Aer Lingus - 6

[MCDU2]

More crew shortages. This time CCMs which were needed to cover other flights. Rather than bin a couple of 320 flights it was considered cost effective to hire in and release the 8 cabin crew for other flights. There was also a 737 helping out as well. Last week there were various cancellations due to flight crew shortages as well.

[EI-A330-300]

Not sure the 767 to AGP was crewing but it was to recover their T/A schedule. The aircraft that used had a delay of around 5 hours on Friday and only this morning it was more less on track, It would of cost them a lot if passengers continued to miss connections for 4 days in a row. The rest of the LH fleet was behind.

It was around 5 30 on Sat when it arrived back from AGP and then around 70 minute turnaround to JFK which takes that departure to 3h30m delay and that would be.a knock on for Sundays AGP and JFK.

[EISNN]

Aer Lingus loss widens in first half of 2013 - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Wed, Jul 31, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-loss-widens-in-first-half-of-2013-1.1480548)

I'm pretty certain the ad hoc 'Hire In' of Titan 767, 757 and 737 every couple of days has been a factor in this also. What are the costs of hiring these aircraft does anyone know?

[Hangar6]

Not so sure as this report is Jan to Jun
There were a few sub ins in may June but this contingency is built into the plan so some minor impact only.
Costs up associated with significant increase in T/A capacity , this extra capacity was all sold AND at increased average fares...not bad !

[MCDU2]

95% load factor in June alone is some doing. Not a good time to be trying to avail of staff travel!

[Sober Lark]

Interesting to note weakness in UK routes. Is this related to APD and the fact passengers can avoid transiting in UK as DUB is now served by EK and Unmentionable? Also, with the fantastic summer weather we have had here this year perhaps people won't see the need to get away this Autumn, Winter and next spring.

[EI-A330-300]

It's the little red costs that increased the losses, extended leases, staff and significant increase in airport charges because of this operation. All in all a good set of results and better than most carriers around.

They did say bookings in July were hit by the weather but they said overall bookings for second half of the year were up.

[Aerlingus231]

They're making a loss on the little red service? I thought the idea behind it was that it was a guarenteed profit no?

[EI-A330-300]

Yes at the minute with set up costs, CEO said it will be profitable.

[Aerlingus231]

Yes, I see now, just read the entire report.

[MCDU2]

I would assume the Little Red "loss" is purely down to timing differences. Loss at the moment due to front end loading of the setup costs but over the next 2-2.5 years its all guaranteed revenue regardless of yields and load factors. And if Virgin end it early then hopefully there are breakage costs for them as well.

[EI-A330-300]

According to t*witter Aer Lingus will take over ground handling for Etihad from November. Anyone confirm?

[Hangar6]

Seems logical , EI already do EY cargo , they code share , circusair are being bought by Swissport so maybe a change overdue . EI used to be big into
3rd party ground handling, funny how things evolve,
EI cater for Ek maybe EK will change to EI handling.

[EISNN]

Hope that it becomes a thing that goes across the board for the likes of ORK and SNN too. SNN used to have quite a big third handling operation. Would they go back into third party handling in LHR again, I wonder? That was an enormous operation.

[EI-A330-300]

1.141 million passengers in July up 2.9%, overall LF of 87.9%.

EI Regional 116,000 up 10.5%
EI Long Haul 116,000 up 17.2% LF of 91.4% - up 1.5%
EI Short Haul 909,000 up 0.4% LF of 85.9% - up 0.8%

http://corporate.aerlingus.com/media/corporateaerlinguscom/content/pdfs/Traffic_Statistics_July_2013.pdf

[Shamrock350]

RTE social network: Aer Lingus pilots balloting for full strike action in support of Aer Arann pilots

Insane.

[Lord Lardy]

Report is incorrect.

[Shamrock350]

Here's the RTE story.

Aer Lingus pilots balloting on Aer Arann support - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0815/468393-aer-arann-talks/)

Apparently the Aer Lingus ballot is under way this evening and will continue tonight? If that's untrue where are RTE getting their information from.

[Lord Lardy]

You can't ballot an entire pilot body in one night and if it were a case you could you must by law give 7 days notice following a ballot result for industrial action. Aer Arann are supposedly striking early next week. RTE appear to be reporting incorrect information. I'm not aware of any meeting taking place of Aer Lingus pilots tonight. Perhaps RTE are mixing the story up with an earlier report of Aer Arann pilots meeting their management for talks this evening.

[Hangar6]

Ok it's a rumour network but for the love of jaysus please think before you use rte Sri rtedailymail as a source I know it's hard to believe but rte know nothing about

Banks money industry aviation farming politics economics etc etc

Very surprised to see rte as a source here.... Oh , it's a rumour .....
Sri got it :ugh:

[Shamrock350]

Well here's a story from the Independent, yes I know another unreliable source but they claim the ballot is due to be completed next Thursday by which time Aer Arann pilots may have already come to an agreement.

Aer Lingus pilots balloted to support Aer Arann - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/aer-lingus-pilots-balloted-to-support-aer-arann-29502898.html)

They both might be unreliable sources and clueless when it comes to aviation matters but it seems very strange for both of them to report on a strike ballot that isn't happening at all. If it is untrue, Aer Lingus would have some strong words for them as this information has now gone out to a huge number of passengers.

[Hangar6]

Normally we see a select bunch of FR managers tasked with
Stirring the pot on any matter re EI or FR
Heard a rumour that allegedly Ducksie has ordered his trolls to cease
Updating pprune boards airliners etc
I do miss them tho:O

Don't worry rte mail and sindo circulation collapsed
When Internet started , my kids have never even held
A newspaper and both are working and if its not on book face or twatster it's not news

[MCDU2]

News to us that we are being balloted. Poor old rte research has really gone to pot. Only motion on the table is that we won't cross their picket lines. Which from a practical point of view would be very difficult (impossible) since our summer operations are being held together by Titan. We have no spare aircraft and certainly no crews to fly any of their routes anyways.

[Hangar6]

Picket line


Genie mac there is a phrase from the past , I wonder what the modern phrase would be...

A flash line
A pop up group

One day our industry will wonder why all those low paid staff providing low fares to the travellers and big profits for shareholders are actually outside the airport entrance refusing to work....can you imagine Ms Miley actually having to report an actual strike .? Does a journalist even have the wit to be able to report on such an event....?

Better ask the mejia for me ballot paper!

[Just a spotter]

The average industrial wage in Ireland is circa €36,000 gross. The average income is just over €40,000 gross. Remind me the pay scales for pilots in RE or EI, or for an official of IALPA for that matter.

Just over 1 in 8 of the Irish working age population is currently unemployed, nearly 1 in 4 underemployed.

If the story is true, exactly just how much public support does the union think such action would attract? "Don't cross the picket line" in support of workers employed by a separate company that supplies outsourced services to your employer ... IMHO (as a manager in the private sector and as someone for whom EI is their first choice for flights to/from this little island of ours) a completely nuts concept. I hope for the longer term future of EI's staff and shorter term for their customers, that smarter heads prevail

JAS

[ayroplain]

"Don't cross the picket line" in support of workers employed by a separate company that supplies outsourced services to your employer
Nah, the fully committed, customer focussed/friendly (described as such by another poster a few months ago) boys and girls would never do that - would they?

[rallye parachute]

Having a look on ppjn shows that half the RE lads are well below the average industrial wage.

Relating to the recent Dublin bus strike. The average bus drivers wage was in the region of €54,000 net!

[Jamie2k9]

Fair play to Aer Arann for putting all 350 staff on protective notice if pilots strike. Didn't take long for unions to come back and hold talks. Aer Arann is still loss making and staff are demanding more. Plenty of others who would happily fly RE aircraft if current staff don't want to.

Some people need to realize the current problems facing this industry.

[liffy2A]

Guys I don't post much, but I want you to know the facts. I have worked for years in Aer Arann. I had to leave because of the pay. You all can talk about average wages and the happy to have a job. The facts are it costs close to 100k privately to train as a pilot which is all self funded. Think of the repayments on that. PPJN can say what it likes about a new First Officers salary in AA is 28,000 euros with a captains at 54,000 euros. After tax an FO gets 2200 to 2300 net a captain gets 3800 to 4000 net.Now take the repayment of 1000 euros out of that for training repayments for at least 9 years and do the math.1200 to1300 for an FO per month to live in Dublin or Cork and to be within an hour of an airport for standby reasons. Aer Arann/Aerlingus want the company to be a regional like in the states, shinny new green planes with people working in Bars restaurants to make ends meat.Remember the Colgan report? Where is that company now? Most papers and Pprunes will shout shame shame ,you should be happy to have a job. Where do you draw the line? New planes coming/private company you think they are not making money with all the expansion and new aircraft? If they are not someone seriously needs to be sacked 115,000 pax a month with 12 ATRs. Starbucks UK haven't made a profit in 20 years either! People if you want professionals you got to pay a professional wage. Tell me what level of service do you want on your Aer Lingus flight? 1st world standards at 3rd world costs.

[waffler]

Well said Liffy2A.
While people are entitled to their opinion, let it be an informed opinion.

[MCDU2]

Plenty of others who would happily fly RE aircraft if current staff don't want to. And because of wannabes like you all to willing to make stupid comments and jump into the breach its no wonder that the average salary at AA is only circa 30k per annum. With an average that low I would hate to think what someone like you joining would get paid. Out of that meagre salary you would then need to pay off the ATR rating which used to be over inflated not to mention any training costs. Then there is the small wee issue of surviving in one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world. Its no wonder people left in droves.

[Just a spotter]

L2A

Good points and well made.

However, a direct entry FO into a "regional" carrier like RE is most likely at the very start of their career as a pilot. Their qualification, all be it expensive to achieve, is analogous/comparable to a college degree (BA/BSc). A starting salary of circa €28,000 would be very much at the upper end of what a college graduate could expect with a 1st class honours degree entering the work force in Ireland today (some legal, science or IT related roles may pay a little more for an exceptional graduate, but very few). Also, keep in mind that the average industrial and median salary figures are usually earned by people towards the middle of their career (circa 20 years in).

From the official stats at the start of 2013 (the CSO Quarterly National Household Survey) ... and keep in mind that this is Irish household income, not individual ...



33% of households have a gross income of less than €30,000
56% of households have a gross income of less than €50,000
62% of households have a gross income below the average (mean) household income of €56,500
The top 30% of households have a gross income of more than €70,000 per annum
The top 20% of households have a gross income of more than €80,000 per annum
14% of household have a gross income above €100,000 per annum
2% of households have gross incomes above €200,000 per annum

For individuals the figures reveal;



The top 5% of individuals in the income distribution have an income of more than €78,000 per annum
The top 1.5% of individuals in the income distribution have an income of more than €120,000 per annum
The top 1% of individuals in the income distribution have an income of more than €140,000 per annum


Half way through their career, where would the average pilot's income sit?


I accept that the job is demanding. I also accept that the industry (globally) has probably pushed a little too far on hours/fatigue. That said, over their career a pilot has higher than average earning potential and in that light the initial cost of the training and the first few years of relatively lower pay should be viewed as a personal investment.

JAS

[Coupled_To_Me]

JAS

My understanding from talking to a friend with RE, who I trained with is:

The yr 1 FO starts on 28K and remains on 28K for the rest of his or her career as an FO. No payscale. No increments.

If he/she becomes a Capt, starts on 50k, and remains on 50k till retirement. No payscales. No increments. No pension. I think L2A's Command figures were slightly excessive.

[EI-A330-300]

MCDU2

His comment is right, I have just read another forum where people were complaining that Aer Arann wouldn't take them on.

[Just a spotter]

CTM

thanks for the additional info. I don't know of any private sector jobs that come with an associated pay scale. Increases are not guaranteed and many will have experienced salary reductions over the last few years.

