Aer Lingus - 6

[EI-A330-300]

IAG offer rejected by the Government.....

5 year LHR seems to be a major issue!

Will IAG be back!

[ayroplain]

The Government wants an airline group to guarantee a route/routes for >5 years. How many then? 10, 20, 30? That's tantamount to stating they'll never agree to a sell. Good news really for the punter. No possibility of a return to the old cartel days LHR-DUB.

[Noxegon]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not have a simple arrangement where the government owns the slots and leases them back to Aer Lingus for a token amount...?

[PC767]

As a 25% shareholder the government cannot guarantee slots to LHR for 5 years, so why should any one else. I believe this is more political than economics. An election next year.

If the Irish government were so concerned about Aer Lingus and LHR connectivity; then why did they privatise the company and maintain only a minority stake.

[owenc]

The Republic of Ireland government should not have any sort of stake at all.

[ia350]

Whether they should or shouldn't , these slots are huge for the country not just Aer lingus , and it's the Irish government not southern Ireland.

[racedo]

As a 25% shareholder the government cannot guarantee slots to LHR for 5 years, so why should any one else. I believe this is more political than economics. An election next year.

If the Irish government were so concerned about Aer Lingus and LHR connectivity; then why did they privatise the company and maintain only a minority stake.


They don't need the Govt's shareholding to control the company.
Time to buy it as once you past 50% you are in control.

Having 25% or more gives you no control in an Airline.

[Hangar6]

Given there is not an actual 3rd bid as yet, I wonder how the EI board feel now
That their advice has been ignored even rebuffed? I think a lot of them would wonder what's the point of representing their shareholders,
Odd one, suspect a lot of mileage in this one yet !

[PC767]

Perhaps IAG will go for a hostile take over now. Ryanair have to sell shares and €2.55 each is a better deal than they will potentially get on the open market now the deal is off (presuming it was ever on).

[Cyrano]

now the deal is off

Things are not remotely as done-and-dusted as you imply! (As observers of the Irish political scene may recognise:hmm: )

[racedo]

Perhaps IAG will go for a hostile take over now. Ryanair have to sell shares and €2.55 each is a better deal than they will potentially get on the open market now the deal is off (presuming it was ever on).

Ryanair have to do nothing.

Already proven that UK Competition Commission statements were a load of :mad: as they haven't prevented anybody else making a bid.

That case is going to EU courts and with right lawyers will still be there in 3-4 yrs time.

[racedo]

Things are not remotely as done-and-dusted as you imply!

I agree as if IAG buy 50% then its control and Irish Govt would sell.
Its the making of a decision that is the problem, when decision made then its easy.

[Cian]

That case is going to EU courts and with right lawyers will still be there in 3-4 yrs time.


I think even Ducksy will get bored of wasting his shareholders money by then.

[Hangar6]

Spot on if there was ever a man who can spend shareholders money on defending the indefensible its Ducksie, that Clongowes year are so well fed,,,,,

[racedo]

Spot on if there was ever a man who can spend shareholders money on defending the indefensible its Ducksie, that Clongowes year are so well fed,,,,,


Depends on whether you believe that a UK court should decide on what 2 Irish companies do, especially when basis of its decision has proven to be false.

Would UK Govt remain quiet if Irish Competition authorities tried to tell 2 UK companies what they could do ?

UK Competition Commission never Investigated BAA until it was taken over by Foreigners when all of a sudden it was anti Competitive.

[Epsomdog]

what two Irish companies do

Those two Irish companies both trade and employ people in the UK. They're also both listed on the LSE. For that reason both companies fall under UK court juristriction.

As for the grounds for the original complaint, that you allude to... The IAG bid certainly hasn't blown the case out of the water!

Any company, including Ryanair would not be happy with their principle competitor being a major shareholder and able to disrupt the business.

[Epsomdog]

Politicians and unions need to wake up to the fact that the IAG bid for Aer Lingus is probably the best thing for the aviation industry in Ireland!

Only then can the country have two strong airlines competing for market share!

Not long ago they were worrying about EI being swallowed up by Ryanair! Where would the LHR slots and Union members jobs be now I wonder?

Have no fear, EI/IAG will continue with the LHR slots as long as there's money to be made. They will be the USP in their competition with Ryanair.

As for job losses! I suspect they will be an awful lot less than if MOL has his way!
IAG can offer real protection from that scenario.

Of course EI could go it alone and continue to be a small airline on the fringe of Europe..... Until the next financial collapse! MOL will probably get them on the cheap then!

[EI-A330-300]

IAG have come back and are meeting with various parties in the next few weeks including unions.

[Andy_S]

As for job losses! I suspect they will be an awful lot less than if MOL has his way! IAG can offer real protection from that scenario.

Interestingly, the Aer Lingus unions recently reversed their position on IAG's proposed takeover; having initially opposed it, they now support it.

[Epsomdog]

Interestingly, the Aer Lingus unions recently reversed their position on IAG's proposed takeover; having initially opposed it, they now support it.

I think you'll find that's not the case.

One of the CRC members was interviewed and his personal view was then quoted as the Union position! The unions have subsequently distanced themselves from that view!

[Cyrano]

I think you'll find that's not the case.

One of the CRC members was interviewed and his personal view was then quoted as the Union position! The unions have subsequently distanced themselves from that view!

In fairness, this wasn't some sort of man-in-the-street vox pop on what random people think of the IAG bid; he was interviewed about the bid on a radio current affairs capacity in his professional capacity as Aer Lingus CRC secretary. He is senior enough to have been one of the 3 or 4 union people (and the only one employed by Aer Lingus) to appear before the Transport Committee a couple of weeks ago. This wasn't some naive newbie talking out of turn. I think there is some inter-union politicking going on.

[racedo]

Any company, including Ryanair would not be happy with their principle competitor being a major shareholder and able to disrupt the business.

Any Examples of where they have used their shareholding to disrupt Aer Lingus business ?

[racedo]

Those two Irish companies both trade and employ people in the UK. They're also both listed on the LSE. For that reason both companies fall under UK court juristriction.

Only in relation to UK operation, nothing else.

Ryanair can delist from LSE and nothing UK can do about it.

Issue will be decided in EU courts rather than London which is as it should be.

[Epsomdog]

Ryanair can delist from the LSE

I agree but until such time as they do so, they will have to abide by the rules!

[racedo]

I agree but until such time as they do so, they will have to abide by the rules!

Listing on LSE has nothing to do with Competition Commission.

In this case UK Civil Servants are attempting to interfere in something covered within EU law, EU Law which didn't seem to have a problem with this.

The claim that because companies trade in UK is a basis of Govt interference means that French Govt can interfere in IAG / EI because both EI and IAG trade in France. Once you allow interference it means you allow everybody to do it and make whatever reasons they wish.

Likewise this will set a precedence that any EU country can get involved in any takeover because one or both companys involved trade in that country.

The whole basis of the claim that Ryanair holding a minority shareholding would block any other airline considering a bid has been proven to be false, yet UK Govt will still push that because bureaucrats the world over cannot admit they are wrong.

[pwalhx]

In much the same way as some contributors seem to think Ryanair can do no wrong

[Una Due Tfc]

EI and IAG don't compete on routes out of France though Racedo, whereas EI and FR compete on a number of routes between the U.K. and Knock, Dublin, Cork and Shannon. On many of these routes they are the only 2 airlines serving them.

MO'L said a few years ago that he would happily sell the shares to another interested airline, but none were interested. Are you saying now IAG have called his bluff he is going to seek a court ruling to prevent him having to do exactly that?

[Faire d'income]

Racedo's post regarding EI & FR is disingenuous as usual.

FR & EI are both listed on the London Stock Exchange. He is well aware that this is the authority on which the UK can investigate. Thus his France argument is nonsense.

Also his pedalling of the mantra regarding the prevention of a takeover renders the finding invalid, is also misleading. The primary basis of the finding was 'that Ryanair's shareholding could "substantially lessen" competition on routes between the UK and Ireland.'

Finally, even regarding the takeover, IAG bidding for EI doesn't 'prove' that FR is not blocking others from taking it over, that won't happen unless IAG succeeds.

It is difficult to see the point of his bizarre argument because anyone fooled by it cannot be remotely familiar with the facts and thus he is preaching to the irrelevant.

[racedo]

Racedo's post regarding EI & FR is disingenuous as usual.

FR & EI are both listed on the London Stock Exchange. He is well aware that this is the authority on which the UK can investigate. Thus his France argument is nonsense.

Completely false.

Please show where LSE listing rules provide UK competition commission authority to get involved with any company.



Also his pedalling of the mantra regarding the prevention of a takeover renders the finding invalid, is also misleading. The primary basis of the finding was 'that Ryanair's shareholding could "substantially lessen" competition on routes between the UK and Ireland.'


"The CC found that the two companies had ceased to be distinct enterprises for the purposes of the Act as a result of Ryanair’s ability to exercise material influence over the policy of Aer Lingus and that this therefore amounted to a relevant merger situation. Ryanair with a holding of 29.82% could block special resolutions at general meetings of Aer Lingus and could prevent Aer Lingus from merging with another airline either within a scheme of arrangement or under Directive 2005/56/EC on cross-border mergers."

The divestment was based on claiming that a merger situation existed where "2 separate entities had ceased to be distinct".

A clear false position because Ryanairs holding has not stopped Aer Lingus competing


Finally, even regarding the takeover, IAG bidding for EI doesn't 'prove' that FR is not blocking others from taking it over, that won't happen unless IAG succeeds.

It is difficult to see the point of his bizarre argument because anyone fooled by it cannot be remotely familiar with the facts and thus he is preaching to the irrelevant.

"“7.30 Third parties told us that any acquirer of Aer Lingus would be likely to be concerned by Ryanair’s minority shareholding. IAG told us that it would not usually contemplate buying a controlling interest in an airline with a significant ongoing minority shareholder. Air France said that Ryanair’s presence as an existing shareholder in Aer Lingus was not considered a deterrent to another airline acquiring an interest in the airline. However, there would be concerns over the illiquid share block between the shares held by the Irish Government, Ryanair and employees. Overall, Air France said that it would be difficult, but not impossible, for another airline to take a stake in Aer Lingus given its current share register. Lufthansa said that having a competitor like Ryanair as a shareholder made Aer Lingus’s shareholder structure rather challenging and made the airline rather less attractive. Aer Arann told us that a potential suitor would have concerns about acquiring an airline in which the largest shareholder was also a competitor."

All in "" is direct from the Judgement.

[racedo]

MO'L said a few years ago that he would happily sell the shares to another interested airline, but none were interested. Are you saying now IAG have called his bluff he is going to seek a court ruling to prevent him having to do exactly that?

IAG have made no formal bid to shareholders.

Therefore how can IAG have called anybodys bluff when no formal offer has been received by shareholders.

What is noted in previous post is that IAG have stated via their Lawyers that

" IAG told us that it would not usually contemplate buying a controlling interest in an airline with a significant ongoing minority shareholder."

They have had no discussions with Ryanair as was publicly stated by the company at the last results publication. So Ryanair board cannot make a judgement on something that hasn't been put to them.

It does however suggest that if Irish Govt refuses to sell its shares then Takeover is off before any other Shareholders are spoken with.

