DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5

[TSR2]

Im going to the pub!!

Get one in for me, I'll join you later ;)

[skyman771]

DTVairport I believe they're getting rid of what they consider to be an unnecessary level of management and as such they won't be replaced and one guy will oversee all three facilities.
This sounds logical if looked at in one dimension, as to the situaution at DTV & with other redundancies necessary, then perhaps Mike's salary may have been one expense too much, though one presumes in presiding over both Doncaster & DTV then this was a shared overhead. Continuing on the same tack then perhaps Doncaster could not support 100% of his salary & so there was no place left for him to go. However on moving this view forwards, then I can't see how LPL could run without an operations director, and thus if this position has also been made redundant then it must be that the location of the office has simply moved down the road to Manchester. One way or another IF this is what has been affected then Mike & another at LPL certainly appear to have a serious TUPE tribuneral claim, something that I can't believe that Peel would allow to happen:suspect:Hmmmm....

[mattfalcus]

I believe the firefighters will be working a different shift pattern or different number of hours, so that they can still cover the same operational period. But I only heard that second hand, so may be wrong.


Did anyone hear the Vancouver Airports representative on BBC Tees news this morning? Was talking about Mike going, with all the usual "we wish him all the best" spile, but also said something along the lines of "we can't believe how difficult it has been to attract airlines and routes to the airport"

On the one hand, it's great to hear someone from VAS talk about the place (he had a Canadian accent and everything!), but on the other, it still doesn't give you any hope for the future...

[mmeman]

It is a bit worrying if he has said they are finding it very difficult to attract airlines and routes to the airport - I wonder how much the £6 fee is putting airlines off - We would still have Ryanair to Alicante, and you never know maybe also Tenerife and Faro like Doncaster?:confused:

Passengers figures in June are a bit mixed -

Jersey down 20%
Bourgas down 39%

Both down due to the fee?

But Amsterdam is holding up ok, only down 3% compared with last year and that is with the fee and the lunchtime flight instead of the teatime flight ( Maybe a case for KLM to have a lunchtime and a teatime flight;))

Dalaman is holding up only 1% down on last year and Southampton is up 30%,Aberdeen up 2% and Palma up 35% So it seems the fee has not put off Eastern Airways passengers yet!

Also I wish the MP and the Gazette that are trying to get the name changed back, would put more effort into getting people to use the airport rather than a confusing name change again.

[highwideandugly]

mme thanks for that post.

do you have the full figures?

from what you said most are down..KLM I am worried about..in my experience when airlines start moving schedules arouns it usually means future cuts!! my guess is the 3rd rotation will go this winter not sure what the connections are like but i do know from experience loads are not good on this flight.

i know summer brochures are hitting the shelves..anyone know if increases next year.

one final thing any of our older!! readers remember Polar Airways at MMe?? when did they operate??

[TSR2]

remember Polar Airways at MMe?? when did they operate

They operated two Viscounts during the winter of 1982/3 and went bust in April 1983.

[mattfalcus]

I have a picture of a Polar Airways Viscount, in BAF colour scheme.

Didn't they used to do cargo at night and passengers in the day? Wonder if they inspired Jet2 :D



As for passenger figures - is the Bourgas one down so much simply because it is a split load with Glasgow this year?

[wheelbarrow]

Wonder if they inspired Jet2

The previous name for Jet2 was Channel Express around since 78 when they flew the Dart Herald.

[TSR2]

Didn't they used to do cargo at night

Yes, small parcels to Maastricht.

[highwideandugly]

Had a few minutes so thought I would do a little check on the current figures.

According to a well respected site we currently have had 103500 passengers(dont forget thats really only 51750 outbound) to the end of June.

Projecting forward using approx.the same percentage figures,I make it an expected total of around 210000 give or take for the year.That takes us back to the 1973 ish level.With no real extra flights to come and the MOD flights all but dried up...Where will the revenue come from to keep DTV afloat?:(
Doesnt really make good reading..wonder what plans VAS have to generate more business??

[TSR2]

I make it an expected total of around 210000 give or take for the year

If your calculation is correct, and to put the total pax numbers into perspective, then more people will use Blackpool Airport than DTV.