I doubt RE are looking for career people, rather they are keeping costs low by recruiting lower hours individuals and benefiting from their hour building (which the individual ultimately benefits from when they move to a higher paying operator). The business model is most likely to be different to the larger/legacy carriers.

That said, €50K per year is a very good salary in Ireland, even if the place is very expensive to live in.

JAS

[Coupled_To_Me]

The vast majority of airlines in Europe, most of them private companies, have pay scales for their pilots. Even Ryanair, I believe.

50k, is one of the lowest if not lowest salaries for an Airline Captain in western Europe.

A large percentage of low hour pilots coupled with a high turnover of pilots will inevitably result in more and more incidents and accidents.

[liffy2A]

Thanks for the posts. I want to add I have no hidden agenda with unions. The figures I gave are to the best of my knowledge. I take your point JAS about 28k starting third level education is no where near 100k to train.There is no pension and job security is minimal compared to any other profession. Personally it will take me over 12 years to pay it back. The salary is fixed at these rates since 2010 after the 10% pay cut. There has not been an increase in wages in AA for over 10 years all through the Celtic tiger era.Your argument is it is a stepping stone airline to get experience, I have had too. They guys looking to strike are trying to make it a place to work long term at home.So they do not have to move to Australia, Middle East like so many others. To give you an average approx 30 guys with over 4 year experience have left in the last 2 years because of the pay.For example Virgin Australia operate ATRs there paying FO's the same as a captains salary in Arann. You have to compare jobs with jobs not average wages in countries/households. Then you just have Cuba. Yes it's a pain in the ass for the travelling public but its the last form of defence for Arann as a place to work LONGTERM. Now lets just go back to giving out about those nasty doctors,nurse,teachers, who don't pay taxes that will not work for minimum wages. How dare they!

[brian_dromey]

No one in saying pilots should, work for minimum wage, but 28k is not a terrible staring salary, admittedly less when trying repayments are taken into account.
The reality is that an airline like RE does not want long-term career pilots. Their payscale (or alleged lack thereof) makes that clear.

What RE are offering is the ability to come home every night, being based near to where your family/life are without uprooting. People make choices. Not everyone is motivated by a massive bank balance, so I don't think it's fair to say that pilots at RE are necessailry under/overpaid. Many of the crews I have met on RE flights are with Arann for exactly that reason. A 100k salary at BA ain't much good if you spend more time miserable in a Travel Inn in Crawley than at home with your family.

[Shamrogue]

Yes 100K to train is alot of lids.

If you don't progress then you are looking at 20 years of 1000.00 a month out of your salary - but we assume you'll progress.

Those of us who've spent 4 years in college will come in at the bones of 50K (that was 20 years ago). with digs etc. So education is not cheap. Again we've had to make repayments where necessary. I don't know what a college education will cost now.

Then like First Offers it's how well we get on........ie we use our degree to earn as much as we can. Or in the case of a pilot you work your way up the ladder and airline hop.

Most people in any job have issues with salaries in some shape or fashion. Look at people who start business's - they might borrow against their house, or savings - sink it into a business and the business goes bang.

It is the career you signed up for. You were aware of the pitfalls before you began.

Regards
Shamrogue

[liffy2A]

So your saying 1200 1300 euros a month is acceptable to take home before, rent,transport bills a month in modern day Cork,Shannon,Dublin Brian? Ok you may upgrade in 4 years if your lucky.Honestly? I will not even start about paying a mortgage or car loan because the banks will not even entertain you with a pilot job in Arann. Then they will ask you a letter of your contract about how much you earn. FOs contract will state 30k a year, but you turn around and tell them I only earn 28k as you can see from my pay slips. The reason for this is when the pay cut in 2010 when Paul Schulz was CEO. He walked in and told everyone it was totally illegal but if they didn't do it the company would close. People did it and we're happy to do if for the survival of the company.(that doesn't make news) problem is now Aer Arann haven't been even honouring there contract of employment for over 3 years.

[Hangar6]

Please can we move to Re thread?
I think it's a low salary for FO , and there is only one way to sort it and IALPA are well able to get it sorted ....now back to EI???

[Jack1985]

RE strike has been called off for ballot on a negotiated pay agreement

[Tooloose]

This is a great result for the pilots, a clear demonstration of the effectiveness of worker unity and proof of the need for a strong union as a defence against greedy employers.

[riptack]

University education is heavily subsidised in Ireland with citizen students only paying max registration fees of €2,500 per year (€10k for a 4 year degree), and possibly zero depending on their family circumstances.

I don't think that's comparable to a pilot who has privately funded his/her own training to €100k. Surely we'll get to a situation where good candidates won't train as pilots as the deferred reward of a low salary is not worth it.

[mart901]

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/ryanair-ordered-sell-aer-lingus-stake-063312623.html)

[Epsomdog]

Even more interesting!

Aer Lingus held merger talks prior to Ryanair bid - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10274830/Aer-Lingus-held-merger-talks-prior-to-Ryanair-bid.html)

[MCDU2]

The article was from January.

[Aerlingus231]

Irish Echo | Ryanair is pressing bid for Aer Lingus

Well if this is correct FR will still press for a takeover.

I was going to say "Oh FFS :ugh: ", but that's dated from the 28th of January... :rolleyes:

Edit: Beaten to it. :ok:

[j636]

Oh sorry, it came up as 6 hours old online. Thank god its an old one.

[Hangar6]

No subbing for over. Week, this is good to see, or is it just that the fleet is really being sweated as well as the crews? Including line maintainable ,

[DollarBill]

Someone asked about EI handling EY from November......seems to be on the money. Looks like it is happening.

Re EI hire-ins......peak season seems to be over so hopefully no more Titan subs. Mueller confirmed to some staff about a month ago that they fecked up the staff numbers and that sick leave levels were not higher than normal.
They have the short term lease of EI-FCC to cover fleet issues, and the short term contract F/O's to cover Flight deck isues. However they halted cabin crew recruitment in May.....then discovered that they were well off on the estimated numbers required.

[EI-A330-300]

Flat bed seats will be offered to business passengers from 2015 while EI are unlikely to expand Eastbound from DUB as competition is high and it likely won't be profitable. Increased frequency will come before new routes.

[EI-A330-300]

EI have announced a profit revision to 60 million for the year, slightly down on last year saying that it won't be able to recover after a drop in bookings in July due to the good weather. Capacity to be cut by around 3%.

[EISNN]

nothing to do with daily Titan hire ins so?

[EI-A330-300]

Indeed but also yield on SH was down around 4% in August, when we know Septembers average yield on SH I think we will see why they have issued the warning. Overall only a very small revision and nothing much to worry about.

[racedo]

Indeed but also yield on SH was down around 4% in August, when we know Septembers average yield on SH I think we will see why they have issued the warning. Overall only a very small revision and nothing much to worry about.

Interesting that FR called this on their business and everybody claiming they got it wrong.

Small revision in numbers but a bad winter on T/A could make a huge impact v quickly.

[Hangar6]

Good to see extra 4 Boston r.trips for the winter, EI must be doing something very right on USA routes as DL takin an 8 week ATL break for the first time , advance bookings very strong but Uk market is not so hot, up on last year , BA reductions will help of course but all those soccer and rugby fans are saving their money it seems, tough times ahead for sure.
EIR got their fourth new ATR yesterday and B757 due in SNn in Dec,
Wasn't MUeller smart to get that A330 contract for Novair this winter , steady hands these days.

[EI-A330-300]

Racedo

Back in July I was the first or one of the first to say that airlines would issue profit warnings due to the good weather. Ryanair and Aer Lingus were first but they won't be the last.


T/a is doing well and ahead of last year but a little weak, it would take a lot before it starts making any sort of losses.

[isayoldchap]

There is no doubt that the good weather this summer has impacted on all airlines, however let's examine Aer Lingus a little closer. Hire in bill running somewhere between 5 & 10 million euros due to messing up basic man power requirements over the busy months. Also it would be interesting to know how the Virgin Red side show is performing, I believe the penalising nature of the contract signed with Virgin is horrendous . One minute late pushing back off stand = €€€ in fines to Aer Lingus.

Somebody sanctioned all of this , I wonder will there be accountability ...

[ryan2000]

The old saying about never put all your eggs in one basket holds through for airlines as well. Many of them have been putting more and more of them in the bucket and spade basket in recent years and this leaves them very vulnerable when we do get a good Summer. People behave very irrationally when it comes to weather and will probably be in optimistic mood about another fine Summer next year.

[mart901]

If people are having staycations due to good weather it doesn't matter where a/c are heading, people are staying put - that's the issue. The reason EI, FR and others have focused on bucket and spade routes is they perform, and research points to the fact that during austere economic conditions people trim off the slightly more whimsical city breaks but keep that one main summer holiday. As aviation enthusiasts we may find looking at route maps that are concentrated round Spain etc boring but in the end it works, and without profit there is little to keep airlines afloat these days.

[MCDU2]

My finger in the air would indicate that approximately a third of the 9m downward revision was cash out the door to Titan. The silence is deafening from management whenever the question is put to them as to the quantum. Also as to if any heads will roll.

[EI-A330-300]

Aer Lingus still in talks about merger, says Mueller - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-still-in-talks-about-merger-says-mueller-29575732.html)

A key note in the article.

Mr Mueller told an Austrian aviation journal this week that the talks remain ongoing. He refused to be drawn on the negotiations but said a potential partner would have to carefully consider their involvement with Aer Lingus when Ryaniar retains a near 30pc stake in its smaller rival.

[EI-BUD]

Mr Mueller said that a merger with another airline would be driven by
complementary markets and that its slots could also be a catalyst. Aer Lingus
controls valuable takeoff and landing slots at Heathrow (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Heathrow_Airport).


IAG is written all over this in my view. I have always questioned BA's decision to increase DUB LHR to 8 daily. Not saying they cannot make a go of this, but given the sheer lack of slots for long haul and new long haul aircraft coming on stream at a rate of 2 per month. Come next March the demand for slots could be quite different to now.

I see EI being exclusive on DUB and BHD to LHR with EI employing much larger aircraft, 330 on morning serivces ex DUB and possibly 321 ex BHD. BA exiting DUB and BHD would see them gain up to 15 daily slots, though EI would probably need an extra 3 daily BHD slots.

If BE had not signalled exit on LGW, I was not holding out hope for EI at BHD. But given that EI will have this route exclusively and the Euro routes are doing great, I can see EI being the sole carrier.

This probably sounds far fetched, but from my perspective BA is the natural partner for EI, and BA's long haul fleet plans and long haul aspiraitons make this credible. WW has said pension deficit puts them off EI, but question is what is the value of up to 15 prime slots ex LHR over the long term without cutting passenger numbers on Island of Ireland - London flights???

[Skipness One Echo]

Not saying they cannot make a go of this, but given the sheer lack of slots for long haul and new long haul aircraft coming on stream at a rate of 2 per month. Come next March the demand for slots could be quite different to now.
It's not a net gain of two a month, the B763s and older B744s are getting parked as the B788s and the A388s arrive. Chengdu and Austin are the only new routes for 2014 thus far. I think if BA want to serve the Irish market, it's important to have the BA product and presence in place. They already co-habitate with close partners Finnair and Iberia in Europe, I don't see BA's customer base asking for an Aer Lingus monopoly out of LHR to DUB/BHD.

[CCR]

If BA were to take over Aer Lingus, that would put an end to their expansion of long haul services from Dublin, no matter was their PR people will say.

[Just a spotter]

IMHO, from a purely business perspective, EI offers nothing to IAG other than the Heathrow slots. Also only two airlines currently offer DUB-LHR services and from a completion perspective allowing them to merge would be just as anti-competivie as a take over of EI by FR.

The DUB-LHR service is seen as strategic for economic growth by successive Irish governments so I can't see any arrangement that threatens the capacity as being considered or allowed. Equally, I suspect the unions would be very worried by any IAG approach with the possibility of job losses as admin functions get shifted from DUB to lower cost centralised IAG facilities in the UK or Spain.