[cuallnow]

That's it, the final straw. He'd argue night is day. There is no reasoning with him, no cogent argument permeates the mantra. He's blocked and i shall enjoy the reasoned postings from both sides without feature length diatribes and consistently inaccurate predictions.

[owenc]

How good is the wifi on this airline over the ocean? Thinking of flying with them so that I can get the day flight back.

[Una Due Tfc]

The 757s don't have it Owen, only the Airbuses do, and the day flight is a Boeing

[owenc]

Well I am happy with that as it has tv's. As long as I get a day flight I don't care.

I was just wondering about the wifi speed on the way over.

[AerRyan]

Its terrible wifi, dont even try to do more than check your Facebook or slowly upload photos. The PING would be very very high due to it being satellite and the download and uploads speeds would be sluggish at best.

On-board wifi is really for the people who NEED internet access, for everyone else its a littke bit of a waste of money. Try it once! But i wouldnt do it more than once, €20 is a nice fork out for WiFi that'll make you cry.

[Una Due Tfc]

Does it work better within Radar/VHF range? IE does it default to traditional vhf tx/rx when able?

[Noxegon]

A little off topic, but Emirates give the first 10MB for free then charge $1 for the next 500MB. Shame that Aer Lingus feels the need to rip off their customers...

[El Bunto]

Does it work better within Radar/VHF range? IE does it default to traditional vhf tx/rx when able?No, it only uses the dorsal antenna which is Ku-band:

http://www.panasonic.aero/InFlightConnectivity/AntennaTechnology.aspx

Panasonic exConnect network:

http://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Panasonic-Ku.jpg

uses Intelsat Global Connex satellites

http://www.intelsat.com/infrastructure/satellites-and-coverage-maps/


For reference, Emirates use onAir connectivity which rides on Inmarsat satellites.

http://www.onair.aero/en/commercial-airlines-how-it-works

[Sober Lark]

Racedo, this Government would be inept at handling the proceeds of such a sale.

[brian_dromey]

The WiFi on the A330s is pretty decent, certainly adequate for browsing, sending iMessages, etc. WiFi is complementary for Business Class passengers, and chargeable in Economy (€8 for an hour, €14 for the flight - I think its actually 24 hours pass). As it is a satellite system it works reliably over the atlantic, I didn't suffer any noticeable problems. Im not sure if Spotify or similar would work, I think youTube is blocked.

Considering UK Train operators charge £4 an hour to use 3G WiFi (the system is provided by EE's 3G network - i.e. the network your phone already uses), I don't think EI prices are unreasonable, given that you are hurtling through the sky at 500mph and don't have a lot of other options.

[El Bunto]

From some digging around, I found these rates for Singapore Airlines


What it costs:

Where OnAir is the provider (all A380s and some Boeing 777 flights), US$14.99 for 15MB of data or US$28.99 for 30MB on laptops and US$5.99 and US$9.99 for 5MB and 10MB, respectively, on smartphones.


On newer Boeing 777-300ERs with Panasonic eXConnect, prices start at US$11.95 for one hour up to US$21.95 for the entire flight.


The latter being what Aer Lingus also use. So they don't seem to be pricing above market rates for that service.

[racedo]

Racedo, this Government would be inept at handling the proceeds of such a sale.

They politicians............... would one expect any different ?

[Noxegon]

How is it that Emirates can do it so much cheaper?

[Faire d'income]

Ryanair:

Clearly, IAG’s recent offers demonstrate that the CMA’s findings were wrong and that its divestment remedies must be revoked in light of this compelling evidence.”

Racedo:

The whole basis of the claim that Ryanair holding a minority shareholding would block any other airline considering a bid has been proven to be false

More Racedo:

IAG have made no formal bid to shareholders.

Therefore how can IAG have called anybodys bluff when no formal offer has been received by shareholders.

Either the latter is complete waffle, or the former is. You can't have it both ways.

As for this:

Completely false.

Please show where LSE listing rules provide UK competition commission authority to get involved with any company.

I said nothing about LSE listing rules and don't have to prove anything. The CMA has ruled they must sell the shares. It is (slowly) happening. I just have to wait and watch FR fail to disprove it. :)

[EI-A330-300]

How is it that Emirates can do it so much cheaper?

Are you really comparing Emirates with Aer Lingus?

Out of Ireland it's just DL who offer it at similar rates. If UA offer the service free (sep 15 eta on roll-out) I'm sure EI will follow. It's not cheap to install so they will charge while they can

Meanwhile newspaper reports suggest IAG will be back next week with new guarantees and EI have assured works T&C's of employment won't change if it goes through.

[Sober Lark]

They politicians..


A quadruple room with AIG and AerLingus sharing the large comfortable bed. Ryanair are in the extra large super comfortable Single Bed and the Irish Government's bed is empty as they are in the bathroom flossing their teeth or something.


Remember, the tax payer needs a return on the large amounts of capital injection AerLingus needed previously...just saying.

[Flitefone]

Noxegon, Emirates have a completely different model than EI for IFEC.

For instance EK carry a much larger proportion of high net worth premium passengers, than most/all European or US airlines. These pax want to buy high value duty fee on board. Even the odd Rolex apparently.

The cabin communications facility allows EK crews use of credit card authorisation facilities in flight, to reduce fraudulent use of credit cards on board, which otherwise permit the pax to exit the aircraft with the goods in hand, but without actually having paid.

EK also want to offer the industry leading IFEC capability, this impacts their pricing policy for cabin comms offered to pax too.

[Tooloose]

Sober Lark,


A very good point regarding return on previous capital injections.
Perhaps you could remind us just how much was injected by the state over the past thirty or forty years. It would surely help to introduce reality into this discussion.
Thanks, in anticipation.

[racedo]

FR & EI are both listed on the London Stock Exchange. He is well aware that this is the authority on which the UK can investigate.

Original statement

I said nothing about LSE listing rules and don't have to prove anything. The CMA has ruled they must sell the shares. It is (slowly) happening. I just have to wait and watch FR fail to disprove it. :)

Your revised statement

As for formal bid to shareholders, No formal offer has been made or sent to Shareholders.

[Sober Lark]

Aer Lingus was bankrupt and close to financial collapse if it wasn't for the Irish tax payer. How you calculate the true value of those payments into today's terms is for those negotiating on our behalf to consider strongly. As tax payers we are reminded that we have turned a corner on adverse economic conditions and if this really is the case then then unless he has something spectacular up his sleeve, Mr. Walsh won't be carpetbagging any green flying machines.

[Skipness One Echo]

The same could be said of SABENA and MALEV in terms of state funding, look what happened there. The main issue of contention is one of medium term strategy outwith any alliance. That may or may not be risky, my feeling is the current strategy has brought them as far as it can.

Even Ryanair changed direction!

[Angry Rebel]

@Sober Lark - I would argue that previous capital injections weren't made for return, they were a cost of maintaining our connectivity before Ryanair became what it is now. In addition, given the state of the business pre the restructuring of the last 10 years, those investments were akin to a handout to staff on outrageous T&Cs and served a useful electioneering purpose.

[El Bunto]

The main issue of contention is one of medium term strategy outwith any alliance. That may or may not be risky, my feeling is the current strategy has brought them as far as it can.

Perhaps that is as far as they wish to go?

If Aer Lingus can finance the A350s and a presumed A32xNEO order then by the early 2020s they'll be set for another 20 years of operation; there won't be any breakthroughs in aircraft efficiency until the big two have amortized their current projects.

So if they're competitive on a direct operating basis with the rest of the industry, the current mix of long and short haul would seem to be sustainable for the future.

[Tooloose]

Sober Lark,


Thanks for the reply. No need to calculate the value in today's terms. It would be good for us know how much it was at the time please.

[EI-A330-300]

Ryanair asks CMA to reconsider Aer Lingus decision - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/0303/684157-ryanair-request/)

[Faire d'income]

Racedo

The substantive issue of the CMA finding was that the FR holding could substantially reduce competition. They had the authority to investigate and they ordered the selling down to 5%. You will appeal and appeal and, like a 2 year old, push everyone to the limit of their reason trying to get your way, but you will only succeed in annoying more and more people. Please keep up the good work in that regard.

There has been no offer, as you said, so your extremely minor argument about blocking a possible takeover isn't even a valid point yet. And the funny thing is, it will only be a valid argument if FR agree to sell. :):)

If there is no offer there is no point.
If there is an offer and FR don't sell, it actually reinforces the CMA finding.

So as I see it, either way FR has to sell. :ok:

[Sober Lark]

State aid of an injection of IR175,000,000 over a three year period in 1993 (losses up to Mar 1993 IR116m) for restructuring purposes only and not to acquire shareholdings in any community carrier. The Government wanted to secure Aer Lingus, secure the staff, secure the jobs and help develop long haul routes (Thailand, Singapore and Bahrain were mentioned). TEAM with their dodgy invoices were also in the mix.

[racedo]

The substantive issue of the CMA finding was that the FR holding could substantially reduce competition. They had the authority to investigate and they ordered the selling down to 5%. You will appeal and appeal and, like a 2 year old, push everyone to the limit of their reason trying to get your way, but you will only succeed in annoying more and more people. Please keep up the good work in that regard.

There has been no offer, as you said, so your extremely minor argument about blocking a possible takeover isn't even a valid point yet. And the funny thing is, it will only be a valid argument if FR agree to sell. :):)

If there is no offer there is no point.
If there is an offer and FR don't sell, it actually reinforces the CMA finding.

So as I see it, either way FR has to sell.

First off all you saying Govt can intervene because on LSE, then not........ do please make up mind

Now stating thats its because IT COULD......... but no evidence yet of it happening rather Ryanair supporting EI when its Employeesgo on strike, no doubt your reasons will changeable for some other reason soon.

There is no offer to shareholders so therefore Ryanair not able to accept or reject any offer, exactly the same situation as every single shareholder.

[Faire d'income]

First off all you saying Govt can intervene because on LSE, then not........ do please make up mind

Now stating thats its because IT COULD

The word 'could' is from the CMA ruling, not me, so I haven't changed anything.

This started with your usual adherence to the letter of everything FR says:

Ryanair have to do nothing.

Already proven that UK Competition Commission statements were a load of as they haven't prevented anybody else making a bid.

And another keyword wasn't 'bid' it was 'takeover'. And, as you ignore every single time it is stated to you, that was a minor part of the finding. The COMPETITION (big clue here Racedo) & Markets Authority found that it could substantially undermine competition. Given the overlap of competition on UK/Ireland routes of the two airlines, this is easy to understand. This is even easier to understand from the EU POV given the overlap of competition on all European routes from Ireland. To rational people.

Anyway, the UK has found against Ryanair. FR is also listed on the LSE. The UK has ordered it to sell down to 5%. This would be hard for France (your example) to do as FR is not listed on the CAC. Thus would appear to me more straightforward for the UK, because FR is listed on the LSE. The LSE will obviously be bound by any UK court ruling. Not hard really.

Finally if there is no offer to shareholders, there is no takeover. No takeover means no conflict with the minor point of the CMA ruling you are clinging to.

Finally, and this is hilarious:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/03/03/uk-aerlingus-m-a-ryanair-idUKKBN0LZ17B20150303

One of the big areas of discussion between ourselves and IAG would be what kind of competition remedies will IAG have to offer up to the European Commission to be able to allow a takeover to take place,

It looks to me like they might run interference on any offer and prove everyone else right after all!