Where will the revenue come from to keep DTV afloat?

Suggest DVT talk to BB at Blackpool as they have been fighting this problem for some years now.

[SWBKCB]

From the Northern Echo:

Operator Peel Airports has been in talks with a number of airlines about new route opportunities and a link-up with London Southend Airport is one of the options.

A deal with the Essex-based site, which has a fast rail link into central London, would offer Durham Tees Valley the foothold close to the capital it has craved since bmi cancelled its service to Heathrow in 2009.

However, no deal is expected in the short-term

‘Departure of airport chief not part of cuts’ (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/9149566.___Departure_of_airport_chief_not_part_of_cuts___/)

[Mr Mac]

Highwideandugly
Your comments on KLM about scheduel maybe correct but the yields on the Tesside fights are very good for KLM with many long haul passengers according to them using this serrvice. Now if there is an airport to land and depart from, well that is another story.

[N707ZS]

The KLM flight also brings in freight.

[DTVAirport]

Journalists have used this thread before for information on the airport, I can't help but wonder if my comments provoked the Northern Echo article SWBKCB posted, if so, I have only one thing to say - sh!t.

[davidjohnson6]

Posted in June 2009

24,790 pax in April would in terms of number of pax throughput, give MME a ranking in the UK somewhere close to Scatsta in Shetland. It does at least comfortably beat other places in Shetland / Orkney like Sumburgh and Kirkwall In April 2011 MME had approx 16,300 passengers.
Looking at CAA stats for the year from July 2010 to June 2011, Scatsta now has substantially more passengers than MME. Come to that, if you ignore airports on islands, the only UK airports with scheduled passenger service and smaller passenger numbers are Dundee, Manston, Plymouth and Southend

Reading the article in the Northern Echo, I can't figure out why a route from MME to Southend should work, when the train from Darlington to King's Cross would be both a faster and more frequent way to reach central London - can someone point the obvious bit of logic that I'm missing ?

[onion]

highwideandugly the revenues come from all over the airport (TNT, FR/Cobham, the clubs, any cargo, MOD, fire school, Terminal revenues, GA fees, car parking) not just passenger numbers and flights! The development fees will help cover short falls too. I wish people could see past the idea that passengers are the be all and end all! Yes they are very important but so are other areas!

On another note the idea of a Southend service isn't such a bad one, the train goes straight into Liverpool Street and is ideal for the City and Canary Wharf. As such Eastern would suit the type of person the service may attract. Lets face it the days of a London service putting 10k+ a month through the airport are gone unless the forced sale of Stansted leads to the opening up of slots at LGW or LHR through better competition, but to be honest I can't see it really, at least not for 5-10 years!

[NorthSouth]

the train goes straight into Liverpool Street
vs
the train goes straight into Kings Cross
Hmmmmmmm.....

And do bankers want to go to Middlesborough anyway? No flights from LCY to Newcastle, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool. Why should Tees-side be different?

If a Southend link worked it could only be as a feeder into the forthcoming Easyjet flights to short-haul destinations in Europe. But if you have to pay someone like Eastern to get to Southend you may as well get on KLM direct to Amsterdam for a much wider choice of connecting destinations.

Oh, there's a straw! Damn, missed it again....

NS

[apaul]

The Northern Echo has a strange idea of a fast rail link. The train from Liverpool St to Southend airport takes over an hour - 20 minutes longer than a train to Stansted.

[approach24]

Check your facts - the train from SEN to Stratford takes around 45 mins and around 50 mins to Liverpool St.
Fares are also a lot cheaper SEN to Liverpool St than Stansted.

[jdcg]

Don't think so. Just checked and both come out at approx. £27 return. Only cheaper if you day trip to Southend Airport, so not very likely.

[highwideandugly]

Onion I really do admire your positive spins!! You should be on the board of MME !

