DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5

[TimmyW]

Next year will be extremely bleak for DSA. The number of flights lost is frightening. There is nothing to show that it will buck the trend, and while I may have been a little hasty in saying it is in a worse position than MME, it certainly hasn't got much to look forward to.

Seems to be a pattern with Peel run airports.

[pug]

There is of course the possibility that LPL is making a small profit, but losses at other airports push the group into a loss.



Subsequent press releases have said that all airports of the Peel airports are losing money individually.. Someone sent me a link to their accounts a few months ago, cant remember where but they are in the public domain. All losing quite alot (though perhaps understandable in DSA's case), but then we dont know how much of that is offset by the amount of real estate attatched to these airports. I'm not sure what sort of deal VAS got when they bought their stake either?

I seem to remember LPL being the one closest to breaking even.

[Get me some traffic]

I posted earlier that Teesside has an advantage over NEW and LBA. It also has an advantage over DSA and LPL, namely Chobham. Airport business is not just measured in pax nos. Chobham in the form of FRA and FPL bring valuable business to MME. Peel management should recognise this and build upon it. But no............ Chobham are preventing them closing the airport and developing the valuable land.

[phil5001]

Breaking News from The Northern Echo:


STRUGGLING Durham Tees Valley (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/search/?search=Tees+Valley) Airport has been put up for sale this lunchtime less than 18 months after its owners bought a controlling share.
Vancouver Airport Services, which bought a 65 per cent in the airport operators Peel Airports Limited in June 2010 after months of discussions, has made an annoucement today.



Full story here: Durham Tees Valley Airport up for sale (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9418878.Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_up_for_sale/)

[taxydual]

Oh dear.

Durham Tees Valley Airport up for sale (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9418878.Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_up_for_sale/)

[P330]

I guess the real question is whether the potential buyer will buy the airport as a going concern? Also, are the owners marketing this sale to the industry or outsiders with no interest in running an airport?

This could be a good development....it could also be the end.

[DTVAirport]

I agree with P330, I'm not going to pass judgement until I see who (if anyone in the current climate) buys.

[pug]

Interesting that KLM 'confirm' the end of the LPL flights on the same day..

KLM axes Amsterdam link from Liverpool John Lennon airport - Liverpool Local News - News - Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2011/12/14/klm-axes-amsterdam-link-from-liverpool-john-lennon-airport-100252-29951932/#ixzz1gVX9ME85)

[mattfalcus]

I wonder if Peel will retain ownership of the south-side land that was fenced off from the rest of the airport?

[DTVAirport]

More than likely Matt, that South side land hasn't been part of the airport for months.

As for KLM axing Liverpool, perhaps a good thing in a way? Given that only yesterday the rumour was they were going to axe us at the same time? Can't see them axing both routes separately.

[skyman771]

DTVAirport As for KLM axing Liverpool, perhaps a good thing in a way? Given that only yesterday the rumour was they were going to axe us at the same time? Can't see them axing both routes separately.
This is a curious conclusion that you have arrived at. :confused:
The announcement that DTV is up for sale is more than ever a critical issue in the viability of the airport. There is no need for KL to announce their withdrawal at this time, as their best strategy is to "sit on the fence". If KL are considering pulling out, then they risk serious bad press due to earlier statements, far better to wait & see what transpires. If they can't work with any potential future operator (i.e. agree to their terms!!) then they can easily pass the blame.
From PWC's point of view any sale as a going concern must surely require KL's AMS service which places them in a very strong negotiating position.
As a point Peel Holdings owned 75% of DTV. A 65% share of Peel Holdings was sold to VAS, yet all the dialogue here is "Peel" and as such their land development & previous track record over Sheffield.
Have any of you ever visited Sheffield when in operation, it was a small site on top of a hill !! & thus there was no chance of significant development, it was the councilors who were unable to grasp this concept and as such they took a deserved bath, unfortunately at the expense of the taxpayer.
Unsuprisingly then if one reviews the current response to the announcement that DTV is up for sale, then once again we have the council's starting to mouth off blaming all & sundry "Peel" when they themselves have done precious little in supporting DTV.
You had a situation with two inept sides, DTV management vs short sighted councillors, the result procrastination, while the world and your competitors move forward.
I said in my previous post that it would be extremely interesting to know as to what value "Peel" has placed on DTV, this should now be much more transparant now that the site is being placed on the market. .. Info please !

[skyman771]

Just taken from the BBC website
Prime Minister David Cameron said: "The key thing about the future of Durham Tees Valley Airport, which is a vital airport, is not necessarily who owns it, but is it being invested in? Is it being expanded? Is it working well? That is the key question."
On this basis :-
is it being invested in?.. NO!:{
Is it being expanded? NO!:{:{
Is it working well?... NO!:{:{:{

Hardly "three greens" & easy to see as to how "DC" would vote !
As said then at least this forum should heed the advice is not necessarily who owns it,
Incidentally who does own it? Everyone (BBC included) seems to ignore VAS, stating that Peel own 75% vs. the L.A.'s 25% stake.:sad:
AirportWatch | Peel sells airports stake to Vancouver Airport Services (http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/?p=4189)
P.S. I think I have worked it all out, judging by the image currently being used by the BBC & the Northern Echo web news pages to depict DTV, then the site is presumably being promoted as a prison;) ... who needs enemies :mad:

[tubtruck]

Well this looks like the end folks, to be honest I have already adapted. I quite enjoy the train ride to manchester and a nights stay in the Radisson Blu. I had the option of flying from Teesside this coming summer for a family holiday in Orlando but decided against it and booked from MAN instead due to worries I had about the airports viability. Shame it was business class flights too. My other trip presently booked for February is from MAN and my likely ski trip in January is also highly unlikely to be from MME either.

Why would anyone else want to buy a loss making airport I cannot see it.

[andrewmcharlton]

I find it amazing how many just want to apportion blame and carry out a witch-hunt or post mortem on what went on, pointless.

The fact of the matter is 99% of thread posters, lurkers and writers have no clue as to the confidential negotiations, contract clauses or agreements.

Going forwards without a sense of blind optimism and some new found realism would seem to be in order.

[fa2fi]

It's always sad when things like this happen. But although the hard product such as infrastructure and decorating cost money they could have went for the 'small and friendly' image. It wouldn't cost much - just a bit of training/replacing current dead wood.

My experience of MME is very poor. Dreadful attitude of security staff, indifferent customer service staff and a pretty poor cafe. I really won't miss it. It was lovely about ten years ago and always a pleasure. I think it's all well and good blaming the upper management but I feel people on the front line could do a lot better. I remember applying for a security pass a while back to hour build and I've never been treated with such contempt as the woman dealing with my request.

I feel sad we are losing a place to fly out of but feel the airport will be like a mini-Mirabel in a few years with a dormant terminal left standing and little or no activity. Sad.

[N707ZS]

A few questions, who owns what?
What is for sale?
Is it Peel or VAS who gets the money?

And most of all where is the Bmi millions going to go? 15 million was it, that would make a nice nest egg.

[ILS32]

The fact of the matter is 99% of thread posters, lurkers and writers have no clue as to the confidential negotiations, contract clauses or agreements.andrewmcharlton

You may well be right in what you say in regard to contract clauses and agreements etc but the majority of posters have DTV as their local airport.All they want is it to be successful.It may be wrong to apportion blame to existing or past management but something detrimental has happened to DTV to cause it to be in the predicament it finds itself in now.That's why they ask the questions how,why has it happened and whats being done to stop it?They put forward ideas for attracting new airlines,new destinations and more.They may subscribe to the blame game,witch-hunts but at the end of the day what they are after is that DTV will still exist as their local airport.

[Lancelot37]

Announced tonight - Peel have put up DTV for sale as airports are no longer in their interest! The airport will stay open in the meantime.

Reference Tyne Tees TV. 6pm.

[SWBKCB]

Why have we got where we are? Not enough people are prepared to pay enough money for airlines to make a profit. Full stop. This might have been exacerbated by some of their actions, LA actions, etc, etc but that's the bottom line.

It can't all be down to Peel as they've done it at LPL - expanded that from nothing (or as near as you can get!) with a major competitor just up the road and by all accounts made a fair few bob from developing the surplus land.

I'm sure their plan was to repeat the trick but I just don't think there is the underlying demand to make it pay.

If it's that important to Cobham, perhaps they'll put in a bid (minus all the surplus land) and it can become a company airfield - anybody else likely to be interested??

[Suzeman]

Peel have put up DTV for sale as airports are no longer in their interest! (my underlining)

Not so - only DTV as the other airports under Peel are not affected.

Statement from Peel below.


Wednesday, 14 December 2011

Peel Airports Limited has decided to sell the majority shareholding it holds in Durham Tees Valley Airport. As a consequence, PwC have been appointed to actively seek a buyer for these shares and to oversee any subsequent sale process.

Peel Airports has made this decision as Durham Tees Valley Airport no longer fits within the company’s strategic plans for its portfolio of airports.

Durham Tees Valley Airport will continue to operate as normal during this process with passengers due to travel over the coming weeks and employees based at the Airport unaffected by this decision.

75 per cent of Durham Tees Valley Airport is currently owned by Peel Airports Limited with the six local authorities owning the remaining 25 per cent.

[SWBKCB]

Just to clarify the position with Vancouver Airport Services - they bought a 65 per cent share in Peel Airports Limited, with the Peel Group retaining a 35 per cent share in Peel Airports Limited and a presence on the board.

[fa2fi]

Cant see Cobham losing too much sleep if MME shut. Thy could relocate to NCL or to one of the local airforce bases. Not sure what the flying clubs will do regards a licences field to train from but MME is hardly GA friendly. Maybe they will relocate, consolidate of shut. Still, I see there being a chance of it stayin open as a field perhaps just without passenger services.

[mmeman]

Surely this is an opportunity rather than the end. Everyone has been discussing for months that Peel just want the land to develop.. well clearly not.. Maybe Stobart are interested, develop it like they have at Southend.. Steve Gill said on BBC news that discussions had already taken place with some interested parties.

Funny day to announce this of course, only a couple of days after announcing the share reduction for the councils.. why not all at the same time? Not trying to bury bad news about KLM pulling out of Liverpool are they?

Also don't really understand why people don't have some local pride.. why not fly from MME instead of going all the way to Manchester and stay in a hotel? It really isn't that bad and even paying the £6 it would be cheaper! If it is that bad have you told the airport why, and what did they say to you?

If new owners came in and improved the experience would you come back as a passenger?

[roverman]

Also don't really understand why people don't have some local pride.. why not fly from MME instead of going all the way to Manchester and stay in a hotel?

For the same reason as people from Manchester drive/fly to Heathrow to take long-haul flights, sometimes on airlines who also fly out of MAN. Volume wins. The crazy skewed economics of this industry mean that it is often cheaper to do so.

[Richard Taylor]

"Surely this is an opportunity rather than the end. Everyone has been discussing for months that Peel just want the land to develop.. well clearly not.. Maybe Stobart are interested, develop it like they have at Southend.. Steve Gill said on BBC news that discussions had already taken place with some interested parties. "

What interested parties though? Fine if it's another Group interested in running it as an airport - but who would in these times? Not so good for those that wish to see it remain an airport if it's a Group of property developers looking to put up a new housing or industrial estate.

[horatio_b]

My one and only experience of DTV, last year, was spoiled by the attitude of an officious security guy. I emailed the airport to complain but never got a response.
Customer service is obviously not their strong point.
I have never been tempted to go back!

[ncleflights]

Is the main problem that at MME the demand for flights just simply does not exist in the immediate local area, Ryanair tried, BMI Baby tried, Wizz air tried - all failed to make enough money and left. You can have routes all over the place but if no one wants to fly them then they are not going to last and this is what has happened here.

Once the rot starts to set in then it needs sorting out quickly not a few years down the line as by then the decline is terminal and I fear this is what we are seeing here.

I would suspect that the future for MME lies unfortunately in a retail park, housing estate or business park and if we were not deep in recession then the planing application would already be in, the economic mess we are in may actually be keeping the patient alive. Does anyone, if your been honest with yourself, think that the airport can be saved as a going concern?

[learjet50]

Regretfully No Bull****


Bye Tees side airport

Its a shame we first went as a company 30 + years ago doing Pleasure Flights on Airport Open Days /// Air Shows in BN2A GAXXH howver those were the Halaycon days

Its so sad but Life


Gerry

X Northern Exec Avaition

[Barling Magna]

Well, I wouldn't hold out any great hope, but one tiny chink of light for DTV might be found in this interview with Andrew Tinkler, CEO of the Stobart Group, last month:

Tough and chatty, Tinkler is happy to discuss anything, equally unbothered if you disagree. His strength, he says, is in numbers, and spotting the main chance. Totally self-taught, he has never lost the urge to keep trying new things.

You can see that in the Stobart Group strategy. Buying Southend airport in Essex and obtaining permission to extend the runway, signing a 10-year deal with Easyjet, surprised some. Stobart already owns Carlisle airport, and Tinkler thinks a mix of freight and passengers can make small airports a very profitable concern. He may even buy more.

Certainly Stobart have revolutionised SEN and created a viable additional airport for London which has attracted EZY, and will no doubt attract others too.

[N707ZS]

A good start, Teesside to Southend 2x3 times daily.
Flight to Frankfurt.
Flight to Paris.
Possibly bring back Ryanair, but how much would they want?
Freight fresh fruit produce inbound for the warehouses on the docks, ASDA/M&S. Stobart are already a big player in the transport from there.
Could EZY be temted away from "the gready fat boy up the road".

Don't forget the planning permission for the South side is for aviation related buisness only.

And at the end of the day which Northern airport is in the most dept?

[HH6702]

it will be sad to see the end of passenger flights at DTV but i cant see how it can go on. Both KLM and Eastern mustnt be making any money or if they are very little.

The airport is making no money and before long the like of travelex and WH smiths will close as they wont open if not making any money.

I think the airport could still operate just as a VIP operation and build on that.

Stobbart buying DTV dont think it will happen they have carlise just a few miles away so a little too close. Also if they did get it i dont think they would get easyjet to base at DTV... Easyjet have little intrest in NCL.

DTV needs a small aircraft operater like FLYBE with there E190's flying to spain, france, portugal etc. that kind of aircraft and operation would work.
other operators aircraft are just too big for DTV to make it work!!

sad for the area and workers....

KLM to state they are to withdraw in a few weeks once peel state they are to finish passenger service at DTV in march 2012..??