[Schipholhand]

British Airways, which is a result of a fusion between BA and BEA has been rescued from bankruptcy almost as many times as myself, thanks to a good bank manager. The excuse always was that BOAC was forced to fly the Comet, Britannia and the Concorde and BEA the Tridents and BAC111's, all of which were spectacular, in that the VC10 and Concorde looked great, but lost money, even when parked, and the others looked rotten and lost money anyway. In each case the Government 'compensated' the airlines for being the sales promoters of British designed aircraft. During the same period Aer Lingus got approximately 200 million pounds subsidy,in total, some of which was to compensate it for having to cede Gatwick airport rights and Liverpool airport rights to Ryanair, to keep the latter airline from collapse. This amount was about the same as the annual subvention for airlines like Sabena and Alitalia. Iberia was a flying subsidy for some years and never made it's operating costs, let alone profit.

[DollarBill]

Its terrible wifi, dont even try to do more than check your Facebook or slowly upload photos. The PING would be very very high due to it being satellite and the download and uploads speeds would be sluggish at best.... But i wouldnt do it more than once, €20 is a nice fork out for WiFi that'll make you cry.

-I have used the A330 wi-fi 4 times and found it quite satisfactory. You won't be watching youtube but for web-browsing and email it was fine. And EI are marketing it mostly as a business perk (judging by their PR over the new J Class)
I know of an Irish aviation site where a guy was live posting in response to question as he flew to SFO with EI. (boards.ie) By the sounds of it he found it good too. P.S. why would you be uploading photos on non broadband connection.seems silly to me.

How is it that Emirates can do it so much cheaper?

-Could be that EK are absorbing some of the cost themselves in order to offer a "Premium product"..meanwhile EI are obviously letting the service provider decide on the charges.

[AerRyan]

For people who dont know as much as me and others on yere about broadband, they may not realise how slow it is.
They may think its the same as using wifi in the airport. Thats the problem.

[EI-BUD]

Schipol hand,
Ref to your last point in relation to ceding LGW to Ryanair I don't believe this was ever the case.

Aer Lingus exited DUB LGW in wake of gulf war when they were losing money on every seat to London. That was circa 91/92. The route was vacant for most of a year until Cityflyer Express came in. FR followed on in Jan 95.

Aer Lingus did however cede routes on dublin lpl stn and Munich for a 5 year period.

[Just a spotter]

@SH

It was the late Seamus Brennan TD, who as Minister for Transport in 1989 intervened to stop EI crushing (my term) FR, as it had done with a number of other potential startup competitors in the 80's. The routes ex-Dublin that were allocated to FR were Luton, Stansted, Liverpool and Munich. Brennan was one of the more pro-competition/pro-"open market" oriented members of Fianna Fáil, a position that put him somewhat at odds with the main body of the party. He used his power as Minister/regulator to allow a, then small airline, to get out from under the then all powerful State Flag Carrier.

From the Dáil record;

Mr. S. Brennan: I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 17 and 63 together. On 20 September 1989, following a review which I had conducted of the recent performances of Aer Lingus and Ryanair, I announced a number of changes in the allocation of routes to the two airlines. These changes included the grant of sole operating rights to Ryanair on the Dublin to Luton, Stansted, Liverpool and Munich routes and to Aer Lingus on the Dublin to Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester and Paris routes.Dáil Éireann - 01/Feb/1990 Ceisteanna ? Questions. Oral Answers. - Air Transport Policy. (http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1990020100012?opendocument)

JAS

[ayroplain]

Unions remain unconvinced by IAG?s plan for Aer Lingus (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/unions-remain-unconvinced-by-iag-s-plan-for-aer-lingus-1.2128999)

They don't say what the "consequences" will be but we can all hazard a guess or two.

As this farce rolls on and on it becomes perfectly clear that the biggest obstacles to any takeover of EI are the unions. Insofar as they are concerned this is all about further diminution of power and who runs the airline. Expect them to fight this to the death.

[EI-A330-300]

EI are suspending SNN-BOS for 10 days over Easter. 752 needed at DUB (expect 330 delay). Not gone down well in some quarters, but sends a message the Government have no power to stop them!

[owenc]

Thats the first i've heard.

[airbourne]

I wasn't aware that you worked for EI owen hence why this is news to you!

[El Bunto]

So an A330 is still in maintenance, therefore they're nicking an 757 from Shannon for Dublin to Boston?

Not only do they have to refund or transfer the passengers booked from Shannon, but also offload surplus at Dublin too and handle them?

One wonders how that was simpler and cheaper than hiring an HiFly A340 or whatever for a few days.

'Use it or lose it' they say of the Shannon services, now with the disclaimer 'unless Dublin needs it whereby you lose it anyway'.

[Una Due Tfc]

3 A330s in maintenance, plus 1 in Sweden. The 2 with the French MRO have been badly delayed

[AerRyan]

Will this translate to more stealing of Shannon aircraft?

[Una Due Tfc]

Haha oh dear. They are Aer Lingus' aircraft (well Air Contractor's but you know what I mean). As such they are perfectly entitled to chop and change as they see fit. Is it annoying? Certainly yes for those planning on flying in or out of Shannon. The French are picking up the tab. I'm told everyone effected in either DUB or SNN has been called and offered money to fly a day or 2 earlier or later, or an alternate booking with UA/DL etc, or a refund.

They were told they would have 2 more A330s next week than they actually will. More pax effected in DUB by cancellations than SNN. Less pax overall negatively effected this way. Also with the week that's in it most U.S. tourists want to be fly to Dublin next week for the parade.

[Epsomdog]

Airport charges deal could end the Aer Lingus saga - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/airport-charges-deal-could-end-the-aer-lingus-saga-31066823.html)

So it would appear Cork & Shannon airports might be the key to the deal?

[AerRyan]

Airport charges deal could end the Aer Lingus saga - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/airport-charges-deal-could-end-the-aer-lingus-saga-31066823.html)

So it would appear Cork & Shannon airports might be the key to the deal?
That's a fair concern, Im rather surprised he didnt address it at the start.

I know that if I ran Cork or Shannon Airports, id screw Aer Lingus knowing they couldn't do anything about it.

[j636]

That's a fair concern, Im rather surprised he didnt address it at the start.

I know that if I ran Cork or Shannon Airports, id screw Aer Lingus knowing they couldn't do anything about it.

Two points:
If charges were raised BA could destroy the LHR service while still operating it by using really bad slot pairs to serve the route

IAG could scrap all T/A ops if SNN were to take advantage and that could potentially include US PHL service!

Airport charges deal could end the Aer Lingus saga - Independent.ie

So it would appear Cork & Shannon airports might be the key to the deal?

Trade Unions supporting the deal will be critical IMO.

[Sober Lark]

When you consider the Irish Sea crossings you have Irish Ferries and Stena Line both charging the same extortionate prices. Before Ryanair it was the same with air travel on to and off the island so lets not forget that. WW knew the deal with AIG was never going to pass the unions. My only disappointment was that Ryanair never had to show their hand. That would have been interesting.

[owenc]

Sorry this is an irrelevant question but when does Aer Lingus update their fares? I am booking transatlantic and its a good price but its a fine balance due to the currency exchange. I will be able to book flights for me on Thursday.

Just don't want it to be increasing too much. Its already started increasing by £40.

[EI-A330-300]

Sorry this is an irrelevant question but when does Aer Lingus update their fares? I am booking transatlantic and its a good price but its a fine balance due to the currency exchange. I will be able to book flights for me on Thursday.

Just don't want it to be increasing too much. Its already started increasing by £40.

Various times and as fare class sell out for routes, they had their big T/A sale and if it's tarted to increase then it will likely continue especially up until September/October. Given the pound is so good with the euro I really can#t see you not getting a good deal.

[owenc]

Its just that I have a budget and the hotels are super expensive in the US now due to the pathetic exchange rate. I am hoping the price stays the same.

[Una Due Tfc]

Unless you are extremely unlucky and a whole bunch of people book on the same flights you want Owen, it shouldn't go up significantly in 4 days. From your previous posts I'm assuming you will get the daytime flight back. I believe this is proving a big hit with U.S. visitors. It's also got about 40% less capacity than the other flights so I'm guessing that's where you're getting pinched? Fingers crossed for you anyway. Let us know how you get on.

[owenc]

Yes I want to take the dayflight for the experience and jetlag.

Hopefully the price stays the same.

[vkid]

Surprised to see Branson getting involved.

Virgin concerned over IAG Aer Lingus bid - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0320/688642-aer-lingus/)

[Skipness One Echo]

Odd that SRB is worried about connections to Vancouver given it's been dropped. Seems like the usual kneejerk sadly. Not only that, he's closing down his own operation that connects!?!?

[PC767]

I like Sir Richard, but this article/intervention feels like he's just steering unnecessary trouble.

He complained, perhaps with justification, about BA monopolies for many years, and when gifted the opportunity to do something about his complaint, Little Red, quickly retreated away.

Long term, Aer Lingus needs to join one of the main players to survive, and IAG is perhaps the best place to ensure their survival as a brand.

Would Delta/Virgin benefit in the long term on trans atlantic routes from a vulnerable Aer Lingus.

Who would Delta/Virgin wish to compete with. An independent Aer Lingus or an IAG Aer Lingus.

[EI-A330-300]

PC767

Quiet the opposite, DL of all US carriers at DUB are stable/declining while all others are growing!

Aer Lingus cost base would squeese any carriers flying accross thw poind, IAG would just add to this and put more pressure on them.

[BFS watcher]

Any update on what is going on with the court action?

[El Bunto]

Who would Delta/Virgin wish to compete with. An independent Aer Lingus or an IAG Aer Lingus.

As far as I am aware there is no cross-subsidisation within IAG, so if Delta went on the attack against Aer Lingus then they'd be standing on their own anyhow.

IAG has benefits in terms of centralisation of admin functions and purchasing, but each airline in the group has to operate on its own financial basis.

If IAG-AL was under relentless attack, what exactly do you think IAG could do about it?

[Epsomdog]

In the press today. As a carrot, supporting Heathrow expansion, the airport authority is offering incentives to make LHR / Scotland routes more attractive to airlines.

I wonder what form these will take? Will it be enough to persuade EI to continue the (ABZ,EDI) operation without VS?

Heathrow commits to increasing domestic flights in bid for expansion - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11490703/Heathrow-commits-to-increasing-domestic-flights-in-bid-for-expansion.html)

[AerRyan]

Stobart going back to Shannon, but at 8 times less the amount of flights than in June last year.

SNN-BHX will resume at 6x PW operated on a W pattern from Dublin on the 18th of June.

[speedbird_481_papa]

Stobart bowing into pressure as the SNN route was extremely popular, high demand in the west country

[j636]

Surprised to learn that Aer Lingus procedure since sealed cockpit doors came into operation that 2 members of staff must be present at all times int he cockpit. IAA say all Irish airlines operate such a policy.

Easyjet (from tomorrow) and Norwegian will also follow such procedure.

[Epsomdog]

Not sure why you're suprised Aer Lingus has this as a SOP? It's a mature, well developed airline that complies with regulators guidance.

