Aer Lingus - 6

[Jamie2k9]

They are developing a new app.

Instead of revamping the website EI need to sort out there problems at terminal 2. Spend 55 minutes queuing at bang drop this afternoon and security was fairly busy as well. Have took a good few EI flights over the last year and the longest when we have bags was 20-25 minute wait. They need to sort it out or split passengers who check in online and ones who don't. If its this long now I can't think how long I will be waiting in July.

[vkid]

It beyond me why it defaults to the UK site from an irish ip address. Can't be that hard to sort out..

[Aerlingus231]

It's based on your browsers settings, make sure you've got it set to Ireland not the UK...

[vkid]

Its the only website that does that and i'm not the only one with the same issue..,most other airlines load an irish site in the same browser with the same settings....according to this thread its down to cookies

Aer Lingus website default is Great Britain - boards.ie (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056870748)

Its dumb either way

[EI-A330-300]

Its you internet settings so delete them and reset them, nothing to do with Aer Lingus. It may also be this way because when people buy new computers they don't take much care when setting it up and allow the system to be based on the US or UK versions and don't pick the Irish one.

It works correctly for 99% of people so change your settings if you can or get someone else to do it.

[vkid]

If every other website can figure out I'm in Ireland, this should too.,,its not rocket science to do. (BA, SAS are two examples that work fine with my current settings)
A customer shouldnt have to go through a rigmarole to get their country of origin. The" its you, not aer lingus" line doesn't quite cut it.

[Cian]

The SAS website is horrendously poor otherwise, though. Better to have a website that works than obsess over the three people who are unable to select "Dublin" from the list - and remembering that the ORK crew would probably prefer to have anywhere but that selected by default!

[MCDU2]

Ah the irony. Clearing your cookies and updating your region settings would have taken far less time than the 3 rants posted above.

[Shamrock350]

It used to send me to the US site whenever I logged on but now sets it correctly, I didn't do anything it just seemed to sort itself. The site is looking a lot better recently and certainly more professional, the quality of images they had been using up until a few months ago were terrible and looked like someone just got the first image of a beach they could find from an internet search. Still a few amateur looking areas of the site but it's moving in the right direction and I've never had a problem with its functionality.

I don't have a problem with the mobile app either, I use it regularly for checking in and getting my boarding pass. The booking pages are a bit clumsy and it's certainly nowhere near as good as the easyJet or Swiss apps which are brilliant but it gets the job done...most of the time.

Regarding the long queues at T2 in the mornings, it's clear this is something they intend to adress and the evening before bag drop is a good idea, doubt it will have a huge impact but it's a start and I believe it was suggested by staff.

[Hangar6]

EIR passengers must have added good numbers at peak time going to be a hectic morning wave once
EY go to a 777
AA to JFK
Larger DL aircraft
Peak extras to Usa
Plus all the flights being near full

Who would have thought T2 would get so busy so quickly

[vkid]

"Clearing your cookies and updating your region settings would have taken far less time than the 3 rants posted above."

have cleared all browsing data, cookies history etc and it still goes to the Uk site. 2 lines in each post hardly constitutes a rant

[EI-A330-300]

Here is what you do.

Tools-Internet Options-Then delete the website that's set as your homepage as default. (right click and delete)

Then type www.google.ie (http://www.google.ie)

Then delete cookies, close you browser and reopen again.

I just did it but used google.co.uk and the UK site opened.

If you have google.com instead of .ie it will go to the UK site.

[vkid]

ah lads, would ye get real. Everything is set as it should be, checked and rechecked...All 3 browsers (Chrome, FF and IE) on my pc and laptop are checked and rechecked..my homepage is google.ie on all of them.. I'm not dumb

if ye realy think someone should have to go through all this to get to their region, when other sites do it automatically, then its all the one.

[EI-A330-300]

Well you need to bring it to a PC shop and let them do it as I can get any country open with a Irish ip by changing the settings.

[racedo]

Hopefully the unions and Aer Lingus will accept the LRC's recommendations and wrap this up once and for all:

?110m recommended for Aer Lingus pension scheme - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0524/452478-aer-lingus-pension/)

Cash out of Aer Lingus of €110 million
Money to employees between now and 2016 called "Stabilisation"
10% contribution to new pension scheme

Frankly this is a poor deal for Aer Lingus as €110 million is direct cash gone for good from the business with not a single thing in return.
Stabilisation payment also will be a sizeable chunk added onto to costs up to 2016.
The 10% of salary pension contribution means you have just saddled the company with massive increase in costs every year going forward.

This is supposed to be a "Good" deal for the company ? What are they getting in return......
What is a bad deal ?

[Aerlingus231]

I'm guessing a strike that costs them more than 110m and left them in the same place at the end would be a bad deal no?

[Hangar6]

Agreed its a reasonably good deal IF that really is the end of it once and for all, although Pilots pension separate I believe

Ita all about removing uncertainty and at the same being reasonable to employees , sort of a decent way of running a business.......and making money at the same time .:O

[ayroplain]

sort of a decent way of running a business
Lovely people - those running EI, LOL.

Now, let's see if the DAA will come up with the other €640M, ROFL.

[Hangar6]

Lol okay so the sunny morning got to me
Pension scheme deficits are a mystery to me , I use the post office and
The back of my wardrobe but hopefully this
May allow the scheme managers to but a new spreadsheet
And calculus and manage the funds better or at least differently

I have not totally given up on a return on my contributions in 14 years time
Now better cut the grass and do normal things

Racedo you have a good day too ,

[racedo]

Agreed its a reasonably good deal IF that really is the end of it once and for all, although Pilots pension separate I believe


This won't be the end of it as that was supposed to be the €100 M plus given on floatation plus the free shares to employees etc etc.

In total Aer Lingus has given €100M to pension scheme on floatation as a final one off gesture, paid €30 M to Irish taxation authorities for redundancy screwup, now given €110M to pension fund (again) as a final one off gesture, will pay employees a "stabilisation" figure and at a guess we talking circa €15-20 million plus increasing contributions to 10% for everyone which will probably add €40 million to the cost base. Rougly €300 million of cash out for nothing in return.

Kinda hard to run an airline when there is a hand perpetually out for more and getting it.

And enjoy the weekend too :ok:

[mart901]

Especially when you consider their biggest rival is based in DUB

[Hangar6]

Nice one if it happens:)

[eick320]

Is that based on rumour or fact ?

[Shamrock350]

It's from The Independent, UK Competition Commission may tell Ryanair to sell half their stake in Aer Lingus.

Ryanair's dream to be grounded: Watchdog poised to order Michael O'Leary to halve carrier's stake in Aer Lingus - Business News - Business - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ryanairs-dream-to-be-grounded-watchdog-poised-to-order-michael-oleary-to-halve-carriers-stake-in-aer-lingus-8632271.html)

The final report is due in July.

[Sober Lark]

Ryanair have been successfully swimming against the current since they started. Look where they are today.

Looking at the from the safety of the river bank their journey certainly seems rougher than going with the flow but one can't argue with the success they are having especially when you realise the other competitors are actually being swept downstream and don't seem to appreciate the finish line is actually behind them, in the other direction.

[maggot738]

Hanger 6, it may not be the dream or victory you think it will be if MOL is forced to sell his shareholding in EI. MOL is a very astute business man. If he can't buy EI then he may just decide to flood the market on EI routes and virtually run EI into the ground. If that we're to happen then I'm quite sure the Irish government would go cap in hand begging for FR to buy what remained of EI. Food for thought?

Maggot

[racedo]

IAG to buy it and use Dublin as a stopover to clear customs and immigration for some of their US flights and as a stopover on way back to drop off and pick up. BA strength is as a predominantely a UK-US carrier.

IAG then use the additional slots they have to further develop their route network to the east.

[WHBM]

IAG to buy it and use Dublin as a stopover to clear customs and immigration for some of their US flights and as a stopover on way back to drop off and pick up. BA strength is as a predominantely a UK-US carrier.

IAG then use the additional slots they have to further develop their route network to the east.
The US customs/immigration preclearance is entirely subject to the whim of the US government. The facility at Shannon has recently had its longstanding afternoon hours curtailed, under the pretext of "saving government money" but actually due to lobbying in Washington by US carriers who saw the success of the BA London City to JFK service using this, which they had no equivalent service for, so their Washington contacts came up with a way to spike the service.

If IAG developed a big advantage using this service, then it may well miraculously just disappear.

[racedo]

If IAG developed a big advantage using this service, then it may well miraculously just disappear.

IAG would care little as the would already have the slots and then just use EI to feed LHR-US traffic with a minimum number of flights from Dub / SNN.

[Skipness One Echo]

IAG to buy it and use Dublin as a stopover to clear customs and immigration for some of their US flights and as a stopover on way back to drop off and pick up. BA strength is as a predominantely a UK-US carrier.

IAG then use the additional slots they have to further develop their route network to the east.
Ohhhhhhhh that's genius. "Look chaps, we've had enough of flying from LHR to the US direct, we've had a whizz bang idea of using Dublin. In Ireland. Then we can lose even more flying East where we're being killed by the loss of our QANTAS JV, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad and Thai. Spaffing idea eh?"

Even for you racedo, that's off the wall....

[curser]

Mirrored my thoughts Skipness, fr take over a sure thing...wrong, share price will dive without mol..... wrong, EI pension deal a poor deal... Market reaction?... wrong. You really can't get anything right can you? I realise of course you have your agenda but as truth and Mol are strange bed fellows so reality and old racedo have long since parted company.
To be fair your posts have given me pause for thought in years gone by, a kind of 'what if the little fella's right? ' but you've been so wrong for so long now... Best thing you can do is change your handle, cos baby this ones lost all credibility on this thread. Now you have yourself a really super day racedo... got notin but love for you.

[Aerlingus231]

Looks like the EI share price has risen sharply on the news that Ryanair will be forced to sell their stake, currently trading at €1.63!!! :D:eek:

Highest Share price since September 2008, co-incidentally just before the second Ryanair takeover bid... Looks like Ryanair's stake really has been keeping the share price artificially low...

Investor Relations - Share price information - Corporate Aer Lingus (http://corporate.aerlingus.com/investorrelations/sharepriceinformation/index.html)

[racedo]

Ohhhhhhhh that's genius. "Look chaps, we've had enough of flying from LHR to the US direct, we've had a whizz bang idea of using Dublin. In Ireland. Then we can lose even more flying East where we're being killed by the loss of our QANTAS JV, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad and Thai. Spaffing idea eh?"

Even for you racedo, that's off the wall....

Never suggested they would do it to many flights but as requirement to buy Irish Govt shareholding they will be required to use LHR-DUB slots then stop off in Dub kills 2 birds with maintaining some semblance of a T/A Link.

[dublinaviator]

Aer Lingus shares jump 7.7% as proposals to fix pension deficit prove less onerous - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Mon, May 27, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-shares-jump-7-7-as-proposals-to-fix-pension-deficit-prove-less-onerous-1.1407688)

Shares in Aer Lingus jump nearly 8pc - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/shares-in-aer-lingus-jump-nearly-8pc-29299221.html)

Ryanair may have to sell half of its Aer Lingus stake - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-may-have-to-sell-half-of-its-aer-lingus-stake-29298305.html)

[ATNotts]

How can the UK competition commission force a foreign (Irish owned) business to do anything?

Surely that is what the European bodies, or the Irish competition watchdog is there for.

Is this a case of the UK (again) forgetting that the Irish Republic is neither part of the UK, nor an overseas colony?

[j636]

How can the UK competition commission force a foreign (Irish owned) business to do anything?

