl]

Germanwings chief pilot, asked about the A321 iced sensors incident that was making headlines here lately (see thread "Iced AoA sensors send A321 into deep dive"): The sensors in question had been replaced with newer models in the A320 that crashed.

[SouthendPilot]

Well, check back through FR24. MM7168 at 09.35 (GMT) shouted 7700 near the alps.

[San Diego kid]

This is going to be one very hard SAR mission, the terrain overthere is extreme rough, with almost no roads going in, and at this moment of the year lots and lots of snow.

[Munnyspinner]

french authorities are reporting wreckage at 2700m (8850ft)
CFIT after a decompression event?

[uksatcomuk]

As I pointed out earlier , the "event" took place over Toulon around 0931 ...nothing to do with the Italian a/c

[andrasz]

This is going to be one very hard SAR mission, the terrain overthere is extreme rough

Based on official statements released so far this is what the approximate area of the accident site looks like: Panoramio - Photo of Col de l'Estrop, vue sur les Séolane. (http://www.panoramio.com/photo/97058289)

[Heathrow Harry]

Press Conference had no real news - just a holding statement really - promised they'd get back when they knew something solid.

Main priority is handling the famillies right now

[wrecker]

Does anyone have a definitive location yet? BBC et al are shifting their reported position. Started as Digne then Meolans-Revel now Seyne - les- Alpes

[AirScotia]

From the BC:

Michel Suhubiette, a mountain guide based in Digne, tells French newspaper La Provence: "We heard a plane passing at a very low altitude but we didn't see it and it was strange as there's not a route that flies at that altitude there," he said.

Suggests that at least one engine was running.

[wrecker]

French PM reporting Helicopter has landed near crash site and found no survivors

[LadyL2013]

The FR24 alert went out at a similar time. The miltary aircraft was just north of Trieste though. I saw the alert this morning. Could very well have been coincidence though. Could have very well confused this squawk with the Airbus.

[Electricflyer]

According to Sky News a few moments ago, everybody's worst fears realised, ie. Initial heli overflight of the crash site has revealed no survivors:( .
What might lead us to suspect an inflight catastrophic event would be the fact that there was no mayday call in well over 10 mins of (fairly) rapid descent. Further, there appears not to have been any deviation in heading which seems pretty inconceivable had the crew been conscious and trying to fly the aircraft.
Grim indeed...

[uksatcomuk]

No Southend pilot , it was 0931 GMT .
Thats when the data suddenly changed and the rapid descent started.

[Squawk_ident]

A private pilot has made an interesting testimony by phone on a French TV.
He was flying a single engine aircraft when he was asked by Marseille Control on 120.55 to look around. He was informed that the last plot of the missing aircraft was at FL60 on a 010 heading in the area he was flying. At that time he was VMC and the weather very good. He climbed to FL60 but could not see anything. He also contacted Barcelonnette airfield to ask if they saw of heard something but the answer was negative.
The accident area is in fact the " Massif des Trois Evêchés ", a high mountain rising up to 2900m. (44.285 6.507).
The weather is worsening now and rain/snow is forecast.

[andrasz]

Does anyone have a definitive location yet?

Most reliable info is from the statement by the French minister of transport who overflew the accident site. The statement put the accident near Prads-Haute-Bléone. There is the steeply rising massif of l'Estrop (2961m) to the NE with several ridges and peaks rising above 2700 metres. Judging from the flight path the aircraft would have hit the SW slopes.

Update:

The location is confirmed as le Vallon de Galebre, a steep cirque along the SW face of l'Estrop. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/113508243

[jugofpropwash]

Would the combination of this being an older aircraft plus the fact that it was being flown around Europe rather than long-haul suggest that there would be a higher than normal number of pressurization cycles on the airframe? If so, could that be a consideration?

[Lost in Saigon]

I'm struggling with the Flight Radar info that keeps getting flashed up on the BBC, as to why the course that was intended shows that the aircraft deviated so far off track almost immediately after take off or is this just a 'generic' course shown? Happy to be corrected and RIP to all sad day for our trade.

The aircraft did not deviate. It flew on it's flight planned course. Not every flight is a straight line between two points.

[ionagh]

"0935 UTC is 1135 CET. "


It will be next week

[Munnyspinner]

German wings operate under the same LCC model as Easyjet and Ryanair. Freight in not usually carried. If Barcelona may be an easy marque for those without good passports but I think the hand baggage and hold baggage screening is sound.
My view is that this accident has all the hallmarks of an accident not an act of terrorism. Most accidents are a result of a chain of events which have a catastrophic outcome. Time will tell.

The aircraft did not deviate. It flew on it's flight planned course. Not every flight is a straight line between two points.
so why is the planned course from Barcelona to Düsseldorf so far off the shortest direct line? it does seems somewhat obtuse but there must be a good reason.

[Pontius Navigator]

It is a command and control aircraft (with in-air refueling capability), it would be the providing primary radar coverage and control for rescue aircraft.

It is not a command and control aircraft and only has standard CCWR. You are confusing it with the E3F.

[SouthendPilot]

Ok, lets just clear this up...

MM7168 (NOT the Airbus) squawks 7700 at 09:35 GMT, which is 10:35am Central European Time (Promise!) just to the East in Northern Italy.