Operators from outside the EU might offer a better fit and deeper pockets.

JAS

[j636]

If I was a betting person I think a possible merger will be outside Europe and not EY. It won't be BA. I would look more towards the US side.

[EI-BUD]

I couldnt see IAGs involvement putting an end to TA expansion, as the void would be filled quickly by US carriers. Moreover, there are opportunities to grow interlining traffic ex Europe, from many airports that BA do not provide service to as well as from some UK airports.



EI offers nothing to IAG other than the Heathrow slots.


JAS this is precisely what I am saying, heathrow slots, not those of EI, but their own slots, releasing 8 daily slot pairs to the BA network could result in 8 new long haul routes as a daily frequency which is a serious expansion. Depressing traffic on Dublin USA would also drive demand for more slots for LHR DUB....

Watch this space.

[racedo]

IMHO, from a purely business perspective, EI offers nothing to IAG other than the Heathrow slots. Also only two airlines currently offer DUB-LHR services and from a completion perspective allowing them to merge would be just as anti-competivie as a take over of EI by FR.

But you forget that for EI its NOT FR so its acceptable and isn't WW one of their own so they will say its safe in his hands .......................never mind that Cardiff easily accommodates all heavy maintenance and admin functions can be anywhere.

Mind you I can see Ryanair selling on the shares to IAG relatively easily and reckon MO'L will have a smile doing so as well.

[Hangar6]

It will be UA, two slot pairs in Lhr to UA
EI take over WAS EWR as 350 S arrive ex Roi UK inc BFS

Mol will smile if he only looses say 200mill on share disposal , maybe he is easy
Pleased but it'll be a while yet , which is a shame normally he is on the ball !

[Omnipresent]

I think IAG would only be interested if they are confident they could secure near full control. IAG went out of its way to gain near full ownership of Vueling and wasn't satisfied with getting 90%+.

Aside from IAG, I think EY would be interested in increasing its stake to 49%. Air France KLM and Lufthansa can be ruled out.

[racedo]

Mol will smile if he only looses say 200mill on share disposal , maybe he is easy
Pleased but it'll be a while yet , which is a shame normally he is on the ball !

Fraid not as FR has already written down value of the shareholding as its required to do. Impact was taken years and years ago and you don't double count it.

Therefore any sale impact just means lots of cash in.
Average share price FR bought at was €2.52 and spent €392M (2007 annual report)

Your figure of €200 Million loss v original would be right IF in the event of a takeover the price was at €1.24 (today €1.49). (Merger is between 2 equal parties........IF it was IAG / EI it is a takeover.)

At that price (€1.24) FR would get €192 Million in cash.......at €1.49 (closing price today) FR would get €232 Million..........assumming a takeover may potentially add a bit to share price then every 1 cent increase in price give FR approx €1.5 Million.

[MCDU2]

I love your theory. He lost his shirt on the shares but because he has booked the loss already you think of it as a positive that the cash will be coming in. Interesting view. You must be in PR for FR.

Also WW is no friend of AL. He showed his true colours wanting to join in the MOL "remedies package" bandwagon. I can't see IAG wanting a merger, there is no point as WW will still be plotting how to strip AL of the slots and get it without the burden of working through the pension issues etc.

From a personal career perspective and assuming that we were "tuped" like the BMI folks it would be a great deal for me. BA staff travel is the best in the world. Access to big comfy seats. Short haul commands much quicker than AL or the option of sticking it out on the wide body fleet for a few years more and seeing the world. It would get me out of the Irish tax system which would fill me with no end of joy. But life doesn't tend to work out like that unfortunately.

[Jack1985]

Aer Lingus reportedly came close to a deal with Virgin Atlantic before Delta stepped in, does this not give you guys ranting on about the BA (IAG) merger theory any inkling that you could indeed be off the mark? which tbh I've been hearing for years. There's three groups I believe Aer Lingus will stay clear of, Ryanair (guaranteed), IAG and Air France/KLM. Nobody seems to be mentioning Lufthansa Group and carriers in the US. JetBlue/United spring to mind.

[Hangar6]

UA , even have a three trial done , systems integrated some of the approval hurdles cleared....

[brian_dromey]

jetBlue and United could not 'merge' with EI in the traditional sense. They could own up to 49% of the airline, but no more, same with Ethiad or any non-EU carrier. B6 have already discounted interest in mergers, I believe. UA are going through integration of UA into CO at the moment, so can't see them being too interested either.

LH group - not sure how interested they would be in a heavily Leisure/VFR business on the periphery of Europe, their experinece with bmi would suggest they have little interest or appetite in this market. They canned almost all the charter flying, all the long-haul from MAN, the point-to-point form LHR and so-on. If it's a German airline you are after AirBerlin would be more likely, in their guise as Ethiad's European arm.

[dublinaviator]

Willie Walsh has already ruled out any interest in Aer Lingus based on Ryanair's shareholding. Given that one of the preconditions mentioned for a possible merger was accepting the current share structure, I can't see it being IAG. And even if it were I would see it as a hostile takeover given a successful Dublin hub is not in BAs interest and they will likely seek to funnel traffic lost to Aer Lingus Regional back through LHR.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say it was FlyBe (despite their backdoor deal with Ryanair. If anything it showed their expression of interest in a merger.)

[Jack1985]

They could own up to 49% of the airline, but no more, same with Ethiad or any non-EU carrier. B6 have already discounted interest in mergers, I believe. UA are going through integration of UA into CO at the moment, so can't see them being too interested either.


That's true look how much control Delta has at Virgin with 49%. Didn't Aer Lingus say flights to the West Coast in Summer 2012 would not return due to predicted losses only to announce 12-months later a return, businesses change everyday - so ruling out something is never long-term. The United/Continental merger has been completed for over a year now? The only things remaining being the repainting of aircraft and branding at airports.

their experinece with bmi would suggest they have little interest or appetite in this market.

You seem to forget to point out how troubled bmi was before being purchased by Lufthansa. They simply put the wrong CEO in place to deal with the mountain of problems bmi had, if you want to point fingers for its failure I firmly suggest you start with Sir Michael Bishop.

[Just a spotter]

Report from RTÉ, 17th Sept 2013

"We don't see anything attractive to buy or merge with in Europe at the moment," Willie Walsh, IAG's CEO, told the World Low Cost Airlines Congress in London today.

IAG sees opportunities outside of Europe - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0917/474778-iag-sees-opportunities-outside-of-europe/)

JAS

[ayroplain]

LOL, what was WW doing at the World Low Cost Airlines Congress?

Great to see his determination to take on the unions.

[840]

It would be very hard to sell any link up with IAG, AF/KLM or Lufthansa as a merger. There may be some possibility with one of Lufthansa's subsidiaries though.

It's hard to see who would be a suitable merger partner. You'd assume that there would would be no desire to link up with an airline that is loss-making or has free-cash problems. You'd also want to see route networks that compliment each other and the potential for savings on admin and maintenance services.

Those conditions have me frawing a blank. SAS and Finnair look like the closest, but I really can't see any route synergies there.

[racedo]

I love your theory. He lost his shirt on the shares but because he has booked the loss already you think of it as a positive that the cash will be coming in. Interesting view. You must be in PR for FR.


MO'L is not Ryanair and Ryanair isn't MO'L.

Cash spent 6-7 years ago so any money received by Ryanair now is a big plus or do you think a potential of cash of couple of hundred million € coming in to any business is negative ?

[Jack1985]

It also seems to be the case Aer Lingus continues to overbook flights by 10% according to the mirror. Couple bumped from flight by Aer Lingus and sent to wrong city - Irish Mirror Online (http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/couple-bumped-flight-aer-lingus-2278600)

[racedo]

It would be very hard to sell any link up with IAG, AF/KLM or Lufthansa as a merger. There may be some possibility with one of Lufthansa's subsidiaries though.

It's hard to see who would be a suitable merger partner. You'd assume that there would would be no desire to link up with an airline that is loss-making or has free-cash problems. You'd also want to see route networks that compliment each other and the potential for savings on admin and maintenance services.

Those conditions have me frawing a blank. SAS and Finnair look like the closest, but I really can't see any route synergies there.

Pretty much as I called it months ago, limited range of options as IAG / AF/KLM and Lufty are the biggies.

EY will NOT be allowed buy 49% nor anybody else will be allowed to hold just 49%. Stock Exchange takeover rules would require them to bid for the whole company and they can only own 49.9%.

The stock exchange reason behind this is to prevent someone owning 49.99% and then having someone else owning .02% and holding overall control of a company while destroying the investment of other shareholders.

Virgin was different as it was NOT listed on any Stock Exchange.

[j636]

It also seems to be the case Aer Lingus continues to overbook flights by 10% according to the mirror. Couple bumped from flight by Aer Lingus and sent to wrong city - Irish Mirror Online (http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/couple-bumped-flight-aer-lingus-2278600)


oh dear but on the up side EI get 180 back of the 400 they had to pay :rolleyes:

I don't think they 10% overbook but on all sun routes passengers don't bother turning up for flights and DUB-AGP has lots of capacity available most of the time. On this day 2 passengers were not able to fly so if that was the A330 flight then 324 would of being booked and 322 able to fly. 30 more passengers would need to be left behind to overbook by 10%. And the A321 does most evening flights and 19 more passengers wouldn't of being able to fly.

Wifi actually launched yesterday, 10 euro per hour in economy class.

[brian_dromey]

Jack,

I've keenly followed bmi for many years. You seem to forget that LH had a minority holding and seats on the board in bmi since 1999. The condition of bmi could have been absolutely no surprise to LH, but they absolutely did not want the airline at the time it was forced on them by Bishop, to the point of an out-of-court settlement.

Non-EU "merger" partners are unlikely, due to regulatory requirements. There aren't a lot of likey EU partners. flyBe has a market value in the region of GBP 68 million. Hardly a financial merger, more a buy-out, although operationally much more so. But what does flyBe add to the EI network? No connectivity with DUB, no relaibly profitable UK operations, no strong, reliable brand to market.

[VanBosh]

Turkish was mentioned previously too I think. Could work for Europe with westbound pax via DUB and eastbound via IST.

[racedo]

Turkish was mentioned previously too I think. Could work for Europe with westbound pax via DUB and eastbound via IST.

Non EU as per my previous post.
Why would they seek a minority shareholding ?

[Jack1985]

I've keenly followed bmi for many years. You seem to forget that LH had a minority holding and seats on the board in bmi since 1999. The condition of bmi could have been absolutely no surprise to LH, but they absolutely did not want the airline at the time it was forced on them by Bishop, to the point of an out-of-court settlement.

''experience with bmi would suggest they have little interest or appetite in this market''

As you say they had a minority holding when Sir Michael Bishop was calling the shots, Lufthansa aren't going to have little interest in an airline which at that time were what the second largest slot carrier in LHR after the 2009 merger? It's a case of highly overpaid staff working no where near enough hours and a cost base which made them uncompetitive - And it hurts me to say that because the actual staff at bmi where some of the best in the industry. It takes time to turnaround that sort of airline which had lost £157m in the year before the merger with LH Group. And had estimated losses of an estimated £320m in just 3 years (by 2010). Also bmibaby was losing £25m a year and we weren't informed about how bmi regional was doing. If you compare with Aer Lingus, they are in the top 10 airline bracket when it comes to profitability, I believe they had margins of over 7% in 2010 and they've improved significantly financially-wise since then. They are also close to a deal on the pension problem which seems the last problem for them after the Ryanair shareholding which seems to be pretty much sorted.

My point is don't rule out airlines when you're comparing other mergers which are nowhere near alike.

[VanBosh]

Non EU as per my previous post.
Why would they seek a minority shareholding ?

True. Wouldn't work, I overlooked the fact Turkey ain't in the EU.

[racedo]

True. Wouldn't work, I overlooked the fact Turkey ain't in the EU.