Surely that is what the European bodies, or the Irish competition watchdog is there for.

Is this a case of the UK (again) forgetting that the Irish Republic is neither part of the UK, nor an overseas colony?

They can't but they can stop Ryanair from operating in the UK.

[Jamie2k9]

Aer Lingus in action over Ryanair takeover bid - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0527/452988-ryanair-aer-lingus/)

[racedo]

They can't but they can stop Ryanair from operating in the UK.

Despite the wishes and desires of more than a few on here they could not do that as that would be contrary to EU law.

[Lord Lardy]

They can't but they can stop Ryanair from operating in the UK.

No I don't believe Ryanair can be stopped from operating in the UK. My limited understanding of their authority however is that they can fine Ryanair for every passenger they carry in the UK. This of course is post all the legal wranglings and appeals. I could be wrong on this but I think that this is the procedure they use to enforce their ruling. I wouldn't anticipate it going that far though. The appeals process could take up to a couple of years with the law firms dragging it out for as long as possible and licking their lips.

Ultimately I see Ryanair selling their share before an appeals process runs its course should an investor make a satisfactory offer for part or all of their shareholding. When will then happen is a huge fanfare with the usual rhetoric of Aer Lingus as an airline is doomed etc etc will take place for a few days. After that the event will be forgotten and life will carry on as normal for both airlines.

[VanBosh]

Anyone know what day this week Aer sling us are announcing their new LH routes etc?

Thanks

[Shamrock350]

New routes might be pushing it, the 757 plan still needs to be officially announced and it's believed new routes might happen with that but with EI you never really know until the wheels lift off the runway on the inaugural flight!

Would like to know if there's an announcement this week though.

[EI-A330-300]

New routes might be pushing it, the 757 plan still needs to be officially announced and it's believed new routes might happen with that but with EI you never really know until the wheels lift off the runway on the inaugural flight!

Would like to know if there's an announcement this week though.

Rumoured that both the B757 news and what the other capacity will do instead is to be announced.

[airbourne]

Lots of stories and stuff going around that SFO is going to be announced today/tomorrow.

[DollarBill]

@shamrock350: B757 lease from "early 2014" was announced by EI in the 2012 Full Year results presentation.

I think people are waiting to hear what EI plan to do with the A330 capacity that the B757 will free up......

[airbourne]

Aer Lingus Confirms Boeing 757 Deal to Boost Transatlantic Offering :: Routesonline (http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/195853/aer-lingus-confirms-boeing-757-deal-to-boost-transatlantic-offering/)

[dublinaviator]

Old news...

[EI-A330-300]

boards.ie - View Single Post - Can you bring a dog on the DART? (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84860729&postcount=13)

While I think you did make the post where you intended originally, you may want to check your clipboard http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Didn't even make that post, had planned to respond to it but didn't get around to it. What I meant to post was:

Aer Lingus board supports pension recommendation - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0531/453746-aer-lingus-pension/)

Clearly one shareholder not happy
Spineless Aer Lingus Board Roll Over Again And Again At Cost Of? (http://www.ryanair.com/ie/news/spineless-aer-lingus-board-roll-over-again-and-again-at-cost-of-600m-euro-and-rising)

[racedo]

Clearly one shareholder not happy
Spineless Aer Lingus Board Roll Over Again And Again At Cost Of? (http://www.ryanair.com/ie/news/spineless-aer-lingus-board-roll-over-again-and-again-at-cost-of-600m-euro-and-rising)

€600 Million....................crikey that was twice my estimate.

[Jamie2k9]

If they have such a problem with there fellow shareholders they why are they reluctant to sell their shares. PR machine in full swing....

[Aerlingus231]

I think I speak MOL pretty well, so allow me to translate for you guys.

"The management are going to avert a strike. I don't want this to happen, the strike should go ahead. The strike should be forced to go ahead so that Aer Lingus goes bankrupt. Aer Lingus going bankrupt would be great because then we'll be the only ones left and then I can charge everyone €2,000 for a ticket to get off this island and I'll be RICH!!!"

So yeh, that roughly sums up what he just said...:rolleyes:

[Jack1985]

No bias at all from Willie Walsh here. :yuk: Aer Lingus better off being owned by O'Leary, says Walsh - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-better-off-being-owned-by-oleary-says-walsh-29314956.html)

[ayroplain]

"The management are going to avert a strike. I don't want this to happen, the strike should go ahead. The strike should be forced to go ahead so that Aer Lingus goes bankrupt. Aer Lingus going bankrupt would be great because then we'll be the only ones left and then I can charge everyone €2,000 for a ticket to get off this island and I'll be RICH!!!"
Amazing what unabated hatred does to the mind. The only reason I'm replying to this is to inform the poster that MOL is already RICH!!!, LOL.

[Aerlingus231]

Amazing what unabated hatred does to the mind. The only reason I'm replying to this is to inform the poster that MOL is already RICH!!!, LOL.


I know he's rich, but he's always going to want more, and fair play to him for it, if he wasn't always out to get as much money as he could he'd be a pretty bad business person. We just have to keep this in mind with everything he says he's saying so that Ryanair benefit. He does, and always will, want what is best for Ryanair not Aer Lingus, so when he makes comments with regard to Aer Lingus you've always got to keep that in mind.

I don't hate him at all, I think he's done great things, I also think he's done some pretty awful things, but no one's perfect. I just make sure that when it comes to things he says about Aer Lingus, I remember that he's saying them from the point of view of how Ryanair can benefit the most.

[Sober Lark]

You mention O'Leary but what about shareholder expectations? Didn't they buy into it seven years ago based on the IPO prospectus? Who managed that one?

[Aerlingus231]

I think seeing as the share price jumped to a near 5 year (4 year, 9 months) high following the announcement, I'm guessing most share holders are going to be pretty happy about the development.

[MCDU2]

Poor old Willy is really getting it from all sides these days. Its gotten so bad that he now feels he has to jump into bed with MOL. The reality is you have to take everything that the man says with a grain of salt.

Iberia are p*ssing cash on a daily basis. The big airline alliances are coming at him from all sides at LHR and now his Irish customers are favouring flying East with the likes of Etihad and Emirates.

And then of course don't forget the history where he wasn't allowed to undertake a management buy out of AL and take it private himself and carve it up. He really is still quite bitter about this. Enough of my colleagues run into him on a regular basis when he is back home and you can guarantee he doesn't have anything nice to say about AL. That should be motivation enough that we must be doing alright!

[ayroplain]

LOL, I think the concept that Ireland must keep Aer Lingus in situ to keep Ryanair fares down is hilarious.

Like many, I can’t understand why the UK has taken this action and would like to know the real reason for it (we can all speculate, of course).

I would also ask why a few here appear to be happy with UK involvement (interference) in Irish aviation affairs especially when it has no conceivable relevance to its own flying public and neither the Irish nor European agencies agree with them.

I would further ask why some people believe that a foreign airline buying EI would be considered as better for the Irish flying public than a wholly Irish hugely successful and extremely well run airline in great financial health.

Much of the anti-Ryanair stuff that is posted here and elsewhere arises from the fact that their arrival on the scene (and MOL, in particular) sounded the death-knell for the old-style practice of running an airline for the benefit of unions and staff that precluded the vast majority of Irish people from being able to afford to fly. The huge and ongoing resistance to change at EI (forced on them by FR) has cost the airline millions in lost revenue due to strikes/threats to strike, the costs of redundancy awards, special payments, special “extra” payments et al. Not to mention the other millions wasted in fuel costs and ops for years forcing them to land at Shannon on T/A. The last thing an airline needs is involvement with Government, people with vested interests on the Board and intransigent unions.

For that reason, I'm out and, personally, would prefer that FR didn’t take over EI. The contamination risk for FR is too high, IMHO.

[Aerlingus231]

The reason we want the to remain seperate is because if they were one, then they'd have over 90% of the traffic to and from Ireland, they could charge what they liked. And to those that think "The Market" would come and save us, it simply wouldn't, NO ONE, competes against Ryanair, Aer Lingus are the only airline that have managed to do it.

We want two airlines serving us to make sure that there's competition, and that prices remain reasonable. We don't want to go back to the days where there was only one airline and they charged a fortune to get off the ISLAND. We are happy that the UK has intervened because our own politicians are too weak willed to say no to MOL. We need at least two airlines providing services to ensure that we get a reasonable deal. As Aer Lingus is the only airline capable of competing with Ryanair, we need them to stay seperate.

What is so hard about this for some people to grasp, a MONOPOLY is NEVER good for the consumers...

[Hangar6]

I think if FR got EI he would close it now some may not care some would,
FR were bailed out by GVt action in taking EI out of STN and Lpl to ensure
Our small island had two airlines competing , sometimes we have had more than two but the time we had just one based here was bad for everyone,

Fr have done a great job, they don't need to close EI

Share price and last bid offer of 130cent indicate that MOL undervalues EI , one day it will be sold and for a realistic price, that's business it's just that short to medium term EI is better off with Anyone than FR

Ba are hoping EI are bought by Fr and closed , might send a few passengers BA way and keep EY out of IAG ever decreasing back yard

[ayroplain]

What is so hard about this for some people to grasp, a MONOPOLY is NEVER good for the consumers...
I'm agreeing with you, but for very different reasons. Lovely lazy day for this debate:).

[racedo]

I think seeing as the share price jumped to a near 5 year (4 year, 9 months) high following the announcement, I'm guessing most share holders are going to be pretty happy about the development.

What you mean those who bought at €2.20 in September 2006 will be happy that their investment is now worth 73% of what they paid for it............this after watching management blow €600 million not counting the bases set up.

[Aerlingus231]

What you mean those who bought at €2.20 in September 2006 will be happy that their investment is now worth 73% of what they paid for it............this after watching management blow €600 million not counting the bases set up.


You mean those same shareholders who only 9 months ago had their shares valued at less than a euro? Yes, I think they'll be pleased. I don't see how anyone thinks that something that causes share price to go up won't be welcomed by the shareholders? :ugh:

The only person that isn't happy about the share price going up is MOL as he knows that this means that Aer Lingus are doing things right and aren't screwing things up, because if they were screwing things up, then share price would be going down, not up.

[Hangar6]

Racedo

I am pleased re share price and even MOL is pleased as well
Two facts on our rumour network !! Don't have a heart attack ,

[Sober Lark]

But, unfortunately shareholder interest and employee interest are not always aligned.

[Aerlingus231]

No, indeed they're not, but in this individual case I think that this is a good outcome for both the shareholders and employees.

[racedo]

No, indeed they're not, but in this individual case I think that this is a good outcome for both the shareholders and employees.

How ?

60% of the funds raised at the IPO have been blown away with nothing in return.

How is this good for shareholders ?

Share price is less than 75% of its float price.

[Aerlingus231]

So you think that share holders would be happier if last weeks annoncement wasn't made and share prices didn't go up? Explain to me, how the shareholders aren't happy, that in the last 9 months stare price has risen 73%? :ugh:

Also, it's not nothing in return, they're averting a strike, you know, because they need workers to work in order to make a profit, so that's the thing they're getting in return for it.

[Jack1985]

How is this good for shareholders ?


Racedo maybe you'd ask Michael O'Leary the same question, the money he has wasted in Aer Lingus is comical. Then has the neck to complain about share price when it is a clear reflection of Ryanair's holding.

[racedo]

So you think that share holders would be happier if last weeks annoncement wasn't made and share prices didn't go up? Explain to me, how the shareholders aren't happy, that in the last 9 months stare price has risen 73%? :ugh:


Wow great but you ignoring that its 28% down on floatation in 2006.