TNT .... no longer operate so no revenue there
Flying club movements way down(fuel costs as much as charges)'....not much revenue there
Cargo ?...... not much I'm afraid so no revenue there
GA fees again way down I would guess and dont forget they have to be shared with Midwest or whatever they are called? I think ncl took over the fbo up there and took all charges as a result..wonder i that could happen here? Why share the fees with another party when you can put your staff in and cream all the profits!! ..... not much revenue there
Terminal revenue? no passengers means no shop spend no car parking fees .......so no revenue there.
Fire school fixed contract so no/little increase over a year ....so not much revenue there
and finally
FR/Cobham once heard it was worth around 2 million a year? as stated many times they go(which is a distinct possibility due cuts) then MME goes-only real revenue earner
MOD flights almost down to nothing(thank goodness??) ....no revenue there

so all of that = no revenue in my book hence the redundencies,ghost town appearance,blocked off terminal ,no trains, no one on buses and the majority of threads on this forum !!

[N707ZS]

highwideandugly. Hangar 2 is full of TNT no aircraft but dozens of trucks which fill the full hangar and surrounding parking space so probably making more money than the aircraft on its own.

[Skipness One Echo]

Fares are also a lot cheaper SEN to Liverpool St than Stansted.

There's a pretty standard fare to from Liverpool St to Stansted Mountfitchet which then jumps by a fair margin to take you the last mile into Stansted Airport. If SEN does take off, the (identical) rail operator will clearly be doing the same as it will be pretty profitable for them to do so.

[tommyc2005]

Problem is though STN is end of the line, SEN is not. If fares to SEN were hiked, people would just buy tickets to Southend's main station.

[Expressflight]

Purely in the interests of accuracy, I just checked the National Rail Enquiries website for a rail journey tomorrow afternoon from both Stansted and Southend Airport to Liverpool Street.

Southend Airport to Liverpool Street £14.30 single 54 minutes
Stansted to Liverpool Street £21.00 single 48 minutes

So the Southend option certainly seems competitive on price and takes just 6 minutes longer.

[Facelookbovvered]

The hanger might be full, but you can do that in any industrial estate without the hassle of an airport.

DTV is a sad ghost town of its former self and i don't think there is much that the management could have done about it.

With Leeds down the road and NCL up the road both served by good road link from the DTV catchment area, plus the rail links South it never had a chance, the best it could hope for is to persuade the Government that development area status should exempt it from APD from November if the planned increases go ahead it will cost £24 to fly anywhere return in the UK and that's before airport & security charges of probably another £12-15 plus your own shoot me in the foot £6.00 levy

I see only a long slow death for DTV all the Loco's did (baby/FR/Globespan) did was to delay it a few years more. Bagby has more movements that DTV........says it all.

I would lobby for it to be joint military that way at least fire cover and ATC could be preserved for the future, its lasted longer than i ever thought it would, but it can't go on, nice big car park for a B&Q or Tesco

[pug]

With hindsight was it perhaps a mistake going down the route of attracting based low-cost operators and turning their back on the charter bucket and spade market, which was traditionally popular from MME?

I know there has been much consolidation in the charter market over the last couple of years, and HUY has suffered as a consequence as well, but were all eggs in one basket in the case of MME? :sad:

[DTVAirport]

Pug, when myself and others met Mike Morton a few weeks ago he admitted that Peel at the time could only see LCCs and nothing else and that there was a sense of regret.

[pug]

Ive been flamed for saying this before, and probably will again. I fully believe a large part of the Peel Airports business model was based on the success of LPL. By that I mean multiple daily low-cost flights on 737 sized aircraft, and therefore claw back revenue from footfall.

It clearly hasnt worked at MME, and not too sure about DSA either. I hope VAS can pull something out of the bag, they certainly have the experience of running airports. Though they need to make money from somewhere..

[onion]

highwideandugly I did not put any positive spin on anything just reported the facts and the fact that you clearly thought TNT weren't operating at the airport just shows how little you understand about revenue streams! MOD doesn't have to be trooping flights but is verything and anything under the MOD umbrella! My whole point is that airports aren't just that! They are business parks, airfields and much more besides!

NorthSouth is LCY SEN?... No! Neither did I say Middlesborough was full of bankers! Was it bankers that were using the LHR link?

Pug agree that 737 sized aircraft were never the right option for MME on low cost models and yes the airport should never of turned their back on the bucket and spade brigade! But that is all hindsight.

[LTNman]

Just been looking at Google Map together with Google Earth and Street View. I notice that Teeside Airport station can only be accessed from the airport and not the A67. So was the station built to serve the former RAF base or for passenger access to the airport? Has the airport ever provided some sort of shuttle bus to the terminal?