Number of options become quite limited when that is considered.

[Una Due Tfc]

Those of you mentioning long haul out of Belfast, remember that an A320 or 738 can't even use City fully loaded due to the short runway, hence why FR pulled out. If EI wanted to go long haul from Belfast they would have to go back to Aldergrove. Given that Aldergrove only has a single UA 757 to EWR everyday, I don't think there is a market there. The A350 can't use Dublin fully loaded for the same reason, will only be able to go to ORD, YYZ, JFK, BOS and possibly MCO with a full passenger load. I wonder what EI has planned for them, since they have got 9 on order.......

[EI-BUD]

This is an interesting debate, though given the references to the LHR slots, this would lead to a belief that it will be from a subset of LHR carriers.

Draw from that and couple with suggestions that it may be unlikely to be a non EU carrier the list is significantly reduced. EI may eye joining an underperforming carrier, one with opportunities to improve. Like the suggestion that VS was on the cards and thankfully that didn't come to pass as VS could bring the entired operation down ala Swiss and Sabena in a sort of way.

SAS has had its troubles and is a significant LHR slot holder, opportunity to improve.

Aegean is trying to complete the take over of OA and is meeting some hurdles, perhaps bringing EI into the mix as a joint partner could be something to consider. But what could EI bring to the table? Perhaps a replication of EI model in Greece, Aegean in and out of LHR quite a bit.

Still I see IAG as the one, despite WW's protestations to the contrary, at the end of the day if he signalled his intentions, what would this do to the valuation/ share price, could be expensive.

It would seem likely that Etihad and FR will remain on the share register, 3% for EY and potentially a 5% shareholding for FR post the wrangling with EU competition authority. I would expect that FR will hold onto to some shareholding to keep in the picture.

If we looked at this through the following filter, what EU airlines:

Serve Heathrow
Have challenges and perhaps need a partner
Operate similar fleets
Could benefit from a merger with EI given its TA operations and relatively low cost model (vis a vis other legacy carriers)
The answer possibly on this shortlist?

EI-BUD

[racedo]

It would seem likely that Etihad and FR will remain on the share register, 3% for EY and potentially a 5% shareholding for FR post the wrangling with EU competition authority. I would expect that FR will hold onto to some shareholding to keep in the picture.


Once a company has 90% of shares in a takeover then can legally acquire the other 10%, its (legally has to be) at the same price as they acquired all the rest of the shares so holding out to the last minute gains zilch. Manchester United supporters found this out when Glazers bought it.

[Hangar6]

Don't worry folks ducksie told me he has given up on these shares so we can at last look forward to a joint venture westbound and the acquisition eastbound

Ducksie told me today 250 mill was an acceptable loss and job is safe
And who says shareholders have intelligence !

[Omnipresent]

@MCDU2 If IAG bought Aer Lingus, it would not be merged into BA. It would remain a separate operating subsidiary. I don't know what that would mean for staff travel rights across IAG subsidiaries.

Whenever asked about whether IAG is interested in buying more airlines their response is usually "we're not interested in anyone at the moment" and it has in its short life bought bmi and Vueling.

I can see some attractions for IAG, namely the LHR slots and the transatlantic potential. However, this is not quite as game changing as bmi or Vueling. Also as Aer Lingus and BA both serve LHR-DUB a potentially material number of Aer Lingus slots would have to be divested to any willing new entrant on the LHR-DUB route.

[mathers_wales_uk]

You can now rule out IAG at the moment as Willie Walsh has just stated no further acquisitions in Europe for now as there maybe better value elsewhere around the globe. View article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2013/09/18/iag-boss-rules-out-further-deals-in-europe/)

[Just a spotter]

The A350 can't use Dublin fully loaded for the same reason, will only be able to go to ORD, YYZ, JFK, BOS and possibly MCO with a full passenger load. I wonder what EI has planned for them, since they have got 9 on order....... The issues surrounding DUB having one of (if not the) shortest main runway of any primary airport serving a European capital have been discusses around this parish a number of times. When EI were placing their A350 order the new 28R/10L was still expected to be built this decade and it was planned to be 3110m long, as opposed to the 2637m of the current runway.

JAS

[racedo]

You can now rule out IAG at the moment as Willie Walsh has just stated no further acquisitions in Europe for now as there maybe better value elsewhere around the globe. View article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2013/09/18/iag-boss-rules-out-further-deals-in-europe/)

No company is going to announce their intentions because in doing so they will be required to make a bid as it will impact the shareprice and stock exchanges don't like companies stating something and not doing it.

Statement from IAG is correct at exact time it was made, 5 minutes after that it was history and no longer applies.

IAG will make a bid IF it is in their interests to do so, I'm not convinced as of this minute it is, tomorrow well that is a different matter.

[840]

I would personally think that it is more in IAG's interest to acquire a decent stake in EI (c. 20%) than to acquire the whole of the business.

That way, they can block a takeover by a competitor, but not run into the kind of anti-monopoly problems that a full takeover would produce.

I wouldn't be at all shocked if Ryanair sold a large chunk of their shares to IAG in one go.

[johnrizzo2000]

Any update on the plans for the 757's, as in delivery date and final configuration/crew compliment?

The seat map on EI.com is only showing 8 Business class seats on the 757s now?? They were originally meant to be configured with 12?

[EISNN]

The configuration on the 757 is 12. The first row of seats are just not selectable on-line for safety reasons I'm guessing.

[brian_dromey]

I believe 5 cabin crew is the minimum for 757 on the Irish register.
The configuration will be 12J 162Y, PTVs and AVOD throughout, near lie-flats in business, apparently.

[Una Due Tfc]

"The issues surrounding DUB having one of (if not the) shortest main runway of any primary airport serving a European capital have been discusses around this parish a number of times. When EI were placing their A350 order the new 28R/10L was still expected to be built this decade and it was planned to be 3110m long, as opposed to the 2637m of the current runway."

It would be very easy to convert those orders into A330's, they have deferred delivery of some, but not all of them. First 4 arrive in 2015 I believe?

[EI-A330-300]

After a summer crewing problems have ended, there LH services have a run of bad look. Over the last while a tech fault on departure from ORD, fuel system fire in BOS and one A330 struck by lighting twice within days while doing DUB-AGP route. B767 and B777 had be leased to cover.

Its has being a costly few months for them however its reported the summer costs were around the 2 million mark as both EI and Titan have a long standing agreement.

[eick320]

Aer Lingus cabin crew in strike ballot threat - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1003/478207-aer-lingus/)

[EI-A330-300]

It won't come to strike, crew in SNN will be told to fly the B757 or sacked. They have done it before.

Shannon based EI staff always have something to moan or threaten strike. Once the state sells there stake you will be lucky if EI keep SNN on the map.

[Aerlingus231]

Oy Vey... :ugh:

[Tom the Tenor]

How many seats are there to be on the 757s to be flown by Aer Lingus. If it is more than 199 seats there has to be at least five cabin crew involved in the crew and if there are 12 biz class seats maybe there will be another crew member too????

One would have thought the strong snn lobby would be so thrilled to have year round flights to New York etc that they would be quiet and give thanks!

Makes it interesting I suppose.

[EI-A330-300]

How many seats are there to be on the 757s to be flown by Aer Lingus. If it is more than 199 seats there has to be at least five cabin crew involved in the crew and if there are 12 biz class seats maybe there will be another crew member too????

One would have thought the strong snn lobby would be so thrilled to have year round flights to New York etc that they would be quiet and give thanks!

Makes it interesting I suppose.

B757's will have 174 seats and 4 crew of course the unions would like 5, it would probably be to much hard work for the 4 crew!

[vkid]

"Shannon based EI staff always have something to moan or threaten strike."

When was the last time and what was the issue? Serious Question.

Also numbers down 4.4% in September. Long haul and Regional up so European routes seem to be suffering,.

Aer Lingus passenger numbers down in September · Business ETC (http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/aer-lingus-septemper-1113649-Oct2013/)

[Jack1985]

There was an extra Sunday last September which would change that figure, but overall it seems European routes are down slightly. Aer Lingus also continued some seasonal routes to the very end of September instead of mid-September which lead to lower LF's.

[racedo]

There was an extra Sunday last September which would change that figure,

Nope there were 5 in 2012 and 5 in 2013...............Saturday yup but you get Monday instead or are you saying more people travel EI on Saturday than Monday !!!!!

[j636]

Short Haul passengers were down 4.4% but they also cut capacity by 4.6%, they made changes once the weather picked up in July, which would be a key month for September bookings.

Racedo
I would say on Saturdays in summer they have more passengers than Mondays, they have way more flights anyway. Of course Monday and Friday in winter.

[Aerlingus231]

I'd imagine Monday would be a key day for business routes, but Saturday and Friday are certainly much more important for Holiday routes.

[Jack1985]

Nope there were 5 in 2012 and 5 in 2013

Yikes, thats why I took up ordinary Maths! :O

are you saying more people travel EI on Saturday than Monday

In the Summer, definitely yes and in certain aspects of the Winter season also I think you'll find EI actually carry more passengers in say February on peak days like Thursdays through to Sundays then they would on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays!

[Jack1985]

Just been told Aer Lingus have decided to axe plans for 40 new cabin crew at Shannon, the RTE app on my iPhone keeps closing can anyone confirm???

[Aerlingus231]

Does that mean the dispute is over, or does that mean they've gone the other way?

Anyone able to actually fill in what's going on?
At the minute there's 8 cabin crew on 1 aircraft, come March, there'll be 4 crew on two aircraft, so still 8. Exactly where is the union seeing the issue here? Also, if there's only 176 seats on the 757, and there's usually 174 seats on an A320 and they do fine with 4 crew on the A320, why do they think they need another member of cabin crew for the 757?

[ayroplain]

New Aer Lingus jobs will not now go ahead - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/1004/478267-aer-lingus-numbers/)

This makes my blood boil. The biggest obstacle facing EI is not FR but these :mad: unions.

[Shamrock350]

Aer Lingus can offer their current cabin crew in Shannon the 4 per flight deal again or they can just crew the flights with staff provided from ASL who get trained up by Aer Lingus anyway. Either way it's win win situation, 4 per flight keeps costs down or ASL who would be even cheaper, unless of course this escalates to an all out strike which is unlikely IMO.

[EI-A330-300]

VkidNot to long ago maintenance staff were up in arms about being asked to relocate or get sacked. As I said before it's purely political reasons for LHR flights and T/A, they had to cut costs and this was next best thing as they couldn't close the routes while Gov own part of the carrier. I'm sure the 3 LHR slots would do well at ork and dub if they could be moved.

Nice to se management swift action this evening and in the publics eyes the unions look bad while EI don't expect much to come out of this possible strike.

Nothing mentioned about the B757 in dub for the summer, I expect siptu may not take the same line as unite.

[Skipness One Echo]

Why was SNN-LHR brought back then? It was axed when Belfast was opened and yet returned with some awful timings some time later. Those slots won't help Cork and Dublin is near saturation?

Also, and I am asking as I don't know, will four temporary worse paid contract staff give as good or poorer service than five full time EI career cabin crew? Are EI staff so bad? I have always liked them.

[Epsomdog]

will four temporary worse paid contract staff give as good or poorer service than five full time EI career cabin crew

If the EI trained contract staff operating the Little Red service are anything to go by, then Aer Lingus passengers have little to fear! They can expect a highly motivated crew offering a high standard of service, with a smile. Not much time spent counting allowances or scheming to avoid next days duty!

[racedo]

Yikes, thats why I took up ordinary Maths! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif


There but for the grace of god goes everybody


In the Summer, definitely yes and in certain aspects of the Winter season also I think you'll find EI actually carry more passengers in say February on peak days like Thursdays through to Sundays then they would on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays!

Correct me if wrong but don't schools in Ireland start back earlier, so 1st Sept would be within school term. Hence less people travelling anyway from or two holidays.