The only function of the second person is to manually open the cockpit door, to let the PNF back in the cockpit. The assumption made is the PF is fully occupied.

[Hangar6]

A330 returns to fleet all white ready for painting then new lie flat seats in J , that's 8 plus 3B757 and summer lease 767 , 12 aircraft for the t/ATL , excellent growth !

[AerRyan]

So EI-EWR is returning?

[Hangar6]

Arrived from MNL this morning

[EI-A330-300]

VS to raise there "concerns" with the European Commission, while IAG have reportedly extended their LHR guarantee to 7 years.


Meanwhile EY have spoken about their stake in EI and they trimmed it's plans because EI wouldn't fly to UAE to allow increase flights. Think EI have made the right decision here because EY have cut capacity on the route....


http://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/etihad-trimmed-aer-lingus-plan

[Una Due Tfc]

I notice an Omni B762 is doing EI124, something go tech?

[El Bunto]

I notice an Omni B762 is doing EI124, something go tech?

It's N225AX, is that the one they're taking on a damp lease for the Summer?

[AerRyan]

Omni 767-200 filling in the A330 shortage, along with a 757 from SNN and a titan 767-300.

Also yes, that OMNI will be operating SNN-BOS for the summer

[ATCO97]

EI1127 left DUB this morn for KLAS! Omni B767, must be
Positioning home after doing EI flights?

[El Bunto]

EI1127 left DUB this morn for KLAS! Omni B767, must be
Positioning home after doing EI flights?Only did one eastbound revenue flight and then sat at Dublin for a few days. Good opportunity for cabin-crew familiarisation with the type, I guess.

I see they promptly climbed to a nice perch at 40,000 ft, the benefits of not having all those lardy passengers onboard.

[AerRyan]

So is there anything new expected for S 2016?

[EI-A330-300]

So is there anything new expected for S 2016?

EI have practically said DUB-LAX will resume and most likely a second destination or increase frequency on a current route to for the additional 330.

[Una Due Tfc]

Yeah I'm hearing they want another A330 for next summer

[AerRyan]

EI have practically said DUB-LAX will resume and most likely a second destination or increase frequency on a current route to for the additional 330.

Surely another route would be better served than DUB-LAX? With Ethiopian serving it already from June, the market is lessened.

[Dontgothere]

I think the reason that entering into the DUB-LAX may take EI's fancy is that they can play two things in their favour, better connections from many points in Europe, and the pre-clearance, neither of which Ethiopian will benefit from. Plus there's a brand recognition in a sense that Ethiopian won't be the first airline that comes to mind when going USA-IRL

[EI-A330-300]

Surely another route would be better served than DUB-LAX? With Ethiopian serving it already from June, the market is lessened.

I think the reason that entering into the DUB-LAX may take EI's fancy is that they can play two things in their favour, better connections from many points in Europe, and the pre-clearance, neither of which Ethiopian will benefit from. Plus there's a brand recognition in a sense that Ethiopian won't be the first airline that comes to mind when going USA-IRL

It's nothing new with EI, they have being building back their old core routes which are can now be operated on a lower cost base and EU connections to make them more sustainable.

I can't see EI going more than 4 weekly or even 3 weekly so there could be room for both. It really depends on how much traffic ET pick up in DUB as I suspect it should be lowish as there has to be a good deal of direct point to point from Africa-LA for them to open a route.

[Una Due Tfc]

Exactly. The plane will need to be mostly full with folks going between LA and Addis Ababa. There'll probably be very few seats available for people doing DUB-LAX, and as a result they won't be cheap I'm guessing!

[BCA03]

€500 will get you a return fare Dubin - Los Angeles for the initial 6 months. Rumour has it also Ethiopian moving there trans Atlantic stop over to Dublin from Rome. As it currently stands x3 Toronto and daily IAd. So a lot of movement from ET in the early morning arrivals.

[AerRyan]

Will there be any short haul expansion in the next few years? (Excluding Stobart)

[Dontgothere]

I wouldn't lay much money on short haul expansion, not even Stobart Air. You may see capacity increases as the A319s start to disappear in favour of A320s, and maybe a seasonal route launched with a skeleton frequency, kinda like Pula as an EI example from recent years. I'm always a bit surprised that Greek destinations haven't been big from any Irish airport, maybe EI could dip their toes in the water and try a route to Kos or somewhere of the like.

[AerRyan]

Schedules are now available for the new SNN-BHX route. It will be operated 6x weekly by a Cork based aircraft, contary to reports of it using a DUB based aircraft. As a result the later flight that departs at 19:05 will now depart at 15:00.

[johnrizzo2000]

Any idea if IAD is continuing for the winter? Toronto goes to 4 x weekly, so maybe IAD could be continued 3 x weekly on the days the 757 isn't operating Toronto?

[Jamie2k9]

Any idea if IAD is continuing for the winter? Toronto goes to 4 x weekly, so maybe IAD could be continued 3 x weekly on the days the 757 isn't operating Toronto?

No planned currently, expect fully confined by June, the 752 will operate ORD additional on Tue/Sat and a recovery day on Thursday. In Janruary it switches to BOS.

Good to see LCY-US/Canada bookable to.

[Skipness One Echo]

Good to see LCY-US/Canada bookable to.
This is a codeshare with BA?

[BAladdy]

This is a codeshare with BA?

Yes it is. EI will codeshare on BACF's up to 5 x Daily LCY-DUB services from 30th April. BACF will increase the service to up to 6 x daily from June 1st.

Flights will operate using the flight numbers EI8360-EI8371.

[johnrizzo2000]

No planned currently, expect fully confined by June, the 752 will operate ORD additional on Tue/Sat and a recovery day on Thursday. In Janruary it switches to BOS.



Forgot about the extra ORD flights! Not entirely surprised If IAD is gone for winter! Hopefully it makes a return for summer 2016, maybe on the 757!

Is the 757 going to operate EI137, or extra rotations to Boston?

[Jamie2k9]

Forgot about the extra ORD flights! Not entirely surprised If IAD is gone for winter! Hopefully it makes a return for summer 2016, maybe on the 757!

Is the 757 going to operate EI137, or extra rotations to Boston?

Nothing scheduled for NY period with 752's outside of YYZ yet. Little to early.

I was reminded of the fact they are getting another B752 this year/early next so suspect IAD has little chance until it arrives at operating year round.

[cornishsimon]

Any pictures of the Omni 767 ?
Is it in EI livery ?


cs

[Angry Rebel]

No, it was in Omni colours

[gavinhicks]

i saw in an article today Stephen kavanagh said ei lost 44 million pounds at BFS over the course of their operations there, how are they performing at BHD

[AerRyan]

Will the Omni 767 leased by EI for the summrt get any paint job?

Also, DUB-IAD commenced today.

[Una Due Tfc]

Will the Omni 767 leased by EI for the summrt get any paint job?

Also, DUB-IAD commenced today.

I doubt it. It's a high six figure sum to paint a widebody. IMO 3 months service is not worth the investment. Maybe do a tail only job since the OMNI fuselage is already white

[Una Due Tfc]

EIN139 being operated by a Titan B763 today I see, covering for another A330 refit? Long term?

[brian_dromey]

The 762 for use at SNN is due to be in full EI colours. Omni fuselage is silver, not white, maybe thats whey they decided not to do an "albino" livery like on some of the Regional fleet, the first 757 (temporarily) and on the #Socialjet.

[EISNN]

They've done dual colour schemes with L10-11's with both ATA in the late '80's (N191AT) and again with British Caladonian in '96 (G-BBAF). For a twelve week lease it would be financially prudent for a dual scheme ie green tail and Aer Lingus on the fuselage but allow the remainder of the fuselage to remain silver. Besides by all accounts in news papers it's not the outside that's going to the issue. More like what/who is on the inside. :E

[EI-A330-300]

The new IRFU livery (will be on 2 aircraft) has been rolled out in SNN. Picture by Malcolm Nason.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shanair/17452708685/

[vkid]

That is manky imo.

[alserire]

Agreed. Really hope I don't end up on one for any reason!

[corkfly]

Hi there, just a query on the IAG takeover regarding LHR slots. Could a condition of the sale be that Aer Lingus would have to 'sell' the slots to the Government for a nominal fee, with the government then leasing the slots for use on Irish routes back to IAG (or indeed anyone else interested in operating the route in the future perhaps with a codeshare with BA). By doing this, would it not ensure future connectivity between Ireland and LHR?

[Cyrano]

Hi there, just a query on the IAG takeover regarding LHR slots. Could a condition of the sale be that Aer Lingus would have to 'sell' the slots to the Government for a nominal fee, with the government then leasing the slots for use on Irish routes back to IAG (or indeed anyone else interested in operating the route in the future perhaps with a codeshare with BA). By doing this, would it not ensure future connectivity between Ireland and LHR?

Wouldn't be feasible, I'm afraid (leaving aside whether it's commercially realistic). Only airlines are entitled to hold slots.

[Dontgothere]

Aer Lingus are going to start serving Liverpool again. However, people expecting props may look elsewhere as this route will be A320-served at a frequency of 16 flights a week.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/business/liverpool-john-lennon-airport-strikes-9300848

[Ian Brooks]

Also big increases at BHX and MAN with both upto 6 a day some days
Will Ryanair respond and fight back


Ian

[Una Due Tfc]

I guess we know what the Little Red A320s will be doing when they come back

[gavinhicks]

Good to see ei expanding with the iad route extended to Jan 6 the lpl route is going to go well I'd say fares are from 19.99. The restoration of the a320 at Shannon is also great news

[Noxegon]

Ryanair will fight back. They've announced increases on Liverpool, Birmingham, and Manchester. Can't see them all being sustainable...

[Cian]

Fighting for the P2P leisure traffic alone isn't worth fighting for

Nobody is going to self-connect (and pay two legs of baggage fees) for a TATL flight.

Even with the increased frequency the Ryanair timings are usually unusable for P2P business travel.

[EI-A330-300]

EI will survive on LPL, some may go to EIR but they will be fine. Yet again they have caught Ryanair on the hop who have decreased LPL/EMA in favour of MAN/BHX.

Now they have to dump capacity and cut fares to 9.99.

They have responded with 2 more daily BHX and 1 daily MAN and LPL. You will see them pull back capacity in time like they already did at BHX when it was 6 daily not so long ago!

[Charlie Roy]

Even with the increased frequency the Ryanair timings are usually unusable for P2P business travel.

Do you have an example of where the Dublin to UK flight times of Aer Lingus are better than those of Ryanair for business travellers?

[Cian]

Leeds - Ryanair get you in after 9am, flight back is before 6pm. Airport is nearly half an hour from the city. EI are ~0730 and 1840

Glasgow - flights back are either too early (1525) or too late (2155)

Newcastle - gets you in at about 11am, and home the next day most days,as opposed to 8am and 7pm roughly on EI

Its generally the same story on all dual-served routes. EI sacrifice frame utilisation for better timings, FR sacrifice suitable timings for frame utilisation. Two models, both should work but one has far higher yielding fares.

When FR's capacity dumping ends on MAN/BHX/LPL it'll be status quo again there.

[Charlie Roy]

From the end of October Aer Lingus will move from Berlin Schönefeld (SXF) to Berlin Tegel (TXL).