[skyman771]

swbkcb Just to clarify the position with Vancouver Airport Services - they bought a 65 per cent share in Peel Airports Limited, with the Peel Group retaining a 35 per cent share in Peel Airports Limited and a presence on the board.
Don't think that you have clarified anything !!!
What you are stating then as Peel Airports are noted as owning 75% of DTV, then Peel only own 35% x 75% of DTV= just over 25% !! i.e a share just slightly higher than that of that of the L.A.'s !
Having not done a company search then I can not be sure, but this appears unlikely to be the position.:ugh:

[DTVAirport]

I don't think a buyer will be found in the present climate, I think this will force Peel to place the facility into administration and that will mark the end.

It goes without saying that I would much rather the airport found a buyer and prospered, but I'm not disappointed that after years slogging along, with a question mark continuously lingering, there appears to finally be a conclusion just around the corner one way or another.

Sincerely hope I'm wrong about that first paragraph, but just being realistic.

[SWBKCB]

swbkcb
Quote:
Just to clarify the position with Vancouver Airport Services - they bought a 65 per cent share in Peel Airports Limited, with the Peel Group retaining a 35 per cent share in Peel Airports Limited and a presence on the board.
Don't think that you have clarified anything !!!
What you are stating then as Peel Airports are noted as owning 75% of DTV, then Peel only own 35% x 75% of DTV= just over 25% !! i.e a share just slightly higher than that of that of the L.A.'s !
Having not done a company search then I can not be sure, but this appears unlikely to be the position.

Earlier contributors were saying why were Peel getting all the mentions and Vancouver nothing - the answer is that it is Peel Airports Limited which is the majority shareholder in DTVA (75% before the recent 'dilution exercise'). Vancouver doesn't have any direct ownership of DTVA, but it is the majority shareholder in Peel Airports Limited with 65%, so yes Peel Group own 35% of the 75% of DTVA.

[P330]

HH6702,

Go careful with the assumption about KLM and Eastern not making any money. Lets be clear, if both airlines had more profitable ways to deploy their aircraft...they would. Eastern charge premium prices to Aberdeen and make good returns....fuelled by oil and gas passengers.

I've already stated that KLM are committed to the airport providing the yields they currently make are maintained or improved upon. This means that even at 60% load factors....KLM are making satisfactory returns on the route. Despite the rumours mentioned on here, I maintain that KLM will remain whilstever the airport remains open and they can make money.

Add to the fact Skyman's point that if the airport is sold as a going concern, KLM are in an ideal position to bargain for a better deal as they are clearly the key airline if the airport is to continue as a civil operation.

Remember....businesses are in business to make money. That's why Peel want to sell up and that's also why Eastern to Aberdeen and KLM to Amsterdam have been around at MME for many years.....

[JKKne]

A good start, Teesside to Southend 2x3 times daily.
Flight to Frankfurt.
Flight to Paris.
Possibly bring back Ryanair, but how much would they want?
Freight fresh fruit produce inbound for the warehouses on the docks, ASDA/M&S. Stobart are already a big player in the transport from there.
Could EZY be temted away from "the gready fat boy up the road".

Don't forget the planning permission for the South side is for aviation related buisness only.

And at the end of the day which Northern airport is in the most dept?




If you can't make Heathrow a success why would Southend work?
If Newcastle can't get Frankfurt with its higher passenger numbers and presence already from Lufthansa why would MME?

Stobart bought Southend because it fits in with its business plan and its proximity to London. MME is not close to anything viable or important when compared to Stobarts Southend motives. And there's already a viable private jet market there and the potential of extra flights as the Olympics approach

You won't get major supermarkets moving depots without a massive financial incentive. ASDA have just invested heavily in its Washington Depot. M&S have the massive Bradford warehouse and Tesco have Doncaster.

It's all very well saying bring these back, do this. But it costs money and we're on the verge of a recession. MME is always going to be a small player. The demand simply isn't there. Its in a relatively poor region and has competition from better managed, developed and modern airports.

I think it should be let go with dignity instead of a final desperate claw back.

[jensdad]

Quoting 'Ncleflights': Is the main problem that at MME the demand for flights just simply does not exist in the immediate local area, Ryanair tried, BMI Baby tried, Wizz air tried - all failed to make enough money and left. You can have routes all over the place but if no one wants to fly them then they are not going to last and this is what has happened here.

Just my tuppence worth: It's unscientific I know, but whenever I travel through NCL, there are a large number of passengers with Durham and Teesside acents.
As previously mentioned, there is obviously a problem in that the steel, chemical industries etc have contracted, but these have been replaced by new industries to a certain extent. I really dont believe that the %reduction in passengers at MME is matched by the % reduction in people in MME's catchment area that are flying. The airport has gone into a vicious circle of less routes = lower passenger nos = less routes, ad infinitum. That creates problems in itself, but I really cant believe that an airline couldnt make money if they took a punt on a once or twice weekly A320 to Tenerife or Gran Canaria, or once a week to Rhodes or Crete, to pick some random examples.
From some of the comments on here, it sounds as if the attitude of a minority of the staff needs looking at , and the £6 fee sends out the wrong message.

[Hipennine]

Don't knock the potential of the supermarkets and the docks. They may have their big shiny DC's in Washington and places, but these are final delivery points before store. At the same time, they are investing big time in "port centric" logistics facilities, and especially Teesport where several have significant prescence, as they take over direct control of supply chains from the Med and further afield. Using MME as an adjunct to the "urgent" requirements may not be such a bad idea. Extended supply-chains are being stymied by the shipping lines consolidating frequencies, and steaming slowly. Suddenly air transport is becoming increasingly important in getting cheap goods onto supermarket shelves before either the fashion style or the technology ages.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Surely now that there is a possibility the airport won't even be there next year (at least in a passenger carrying mode) people will not risk booking any KLM flights from MME. Afterall the difference between profitability of a given route can be down to one or two people. The route is already marginal and therefore this route is a goner I would have thought.

There are always going to be Teesside accents at both NCL and LBA but the truth is the airport (MME) cannot stand on its own and be profitable. Enough airlines have given it a try and just not been able to make it work. Perhaps the people of the north east should be glad that they have relatively close airports at Leeds and Newcastle that offer a good selection of routes?

[N707ZS]

After a bit of googling.
Asda/Walmart has a 1.2 million square foot warehouse and Tesco has a slightly smaller one at 0.36 million square foot.
So Washington might be a garden shed in comparison.

[mmeman]

Why do people from Leeds and Newcastle want to see the place shut? Reduce the competition? If MME closed how much more will Newcastle be able to charge airlines/users as the airlines won't have the bargaining tool of if you we wont pay your charges, we will move down the road.. And it does happen because a couple of year back Flybe were about to start operating to Belfast from MME and Newcastle airport heard about it and persuaded Flybe not to introduce flights from MME and increase the flight from Newcastle.. don't know how - reduced landing fees etc? Even Emirates looked round MME before flying from Newcastle..won't be good for the passenger neither with reduced competition.

I never expect the place to be as busy as Newcastle or Leeds, but there is the demand for a few flights a week to Palma, Alicante, Tenerife and Turkey etc. The Ryanair flights to Alicante were very popular and that is fact, over 90% load factor each month, of course there is the yield which no one will know, but with a 90% load factor they must be making some money.

There are still quite a few movements each day with business jets, Cobham, light aircraft, training and military movements, so while the passenger side is struggling the place certainly isn't dead.

Plus I don't want to fly from Newcastle or Leeds.. just doesn't make it easy for a weekend away with kids etc, but if there were flights from 5 minutes down the road then I would be tempted..

[ncleflights]

mmeman - I don't think its a case of people at Leeds or Newcastle wanting DTV to close but simply realising that in the North East of England insufficient traffic exists to support three International Airports.

You also point out demand exists for places like Palma, Alicante, Tenerife etc however if this was the case then DTV would have flights to all the destinations you named. The simple fact is however that these routes have been tried and proved unsuccessful as they were not sufficiently supported by the folks in Teeside and while you may not like to fly from Newcastle or Leeds for whatever reason the rest of local population prefer to fly from airports other than DTV.

I would also like to point out, and I am not sure where you got this information from, but at no point were Emirates considering flights from DTV:ugh:

[N707ZS]

ncleflights. The current Tenerife and Alicante flights are hard to get seats on.
And from someone from very reliable inside DTV, Emirates staff were deffinitely at DTV.

On a diffrent subject how big is the dept at Newcastle the last we herd on here they had a loan for nearly 500 million.

[GAXLN]

N707ZS If Emirates staff have ever been to MME it will only have been as a possible diversion airport. What is this dept I keep reading about? Do you mean debt? Can there be three international airports in LBA, MME & NCL. The market suggests the answer is no as the butter becomes spread far too thinly on the bread.

[ILS32]

mmeman - I don't think its a case of people at Leeds or Newcastle wanting DTV to close but simply realizing that in the North East of England insufficient traffic exists to support three International Airports.

I agree with ncleflight nobody wants to see the demise of DTV.It,s not just posters from Leeds or Newcastle but you will see posters from various parts of the country who cannot see a viable prospect of DTV continuing as it is.You only have to look at the number of airports within 1 to 2 hours of travel from each other.You have Leeds,Newcastle,Humberside Doncaster and Manchester. We all see that we are heading for a recession, the jobless figure is reaching the 2.5 million mark.It is just not possible to sustain the number of Regional Airports in this country.Only the most profitable ones will continue or the ones with deep pockets.Leeds is one of the lucky ones it continues to attract passengers and new destinations so does Newcastle. They will continue expanding.Unfortunately it's regrettable but DTV does not look like one of them.

[david.crosby]

This is a blessing for MME I beleive. With Peel gone it could mean we get people in who want to make an airport and not just mess about. I beleive someone will buy it, according to peel they have had a few people wanting to look into MME. We need a company with a proven track record. Maybe the Manchester Airport Group or Stobart Airports Ltd. All we need to do is find an airline who want to fly. We had Flyglobespan until they went bust and they were doing fine from our airport, Ryanair wanted to give MME more flights but that was stopped due to the PFF,
Also a lot of our local mps are fighting for it. With James Wharton and Jenny Chapman speaking to the PM about it. Lets hope the future of MME is saved and becomes bright

[N707ZS]

GAXLN, sorry late night posting, it should of been debt.

On a different subject. On a Sunday Eastern operates the DTVA Aberdeen flight with the Southampton aircraft but they don't sell seats for the leg which comes from Southampton and goes back to Southampton, does anyone know why?

[UL730]

Any truth in the rumour that these guys (http://www.banksgroup.co.uk/banks-group/banks-renewables/) are talking to Peel about a potential use for DTVA?

[andrewmcharlton]

Some very seriously delusional daydreaming going on here. Emirates at MME? Supermarkets moving in? Stobarts buying the airfield? 3x daily to Southend?

For goodness sake......

It isn't making money, has it's worst pax numbers (and continuing to slide) since the airport was but 10 years old etc etc

The airl;ines that were there either pulled the routes or went bust. That should tell you something. There is no anti-MME sentiment from NCL or LBA I suspect but they are commercial organisations that compete for the same traffic and people are voting with their feet.

With no pax services (if they do go) it is over for MME. The market isn't big enough andthe whole "but I don't want to go an hour up the road" won't sustain anything, you'll just be sitting at home soon. Get real.

[pug]

UK’s Durham Tees Valley Airport in urgent search for new investor and operator | CAPA (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/uks-durham-tees-valley-airport-in-urgent-search-for-new-investor-and-operator-64771)

[highwideandugly]

As has been seen with building societies,banks,travel agents and airlines...once the doubt sets in..then the customer goes elsewhere.I feel this is the big problem now.
Would anyone in their right might risk hard earned cash booking through an airport who,lets face it,its days are numbered?

Im sure KLM Eastern and Cobhams are looking over their shoulders..they dont want to turn up one day and the doors are locked?

My theory is the airport will survive.It will become a private run airfield like Dunsfold and similar were.
Cobhams(buyer?) will import the Hawks from Leeming which will close.The airfield will stop all passenger flights along with the associated costs.It will open 9-5 ish closed at weekends.

Remember a lot of investment is needed even to maintain the current standards.Thr runway is going to need attention soon-the taxyways do now..Stobarts are finding to their cost with Southend that to run an airport takes mega bucks.Why do you think its gone so quiet on the Carlisle development-no will to spend millions only to take fresh flowers to Barra!! So you can discount them.

Interesting times!

[skyman771]

highwideandugly - I think you have more or less summed the situation up i.e. that it will survive as an airfield of sorts, though not in it's present format.
You introduced an interesting point that has been somewhat overlooked in recent postings, that being the current state of repair of the "asset" DTV.
Remember a lot of investment is needed even to maintain the current standards.Thr runway is going to need attention soon-the taxyways do now..
As such any price paid for DTV will have to reflect these concerns, as such maintenance does not come cheap.
mmeman - If MME closed how much more will Newcastle be able to charge airlines/users as the airlines won't have the bargaining tool of if you we wont pay your charges, we will move down the road..
You need to take a reality check !, DTV was NEVER a bargaining tool for airlines operating out of other local airports as it simply could not offer the infrastructure or facilities. IF DTV were to close, then it will simply be normal business as usual up & down the road!, no more or less pax as there will be none to migrate.
It needs to be noted that airlines in considering new services, carry out significant market resaerch, and undoubtedly take into account at what is happening at neighbouring airfields, but it is possibly public perception as to how they saw DTV, that was a historical issue that was too hard to overcome.
As I said on many occasions then any problem can be addressed with the right competent management team backed with sufficient financial resource, sadly DTV was seriously lacking in both!

[davidjohnson6]

Stats out from the CAA for November. 13,493 passengers for the month (down 12.2% compared to Nov-10) or 189,997 for the last 12 month rolling period (down 15.6%).

56.5% of passengers were on the Amsterdam route, which indicates how influential KLM may be in any future purchase of Peel Airport Ltd's stake in MME

[airhumberside]

Why do you think its gone so quiet on the Carlisle development
Planning issues

[jetstar.8]

DTVA`s future does not have to be pasengers
It could be aircraft maintance, painting ,frieight, scrapping and buisness flights
many of the above would take a lot of investment and a lot of cooparation from the airport managment if any companys were prepared to move there operations here :D

jetstar.8

[LGS6753]

Kemble, aka Cotswold Airport is thriving on such a diet. Aircraft storage (several 747s, lots of Avro RJ/146s), parting-out, training, club activity, etc make it far more viable than a few charters to the med.