The Airbus, started the rapid descent at 09:31 GMT, or 10:31 CET.

We're confident that there's zero connection?

[AreOut]

"Ok, lets just clear this up...

MM7168 (NOT the Airbus) squawks 7700 at 09:35 GMT, which is 10:35am Central European Time (Promise!) just to the East in Northern Italy.

The Airbus, started the rapid descent at 09:31 GMT, or 10:31 CET.

We're confident that there's zero connection?"

we can't be confident there is but can't be confident there isn't too so it's just pure speculation, MM7168 would fly with its transponder on and it would be seen on ATC radar anyway

[blind pew]

If the crash site is near here rather than the higher mountains to the NE as originally reported the access will be somewhat better as the forest is littered with DFCI...hard gravel roads for the pompiers....(but now snow covered)

Know the region from gliders and by road fairly well...it's on the mountain soaring route from Gap to the Parcours. Not that it helps anyone.

[henra]

Pitot-static is my vote.


An icing/failure of the pitot static would lead to a stable decent at ~350kts IAS how, exactly?

Is this kind of unsubstantiated/unqualified speculation really necessary?

[Stu666]

Not sure if related to the search but the factory Airbus A350 (F-WXWB) is currently airbourne near the crash area having been doing racetracks over the mediterranean for a while.

[SouthendPilot]

@AreOut of course, every page of this thread is pure speculation!

"MM7168 would fly with its transponder on and it would be seen on ATC radar anyway" - I'm not sure what point you're making?

One jet descends and crashes, the other declares an emergency, within 5 minutes of each other in the same area both at FL350. Those are the facts.

[Rananim]

You have to consider what fits.Decompression fits but needs something else(like incapacitation-esp Capt,maybe dual)to explain the aftermath.
Airbus software anomaly fits but Lufthansa's reputation would tend to discount this.Terrorism could also fit but unlikely.It leads back to decompression with incapacitation.Thats with what we know now.

[Calapine]

o why is the planned course from Barcelona to Düsseldorf so far off the shortest direct line? it does seems somewhat obtuse but there must be a good reason. 24th Mar 2015 15:52Because the underlying air corridors mostly aren't on a straight path either, but look more like this:



https://i.imgur.com/AuYChvG.jpg

[Squawk_ident]

Haute-Provence | Un A320 s'écrase près de Barcelonnette : 150 morts (http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-provence/2015/03/24/un-a320-s-ecrase-dans-la-zone-de-barcelonnette)

[Beanbag]

We don't know much here but we do have a bit more info than on the two recent Asian incidents. The aircraft descended at a steady rate in a straight line for several minutes until it hit the ground. That says to me that it was under aerodynamic control but not under the pilots' control. So it didn't explode in flight, it probably wasn't hijacked, and relatively simple things like a single engine failure weren't the sole cause. And that the simple answer to the 'why didn't they/why did they' questions is probably that they couldn't, for reasons yet to be identified.

Of the recent events, the one it's most like is MH370 (which was of course a Boeing) - but this time we should have the recorders pretty quickly to find out what happened.

[HeathrowAirport]

@PortVale According to Germanwings CEO, D-AIPX had a maintenance check yesterday by Lufthansa, and the last C check was the summer of 2013. So it was due a major Check, however the aircraft landed yesterday from Madrid at 21:28.

It flew 4U9524 STD 05:45 departing late at 06:01 arriving a few minutes late at 07:57 before departing 25 minutes late at 09:00 (STD 08:35).

Probably a routine overnight maintenance check. The aircraft had accumulated approximately 58,300 flight hours in some 46,700 flights.

[andrasz]

You are confusing it with the E3F

Nope. My understanding is that French AF C-135FR-s have a C&C capability, at least I have witnessed them being used for that role in Chad with same tactics, the C-135 circling above target area at 320-350 while the smaller fry go in to do the job.

[ILS27LEFT]

https://twitter.com/Menno_Boermans/status/580382638768275456/photo/1

[gpsavd]

Rescuers appear to have seen some movement in the debris.

Crash A320 : un possible survivant sur les lieux | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/actu/faits-divers-en-direct/3327253/crash-a320-un-possible-survivant-sur-les-lieux.html)

[His dudeness]

Acc. to German news mag "Der Spiegel" the airframe had 58.300hrs/46.700 Landings.

[ILS27LEFT]

Quote from above:
"Rescuers appear to have seen some movement in the debris.

Crash A320 : un possible survivant sur les lieux | La Provence "

If the plane has completely disintegrated as per twitter picture above, I do not see how anybody could have survived, maybe helicopter crew already on site as per official press release.

[GGFFB]

It definitely hadn't just come off a C Check.