Also, it's not nothing in return, they're averting a strike, you know, because they need workers to work in order to make a profit, so that's the thing they're getting in return for it.

Wrong it is.
Employees already paid for their employment.

[Aerlingus231]

Employees already paid for their employment.

So when the employees go on strike, and the airline starts losing money, your excuse to the shareholders who's share price would be diving is, "Yeh, but we pay them a wage anyways like". :ugh:

Do you think the shareholders would be happy with the airline losing money and reputation due to a strike? What planet are you living on?

[ayroplain]

The way I look at it is this. I'm paying my workers to do a job for me. If circumstances change I might have to reduce their pay and change some work practices to economise. I may even have to let some go. It happens all the time in real life businesses small and large. If they go on strike and refuse to do the job I pay them to do then I'll have to sack them and find someone else who will.

Further, if I have already contributed more than once, out of the goodness of my heart, to another fund for which I have no liability and they come along a while later with, "Please, Sir, I want some more" or they'll strike I'll just tell them to sod off. I certainly won't be handing them an envelope with a Hundred Grand in it.

[Hangar6]

So when do we hear about the long haul fleet plan ? 330 and 757
Thankfully Ducksie was away for the final sign off but it should e this week

[Aerlingus231]

If they go on strike and refuse to do the job I pay them to do then I'll have to sack them and find someone else who will.

Problem is, when the majority of your staff go on strike you can't just sack them all, paricularly ones such as the engineers at Aer Lingus where Aerospace Engineers are already in extremely high demand, you'll have lost them to other companies with in no time, and it'll take years to train in new ones, as with cabin crew you're talking about upwards of 10 weeks to train them, much longer in fact, as you'll no longer have the people who are trained to train them on your pay-roll. So in practice, that doesn't work. No airline can survive for 3-4 years without operating flights while they train in new staff. You have to reach a compromise.

Share holders stocks will be worth nothing if the company doesn't exist.

[dublinaviator]

@Aerlingus321

If it comes to it, of course you can and it's been done before. Ronald Reagan sacked thousands of air traffic controllers when they went on strike in the early 90s. And if unions come back in a few years looking for more money and resort to strike action, that's exactly what should happen to them.

[Shamrock350]

Do we really want to end up in that situation though, an airline sacking thousands of staff due to a strike? The disruption and damage to reputation would already be done with weeks of bad press following the strike.

I don't like the idea of Aer Lingus handing over that amount of money but the alternative would have potentially much worse consequences for the airline. The share price has responded well to the deal, there's been little noise from other share holders and the unions remain quiet so the only fuss is coming from Ryanair. Are we surprised? No.

Anyway, with all that out of the way hopefully we'll hear of some long haul schedules soon. The 757 deal and A330 deployment should be soon, there's been plenty of rumours so it'll be interesting to see the official plan once it's announced. Got to be some time this month?

[Aerlingus231]

Difference being, the FAA had 'unlimited funds', it didn't need to make a profit. Aer Lingus will not legally be allowed operate in both this country and others if it's staff are not qualified.

[racedo]

Problem is, when the majority of your staff go on strike you can't just sack them all, paricularly ones such as the engineers at Aer Lingus where Aerospace Engineers are already in extremely high demand, you'll have lost them to other companies with in no time, and it'll take years to train in new ones, as with cabin crew you're talking about upwards of 10 weeks to train them, much longer in fact, as you'll no longer have the people who are trained to train them on your pay-roll. So in practice, that doesn't work. No airline can survive for 3-4 years without operating flights while they train in new staff.

So you reckon that an airline couldn't find Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew quickly ?

An airline with a fleet the size of EI could dismiss all its staff and be flying again with 14 days maximum using contract staff brought in from everywhere at what ever cost is necessary.

Politically it would never happen in Ireland but never assume management would not go for the nuclear option........................that one has been proven by many Unions to be a bluff called and actioned.

[Aerlingus231]

So you reckon that an airline couldn't find Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew quickly ?

Firsty, the pilots aren't involved in this, they've their own union and pension fund.

Secondly, no I don't think all the engineers could be replaced in 14 days, there's a massive global shortage of rated Aircraft engineers. It's next to impossible to get one at the minute, never mind an entire team of over 200 of them. And then to train them up and get them registered with the IAA? Not a snowballs chance in hell could that happen in 14 days. Even if you manage to poach an entire team of engineers from another airline, it's gonna take a number of months, and it's going to cost you so much, you may as well just close the doors to begin with. Also bear in mind Garda clearence takes about 6-7 weeks to come through, if you've got 3000 people waiting to get cleared, it's going to take the best part of a year.

Cabin Crew could be replaced quickly enough, but 14 days is too soon, they'd also need to be trained in doing it Aer Lingus's way.

And how exactly does Aer Lingus find all these people when their entire office staff has been fired? Is the board of directors going to go through and find 3000 suitably qualified people themselves? Who'll set up all the records and payment processes for these new staff. Who'll show them how to use the custom designed systems that Aer Lingus use?

While on paper you might be able to say it's an option, long story short, firing all staff is not an option for Aer Lingus.

[curser]

Ayro, 'when you pay your workers to do a job' but isn't that the point. Part of their contact was a pension. They knew they'd never die rich but they bargained that against the secure pension option. So for all those years when they dragged themselves out of bed at ungodly hours or worked through kids birthdays and anniversaries the deal was " you do this, and we'll mind your future". Stock markets fell, property crashed and a hole appeared in the plan. The company doesn't get to walk away Scott free any more than they get their lost weekends back, and that my young fella is what happens in the real world. And belt up with to your envelopes of a hundred grand, do you know how much an office worker, baggage handler makes? Real world indeed... They could teach you a thing or two. And can we all stop playing poor old racedo's game, he's been wrong so many times its painful, fire everyone, real world lads, grown up conversations.

[VanBosh]

No problem with the above but why did EI state in their prospectus that they had no further liability? If they always anticipated some form of contribution should that not have been disclosed? They also said last year they would not make a contribution. What has changed? The staff were always going to strike.

Will the DAA contribute now I wonder.

[curser]

Is a good point and a cautionary tale for all, never allow yourself to be part of an untruth for the sake of expediency. Stems from Willie's time I think. Seem to remember we were presented with a very good series of reasons for going along with publicly Willie's story of "target benifit" pension. If recollection serves it was a "without prejudice" sort of tacit consent because on this occasion our objectives aligned and it suited our cause to keep shtumm. Roll on a few years and he's fired for an alleged conflict of interest and then on to bigger things and we are left with the toxic fallout. A clearly chartered defined benifit pension, and a rather nieve market place who didn't perform due diligence and an outstanding management team who are/were creating a viable solution while running in my view the finest small European airline, supported by an accommodating but understandably wary staff. Big Bucks, big pressure game now heading for conclusion. What could stop them now, certainly not mol with his company of despair.

[ayroplain]

I don't like the idea of Aer Lingus handing over that amount of money but the alternative would have potentially much worse consequences for the airline.
Sounds like blackmail to me.

...and the unions remain quiet so the only fuss is coming from Ryanair. Are we surprised? No.
Of course the unions remain quiet. They appear to have got away with murder, oops, blackmail and can't believe their luck. You must also remember who is on the EI Board!! Are we surprised? No. The only shareholder who has the courage to speak out against it, as far as we know, is FR.

[Sober Lark]

A colossal funding deficit in the Superannuation Scheme has Aer Lingus trying to shore it up with a €150 million plan and bottom dollar such an action would be open to legal challenge by Ryanair or the unmentionable one. So Aer Lingus appears to have to face up to the cost of a legal challenge or protracted industrial action. To that mix you'll also find Shareholder satisfaction will be as transient as a short spell of fine weather in an Irish summer.

[Aerlingus231]

Share price up another 3 cent today, highest it's been since May 2008. Someone explain to me again why the shareholders aren't happy? ;)

[LAX_LHR]

As noted on their own threads, MAN/BHX schedules for the winter are out.

MAN goes 6 daily (5 daily on Saturdays), with Aer Lingus A320's operating 4 of the flights, and Regional ATR72 on the other 2 flights.

Overall MAN goes to 41 weekly.

BHX remains at 6 daily, with the Saturday nightstopper not operating. Aer Lingus A320's on 3 flights, Regional ATR72 on the other 3.

Overall 41 weekly.

[racedo]

Is a good point and a cautionary tale for all, never allow yourself to be part of an untruth for the sake of expediency. Stems from Willie's time I think. Seem to remember we were presented with a very good series of reasons for going along with publicly Willie's story of "target benifit" pension. If recollection serves it was a "without prejudice" sort of tacit consent because on this occasion our objectives aligned and it suited our cause to keep shtumm. Roll on a few years and he's fired for an alleged conflict of interest and then on to bigger things and we are left with the toxic fallout. A clearly chartered defined benifit pension, and a rather nieve market place who didn't perform due diligence and an outstanding management team who are/were creating a viable solution while running in my view the finest small European airline, supported by an accommodating but understandably wary staff. Big Bucks, big pressure game now heading for conclusion. What could stop them now, certainly not mol with his company of despair.

Management stating that there was no further liability would be classified as a statement of fact which would only have been made with legal advice.

Shareholders who bought in the original offer have a right to rely on facts used in the Offer documents..................

The fact that management wish to conduct something different doesn't preclude shareholders from suing and claiming compensation for what was in offer, they are at a financial loss, it is their money that is being used.

[racedo]

Cabin Crew could be replaced quickly enough, but 14 days is too soon, they'd also need to be trained in doing it Aer Lingus's way.

And how exactly does Aer Lingus find all these people when their entire office staff has been fired? Is the board of directors going to go through and find 3000 suitably qualified people themselves? Who'll set up all the records and payment processes for these new staff. Who'll show them how to use the custom designed systems that Aer Lingus use?

While on paper you might be able to say it's an option, long story short, firing all staff is not an option for Aer Lingus.

Everything is an option no matter how unlikely...................in EI case I have a better chance of winning Euromillions than it occurring but happened with Irish Ferry did it not ?

History is littered with examples of people believing management wouldn't do the unthinkable...................National Union of Mineworkers though that, Ferenka workers in Ireland, as mentioned Reagan with Air Traffic control, Hostess brands with Twinkies..................there are more

Everybody assummes that everything would be the same in the event a company sacked everybody and rehired their replacements..............history tends to show that it never is because new people do things differently (not necessarily always better just differently). Companies always have disaster plans for recovery just in this case they bring them in.

[Epsomdog]

Racedo

You can't seriously believe it feasible to sack all of an airlines staff and re- hire within 2 weeks! That's got to be a tongue in cheek statement surely?

[racedo]

You can't seriously believe it feasible to sack all of an airlines staff and re- hire within 2 weeks! That's got to be a tongue in cheek statement surely?



Depends what you hiring and how much you paying................and may not need to sack all.

I posted what is the nuclear option for management of an airline (any airline or business) and you will always find people willing to do it............enough cash you will find people.

Not sure any Airline in Europe would do this because they would get blocked at airports.

[curser]

Don't feed it, placate it! They could they really really could racecourse or they could burn all the aircraft or what else.... They could enter into a corporate suicide pack in protest. But kiddo none of these things will happen. The passengers continue to book and travel with Ei as they have the superior product and motivated staff who genuinely care about people and by extension the company. The company will continue its organic growth. As to cash and people, such innocence, when young minds grapple with the world these are the premise they construct in order to make sense of the world they are faced with. Later as adults the complexity of the human condition becomes manifest, it's a humbling period of self growth but rewarding, you're gonna love it racedo! Nottin but love for you baby. Always good for a laugh " yeah Let's fire everybody wooo! And then let's go and play on the swings!"