[N707ZS]

A330 sat on stand 1 / 2 right now having a bit of work before return to leasor.

[mmeman]

Positive news from Thomson, both Alicante and Tenerife available to book for 2012/13. Tenerife passenger figures up 10% on last November.

[JKKne]

TOM website is only showing PMI (operated by Iberworld)

Doesn't show ALC or Tenerife

Edit...Yes it does actually! Oops!

As long as there's a passenger terminal there in Winter 2012. Can't say I'd be booking with the fear of a switch to LBA, MAN or NCL

[NorthSouth]

LGS:Kemble, aka Cotswold Airport is thriving on such a diet. Aircraft storage (several 747s, lots of Avro RJ/146s), parting-out, training, club activity, etc make it far more viable than a few charters to the medIf DTVA could achieve that, through new ownership, we would be moving in a very positive direction. Kemble's a wonderful place because of its diversity. The fear is that in the current climate the roll-call of bidders for DTVA will be the usual litany of private equity companies and associated asset-strippers and cost-cutters whose only interest is the ability to sell the asset on rather than encouraging the great variety which is general aviation. The core is there at DTVA - Cobham, the flying schools etc. It just takes someone who (a) has the money and (b) is interested in promoting aviation to make it a reality.

NS

[DTVAirport]

jetstar.8 LGS6753 & NorthSouth - well said and the people I have spoken to feel this is the more likely outcome. Of course it's just their opinions but it seems to be the more common opinion.

As it happens, I've been made aware of two interested parties, obviously I'm not able to reveal them on here but sufficient is it to say that if you had to choose the interested parties yourself, these two names would be very high on the list.

Having said that, despite having no doubt the information I've received is genuine, I'll believe it when I see it since I can't imagine Peel being easy to negotiate with.

[SWBKCB]

So if the 'Kemble' solution seems the most viable, presumably that means no scheduled services which isn't going to please the local politicians/industrialists.

On another point, how many of MME's services are now provided centrally by Peel, rather than locally at MME i.e. an additional cost to the present position for any new operator?

[DTVAirport]

There's branding too, we'll likely get a new logo and website due to commonality with DSA/LPL. Would be the ideal opportunity to revert back to Teesside Airport

[nearly50]

How about a Cobham - Jet2 - Multiflight joint group buying Teesside. Then Jet2 maintenance in the existing hangers, Multiflight training and Cobham with the Leeming Hawks moving in as well. Simples......! :ok:

[SWBKCB]

A pint of what he's having!

[peel]

swbkcb := The services centrally provided by the group aren't given free, the airport are still charged (no discount). So no extra cost and in some of the cases any new owners will be able to save money on the present set up.

[N707ZS]

If you look back at my previous post DTV and Doncaster pay Liverpool something like 80 to 90,000 for the information desk service. You could pay three local people and still save a few quid!

Extra, hand back the 75% but I bet they won't give up the South side.

[DTVAirport]

The South side hasn't been part of the airport for months, if not years now, that's owned by Peel Holdings and not Peel Airports who are selling the airport.

This will be a major stumbling block for any potential sale of DTVA, I suspect at least one of the interested parties I mentioned earlier will be put off by this.

[Robert-Ryan]

Looks like Jet2 could be taking advantage of the unstable situation at DTVA - they're sending two aircraft to DTVA tomorrow morning to do some training, the aircraft in question are G-CELB and G-CELI.

To put it another way - visible over Darlington/Stockton/Middlesbrough tomorrow morning will be two great big flying advertisements reading "Jet2 Yorkshire" and "Jet2 Manchester".

Despite needing all the business it can get, perhaps DTVA should have thought twice before accepting these flights? Having said that, if it's Peel that decide the flights as opposed to someone at DTVA, they probably don't care anymore.

[N707ZS]

On the other hand it might make people look up and think, ah we still have an airport look at all those planes, your average public probably won't think it's the same two going round and round.

And of course its making money!

[skyman771]

If you look back at my previous post DTV and Doncaster pay Liverpool something like 80 to 90,000 for the information desk service. You could pay three local people and still save a few quid!

What information was needed other than to respond in the majority of cases "sorry there is no flight available" ?, for further isupport one could always suggest "Google"….;) Seriously though this appears to be a substantial amount of money for what was in reality “not a lot”.

[SWBKCB]

Rallying call to safeguard Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Advertiser Series) (http://www.theadvertiserseries.co.uk/news/9428425.Rallying_call_to_safeguard_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airpor t/)

[paarmo]

Now where was I? Oh yes lots of private emails etc and clandestine meetings ( 5/11/11 )
I didn't know what it was all about but we do now.
Housing on the site? 2 chances fat and no. There would be huge problems getting sewage away from the site which would result in the main sewers being upgraded to an enormous size which would mean Middleton St George being cut off from the world for 6/9 months. The cost implications are also enormous. Factor in the location of the site which is not a commute to anywhere of any great size, the current available housing stock in Teesside and South Duham and the land bank of the major house builder's both still operating and also bankrupt together with the parlous state of the economy and also the fact that the site is a featureless piece of flat land surrounded by more flat land then housing is a non starter for at least the next 15/20yrs.
Light industrial units ? There are enough of these within 30 minutes of the airport to keep that part of the market going for the next 15/20 years again.
Major industrial complex? Not unless Nissan want to relocate.
This leaves you with either an airport or a piece of scrubland.
Jet2 in cooperation with Stobart? It might just work. Jet 2 are based at an inaccessible airport with terrible weather and Stobart cannot get planning permission at Carlisle. Teesport is absolutely booming at the moment and Stobart may see a link into there with perishable goods as he already ships for Tesco and they have a decent import presence there.If Cobham have any spare cash then they might just be tempted to buy in to a joint venture.
Whenever Thomson's have run decent destinations at a decent price they have always reaped the rewards from Teesside.A joint venture may look at this and their own interests and think that it might be the start of something very profitable and stategic for them.

[N707ZS]

There is only a line of fence over there no roads nothing else new. Plenty of burried rubbish and old asbestos sheds.

I thought the tower was part of the airfield as I presume it is still full of emergency water.

I know the hospital area and hangar 5 are privately owned.

[JSCL]

I've heard on the grapevine that there's two confirmed interested parties with a few that have merely enquired.

Of the two, one is an existing airport operator (sort of) and the other a maintenance and a/c painting company.

[highwideandugly]

Is it me or am I seeing a lot of wishful thinking here?

Cant beleive PWC would allow any delicate information to slip out?

Who ever takes over the airfield has two choices.Run it privately or run it as is now.

The first option in my opinion is the most likely-would cost the least and would mean limited ancillary services and opening hours--fully operational airfields costs lots of money to run !

Second option run as now..but who has the financial clout to run a loss making airport (probably for the foreseeable future)and for what/whose benefit ??

Going to be a long and drawn out affair methinks.

[JSCL]

Hardly, highwideandugly.

If you know people in the know with accurate information, I trust the source of the detail re two interested parties.

[highwideandugly]

JSCL well we will see i suppose ?

Sorry i forgot a third option...close it.

My money on number 1 and probably a conglomerate(is that the word ?) of the councils and Cobhams.

In the real world there is just not the money out there to develop and expand an airport which lets face it apart from a couple of years has been pretty much a white elephant.

[JSCL]

My view would actually be an extension to your point of Councils + Cobham - Councils, Cobham + the a/c maintenance + livery company.

[DTVAirport]

JSCL, of the two interested parties you mentioned, I believe the first one is one of the two I've been informed of, the second one however is new to me.

Doubt Cobham are buying the airfield as all the Falcons moved out to Bournemouth over the last couple of days, might be a temporary xmas thing but they've never done it before - worrying?!

[ncleflights]

paarmo - your last post contradicts itself, you state that no demand exists for housing or industrial units in the area. Later on in the same post you state that Teeside is booming which would in indicate demand for both housing and industrial units. Thats normally the case in an area that is booming:ugh:

Tesco/Stobbart is a complete non starter as Teeside is nowhere near any Tesco distribution centre.

We need to admit demand simply does not exist as present for a airport at Teeside at the moment, if it did then this debate would not be going on. The only future lies in a private run airfield with limited opening times, with the associated limited services this would bring.

Lets move on and leave the running of an International airport to your neighbours North and South of you that know what they are doing

[N707ZS]

ncleflights, you are very wrong about TESCO they have a 360,000 sq ft distribution centre at Teesport which is served by Stobbart.

Stobbart also hauls the freight from the ASDA depot.

[SWBKCB]

Paarmo, good start then it all goes Pete Tong...

Housing on the site? 2 chances fat and no. There would be huge problems getting sewage away from the site which would result in the main sewers being upgraded to an enormous size which would mean Middleton St George being cut off from the world for 6/9 months. The cost implications are also enormous. Factor in the location of the site which is not a commute to anywhere of any great size, the current available housing stock in Teesside and South Duham and the land bank of the major house builder's both still operating and also bankrupt together with the parlous state of the economy and also the fact that the site is a featureless piece of flat land surrounded by more flat land then housing is a non starter for at least the next 15/20yrs.
Light industrial units ? There are enough of these within 30 minutes of the airport to keep that part of the market going for the next 15/20 years again.
Major industrial complex? Not unless Nissan want to relocate.
This leaves you with either an airport or a piece of scrubland.

Agreed - but unfortunately airlines can't seem to make money out of it as an airport?

Jet2 in cooperation with Stobart? It might just work. Jet 2 are based at an inaccessible airport with terrible weather and Stobart cannot get planning permission at Carlisle.

Really? What's in it for them? Jet2 already have substantial bases just to the North and to the South. If LBA is that inaccessible and the weather that bad, why do far more airlines and passengers chose it over MME? And if they really feel these problems are that bad isn't DSA a better alternative? (next time, why not chuck in the short runway as well?!)

Teesport is absolutely booming at the moment and Stobart may see a link into there with perishable goods as he already ships for Tesco and they have a decent import presence there.

Does ANYBODY believe Stobarts speil about using CAX to distribute perishable goods etc to the North, Scotland etc - they want CAX for a road freight distribution centre and the rest is just window dressing - if they don't get it they move to the North West (Widnes, Warrington) before the North East.

If Cobham have any spare cash then they might just be tempted to buy in to a joint venture.

Again - why would they? Cost of relocating to somewhere like HUY/DSA/PIK as against any potential investment?

Whenever Thomson's have run decent destinations at a decent price they have always reaped the rewards from Teesside.A joint venture may look at this and their own interests and think that it might be the start of something very profitable and stategic for them.

What's the most flights a week TOM have ever run out of MME - if they had reaped the rewards wouldn't they have more now? Also goes against there current policy of retrenching into the major airports and reducing presence at the minor regionals (and I'll not even mention COV and DSA...)

[ncleflights]

N707ZS - sorry I am not wrong I should have phrased my post better to DTV is nowhere near a Fresh Food Tesco Distribution centre.

Teesport is primarily a non food operation. See Tescos own info on Teesport when it opened

"The £130m Teesport Distribution Centre is the retailer’s first purpose-built import storage facility. It will replace its existing non-food distribution centre in Coventry"

Need I point out supermarkets do not need to air freight in non perishable goods if they did the overheads would soon put them out of business!!!

[highwideandugly]

DTV makes an interesting point re. the removal of the Falcons.

Surely someone from FRL reads this and can give us all an insight as to why(for the first time ever?) they have all gone to bournemouth for the Xmas period?

Im sure there is a simple explanation.........the cynics amongst us may say that they dont want their aircraft stranded if a sudden airfield closure comes along?

Or maybe after the fiasco of the last couple of years with the state of the airfield and the deicing problems,they are playing safe....

or maybe its just a maintenance issue and we are all now paranoid!

Please someone...put us out of our misery..

[Hipennine]

"Need I point out supermarkets do not need to air freight in non perishable goods if they did the overheads would soon put them out of business!!"

As I have already pointed out previously, because the shipping lines are slow steaming and reducing frequencies, and product life cycles on fashion and some electricals are so short, the UK inbound supply chains are increasingly turning to air transport to cover the demand spikes whenever a particular product line goes up in demand. This would potentially fit exactly with the non-food DC's at Teesport. However, it is doubtful whether there would be sufficient volume demand for a dedicated long haul freighter into MME - more likely into EMA then road to the Teesport DC's.

[HH6702]

Been reading a report that GBRF have won a contract to operate a rail freight service from southampton to cleveland on behalf of ASDA.

the service will carry 100,000 tones of food for asda which would have gone by road....

could they turn the airport into a major depot with lots of rail sidings for ASDA.

info from the RAIL NEWS...

[SWBKCB]

could they turn the airport into a major depot with lots of rail sidings for ASDA.

info from the RAIL NEWS...

Why would you chose DTVA for this? Wouldn't somewhere that wouldn't require the investment needed be better?

[HH6702]

im not saying they would but have any of us thought of the airport turning into a distrubtion centre for the north east.

We already have the railway line just need some sidings down
We have the A19 and A1 motoways

DTV to be a GA airport and the buildings to be turned into a big ware house for storage??

its just an idea as many on here think its still going to be an airport and going to improve with big airlines to base

NOTE:: manston airport been put up for sale tonight FLYBE pulls out also....

That now 2 uk airports up for sale at the same time

[DTVAirport]

Just another thought regarding Cobham, I think if they'd moved out for good they would have taken the Calibration division with them.

[OldManJoe]

The Falcons have gone to Bournemouth as they can't trust DTVA to cope with any inclement weather. Snow/ice, clearing/treating and aircraft de-icing are a concern as it cost Cobham last year due to the inabilities of the airport.
The King Air's will move out as well until Cobham are satisfied they can operate from DTVA without any delays.

Falcons are on a 1 hour response time, so delays due to inadequate facilities will cost dearly. Quick response is also needed for the Calibrator King Air's. If an nav aid goes tech and needs recalibrating after repairs they need to be able to launch fairly quickly.

[McGoonagall]

Been reading a report that GBRF have won a contract to operate a rail freight service from southampton to cleveland on behalf of ASDA.

the service will carry 100,000 tones of food for asda which would have gone by road....

could they turn the airport into a major depot with lots of rail sidings for ASDA.

A few problems with this. Firstly, if it is 100000 tonnes per year this equates to around 3 trains a week and building freight sidings is a hellishly expensive thing to do. Secondly, any train arriving from the south would have to reverse at Darlington if arriving there or Thornaby if arriving via Yarm. Thirdly, the loading gauge between Eaglescliffe and Darlington is classed as W8 so needs smaller boxes on the wagons that could be used to access Teesport, which in common with all other routes in the area is classed W9 allowing the standard 45' long 9'6" high box.