2015-03-24
4U9524 Dusseldorf (DUS) Barcelona (BCN) 06:45 AM CET 07:01 AM 08:55 AM CET Landed 08:57 AM
2015-03-23

2015-03-23
4U9515 Madrid (MAD) Dusseldorf (DUS) 20:05 PM CET 20:25 PM 22:30 PM CET Landed 22:28 PM
2015-03-23
4U9514 Dusseldorf (DUS) Madrid (MAD) 16:40 PM CET 16:51 PM 19:25 PM CET Landed 18:58 PM
2015-03-23
(GWI79H)

2015-03-22
4U9045 Berlin (TXL) Dusseldorf (DUS) 20:40 PM CET 20:57 PM 21:55 PM CET Landed 21:49 PM
2015-03-22
(GWI45X)
2015-03-22
4U9044 Dusseldorf (DUS) Berlin (TXL) 18:35 PM CET 19:02 PM 19:40 PM CET Landed 19:48 PM
2015-03-22
4U9465 London (LHR) Dusseldorf (DUS) 15:40 PM GMT 16:12 PM 18:00 PM CET Landed 18:03 PM

[Squawk_ident]

A French deputy was on board an helicopter and made a testimony.
I hope that no precise pictures of what he has seen will be published.
It was hard for him to speak and hard to hear.

[meadowrun]

Last C Check in 2013


I do wish the Pres's and PM's would confine themselves to condolences and stay out of the "I am coordinating" grandstanding. They have experts already tasked for these incidents - let them do their jobs. Merkel is going to the site tomorrow to talk with the rescue teams.

[threemiles]

From Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker! (http://fr24.com) there is an ADS-B data file with 7909 data points available.

Final position is N44.234 E006.407 at 09:40:36Z, FL68, VS -3520 ft/min

The data file needs to be filtered for several stations that deliver bad data etc. The best station is 1418 which sends consistent data which data is plotted below
.
There was no change of squawk (5512 all the time).
FL380 was maintained for exactly 3 minutes before it was left again.
The descent was initially shallow, it did not start abrupt.

Here is a plot of Vertical rate and FL over Latitude. Track was 025° over the entire plot and GS was only slowly decreasing, therefore Latitude is almost proportional with time.

Vertical speed is fluctuating quite significant.

At the time of start of descent track changes 20 degrees to the left, but this seems to be in line with the flight path (same as day before).

http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150324/yp6dhgdb.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

Apparently, the crew was in contact with ATC during the decent up to FL60 when contact was lost.I suspect that whatever unidentified source you are quoting simply means that ATC were in radar contact with the aircraft (which we already know), not that there was continuous voice contact (which we know there wasn't).

If that is the case, as reported by the Germanwings CEO, then the decent must have been in a control manner up to that level before a terrible event happened.That doesn't follow at all.

Any info about the exchange with ATC??See above.

[daz211]

I can't understand how an aircraft can decend so dramatically over 8 minutes with out ATC asking why or the pilot contacting ATC stating why.

[eastern wiseguy]

Daz211
..I would bet my last buck the controller WAS asking and ( if neccessary) moving other traffic out of the way. WHETHER the crew was able to respond is the more pertinent question. From what I have read here it would appear they weren't.

[Speed of Sound]

I can't understand how an aircraft can decend so dramatically over 8 minutes with out ATC asking why or the pilot contacting ATC stating why.

We don't know that they didn't ask why (they had left their assigned FL, rather than why they were 'decending so dramatically')

We do know that ATC put out a request for sightings to other aircraft in the area, which suggests there was no dialogue between ATC and the aircraft during the descent.

[RAT 5]

Apologies; I have no charts for this area, but what is the MSA for the crash site? It would seem odd if it was a controlled descent to below MSA. Sorry if this has been asked & answered.

[LiveryMan]

Apparently what's left:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA32CycU8AAhwIN.jpg

[Kulverstukas]

No big parts on this and at photos from previous link (contrary to what was said at the first two pages).

and the Sukhoi crash @ Mount Salak.

Main difference is weather (visibility).

[ILS27LEFT]

https://twitter.com/airlivenet/status/580394896621772800/photo/1

part of fuselage on the left hand side

[Heathrow Harry]

Sixteen schoolchildren and two teachers are believed to have been on the aircraft, a spokeswoman for the German town of Haltern am See has said. "We don't have any official confirmation yet," she added.
Local media reports (http://www.halternerzeitung.de/staedte/haltern/Flugzeugabsturz-Halterner-Schueler-waren-an-Bord-der-Ungluecksmaschine;art900,2662754) (in German) that the children are from the Joseph Koenig school. It says the building has been closed and students sent home.

[John in YVR]

Hard to imagine the debris field would be a wide as it shows in posts 203 and 205 if the flight tracker in post 197 is accurate.

Even with the rough terrain the VS suggests that there would be more big sections.

[mockingjay]

If you hit a cliff, in a high energy situation it matters not what your VS is. With VS 0 it will stil lead to total destruction.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nope. My understanding is that French AF C-135FR-s have a C&C capability, at least I have witnessed them being used for that role in Chad with same tactics, the C-135 circling above target area at 320-350 while the smaller fry go in to do the job.

Agree C&C as many other aircraft can but no airborne radar so would need cooperative aircraft using just radios.

[GearDown&Locked]

Curious about those phugoid oscillations. Shame we don't have a speed trace to compare.

[mockingjay]

The lower slopes of the Alps are clear of snow in many locations. It looks perfectly feasible and consistent with the topography of the area. It looks like an airliner or sorts and I can see the distinctive GWI maroon colour. I think it is fair to say it is genuine.

[Speed of Sound]

It would seem odd if it was a controlled descent to below MSA.

I suspect it may have started simply, as a controlled decent to an altitude where the air was breathable.