SH Mainline was down by 54k with Regional up by 13k as there may be some cannibalisation.

Had not expected Sept to be down.

[Jack1985]

Correct me if wrong but don't schools in Ireland start back earlier, so 1st Sept would be within school term. Hence less people travelling anyway from or two holidays.

They return the last week in August, all having closed early-June. But you'd be surprised how many people actually go on holidays in May and September in Ireland, a local school where I live in Cork complained of an absence rate of nearly 25% in the first two weeks of September, calling for greater regulation of children missing two weeks of the school calendar year (which by law supposedly is a max here), and its something replicated throughout Ireland really, much unlike in the UK where they are very strict with people taking their kids on holiday during school terms I understand?

The peak months of holiday travel in Ireland would really be July and August with the second half of June also very busy.

[EI-A330-300]

Why was SNN-LHR brought back then? It was axed when Belfast was opened and yet returned with some awful timings some time later. Those slots won't help Cork and Dublin is near saturation?

Also, and I am asking as I don't know, will four temporary worse paid contract staff give as good or poorer service than five full time EI career cabin crew? Are EI staff so bad? I have always liked them.

It was resumed because of political pressure, when they announced the closure it was purely for commercial reasons. Ryanair and the Government pilled on the pressure for it to be restored and it was. The route will see a large drop in capacity this winter while the slots would be well used if it wasn't operating. ORK-LHR could easily manage another flight per day.

EI have lost 163 million on SNN T/A routes between 95 and 2010, do you believe that any other carrier with no political pressure would of kept these routes with those losses.

The B757 may save the future of them but will they remain year round remains to be seen.

[johnrizzo2000]

B757's will have 174 seats and 4 crew of course the unions would like 5, it would probably be to much hard work for the 4 crew!

Exactly. It is to much work for 4 crew

Does that mean the dispute is over, or does that mean they've gone the other way?

Anyone able to actually fill in what's going on?
At the minute there's 8 cabin crew on 1 aircraft, come March, there'll be 4 crew on two aircraft, so still 8. Exactly where is the union seeing the issue here? Also, if there's only 176 seats on the 757, and there's usually 174 seats on an A320 and they do fine with 4 crew on the A320, why do they think they need another member of cabin crew for the 757?



EI's 320s operate with 4 crew and 174 seats, BUT, they operate an all economy buy onboard service, on sectors up to 4.5 hours. A T/A operation with a full service Business and Economy service cannot be done with 4 crew. All major operators across the atlantic (UA, US, DL and AA) operate with 6 crew; UA operate domestic services with 4 crew, but only offer a bar service, and meals/bar in Business.

EI unions took a realistic approach and were looking for 5, and EI have refused to sit down and talk.

EI are looking for service delivery similar to Etihad, but want the absolute minimum crew, which doesn't add up. Having flown United across the Atlantic on a 757, they offer a very good service... I doubt it would be as good if they had 50% less crew!

[EI-A330-300]

Exactly. It is to much work for 4 crew[/QUOTE

Is it to much work for 4 crew on the A320 on a 4h30m flight to TFS from DUB, SNN-JFK isn't much longer. Crew are largely done and dusted with services 2 hours into the flights.

[QUOTE]EI's 320s operate with 4 crew and 174 seats, BUT, they operate an all economy buy onboard service, on sectors up to 4.5 hours. A T/A operation with a full service Business and Economy service cannot be done with 4 crew. All major operators across the atlantic (UA, US, DL and AA) operate with 6 crew; UA operate domestic services with 4 crew, but only offer a bar service, and meals/bar in Business.

EI unions took a realistic approach and were looking for 5, and EI have refused to sit down and talk.

EI are looking for service delivery similar to Etihad, but want the absolute minimum crew, which doesn't add up. Having flown United across the Atlantic on a 757, they offer a very good service... I doubt it would be as good if they had 50% less crew!

I don't think EY standards are required from SNN.

[Aerlingus231]

While I think 4 should be fine, the consequences on one member of cabin crew becoming ill down route, might blow away the savings as they'd have to cancel the entire flight home, so 5 allows more reliability on that front.

Still though, threatening to ballot members for action is not the right move, and certainly not to shout it from the roof tops to the public looking for support, the public will be firmly on EI's side in this debate.

[johnrizzo2000]

Is it to much work for 4 crew on the A320 on a 4h30m flight to TFS from DUB, SNN-JFK isn't much longer. Crew are largely done and dusted with services 2 hours into the flights.


The workload on a TFS and a JFK are completely different; on a TFS not every passenger eats/drinks. You have a BOB service and duty free. A T/A service is far busier, and far more labour intensive, hence why every other 757 operator operates with 6 crew. You haven't flown on a T/A service in awhile if you think the service can be done in 2 hours!

I don't think EY standards are required from SNN.

EI are looking at EY's standard of service in their Business cabin, where no carts are used, and everything is plated up, like in a restaurant. However, EY have a lot more crew to do this; EI wants it done with the absolute minimum crew.

The fact of the matter is that with minimum crew, passengers, in particular the high yield Business passengers will suffer with slow service. Business Class service can easily take 3 hours Eastbound on a 330, with 2 crew serving 24 passengers, which is not good enough when passengers are paying a premium to rest. EI cannot see that operating the 757s with 4 crew will lower the levels of service provided to its passengers. If an additional crew member on each 757 is going to make the operation uneconomical, I guess the 757 plan was never going to be the money spinner they had hoped for!

I am far from a pro-union head. I am passionate about EI delivering the best service that they can. Time and time again, EI half heartedly try things; Dubai, Washington & the West Coast all spring to mind. I think the 757 operation is evidence that EI has not learnt anything,

[Aerlingus231]

Well I'm pretty sure that SNN isn't exactly a premium market. Dublin I'm sure has high demand for premium service, but I think most T/A flights into SNN don't need EY levels of service, it's mainly VFR traffic on that route.

[Jack1985]

I agree 5 crew per aircraft is whats needed, especially as the business passengers are going to need ''high maintenance'', also comparisons of a DUB-TFS sector against T/A routes are totally unrealistic, aren't passengers entitled to free bar services and meals on T/A? if so its a whole different ball game in terms of demanded service by the crew against short haul services. Management are simply trying to get the lowest possible crew number and to be the most competitive at Shannon with a much better aircraft against UA and DL, they still can with 5 crew. However as has been said, the public will be on EI's side, so the unions are going to have to be more creative than the usual, stop working and expect answers routine.

A kind of separate question, will 3 cockpit crew be required as per standard operations on the A330 fleet for T/A services?

[johnrizzo2000]

Well I'm pretty sure that SNN isn't exactly a premium market. Dublin I'm sure has high demand for premium service, but I think most T/A flights into SNN don't need EY levels of service, it's mainly VFR traffic on that route



UA attracts a decent level of high yield business passengers on their SNN-EWR service, so with a good product, EI could do well. If their was no demand for Business class, EI would operate the 757s in an all economy configuration.

Also, EI wont be just operating the 757 from Shannon; the new Dublin to Toronto route, which should attract Business passengers, will be also be on the 757. And there is nothing stopping them operating the 757 on DUB-JFK/BOS/ORD in the future.

[CallBell]

A kind of separate question, will 3 cockpit crew be required as per standard operations on the A330 fleet for T/A services?

Afaik standard operations (JFK BOS & ORD) only require 2 cockpit crew. Not sure about MCO, it might depend on length of flight?

[Jack1985]

Afaik standard operations (JFK BOS & ORD) only require 2 cockpit crew. Not sure about MCO, it might depend on length of flight?

Nope, there has always been a relief pilot on Transatlantic even to Boston which is rather short. But I'd imagine it would be pretty much the same scenario on the 757 requiring 3?

[johnrizzo2000]

SFO will be the only route with 3 pilots; all others have 2. If MCO is a longer than normal flight they may send 3

[Jack1985]

SFO will be the only route with 3 pilots; all others have 2. If MCO is a longer than normal flight they may send 3

Can you have a look at this then?:confused: Capt. Grainne Cronin retires RTÉ.ie Media Player Six One News 25 May 2010.rm - YouTube

[Una Due Tfc]

I agree they should have 5 cabin crew in their 757s. If they are going daily to JFK then they are up against DL and UA. Some of their 757s are fairly scruffy, no ptvs and they go tech quite often because they tend to be older. If EI could offer a better product than these 2 then the loads would follow. And there are still quite a number of US multinationals based in Shannon so i suspect a good business class product on EI would chase Delta away in the winter

As for the three pilots, when reading the incident report on the aileron deflection in BIRD on the way to ORD, there was definately a relief Pilot mentioned

[Aerlingus231]

I'd imagine there were three on that flight as the DUB BOS route was her last, so the other two were needed to fly home the next day.

[Aerlingus231]

As for the three pilots, when reading the incident report on the aileron deflection in BIRD on the way to ORD, there was definately a relief Pilot mentioned

Could have been an inspector / check pilot. I'm 99% sure that there's definitely only 2 pilots normally on the JFK/BOS/ORD flights.

[EI-A330-300]

The workload on a TFS and a JFK are completely different; on a TFS not every passenger eats/drinks. You have a BOB service and duty free. A T/A service is far busier, and far more labour intensive, hence why every other 757 operator operates with 6 crew. You haven't flown on a T/A service in awhile if you think the service can be done in 2 hours!


The 2 hours wasn't referring to T/A flights. Clearly going for 4 crew is for profitability and having extra crew will eat into potential profits. I suspect the A330 service is very weak if not loss making and they have to get them profitable as closing them just isn't an option.

Also, EI wont be just operating the 757 from Shannon; the new Dublin to Toronto route, which should attract Business passengers, will be also be on the 757. And there is nothing stopping them operating the 757 on DUB-JFK/BOS/ORD in the future.

DUB-YYZ is purely low cost market at the minute, Air Canada Rouge taking it over and when it was mainline only 1 or of the 7 weekly flights had business class. Air Transit more less loco to. Going for 5 crew on this just would not be an option if they want to make profit. To much risk involved carriers can't afford risks now days.

[thats right]

why would you need three crew ? its a short flight !
2 crew is all thats required :rolleyes:

[EISNN]

@JACK No. That flight was a mark of respect for Capt Cronin. There were three pilots of which one volunteered to work on her time off to mark the occassion. Standard practice with EI on their A330 operations is 2 flight deck and 8 cabin crew (min safety numbers). On a very very rare occasion there might be a 3rd pilot placed on an MCO if flight time is particularly long and there has been a delay at the airport causing flight deck to be on duty longer than is permissible with 2 crew ops.

The likes of SFO and LAX etc would require a 3rd pilot as standard due to the length of duty. The only other reason for a third pilot is for line checks.

Hope that clears up that little bit of confusion.

[Jack1985]

Hope that clears up that little bit of confusion.

Cheers, that video had my convinced! Thanks :)

[thats right]

ACL | Solutions (http://www.aircontractors.com/solutions/single/cabin-and-seating)

[DollarBill]

If a 5th cabin crew member will make the B757 operation uneconomical then it was pretty marginal already.
I expect that the cost of new cabin crew are sub 25K per annum. So thats 40 crew x 24K, 1 million euro......a lot of cash.
But not when you divide it by 3 B757's operating perhaps 4-5 round trips per week. Lets call it 4 per aircraft.....12x52=624 round trips.....at lets say 6 J class and 100 Y class pax (I expect EI would want a lot more than that)...... that a yearly total of 3744 J/ 62,400 Y. Purely on numbers rather than ticket fares we get approx a cost of 15 Euro per pax to have those 40 crew hired for the B757. And with a full flight the cost per pax goes down even further.