[Charlie Roy]

Leeds - Ryanair get you in after 9am, flight back is before 6pm. Airport is nearly half an hour from the city. EI are ~0730 and 1840

This changes come winter.

Business traveller going from Dublin to Leeds:
Ryanair arrival at 9am, departure at 7:25pm
Aer Lingus arrival at 8:05am, departure at 5:40pm
(No clear winner)

Business traveller going from Leeds to Dublin:
Ryanair arrival at 7:35am, departure at 8:55pm
Aer Lingus arrival at 9:40am, departure at 4pm
(No clear winner)

The smart business traveller will be open to doing each leg with a different airline, and that for all routes. I don't know if that happens a lot though...

[EI-BUD]

Charlie Roy,
The Gatwick schedule by Aer Lingus is better for the business traveller with Aer Lingus than FR... That's a further example...

Ei bud

[Jamie2k9]

I guess we know what the Little Red A320s will be doing when they come back

They won't be flying for EI over the winter, the expanded schedule will more than adequately be covered by current fleet. Possibly leased next summer but not before then.

[cornishsimon]

I notice regional have cancelled two out of the last three days on the new DUB-NQY route. Is this down to poor bookings or aircraft issues ?


cs

[NewquayJacob]

Cancellation today is due to inclement weather below minimum operating criteria. Yesterday's flight was delayed then cancelled as well as Fridays. Weather on Friday was like today's, so that cancellation could be due to weather although not sure about yesterday's.

Lastest metar
EGHQ 241050Z 25011KT 0100 R12/0200 FG VV/// 12/12 Q1022

[airbourne]

I have taken that LBA-DUB many times and at near 2100 is seriously depressing. The days work is done by 5pm-ish, then have to hang around until that time. By the time you get in, back to car and home you are talking midnight.

[EI-A330-300]

Sale approval imminent being discussed by Government, the EU have raised no concerns according to reports either.

Should be known today

[ayroplain]

the EU have raised no concerns
No concerns? About BA/EI as a monopoly on LHR-DUB - only this time as a joint operation. How strange...........and what about the UK CMA? Why aren't they up in arms over this prospect?

[EI-A330-300]

No concerns? About BA/EI as a monopoly on LHR-DUB - only this time as a joint operation. How strange...........and what about the UK CMA? Why aren't they up in arms over this prospect?

The exact same as MAD-LHR, just like DUB there is 4 other London airports available. You may see higher capacity to LHR with wide bodies used instead ;)

[Cyrano]

No concerns? About BA/EI as a monopoly on LHR-DUB - only this time as a joint operation. How strange...........and what about the UK CMA? Why aren't they up in arms over this prospect?

Why aren't they up in arms? Perhaps because there is as yet no formal bid or transaction for the competition regulator (CMA or DG COMP) to evaluate? Once IAG makes a formal bid and there is something for the regulator to look at, you can expect it to get involved.

[EI-BUD]

The whole debate rages on about the finer details of the promises that IAG is expected to make. Yes we need a commitment that IAG would not scrap flights from Ireland to the UK, and that guarantee looks good for 7 years. But there are 2 issues here:


1. BA could simply axe their own 8 times daily DUB LHR route and put the slots elsewhere, and EI could step up the route to 321's as opposed to 320 (and the rare 319s on the route these days). So in effect, capacity could be reduced...


2. Qatar Airways are in the background with a large interest in IAG, while the most likely would be prevented from taking over a majority of the group, changes in dynamic and ownership, may put any agreements made now between Ireland and IAG is doubt... not as if the Irish government could regain its shareholding.


All in all DUB LHR is a very attractive route of significant scale. So it will be in place, we can be very sure about that. But it is Cork and Shannon that needs the assurances the most....


EI-BUD

[EI-A330-300]

Sale has being backed officially

Press Conference to follow

[EI-A330-300]

7 year LHR guarantee (years 6/7 dependent on 2014 airport charges not being exceeded)
Articles of Association to include LHR legalities
Head office and brand to stay in Ireland
Minister of Finance to keep 1 Share with powers

Jobs
635+ new jobs (150 by end of 2016) by 2020
No compulsory redundancies
Rights etc protected

Dublin
At 4 N American Destinations, 8 additional aircraft (2 routes next year) and 2.5 million additional passengers by 2020.

Cork
Cork-Paris/Amsterdam kept.

Shannon
Enhanced BA service (LCY-SNN-JFK)

KLM will remain part of AMS.

[EI-BUD]

This in my view can only be a positive development. Despite commentators on RTE explaining how the company has been profitable etc. the fact is that Ryanair is growing its point to point traffic, and the Aer Lingus needs to be part of something bigger.


Should we expect to see KLM launch Dublin Amsterdam quite quickly to complement its new Belfast City Amsterdam route to secure its long standing connecting traffic business at AMS


What is involved with IAG gaining majority shareholding? Is it a foregone conclusion that Ryanair will sell? I think I read today as part of their results that they await a formal offer ....

[EI-A330-300]

What is involved with IAG gaining majority shareholding? Is it a foregone conclusion that Ryanair will sell? I think I read today as part of their results that they await a formal offer ....

If they don't they will be forced be authorities in UK/Europe anyway at some stage.

Should we expect to see KLM launch Dublin Amsterdam quite quickly to complement its new Belfast City Amsterdam route to secure its long standing connecting traffic business at AMS

KLM will remain part of the deal.

[gavinhicks]

Will aer lingus retain their leisure routes from cork and Shannon from this deal I wouldn't be surprised if KLM enter the Irish market with competition to aer lingus

[Just a spotter]

IMHO, It's still all about the slots. I can not see any strategic value to IAG in the acquisition of EI other than the LHR slots (either in IAG getting them or preventing a competitor having them).

The devil will be in the detail. Unless there's explicit rules on the slot pairs/times/usage, suppose the following; the Irish government get a broad guarantee that the the number of EI slots used for routes to Ireland remains the same with IAG agreeing on the condition that the route remains profitable. In that case, couldn't IAG just move the EI flights to less revenue generative times, increase the costs base (say running a 321 rather than a 320), declare the route/slot pair unprofitable the reallocate to to a BA long haul?

Similarly, BA could just as easily drop their current DUB service and reallocate those slots, allowing the EI portion of IAG to run a monopoly on the routes as a BA feeder and jack the prices up.

Still, maybe within 7 years the politicians in the UK will get their act together and either approve a capacity increase at Heathrow or build a brand new bigger airport somewhere ... either of which would render the above 'conspiracy theories' moot.

JAS

[EI-A330-300]

Will aer lingus retain their leisure routes from cork and Shannon from this deal I wouldn't be surprised if KLM enter the Irish market with competition to aer lingus

While profitable but seeing Vueling enter Cork wouldn't surprise me.

[gavinhicks]

Your right there with iag owning aer lingus how much of Heathrow slots will they own

[racedo]

If they don't they will be forced be authorities in UK/Europe anyway at some stage.

Legally now impossible to enforce as the takeover has proven the basis for decision was incorrect. Attempts by a majority shareholder to enforce a sale would set all kind of precedents that UK would want to avoid.

Lots of legal precedence and protection for minority shareholders and UK would basically have to scrap them all.

It would basically mean that takeover law would change which would annoy Tory paymasters.

In practice Ryanair will probably just take the cash after forcing this to go through monoplies and mergers review.

[gavinhicks]

How will acl operations be affected has Shannon transatlantic connectivity been guaranteed

[EI-A330-300]

How will acl operations be affected has Shannon transatlantic connectivity been guaranteed

Not guaranteed but secure they also hinted AA may expand at SNN so you may see year round PHL or extended season.

[EI-BUD]

How will acl operations be affected has Shannon transatlantic connectivity been guaranteed


Gavin,
I suspect that Shannon transatlantic routes with EI are never guaranteed and the airline operates these purely on a commercial basis.... I.e. if they pay there way they are sustained.... by all accounts sounds like the operation with a 757 in place is paying its way...


Lets hope
EI-BUD

[AerRyan]

Will be interesting to see if IAG try and use SNN as a secondary hub.

[NWSRG]

This has to be good news for EI...in today's world, smaller airlines are struggling, and security comes from being part of a bigger group. EI is a well-run and profitable small airline, but to maintain that position will become more difficult against the consolidated big guys. Now, IAG can bring investment in a significant way...4 new transatlantic routes for a start. That has to be attractive. LHR will be secure, as FR and others will provide the competitive pressure. And I've always seen this move as IAG ensuring they have insurance against the lack of an R3 at LHR. They can now route north American TA business via either LHR or DUB and south American via LHR or MAD. If you live in Glasgow or Manchester, a BA / EI flight via DUB to JFK / BOS / SFO / IAD / YYZ / MCO etc. might be a tempting proposition...

[AerRyan]

BA1/3 taking on pax at Shannon! That'd be an interesting development.

[CabinCrewe]

BA1/3 taking on pax at Shannon! That'd be an interesting development.
Would be surprised if there were huge numbers queuing up for it.
Its a niche and very expensive route.

[gavinhicks]

what is the general synopsis with this deal on this forum personally i think iag will bring greater brand recognition and a lot of money and investment into aer lingus but i think dublin is all thats going to be on their radar in the years to come unless we see vueling expand to cork shannon and possibly knock

[Faire d'income]

Quote:
If they don't they will be forced be authorities in UK/Europe anyway at some stage.
Legally now impossible to enforce as the takeover has proven the basis for decision was incorrect. Attempts by a majority shareholder to enforce a sale would set all kind of precedents that UK would want to avoid.

Lots of legal precedence and protection for minority shareholders and UK would basically have to scrap them all.

It would basically mean that takeover law would change which would annoy Tory paymasters.

In practice Ryanair will probably just take the cash after forcing this to go through monoplies and mergers review.

Why are you persisting over and over with this blatant distortion of reality?

You insist that the blocking of a takeover was the basis for the decision. It wasn't. It was a minor part of it.

Secondly, if Ryanair doesn't sell its share, and IAG withdraws, then FR WILL HAVE BLOCKED A TAKEOVER thus proving the decision correct.

Who are you trying to fool?

[racedo]

Why are you persisting over and over with this blatant distortion of reality?

You insist that the blocking of a takeover was the basis for the decision. It wasn't. It was a minor part of it.

Secondly, if Ryanair doesn't sell its share, and IAG withdraws, then FR WILL HAVE BLOCKED A TAKEOVER thus proving the decision correct.

Who are you trying to fool?

IAG doesn't need Ryanairs shareholding to complete a takeover.

Not up to a court to decide a takeover.

[AerRyan]

IAG doesn't need Ryanairs shareholding to complete a takeover.

Not up to a court to decide a takeover.
Yes they do, Ryanair have 30%, If they block it and convince 20% of shareholders not to sell (easy) then they have blocked it.

Also the EU courts have the ultimate decision.

[bnt]

IAG presentation

file:///C:/Users/(user)/Downloads/Aer%20Lingus%20Cash%20Offer.pdf
Got a link to the file online? You posted a link to the file on your PC, but we can't access your PC ... you hope. :E

[j636]

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9Mjg4NjEzfENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZ T0z&t=1

[Sober Lark]

So all going to their plan, Ryanair gets its money back and on one hand EY doubles their relatively small investment but on the other hand their online partner (remember their original aim was to gain more European routes) will go as EI will aim to increase PAX via LHR to APAC/Africa. For EI it would be like dragging a horse to water trying to convince passengers on the merits of LHR when an ever increasing number are enjoying the ease and convenience of AUH and BDX.