Instead of explosive decompression, it may have been a failure or partial failure to pressurise on the way up to FL380. If both pilots were already starting to suffer the effects of hypoxia before the TOC it may explain the 'gut reaction' to just get down rather than point the aircraft somewhere other than a fast approaching mountain range. :(

[AirScotia]

Local paper Le Dauphine is the source of the emerging photos. They suggest the wreckage is in a dry valley below the snow line.

Haute-Provence | Un A320 s'écrase près de Barcelonnette : 150 morts (http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-provence/2015/03/24/un-a320-s-ecrase-dans-la-zone-de-barcelonnette)

[mockingjay]

It will be pretty quick to find out if it lost pressure due to the position of the O2 mask compartments in cabin. Most failures will still have the cabin descent with the aircraft but it can be done manually too.

[timmermc]

The regional paper 'LeDauphine' reports they already found one blackbox.

[HubertWilkins]

Hmm so you think they had decompression issues and tried to get down, which would answer my initial question: If they were unconscious would the plane not continue to fly straight for hours, under autopilot (like in Greece incident some years ago?)
But if they were conscious enough to start a descent, that might be an explanation.
However, if they were conscious enough to start the descent, then they were conscious enough to
contact ATC/declare Mayday/at the very least squawk 77000 which does not even require them to speak (if too weak to do so)
thy did none of that, so i am not convinced by the pressurisation idea.

[Squawk_ident]

According to what I have seen on the picture the crash site would be at:

N 44.280 E 6.439

This is le Vallon de Galèbre

The nearest village is Le Vernet (Département 04 Alpes-de-Haute-Provence)

[Lost in Saigon]

Local paper Le Dauphine is the source of the emerging photos. They suggest the wreckage is in a dry valley below the snow line.

Haute-Provence | Un A320 s'écrase près de Barcelonnette : 150 morts (http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-provence/2015/03/24/un-a320-s-ecrase-dans-la-zone-de-barcelonnette)

Here are 3 of the photos from ledauphine.com:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/photo16/001.jpg~original

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/photo16/002.jpg~original

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/photo16/003.jpg~original

This looks to be the Google Earth position in the photo above...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/photo16/004.jpg~original

[NigelOnDraft]

Curious about those phugoid oscillations. Shame we don't have a speed trace to compare.if the aircraft was descending in OP DES, then engines will be idle, and pitch is used to control IAS/M. I would say those phugoids might not be unexpected due wind variations etc.

As you say, seeing the IAS values might backup, or disprove, that...

[clearedtocross]

Just for info - no fingerpointing meant: In the Marseille Area (LFMM) there seems to be quite a lot of military activity going on. An exercise called MALAY FREEDOM 01-2015 will be active tomorrow near the projected flightpath of the doomed flight and the LF-138 Restricted Area of Camp de Canjuers goes up to FL530. The latter is a very large military camp and a place where there is rocket firing too. And then, just about where the flight crossed the coast, there's Toulon, the main French naval base, prohibited area LF-P62 up to FL195.

[ILS27LEFT]

Decompression, hypoxia: it seems most credible scenario. Too early to say, true, but 8 minutes of descending without any radio communication would confirm some degree of incapacitation.:{ We have seen it before. If we then combine the hypoxia theory with the very busy military area just 25 miles before crash site, "friendly fire" is not an entirely an impossible theory. Damaged fuselage, decompression, hypoxia.

[goeasy]

Or perhaps their crew oxygen didn't work? Decompression. Started descent, then incapacitated. No calls. No turns or level off at FL140/FL100. Hate to think about it!

[ChickenHouse]

No, they would not be trying to reach the Barcelonette Airfield runway as it is only 2,600 ft long.
Correct, LFMC LeLuc-LeCannet Mil/Civ would have been the better choice, but this still does neither explain no-7700 nor radio silence.

[macdo]

In reality, it is possible that they started the initial emergency descent with a simple spin down of the Alt selector and a pull to get it into open descent. With no other inputs the rate of descent of c3000fpm would be normal, although over high ground you'd normally select the msa.

[mockingjay]

It means if there are 200+ O2 masks laying loose then it's a good chance it was a decompression. If most of the intact PSUs still have the O2 mask door close then there's a good chance cabin pressure never exceeded 14000msl. Quite simple really.

It is highly unlikely that any primary failure would cause the masks to deploy as a secondary failure and few failures that will result in a loss of cabin pressure. What I am saying is it will be very easy to rule a loss of cabin pressure in, or out.

[fireflybob]

I know very little of the Airbus, just know that situations like this are sadly more frequent.

Statistically, is this true?

[FIRESYSOK]

In a 'quick spin down' of the altitude selector, what are you likely to get? 20K? 5k?

[Speed of Sound]

However, if they were conscious enough to start the descent, then they were conscious enough to contact ATC/declare Mayday/at the very least squawk 77000 which does not even require them to speak (if too weak to do so)

I suggest you read something about the effects of hypoxia. It is not a question of whether they were conscious or not but what they were thinking/experiencing at the time.

[cirr737]

In a 'quick spin down' of the altitude selector, what are you likely to get? 20K? 5k?

Depends if the selector is in the 100' or 1000' detent, so you could even get zero with a quick spin.

What bugs me with the hypoxia hypothesis, is that the first actions are to put your masks on and establish comms, and only then do you start the descent...