US carriers have 6 crew, Icelandair who operate shorter routes to the USA have 5 crew. Anyone know how many Thompson have on their B757? (EDIT-Thks TSR2 for the info that Thompson have 200+ pax)
EI are going to have 4....what happens when a flight deck member has to come out to the toilet? The crew member in J class will then have to go into the cockpit.....is J class unattended? What happens if a pax gets sick....does the service stop?
I can't see J class pax jumping ship from UA/DL/US to EI with a less customer focused J class service. My last time on UA it looked as if they had 2 serving J with 4 in Y. So does this mean EI will have 2 crew serving 170 in Y Class

Referring to the comment "EY standards not needed ex-SNN"....if EI upgrade their J Class service it will across the board, not just ex-DUB and not just on their A330's. While the seats may be different on the B757 they will have to offer the same actual service levels.

And I can't see the service being too short on the Eastbound night flights.....it may well take the whole journey BOS-SNN....I think I'll make sure to pack my earplugs and eyemask on those flights.....

For arguments sake I just looked at fares: 20th Jan, SNN-BOS with BOS-SNN on the 24th;590 Euros in Y, 1997 Euros in J Class.

[TSR2]

Anyone know how many Thompson have on their B757?

Don't forget that the Thomson 757's have 200+ seats and therefore require more than 4 crew by law.

[j636]

Aer Lingus expect to announce their interline partner at YYZ soon, they will be offering connections from YYZ to Vancouver, Montreal, Saint Johns, Halifax, Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa and Winnipeg. Currently some are offered via ORD with UA.

It could be Air Canada but EI entrance to YYZ-DUB could of changed things. WestJet also a possible carrier.

[j636]

Aer Lingus have said bye bye to cabin crew who were training for B757 flights.

Trainee cabin crew jettisoned in Aer Lingus dispute | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/trainee-cabin-crew-jettisoned-in-aer-lingus-dispute-245680.html#.UlUUNYsSLRI.twitter)

[racedo]

Ah don't you just love Unions looking after the welfare of people ...............course there are now 30 people who just may not feel a union is for them.

[widebody69]

If Aer Lingus wish to operate with a crew of 4 and are legally allowed to do so, what business is it of the union? That's crazy stuff altogether. They should take it up with the IAA if they have a problem.

[ayroplain]

Nothing new here. I hope that EI management will hold firm and that, once and for all, this shower of wasters will be put in their place. The bloody cheek of them! If I tried to dictate to my boss on what terms I would work I'd be thrown out the door in a flash. You can't run any business like that.

[Skipness One Echo]

The union is trying to look after their members, that's what they're there for. I'm no union loving lefty, far from it, but terms and conditions are collapsing across the industry. At some point, enough is enough. Working with substantially less manpower on each flight may be legal, but that's 20% less than the competition use so we'd be the first to whine about service levels no doubt.

I think we've cut the fat of the former nationalised company, now, as people tend to do, they're taking it too far.

[EI-BUD]

Looks like 321 on Cork Heathrow in coming week, was booking on for Oct 26th and it is 321 on all flights that day...

Seemed to be 320 on across the summer . .

[ryan2000]

It'd be on the route year round if it weren't for the logistical problems that develop when it runs late. Hard to keep LHR on schedule when there are only 320's as back up aircraft particularly when it's heavily booked.

[TSR2]

Irrespective of the unions v company debate, I cannot understand why EI are so determined to operate T/A with legal minimum crew when all other airlines with similar equipment operate presumably profitable with 5+ crew.

I appreciate certain airlines operate 189 seat aircraft with 4 crew on inter-European routes that are not far off the duration of the proposed EI flights. However, the expectations of T/A pax are totally different to even the longest inter-European flight.

[DollarBill]

I'm with TSR2 on this point......

EI are trying to ensure their are the main airline on Ireland-USA routes. How can they ensure they achieve this position if they are operating B757's with 1/3 less crew which then means a lower service level onboard. Whats the config? 12/170? I know another airline which has 189 and 4 crew......

5 crew ensure situations onboard can be handled without stopping service. (Anytime I have seen an ill pax onboard an aircraft it usually takes 2 crew to deal with the issue)

If I was a UA/DL/US passenger the offering from EI would not really interest me.

[Just a spotter]

DB

while I agree with some of your post, why would an airline ramp up CC numbers to cope with occasional events?

T/A services may very well be purchased on a different basis to European short haul, but price is still a factor for passengers as is maximising the long term profitability of the route to the airline.

I haven't flow EI T/A since 2006 (I haven't flown anyone T/A since 2006) but generally on all long haul (not just EI) I do recall noticing the amount of time CC seemed to spend not involved in any visible service related task. Outside of the tasks related to the meal and shopping services, they do appeared to sit around at the back of the cabin chatting. Now, there's nothing wrong with that and I'm not suggesting staff don't deserve a break, but on an aircraft (just like the aircraft itself), if they're not generating revenue then they're a cost (in essence, for the proportion of the flight that CC are not active then from an accounting perspective they could be viewed as Pax/weight that the airline is paying for).

I know that might sound harsh and it's not intended to, merely to point out that from a process analysis and "bean counter" perspective, that's how you'd view the crewing arrangement. For a business deciding to sell on price it's simple, reduce the cost, improve the margin and/or give yourself room to cut fares.

Management assess whether the product on offer would be improved by one additional crew member ... if so, how many more Pax will it attract and/or how much more would each Pax be prepared to pay for that marginal increase .. .and if you do it what are the cost implication? If there's no demonstrable benefit to the bottom line, then why do it?

JAS

[widebody69]

JAS has it right in my view, service level is the decision of the airline, not the cabin crew or union. Obviously 1-2 less crew members is going to affect onboard operations, so clearly EI have made a choice that that's the way they want to go. Definitely not a reason to be balloting for strike action.

[Skipness One Echo]

Ah don't you just love Unions looking after the welfare of people ...............course there are now 30 people who just may not feel a union is for them.
This is classic union busting I think. Only four cabin crew on a long haul transatlantic operation is unheard of. I suspect it's a ruse to close the Shannon base and allow ACL to crew the operation from day 1. Tart them up in a green uniform and Joe Public won't think they're not Aer Lingus. If ACL are supplying the pilots anyway, I imagine them supplying the cabin crew is a win for EI. All EI have to do is make the existing crew an offer no reasonable minded existing crew would willingly accept and they can then paint them as dinosaurs.
It's not worded as "Would you like to work long haul with the smallest compliment of B757 cabin crew on the North Atlantic?"

[thats right]

Aer lingus pilots will be operating the 757 along side ACL pilots .

[Tom the Tenor]

When I stop to think some more about it it may well suggest that EI management have been taking a calculated gamble on this one knowing for sure the existing cabin crew would not agree to the four cabin crew arrangment which in turn allows them to hand it over to the subcontractor. I feel most sorry for the young boys and girls now turned away from new jobs and whom it seems had their uniforms issued as well. Imagine how hurtful that must be to anyone but especially to the young ladies involved whom were hired for the job. You would be in despair for them.

If EI had hired crew whom were willing to give the four crew a go, well, just let them at it and see how it goes. Why do the based crew at snn have to get involved - it seems it has little to do with them. Yes, I accept all the other airlines involved crew with five or more cabin crew but if four crew is legal that on one level that should be the end of it if the new crew involved are trained and prepared to give it a go, so to speak.

Aer Lingus will know soon enough if there are problems emerging.

[Skipness One Echo]

If EI had hired crew whom were willing to give the four crew a go, well, just let them at it and see how it goes. Why do the based crew at snn have to get involved - it seems it has little to do with them.
The SNN crew would have been made to work as 4 crew on the B757 or relocate. Won't any EI pilots flying B757s be going to work for ACL?

[brian_dromey]

The plan was to have the 757 flights operated by SNN crew, including the DUB-YYZ. The A330 is 8 cabin crew - minumum crew levels for that aircraft, so Im not really sure what the argument is for 5 on the 757. Safetly has not ben mentioned, so I don't think that is the problem.
I would have thought that with 5 crew there would have been two crew looking after business, one in the galley one doing the service and helping in Y with tea and coffee and three in the main cabin. I'm not sure how the current J service could be delivered in a timely manner to even 12 seats, unless they plan on having just 2 crew look after Y?

[Jamie2k9]

8 cabin crew on the A330-300 deal with average of 40 passengers.
4 cabin crew on the B757-200 deal with average of 43 passengers.

Flights won't have 100% LF all the time. All EI flights have min crew on aircraft and service levels don't suffer. This is a non issue and as usual unions don't want staff to actually do a decent days work.

It will only be a matter of time before US carriers are forced to cut costs and become more efficient if they want to remain viable between US and Europe. Fuel, airport charges and Government taxes are only going one way and passenger income is in most cases going the other and the gap will have to be reduced at some point.

For all the extra CC on some US carriers, service levels leave a lot to be desired.

[EI320]

There are a whole range of issues at play in the wider EI IR environment at the moment and the decision by CC to ballot for industrial action should be viewed in this context. Whilst I don't share the CC's grievances over the proposed crewing level, it should be noted that this comes at a time when a myriad of other outstanding issues are set to come to a head.

I suspect the ballot results will strongly reflect the discontent that has been steadily growing in the section over the past number of months.

On a side note - a poster above referred to crew as a "shower of wasters". I fail to see how such remarks add value to the debate.

[EI-A330-300]

EI320

Look at it this way if unions are not prepared to adapt to change then there will be no work for then as routes will close and aircraft sold on as losses will mount. EI crew are in a very good place compared to other national flag carriers.

[EI320]

I'm taking an objective view, EI-A330-300.

EI CC have shown their willingness to adapt time and time again. They continue to adapt, as all staff must.

I repeat: I do not share the CC's grievance over the crewing levels. However, I believe there are other elements of the 757 proposal that, if true, CC would be understandably concerned about. Do these issues warrant industrial action? That would be a matter of opinion.

IR disputes are rarely black and white and this is certainly no exception. Both sides must shoulder some of the blame for allowing the situation to reach this point.

[ayroplain]

On a side note - a poster above referred to crew as a "shower of wasters". I fail to see how such remarks add value to the debate.
I was talking about the unions in EI because that's what they are, wasters. Wasting time and money - Aer Lingus' time and money. Every step of the way to reform seems to be resisted line by line which must have cost the airline millions in lost revenue, hire-ins (FR and Monarch, etc) and progress time while the opposition moves on. On a regular basis I'm sick of hearing reports that XXXX union in EI are "balloting their members for industrial action". It's like a sword through booked passenger's hearts.

In this case EI management appears to have decided from a cost-effective viewpoint to use 757's with a specified number of crew. End of story. It's none of the union's business but they're still living in the past and think they have a stranglehold on everything that moves. That's why it is essential that the management holds firm and shows them that they haven't. I feel very sorry for the abandoned trainees and the impact this will have on existing staff. Bright futures all ruined by, yes, wasters.

[Skipness One Echo]

In this case EI management appears to have decided from a cost-effective viewpoint to use 757's with a specified number of crew. End of story. It's none of the union's business
I'm sorry but you seem to be misunderstanding the point of a union. What's the point of a union if it allows management to decide unilaterally that five people should do the work of four? Or pilots in Belfast are worth less than pilots in Dublin? A "cost-effective point of view" just means paying your staff less and less and less. In this case, I would suggest they can just paint someone elses aircraft green and crew it with contract cheaper crew. I would suggest this was Plan A and Plan B. The customer gets a more "cost effective" service, Aer Lingus takes out an in house staff cost, classic MBA approach. Terms and conditions of people working in the industry tumble further. I mean I am a bit of an old capitalist but the thought that a union should just sit back allow management to cut willy nilly makes me shudder. Four crew on a transatlantic B757 is back to basics cheap and cheerful.

Worth googling BA and AML (Asset Management Limited) if you want to know what happens next. I mean it's hardly the NUM is it?
I feel very sorry for the abandoned trainees and the impact this will have on existing staff. Bright futures all ruined by, yes, wasters.
Whose future earnings are a fraction of what they were due to massive pressure to reduce costs to maintain an unstable business model. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. I am old enough to remember when airlines had their wn ground handling staff who were empowered to do things to help you. Now we get a shrug from a young person on minimum wage employed by Menzies or Servisair for a few years until they tire of being screamed at by hacked off punters. Cost effective? Yup.