[ayroplain]

motivated staff who genuinely care about people and by extension the company
I always have a good laugh when someone trots out this nonsense. You must not have been around when these "motivated staff" were walking off the job and leaving thousands of their customers stranded, or when EI were forced to hire in aircraft from FR and others to keep a threadbare schedule going plus all the times when their threats of strike right up to the day left more thousands of their "cared-about" people under severe stress. Get real.

[Aerlingus231]

http://corporate.aerlingus.com/media/corporateaerlinguscom/content/pdfs/Traffic_Statistics_May_2013.pdf

Traffic stats out for May; Regional, Shorthaul and Longhaul all up.

Regional up 2.3%, 13.4% for year to date.
Shorthaul up 3.9%, down 0.2% for year to date
Longhaul up 20.2%, up 11.3% for year to date.

Total excluding Regional up 5.6%, up 0.8% for year to date.
Total including regional up 5.3%, up 2.0%for year to date.

Average load-factor up to 79.3%, an increase of 3.6%

Great results all around it looks like, particularly on long haul, 20.2% growth!!! :D

[curser]

Great set of results indeed. Ayro you vastly over overstate your case and well you know it, not even worth disproving. High pressure game played for huge stakes, resolution of which has allowed for future growth and the realization of share holder value while continuing to afford Ireland reliable (in every sense of the word) access to the wider world. I think you misunderstand the difference between motivated/dedicated staff and servile staff. Frankly I hope fr management continue in their ignorance, as it's that difference that gives Ei it's commercial edge. Such vitriol ayro, what can have caused such ill feeling? Is it as you previously asserted, that money buys people? Or are you unselfishly motivated? In Which case you I'm surprised at your lack of empathy for the Ei staff position. Just postulating, your motivations are your own but you don't ring true.

[ayroplain]

but you don't ring true
I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting here but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I am not influenced by what is posted here by fanboys of any airline or rubbish published in the Daily Mail et al.

I make my points based solely and entirely on my own personal experiences over years of flying - more than 50 return flights a year. I used to fly a lot with EI but the very absence of what you claim their staff to be was what influenced me to finally abandon them coupled with so many personal experiences of flights not being on time (a MUST for me) and what I perceived to be disinterested staff. If you fly as often with them and have had better times good luck to you but I will not sit idly by while people claim that EI is, somehow "better", when, in my considerable experience, it is anything but.

[curser]

Succinctly put, and with your level of custom I'm sure you're missed. Clearly you had a bad experience but and have chosen to travel with one of their competitors. I wish you happy trails but you must realise you are in the minority. Ei market share is growing and their business is based on repeat custom so clearly they must be doing something right which does not justify letting you down but does put it in context. Do you also stalk the chat rooms of your other discretionary spends, are you for example activity participating in the great BMW/Merc debate, has your dish washer let you down and do you put those zanussi people in order on line or is it just Ei. A couple of delayed flights, a poor service experience and you seem to have lost all perspective. We have used them repeatedly over the last few years, while I had no vested interest and we haven't been let down... We must just be lucky... Hope it holds.

[Schipholhand]

As I look at the present composition of legacy (or former 'main') carriers in Europe, it saddens me to remember BOAC, British European, British caledonian,KLM, Air France, SAS, Swissair, Sabena, Lufthansa, Austrian, Luxair, Alitalia, TAP,Finnair, Iberia and Aer lingus, who pioneered the development of air travel in times when flying was an expensive novelty for the customers. How many of the are left, in non-hybrid corporate configuration??. Certainly not British Airways, Air France, KLM, Iberia etc., who are really part of some kind of crossover development, bending backwards to satisfy shareholders ( banks??) and trying to hoodwink the customers into thinking that rationalisation is really for the customers' own good. Perhaps the competition to survive, as an entity, has kept Aer lingus, Lufthansa and Finnair on their toes, with the Ryanair's of this world growling at their heels....maybe I'm wrong

[BEagle]

Well, despite O'Leary's comment that 'fewer than 1% of people in the UK fly with Aer Lingus', I had an excellent trip from Birmingham to Dublin and back with them a couple of months ago. Friendly, professional service at a good price.

Had they been swallowed up by another Irish airline, I'd have had to fly either from LHR or perhaps Oxford, because I will never, ever fly with Ryanair. Long may Aer Lingus prosper!!

[Skipness One Echo]

How many of the are left, in non-hybrid corporate configuration??. Certainly not British Airways, Air France, KLM, Iberia etc., who are really part of some kind of crossover development, bending backwards to satisfy shareholders ( banks??) and trying to hoodwink the customers into thinking that rationalisation is really for the customers' own good.
Given I would be paying 8-9 times the price to fly at BOAC levels of service, well done those rationalised, shareholding pleasing corporate entities. Hate to be the one to tell you this but British Airways most certainly does exist and they're doing a better job than BOAC ever did on almost any level I can think of.

Really.

Also Aer Lingus don't need a weeks wages to fly me to Dublin in order to er....still lose money somehow when they did that (!) I'd rather have a choice and pick and choose between them, which I currently do, than be forced to fly one or t'other.

[EI-A330-300]

The Government have put off the sale of their 25% stake for the foreseeable future.

[ayroplain]

According to today's Irish Independent the 'motivated and caring' staff (as described here recently) have again voted for industrial action. Pilots' turn this time.

[Aerlingus231]

Indeed, looks like manegement refused to pay them their increments that they were owed this year after a 5 year pay freeze. Here's the link:

Aer Lingus vote threatens travel misery for 150,000 - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/aer-lingus-vote-threatens-travel-misery-for-150000-29358883.html)

[MCDU2]

At the same time the management take home ever increasing bonuses paid for by the staff and AL is one of only 3 European airlines that are consistently making huge profits - quote our lovely CEO.

[ayroplain]

LOL, I love the cut and thrust of these Forums. Still, more worry and stress for EI pax hoping their holidays won't be ruined again. The increases being sought are so unreal (assuming they are as reported).

[Jamie2k9]

People are looking way to much into this.

Remember this is the independent a paper who's journalists haven't a clue about transport, even the daily mail could produce a better and more accurate article. Post credible sources.

Anyway I don't expect the strike to happen and I have just booked flights for that weekend!

[Aerlingus231]

Agreed, this is more of just a bargaining tool that the pilots have thrown into the ring in the negociations. They won't strike on the busiest weekend of the year, most journeys for that weekend will likely have already been booked as this is being announced 6 weeks ahead so it looks like they're attepting to limit any damage to the company, whether the strike goes ahead or not, other then the last minute bookers.

I don't think you can deny them their increments if it was part of the deal for the 5 year pay freeze and 12% pay cut, that they'd get them back this year, they've made a profit for the past 4 (5?) years, so the management don't really have a leg to stand on in denying them the increments.

[Hangar6]

Folks any idea when this will be announced ? b757 ex SNn , extra route etc?

DL went to 3 ex dub today
EY going 777 3jul
AA doing the usual with their schedule to Ord

A busy summer and getting cramped in T2 already

[Jamie2k9]

I don't think you can deny them their increments if it was part of the deal for the 5 year pay freeze and 12% pay cut, that they'd get them back this year, they've made a profit for the past 4 (5?) years, so the management don't really have a leg to stand on in denying them the increments.

They are not denying them just delaying them. Pilots need to face the reality they won't get what they want and management are right to push for a better deal and pilots even if they do strike will just have to deal with it and accept lower increments.

In the long term a better deal will be of more benefit to the airline and it's employees.

[Aerlingus231]

I imagine the compromise will be something along the line of starting the increments again, paying the increment for this year, but that's it, they won't get back the increments they've lost for the past 5, that's just lost. Sounds reasonable enough, although who knows, seeing as they were promised all their increments they may have had plans for that extra bit in their wage packet, either way, sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.

[racedo]

Remember this is the independent a paper who's journalists haven't a clue about transport, even the daily mail could produce a better and more accurate article. Post credible sources.

So are you claiming the Pilots haven't threatened to strike ? or that the Independent somehow got their demands incorrect ?

[Hangar6]

Worth reading even the deadline :\headline sorry

[Jamie2k9]

So are you claiming the Pilots haven't threatened to strike ? or that the Independent somehow got their demands incorrect ?

That's what I am saying, they haven't threatened to strike.

[Hangar6]

Looking like Sfo and YYZ are firming up ?

[Aerlingus231]

The above mentioned link for anyone interested:
State to become a ?more active? shareholder in Aer Lingus now that stake is not being sold - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Fri, Jun 21, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/state-to-become-a-more-active-shareholder-in-aer-lingus-now-that-stake-is-not-being-sold-1.1437439)

Good to see the state taking a more active role in EI, if they're going to keep their stake they may as well be putting it to good use.

[dublinaviator]

State to become a "more active" shareholder in Aer Lingus now that stake is not being sold - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Fri, Jun 21, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/state-to-become-a-more-active-shareholder-in-aer-lingus-now-that-stake-is-not-being-sold-1.1437439)

“The Minister wants the Government to pursue a more active shareholder role, including securing new routes which will benefit trade and tourism and the payment of an annual dividend,” said a spokesman for the Minister.

Aer Lingus is also expected to confirm routes from Dublin to San Francisco on the US west coast and Toronto in Canada.

[Aerlingus231]

Beat you to it... :p

[Paul_from_Dublin]

Without giving away any commercially sensitive information, does anyone know if the SFO route is likely to be in place before Oct this year? EI currently fly to ORD and put you on UA for the SFO leg. I'd hate to book via ORD only to find a non stop is launched shortly afterwards. :yuk: Thanks.

[racedo]

That's what I am saying, they haven't threatened to strike.

So a vote for industrial action by Pilots has not taken place ?

[Aerlingus231]

No, a vote allowing the union to bargain with industrial action has taken place.

[EISNN]

So a vote for industrial action by Pilots has not taken place

Yes a vote for 'INDUSTRIAL ACTION' has taken place. Industrial action doesn't necessarily mean dropping tools and walking out on the job. It can mean working to rule ie working strictly to their terms and conditions without offering any flexibility.

[racedo]

No, a vote allowing the union to bargain with industrial action has taken place.

So union has a mandate to strike BUT a date had not yet been decided upon.

[racedo]

The above mentioned link for anyone interested:
State to become a ?more active? shareholder in Aer Lingus now that stake is not being sold - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Fri, Jun 21, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/state-to-become-a-more-active-shareholder-in-aer-lingus-now-that-stake-is-not-being-sold-1.1437439)

Good to see the state taking a more active role in EI, if they're going to keep their stake they may as well be putting it to good use.

And people think politicians with agenda of vested interests is a good thing in running an airline.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

How well are Irish politicians ruining their economy again ?

[Aerlingus231]

There is no strike, there will only be a strike if the management don't come to a reasonable compromise. It's not that there will be one and they're looking around for a nice date.

[Bearcat]

321, your going to have to smell the coffee here. Management are not paid to do reasonable compromises being on multi , multi 100k bonus's together with an utter long standing distain of the pilot body doesn't help.

[Aerlingus231]

And that'd be why the vote was taken to put industirial action on the table if they refused to act reasonably in negociations...

[Bearcat]

Did I hear a white flag was seen waving amongst the sand dunes?

[DollarBill]

To answer 'Paul from Dublin'......

EI will not be launching a west coast route in Oct. If they do launch a west coast route it would be for next Summer (April-ish start date)

The EI Winter schedule is already locked down. And 3 months notice is too soon to start a new route, winter launches wouldn't be the best time of the year anyway. I would hazard a guess that we will see an announcement 8-10 months in advance of any west coast route.