[short bus]

A French article I read stated the French KC135 orbiting is there to support communications for SAR operations due to sketchy radio transmissions in the mountainous terrain.

[noalign]

Curious about those phugoid oscillations. Shame we don't have a speed trace to compare.

Back about #158 Wrist Watch posted some GS and ALT data. The GS varies from 330KTS IAS by less than 10KTS most of the way down.

[mcloaked]

There are more images of the crash site at:

AirLive.net: BREAKING Crash of an A320 in south of France - more details (http://www.airlive.net/2015/03/breaking-crash-of-a320-in-south-of.html)

However, despite so much speculation, there is an expectation that the FDR/VCR will be recovered fairly quickly, despite the difficult terrain, and the accident investigators have the debris field in an area devoid of snow, so the answers about the likely cause will be very much quicker to reach than for other high profile air accidents in the past year. At this stage there are many possible scenarios so it would be best to wait until the investigators have real evidence so that the event is understood - speculation is not really helping at this point in time.

[VJW]

fireflybob - Statistically there were less crashes in 2014 then in the recent past, but there were more fatalities in 2014 as the result of a plane crash then at least the 3 years prior. Think it matters little how many crashes there are compared to the amount of people that pass away as a result of one, which I believe is far more important.

[mockingjay]

Depends if the selector is in the 100' or 1000' detent, so you could even get zero with a quick spin.

What bugs me with the hypoxia hypothesis, is that the first actions are to put your masks on and establish comms, and only then do you start the descent...

You want to stay concious so it makes perfect sense to get on O2 ASAP.You then need to know if you're carrying out just the PM actions or just the PF actions. So you check the other guy is ok, then down you go performing your own actions. If the other guy ain't communicating then you're on your own and must do both the PM and PF actions.

[Speed of Sound]

What bugs me with the hypoxia hypothesis, is that the first actions are to put your masks on and establish comms, and only then do you start the descent...

I agree, which is why I suggested 'creeping hypoxia' due to failure to pressurise successfully. I do however find it difficult to understand how at least one of the pilots wouldn't have managed to get some oxygen, even in a partially hypoxic state but as I posted earlier, hypoxia affects perception before it affects consciousness and to put the mask on you need to be aware that you need the mask in the first place.

[Blind Squirrel]

Le Monde:-

The French Transport Minister's initial statement that a voice Mayday was transmitted is authoritatively contradicted. The DGAC duty engineer (ingénieur de permanence) declared an emergency on his own authority when the aircraft failed to respond to repeated ground transmissions and deviated from its assigned heading and altitude.

When he did this, in conformity with established anti-terrorism protocols a fighter aircraft was scrambled to try to make visual contact with the missing aircraft, along with a police helicopter.

The nearest road is 7 km (4 miles) from the crash site, and it's now snowing there.

La Provence:-

Quoting a rescuer on site: "Everything is pulverised. You can't distinguish the outline either of the aircraft or of the bodies."

A lieutenant-colonel of the Gendarmerie: there are perhaps half a dozen substantial chunks of the airframe left; everything else is in very small pieces. The débris field extends over an area of a hectare (2.5 acres).

According to Germanwings, this specific aircraft has had trouble with its computing apparatus of late, which was substituted before the accident.

[cirr737]

I agree, which is why I suggested 'creeping hypoxia' due to failure to pressurise successfully. I do however find it difficult to understand how at least one of the pilots wouldn't have managed to get some oxygen, even in a partially hypoxic state but as I posted earlier, hypoxia affects perception before it affects consciousness and to put the mask on you need to be aware that you need the mask in the first place.

Yes... but! The ECAM will throw it right into your face when your cabin altitude is excessive (but still way below critical altitudes) - it is not as subtle as it was on the 737 in the Helios case...

I hope it is a genuine accident, I really to hope for the sake of all of us and our industry... but I have a gut feeling it could have been foul play...

[GearDown&Locked]

In reality, it is possible that they started the initial emergency descent with a simple spin down of the Alt selector and a pull to get it into open descent. With no other inputs the rate of descent of c3000fpm would be normal, although over high ground you'd normally select the msa

It seems the most logical explanation for starting a "normal" controlled descent as the available data suggests.

Incapacitation of the crew could’ve occurred quickly, as they apparently failed to navigate (at least away from high ground) and communicate (mayday if anything).

[fireflybob]

Posted by McBruce

Talking to a colleague last night while at altitude prior to this news becoming knowledge to ourselves about a few recent uncommanded nose downs in the Airbus, I wasn't aware of these events. To his knowledge LH had one recently (true?) which took considerable effort of the crew to disconnect the AP to regain control. I know very little of the Airbus, just know that situations like this are sadly more frequent. It's need a little red switch that disconnects all flight computers for any moment of binary madness. I find it hard to believe it was ED CFIT.

fireflybob - Statistically there were less crashes in 2014 then in the recent past, but there were more fatalities in 2014 as the result of a plane crash then at least the 3 years prior. Think it matters little how many crashes there are compared to the amount of people that pass away as a result of one, which I believe is far more important.

VJW, the point I was making by the question:-

Statistically, is this true?

was with respect to "uncommanded nose downs in the Airbus" which I believe is what the original poster was referring to when he commented "I know very little of the Airbus, just know that situations like this are sadly more frequent."