[840]

If EI moved their flights to T5, it would vastly improve the experience of connecting in Heathrow.

Is there any chance we might see a resumption of flights from Cork and/or Shannon to Gatwick?

[Una Due Tfc]

These 4 new US destinations. Will they be from the ROI or the island of Ireland?
Will they be served by EI or by the IAG group (IE for example if BA stopped a flight in SNN one way to say IAD, would this count as one of them?), will they all be from DUB if they are EI or say would EG SNN-ORD or BFS-JFK start on a 757? And whats the time frame? Several of the A330s were due to remain alongside the A350s, giving far more extra capacity than is required to start just 4 new US routes.

[EI-A330-300]

UDT

Dublin only, 2 next year.

Expect BOS may see a 3rd daily flight at some point, EI are the only dominant carrier offering Euro connections from there.

[AerRyan]

Not necessarily Dublin only, I have seen no reports stating that EI will start new transatlantic routes from Dublin, they all say from Ireland.
Of course they will mainly if not exclusively Dublin but I certainly would not rule out another Transatlantic route from Shannon or maybe Cork (not BFS)

[EI-A330-300]

Not necessarily Dublin only, I have seen no reports stating that EI will start new transatlantic routes from Dublin, they all say from Ireland.
Of course they will mainly if not exclusively Dublin but I certainly would not rule out another Transatlantic route from Shannon or maybe Cork (not BFS)

It's Dublin, even EI would admit that, they are adding 1 A330 next year from DUB and 2 routes. 2 more new (not existing airports served) following from DUB also and you don't believe they would try a new airport from SNN which DUB hasn't got?

[Una Due Tfc]

Cheers EI. LAX was already due to start next year. As agreements with UA expire I expect EI to move more towards AA hubs : LAX, MIA, DFW etc

Edit: AA fly CLT and PHL daily from DUB with A330s, what's to stop EI replacing them and there's 2 of the 4 new routes?

[Fairdealfrank]

Why aren't they up in arms? Perhaps because there is as yet no formal bid or transaction for the competition regulator (CMA or DG COMP) to evaluate? Once IAG makes a formal bid and there is something for the regulator to look at, you can expect it to get involved.


Probably because VS isn’t whinging this time. Which other carrier wants to LHR-DUB? It’s not an issue.




The whole debate rages on about the finer details of the promises that IAG is expected to make. Yes we need a commitment that IAG would not scrap flights from Ireland to the UK, and that guarantee looks good for 7 years. But there are 2 issues here:


1. BA could simply axe their own 8 times daily DUB LHR route and put the slots elsewhere, and EI could step up the route to 321's as opposed to 320 (and the rare 319s on the route these days). So in effect, capacity could be reduced...


2. Qatar Airways are in the background with a large interest in IAG, while the most likely would be prevented from taking over a majority of the group, changes in dynamic and ownership, may put any agreements made now between Ireland and IAG is doubt... not as if the Irish government could regain its shareholding.


All in all DUB LHR is a very attractive route of significant scale. So it will be in place, we can be very sure about that. But it is Cork and Shannon that needs the assurances the most....


EI-BUD


Why would BA cut LHR-DUB? This is not about LHR slots, BA has more than it can handle with the takeover and closing of BD, hence the increase in its shorthaul holiday routes from there. AFAIK, this is because of a current shortage of suitable aircraft which, once resolved, should see the commencement of new BA longhaul routes.

Because of the shortage of rwy capacity at LHR, more UK airports are connected to AMS and DUB than to LHR, and consequently, EI and KL take a great deal of transfer pax that, given sufficient LHR rwy capacity and therefore sufficient links to smaller UK airports, could be BA’s.

Buying EI gives IAG an opportunity to grab some of this transfer traffic. Equally important, it prevents another carrier from doing so.

That is what IAG ownership of EI is really about, it’s not BD reheated.




This in my view can only be a positive development. Despite commentators on RTE explaining how the company has been profitable etc. the fact is that Ryanair is growing its point to point traffic, and the Aer Lingus needs to be part of something bigger.


Yes, this deal very much benefits EI. Also looking forward to EI’s return to the Oneworld Alliance.



This has to be good news for EI...in today's world, smaller airlines are struggling, and security comes from being part of a bigger group. EI is a well-run and profitable small airline, but to maintain that position will become more difficult against the consolidated big guys. Now, IAG can bring investment in a significant way...4 new transatlantic routes for a start. That has to be attractive. LHR will be secure, as FR and others will provide the competitive pressure. And I've always seen this move as IAG ensuring they have insurance against the lack of an R3 at LHR. They can now route north American TA business via either LHR or DUB and south American via LHR or MAD. If you live in Glasgow or Manchester, a BA / EI flight via DUB to JFK / BOS / SFO / IAD / YYZ / MCO etc. might be a tempting proposition...

Agree, it’s win-win all round. Also when it comes to new aircraft, being part of IAG can secure a better deal.

The LHR rwy issue has a bearing up to a point: expansion at DUB could be much bigger if (when?) the rwy doesn’t materialise.



BA1/3 taking on pax at Shannon! That'd be an interesting development.



Would be surprised if there were huge numbers queuing up for it.
Its a niche and very expensive route.


Pax joining/ leaving at SNN wouldn’t disrupt the schedule and wouldn't add to costs, so may as well do it, but it’s going to be a problem on the eastbound leg!


If EI moved their flights to T5, it would vastly improve the experience of connecting in Heathrow.


Had taken it for granted that this would happen! The common travel area arrivals channel is now set up there, and it would also make transfers a whole lot easier. Moreover, IB are also at LHR-5.

[racedo]

Yes they do, Ryanair have 30%, If they block it and convince 20% of shareholders not to sell (easy) then they have blocked it.

Also the EU courts have the ultimate decision.

If 50.0000001 % of shareholders block a takeover is blocked.

Nothing to do with a court as court cannot order a takeover.

[AerRyan]

If 50.0000001 % of shareholders block a takeover is blocked.
Cool.
That helps your argument, how?
Without Ryanair 30%, they can convince others not to sell and suddenly we have our 50%.

Nothing to do with a court as court cannot order a takeover.
No they can't order one, but they can certainly block it.

[EI-BUD]

Why would BA cut LHR-DUB? This is not about LHR slots, BA has more than it can handle with the takeover and closing of BD, hence the increase in its shorthaul holiday routes from there. AFAIK, this is because of a current shortage of suitable aircraft which, once resolved, should see the commencement of new BA longhaul routes.

Because of the shortage of rwy capacity at LHR, more UK airports are connected to AMS and DUB than to LHR, and consequently, EI and KL take a great deal of transfer pax that, given sufficient LHR rwy capacity and therefore sufficient links to smaller UK airports, could be BA’s.

Buying EI gives IAG an opportunity to grab some of this transfer traffic. Equally important, it prevents another carrier from doing so.

That is what IAG ownership of EI is really about, it’s not BD reheated.


Fairdealfrank,
My point is that IAG can give assurances about lhr dub for Ei but they could cut it. You ask why would they? If the same number of passengers can be transported with less rotations spread equally across the day that better for the group. The shortage of slots would make 8 slots attractive as new long haul aircraft come on stream.

Iberia exited BCN LHR, and the 2 airlines consolidated their operations on the route... Granted Iberia were moving their focus to Madrid.

I'd Not like to see BA leaving dub lhr route but I'm simply saying that there is do much talk of securing the ei slots for Ireland, that there were never assurances sought about BA's rotations ex DUB to LHR...

[racedo]

Cool.
That helps your argument, how?
Without Ryanair 30%, they can convince others not to sell and suddenly we have our 50%.

Up to bidding company to persuade majority of shareholders to accept bid.

If they can't persuade then clearly bid was not sufficient in the first place.

Shareholders have always a price just up to a bidder to meet it.

[riptack]

"Yes, this deal very much benefits EI. Also looking forward to EI’s return to the Oneworld Alliance."

I'm not sure EI would join Oneworld if they were part of IAG. Vueling aren't in Oneworld are they?

[j636]

IAG said they would rejoin.

[Fairdealfrank]

Fairdealfrank,
My point is that IAG can give assurances about lhr dub for Ei but they could cut it. You ask why would they? If the same number of passengers can be transported with less rotations spread equally across the day that better for the group. The shortage of slots would make 8 slots attractive as new long haul aircraft come on stream.


With the takeover and closing of BD by IAG, there is no shortage of slots at LHR for BA , so let‘s knock that particular bit of misinformation on the head.

Business travel requires frequency, so it is unlikely except in the circumstance outlined earlier (a BA and an EI flight leaving at the same time or in close proximity).


Iberia exited BCN LHR, and the 2 airlines consolidated their operations on the route... Granted Iberia were moving their focus to Madrid.


But BA and IB still on LHR-MAD.


I'd Not like to see BA leaving dub lhr route but I'm simply saying that there is do much talk of securing the ei slots for Ireland, that there were never assurances sought about BA's rotations ex DUB to LHR...


Because it's not an issue. If LHR-DUB was a loss maker, BA would not have replaced BD on the route. Check it out: the loss-making BD routes were soon scrapped.


I'm not sure EI would join Oneworld if they were part of IAG. Vueling aren't in Oneworld are they?


But BA and IB are. With all that potential connecting traffic, it would be very silly for EI not to rejoin Oneworld.

EI and VY are hardly the same!

[EI-BUD]

With the takeover and closing of BD by IAG, there is no shortage of slots at LHR for BA , so let‘s knock that particular bit of misinformation on the head.


Fairdealfrank,
I don't think it is misinformation, but thanks. So if BA want to launch a new route where do the slots come from, this statement would suggest that there are slots available? They clearly are using all slots at the moment?


My view is not any less valid than yours. With both airlines being part of the same organisation, my view is that it is completely plausible as it was between 1991 and 2012, that EI was the BA feeder ex Dublin, and BA not serving the route. Fewer flights with larger aircraft is completely workable, i.e. 321's across say 17/18 services offering the same capacity apart from freeing up slots (which you say they are not short of if required), is lower cost and more efficient way of using resources. Couple that with BA not having a base in Dublin could make the business case stronger. This is a scenario that I see as realistic, though I hope it is not.


But BA and IB still on LHR-MAD.


Yes this is correct, but I was citing BCN as an example of where BA have moved to an exclusing position. I think BA would have a far greater interesting in being part of LHR MAD in order to access a market that they do not currently serve as comprehensively as IB, i.e. south America. BA service to Dublin will aim to feed passengers to the US as almost all of the destinations are duplicates and as I said earlier, when BA vacated ROI, EI filled the space excellently codeshares in place via London.


Because it's not an issue. If LHR-DUB was a loss maker, BA would not have replaced BD on the route. Check it out: the loss-making BD routes were soon scrapped.


I am not suggesting for a second that DUB LHR is a loss maker for BA, I am simply expressing that efficiencies to be achieved by consolidating their position, less flights, bigger aircraft , i.e. 321s rather than 319s and broadly gain the same capacity still at very regular frequencies.