As for the pilots issue......I see it as EI mgmt reneging on a deal that they shook hands on. I would fully support the company not awarding increments if the company was doing badly and needed the sacrifice........but at present EI have not enough seats on their A330 for the demand, their A320 are mostly full and they have a higher profit margin than FR.

[missterrible]

@DollarBill

Did the pilots not demand a lump sum contribution to their pension and is that not what triggered the non-payment of the increment, the same as for the rest of the staff?

[Paul_from_Dublin]

Many thanks :ok: for the info DollarBill. I can go ahead with the booking. Will be trying out the front of the plane which will be a first for me and my companion with EI.

[Jack1985]

Department asks that Ryanair be ordered to sell Aer Lingus stake - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/department-asks-that-ryanair-be-ordered-to-sell-aer-lingus-stake-29372439.html)

[racedo]

Minority shareholder attempts to use foreign laws to disenfranchise other minority shareholder and impose conditions to ensure nobody can challenge their shareholding.

Yup that one will fall flat on its face in a courtroom.

[Una Due Tfc]

FR have repeatedly operated routes in direct competition with rivals out of Ireland purely to chase away said competition, and then when said competition ceases ops on said route, FR either bump up the price massively or cease said route altogether ( think EZY in SNN or some of Aer Arann's domestic routes). If FR were to buy EI then the consumer would suffer.

Also the repeated FR takeover attempts have prevented fleet/base expansion by EI on numerous occassions. 2 successful airlines operating multiple routes from Irish Airports is good for the consumer. And don't give the FlyBe excuse, we know exactly what FR would do after their protection is up

[racedo]

Also the repeated FR takeover attempts have prevented fleet/base expansion by EI on numerous occassions.

Which base expansion did it prevent ?

Gatwick...
Belfast...

And how did FR takeover attempts prevent EI spending so much on paying employees tax or yet more pension contributions ?

[Just a spotter]

FR have repeatedly operated routes in direct competition with rivals out of Ireland purely to chase away said competition, and then when said competition ceases ops on said route, FR either bump up the price massively or cease said route altogether

A tactic that EI used to employ quite a lot (using tax payers money), with much success against new entrants into the Irish market and it nearly succeeded with FR too, prior to Minister Seamus Brennan "calling off" the then wholly owned State flag carrier and allowing FR the room to get a foot hold.

JAS

[EI-BUD]

Una due tfc
Couldn't agree more in my view FR have been totally predatory:
- went after EZY rigorously then abandoned most routes
- Followed Go onto EDI and charged £5 e/w until they axed routes
- Pursued RE's business and penetrated their thin routes with similar routes ex SNN and of course ORK DUB is no more
- and now Wizzair ex Cork, lets see how the frequency pans out there post wizz
- for these reasons the stage is set and few carriers will dare to enter the market

Great to see now that despite the failure of the base outside of the Island of Ireland , the airline is focussing on its areas of strength ie transatlantic flying And connectivity via DUB. And this is enabling new routes like Stockholm and Verona . Moreover, as the airline recognised the scale of ops at LGW wasn't working it has emergent strategy ie transatlantic and their new arrangement with little red and they tell us to expect more of this.

For all their faults they have stood the test of time are profitable. Can compete effectively with Ryanair , where most else have failed.

Finally, great to see the BHD base performing well especially euro routes. London routes future also looks bright as BE prepare to exit in 2014.

[Una Due Tfc]

Last time FR were making a hostile takeover bid (ie not the most recent failure, but the one before) EI were operating 320s out of Aldergrove. As I'm sure any readers of this thread from Belfast will testify, Aldergrove is a bit annoying for them being so far outside the city. Meanwhile FR were operating 738s out of Belfast City with reduced loads due to MTOW restrictions from City's short Runway, and as a result were making a loss. So of course they pulled out of Belfast altogether.

During the lull between the two most recent bids, EI were free to spend some of their cash again, so bought some slightly smaller aircraft (a319s) and moved to Belfast City.

FR's single type aircraft fleet was unsuitable for EGAC, however due to EI's Independence, they were able to make some changes and exploit this. As a result BA do not have a monopoly on the Heathrow route ( which they would do without EI even if FR do go back ). So an example of how having them separate from eachother is better for the consumer, no?

And as for EI chasing other airlines off routes years ago, yes they did,and it was bad for the public. Difference is, EI did it 30 years ago and were finally made to stop, FR are doing it NOW.

[floss689]

Racedo

What is your problem with EI? Its clearly personal. Every post you make on this forum is completely negative against them. I just wonder whats behind it all?

[peacock1]

Floss, I agree ref. Racedo.
A paid stalking horse, perhaps?
Sad existence if true.
But.... paid by whom ?

[PPRuNe Pop]

Listen guys this nonsense with throwing mud and insults has got to stop.

The first time I see that it has started again I plan to close the thread until you all play by the rules and stick to the topic.

I am getting fed up clearing up all the fits and toys. I have better things to do.

If you find that you cannot follow the rules find yourself another site.

PPP

[DollarBill]

Minority shareholder attempts to use foreign laws to disenfranchise other minority shareholder and impose conditions to ensure nobody can challenge their shareholding.

I have to agree with Racedo here.. :eek: .....seems a bit of a cop out for the Irish Govt to get the UK OFT to do something because the Irish corporate regulations are not comprehensive enough.

[ayroplain]

If, for example, previously BA had had a 30% share in BMI and both were flying UK-IRL I cannot see how the Irish Govt or its people could have cared less about a large and a small UK airline.

So, try as I might, I can't see how the UK Govt. could really care less about a large and a small Irish airline. The EU doesn't appear to have a problem with it either.

So, draw your own conclusions.

[missterrible]

Michael inspires different things in different people.

[Hangar6]

UK airlines barely serve Ireland never did never will

On the other hand most uk airports number one or two busiest routes are EI or Fr ,so both the uk and irl want to have competition to Ireland and that means two irish airlines, very simple it's in UK interest to have its top ten airports whose number one or two busiest routes are to Ireland on one of two irish carriers, continue to grow and prosper.

Economics page one chapter one , keep the revenue coming in by product that's wanted and competitively priced .

UK needs EI footfall and FR cannot provide it to UK by themselves

[peacock1]

Perhaps the interest of the British Office of Fair Trading is based on the importance of the Irish market to British exporters.
Ireland is one of Britains major export destinations, as well as being a major source of British imports.
Safeguarding rapid access, and crucially, non - monopolistic, competitive fares is therefore important to the home economy, hence the OFT concern.
:ok:

[Skipness One Echo]

UK airlines barely serve Ireland never did never will

BMI did rather well, indeed BA kept the LHR-DUB route after the take over. The only reason GO and EZY didn't last was Ryanair went in with loss making and predatory pricing practices. EZY didn't even try Dublin and still were roasted by FR into LGW.

[Hangar6]

But
Overall the percentage of people who fly uk Roi is 80/20 on Fr and EI
ba are doing fine on one route no longer serve ex man Bhx LGw to Dublin so Fr really need proper competition to ROI and BA have bigger and higher yield routes to focus on other than ROI ?

[Hangar6]

Irish times today reporting SFO back next year , hence all the recruitment of late

[Aerlingus231]

Aer Lingus set to resume flights to San Francisco - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Mon, Jul 01, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-set-to-resume-flights-to-san-francisco-1.1448328)

Here's the link for those interested. Congratulations to Aer Lingus, hopefully we'll hear an announcement for that 3rd 757 route soon.

[IrishFlyer2013]

DUB-SFO may be announced on Wednesday.

I took this comment from the Travelbiz.ie PPRuNe account.

"It looks as though Aer Lingus are launching their new Dublin-San Francisco flight at last. With Christoph Mueller inviting the trade to lunch on Wednesday it is assumed he will officially announce it then. But watch out for a second announcement ! Might be another new route !!"

[eick320]

AerLingus from 02APR14 is resuming*Dublin – San Francisco*service, where it’ll operate 5 weekly service on board Airbus A330-200 aircraft. Reservation for this route opened Tuesday (02JUL13) morning.EI147 DUB1220 – 1520SFO 332 x24EI146 SFO1720 – 1135+1DUB 332The airline last operated this route in October 2009.

[eick320]

Also, the Irish carrier from 21APR14 will begin*Dublin – Toronto*service on board Boeing 757 aircraft. Service will operate on daily basis, marking the airline’s return to Canadian market on scheduled basis since October 1979 (2 weekly Shannon – Montreal route with Boeing 707). Configuration of the Boeing 757 is C12Y165.

[Cyrano]

eick320, thanks for posting this news - if you are going to cut and paste, it's polite to at least credit your source Airline Route (http://airlineroute.net/2013/07/02/ei-sfo-s14/?utm_source=social&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=social130702)

[eick320]

Sorry my fault

[EISNN]

Just tried to (mock) reserve a flight from DUB to SFO on 2 Apr 13 and no such flight exists .......... yet. :{

[Shanwickman]

You say April 2013, maybe thats why it says no flight available.

[Shamrock350]

It's been taken off the site, probably in preparation for their own official announcement either today or tomorrow. The Toronto service showed a 757 seat map with a small Business Class cabin of 12 seats.

[Shanwickman]

It is still bookable for me.

[EI-A330-300]

About time they confirm them, SNN-BOS will also be daily year round and SNN-JFK will still have the 12 week or so break but operate 5 weekly at other times with the B757.

[Jack1985]

Delighted for Aer Lingus, Just wondering is there scope for a further route or possibly extra frequencies?

[irish lad]

well if JFK-SNN is 5 weekly will they use the 757 on another route on the 2 free days? Prehabs a W style rotation into Dublin.. Or SNN to Orlando route could do very well twice a week in the summer

[EI-A330-300]

They have to keep a day off for maintenance of the 3 B757 and some slack is needed for recovery of schedules if any major delays take hold and with connecting passengers it can cost the carrier a lot if flight schedules are not restored as normal as quickly as possible.

They keep a day free for the A330 fleet and that will happen next summer to so no room for extra flights from DUB besides the new ones just announced

[El Bunto]

So, they're going back to San Francisco.

The airline will have an uphill battle to regain trust in the tech and pharmaceutical sector after pulling the San Francisco service. A service which was said to have been 'exceeding expectations' and then suddenly wasn't.

Most of those I know rebooked on United and BAW through Heathrow and committed to travel packages with them. So there will be additional ramp-up lag as those expire.

[EI-A330-300]

EI will use T3-F in SFO same as United for most flights and not the International T1-A.

Also T1 at YYZ

The airline will have an uphill battle to regain trust in the tech and pharmaceutical sector after pulling the San Francisco service. A service which was said to have been 'exceeding expectations' and then suddenly wasn't.

Most of those I know rebooked on United and BAW through Heathrow and committed to travel packages with them. So there will be additional ramp-up lag as those expire.

Its these IT companies who are paying for x amount of seats per flight each over a 3 year deal as far as I know.

[MCDU2]

It's a different business model now. The numbers of non Irish connecting through Dublin from the UK and Europe on a daily basis is enormous. Many of these pax will be enticed with clearing CBP in Dublin and avoiding the nasty big European hub airports. As mentioned its targeted at the IT fraternity who were approached by AL for assurances on filling the business cabin. Add into the mix a possible code share on the route and a bit of cargo and there is nothing to say it won't turn a tidy profit. After a while the pax that took their business elsewhere may well be forced to bury the hatchet when the accountants do the cost/benefit of a direct versus indirect service.

[EISNN]

yup. I'm hearing from pals of mine that there is a daily total avergage of about 40-50 pax from Italy alone transferring onto the later ORD and JFK flights. Spain, France and the Netherlands proving very popular also.