So I was not referring to overall yearly accident statistics.

[RiSq]

Will be interesting to know what was in the hold (If anything) - Hopefully a manifest will surface if there was anything weird.

The strange blip on the data of 14,000 could be explained by something going off in the hold (Think someone said a previous spike was recorded by FDR due to a tyre exploding in a hold.

A rapid descent due to cabin depressurisation and something being not tied down properly (LiPOs for instance) and bashing about could cause a serious problem.

Again, the lack of contact with ATC is the confusing one, which would suggest a high likelihood of hypoxia....

Very strange - but then again, most incidents tend to be a strange train of events rather than a single point of failure.

[fireflybob]

All this talk about hypoxia, it's a while since I flew the A320 but seem to recall that if the cabin altitude exceeded 10,000 feet you would get a master warning which I would defy any pilot to not be aware of.

Of course, the crew has to get on oxygen asap as a first action etc and this assumes the oxygen system was charged and operating normally.

[ILS27LEFT]

I agree with the creeping hypoxia theory mentioned above, this would be compatible with the facts we have seen, e.g. the perfect straight line flying (unchanged heading) with descending without any radio communication. Both incapacitated and unable to inhale the necessary O2 before it was too late to recover from hypoxia and from descending into terrain. They probably only managed, already partially incapacitated but clearly unaware or unable to use masks, to enter the descending phase and then they could not complete the rest of the other instrumental changes meaning their plane continued descending without pilots until impact.:{

[MichaelKPIT]

Unlikely. If the flight deck crew were incapacitated then the cabin crew would have been too. They were at TOC - the cabin crew would already be standing and moving about the cabin, probably with the carts. This involves physical activity. The flight deck crew remain seated. What I'm saying is the cabin crew would probably have succumbed to incapacitation first.

[2Planks]

I have no idea what happened and am not going to speculate why 1000s of people are now mourning the loss of relatives but I will post these statistics to try and introduce some facts to reduce the number of tasteless posts in the AvB argument:


Number of hull losses per million flying hours to the end of 2013:


A318-321: O.24
B737 600-900: 0.27


A330: 0.30
B777: 0.40


A340: 0.69
B747 400: 0.93

[fizz57]

Assuming the route that was shown on FR24 earlier in this thread is broadly accurate, is that the expected track for flights on this route ?

If you look at yesterday's flight, you'll see that it follows the same track. In fact if you zoom in and superimpose the two images, you'll find the last recorded position only a couple of huindred metres off the track of the previous day's flight.

As to why they fly that way, we'll have to wait for a real -erm - professional pilot.

[kbrockman]

effect of sudden decompression at high altitude
6Efvl6AwILo

[fireflybob]

As to why they fly that way, we'll have to wait for a real -erm - professional pilot.

fizz57, all over Europe there are preferential routes depending on origin and destination. It's a bit like a one way street system like we have on the roads.

Also there are military training areas which need to be avoided.

Aircraft rarely fly in a straight line between departure and arrival airports.

[Sop_Monkey]

Cellphones only work within 4000' above ground level.

Anyone who doubts the danger of lack of oxygen and it's creeping effects, should do a session in a decompression chamber. I've witnessed people, so "drunk" from lack of Oxygen, they were incapable of putting a mask on, leave alone being incapable of writing their own name.

If decompression was the case in this disaster, then they all may have just gone to sleep. There are worse ways to go out.

[Jonzarno]

Here's a link (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/File:Hypo_Tab1.jpg) to a table of times of useful consciousness.

At 31,500 ft depending on circumstances and activity / stress levels it's somewhere between 15 & 45 seconds.

[Blind Squirrel]

According to the German newspaper Bild, the airframe had 58,300 hours in service and around 46,700 cycles.

The crash occurred at an elevation of 5,295' (1,614m).

The French Minister of the Interior has confirmed that one of the recorders has been retrieved. It's currently being examined by the BEA.

[23542351]

Reuters published this statement from DGAC: "The aircraft did not itself make a distress call but it was the combination of the loss of radio contact and the aircraft’s descent which led the controller to implement the distress phase."

It's hard to imagine the crew not making contact for the entire 8 minute descent unless they were severely impaired or somehow had an electrical failure leading to loss of all RMPs/transceivers.

Perhaps there was a slow decompression that left the crew somewhat impaired by the time it was clear there was a loss of cabin pressure leading to them selecting OP DES instead of donning their masks immediately.

If you listen to some of the ATC recordings of hypoxic pilots in the past you will understand just how much it can impair your thinking.

[JohnGalt]

Time of Useful Consceince ---- check these sites :

Time of useful consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)

Here's another site with better info:

Cabin Decompression and Hypoxia (http://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/aeromedical/decompressionandhypoxia.php)


Folks, as former check airman on the 747-400, as SOP I would command a "simulated" RD in cruise to the crew who I was giving an IOE or check ride to.

Results would blow your mind ---- most "effed up" big time. So, I would leave the cockpit, tell them to bone up on procedures, and I'll be baaaack and run the exercise again.

Some didn't even know how to do a rapid RD properly, some couldn't even get the mask out of holder, some hadn't ever experience this exercise before, some did not know how to preflight the system, some didn't know where the sanitary wipes were, some didn't know how to re-install the mask after use.