In a position where IAG owns both carriers, there certainly are economies to be achieves, and equally on BHD LHR where loads a far from high, often only in the 60%'s, there is case that EI could be done without or BA for that matter, doesn't mean that either carriers are losing money. There is a commercial logic in rationalising the operation, as has been the case on BCN LHR....




PS DONT KNOW WHY THE QUOTATION BOX NOT WORKING!

[Logohu]

With the takeover and closing of BD by IAG, there is no shortage of slots at LHR for BA , so let‘s knock that particular bit of misinformation on the head.

Of course it's about the LHR slots. This is IAG setting itself up in anticipation of a "NO" decision on LHR R3. If or when that happens there is no way IAG is going to continue running 21 plus flights a day on LHR-DUB ad infinitum.

At some point in the future at least some of those BA operated LHR-DUB slots will be quietly reallocated to other routes, with perhaps larger aircraft operating the remaining dozen or more frequencies. IAG may not be admitting that now until the deal is all done and dusted, and it may not happen for another five or ten years, but it will happen...

All the current media hype is about growing DUB as a North Atlantic hub for IAG with connections from all over the UK, new routes, more jobs etc etc. But slots at LHR, and the future potential of those 8 or so pairs of BA operated slots, are very much in IAG's sights as well.

[EI-A330-300]

I'm sure part is about slots but I am also sure WW realizes that people don't want to fly via LHR like they did 10 years ago. Something a new runway won't change and he will have to deal with. Not sure people from Ireland will fly via LHR to fly east either. BA drop their 8 daily when required but suspect a few other frequencies will be up the peaking order.

I believe RY3 will be given the go ahead, if the Tories are about the "economy" they will clear it. I'm sure LGW will manage to fill their new runway with bucket and spade operators but we know major players in the market won't fly from there runway or not.

[ia350]

With this deal looking extremely likely now , will the A350s
Still arrive when due ?

And would the fleet grow to about 60 in years to come ?

[EI-A330-300]

350's contracts were signed last year and planned for 2018-2020 provided Airbus make them on time.

[riptack]

EI and VY are hardly the same!

EI short haul product is very similar to VY - pay on board food, baggage fees, seat selection fees etc. Only difference is VY have more bases and possibly a lower cost base.

[renodnol]

When Little Red ceases its flights to Edinburgh and Aberdeen, the only domestic flights at T2 will be Aer Lingus to Belfast. Is it likely that BA will take over these flights and transfer the slots (under the agreement with the Irish Government, these slots need only be retained for an Irish route, not a specific one) to itself at T5, compensating by transferring 3 Dublin flights to Aer Lingus at T2?

[johnrizzo2000]

Any ideas how the extra DUB-JFK is selling? I'd expect the early departure from Dublin is popular, but the return will probably struggle!

With the aircraft in Dublin from its arrival at 23.40 until departure the next morning, I wonder would EI consider having the aircraft sit in JFK for a few hours, and have the departure around 19.00? That would stagger the JFK-DUB flights to being at 17.30, approx 19.00 and 21.30?

[Noxegon]

I love having the option of a daytime return from JFK and would take that every time over an overnight.

[Fairdealfrank]

Fairdealfrank,
I don't think it is misinformation, but thanks. So if BA want to launch a new route where do the slots come from, this statement would suggest that there are slots available? They clearly are using all slots at the moment?

Despite BD’s Heathrow slots being asset stripped by the LH group (14% of LHR slots reduced to 8%), the amount of slots inherited by BA should not be underestimated.

This "windfall" came before several new longhaul aircraft are delivered, so several point-to-point shorthaul holiday routes from LHR have been introduced in the interim. Some may call them slot sitters (couldn't possibly comment on this), and when those slots are needed for longhaul, these routes may shift to LGW/LCY.

Moreover, come the end of September, BA get another 9 slot pairs from VS when they close LHR-EDI and LHR-ABZ.



My view is not any less valid than yours.


No, it isn’t!


With both airlines being part of the same organisation, my view is that it is completely plausible as it was between 1991 and 2012, that EI was the BA feeder ex Dublin, and BA not serving the route. Fewer flights with larger aircraft is completely workable, i.e. 321's across say 17/18 services offering the same capacity apart from freeing up slots (which you say they are not short of if required), is lower cost and more efficient way of using resources. Couple that with BA not having a base in Dublin could make the business case stronger. This is a scenario that I see as realistic, though I hope it is not.

Thick shorthaul trunk routes need frequency, apart from anything else, business pax demand it. So apart from the circumstances outlined before (BA and EI flights leaving at the same time), most BA and EI on LHR-DUB would probably remain.

Maybe one carrier would do all the flights with the other’s flight numbers on as well, but this isn’t the case on LHR-MAD where both BA and IB are on the route.


Yes this is correct, but I was citing BCN as an example of where BA have moved to an exclusing position. I think BA would have a far greater interesting in being part of LHR MAD in order to access a market that they do not currently serve as comprehensively as IB, i.e. south America. BA service to Dublin will aim to feed passengers to the US as almost all of the destinations are duplicates and as I said earlier, when BA vacated ROI, EI filled the space excellently codeshares in place via London.

I am not suggesting for a second that DUB LHR is a loss maker for BA, I am simply expressing that efficiencies to be achieved by consolidating their position, less flights, bigger aircraft , i.e. 321s rather than 319s and broadly gain the same capacity still at very regular frequencies.

In a position where IAG owns both carriers, there certainly are economies to be achieves, and equally on BHD LHR where loads a far from high, often only in the 60%'s, there is case that EI could be done without or BA for that matter, doesn't mean that either carriers are losing money. There is a commercial logic in rationalising the operation, as has been the case on BCN LHR....


Good points, but does it matter how it's done? No other carrier would want to do the route, so surrendering slots on LHR-DUB to a third (non-IAG) carrier wouldn't be an issue.

Anyone notice how quiet VS has been about this?!





Of course it's about the LHR slots. This is IAG setting itself up in anticipation of a "NO" decision on LHR R3. If or when that happens there is no way IAG is going to continue running 21 plus flights a day on LHR-DUB ad infinitum.


It’s about slots in one respect only: IAG wouldn’t want someone else to grab the EI LHR slots. For the foreseeable, the slots remain allocated on LHR-DUB, LHR-ORK and LHR-SNN, it’s part of the agreement with the Irish government. In the longer term, who knows?

EI short haul product is very similar to VY - pay on board food, baggage fees, seat selection fees etc. Only difference is VY have more bases and possibly a lower cost base.


True, but EI is also more like the former BD:
(1) mostly a shorthaul carrier but also some longhaul routes;
(2) pay on board for various things on shorthaul, but not on longhaul;
(3) separate regional section separate from mainline.



When Little Red ceases its flights to Edinburgh and Aberdeen, the only domestic flights at T2 will be Aer Lingus to Belfast. Is it likely that BA will take over these flights and transfer the slots (under the agreement with the Irish Government, these slots need only be retained for an Irish route, not a specific one) to itself at T5, compensating by transferring 3 Dublin flights to Aer Lingus at T2?


EI’s LHR-BHD are UK domestic, not a UK-(Republic of) Ireland route. Why would it be any concern of the Irish government?

Think EI would move to LHR-5 if part of IAG, it would be stupid not to, especially as the common travel area arrivals section is now established there.

[MarkD]

EI’s LHR-BHD are UK domestic, not a UK-(Republic of) Ireland route. Why would it be any concern of the Irish government? Um... try this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Northern_Ireland). :D :D

I'm already seeing moaning from FB friends in the UK about some BA routes not being in 5, can't imagine they would be thrilled to have even more do so in order for Team Green to move in!

[Omnipresent]

I think EI will retain at least some form of presence in T2 for now. They have just spent a lot of money on a lounge there. A lot of flights would have to be moved out of T5 to accommodate EI's entire LHR operation. Also, EI being in T2 serves IAG's interest to an extent as it means they can easily keep tabs on what's going on there, just as BA used to at T3 when it had one route there (MIA).

[EI-A330-300]

IAG may help EI have a stab at going back east with China, Japan and India suggested with China most likely first.

IAG boss Willie Walsh wants expanded Aer Lingus to target Asian destinations - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/iag-boss-willie-walsh-wants-expanded-aer-lingus-to-target-asian-destinations-31268685.html)

[OltonPete]

Winter 2015/6

Are Aer Lingus Regional intending to operate the BHX - SNN route this winter from the Dublin base? The BHX Cork timings are showing 20.40 in, 21.05 out compared to later this month 16.30 in 21.05 out with Shannon operating in between.

Aer Lingus mainline have added a 5th BHX - DUB rotation on Thursday's and Friday's similar to last winter but still no sign of the 6th as indicated in the press.

Pete

[Sober Lark]

Re: IAG


Confirmation that the 'unmentionable one' is almost out of the equation.

[AerRyan]

Winter 2015/6

Are Aer Lingus Regional intending to operate the BHX - SNN route this winter from the Dublin base? The BHX Cork timings are showing 20.40 in, 21.05 out compared to later this month 16.30 in 21.05 out with Shannon operating in between.

Aer Lingus mainline have added a 5th BHX - DUB rotation on Thursday's and Friday's similar to last winter but still no sign of the 6th as indicated in the press.

Pete
AFAIK Aer Lingus are currently finalising their timetable for winter 2015/16 atm. I've noticed a few small changes lately.

[j636]

Interesting to note that they hope to continue to work with EI in IAG and felt there was willinginess from IAG!

[owenc]

Any ideas how the extra DUB-JFK is selling? I'd expect the early departure from Dublin is popular, but the return will probably struggle!

With the aircraft in Dublin from its arrival at 23.40 until departure the next morning, I wonder would EI consider having the aircraft sit in JFK for a few hours, and have the departure around 19.00? That would stagger the JFK-DUB flights to being at 17.30, approx 19.00 and 21.30?

Absolutely no! There are enough flights from the New York metropolitan area that leave at many different times:

10:10pm Delta
6:45pm American
9:00pm Aer Lingus
5:30pm Aer Lingus
7:00pm United
10:15pm United

6 flights isn't enough!? There are no other dayflights to Ireland, if you want a dayflight you need to backtrack over to Heathrow. The dayflight is also the latest dayflight so it is at a reasonable time, plenty of time for connections and no need to get up at 4am! Definitely rooting for this dayflight, i'm booked on it this summer and so happy to be! I think you and others can cope with one 757 flight!! Many people find it incredibly hard to fly at night and jump forward in time.

[AerRyan]

I know lots of people praising the day return flight. The 7:20 flight isnt even the point being talked about, its the day flight to DUB.

[owenc]

I love having the option of a daytime return from JFK and would take that every time over an overnight.

Exactly. What is the problem with one 757. Frigging hell.

[owenc]

I know lots of people praising the day return flight. The 7:20 flight isnt even the point being talked about, its the day flight to DUB.

Its great isn't it. It actually leaves at a good time and doesn't get in too late.

[AerRyan]

Exactly. What is the problem with one single tiny 757. Frigging hell.

Aer Lingus had to test the market first.
Maybe next year they may use an A330 or B767?

[owenc]

I don't know if there is demand for that. But I hope they make it year round and keep it.