[Skipness One Echo]

the numbers of non Irish connecting through Dublin from the UK and Europe on a daily basis is enormous
It's not enormous, it's really not. 6-7 flights each day to a whizz bang total of four, soon to be five US destinations isn't huge. It's niche and it's well marketed and it supports a large P2P operation, however it's barely a hub and spoke. By way of comparison, BA long haul at unloved LGW is bigger.
Kudos for still being in the game though.

Telegraph Article
Dublin airport 'an alternative hub to Heathrow', says Aer Lingus - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10158483/Dublin-airport-an-alternative-hub-to-Heathrow-says-Aer-Lingus.html)

[MCDU2]

No one was comparing to the likes of BA and the big legacy airlines. That would just be silly. But the game has changed. Think the figures are now a mix of 55/45 of non Irish inbounds. The Irish market which has for so many years driven the airline is becoming less of a factor. Expect that ratio to widen.

[EI-A330-300]

1,044 million passengers in June up 3.1%

Short Haul LF was up to 81.6% while passengers numbers increased 1.7%
Long Haul LF was up to 94.5% while passengers increased 17.2%

Very impressive Long Haul Load factor considering the major increase in capacity.

http://corporate.aerlingus.com/media/corporateaerlinguscom/content/pdfs/Traffic_Statistics_June_2013.pdf

[Shamrogue]

Fairplay to Aer Lingus.

Also on the inbound traffic. I've flown EI a couple of times in the last few months TA - and I've found the whole T2, wifi on board, lovely crew ......the whole package to be excellent.
I've also passed through LHR.......OH Dear lord........And I suspect Aer Lingus will continue growing TA traffic on that basis.

Regards
Shamrogue

[MCDU2]

The following article highlights why Willy was happy to jump into bed with MOL over the carve up of Aer Lingus. That plus being able to hold up a finger to the Irish government. Would have been a win/win for him.

Have always thought that the retrenchment by BA to be a predominantly London based airline made them susceptible to attack on all fronts. What with the 3rd runway seemingly on hold permanently its a sticky wicket for him.

Dublin airport 'an alternative hub to Heathrow', says Aer Lingus - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/dublin-airport-an-alternative-hub-to-heathrow-says-aer-lingus-29394768.html)

[EI321]

I just saw an all-white painted 757 take off from Dublin (10.30pm). Its dark outside and most of the window shades were down so Im assuming it was not a passenger flight. Could this possibly be pilot training for the new EI 757s?

[Dontgothere]

Probably a Titan Airways 757 covering for a shortage of serviceable Shamrock aircraft, wouldn't surprise me, it's a fairly frequent occurrence

[Jamie2k9]

Aer Lingus confirm discussions with Airbus for A320NEO order and drop a hint about growth from Turkey.

Aer Lingus Reboots Flights to West Coast US, Eyes Turkey (http://www.nasdaq.com/article/aer-lingus-reboots-flights-to-west-coast-us-eyes-turkey-20130703-00481#.UdVM8TjTi9E.twitter)

I just saw an all-white painted 757 take off from Dublin (10.30pm). Its dark outside and most of the window shades were down so Im assuming it was not a passenger flight. Could this possibly be pilot training for the new EI 757s?

The 757's EI are getting are still flying for Finnair.

[bannercounty]

It was an A320 you saw, It also flew the LHR- SNN on Wednesday late afternoon.

[El Bunto]

I just saw an all-white painted 757 take off from Dublin (10.30pm). Its dark outside and most of the window shades were down so Im assuming it was not a passenger flight.Your deduction was correct. It was TAY031W using unliveried 757 OO-TFA on the TNT cargo run to Liège

Departed directly south bang on 22:30.

Edit: it's a combi 757 and the windows ahead of the wing are permanently blanked.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "It's not enormous, it's really not. 6-7 flights each day to a whizz bang total of four, soon to be five US destinations isn't huge. It's niche and it's well marketed and it supports a large P2P operation, however it's barely a hub and spoke. By way of comparison, BA long haul at unloved LGW is bigger.
Kudos for still being in the game though"

Doubt if it's too avoid LHR as all domestic routes are at LHR-5 and connecting is dead easy if staying on BA and relatively easy otherwise.

No it's probably more to do with:

(1) only 7 UK airports offer flights to/from LHR; and

(2) pre-clearance at DUB avoids the aggravation at the US destination (rather than at LHR).

[Jamie2k9]

Doubt if it's too avoid LHR as all domestic routes are at LHR-5 and connecting is dead easy if staying on BA and relatively easy otherwise.

No it's probably more to do with:

(1) only 7 UK airports offer flights to/from LHR; and

(2) pre-clearance at DUB avoids the aggravation at the US destination (rather than at LHR).

Aer Lingus connections are popular because,
Price, service offering, faster connection times, customer service and the ease of transfer and excellent OTP.

Pre clearance does not impact a lot as many don't know about it from Europe and the US side.

You comment about domestic UK flights to LHR being low, Edinburgh is the top UK connection point and it has over 10 flights to LHR per day. Bristol is close to LHR yet its second in line for connections. Turning to Europe Amsterdam has endless connections all over the world, yet its the top connection airport for EI to the US.

Now people are booking single tickets to DUB and then onto the US with EI and even connecting further from the hubs with JetBlue and United.

KLM or BA don't offer any advantage only higher prices to keep airport operators happy, longer flights, longer connection and poor service. Time for them to up there game.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "You comment about domestic UK flights to LHR being low, Edinburgh is the top UK connection point and it has over 10 flights to LHR per day. Bristol is close to LHR yet its second in line for connections. Turning to Europe Amsterdam has endless connections all over the world, yet its the top connection airport for EI to the US."

Wasn't commenting on the frequency of flights from the seven airports linked to LHR, just the fact that there are only seven!

Compare that to DUB and AMS which are each linked to over twenty.

Travellers from most UK airports do not have the opportunity to connect via LHR, even if they want to.

Quote: "Pre clearance does not impact a lot as many don't know about it from Europe and the US side."

You sure about that? It's a good USP for EI, you imply that they're not marketing it properly.

Also bear in mind that only a few USA destinations are available from DUB.

[Skipness One Echo]

KLM or BA don't offer any advantage only higher prices to keep airport operators happy, longer flights, longer connection and poor service. Time for them to up there game.
Comprehensive frequent flyer programs and worldwide louge access? A First Class product on competing US routes? Codeshares and co-operation within Oneworld? Larger more modern aircraft with the B777-300ER already in service and the A388 and B788 arriving this week? LHR-JFK is competitive with Aer Lingus as the high yield front end subsidises the back end to maintain frequency. I know you work close to them Jamie but some balance please.

Aer Lingus long haul is nice little niche, they're not and cannot hope to be a major player. I'm old enough to remember EXACTLY all of this being said when the B737s and BAC111s were retired and the B747s were replaced with A330s. They would be fed by a fleet of Fokker 50s to build a transatlantic hub. In 1991. Here we are 22 years later and EI now have a whole seven long haul aircraft and still only five (vs BA at 18 LHR + 3 LGW to the US) destinations, one of which is literally Mickey Mouse. I love Aer Lingus and am impressed at how they've survived living at the home of Ryanair but call a spade a spade, not a professional, precision digging implement.

btw What's the deal with EI-FCC, the semi naked and leased A320? Didn't Aer Lingus return some A320s off lease just recently?

[Jamie2k9]

You sure about that? It's a good USP for EI, you imply that they're not marketing it properly.

Also bear in mind that only a few USA destinations are available from DUB

Have they ever marketed it a lot, you don't know about it until you search the website in detail.

No Boston services clear in the summer, and either does 7 of the 11 ORD service. EI are far from happy with it at the minute.

Comprehensive frequent flyer programs and worldwide louge access? A First Class product on competing US routes? Codeshares and co-operation within Oneworld? Larger more modern aircraft with the B777-300ER already in service and the A388 and B788 arriving this week? LHR-JFK is competitive with Aer Lingus as the high yield front end subsidises the back end to maintain frequency. I know you work close to them Jamie but some balance please.

Aer Lingus long haul is nice little niche, they're not and cannot hope to be a major player. I'm old enough to remember EXACTLY all of this being said when the B737s and BAC111s were retired and the B747s were replaced with A330s. They would be fed by a fleet of Fokker 50s to build a transatlantic hub. In 1991. Here we are 22 years later and EI now have a whole seven long haul aircraft and still only five (vs BA at 18 LHR + 3 LGW to the US) destinations, one of which is literally Mickey Mouse. I love Aer Lingus and am impressed at how they've survived living at the home of Ryanair but call a spade a spade, not a professional, precision digging implement.

Will agree that EI Gold Circle is very bad, its a niche market that can be grown a lot. It hurts BA more than most carriers and this will continue and BA would do anything to stop it if they could.

btw What's the deal with EI-FCC, the semi naked and leased A320? Didn't Aer Lingus return some A320s off lease just recently?

Its not in full colors because its leaving for another airline in October, they returned one aircraft and this is to cover any tech issues.

[Noxegon]

Gold Circle is probably the worst frequent flyer scheme out there. It's absolute madness that you no longer get any points at all for an economy transatlantic flight. My parents do four round trip DUB/JFK flights a year, and they're probably going to drop out of the frequent flyer programme as a result...

It's also worth noting that the Business Class product on EI is very dated; it is not a patch on BA Club World.

[ayroplain]

Here we are 22 years later and EI now have a whole seven long haul aircraft and still only five (vs BA at 18 LHR + 3 LGW to the US) destinations, one of which is literally Mickey Mouse.
This is true but, in making your point, I think you have to remember that EI was not a proper airline. It existed solely for the convenience of the Government, the rich, its unions and staff so there was no incentive (or even reason) to expand it. The cosy arrangement with BA was an extension of that. It is equally important to remember that the Management and Board were people who knew little or, in most cases, nothing about aviation. Then a real airline, FR, came along, burst that bubble and bypassed all that nonsense. EI simply couldn't cope. It is extraordinary that EI had almost a half-century start on FR and yet they were spectacularly passed out.

Unfortunately, due to the intransigent unions and staff who were entrenched in cushy circumstances, trying to change proved a near impossibility not helped by more utterly inept management.

Nevertheless, and regardless of whether or not you fly with them, you have to agree that the current CEO is doing quite a good job given what he came into and the obstacles he has subsequently had to face. It must be soul-destroying for him having to get union agreement for even scratching his ass and, inevitably, progress has been very slow. But, there HAS been progress and I wish him well.

[akerosid]

Quoting ayroplain:

"This is true but, in making your point, I think you have to remember that EI was not a proper airline. It existed solely for the convenience of the Government, the rich, its unions and staff so there was no incentive (or even reason) to expand it. The cosy arrangement with BA was an extension of that. It is equally important to remember that the Management and Board were people who knew little or, in most cases, nothing about aviation"

With all due respect, I don't think that's entirely fair. It's certainly true to say that EI was largely controlled by the govt and it was kept under a firm thumb. I remember that time too and was active in the Shannon stopover issue at the time; I can tell you that there were a lot of EI people who knew very well the damage this was doing and how urgent it was to get rid of it; it was Maire Geoghegan Quinn who tried to silence EI employees from commenting on this (and ordered the then CEO, Cathal Mullen, to take disciplinary action against them - which thankfully never happened).

It is true to say that, had the stopover not been there, EI could certainly have expanded; at that time, ALC had a pretty large network in the UK, and it was ultimately its own shareholder which prevented this from happening; Aer Rianta, as you'll recall, was dead set against any change, largely because US bound pax could use its duty free shops twice, once at DUB, then at SNN. It would have been comical, were it not so serious.