It's your life and your pax lives ---- get smart and make the time to do it right.

[silverstrata]

Witnesses have described ... seeing fighter jets fly past, suggesting the passenger plane had been under military escort.



Actually, quite possible.

If there were military aircraft in the area, and ATC has an aircraft descending but not not responding, they would naturally try to arrange a military intercept. But the military would have to be quick, as they probably had less than ten minutes to get there.

From the phugoid oscillations and lack of response the most likely scenario is throttle-closed descent under no particular control - with the automatics just trying to maintain some kind of heading and a pitch attitude. Although this would probably mean greater airspeed oscillations than are apparent. If it is another hypoxia incident, this will have to go to the top of the LPC-OPC list, instead of the usual stuff.

[Speed of Sound]

I am confident that this incident had nothing to do with the terrain. The fact that there were hills just sealed their fate slightly earlier than if this had been flat terrain.

Apart from the fact that if they had been able to descend to sea level, one or both pilots may have regained consciousness (if decompression was indeed the cause) enough to establish level flight or a climb while they came round enough to recover the flight. That of course, is assuming a serviceable aircraft other the pressurisation problems.

[Heathrow Harry]

from thebeeb

"The "black box" flight recorder has been found, the French interior minister says. The cause of the crash is not known and the plane did not send a distress signal"

[ILS27LEFT]

Johngalt you are so right: at that altitude, unless you have practiced many times before, you do not have a chance of making it, you also must be ultra quick in reacting without much warning, sudden panic will also kick in (it is a real incident not a test, your life is at risk) and even the most experienced can easily go beyond the 20/25 seconds or whatever is needed. In many "real" experimental cases there is no even the realistic time to get the mask out within deadline. If the Alps were not there this aircraft would have carried on until the ground or fuel exhaustion. :mad: I am sure pilots have tried their best, it must have all happened too quickly.:{

[NigelOnDraft]

If this is true, and I have no reason to refute this, that is absurd. The flight deck crew, in cases of in-flight decompression, are expected to retrieve stored oxygen masks within seconds of such an event? How bizarre. Surely there must be a better way? Such as??

In probably >75% of occasions pilots need them, they will choose to put them prior the cabin alt the pax oxy drops. They are close to the pilots, who are practised in putting them on. They need to arrange them v their headsets, so an automatic drop would not help much.

In the A320, from the call of "Masks On" to having the mask inflated in your hand will be <5s.

[ILS27LEFT]

Video
VIDEO FRANCETV. Crash dans les Alpes : les premières images des débris (http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/accident/crash-dans-les-alpes/video-francetv-crash-dans-les-alpes-les-premieres-images-des-debris_857811.html)

[X-37]

If it were due to a decompression, and an emergency decent was initiated before incapacitation, how come the aircraft didn't level off at 10,000ft? The crew are unlikely to dial a lower altitude. It appears that a much lower altitude was commanded which makes no sense.

[JohnGalt]

John Smith --- yes, that is what the sim is for, but now do it in "real life" in cruise at 39,000' over anywhere you pick --- results will suprise you.

[Wrist Watch]

I don't get how would they enter a controlled (presumably idle) descent with hypoxia setting in?
In an Airbus, one has to physically operate the ALT knob to initiate descent.
Someone had to consciously decide to leave FL380, not least very soon after reaching TOC.

[athonite]

Jonzaro, refers to tables for time of useful consciousness of between 15 to 45 seconds, however I suspect that the data comes from very fit military pilots under the age of thirty, so I would add that factors such as age, weight, fitness and smoking in particular could adverse factor, having said that, I cant really see why the mask couldn't be donned in less than ten seconds in most situation which should be sufficient for most pilots, even at 40,000 ft. However in Concorde the time was really critical, assuming total and sudden decompression.

As for the statistics from 2Planks, Airbus v Boeing, it sort of blows out of the water that Airbus aircraft are less safe.

[Sop_Monkey]

MJSV

Stand corrected as there are exceptions.

I gleaned my knowledge on a ME flag carrier. During the emergency brief by the crew, half the pax weren't listening. The part about turning off mobile phones must have not got through, as on descent below about 4000 ft I couldn't hear myself think, for Mobil phones giving audio signals of messages received.

[McGinty]

The hypoxia theory is very plausible. But would not the pilots recover somewhat as the plane descended below 14,000 feet or so? Would the 5 to 6 minutes with low oxygen be sufficient to actually completely incapacitate all on board even below 10,000 feet as opposed to just making them temporarily unconscious down to that height?

[fireflybob]

fireflybob:

Thanks for clarifying. And might one also add: if one is cognizant of the necessity to do so?

I'm not sure I understand why the flight crew's oxygen masks can't be deployed via drop-down as they are for us, riding in the back?
Is there a technical reason for this? I do understand that the oxygen devices for flight deck crew members are easily accessible IF they have the wherewithal to understand the need to do so. It's one thing to have to actively look for and then don such an apparatus but entirely different if it's hanging in front of your face, no?

rgbrock1, firstly, the oxygen system for passengers is chemically generated. When you pull the mask towards you this causes the system to operate for a limited period - long enough to get down to a safe altitude etc.