I suspect that the trains will run up the ECML to Northallerton then go via Yarm to Teesport where sidings and facilities for unloading already exist.

[SWBKCB]

NOTE:: manston airport been put up for sale tonight FLYBE pulls out also....

That now 2 uk airports up for sale at the same time

What's the source for Manston being up for sale - can find plenty of comment about Flybe pulling the EDI route, but nothing about the airport being for sale?

[ncleflights]

Hipennine - I have been an analyst in the aviation business for 26 years and can assure you no major supermarket chain uses airfreight to transport fashion items or electrical goods into the UK an any sizeable quantities. Its simply too expensive to do so when the major supermarkets are trying to drive costs down.

The shipping lines are only reducing frequency and on a small scale simply because the container ships used are getting bigger.

The DTV thread appears to have become totally taken over by fantasy posters coming up with ridiculous and absurd solutions to DTVs problems.

The simple fact is we have too many regional airports in the UK. DTV will not be the last to go in the next few years

Whatever the future has for DTV I would be very surprised if any future owner kept it operating as a commercial airport. The locals don't support it and the airlines don't want to use it without both these key elements you can not succeed.

[Hipennine]

ncleflights, withot getting into willy waving, but I have been involved for 35 years as a senior practioner in supply chain management, and I can assure you that the multiples, and some of their suppliers are using airfreight for the purposes I have stated. The shipping lines are consolidating because volumes are down, and are slow steaming to reduce fuel consumption. The slow steaming on its own would take up the increased vessel capacities, but the reality is the vessels are taking longer, and the absolute number of box slots actually steaming has been reduced.

Nevertheless, none of the above is remotely likely to be a saviour for MME.

[skyman771]

....The King Air's will move out as well until Cobham are satisfied they can operate from DTVA without any delays.
Taking this comment at face value, then presumably such asurances can realistically now only be given by a new owner....not a good situaution, also this presumably further reduces the day to day revenue generated by DTV, placing even more pressure on the current situation.
Note I too have & continue to be totally dismissive of any projected use related to freight / distribution expansion.
It totally amazes me that all & sundry have developed total amnesia over all the previous grand schemes marketed as a prime area for DTV to expand and develop, when all that happened is that those who promoted such idea's were found to be doing nothing more than talking out of their own backsides:8.

[SWBKCB]

From the Northern Echo

Constituency MP Phil Wilson met with union members and airport director Steve Gill this morning following Peel Airport Limited’s announcement it would sell its 75 per cent share in the airport.

As a result of the meetings, Mr Wilson will ask local enterprise partnership Tees Valley Unlimited to build an economic case for the airport. He is also arranging a cross-party meeting of local MPs with transport minister Theresa Villiers.

Peel Airports Limited announced it was selling its share because the airport no longer fit its portfolio plans. However, it said it was confident of finding a new buyer which would continue the airport as a going concern.

Its confidence has pleased union GMB, whose members include traffic control, fuel depot workers, baggage handlers and security staff. There are 100 employees at the airport, but another 550 indirect jobs.

Shop steward Gail Johnson said: “We are obviously disappointed (by the sale) but we’ve had a very positive meeting today. The future could be very positive. I believe that Peel Airports hopes it can sell the airport. The vibes are very positive. The airport staff’s committment is second to none. They have fought for this airport and will remain committed to it.”

Mr Wilson said: “I met with Steve Gill today to let him know that, as the MP for the airport, I will work with him and support Peel Airports’ search for a buyer who will keep the airport open. We have already heard from one airline this week talking about the need for a sustainable future for the Durham Tees Valley Airport. There is also a wider issue here about what else can be done to secure the airport’s future. I have written to the aviation minister, Theresa Villiers MP, asking for a cross-party meeting with her to meeting with Tees Valley MPs to discuss what else can be done. I have also written today to my parliamentary colleagues with Teesside seats asking them to meet in the New Year to start a campaign in favour of the sale and I call on the Local Enterprise Partnership to help build an economic case for the airport.”

Tees Valley Unlimited’s managing director Stephen Catchpole said: “The airport continues to be a major asset and TVU will continue to work with Peel Airports Limited and any subsequent owner to maximise the benefit it brings to the area.”

[highwideandugly]

well its no great suprise as DTV predicted it..the Flight calibration unit have decamped to newcastle for the xmas period.Credit dtv movements

the reason..they cant rely upon the airport remaining open due inclement weather..obviously no snow clearing planned(rewind 12 months)
not sure what KL and easten think of this?

do Peel reemburse cobhams? or do cobhams just take a hit?:mad:
also also noticed the airport is restricted opening hours until january..once it was agreat diversion airport( 2 BA B747s and the whole of LBA winter traffic) but who anyone in their right minds go there now??:ugh:

[Northbound A1]

At least most people who have contritbuted here have one thing in common. Every man and his dog agrees that Peel have no interest in seeing DTV survive with the way the have ran it for the last few years.

Was it head office's motto to run it down and make it unattractive to most airlines? I don't suppose we will ever know?

One thing the MP's and councils should do is get together as one group with somebody actually attending meetings to monitor what is going on, and actually having a say on the airports running?

From where I am sitting nobody from the minority share holding group has had any type of say in the running of DTV.

One post mentions no new road on the south side. The road that was needed was the one that was built, and runs straight from the A66, which is a very good link road from the A19 and A1. The location of DTV is not far away from one of the main east - west hubs which ever way you look at it.

Peel thought they had got away with another Sheffield. They have been busy though, changing one company to another, and moving shares around.

Out of interest how much is the cobham contract worth? Would the BMI compo Peel are expeciting pay for that, if required?

Re the post about the water tower land and the emergency water supply. The water and electricity mains were moved years ago when the new DTV access road was put in on the other side I believe.

Could it be they wanted the whole site for other needs? Business Park or what ever? but I dont think aviation crossed their mind.

Lets hope someone with deep pockets can be tempted to buy DTV and build it up like NCL and LBA who are doing well. At least DTV doesnt have the weather problems that LBA sometimes has being on a big hill.

Come on MP's ask for an investigation into all the murky dealings that have been going on, and where is the BMI compo money?

Good luck to all the people left at the airport, and lets hope the local press can remain interested in the campaign to keep it open. :ok:

[SWBKCB]

What DTVA needs is an ambitious new start-up, say a premium service airline aiming to link key business destinations such as LCY, etc - where's Victor when you need him?

[Fosters]

Post on another forum suggests that that Cobham aircraft may decamp to Leeming in the New Year. It suggests that this may to be uncertainity around ability to keep runway open/de-icing etc rather than any other more permanent problem.

Fosters

[Parsnip]

Northbound A1
The road to the south side you refer to is the proposed road from the A67 across wilkinsons farm to the southern boundary of the "business park" It was a ransom strip purchased on Peels behalf by the now defunct RDA, if anyone wants to build on the south side they need to do a deal on that bit of land which I think will still be owned by the taxpayer.
Wally was right when he flogged CFS and was right about tin sheds too, which was always Peels plan, develop a business park for ostensibly aviation related development.Pity the recession got in the way
I give the airport 6 to 9 months . No-one is likely to come to the rescue in the current climate :(

[DTVAirport]

Cobham have made no secret of the fact they don't want to be seen coming out or going into a military airfield so I can't see them moving to Leeming, especially since Leeming's future isn't all that much better than DTVAs.

What worries me is despite them moving out for Winter, if they find operating out of Bournemouth / Newcastle is easier than they anticipated, what's to stop them from not coming back?

[Sir George Cayley]

Take the wider picture on the state of the UK's airports. There is EDI, STN and Manston up for sale. Rumours abound about 2 more and then there was Plymouth which closed this week, Woodford and Filton too.

There is only so much money with investors and clearly the return on capital employed will drive decision making.

THere some sites which even given away are money pits and others that scrape along.

Given that Ferovial fought tooth and nail to hang onto the two airports they have to sell, there must be healthy returns to be had.

This will put a premium on them so can you see heavy hitters even noticing Middleton St George? And if either an underfunded or over geared bidder came along would they pass due diligence?

I know this is all doom and gloom and little comfort that there'll be others, but this is the reality that a severe recession bordering on a Depression brings.

SGC

[SWBKCB]

Anybody got a source for Manston being up for sale?

[mmeman]

Cobham Falcons - Are we sure they have moved away because of the weather? RAF not training until 3rd January 2012 anyway and no sign of any cold weather in the next week. :confused:

[Mike Tee]

Please may I ask a couple of questions with regard to the Cobham Falcons. Although I know that they have been operating from Teesside for a number of years now in support of the RAF there does in my mind seem to be a vauge veil of secrecy surounding their presence and operations at Teesside, well as far as the General Public goes at least. My immediate neighbours seem to think they are either Holiday Flights or Biz Jets as they pass over our area on a daily basis. Has there ever been a "Feature" on Cobham's in any of the local Rags and their "valuable" contribution both to the Airport's viability and indeed our national security. Secondly, just what do the Falcons do after they roar over Stockton and out over the coast to return a couple of hours later in what must be a very expensive operation. Also do other NATO air forces have a similar arrangement with a "civilian" operator ?.
Apologies if this post side tracks the main content of this thread.

[SWBKCB]

I don't think there's a veil of secrecy - they certainly don't hide what they do (see link below)

Cobham plc :: Mission Systems, Aviation Services (http://www.cobham.com/about-cobham/mission-systems/about-us/aviation-services.aspx)

Number of other NATO forces have similar relationships with civilian firms - certainly the Dutch (Skyline aviation) and the Germans (GFD)

[Mike Tee]

Thanks for the link SWBKCB although it dosen't tell us much, only that Cobham DTV provides Warfare Training which is presumably something to do with those underwing pods carried by the Falcons. Which my neighbour thinks are "petrol tanks" !!. Now if someone in the know could give us a typical "mission profile" as to just what happens during one of those 2 hour flights that would be nice.

[highwideandugly]

Interesting point re the falcons..although there is no flying as the RAF are on holiday! What is the point of moving them all to Bournemoiuth? Interesting to see when/if they come back.
Obviously they had massive disruption last year re the snow and cant afford to take the commercial risk again? Im sure after the events of the last 12 months the snow/ice clearing capabilities of the airport have been somewhat diminshed? Bet KLM and Eastern are watching the skies with interest.

Also do you think cobhams have come to some financial agreement with DTV..who is actually paying for the detachment down south? Im sure that wont be part of the contract..or are Cobs absorbing!! Not a good working/financial arrangement me thinks.
Also i see according to DTV movements the calibrator has gone to Newcastle for the the xmas period... interesting few months ahead.:confused:

[N707ZS]

Falcons it might be the wind gusting 45 plus and varying, not to good if you are not parked into wind. Also the ground staff might all be on holiday for the two weeks, we seem to have forgotten about the engineers and office staff. Staff at DTV might be on holiday whilst the staff at Bournmouth have many other things to do and might not close.

Another question is , who owns hangar 360 Cobham or the airport?

[SWBKCB]

Local airports 'to double their capacity in next 40 years’ - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/8977992/Local-airports-to-double-their-capacity-in-next-40-years.html)

The number passing through Teesside airport is projected to increase from three million to 10 million a year

From 3 million?

Another gem - Significant expansion is also expected at Plymouth, which is likely to see its passenger numbers quadruple to four million a year by 2050.

Somebody doesn't know their @rse from their elbow.

Quality fact checking from the journo as well...

[peel]

The falcons are safely tucked up in the hangar at DTVA. Wish people would get their facts right before posting on here. :ugh:

[SWBKCB]

The normal reliable DTVM site has the following departure information

19/12
G-FRAU Falcon 20 AWAY Aspirin 3 1315 To Bournemouth
G-FRAH Falcon 20 AWAY Aspirin 2 1325 To Bournemouth
G-FRAS Falcon 20 AWAY Aspirin 1 1325 To Bournemouth

21/12
G-FRAP Falcon 20 AWAY Rushton 99 0850 To Bournemouth
G-FRAW Falcon 20 AWAY Rushton 92 0853 To Bournemouth

and arrival details at BOH are listed on the following link:

Bournemouth Airport Spotters - SBS Reports December 2011 (http://www.bournemouthairportspotters.com/page8.htm)

Would be interested in details of when they came back if they are hangared at MME.

[SWBKCB]

Latest I can find on the baby money is a ruling on 06/05/2010 by the Court of Appeal which said that the damages should be the money the Airport would have received had baby remained and operated its normal services for the remaining eight years of the contract.

It went on to say that "if the parties can’t agree on the level of damages, the Court will determine the sum itself in a further hearing". The original judgement had been that the contract had been too uncertain to allow damages to be determined, as did not contain any details to show many times each aircraft had to fly each day or to which destinations.

Interestingly, the case seems to have been brought by Durham Tees Valley Airport Limited, described as part of the Peel Airports Group.

[onion]

The roofs to the hangars were meant to be repaired around the time Peel took the airport over, my understanding is that money had been set aside by the airport itself at the time of the change of ownership! Peel as I understand then used the cash toward the resurfacing of aprons and taxiways and replacing lights! All of which were needed when they took over. Basically this is part of the fabled £x million they were to invest in the airport!

As a point of the stupidity of Peel, the taxiway they resurfaced, soon after taking over the airport, was 15m wide, they only resurfaced the middle 10m! This when the whole lot really needed it!

To be honest I want to see a Public Enquiry on the airport. You may think me stupid but the miss managament of MME goes back to the Local Authoruty ownership and continues through to Peel and as a tax payer ok not directly but indirectly of the local authorities that had control of the airport I want to know what happened to the money and what guarantees they had on the operation of the airport.

[papa oscar]

Peel, all the Falcons are at Bournemouth. This was decided after last years issues with the inability of the management to keep the airport operational last winter. The King Air which is on standby for Heathrow was positioned to Newcastle for the same reasons.
All aircraft are planned to return to DTVA in the New Year to continue to operate from DTVA as normal.

[highwideandugly]

Interested to know where you obtained your facts from? You seemed so sure?

as noted elsewhere..Falcons in Bournemouth returning soon?
calibrator also returning after Xmas detachment in Newcastle

still wondering how this effects the contracts though!!

[dwlpl]

Local airports 'to double their capacity in next 40 years’ - Telegraph

Another gem -

Somebody doesn't know their @rse from their elbow.

Quality fact checking from the journo as well...