It wasn't until Brian Cowen introduced the 50/50 split between DUB and SNN, in 1993, that the first crack in the wall of the SNN stopover appeared - and did the Shannon crowd bleat! (In fact, the 20th anniversary of the first nonstop is around now.)

Sure, there were things EI didn't do so well, but I think that credit should be given where due. I would certainly agree that EI is a better airline now than it has ever been and CM deserves praise for this, particularly given that EI is competing against Europe's most ruthless competitor.

[Omnipresent]

It's a niche and good on EI but a 757 reported to have 12 business class seats isn't going to cause many headaches at BA which sends 747s with 14 First Class, 70/52 business class and 30/36 premium economy seats.

[Paul_from_Dublin]

Quoting Akerosid

"I remember that time too and was active in the Shannon stopover issue"

Akerosid, I remember well reading many of your patient, persistant and reasoned posts on different forums about this. I'm pretty sure you played a significant role in getting that self-defeating stopover removed. Can't believe that was 20 years ago.

The subsequent growth in transatlantic services from Dublin has been modest and steady and continues to head in the right direction. Shannon successfully retained transatlantic ops on a more realistic basis and looks to have a sound future. BA, according some, don't miss the traffic that is now traveling via Dublin instead of Heathrow so all we need is for Cork to secure a direct US flight and everyone's a winner here.

[ryan2000]

It'd be interesting to know how many people travel to the U.S. from Cork on EI's code share with KLM via Schiphol and with BA via LHR. It would give some idea of the potential traffic on a direct route.

Also with the smaller aircraft on JFK EI mightn't be as dependent on the Cork's catchment to support the Shannon flight as was the case with the 747's and A330's

[EISNN]

Any truth to the rumour that EI might operate one of the 757's to AGP/FAO ex DUB following their arrival in from YYZ in the morning and will be back in time to go back over to YYZ in the afternoon? Neither make sense if you ask me as larger seat capacity A330 and A321 are operated on both routes in the morning already. Will they use the 757's in SNN to operate anywhere? Don't think there's enough time to operate either of them to any southern Iberian destination. Near European destination would be best option considering the arrival and departure times of the aircraft to and from BOS and JFK. Question is though, "where?" if at all?

[Aerlingus231]

Not exactly sure what benefit it would be to them, the 757s only have 177 seats in comparison to the A320's 174, and they'd burn a considerable bit more fuel. Perhaps if an A320 went tech they could slide in and do a rotation if there was the time remaining, but with such a low density layout, I can't see them using them in inter-European routes when they have the A320 and A321.

I'd understand if the 757s were high density with maybe 200-210 pax, but not 177.

[dublinaviator]

The seat capacity on the 757s will be about the same as Aer Lingus' A320s, so I can't see them downgrading from an A330 to a 757 on such a profitable route as AGP or even FAO. If there is a gap in the schedule I'm sure they'll find a use for it, but it definitely won't be AGP.

[ryan2000]

They might use one on SNN-FAO instead of doing a rather awkward W with a Cork based 320. As far as I know the cabin crew have to be transported back and forward by road.

[EISNN]

Thanks for that everyone. That's all what I was thinking myself. It was only a rumour I'd heard and it really didn't seem to make any sense to me either. It was just on an off chance but there might be some truth to a near european destination such as CDG, AMS or (wonders would never cease) BRU to SNN and onwards? I feel that those routes would not generate enough traffic and from a business man's point of view it mightn't be enough if it was meant to be a day trip. Not to mention that it would possibly take from DUB operations. Maybe even the old BFS-SNN-JFK route that was there before? Or maybe BHD? Can BHD take a 757?

[MCDU2]

There were rumours that a 75 could do ACE as it won't be runway limited. Full loads off the northerly runway with the wrong winds often result in a tech stop getting back to Dublin for the 320/1. Will have to wait and see what pans out.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "This is true but, in making your point, I think you have to remember that EI was not a proper airline. It existed solely for the convenience of the Government, the rich, its unions and staff so there was no incentive (or even reason) to expand it. The cosy arrangement with BA was an extension of that. It is equally important to remember that the Management and Board were people who knew little or, in most cases, nothing about aviation."

You make it sound like AI! AI really has been screwed.

Quote: "It'd be interesting to know how many people travel to the U.S. from Cork on EI's code share with KLM via Schiphol and with BA via LHR. It would give some idea of the potential traffic on a direct route."

Any pax wanting to go the US from ORK on EI via DUB can no longer do so. IF these pax are connecting through LHR and/or AMS in droves then maybe it's a bit of an "own-goal" on EI's part?

[EI-BUD]

Not exactly sure what benefit it would be to them, the 757s only have 177 seats in comparison to the A320's 174, and they'd burn a considerable bit more fuel. Perhaps if an A320 went tech they could slide in and do a rotation if there was the time remaining, but with such a low density layout, I can't see them using them in inter-European routes when they have the A320 and A321.



The benefit might be that despite the extra fuel burn they will be able to add frequency where airbus aircraft are not available or deployed on another route.

"Can BHD take a 757"

There is a really interesting idea, BHD management would give their eye teeth to get a transatlantic flight in. This would need to be like LCY SNN JFK LCY operation, doing pre clearance at SNN. Given low punt of fuel on arrival and departure I think it might work, but I'm nog sure the economics would stack up .

[Michael Scott]

757 performance out of BHD would depend on the weather conditions and specifics of the route and ETOPs etc. but it's not as marginal as you would think with a full load. SNN pre clearence stop could be an option but it would need aggressive marketing. Getting 190 odd pax to leave their stuff to go out to pre clear and get them on again is something that could be a turn off for those that haven't endured a 2 hour wait in immigration before!

Another thing to bear in mind is the apron capacity at City - a 757 takes up two stands and with the apron running at over 100% at the moment it would take Aer Lingus or Flybe to reduce their base allocation to make it work. TCX have had 757 ops within the past few years though.

[flying officer kite]

They had a 757 in last month, and one in the 90s.

Its a really interesting suggestion for BHD. One of the biggest problems is that they dont have anywhere big enough at the terminal to feasibly park a 757.

I suspect that even the mighty 757 wouldnt have the oomph to get off the ground fully loaded for a transatlantic voyage, but i could be wrong. They have had fully laden 220 seater A321s fly out to Spain, and full Ryanairs to mainland UK.

Looking at other airports with similar runway lengths, like Bristol- they operated 757 services to Newark and even 767s to the Caribbean (even if one had a crumpled landing), but i presume being on a hill with no obstructions (not to mention yakking airport watch types) gives them better performance capabilities..?

[flying officer kite]

Hmm the TCX flights in Belfast City have always been 320s and 321s. Some of them Belgian registered

[CCR]

Think a far more practical option would be for Aer Lingus Regional to provide ATR services from BHD to Shannon to connect with flights to New York JFK, Newark, Boston, Chicago and Philadelphia.

Though with Aer Lingus`s negative attitude to reinstating Cork-Dublin flights which numbered up to 11 a day during the Celtic Tiger days, think we`ll be a long time waiting for either route:ugh:

[El Bunto]

There were rumours that a 75 could do ACE as it won't be runway limited. Full loads off the northerly runway with the wrong winds often result in a tech stop getting back to Dublin for the 320/1. Will have to wait and see what pans out. Even a tech stop can work out cheaper than running a 757 on a route; the Renton Rocket burns a good 1.5 tonnes more per hour than an A320 in cruise.

It can haul an extra 50 pax in high-density config but that can't outweigh 50% more fuel ( and that's a conservative figure ).

Overpowered == inefficient, sadly.

[VanBosh]

Accepted its very rare but next Sunday both flights to Boston are sold out in economy. Should EI not offer a connection via UA or Jet Blue?

[Aerlingus231]

Not all that rare, Flights last month across the Atlantic operated at a 96% load factor on average so there'd have been a few full flights going across. But indeed, probably better for them to offer a connection in JFK or ORD back to BOS, unless they're full too...

[johnrizzo2000]

The 757 operating DUB-YYZ, 'could' be used on a short European route between 7am and 12.30, to ensure its back in time for its YYZ flight, but the 757 offers no extra capacity over a 320/321, and adds complexity to the operation, as only SNN based cabin crew will operate the 757.

Maintenance for the 75s will be done in SNN, so I'd expect they will operate some SNN-DUB-SNN positioning flights. If the early morning SNN-LHR flight was earlier, the 757 could operate it, but realistically, the only European flying they'll do would be on the Tues/Thurs when the JFK doesn't operate

[CCR]

Maybe SNN-LGW-ORK-JFK or SNN-BHX-ORK-JFK;)

[brian_dromey]

John,

Some interesting news regarding the 757. My thought is that flying out of DUB is unlikely, unless they really need the range/lift/performance. The Greek islands spring to mind, maybe Medira, but these are pretty nice destinations, not even served by EI currently.

I think we might see some flying on the "off days" from SNN, assuming EI would prefer not to operate the European services on Ws from Cork. Think the FAO only operates twice weekly anyway?

[vkid]

Are EI training in Snn at the moment or something. Seems to be a 737 doing the rounds today and yesterday. Anyone know?

[CallBell]

Are EI training in Snn at the moment or something. Seems to be a 737 doing the rounds today and yesterday. Anyone know?

Are you sure it's a 737? EI don't operate any B737 aircraft

[vkid]

no not sure at all...dunno why 737 came into my head...
its flying over my office for the last couple of hours...so just curious. Don't think I've seen EI do that in SNN for many years but again could be wrong.

[Aerlingus231]

Could be training in the new cadets on the 320...

[fivejuliet]

Yes, they have been training today and y/day at SNN. A few weeks ago they were in 5 days in the week.

[vkid]

Thanks folks.

[ayroplain]

Have heard from a friend passing through Gatwick last evening that EI cancelled both evening flights to DUB and that there was an apology from EI on the Information Desk screens stating that the reason for cancellations was "crew shortages". Both flights? Are things really that bad in EI?

[MCDU2]

All seats on all fleets are getting called on our days off and whilst on leave. It would be nice to think that there is someone that can be pinned for the undermanning but no doubt a lot of ar*e coving is going on and no one will be to blame. Same old same old. It only seems like yesterday that they were telling the union we had a surplus of pilots. Mind you that is the usual mantra whenever we are looking for anything off management.

[Jamie2k9]

Not sure that crewing was totally down to two of the three evening flights being cancelled. There was technical problems earlier in the day and it put some aircraft schedules out which had knock on affects. Anyway those flights that were cancelled are not operating again until early September.

[DollarBill]

@ayroplain....

Indeed it seems that somebody in EI manpower planning does not understand their job title. EI currently DO NOT enough flight/cabin crew to operate all their flights at the peak of the summer. They cover the schedule but have cut things so close to the bone in terms of "cost rationalisation" that they cannot cover any diversions/tech delays/increased sickness levels.
No current operational flight/cabin crew have been permitted to avail of the current redundancy option....and EI are asking for volunteers to operate on their days off. (Even thought most crew are close to annual 900 block hour safety limit){when crew approach this level sickness increases due to cumulative fatigue and/or reduced time off to rest and/or have a life.....ie 1 day off, 5 days on,1 day off, 5 days on, 2 days off is a common fortnight in EI}

EI middle mgmt have cocked up yet again. :ugh::ugh:

EDIT:"crew shortages" as a reason is incorrect....."crew shortages due to to inept planning" seems more apt.

[Bearcat]

Middle mgt will still get their mega mega bonus's anyway.......