[ayroplain]

I'm sorry but you seem to be misunderstanding the point of a union.
I know a lot more about unions, proper unions, than you give me credit for. The EI unions still live in the past. Everyone else has moved on. (well, excluding French and Spanish ATC)

Pay peanuts, get monkeys
Just another over quoted cliche used to ridicule any attempt at reform and disrespectful to thousands of hard-working employees.

I am old enough to remember when airlines had their own ground handling staff who were empowered to do things to help you
......and empowered themselves to walk off the job leaving thousands of EI passengers (and passengers of other airlines they handled at the time) stranded for hours at check-in desks, gates and even on aircraft closed up and ready to go. I suppose you don't remember that!

The current EI management is the best they've ever had and if EI is to continue to move forward this union problem has to be solved once and for all. 30 new trainees were delighted to be getting a job with EI and I'm quite sure were quite prepared to work hard at 4 per flight. Their minds will not have been poisoned by old-fashioned and outdated unionised thinking.

[Skipness One Echo]

EI is to continue to move forward this union problem has to be solved once and for all.
You mean "broken" don't you. The key is to realise when you've gone too far, this is union busting. btw "moving forward" is just a meaningless platitude. I don't see anything to cheer about in staff being paid less or made to work to levels no other operator has attempted.
30 new trainees were delighted to be getting a job with EI and I'm quite sure were quite prepared to work hard at 4 per flight.
Yes indeed, for a few years until they burn out and leave so they can be replaced by younger and fresher meat. I know how it works thanks, I'm just sick to the back teeth of seeing it as the medium term result once the bonuses have been paid and management has moved on is a staff merry go round on ever lower terms and conditions. Which is why, unless you're a white collar professional, you need a union.
Look at Ryanair. That's what happens when you have *no* union, that's where Aer Lingus are trying to go with this. If they can remove unionised staff from long haul on the B757, the next step, and one I would fully support were I managing this, would be to break them off the A330 somehow. Three cheers for paying your enthusiastic trainees less with no pension btw :) The only generation to be poorer than their parents in living memory, because we as a market have really dumb and misplaced expectations of delivery versus cost base.

[TSR2]

The current EI management is the best they've ever had

But solving industrial relations problems does not seem one of their strong points.

[ayroplain]

Look at Ryanair. That's what happens when you have *no* union,
Good for them and, as a result, they have 81 million pax and growing plus another 175 aircraft on order and a great punctuality record to add to great fares. Aer Lingus had an almost 50 year start on them but were going nowhere until comparatively recently.

To me the only downside of FR is the website which, thankfully, is going to be revamped. I have never personally experienced or seen anything other than friendliness and courtesy from Ryanair staff. They are not the uncaring, rude people that a few with other agendas love to go on about. It's a joy to travel with them, worry-free before, during and after the flight.

I can fully understand how people brought up in the tradition of "old" Aer Lingus regret the passing of those good ol' cushy days but now they're gone, they're definitely gone.

[MCDU2]

Why don't you stop posting on the AL thread then since all you want to talk about is your love affair with FR?

[ayroplain]

Why don't you stop posting on the AL thread then since all you want to talk about is your love affair with FR?
You should read the full version rather than comment on one post. If you had, you'd see that it was another poster who brought Ryanair into it to which I merely replied. Do you normally start reading a book at Chapter 5?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Last Thursday, Aer Lingus was informed by Impact that they will not agree to crewing the Boeing 757 operations,” an airline spokesman said. “We were obliged to instruct ACL that they should start recruiting to crew the aircraft. As a direct result, Aer Lingus, rather than growing its cabin crew employee numbers, will now have a surplus of cabin crew. We have therefore had to notify a group of 30 recently hired cabin crew trainees that their training has been cancelled with immediate effect, as the roles for which they were training will no longer exist in Aer Lingus.

Surely these Cabin Crew would then just run across the road to ACL for a job!

[aer lingus]

Would ACL employ them, doubt it.:=

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Would ACL employ them, doubt it

Why not, not their fault (ACL or the new crew)

:\

[dublinaviator]

Exactly, there's no reason why ACL wouldn't take them. If anything, Aer Lingus have done all the hard work in terms of selection, ACL just have to set down terms of employment.

[EI-A330-300]

Aer Lingus sues the state for 61 million over the illegal period of the tax before the flat rate of €3 was introduced in March 2011. They failed to have it fast tracked but the case will proceed as normal in the courts.

[larry the man]

Classic!

Aer Lingus have a big hole in their pension fund which they don't want to pour more money into, so they target their central shareholder to offset the problem for a load of millions by repaying money directly to EI which passengers paid out in the first instance.

One would think the answer from Mr Central Govt would be - that's all great, give us all of the names and addresses of the passengers who were over-charged and we'll rebate them all directly by means of Tax rebate.....

Honestly - the combined brainpower of Beckett, Joyce, Swift and o'Casey couldnt dream it up.

[Hangar6]

First one now in SNN EI-LBR B757 - 200 , ex Finnair OH-LBR ,
To be leased to EI by AIr Contractors for SNn and Dublin secondary t/ATL services Q1 2013.
Wish all well on the venture

[EI-A330-300]

Well the refusal of crew in SNN to operate has resulted in 87 CC being given the chop but can apply to Air Contractors to operate out of SNN or relocate to DUB?ORK if available.

Aer Lingus cutting 87 cabin crew jobs at Shannon - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1024/482458-aer-lingus-shannon/)

[vkid]

big two fingers to the unions...

[Jamie2k9]

A330-200 being scheduled on some DUB-FAO flights next summer, to free up SH capacity

[EISNN]

Surprised it hasn't happened sooner and that they aren't using the 330-300 - They'd certainly fill it I would have thought. 330 is used daily on morning AGP flights during the summer schedule too isn't it?

[irish lad]

EI cabin crew vote in favor of going on strike... Again! This time over the closure of the Shannon crew base, where they're refusing to fly the transatlantic planes next year.

[sprite1]

@ Larry the man:

Aer Lingus paid the departure tax for those passengers. The rebate EI are seeking is their money. Not the passengers who flew with them over the years.

Makes you wonder what else is incorrect on this thread.....

[larry the man]

Right sprite1 - did they ...... Aye!

Well, they'll be the 1st airline who didn't pass a govt tax thru to the punter by admin fee, fuel charge or some other spuriously masked extra.

But maybe they do things different in EI ;)

[racedo]

Right sprite1 - did they ...... Aye!

Well, they'll be the 1st airline who didn't pass a govt tax thru to the punter by admin fee, fuel charge or some other spuriously masked extra.

But maybe they do things different in EI

Maybe someone is confusing EI paying passengers tax with the Tax that EI paid to Irish Revenue because they sacked and rehired people and it wasn't proper redundancy.

[Jack1985]

Congratulations to management with these results, particularly following the expected poor performance in short-haul, priorities need to be tight the next few months, would expect the cabin crew issues at Shannon will be sorted fairly shortly considering were now 3 months away from launch and tickets are still being sold, the IASS pension issue needs to be dealt with pronto with all sides contributing. Good to see that Long-Haul absorbed the additional A330 this summer with even higher load factors than ever.

Q3 2013 Interim Management Statement - London Stock Exchange (http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11763554)

[sprite1]

Jays, Larry. I don't care how they phrased it.

You said they're not going to find out where all these pax live, etc etc. They don't need to. If they added €3 on to the fare and the pax paid it, it's Lingus'. The pax agreed to pay it.

If they get the rebate, it's Aer Lingus' money. The pax never paid a departure tax.

As for the fire, rehire, that's another issue.

[EI-A330-300]

Looks like SNN crew base could be saved, new T/A flights will operate with 5 crew between Jan and March where possible. Then 4 crew will begin full operation and it will be reviewed in July. Staff to get extra pay to.

All cabin crew will receive eight additional "credits" worth a total of €36 per trip. In addition, senior cabin crew will receive an extra 12 credits per return trip worth €54.

We shall see if money talks soon....
Closure of Aer Lingus Shannon base may be averted - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1115/486795-aer-lingus/)

[DollarBill]

Its not the money talking its the LRC deciding that this system is a compromise from both positions. I wonder will EI ever carry out the "review of staffing levels" recommended by this LRC decision. I doubt it.

EI can ignore the LRC if they want, and have been doing so over the last 2 years. Hence why EI refuse pointblank to go to the Labour Court, as its directives are actually binding on both parties in a dispute.

[Una Due Tfc]

Only 4 330's on the Atlantic lastnight (2 JFK-DUB, 1 BOS-DUB, 1 ORD-DUB), normal winter schedule?

[Jack1985]

Slight reduction in November, for example on Wednesday there will be 6 (2 DUB-JFK-DUB, 2 DUB-BOS-DUB, 1 DUB-ORD-DUB, 1 SNN-BOS-SNN). EI-LAX is in Bordeaux undergoing maintenance. from the middle of January to early March the schedule will see 5 aircraft across the atlantic on a daily basis one of which is a 757.

[Una Due Tfc]

Yeah I noticed EI-LAX was non etops last week

[Jack1985]

Yeah I noticed EI-LAX was non etops last week

May I ask what this usually means? I'm assuming something has been degraded leading to etops standard being lost?

[Aerlingus231]

Probably just the number of cycles/hours between maintainence required for ETOPS approval. Bordeaux does the scheduled maintainence, so EI probably either kept it on the Atlantic for a week non ETOPs as prior planned, or perhaps the number of diversions/returns to base/hours clocked up exceeded what they'd planned for before the next maintencence was scheduled and had to operate it non-etops.

In other news: Large numbers or new routes and increased frequencies next Summer from EI.
Aer Lingus announces new routes at Dublin and Shannon | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/aer-lingus-announces-new-routes-at-dublin-and-shannon-614591.html)

[Una Due Tfc]

The other 6 A330s were coming in off the Nat Tracks, EI-LAX was coming in from way north around PIKIL/SUNOT/AGORI area from Iceland. A320 and 737 delivery flights have to use similar routes. It was also in the remarks section of the flight plan that it was non-etops

[EI-A330-300]

Slight reduction in November, for example on Wednesday there will be 6 (2 DUB-JFK-DUB, 2 DUB-BOS-DUB, 1 DUB-ORD-DUB, 1 SNN-BOS-SNN).

This November v Last November is somewhat changed. It was mainly 5 daily max last winter to the US but this year its 5 or 6 daily. They increased DUB-BOS capacity this winter to bring the number up to 6 flights some days. They removed the odd SNN-BOS which explains the reduction from 5 to 4 last night, reason being that T/A numbers this month are weaker that expected but back to normal for rest of the winter.

[SecondDog]

Just wondering if some of you insiders think there is any chance EI could pull the plug on BHD to revert to BFS, or pull the plug on NI altogether?

Seems they are not trying very hard in the Harbour

[Una Due Tfc]

Very hard to make money on that BHD runway with a jet, especially on a wet day. Thats why FR left

[True Blue]

But did they not know that before moving from Bfs to Bhd? Or is this another example of bad decision making? A move for the wrong reasons - again!

Tb

[BFS BHD]

Did BHD not offer EIN free slots or something to replace BMI Baby and BMI

[Jamie2k9]

Just wondering if some of you insiders think there is any chance EI could pull the plug on BHD to revert to BFS, or pull the plug on NI altogether?

Seems they are not trying very hard in the Harbour


Not at all, they had a good summer at BHD and once BE drop LGW it will improve.

[EI-BUD]

Una Due Tfc
Very hard to make money on that BHD runway with a jet, especially on a wet day. Thats why FR left


If EI like FR had a restriction as to how many seats they could sell per flight, this might be true. But not the case.