Has the link for this DTI report been found?

[SWBKCB]

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/uk-aviation-forecasts-2011/uk-aviation-forecasts.pdf

[dwlpl]

Thanks for that.

Where in that document does it say DTV and its 3 million passengers?

[Lancelot37]

I think that Steve Gibson has more sense than to buy a pup. :8

[SWBKCB]

I think that Steve Gibson has more sense than to buy a pup.

Insert your own football related punch line here....

Seriously though, there seems to be an awful lot of 'community leaders' banging on about how vital DTVA is who seem quite happy for somebody else take the hit in the pocket as there aren't any suggestions as to how it can make any money!

[skyman771]

Onion To be honest I want to see a Public Enquiry on the airport
This isn't going to happen!!, as in reality what is there to be achieved, throwing ever more money to reach the conclusion that Peel were inept in running an airport, whether through their Airports subsidiary, or simply in appointing / endorsing those that held the senior management positions at DTV on acquisition?
From what I can see there has not been any misappropriation of public funds, it is not an offence for a company on acquiring another to review all assets and liabilities, and following this revise future planning. So long as the funds were used for a relevant purpose, such as in your explanation that funds for hangar repairs were used for alternate essential site maintenance purposes.
However if you are suggesting that such activities were in effect paid for twice by the injection of public funds (unlikely!), or that subsequent public funds simply disappeared (even more unlikely!!) then you should consider your options, otherwise it is simply best, however difficult, to try and accept that those trusted with the job of running MME/DTV over the years were simply inept and at times clueless.
There has clearly been much rhetoric emanating from all sides over the years as to what has been expended on DTV, maybe it would be appropriate to run through the various statements dealing with £x million that was to be spent on whatever. No doubt you will find that what actually was spent (altogether completely different!) is completely accounted for.
There is a chain of thought that irrespective as to how ever large a sum of money was made available, it would never have been sufficient:ugh:

[SWBKCB]

could it be that the owners just wanted to run it into the ground, and so build on it when nobody wanted the pup?

So is the demand for brown field building sites that great on Teesside? Supply that short?

I bet if they were offered a very good rate they would be falling over themselves to locate to MME.

So spend even more money (make even larger losses) trying to attract operators who show absolutely no inclination to come? Like who?

[Jamesair]

Just maybe....turning DTV into a General Aviation airfield would be a viable option for some company. With NCL and LBA in such close proximity, attracting any meaningful scheduled operations will always prove difficult. Military and charter operations could remain so long as the technical operating criteria are maintained.

Lets hope the solution is realised early in 2012.

[highwideandugly]

Noticed over the Xmas period and up to today the airport has had restricted hours of opening. Cost wise this may be the way to go? Spread the staffing out while retaing a hard core of suitably qualified until the up turn comes?

It must be more cost effective than long hours with nothing happening at all?

just a thought

[NorthSouth]

I wish people would see the bigger picture, based on the long-term trends. It's not that long ago that the vast majority of airports in the UK were owned either by local authorities, or the Board of Trade, or the state-owned British Airports Authority. The reason airports were owned by those bodies is that it was recognised that (a) these facilities are public infrastructure assets, whose continued operation is essential to the local/regional/national economy and society, and (b) private capital is not an appropriate vehicle for owning/operating airports because they will look for returns which are unlikely to be reliably delivered and will cut costs and restrict investment in order to meet their profit requirements. DTVA is relatively unusual in still having an (albeit reduced) local authority stake. But local authorities have no money, will have even less in future, and simply cannot afford to support high-maintenance assets such as airports.

The net result is, surely, that because there is no public sector support left for airports, if they're "not big enough to succeed", then they will fail.

If you don't agree with the way things have developed, then you should be supporting a big shift back from private to public resources. It's all down to public imagination and will.

NS

[Robert-Ryan]

I'm not sure what will happen in terms of passenger services from DTVA, I do believe demand does exist, but my understanding is all interested parties in negotiations with Peel want the airport for some form of engineering.

I would imagine we'll hear something as early as this week now the hols are over, I have it on good authority a deal is quite close.

[SWBKCB]

See from the DTVM website that the Cobham's are returning.

[paarmo]

Not returning but returned!!!!!! Oh ye of little faith. The end of April/beginning of May could be interesting. It really depends on who wins the auction. Too late for the summer season but just in time for the Winter programme I would hope.
Interesting and exciting times ahead I would suggest.

[Robert-Ryan]

Notice only five Falcons returned, I understand this is permanent as both DTVA and Bournemouth have each lost an aircraft due partly to government cuts.

Might be wrong but 80% sure.

[davidjohnson6]

NorthSouth - you make a good point about public versus private ownership of infrastructure assets. However demographics change - e.g. local Govt sometimes having to close schools and health facilities because of local population change - either decline or perhaps because of an population whose average age changes. Air transport only really became available to the masses about 30 years ago, so we have seen very few closures in the past. Why are the fortunes of MME any different from other local social infrastructure ?

[NorthSouth]

I agree, they're not. And the Middlesbrough area has suffered especially badly in the last few years in terms of plant closures etc. Public spending cuts on top of that makes the situation particularly bleak.

NS

[SWBKCB]

Open Letter from Private Aircraft Owners Ltd:

Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/letters/9455599.Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport/)


Story from Northern Echo - including comment from Cobhams:

Durham Tees Valley Airport (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9455246.Airport____must_rid_itself_of_passenger_burden___/)

[skyman771]

Paarmo
Not returning but returned!!!!!! Oh ye of little faith.
What you really should be saying is "Oh ye of little business knowledge", as with most arrangements then contracts are entered into which amongst many other clauses & conditions have those dealing specifically with cancellation & periods of notice. This is even before condidering those employed by Cobham.
I for one didn't even think that those who suggested/claimed that the company had upped sticks & moved on, deserved a response !!
In reality the situation is probably in reverse, Cobhams have a strong desire to retain an oprating base at DTV, and are looking to assurances that the contract that they have entered into with Peel can be fulfilled. Otherwise the commercial view is that in a closure of DTV, they would be looking into their contract to see as to what compensation they could seek from Peel +/or any new owner!!

[SWBKCB]

My understanding is that the expensive bit is operating as an airport (i.e. available for public transport flights in large aircraft such as used by KLM) - I would imagine if somebody buys the field for maintenance purposes these are the costs they would look to eliminate.

Suppose the question is can MME provide what these types of operation want at a better price than you can get elsewhere (hangar space, skilled staff?)

Doubt whether the price Peel are asking will be in the public domain and if the Canadians referred to are Vancouver - see my post 1525

Just to clarify the position with Vancouver Airport Services - they bought a 65 per cent share in Peel Airports Limited, with the Peel Group retaining a 35 per cent share in Peel Airports Limited and a presence on the board.

[Northbound A1]

Thanks SWBKCB, it appears to have been sliced and diced doesnt it!
Its like a spiders web of shares. Re the vancouver lot (canadians), are they selling their pile of shares as well? as they havent said much about what they intend to do?

It looks to me as though Peel have already gained from the sale of the majority of their shares to Vancouver, and are now trying to off load the rest after realising the shopping centre would never happen.

How much did Peel get from the sale of the shares to Vancouver, (wasnt it last year?) and who now owns the south side if it doesnt belong to the airport which someone mentioned?

I would be suprised if anybody would want to share DTV with more than one partner. Its not looking good is it :hmm:

The councils should just make a compulsory purchase order on the place and buy the lot back for the £500k which Peel paid and take back the south side which appears to have been given away!

The BMI compensation money should go to supporting the airport further, and send Peel packing.

Maybe the press can get a quote off Vancouver as to what they intend to do??

[Jamesair]

I don't think the local Authorities would get the BMI money, depends entirely on which entity brought the legal action, I think it was probably Peel.

In these straightened financial times, would the Council or the majority of Council Tax payers want the Council to spend money on what is often viewed as a "white elephant"?

I might be wrong of course.

[mmeteesside]

Which bit don't people get about Peel Airports??

Peel Airports Ltd own 75% of DTVA. Peel Airports Ltd is owned 65% by Vancouver Airport Services and 35% by Peel Holdings.

[highwideandugly]

so really ...using those sums its VAS who want to sell up? as they are the majority shareholder?:confused:

[SWBKCB]

The BMI case was brought by Durham Tees Valley Airport Limited, part of the Peel Airports Group. Durham Tees Valley Airport Limited is owned 75% by Peel Airports Group and 25% by the Local Authorities (or it was 25% before the dilution exercise - presumably with the sale this isn't going ahead?). As stated above the Peel Airports Group is owned 65% by Vancouver Airport Services (now Vantage Airport Group) and 35% by Peel Holdings.

As the main business of Peel is property development (e.g. their behind the MediaCity development in Salford as well as many others), I would imagine their better able to deal with any compulsory purchase order type approach than your average pig farmer...

[skyman771]

Northbound A1
Please try and stop using this forum for your rants as you are making yourself look ridiculous. Your business knowledge appears around nil, and your extrapolation of facts to form your own conclusions is equally embarrassing.
On the positive side then "mmeteesside" has set out the ownership sums quite clearly.
SWBKCBor it was 25% before the dilution exercise - presumably with the sale this isn't going ahead?
Are you sure ????:suspect:
It IS Peel Airports Limited "Peel" who wish to dispose of their 75% stake, this is why there was an earlier press article as to why Peel were looking to place pressure on the remaining 25% shareholders (the 6 surrounding Local Authorities) by placing a “Dilution Notice” as to their shareholding presumably in an attempt to call their bluff. Conveniently then one presumes (I have not read any press to the contrary), the Local authority indicated that they are "unable" to contribute the required £4.3 million injection of further funds. Such an action would nullify any criticism of Peel by the Local Authorities, who when faced with a choice of "put up or shut up" can do very little to criticize Peels action in choosing to place the airfield up for sale.
The dilution notice would if not responded to then reduce the Local Authorities shareholding down from 25% to 10.8%!!
N.b. before all go shouting “Foul” the idea of a dilution notice is to ensure that all shareholders have a right to retain their interest in a company when it is deemed appropriate to make a cash call, in doing the maths, then for DTV to be required to inject £4.3M, then Peel would inject £12.9M. The clever part is of course as to where the Local Authorities would need to raise “Cash” it is potentially possible that Peel would be able to carry out “Internal reclassification” of existing assets from within the Group to support their contribution.
I am unclear as to whether this notice was effected by Peel prior to placing DTV up for sale, though IF it were, then Peel would effectively now own 89.2% of DTV !, though to be fair even 100% of nothing is nothing !!
In conclusion you may now all be way off the mark in that it may be that Peel may now own 89.2% of DTV !!

[DB5]

This link to a report for a Darlington Council Cabinet meeting on 6th December 2011 might just clarify some, or all, of the comments made by Skyman771 above.
I'll leave you to do the maths.

http://www.darlington.gov.uk/PublicMinutes/Cabinet/December%206%202011/Supp%20Item%201.pdf

(If the link doesn't work for any reason go to the Darlington BC website and type Durham Tees Valley Airport into the search box)

[SWBKCB]

My reading of this is that the dilution hasn't yet taken place (i.e. "PAL have indicated their intention to serve a formal share conversion notice") but don't know how the announcement of the sale affects this process

[Northbound A1]

At least I raised the topic skyman1771, and thanks to the other posters relpies I have been given some interesting answers, instead of a rant which nearly sent me to sleep! :rolleyes:

Take a deep breath and keep the personal abuse to yourself as you are making yourself look ridiculus! Oh thats your word!

Back to DTV. So its VAS who are really pulling the strings at DTV, or maybe I'll be told I've got it wrong again. Ah well we cant all be a clever :mad:

Regarding the promise of a further injection of £12m by Peel if the councils found their part. I expect that will be similar to the £20m promised by Peel when they got the site for £500k. No doubt I've got that wrong as well but I only fly for a living so cant be too clever ;)

[Northbound A1]

Almost forgot, does anybody know who now owns the south side which has a nice new fence between airside ops and the south?

Someone mentioned it had been sold and is no longer part of the airport?
Was it One North East who paid for the new fence expecting it become a cargo centre?

[SWBKCB]

I think the dilution exercise was asking the LA's to put up cash to match what Peel had already spent rather than future expenditure.

[N707ZS]

Southside is "supposedly" now owned by Peel holdings. If you fish around on the Peel web site for "Skylink International Business Park"
you can see the proposed development plans for the the permitted aviation related industry which was agreed at the planning stage.
A local farmer told me Peel are looking into moving the 3ft gas pipe which crosses some of the land, that would cost millions!

[Mr Mac]

If you look at the passenger numbers over the last few years from DTV and the loss incurred by Peel / Vancouver it would appear to be that Peel / Vancouver are paying passengers £20 each approx to use the airport !. This is not sustainable for any company and in a recession even worse. :sad:

[UL730]

I note that Department for Business has announced land and property that it wishes to dispose of -originally acquired by One North East and now transferred to the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA)

Durham Tees Valley Airport (land)

Land lying North East of Brocks Farm, Eaglescliffe

Land East side of Carters Lane, Eaglescliffe

Land West side of Carters Lne, Eaglescliffe

Oak Tree Farm, Middleton St George (North side access road not part of JV)

[skyman771]

Further comment in respect of Peel's actions :-
SWBKCB My reading of this is that the dilution hasn't yet taken place (i.e. "PAL have indicated their intention to serve a formal share conversion notice") but don't know how the announcement of the sale affects this process Having read the council's minute of 6th December, then this only seems to endorse my assumptions in respect of the dilution. The fact that it was mooted that it could take place "within 7 days", and that the Council were to formally reject any further cash injection, would in any event suggest that it may have already taken place, and will have taken place at such time the airport is disposed of. This makes business sense as it will ensure that Peel obtain a larger share of any net proceeds arising from the eventual sale of the airfield.
Within the minutes it did endorse my point that Peel Airports Limited "PAL" have indeed availed themselves of non cash funding PAL have therefore notified the Councils of the intention to serve a formal share conversion notice regarding the funding it considers it has provided to DTVA in the period up to 31 October, 2010.
Nortbound A1, apologies for any earlier offence taken, which was not intended, sometimes a thick skin is required, anyhow you note that the Southside is no longer part of DTVA. On the basis that you are correct, it is of course a verifiable fact for anyone who is prepared to visit the Land Registry web site and pay the £19.95, which should also provide the sale price.
Again on the basis that “PAL” have done their ”job” properly then it is very likely that the South Side has been sold, conveniently the purchaser would likely be Peel Holdings, who irrespective of the sale price would again no doubt fund the cost through an intercompany account which could easily be negated through management charges from Peel Holdings, though even Holdings would presumably have to suffer the stamp duty !
The conclusion of all of this is that DTVA has indeed been cleaned up for a disposal, that part which is not physically divisible i.e. the minimum land boundary that PAL necessarily have had to retain intact being put up for sale, whereas all else has been stripped out.
What I do feel is worthy of comment in all of this is that it seems unlikely that the Local Authourities would have been unaware of any land disposal, and as such it may be interesting to note any comments in earlier committee minutes...public record...?
IF the land has been sold AND in the unlikely the local authorities were either unaware or appeared to do nothing at that time then perhaps there is a valid issue to be addressed. …. Northbound A1- take note.......