[ayroplain]

EI currently DO NOT enough flight/cabin crew to operate all their flights at the peak of the summer. They cover the schedule but have cut things so close to the bone in terms of "cost rationalisation" that they cannot cover any diversions/tech delays/increased sickness levels.
Very interesting. So, what would have happened to the 300? pax from the two Sat evening cancelled flights. Unlikely to have been able to accommodate all of them on Sunday flights (unless some of them were diverted to LHR-DUB instead). Although, mind you, it strikes me that a Summer Sat evening LGW-DUB might not be a particularly busy period so maybe they were easier to cancel if the loads were lower than elsewhere.

[Aerlingus231]

They probably cancelled the least disruptive one where passengers can be most easily accommodated on other flights, might just have thrown an A321 on the next morning.

[ayroplain]

They probably cancelled the least disruptive one where passengers can be most easily accommodated on other flights, might just have thrown an A321 on the next morning.
Don't get this. They cancelled two flights.

[Aerlingus231]

Probably both were scheduled to be operated by the same crew.

[ayroplain]

Probably both were scheduled to be operated by the same crew.
Maybe, but that's not an answer to the question I actually asked.

[EI-A330-300]

Aer Lingus and unions agreement over pensions has being rejected by pensions board.

Plan to plug hole in Aer Lingus pension rejected - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0715/462615-plan-to-plug-hole-in-aer-lingus-pension-rejected/)

[Jack1985]

Probably both were scheduled to be operated by the same crew.

That's correct, It's typical of how Aer Lingus staff short-haul routes for example of the 4 daily Cork to Heathrow flights 2 of each are operated by separate crews.

[EI-A330-300]

Those crew had to operate a charter to GVA from LGW on Sunday morning which will explain the cancellation on Saturday and the Titan sub in for DUB, We are talking about 2 out of 3 flights being cancelled in a 4 hour period on a Saturday evening. I expect loads were ver light and well below 100 per flight so many passengers would of transferred to the flight that operated.

EI have just taken on crew but on the other hand they have added a lot of extra flights for the summer much lather than normal which is good that demand is high but they are dealing with crew remember they don't have crew that they can get or drop like certain other carriers do.

They had extra capacity on Sunday morning,

[eick320]

To my knowledge 6 sectors were cancelled into and out of Dublin today due crew shortages, unfortunately there isn't any quick fix coming. Shame to have aircraft, passengers ready to fly but no crew to operate.

[EI-A330-300]

To my knowledge 6 sectors were cancelled into and out of Dublin today due crew shortages, unfortunately there isn't any quick fix coming. Shame to have aircraft, passengers ready to fly but no crew to operate.

Indeed and passengers from 4 were all transferred and Titan are planned to operate an extra out to ALC tomorrow as their is no A321 free to do it.

New crew started this week and more due to start 29 July AFAIK, Saturday only seems to be the problem.

[DollarBill]

Again we see the short sighted nature of EI mgmt....

get staff costs down by reducing numbers....."oh no we don't have enough staff to cover disruptions/sick leave/maternity"........

I'm sorry, but training new staff at the height of the Summer makes no sense...they should have been trained in April/May at the latest, so that they could be deployed in June. It's not as if the Summer season came as a surprise (unlike the weather!)

This incident really highlights how EI is now being run by number cruncher's rather that aviation people.
How much does a Titan B767 cost? UK-DUB-ALC-DUB-UK...Keep in mind that EI seem to have at least 1 Titan per week recently.....How much do 10 cabin crew cost on a yearly basis?

Meanwhile the CEO gets a bonus of 110% of his salary.............

[barossavalley]

Only EU airlines who have obtained acceptances from 50.1% of Aer Lingus shareholders need apply
Ryanair Offers To Sell Aer Lingus Stake To Another EU Airline (http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryanair-offers-to-sell-aer-lingus-stake-to-another-eu-airline)

[Aerlingus231]

Wow, big news.

Looking at that, that means:
1) They want an airline to buy EI, not investors or a hedge fund, so while that's not exactly what EI management were looking for, at least it won't be liquidated by a hedge fund.

2) This other airline will have to make a full takeover bid for EI.

My guess would be IAG despite them saying they want no involvement, although there would be a bit of a conflict between EI's and BA's Transatlantic networks, and if Ryanair make it their business to damage EI as much as possible, EI are really going to need to rely on a strong TA network and connections to and from it...

The Lufthansa group may be a possibility, but not as likely as IAG IMHO.

I can't see AF/KLM taking them on at the minute.

Any other airline/group in a position to acquire an airline?

[840]

In short, Ryanair have offered to sell itto nobody.

Without access to Ryanair's block of shares, any airline is looking for 72% of the outstanding shares, which means persuading the Irish Government and half of all remaining shareholders, including the employee groups.

[Aerlingus231]

Is that what they're saying? When I read it I understood it to mean that they'd sell it to anyone who was able to get 21.1% in addition to Ryanair's 29% stake to make it 50.1% . No?

[840]

They aren't clear, but there's no reason to believe that Ryanair are offering their shares up from that press release.

I interpret that to be a way of saying they're offering a remedy without any requirement to actually do anything.

[Shamrock350]

"WE'RE SELLING OUR STAKE IN AER LINGUS....actually no we're not, we're just trying to make a point"

Not really news at all, just Ryanair mouthing off. Now if they made a big announcement about selling it to Etihad, that would be news.

[Aerlingus231]

Infact, by making this announcement, they've effectively said they won't sell to Etihad. :ugh:

[Shamrock350]

Like they were ever even going to consider that. That could be very beneficial to Aer Lingus and they can't have that kind of thing going on!

Ryanair's announcement today is a lot of noise without actually doing anything. Clever-ish.

[Cyrano]

Is that what they're saying? When I read it I understood it to mean that they'd sell it to anyone who was able to get 21.1% in addition to Ryanair's 29% stake to make it 50.1% . No?

They're saying, "if you're an EU airline and you get acceptances from 50.1% of other EI shareholders, [B]then we'll sell you our 29.8%").

As Shamrock350 says, this is much sound and fury, signifying nothing. Remember it doesn't come in a vacuum - the UK Competition Commission is firming up its findings, so Ryanair is in negotiation mode (just like its previous high-profile commitments for what it was going to do with Aer Lingus, made in response to EC mergers enquiries).

Yes, the UKCC was concerned about how Ryanair's shareholding might prevent a takeover of EI by an EU carrier, but it was also concerned about how it might prevent EI getting into JVs and other commercial relationships with other carriers, and Ryanair's offer today does nothing to address that.

[racedo]

Non EU party is not able to hold 50% in an EU airline........they the rules and not going to change because EU Govts will never want it to change.

UK Competition Committee claiming that by holding 29% they are blocking any bid, therefore in indicating that any EU airline with 50.1% can buy they are negating any claim they are blocking a bid.

Now of course you will see a huge rush of bidders...er No.

Will it see the share price jump spectacularly so those claiming EI is worth €3 billion will realise their fantasy..........:rolleyes:

[Lord Lardy]

The appeal process appears to have begun before the verdict has been publicly announced. I suspect the findings will be a full sell off of their shareholding. The Ryanair proposal is as usual pure waffle.

Why would any airline bid for a shareholding that will be greatly depreciated from current value in the future under a forced sale.

[ayroplain]

I've read that statement a few times now and, far from being "waffle", I think it is very clever. The UKCC has already been exposed but this one finishes them off...........unless, of course, there HAS BEEN ALL THE TIME or IS an EU airline that wants EI and EI (and the Irish Government) wants them. Breath being held...............

[Sober Lark]

I wouldn't be leaping for joy (the incredibly short-sighted DAA can only be thrilled at the news) with what has happened being especially mindful of the temporarily good financial position which conceals the fact that Aer Lingus can't possibly prosper on its own.

[MCDU2]

SL - are you Racedos big brother?

AL is one of only 3 EU airlines making a profit. The bank accounts are bulging. The loads are jammed. Yields are high. It has shifted from being Ireland centric and is now focussed on code shares and inbound pax. Most longhaul flights are over half full of connections.

I can't wait to hear of your tales of woe.

[racedo]

I've read that statement a few times now and, far from being "waffle", I think it is very clever. The UKCC has already been exposed but this one finishes them off...........unless, of course, there HAS BEEN ALL THE TIME or IS an EU airline that wants EI and EI (and the Irish Government) wants them.

Unlikely because if they had an offer and withheld it deliberately from the market then any increase or decrease in share price could end up directors being sued by shareholders who sold too early or too late.

Also a Stock Exchange would look very unfavorably on any company or individual as potential for insider trading would be significant. It also a Jail term in many countries.

[j636]

Anyone want to guess why MOL didn't get a comment on the press release. Very unlike him not to take the chance to slam EI, EU or the UK competition aoutority.

Very strange.

[Bearcat]

Why bark when you have a dog to bark for you?

[Sober Lark]

And at that Bearcat, it has to be the right type of dog.

[isayoldchap]

Sober Lark, indeed it does !! It's a pity the pooches who post on here appear to be a cross between a Bulldog and a Shih Tzu.....

[Una Due Tfc]

So he says he will only sell to another European Airline? Typical MOL, he knows the only Airlnes in Europe who could afford that right now are IAG and Luftie, and if they did take over I can't see the incredibly successful trans Atlantic situation for EI continuing. Why won't he sell to a hedge fund or to the stock market?

I'd be curious to know what share price he would sell at even if this ridiculous criteria was met. It's smoke and mirrors from him as usual

[Hangar6]

I believe ducksie is playing a clever game here,
Probable that FR shareholding must be sold , shareholders have taken a huge loss on Ducksie,s folly, shares were purchased en masse at 3.30 !!!! What a mug
Anyway any comment now is solely to increase the share price, I love this approach, the market reaction to this appears to favour the idea of a sale , demand has increased for the limited shares in play, maybe for the first time ever ducksie has got it right on EI

[Jack1985]

I see Aer Lingus have capitalized on the white EI-FCC EI-FCC A320-214 Aer Lingus | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34845571@N08/9324080571/in/photolist-fcWmiR-fcN1yY-fc8nui-fc8jM2-fchP6G-fc3wkP-fbChH6-fbSyjA-fbCdUT-fbSyZw-fbSuKf-fbvArq-fbvAo9-fbvAn5-fbvApy-fbvz39-fbginF-faUxTZ-faUwTH-fauGrU-f9dSW2-f91jRe-f9fk8f-f8QBTB-f84t6z-f72ryC-f6ewmN-f6evbJ-f5CPde-f4jrXw-f4hKjq-f3NFaV-f3rJor-f3G2EG-f3rLNk-f3Gozu-f3s8cn-f3sgW8-f3GcX7-f3mJ7J-f2snuU-f1iTUu-eZZ8ej-eZGP5Z-eZRnyS-eZCGR2-eZnWze-eZcTCB-eZ9fkE-eYAYrp-eYafCp)

[EISNN]

Aer Lingus loses High Court challenge to Ryanair takeover bid - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Fri, Jul 26, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-loses-high-court-challenge-to-ryanair-takeover-bid-1.1476063)

So when do the 'games' recommence?

[Jamie2k9]

One thing at Ryanair and Aer Lingus can agree is the Irish Government trying bill the carriers for €8 in back tax per passenger after the EU ruled two different taxes based on distance travelled was illegal. Both are taken legal action.

Aer Lingus steps up legal battle with Government over travel tax - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Fri, Jul 26, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-steps-up-legal-battle-with-government-over-travel-tax-1.1475308)

[carsonEGAD]

Have Aer Lingus leased a Titan B767 as it is operating EI585 from AGP to DUB. Aircraft is G-POWD.