EI had great summer especially on sun routes, LHR doing well . LGW will be ok provided EZY don't step in next year and I wouldn't rule that out. At this stage some of the slots from BE have not been allocated to particular routes . If this would happen EI would simply move capacity to previous successful routes like BCN and ALC.

I can't see EI giving up on Belfast they have invested too much and to be fair to them have tried many routes albeit I think the timing of these was bad, I.e, a very difficult year they entered the market.

[GAZMO]

I cannot see EI entering BHD to BCN. Just look at the caa stats for BFS to BCN. ALC might provide better yields but EZY and LS provide all year round service to ALC and I believe 12/13 flights pw in the summer

[840]

Do EI have the aircraft capacity to significantly expand at the moment anyway?

The reduction in passenger tax in the South hasn't exactly prompted a response from them.

[MCDU2]

Aircraft are not the issue, they can lease more should they wish to. Don't make the mistake of comparing the FR model of flooding cheap seats on new routes with AL. AL is a mature business with a different business model to FR. AL crunches the numbers and if they cant project a profit from the get go then they wont operate a new route. The current business model is all about yield management, ancilliary revenue and increasing aircraft utilisation during the winter months to smooth out the work. Hence the Novair contract. The recent announcment of new routes for summer 2014 and increases on existing routes will have both fleets working hard. Also there are lots of opportunities to be reviewed for both the 320 and 330 fleets during winter. The Little Red contract could lead to additional work from other airlines/operators.

[David Sharpe]

I have had a recent visit to Lanzarote, and noted both on my arrival day (Sunday 20th October) and departure day (Sunday 3rd November) that there was an EI 7778 / 7779 flight operating.

This flight did not appear on the website to book, a scheduled Sunday arrival commenced on 27th October for the Winter timetable, meaning that there were 2 departures on both 27th October and 3rd November.

Was this additional service a Charter flight, did it operate for the whole of Summer 2013 or just from late September / early October when demand for holidays in the Canaries increases ?

[Hangar6]

See thelingussource.com

Always a few charters extra etc

[EI-A330-300]

EI7778/7779 was a charter between 6 October-3 November for Thomas Cook taking over from Avion Express who's seasonal base finished at end of September.

[David Sharpe]

Hangar 6, many thanks for the reply, I have just had a quick look and it appears that this flight operated between 06OCT and 03NOV inclusive.

[David Sharpe]

Also many thanks EI-A330-300, you must have just been typing as I was penning my last response.

[insuindi]

Glad to see EI finally giving DUB-HAJ a try, at 4/7 this could work (no doubt inspired by the crazy growth BA has seen on its LHR-HAJ link).

[boyzinblue]

I think it is great that EI have announced Hannover-Dublin. Who knows, they may extend it for the winter (even 2/7) if it works for them. I think it is a brave move considering Hamburg is 1 1/2 hours up the road and Ryanair flying to Bremen which is an hour away.

[EI-A330-300]

The IT reports that almost 83% of crew in SNN have accepted the proposals for SNN T/A services.

Hanover, since when have EI cared about FR flying near by.

[insuindi]

FR possibly discontinues BRE-DUB, as no flights yet bookable April 2014 forward (most other BRE routes are loaded for then).

HAM flight is daily and has an earlier timing, which allows some US connectivity. The HAJ flight is timed more attractively for point-to-point traffic, particular on Sundays, but if I'm right with no long-haul connections?!

[Jack1985]

but if I'm right with no long-haul connections?!

Unfortunately not without a night-stay from HAJ-DUB, would think the route will be successful, hoping it will be year-round!

[Just a spotter]

Reported in The Irish Independent, 21st Nov 2013, EI teaming up with GOAL to send 40 tonnes of aid to the Philippines. Cargo flight will go from Dublin to Dubai and then onward.

Being reported elsewhere that crew and ops are giving their time free of charge.

Aer Lingus and GOAL send aid to Philippines - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/aer-lingus-and-goal-send-aid-to-philippines-29772592.html)

JAS

[EI-A330-300]

Being reported elsewhere that crew and ops are giving their time free of charge.

Think everything is free. They tweeted earlier:

Thanks for contributing to @GOALIreland (https://twitter.com/GOALIreland) flight: @eurocontrol (https://twitter.com/eurocontrol), @NATSPressOffice (https://twitter.com/NATSPressOffice), @AirPartner (https://twitter.com/AirPartner), IAA, Shell and Topaz Aviation, Valero Energy

[Epsomdog]

Rumour is EI will not be operating these from next summer. Any idea who will?

[EI-A330-300]

Not a rumour they have swapped them for another pair. Planned with over a year. Thinks its BA who they have them now.

Old Slot
LHR-DUB 06.40-08.00
DUB-LHR 21.10-22.25

New Slot
LHR-DUB 13.25-14.45
DUB-LHR 11.15-12.35

Old Slot was to costly and demand wasn't there for the 06.40 most used the 07.40 service while the new slot reduces the gap in the schedule that would of being left with the extra LHR-ORK flight.

[ATCO97]

Hey there, those in the know have any idea when the first B757 will de delivered? Is the refit going to be done in DUB or SNN?

[fivejuliet]

OH-LBR (to be EI-LBR) with SNN Aerospace for the last month or so. AFAIK it's all being done there

[Una Due Tfc]

Didn't know they could fit 757 in their hangar

[EISNN]

Yup they can. It's quite a large hangar.

Shannon Aerospace | Reliable Aircraft Maintenance (http://www.shannonaerospace.com)

[EISNN]

I'm hearing a rumour of a DUB-YHZ (Halifax Stanfield Intl) on an A321/A320 in response to the new WestJet service from St. John's. Is this true? Has anyone else heard anything?

[larry the man]

Interesting EISNN - and the airline to DUb from YHZ? Air Canada? Porter?! Westjet??!! Could be wizz! :ok:

[CabinCrewe]

A full and low cost A320 would struggle a bit to YYZ I would have thought. WOW via KEF ?

[Jamie2k9]

I'm hearing a rumour of a DUB-YHZ (Halifax Stanfield Intl) on an A321/A320 in response to the new WestJet service from St. John's. Is this true? Has anyone else heard anything?


Can't see it myself, EI will have enough on there plate to make YYZ preform with all the capacity to Canada in 2014, adding more wouldn't benefit them or other carriers.

[ATCO97]

Thanks fivejuilet I'm looking forward to seeing her role out in new
EI colours! Any early pics be great.

[Cian]

I'm hearing a rumour of a DUB-YHZ (Halifax Stanfield Intl) on an A321/A320 in response to the new WestJet service from St. John's. Is this true? Has anyone else heard anything?


I'd be pretty confident the 321s wouldn't make it - they are very old by EI standards and the 321 range has improved hugely since '98/'99. Would have to be a 320 or 319 and I suspect there would be murderous rage in the cabin if someone had to sit on one on -EPT/-EPU for 4 hours unless they've fixed the seating layout yet!

[Hangar6]

Well after a problematic S13 EI have the crew , cockpit and cc so now they need the aircraft for the peak,
Lots effort on going seeking aircraft, exhausting effort for sure but watch this space ,

[j636]

Maybe Titan is the way to go again but on a better schedule etc. Note from there Q3 results capacity was up 2.9% but costs only 0.4%.

Would it of being different if they had all crew available on there own aircraft and Titan didn't come in?

[Hangar6]

EI subbing in didn't always loose money and subbing on a planned rather than recovery basis can be one solution certainly for July August .

[Jack1985]

Hi everyone, I understand EI-LAX has now left on its Novair lease, I'm wondering what routes she will be operating and will she still be operating under the Aer Lingus AOC?

Regards,
Jack

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, Jack, we will hardly be seeing her in Cork, anyway! We cannot even hang on to an A321 for very long either! An A321 sitting on it's backside for hours and days on end at Cork over the last seven or eight weeks when it could have been doing far more flying - trying out some new routes on Fridays and Sundays on weekend break type destinations.

Nah, that would be too hard for the crowd in Aer Lingus. Cork? Cork, where the heck is that? Not to mention it being too hard for the brains in the CAA!

Far better for potential Cork Airport pax to take the midnight busses to Dublin HQ - easier to run Cork into the ground that way!

[Jack1985]

Well, Jack, we will hardly be seeing her in Cork, anyway! We cannot even hang on to an A321 for very long either! An A321 sitting on it's backside for hours and days on end at Cork over the last seven or eight weeks when it could have been doing far more flying - trying out some new routes on Fridays and Sundays on weekend break type destinations.

Nah, that would be too hard for the crowd in Aer Lingus. Cork? Cork, where the heck is that? Not to mention it being too hard for the brains in the CAA!

Far better for potential Cork Airport pax to take the midnight busses to Dublin HQ - easier to run Cork into the ground that way!

An Aer Lingus A330 in Cork! In both our life times, nope :p. Yeah was pretty desperate seeing that the A321 was scheduled to fly every day bar Saturdays and was flown basically weekly there for a while and sat on stand 20 the most of the time, Aer Lingus ops (unsurprisingly!) and rightly so decided where pax amount to less than 174 on flights an A320 would be used. Erin lies the problem, there ain't no demand for a 200+ aircraft on Cork-London/Heathrow in the Winter bar from the 19 Dec to the 06 Jan when it is most definitely needed and has also been scheduled to return to Cork. It was most definitely needed last Summer, however sending it on high demand Dublin routes is the logical choice, and by adding the 5th daily ORK-LHR rotation they have sorted that capacity shortfall for S14. I'd prefer to see them stabilize their portfolio of routes at Cork, only then will management at Aer Lingus consider growth and lets be frank the CAA have no balls to try budge that, would love to know what there 9 to 5 is like. :ugh:

[EI-A330-300]

Would say its under Irish one, only thing that's not Aer Lingus is the cabin crew. Could be wrong though.

[Locker10a]

Aww dont tease us Hanger !!:{
Are EI sourcing more Iberia birds or something more interesting?? :eek::eek:

[MCDU2]

It's plain and simple. The people of Cork have voted with their feet ever since adam was a babe. They would rather fly into LHR to go just about anywhere than flying with the local carriers. Unfortunately you get what you sow. To expect AL to wear a loss and build up routes whilst the locals fly with everyone else ain't a runner.

Sometimes people can't see the wood from the trees. Rather than realising that competition was good for average fares you deserted Wizz in favour of FR. Then they pulled off not surprisingly when loads/yield softened and they realised they could make more money elsewhere on the network outside of Cork. Same happened with Aer Arran. Now you all give out about how you can't connect in off regional to Dublin to get to the US but have to drive to Dublin or more bizarrely fly east to LHR.

All routes have to be profitable from day 1 - that has been the management edict for the past 5 years. AL ain't a charity.

[Angry Rebel]

@MCDU2 How's Belfast working out?! :rolleyes:

[True Blue]

Was BHD - Lgw profitable from day 1?


TB

[840]

To be honest, there are some things that I don't understand in relation to EI's Winter program in Cork. In particular, there are whole blocks of time over Winter where there seems to be aircraft sitting on the ground doing nothing on some evenings. Given loads and yields on existing to Paris, and the fact that it shouldn't be too hard to get a slot there in the evening, it surprises me that they haven't tried it out; it would seem quite low risk.

[Locker10a]

There could be a number of reasons they are not doing that! As stated EI are not a charity they have to operate a profitable business and im sure shareholders dont view taking risks and just trying things on a whim very highly! There may be other reasons too such as crew shortage or due maintenance or maybe EI need that a/c as a back up cancellations in the network maybe they anticipated a bad winter :ooh:

[j636]

According to the Air Transport World EI will be taken the A350-900 Regional. They will take all 9 and there whole long haul fleet will be A350. If the regional wasn't offered they wouldn't of taken 9 of the regular 900. Main differance is they are lighter weight and better suited to short-medium range routes.

Aer Lingus to take nine A350-900 regionals | Airframes content from ATWOnline (http://m.atwonline.com/airframes/aer-lingus-take-nine-a350-900-regionals)