[highwideandugly]

Now where is Sherlock Holmes when you need him!!

the waters are indeed murky(and I dont mean the Tees).

No doubt all to be revealed very soon but in the meantime its probably one of the more interestinmg threads on pprune!!

Interesting that each passenger is costing Peel/vas around £20 each.

It begs the question...which organisation in their right mind and in the current economic climate would take the airport on in its present state...err non!!

the future can only be restricted private opening or closure.

Take your pick...

[paarmo]

Not being a financial wizard I have done a small amount of research ( it's a nightmare ) into stock dilution. From that scan I think that the way a firm dilutes the shares is by voting at a board meeting. With Peel owning 75% of the shares they would obviously be able to vote this through with no problems. The story is though that they now only own some 35% of the shares after VAS bought 65% of Peel Airports. Presumably VAS would not want to put more money into the black hole which is MME so they would vote against any such proposal in concert with the Local Authorities.
If this is not the case then do VAS actually exist or are they just a fancy website like our friend Mr Nigeria and if they do exist then did they actually go through with the purchase of that part of the Airports Division that they are said to own?
VAS have been strangely quiet since they are supposed to have taken over the airport. In fact mute is the word that comes to mind.

[SWBKCB]

Paarmo - suggest you go and re-read previous posts.

do VAS actually exist or are they just a fancy website like our friend Mr Nigeria and if they do exist then did they actually go through with the purchase of that part of the Airports Division that they are said to own?
VAS have been strangely quiet since they are supposed to have taken over the airport.

VAS are a sizeable airport operator not some fly-by-night outfit. They are the majority share holders in Peel Airports, so when Peel Airports speak it's fair to assume that they are saying what VAS want them to say - so VAS haven't been mute. Peel Airports = VAS!

From that scan I think that the way a firm dilutes the shares is by voting at a board meeting. With Peel owning 75% of the shares they would obviously be able to vote this through with no problems.

My understanding is that Peel as the majority shareholders can propose the share dilution but it is then up to the minority shareholders to either accept the dilution or put up the cash to maintain their level of share holdings.

The story is though that they now only own some 35% of the shares after VAS bought 65% of Peel Airports. Presumably VAS would not want to put more money into the black hole which is MME so they would vote against any such proposal in concert with the Local Authorities.

As previously stated - VAS are the majority shareholders in Peel Airports so wouldn't be voting against themselves... Peel Airports = VAS!

[mercurydancer]

What is very curious is that 2003-4, the airport was sold off for a very small amount of cash..£500,000. That is a very small amount for a whole airport. At that time, house prices and land prices were at the highest ever known, yet the airport was sold for less than a Yarm High Street house? If the word corruption has not been spoken by now, it must be at this point.

[pug]

That is a very small amount for a whole airport. At that time, house prices and land prices were at the highest ever known, yet the airport was sold for less than a Yarm High Street house? If the word corruption has not been spoken by now, it must be at this point

Yes but did Peel also take on any outstanding debt?

[onion]

I may be wrong but it was my understanding the airport didn't have any debt when 'sold'.
I was also under the impression that it was a lease of 35 years, not a complete sale! Also the low purchase/lease fee wasalso probably due to the promised investment. The problem was that the local councils couldn't raise that sort of cash that was promised.

[SWBKCB]

Big word "corruption" - from the Northern Echo in early 2003 (my underlining):



Peel Holdings are believed to have offered to pay £500,000 for 75 per cent of the shares owned by the five local authorities who own Teesside Airport. It will also contribute £100,000 towards the costs of doing the deal. The report says the cost of transferring the airport could be as high as £500,000 - meaning the authorities may end up receiving £100,000 between them. Following the sale, Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, Stockton, Redcar and Cleveland and Durham county/Darlington councils will retain a 25 per cent share in the airport, which will eventually fall to 12 per cent. A statement from the five shareholding councils said "In reality it will result in a massive investment, running into many millions of pounds over the next five years. As was made clear by the shareholders, when the choice of Peel Airports as the 'preferred bidder' to become a strategic partner in the airport was announced in January, they believe that this is the most viable option for securing the levels of investment needed for the key projects which will enable the airport to maximise its own potential - and contribute to the regeneration of the communities its serves. The interest of the shareholders in negotiating the agreement with Peel is to maximise investment in the long-term future of the airport - not to generate short-term returns for themselves." John Williams, the leader of Darlington Borough Council, said Peel had a good track record, having already turned around the fortunes of Liverpool Airport. He said the deal was the only way forward. "Anyone who uses the airport can see that it urgently needs major investment, The £20m private sector investment will give Teesside Airport a future. Without this, it will be stuck in a cycle of decline which will eventually lead to its closure." Councillor David Walsh, leader of Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council, and a member of airport committee, said: "In the present situation, it is the only way the airport can get in the investment that it needs to prosper and grow. It has to be a calculated risk. There was no way that the local authorities would have the money at their disposal to turn it into an airport fit for the coming decades. But we are getting £20m from Peel, who are to remodel the terminal and apron, providing more slots for aircraft, and attracting retailers into the departure lounge. This money will go hand in hand with cash from One NorthEast which is going into the infrastructure and providing better access to the airport." Hugh Lang, airport managing director, said the Peel development would provide everything the public sector cannot fund - such as buildings and land - and provide long-term investment. "We are trying to identify areas of investment so that we can hit the ground running as soon as everything is signed." he said. A spokesman from Peel Airports said: "We totally endorse the statement of the shareholders." The company has promised to refurbish the main terminal building and construct a new parallel taxiway for aircraft serving a cargo depot. It will also work with One NorthEast to create a 400,000 sq ft business park on a 25-acre site, complete with its own access road, and has said it would be happy to offer each of the local authority shareholders a seat on the airport's board.

[Northbound A1]

SWBKCB, thanks for the Northern Echo piece, it makes very interesting reading on what was promised by Peel. Didn't Hugh go off on other Peel ventures and NHS boards? What happened to Mr Williams from Darlington council, and Mr Walsh (Redcar council) who was a member on the airport commitee? Did they write the contract as they seemed to be very supportive of Peel didnt they?

£500K was a very small amount to pay! I wonder if there is any small print which allows for the airport to be taken back by the councils, as the promised investment didn't materialise? Cargo centre ha, the taxi way didnt even happen!

I liked the quip by Hugh...."so we can hit the ground running"! He didnt hang around either did he!

Out of interest who from the various councils currently sit on the Airport board?

[SWBKCB]

There's an assumption there that the £20m hasn't been spent - the initial purchase price seems so low because it was recognised that the airport needed investment to survive, i.e. that the new owner would have to spend as the LA's didn't have the money to do so.

There is also an acceptance in the original report that if the investment was made then the LA's shareholding would be reduced (i.e. 'diluted')

As the dilution proposal wasn't laughed off by at least Darlington's legal department, it seems that they at least are happy that Peel have made the contractually required investment (I know, I can't see where either.)

[P330]

I know KLM loads average c60% throughout the week and I also know the Saturday afternoon flight is one of the weakest of the week, but even I was surprised to hear of just 15 departing passengers on KL1538 this Saturday afternoon. Not good.

[PBO]

Local rumour that Virgin are interested in DTV, any truth in it or heard by others?

[SWBKCB]

Hasn't this been around for a while? And the obvious question is - for what?

[roverman]

A maintenance base? Thay have more wide-bodies including A380s on the way and little space for such activities at Heathrow. I see heavy maintenance as a potential outlet for smaller airfields with decent runways and space for hangarage. Airports like MME, BLK, and DCS should be looking to attract this sort of high skills employer and stop chasing the stag weekend passenger. It will be of benefit to the UK as a whole.

[SWBKCB]

Perhaps for maintenance of the Concorde fleet (remember that?) :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, back in the real world...

[Skipness One Echo]

VS already have B744 hangars at both LHR and LGW with the A380 order filed under "unlikely" to be fulfilled. Surely they could do business with someone like PIK without having to actually buy an airport to put up a hanger.

[TSR2]

Airports like MME, BLK, and DCS should be looking to attract this sort of high skills employer

I quite agree and if Blackpool had any ambition they could have purchased the old Pontins site for a maintenance facility and maintained trams as well. Never mind, dream on.

[davidjohnson6]

Provisional CAA stats out for December 2011.
Passengers for Dec 2011 were 12,322, up 2.4% compared to Dec 2010. I remember that Heathrow closed due to snow in Dec 2010, but can't remember what happened to MME

Annual passengers for 2011 were 190,284, down 15.3% compared to 2010

As a reference, 1972 saw 162,000 passengers, while 1973 saw 212,000 passengers.
Passenger Figures (http://www.dtvmovements.co.uk/Info/PAX_figs.htm)

[SWBKCB]

Just to restate previous postings - Peel Airport are the major shareholders in DTVA. VAS are the major shareholders in Peel Airports.

Anything going to DTVA will go to Peel Airports, anything going to Peel Airports will go to VAS.

I'd be very surprised if IAG haven't taken account of the potential liability of the DTVA/bmibaby case in any deal.

[Northbound A1]

An angry response from the airport consultative committee.

Anger after Durham Tees Valley Airport's owners snub meeting (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9479371.Anger_after_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_s_owners_snub _meeting/)

[VentureGo]

Considering should Tees Valley Airport close, which seems more & more likely (Especially for passenger services), wouldn't the best alternative be to provide better, faster and more comfortable surface links to Newcastle Airport via Coach & Rail. In particular from the East of the region; Midllesbrough & Stockton are not served well,(in terms of Comfort & Speed) although the cost in providing better rail rolling stock, interlining with the Metro to Newcastle Airport and regular Direct Airport Coach services, would be far less than those costs associated in attempting recue of a failing Tees Airport. There may be further benefits in this approach, attracting more services to the North East's wider region, with a larger catchment population. Thoughts!

[VentureGo]

Jet2 reg G-CELS flying repeated loops/circuits & landing? at DTV Mid-day today Flight no EXS300T - ? (Flightradar24.com)

[skyman771]

NorthboundA1 I don't know what your "source" is but I would not put too much reliance on this.
Even IF it were true that BMI compensation was "on the horizon" it should not have any impact on any sale of DTV. There are many ways that any forthcoming income can be "ring fenced" by Peel Airports Ltd (PAL).
What you should do is read a copy of the latest published accounts of "Durham Tees Valley Airport Limited " for the APE 31 March 2011, obtainable for £1 from Companies House. These will provide you with an insight as to what has actually being going on. Short of having some relevant accountancy experience you may struggle with some of the intercompany transactions, which are now subject to a very complex group structure creating "smoke & mirrors" at every oportunity.
There has as such been substantial intercompany transactions which interestingly enough reflects an amount of £24 Million owing to "parent and fellow subsidiary undertakings" i.e. "should" funds be received by DTVA, then there is every justifiaction necessary to pay such sums of money straight out of DTVA and into PAL or some other remote entity.
Whilst before getting too carried away it should be noted that the accounts do not insofar as I noted, contain any reference to any potential sum due in respect of an outstanding court case. If I am correct & a large material sum "did appear" then if I were a shareholder then the first question I'd address would be one of disclosure to the Auditors.
A more pragmatic view may be that upon appraising these accounts, to form the opinion that DTVA Limited is a hopeless "basket" case. An impairment review of the company's assets in the previous year (required by VAS) resulted in an operating loss for APE March 2010 of £37.8 Million, whilst the operating loss was down to a more managable £1.3 Million in 2011, there is nothing positive to take.
However if one's curiosity is stimulated by these figures then something may be gleened in the obtaining of the earlier years accounts for DTVA, (obtainable from the same source) as they may give some insight as to how / where the valuation placed on "Land , Buidings and Assets in the course of construction of £25.5 Million at April 2010 was arrived at :E:E:E

[Northbound A1]

Skyman, thank you for the figures. The post has picked up again.
The land is after all what Peel have been after all along ;) the request for funds from the councils was just the big stick to keep them in check.
If and I agree its a big IF a buyer is found to operate it as a passenger venue, how much of the land will the new operator be purchasing?
I only ask this as with all the smoke and mirrors of Peel selling shares off to VAS etc, the valuable south side land (cargo centre area) would appear to be still in the hands of peel plc the parent company, after any airport sale!
No doubt the plans have already been drawn up for the buildings whatever form they make take, especially as the empire were looking into moving the big gas pipe? Did any of the farms which are up for sale find a buyer?

A good pic of the ex DTV D.O. (grass cutter) telling the DTV director it was "THIS BIG" refering to the big cat seen roaming the field in this article ;)
Durham Tees Valley Airport boss speaks out - Local News - News - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2012/01/19/durham-tees-valley-airport-boss-speaks-out-84229-30156098/)

[sunshine79]

Venturego, it is a training flight. My friend was doing this flight on Monday.

[N707ZS]

Jet2 reg G-CELS flying repeated loops:E

[skyman771]

Northbound A1 The land is after all what Peel have been after all along
So you say, but having not viewed earlier years accounts, then there should presumaby be evidence of any property disposals in the fixed asset notes of such publications if your assumptions are to be ratified.......
As for myself, then I remain to be convinced.:\

[sunshine79]

Jet2 reg G-CELS flying repeated loops

Yeah, LS have been training their new recruits how to loop-the-loop over Cleveland, lol

[VentureGo]

Yeah - Guess this was the reason! Thanks for confirmation.

[Northbound A1]

Skyman, I wonder if the ex airport staff at Sheffield are convinced by Peels motives :bored:

Was the DTV south side land gifted to the Peel parent company before the Peel company sold most of their shares to VAS.

If it was gifted there probably wont be any details at Companies House?

If I'm correct in my understanding of the present share and land ownership, Peel will be still sitting on a very valuable plot of land (south side) if the airport shares are sold or they just lock the doors.