Crew oxygen operates from bottles charged with oxygen. Part of the crew checks is to ensure adequate oxygen is on board before flight by reading the gauge on the flight deck. There are also other routine checks which each crew member would do on their mask system to ensure it is fully serviceable. The crew system will operate for a much longer time than the passenger system depending on the number of crew members on oxygen (with could be 4 crew if 2 are jump seating) and the amount of oxygen that is on board.

Emergency descents and loss of pressurisation which involve donning the masks are regularly carried out in the simulator and pilots are trained to get onto oxygen ASAP as a matter of routine. Pilots are trained to fully understand the importance of getting on oxygen as THE number one priority.

As a crew member you don't have to look for it - you instinctively know where it is. In fact I could easily locate it within a split second with my eyes closed and be breathing oxygen within a few seconds.

[jsypilot]

I think that they are saying that the report came from 10 km from the crash site.

[NigelOnDraft]

The hypoxia theory is very plausible. But would not the pilots recover somewhat as the plane descended below 14,000 feet or so? Would the 5 to 6 minutes with low oxygen be sufficient to actually completely incapacitate all on board even below 10,000 feet as opposed to just making them temporarily unconscious down to that height?If there is a total decompression at 38K', you are not on Oxygen, and take >5 minutes to get below ~25K', your recovery options are not looking too good. Ever :{

(I think 3mins is the quoted figure where permanent damage becomes a possibility - many will last longer IIRC)

[Pozidrive]

athonite,


Can I suggest the small number of incidents makes any comparison Airbus v. Boeing meaningless with regard to the statistics.

[Trackdiamond]

Departure was delayed by half hour.The spokeswoman VP couldnt account for why it did when interrogated by a journalist. The plane is an older generation 320 (flew first Nov 1990?91?)..clocked over 58000 hrs. Why couldn't the senior executive answer a simple question as to delay reason? Surely they would know such basic info before facing the bullets in a press conferences? Better to always have Flt Ops personnel in these initial press conference rather than sales executives i would say...reflected poorly on German wings/Lufthansa.why wasnt Lufthansa ops expertise there..that they own GW..

[andrasz]

Pilots are trained to fully understand the importance of getting on oxygen as THE number one priority.

I may add from experience that LH (group) SOP-s take this very seriously.

In pre-hysteria times I have often flown on a cockpit jump-seats with many airlines. I have only ever experienced on LH to be asked prior to push-back to don the mask and test it. It was a part of the SOP, as it happened on all occasions. This may or may not have relevance, but I doubt that lack of awareness or training played any part.

[xcris]

threemiles, this is an interesting image! If true, the vertical variations can be consistent with plane's (designed) self-trim on descent at a low engine speed (i.e. unable to maintain level flight) with no moves on the respective control surfaces (elevator and pitch trim).

Question: It is possible for the A320 to descend on heading hold, wings level and autothrust disengaged?

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france-9.html#post8914431

[athonite]

Pozidrive, I think what you were struggling to say that the data wasn't statistically significant, as the data set is thankfully to small.

[Heathrow Harry]

17:36
According to Le Monde (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2kgphz_crash-de-l-a320-une-boite-noire-retrouvee-selon-cazeneuve_news), French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve has said the flight recorder will be looked at immediately and has been transferred to the Office of Investigations and Analysis,

[Trackdiamond]

Andrasz..that is Standard Ops Procedure... In all my flights i demo to my jumpseater how to test and if a crew member have them don n test.Otherwise we might be held responsible!

[DaveReidUK]

Departure was delayed by half hour.The spokeswoman VP couldnt account for why it did when interrogated by a journalist.According to FR24, the inbound DUS-BCN flight touched down a couple of minutes after the 07:55 STA, so was probably 5-10 minutes behind schedule by the time it arrived on stand.

With a 40 minute scheduled turnround, that wouldn't be enough to account for a half hour departure delay, so there may have been a technical issue.

[fireflybob]

With a 40 minute scheduled turnround, that wouldn't be enough to account for a half hour departure delay, so there may have been a technical issue.

Or a slot time?

[ILS27LEFT]

Reached cruise altitude, stayed there for just 3 minutes: exactly when "the thin unbreathable air outside, is at its greatest. Any weak spots on the fuselage resulting from metal fatigue or even corrosion can fail due to the large pressure differential"...just 3 minutes there.

"The flight data recorder monitors cabin pressure and will reveal any sudden changes. The cockpit voice recorder may have recorded the sound of any failure of the aircraft’s skin but investigators will especially listen to the pilots’ speaking voices towards the end of the cockpit voice tape"
...in this case voices will change earlier, around 8/9 mins before end of tape.

They will very likely find the following:
"A slower rate of speech, long delays in answering questions and slurred words are tell-tale signs of hypoxia"

[jugofpropwash]

"NO INDICATION OF TERRORISM IN AIRPLANE CRASH" Yes, but that does not rule it out either.

All the White House is saying is that none of the usual suspects have claimed credit for taking out the plane - and presumably, that they haven't had any recent intel that something was planned. If the White House didn't say something, then everyone would be taking "no statement" as being an indication that it was terrorist related.

[busTRE]

I think it is safe to discount the creeping depressurisation. There are several warnings that would alert the crew to this in good time. As posted earlier, at least one of these is effectively impossible to miss.

Other theories including sudden decompression are on the table