[AerRyan]

I don't know if there is demand for that. But I hope they make it year round and keep it.

Scheduling is probably the main problem there. Where do you get the aircraft.

An Omni Air B762 was hired in to Shannon for 12 weeks and the 757 there was moved to Dublin. The B762 is expensive to run and therefore probably wouldn't make much of a profit outside of May/June/July/August/September.

[owenc]

We will just have to wait and see but it angers me when folk whine about one 757 making a dayflight when there are 6 night flights. Give me a break

[johnrizzo2000]

The daytime EI102 is great for passengers, as has been pointed out, it's easier with jetlag etc. The 757 is also the perfect aircraft in terms of capacity!

However, I wouldn't be surprised if EI change it to an evening departure ex JFK, as they'll gain connecting passengers travelling JFK-DUB-Europe! With the early departure, they're limited to just JFK-DUB traffic

[Hangar6]

98% full westbound first flight and 84% eastbound not bad, given zero connecting traffic , EWR/NYC now has 7 daily Dublin flights and all are doing well.

[AerRyan]

One of the main points of the flight is that the eastbound is not a red eye flight, I doubt they will change that.

[Cyrano]

However, I wouldn't be surprised if EI change it to an evening departure ex JFK, as they'll gain connecting passengers travelling JFK-DUB-Europe! With the early departure, they're limited to just JFK-DUB traffic

:ugh:

Er... John, aren't you missing the point pretty comprehensively here?

EI already have two evening departures ex JFK which enable them to... gain connecting passengers travelling JFK-DUB-Europe! Who'd have thought it? :hmm:

They are using a dedicated 757 for EI 103/102 so in principle could schedule it at any time they wanted, and they have clearly chosen to go for a daytime option to provide time-of-day choice for point-to-point passengers. Like some of the other posters here, I would be happy to choose a flight from JFK to DUB that did not (to paraphrase 'Macbeth') provoke the desire to sleep and take away the ability to do so.

[owenc]

I'ce already pointed out the six other flights that operate from 5:30 to 10:15..

[Epsomdog]

Councillors still unhappy with Aer Lingus Boston move | The Clare Herald (http://clareherald.com/2015/06/councillors-still-unhappy-with-aer-lingus-boston-move-94103/)

They'd never make any money!

[Epsomdog]

Virgin Atlantic Seeks Protection If IAG Buys Aer Lingus*|*AviationBrief ? Your Daily Aviation Intelligence Brief (http://www.aviationbrief.com/?p=21176)

Perhaps they'd like another airline to run a shorthaul feeder service DUB/LHR for them! EI have two spare a/c come September :)

[AerRyan]

Councillors still unhappy with Aer Lingus Boston move | The Clare Herald (http://clareherald.com/2015/06/councillors-still-unhappy-with-aer-lingus-boston-move-94103/)

They'd never make any money!

As a supporter for Shannon, what they are saying now is not representative of my views or the views of the airport management. Aer Lingus have given a very good reason, Irish crew are not licenced on an American owned Omni Boeing 767.

[Epsomdog]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cma-confirms-requirement-for-ryanair-to-reduce-aer-lingus-shareholding

[AerRyan]

No surprise really, I doubted it would be overturned.

So ryanair have to offload it. I cant see anyone buying it except IAG, so Its a pretty guaranteed deal at this stage. After they get the RYR shares, they wont be far off a compulsory buy?

[EI-A330-300]

IAG could be waiting until 2016, Ryanair have hinted they may wait until the case is wrapped up in Europe before deciding to sell or not. Guess the board will make the final decision.

[racedo]

IAG could be waiting until 2016, Ryanair have hinted they may wait until the case is wrapped up in Europe before deciding to sell or not. Guess the board will make the final decision.

If goes to Europe then more like 2017 or 2018.

[Sober Lark]

Didn't think he looked too happy.


http://www.google.fr/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/11/WALSH_AND_O_LEARY.jpg&sa=X&ved=0CAkQ8wdqFQoTCIrP2rGKiMYCFco4FAodI1YAhA&usg=AFQjCNG6YsSHsPzxAtZoH0nqKQ_nsvm1cA

[vctenderness]

Ant and Dec:}

[Una Due Tfc]

Aer Lingus praised for treatment of Berkeley families (http://utv.ie/News/2015/06/18/Aer-Lingus-praised-for-treatment-of-Berkeley-families-39360)

No words necessary

[EI-A330-300]

IAG have told the EU that competitors such as Virgin can continue to use IRL-LHR flights to put competition concers from the EU to bed. So far BA have not offered slots but they may be required to. Should know by 15 July.

The slots if required will be telling of IAG commitment!

[Epsomdog]

IAG have told the EU that competitors such as Virgin can continue to use IRL-LHR flights to put competition concers from the EU to bed. So far BA have not offered slots but they may be required to. Should know by 15 July.

The slots if required will be telling of IAG commitment!

Can't see a huge demand for LHR/DUB slots, Virgin probably won't touch them, given they're recent shorthaul experience!

Ryanair? Well they may well want to take them on as a loss leader, just to needle Aer Lingus after they've sold the shares!

[Epsomdog]

If goes to Europe then more like 2017 or 2018.

IAG have set a deadline of 16th July. Sell by then or the deal's off!

Ryanair are in a catch 22 situation, I think. Don't sell, and they solidify the CMC case against them.

Can MOL carry the support of the shareholders in this matter? There's an awful lot of money tied up here!

[Jack1985]

Can MOL carry the support of the shareholders in this matter? There's an awful lot of money tied up here!

He hasn't had the support of shareholders for EI, they wan't their money back and Willy knows this, they have been unhappy at how much MOL flushed down the toilet in every failed attempt he has had to get his hands on EI. It's been a shadow on his tenure at FR any shareholder will tell you that.

[racedo]

IAG have set a deadline of 16th July. Sell by then or the deal's off!

Doubtful

IAG knows its got a good deal just may have to pay a bit more.

If goes to court it will stay there for a couple of years.

[racedo]

He hasn't had the support of shareholders for EI, they wan't their money back and Willy knows this, they have been unhappy at how much MOL flushed down the toilet in every failed attempt he has had to get his hands on EI. It's been a shadow on his tenure at FR any shareholder will tell you that.

Right and the Billions that they have handed to Shareholders get ignored.

Ryanair have paid shareholders many multiples of what was paid for Aer Lingus and Share Price is well above what is was when original bid went in.

Doubtful shareholders care as they require shares to go up in value and dividends.

[Hangar6]

Well anything that ups the offer suits me so I hope MOL plays Willie a good
Game of poker, 255 is ok but FR paid 257 on average plus all those legal fees
So expect further developments on this one now 265 should make us all happy:ok:

[j636]

Lets say FR decided to wait and IAG don't increase the offer, what are the chances of a JV between EI and IAG/AA in the meantime?

[Epsomdog]

Doubtful

IAG knows its got a good deal just may have to pay a bit more.

If goes to court it will stay there for a couple of years.

Not Doubtfull. "FACT" the date's in the offer doc!

Courts and lawyers have nothing to do with it. If this offer collapses so does the share price. This is probably the best way to get the money back, in the short term.

I can't see the offer being there in two or three years. The aviation climate will be different by then and we may well have a decision on RWY3 at LHR.

IAG have set up the funding for the takeover, Willie has said the price is 2:50 +5 and no more. I'm not sure I'd call his bluff when I stand to loose so much!

[racedo]

Not Doubtfull. "FACT" the date's in the offer doc!

Courts and lawyers have nothing to do with it. If this offer collapses so does the share price. This is probably the best way to get the money back, in the short term.

I can't see the offer being there in two or three years. The aviation climate will be different by then and we may well have a decision on RWY3 at LHR.

IAG have set up the funding for the takeover, Willie has said the price is 2:50 +5 and no more. I'm not sure I'd call his bluff when I stand to loose so much!

You ever met someone who says its final offer but then wants to negotiate if losing the deal.

IAG want EI and will have a point where its no more, doubt whether they are at that level yet.

This is only the 1st offer put to shareholders.

[Epsomdog]

EU gives approval for IAG-Aer Lingus deal: sources - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/0710/713833-ryanair-iag-bid/)

Misleading title to the Link, however the article is worth a read

[BFS watcher]

EI diversions piling into BFS, what has gone wrong in dublin

[EI-A330-300]

Runway change followed by a bird strike soon after. Noting come in a for a few mins.

[airbourne]

EU approval of IAG offer for Aer Lingus due next week - sources (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/eu-approval-of-iag-offer-for-aer-lingus-due-next-week-sources-1.2280218)

Could the last one to leave the building turn off the lights!!!

By the by, if I was a pedantic bastard I would be complaining about the sloppy lazy lifted from a press release story. But also with Ryanair's 300+ aircraft you think someone from the Irish Times could get an up to date picture!!!! :ugh::ugh:

[mik3bravo]

Just did price check on LCY-DUB return 4-6 Sep.
Get this, on BA website it comes to £178. On Aer Lingus website it states (operated by BA CityFlyer) and for same flight it's just shy of £300!!!

Aer Lingus rip-off pricing never changes!

Then double checked what they'd be on Skyscanner and yep, rip-off price is there too.

[Jamie2k9]

Just did price check on LCY-DUB return 4-6 Sep.
Get this, on BA website it comes to £178. On Aer Lingus website it states (operated by BA CityFlyer) and for same flight it's just shy of £300!!!

Aer Lingus rip-off pricing never changes!

Then double checked what they'd be on Skyscanner and yep, rip-off price is there too.

1 - They only loaded flights recently, take time for prices to settle down.
2 - It's a code share (for now) you will never get the same pricing, they want you to fly with EI over BA.
3 - Why would you try book with EI?

[mik3bravo]

My company stopped supporting AL cause their prices were ridiculously costly compared to likes of BA and CityJet. I've stopped flying AL months ago. BA cityflyer is rammed every Friday 6pm LCY-DUB.

AL have abandoned Southend after all their fanfare marketing spin they packed up tjeir tents and moved on. Is it any wonder the pax fly with competitors to AL.

[Jamie2k9]

My company stopped supporting AL cause their prices were ridiculously costly compared to likes of BA and CityJet. I've stopped flying AL months ago. BA cityflyer is rammed every Friday 6pm LCY-DUB.

AL have abandoned Southend after all their fanfare marketing spin they packed up tjeir tents and moved on. Is it any wonder the pax fly with competitors to AL.

Pricing is driven by demand so clearly planes are been filled and I expect all carriers on Fridays are rammed...

As for SEN, EI did not abandon it as they have no commercial say in what happened. Can't see the type of passengers SEN attracted moving to LCY/LHR anyway.

[Hangar6]

Just for the record EI have never and have no plans to operate this route

[mik3bravo]

AL regional operated by Stobart. SEN to DUB is no longer.

[EI-BUD]

The media reports about EU clearance for IAG Aer Lingus takeover include some concessions on slots in London, reports today in the media point to Gatwick slots potentially,which seemed surprising. I wonder if it is LGW will the slots surrendered come from BA, EI or a combination. Would be slightly concerned for BHD and NOC routes by EI if the slots come from EI . I would imagine NOC may be sensitive issue.

Surely any slots surrendered would benefit those airlines with the gravest concerns e.g. VS?