Its looking more like the Darlington FC fiasco, with shares here and there, a separate landlord, and not to mention the council!

[Hipennine]

IMHO "gifting" of the land would be in law, a significant balance sheet event, and therefore reportable, and potentially a criminal offence if it wasn't. The tax implications of gifting company assets are huge.

Of interest is the fact that between y/e march 09 and march 10, the loss went from £3.9m to £37.9m, with a coincident reduction in tangible fixed asset of £32m. Anybody now what that was about ? (nb y/e March 11, loss was back to £1m bt.)

[SWBKCB]

Engage brain before opening mouth

MP calls for return of Teesside to Heathrow air route - Local News - News - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2012/01/20/mp-calls-for-return-of-teesside-to-heathrow-air-route-84229-30158681/)

[VentureGo]

Consider: If Tees Valley Airport should close, which seems more & more likely (Especially for passenger services), wouldn't the best alternative be to provide better, faster and more comfortable surface links to Newcastle International Airport via Coach & Rail. In particular from the East of the region; Middlesbrough & Stockton are not presntly served well,(in terms of Comfort & Speed) although the cost in providing better rail rolling stock, interlining with the Metro to Newcastle Airport and regular Direct Airport Coach services, would be far less than those costs associated in attempting recue of a failing Teesside Airport. There may be further benefits in this approach, attracting more airlines services to the North East's wider region, with a larger catchment population.
Both Airports receive significant support from councils & development agencies - Surely concentrating all efforts and monies into Newcastle with better, low cost & convenient links to Teesside (only 42 miles-to Stockton) would better serve our whole region.

"Synergy - Defined as: Two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable" - or 2+2=6!

– I’m Sure LBA will be only too ready to promote from the South of the region! (70 Miles Away)

[andrewmcharlton]

VentureGo - Is there a particular requirement to duplicate postings?

[N707ZS]

He must be in a loop again!

[Northbound A1]

Could this be the nail in the coffin for DTV and a few other regional aiports if it takes place?

Government shake-up could heap further gloom on regional airports (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9478988.Government_shake_up_could_heap_further_gloom_on_regi onal_airports/)

"With the new Bill and further regulations, are we ultimately getting to the stage where more regional airports will close because of the regulations that are coming down the line?"
The Bill will transfer the £5m annual cost for airport security from the department for transport (Dft) to airports and, ultimately, to air passengers.

[skyman771]

Hipennine IMHO "gifting" of the land would be in law, a significant balance sheet event, and therefore reportable, and potentially a criminal offence if it wasn't. The tax implications of gifting company assets are huge.

You are absolutely correct, "Northbound A1" take note:ugh:, & as such as said, IF there were a disposal by transfer to another entity, sale or otherwise it should show up in earlier years financial statements of DTVA Ltd.
Also - Northbound A1 -If I'm correct in my understanding of the present share and land ownership, Peel will be still sitting on a very valuable plot of land (south side) if the airport shares are sold or they just lock the doors.
From the above then the issue seems fairly clear, any land owned by DTVA at the time of the Peel acquisition still vests with DTVA, which is 75% owned by "Peel-VAS", though conveniently their shareholding may increase as & when the share dilution is completed. Thus on disposal of the assets of DTVA on a disposal / breakup, Peel would stand to gain a larger percentage of the proceeds of any assets sold. However as in any event the company is indebted through inter company loans etc. to the Peel group, then the local authorities will not receive any consideration from any disposal in any event:ugh:
Northbound A1 you continue to be obsessed with Peel/Land on the south side, though I fail to see as to where you are going, other that to express your "sour grapes" that Peel has in a business sense put one over on the minority shareholders.
What you should really concern yourself about is to why & upon what terms that the local authorities agreed to sell 75% of DTVA to Peel in the first instance, without, as it appears, from what I can see, the necessary formal contractual arrangements in place to ensure that Peel actually "invested" £20M capital into the airport, rather than it appears to allow such sums, justifiable or not, to be set off against Peel Holdings ongoing losses, backed with presumably ?,the security of airport land. In such a situation then such land would pass to the Peel group of company's on any default triggered by say airport closure or whatever.
Unfortunately this is business, I really suggest that UNLESS you have some actual facts that you are prepared to publish on this forum, that support your concerns, then unfortunately there is no other issue to be addressed, save that the people of Teesside now find themselves presented with a scenario where they are likely to find themselves without the privilege of a local airport.:uhoh:

[andrewmcharlton]

Instead of being obsessed with mythical £20m and Peel etc perhaps, as Skyman alludes, you should wag the finger at the local authorities for an utter failure to operate in a commercial world and failure to adequately represent their constituents.

It's all a bit academic now so demanding enquiries and witch hunts isn't going to make an iota of difference to the fact that without PAX there are no flights and without flights there are no PAX, a self fulfilling prophecy which seems to be getting ever closer to becoming reality.

The big picture is there are too many airports chasing the market and tragically unless there is some serious re-invention DTV is going to be squashed by poor management, fate, the economy, competition and a multitude of other factors. Survival of the fittest....

[skyman771]

The points are taken from what I've either heard or seen while stood looking at the cracked MME tarmac while airside.....thats the side of the fence you need a badge for
My last comment on this subject, why the h*ll would I want a badge !??:ugh: The only time I ever go near an airport is as a travelling passenger.
I'd love to assume that there are some who have a "badge" that precludes the need to pass through various security checks, though the converstions I have had with the pilots I know clearly indicate that your "badge" counts for absolutely nothing in this sense, save the occasional "fast track" which you as habitual users are more than welcome:*
Unfortunately your badge won't even count for this privilege if DTVA closes, hopefully though you will have the relevant contacts & experience to relocate your flying career up the road or where ever. I am also very aware there are many not as fortunate who do not possess the mobility and oportunity to assist their employment chances.

[NorthSouth]

AMC:you should wag the finger at the local authorities for an utter failure to operate in a commercial worldLet's get this right. Local authorities don't operate in a commercial world. That's because...they're not commercial organisations! If you have a beef about "failure to operate in a commercial world" then surely it's with Peel - oh, unless you accept that DTVA is not a commercial operation and needs some other form of support.
The big picture is there are too many airports chasing the marketNow you're getting somewhere. Putting the two things together, we now live in an Animal Farm world where "public sector bad, private sector good" and government prevents itself and other public authorities from being effective because it's determined that the profit motive is the only determinant of social usefulness. If you want a world like this, by all means vote for it. But don't delude yourselves that the provision and maintenance of airport infrastructure is a given in that dog-eat-dog world.
NS

[N707ZS]

Tenerife flights still seem to be full, shame they cannot find a 757.

And a couple of diversions were actually accepted tonight!

[Parsnip]

well said Skyman, there are quite a number of people with "badges" who will find it very hard to get employment when Teesside Airport closes. Ive watched this thread for years and usually got rubbished when I ventured the view that Peel bought a 320 acre development site for £500K purely because they know that eventually there will be a nice fat profit turned when its covered with tin sheds, bricks and mortar whatever. It will happen, it was always the plan, long term maybe but the plan nevertheless. Im sorry for the employees they deserve better

[Northbound A1]

Internet works down here in the sandpit.
Parsnip has it one.

When they lock those sliding doors I can just see the various public figures spouting about how they tried to make Peel do the right thing but were powerless! :rolleyes:

Certain individuals have made a quid or two out of it all by giving Peel the place for 500k :mad:

Even I doubt there will be another badge maker around when I need another mug shot taken at DTV.

No sign of the 2 interested buyers who were mentioned then?

[highwideandugly]

financil year figures will be available soon...usually march/april time? cant see any joy there ?

as said earlier no business in there right mind would want to take on a proven failing entity which is DTV.Why throw good money after. bad.
the infrastucture is too far gone.Runway is in need of attention,taxyways inneed of attention.New rules re security and payments.No airlines prepared to take any risks.No or little will to provide incentives to start up airlines and lets face it no passengers!!

it can only survive 9-5 privately with no passenger expense.At least the region would have some employment.

its really no big deal to have no passenger services..pleanty of other cities/towns are in the same boat..lets face it . Leeds/manchester and newcastle can easily support the 190K passengers.Would the teesseide area actually miss it..all it is bringing is bad publicity to an area which needs it like a hole in the tees.

[LTNman]

Maybe the council’s big mistake was actually selling the airport. At Luton the airport is still owned by the council but is leased as a concession and is run by a Spanish company. That company has to invest in the airport so it is win win for the council as someone else spends the money and the council cream off a fee for each passenger that investment attracts. If that was done instead of selling it Teeside could be a different place today.

By selling Tee-side the council have now lost control and an asset for the area which could be lost forever. Could they not see the value of the land? £500,000 for that much land could make Peel a fortune if sold for development.

[SWBKCB]

Is the Luton example that great, I thought I'd read on the LTN thread that development there is somewhat blighted because of the uncertainty as the end of the lease approaches?

And what makes the land at DTVA so precious if there is no airport - as I've stated before, is Teesside short of brownfield development sites? I would have thought any developer would prefer to have the airport there as a lever to use with the LA's in terms of getting planning permission etc etc ('We need to develop the land to subsidise the loss making airport')

[SWBKCB]

Council chiefs accuse airport owners of broken promises (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/archive/2012/01/28/News%3A/9498944.Council_chiefs_accuse_airport_owners_of_broken_promi ses/)


Interesting article that includes this phrase:

Peel Airports bosses are expected to decide in days whether to continue offering the business for sale or to call in administrators :eek:

[highwideandugly]

another slant...what would happen then? does business continue as normal or does the CAA PUT restrictions on?
What about insurance..public liability etc?

what do klm/eastern do? what do cobham/frl do? me thinks its off to bournemouth again.
with the cold weather forecast will dtv deice or snow clear? me thinks not.

do the locks go on the doors? Its Darlo all over again,the end is finally nigh? :{

[OldManJoe]

Think Coventry!!! No airfield licence holder - CAA NOTAM's the place closed and nothing can arrive or depart.

If the Administrators are called in, it saves Peel paying redundancy money to the staff and any clauses in any contracts are null and void.

[Robert-Ryan]

It would also make sense for any interested parties to wait for Peel to put the facility into administration, then they could buy it for a £1 or some other stupid amount, thus getting it cheap and without the debt/liabilities etc.

I do believe a plan has been put together should no buyers come forward to keep the place minimally-operational.

[DTVAirport]

Rumour has it he's tried to buy it before.

[skyman771]

If in administration, all contracts incl. those of employment canx. Interested party could bid for assets / company wipe out existing debt & put plan to go forward employing essential workers wrt "new plan". This would have to make financial sense to backers i.e. banks etc, but would give new owner(s) full control of a facility supported by new capital.
Difficult for anyone connected with current entity to get formally involved in such a new arrangement, but there are ways & means:E that contol could again vest in a spin off company in future years.
Peel of course would gain substantial CTax relief on write off,s though obviously not ideal. Problem with Admin is that they potentially loose control of destiny of their previous asset. As ever loosers ore the good people of Teesside:ugh:

[Northbound A1]

Peel say they have spent £25m on DTV !!
Have they been digging tunnels, as I can't see what its been spent on :confused:

Owner of Durham Tees Valley Airport responds to council criticisms (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9501855.Owner_of_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_responds_to_coun cil_criticisms/)

[N707ZS]

They spent some money on the runway lights, sub stations and stop bars.

Prefab terminal front. New security gate and an office.

Anyone else.

[LGS6753]

'Investment' doesn't have to be capital.
A company can 'invest' in trading losses if they believe the business can pull through, make a profit and repay the losses. Perhaps this is what Peel are referring to.

[apaul]

That's also my assumption. The airport is losing £10,000 per day at present according to the headlines on today's Look North.

[Hipennine]

It would take nearly 7 years at £10000 per day to burn through £25m.
Presumably the quoted £10k per day is the current levels, and represents the worst position so far. One would assume that the other shareholders (the councils) would have access to more detailed information as to where exactly £25m has been spent (I glanced quickly at the last 5 years accounts, but can't see any evidence of that level of investment in any form (whether as capital or loss-support)).

[david.crosby]

question for you guys, Do you beleive an airline with UK domestic routes would do well at MME. Or would it be a waste of time`

[mccdatabase]

Other than a low cost service to ABZ which might break even (if lucky) you would be wasting both money and time, there is simply not the demand at MME any more, the glory days of the 5 flights a day to LHR are sadly long gone, poor management and marketing of the airport and lack of demand for business flights are to blame

[N707ZS]

David.crosby. If marketed and priced correctly yes.

[skyman771]

Peel say they have spent £25m on DTV !!
"Spent" as I have said incorporates subsidising losses. The company has spent very little in development projects in respect of improving airport facilities.
One needs to note that where Peel introduce figures then they need to be seen as "on paper" only. This is more than demonstrated that things were not as published when an impairment review resulted in them having to reduce the value of the assets of DTVA by some £17Million. Peels accounting policies have even less credibility when Robin Hood is also considered, where I believe they were forced to write off >£60 Million also in a corresponding impairment review :E
However one should consider :-
Alternatively, Peel Airports may try to buy back its shares from Vancouver Airport Services, putting it back in full control.
:E:ENow why would Peel be interested in such an action????:E:E

[LN-KGL]

I think you are all playing the blame game here. The reality is: passengers are missing at MME. Compared with the top year 2006 with 917,963 passengers, only 190,284 passengers flew in 2011 at Durham Tees Valley. That equals to only 20.7% of 2006 level.

A consolation can be that this is an east England problem - negative growth starts in the south at Stansted and ends in the north at Newcastle with the only exception being East Midlands (EMA).

Souce passenger numbers: UK CAA

[Hipennine]

Skyman,

I noticed the impairment review affects of the individual airport companies, but do you know why there was a corresponding increase in the assets of Peel Airports Ltd in the same year ?

[Northbound A1]

I noticed this point made about Peel on another airport thread.
Peel certainly know how to play the system.

EGCA mentions a few details on the Glocestershire Airport thread about what happened at Sheffield Airport:

Quote: "Eventually in around 2002 Peel Airports became involved, at about the time they were developing Doncaster/Finningley, some will say therefore that Peel had little incentive to develop EGSY.
There was also controvesy at the time regarding a 10-year reversionary clause in the original land sale agreement whereby the land could be bought back for a nominal £1 if the airport was shown not to be financially viable.
Anyway as they say, the rest is now history, and as far as I am aware the proposed business park on the site has not (yet) been built." End quote.

Its a case of dejavu with Peel and how they can run rings around local councils who own the various airports.

[andrewmcharlton]

but do you know why there was a corresponding increase in the assets of Peel Airports Ltd in the same year

If a debt was re-assigned within the group or it's subsidiaries an impairment on one means an asset (debt due to be paid) to another, nothing fishy about that.

Its a case of dejavu with Peel and how they can run rings around local councils who own the various airports.

What is it you think they might do with all this industrial land if ops came to an end? There are umpteen vacant sites and we're hardly in a time of plenty where the land has any premium value let alone a value.

[DTVAirport]

Not sure it would matter if they did have several options for the land should the airport close, I've been told in the past that these property developers tend to sit on it for years before doing anything.

[Northbound A1]

While browsing the other Peel airports such as Doncaster/Sheffield, Peel as a group do make interesting reading and seem to be looked on as having no interest in aviation so its not just DTV :suspect:

Maybe with the magnifying glass of the press and MP's now firmly on them they will do the right thing and hand the DTV airport shares back?
That'll be the day :rolleyes:

[andrewmcharlton]

Northbound, are you seriously suggesting Peel have for many years only deliberately tried to run the airport(s) into the ground in order to gain some land grab so that many years hence they might use them for development? They may be many things depending on your view but you seem to have an obsessive view of some big deception.

I assume someone at Peel was Cuban and sent Lee Harvey Oswald to Dallas as well....

[Northbound A1]

Are you suggesting Peel have links with america as well :E

Re the Peel Sheffield council contract which had a clause about what would happen if the airport was not viable, is the same ten year clause included in the Peel DTV contract?

[paarmo]

Durham Tees Valley Airport, secure its future - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/25950/) ???? Not the most dynamic idea but it may be a start.

[pug]

100,000 signatures needed then, I wonder if there are that many people out there who care enough to sign it..

[NorthSouth]

They're asking a Tory government to NATIONALISE a failing regional airport? Yeah that'll work.
NS

[apaul]

That e-petition is certainly economical withe truth. No one could realistically describe the airport in its present state as a vital hub. As for greater flexibility most days passengers have a choice of destinations ranging from A to Z, apart from B to Z.

[VentureGo]

Teeside is only 50 miles from Newcastle Airport (approx. 1 hour by road) Wouldn't time and money better be spent improving links to Newcastle, along with a strong campaign to attract more services to the North East Region as a whole. In comparison it takes about the same commuting time from Central London to Heathrow! I'm sure the whole N.E. Region would benefit from Airport Express Rail & Coach links, and improvements to A1/A696/ Airport road junctions, with more Air routes serving a wider catchment area from Newcastle.
Thoughts!

[mccdatabase]

Teeside is only 50 miles from Newcastle Airport (approx. 1 hour by road) Wouldn't time and money better be spent improving links to Newcastle, along with a strong campaign to attract more services to the North East Region as a whole. In comparison it takes about the same commuting time from Central London to Heathrow! I'm sure the whole N.E. Region would benefit from Airport Express Rail & Coach links, and improvements to A1/A696/ Airport road junctions, with more Air routes serving a wider catchment area from Newcastle.
Thoughts!

1/ No, MME could be a viable airport alongside NCLwith a bit more support from the local population, some Govt intervention and some decent professional management

2/ Learn to spell TeeSSide

[DTVAirport]

Over 80% of the passengers on the first few holiday flights last Summer were Scottish. If that's not proof the airport can be viable nothing is.

[JKKne]

The first few? What about the rest? Did the trend continue?

Is this not just clutching at utter straws? Ah yes, Thomas Cook, we've no local market but we've got some Scots who'll drive down. They'll ignore Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds and Glasgow and come straight to Teesside because its so great.

More like. Flights from Scottish airports and NCL were fully booked or now at premium prices and our cunning north of the border friends decided to book up and fly out to save a pretty penny.

DTV - Edinburgh South

[VentureGo]

Reason is likely due to Scottish School holiday dates are out of kilter, with English Schools, therefore prices would be higher from Scottish airports from early July (Start of their Summer Holidays) - Flights are also more likely to be full due to demand.

[ncleflights]

this thread appears to be moving more and more towards fantasy with every post. It would appear that desperation to keep a failing airport open has clouded most posters minds.

Lets all have a reality check here

epetition - complete fantasy in itself its not 100,000 signatures the airport needs but passengers wanting to use the airport and the evidence is they don't. Even the wording of the actual petition is complete fantasy.

Government intervention - lets get a grip folks no Tory government is going to take over a failing regional airport let alone this government. This current Government is probably the most anti aviation government that this country has ever seen. The best way to support regional airports is to scrap APD.

Regional hub - are we having a complete laugh here, I had to read the comment twice just to make sure I was not day dreaming.

Durham Tees Valley can not be a viable airport alongside Newcastle or Leeds simply due to the fact that the local population simply don't want to use the airport. This fact apart the region is not big enough to support three airports either is Geography or population. Due to its location sandwiched between its two larger competitors DTVs was always going to be the looser.

[DTVAirport]

ncleflights, firstly, if your username is anything to go by, you're completely biased anyway.

Secondly, you're largely correct until your last paragraph - the local population do want to travel from MME, in fact I'd go as far as to say most are screaming out to travel from MME. History has proved several times that when the flights are provided, they are usually full or not far from it.

Finally, if the region isn't big enough to support three airports, how has it managed for the last 46 years?

[anthbower1234]

Gents,


MME Would be the choice if back in 96 you could fly to REU for £394 for a week ALL INC however times are past and EXC as AIH are long gone from MME! NCL has some cracking deals WHY would we fly from MME when only TOM offer deals of over £800 to TFS????:\

[N707ZS]

Why have the TOM TFS flights been fully booked then?

[Ops Guy]

Well said ncleflights.

Alot of people in dream land catching up on this thread.

You've all discussed that the airport requires large amounts of investment to bring the current infrastructure up to standard. The airport is for sale as it obviously doesn't make any money.

With Newcastle to the north and Leeds to the south an hour in either direction it clearly is no longer a viable business in the current economic climate. Airlines are not willing to take risks anymore. With Passenger numbers at an all time low the futures looking bleak.

Being from Newcastle I'm clearly biased but you dont have to be from the north to draw that conclusion on DTV. :ok:

[jabird]

As for greater flexibility most days passengers have a choice of destinations ranging from A to Z, apart from B to Z.

Sad, but true I'm afrail, pmsl :D

If the northeast can't attract serious interest from Ryanair, and most of the other locos are already well represented at NCL, what hope is there? Maybe bmibaby will come in and have a try. :mad::mad::mad:

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but the future isn't bright - and holding a petition is just daft.

What the government might respond to is if local business leaders club their heads together and say - ok, our airport is doomed, but what's this new fangled rail link they are talking of down south? Oh, so it might get to Leeds in 2032? £150m per mile to get it moving, but the stretch between York and Newcastle has been costed at 'just' £41m per mile?

Let's make sure we get ourselves on that, so we don't get passed by.

Learn from what we've seen here in Coventry - local council determined to see us closed down, eventually Thomsonfly did their job for them, AND we've missed out on HS2 too. Council here voted to oppose that too, when they could instead have asked if we could get a spur or a station. For technical reasons, a station serving the Teesside region is much more feasible than one serving Coventry - and you can also stick one up on Durham, which would probably be too small.

That is a campaign that would be worth fighting on two fronts - 1) come here sooner and 2) give us a stop. Look what the Scots are doing too.

I know this is an aviation forum, but if you want better transport links, the future for MME (region) is on the rails, not in the sky.

[OldManJoe]

Just wait till the banks start pulling the plug and calling in the loans. Then we'll see how Newcastle survives. Please remind me how much debt Newcastle is in!!
£320m due in 2013!!!!

[JKKne]

Just wait till the banks start pulling the plug and calling in the loans. Then we'll see how Newcastle survives. Please remind me how much debt Newcastle is in!!
£320m due in 2013!!!



IF that happens Newcastle is in a far better position to be saved than MME. It has a passenger base infrastructure, a wide range of airlines and destinations and is vastly vastly more important to the regions economy when compared to DTV and far more likely to be supported by Govt and have potential buyers and investors.

Sad fact is DTV is irrelevant in the big picture

[N707ZS]

If it's so irrelevent what are we baning on about on here. I am quite surprised this whole thread hasn't been moved to spotters corner by now.

[DTVAirport]

MME is not by any means doomed, there are one million passengers who were flying from MME in 2006 and one million passengers are still here and one million passengers or more still want to fly from MME if they could.

I've said it before, but it is VERY feasible and isn't too much to ask for a seasonal one-aircraft base from the likes of TCX or TOM and 850k+ pax per year.

Even if there was zero potential for the terminal, there is infinite other possibilities on the GA side of things, Newcastle have little or nothing and despite Leeds having Multiflight they don't really do air taxi / private charter so you've got to go to either Edinburgh or Manchester. Then there's the potential for aircraft storage etc. If MME closes it will be down to conspiracy / incompetence and nothing else.

[Robert-Ryan]

When Wizz Air were at MME, they wanted to launch a second route by all accounts - but Peel refused to give them slots/figures/numbers etc for MME and insisted they went to Doncaster instead.

[SWBKCB]

it is VERY feasible and isn't too much to ask for a seasonal one-aircraft base from the likes of TCX or TOM and 850k+ pax per year.

So why aren't they doing it now? Could it be that they wouldn't make any money?

Even if there was zero potential for the terminal, there is infinite other possibilities on the GA side of things, Newcastle have little or nothing and despite Leeds having Multiflight they don't really do air taxi / private charter so you've got to go to either Edinburgh or Manchester.


If there are infinite other possibilities, why isn't it happening?

Then there's the potential for aircraft storage etc.

Potential? So why is nobody exploiting it? What has MME go that Kemble, Lasham, Southend, Bruntingthorpe, Exeter, Manston, Bournemouth, etc don't (apart from infrastructure, skills, etc)?

If MME closes it will be down to conspiracy / incompetence and nothing else.

Really - conspiracy? Can somebody explain how Peel make more money from a disused airport than they would from exploiting a thriving one?

[LTNman]

Really - conspiracy? Can somebody explain how Peel make more money from a disused airport than they would from exploiting a thriving one?

The existing airport is making a loss due to income being less than expenditure. With the airport closed down expenditure falls through the floor so with minimum income from non-aviation businesses based at the airport and rent from a couple of sheep farmers the airport is back in profit.

[SWBKCB]

LTNman - you've answered the question 'how do you make more money from a disused airport than from a loss making one?'

Unfortunately that wasn't the question that I asked.

There seems to be a view on this thread that Peel have deliberately run down MME so that it becomes unviable as an airport so that they could then exploit the land once the airport is closed - nobody has explained why they would do this and how they would make more money than developing the airport and the associated surplus land. It's the airport that gives them a USP over other development sites in the area.

[Parsnip]

SWBKCB
This thread goes on and on does it not. Look back over the previous five years and see the re-iteration of the same old arguments. It seems hard for some people to grasp, but the airport land purchased for buttons is an asset worth lots of money when developed out. Peel didnt make a fist of it as an airport,maybe not deliberately, but they are a development company ffs so sitting on 320 acres of flat ground is a long term investment. It was called Plan B. Are you aware of anywhere else where this amount of real estate is available for the price these guys paid? Thought not.

[Northbound A1]

Parsnip got it in one in his post. :D

Peel have ran rings around the local councils and have form for it.
Any news on the interested buyers who were previously mentioned or have Peel put the price up?

[SWBKCB]

My view all along is that Peel were looking to make money out of developing the surplus land at MME, same way as they have at LPL. It would be a lot easier for them to get what they want out of the LA's in terms of planning etc, if this is tied into a viable MME.

I think they will find (or they should find) it a lot harder to develop the MME land once the airport is shut - it then just becomes another brown field site (again, is Teesside short of these?).

Unfortunately times change, bmiBaby bombed out, Globespan bombed out and now nobody else is interested and the losses have become unsustainable.

Like Onion says - time for plan B. Cut your losses and play the long game.

[ncleflights]

DTVAirport - yes your correct I am biased and must admit that as for ariports go NCL makes DTV look like a garden shed. However if you check my posts you will see that I have on more than one occasion been very critical of management at NCL.

You further go on to state that folks on Teeside are screaming out for flights from DTV have you any evidence? Believe me as an airline analyst for a number of years I have seen the research and stats produced by asking the folks of Teeside who do travel by air and no demand exists from either the leisure or business sector except for a couple of destinations. However a couple of well performing routes do not make an airport. These are the same stats that an airline would have access to when choosing new routes.

Furthermore as facilities are so poor many folks in Teeside prefer to travel to NCL, LBA or MAN even though flights may be available from DTV and here is where the problem exists, airports have moved on dramatically in the last ten years and DTV has failed to keep up. Travellers now want more from their airport, they want a choice of shops, restaurants, bars somewhere to entertain the kids, also these ancillary services are where airports make a large amount of money. Lack of development at DTV has meant that it fails to meet the demands of the modern air traveller or the local population and they have voted with their feet and walked away.

Remember airlines operate to make a profit so if your assumption that folks are screaming out for flights is correct and demand currently exists then we would have those airlines flying from DTV. However this is not the case and DTV supporters have deluded themselves into believing that a market exists for its services when none does.

Its now time to face up to the facts and remember if DTV were our family pet we would have taken it to the vets by now to had it put to sleep to put it out of its misery

[Buster the Bear]

No doubt if DTV was to offer nice start-up incentives, airlines would be circling as per EGMC. As to when those inducements run out, they go back to EGSS if the venture fails.

[david.crosby]

For MME to be still here in the future is someone who wants to make a good airport and lots of money.

An owner who wants to attract airlines.

Ryanair left because of the raising costs and the PFF. We can get them back if we offered them the right amount of charges and no PFF. I beleive they would base at least 1 aircraft at MME.

We need to make it good enough for Thomson to base an aircraft at our airport. I beleive the demand is there.

With the loss of the BMI Baby, FlyGlobeSpan & Ryanair and no one from peel attracting any other airline the airport has just fell to its knees.

I beleive that Peel run the airport into the ground thinking that the Councils will give it up and for peel to create a business park and housing estate.

We need someone who will come in and change the fortune of the airport and not just sit there and do nothing.

When will we ever find out if someone is going to buy it, I thought they had 2-3 interested buyers

[pug]

David.crosby, why would ryanair base 1xaircraft at MME? For a start they have a base at LBA these days...