Also looking at Google Earth’s historic view taken in 2000 and their modern view. There is the framework of a large building that was being built by the railway station on airport land in 2000 or before. The building site has been abandoned. What was this building going to be used for and why was it abandoned?

[Expressflight]

I understand that trains stop at Teesside Airport railway station only on Sundays, with only two services then. The platform can also take only four-carriage trains apparently.
A shuttle bus driver wouldn't be exactly over employed.

[Facelookbovvered]

Train access or rather lack of is not an issue here, one only has to look at LBA or EMA to see that will not hold an airport back, most people wil either self drive or taxi, over many years the only train I have ever caught to a airport was LHR

I disagree that the 737 is the wrong size for the LoCo model out of DTV baby loads were very good on many routes, but DTV will only support so many routes due to it's location between LBA NCL and a two aircraft base might be viable when gas was cheap but not at current prices.

What DTV need to do is to persuade a few airline to run W pattern flight through DTV thereby avoiding base costs and show there is demand, it may be too late for winter ski but the likes of PRG would be a start.

[JSCL]

I think you're right @Facebookbovvered - to an extent.

735's would have been fine to support the market for DTV an still could be used there to offer some routes. Definitely, some W patterns could work - the point is, it has to be worth people traveling. I will happily travel from Manchester to Blackpool, Leeds and Liverpool if I need to and have done in the past if it's worthwhile doing so. So VAS should definitely be thinking that they are in the position to offer phenomenal fee rates to entice carriers in, they should have no problem being able to do that. I do actually see DTV becoming a Liverpool of the area - not massively busy but developing and sustaining a good level of routes which is at a profit for the airport overall.

They just need to pull themselves together and go for it. They have a tonne of facility space there, they could even start working to bring in some more cargo guys and too good to refuse rates, but the problem again is transport from the Airport.

I don't really know DTV or a lot about it, but there is no reason in my view that they can't be doing something about the ghost town situation.

[skyman771]

JCSL I do actually see DTV becoming a Liverpool of the area - not massively busy but developing and sustaining a good level of routes which is at a profit for the airport overall.
I fear your views are more theoretical than practical, & perhaps miss the most fundamental of points "It is a sellers market" out there insofar as carriers are concerned, thus they place their aircraft where they believe they can generate the most revenue. DTV simply can't compete from on a level playing field, with underwriting costs to support services totally unecconomic.
Looking at it from another direction for a Loco to provide a service then this has to be at the expense of another service / route elsewhere on their network. Alternatively the introduction of an additional aircraft into the fleet & one is competing with bases all across europe. DTV is unfortunately at the wrong end of a downwards spiral, which with partial closures & reduction in resources is hardly sending out a positive message. This all also relevant as regards to "w" operations, which incidentally would likely be less cost effective in terms of the net revenue generated.
So VAS should definitely be thinking that they are in the position to offer phenomenal fee rates to entice carriers in, they should have no problem being able to do that. I'm unsure as to what VAS must be thinking though I doubt VAS have any Arab benefactors willing to throw money around. More to the point is that VAS came to the table with strong credentials / experience of running airports. One would be excused from assuming based on their performance at DTV that that is not the case !

[North West]

Skyman - you appear to lay out an argument as to why services from DTV would be uneconomic and then end with a dig at VAS for not attracting services to the airport??

If the market as it stands at the moment means that airlines are not in the mood for taking risks at smaller airports like DTV, then what do you propose VAS should do?

[NorthSouth]

onion:NorthSouth is LCY SEN?... No! Neither did I say Middlesborough was full of bankers! Was it bankers that were using the LHR link?No indeed. But your point was that a Teesside-Southend service might work because SEN is ideal for the City and Canary Wharfi.e. that it might serve the same clientele as LCY.
NS

[JSCL]

Key for customers is primary to secondary or primary to primary, DTV to SEN is secondary to secondary, it won't work.

[highwideandugly]

Excellent thoughts and ideas from all here!! Maybe we should all get together(small amount of capital) and dictate the running of the airport?:ok:

Onion..I love your posts and I dont want to argue as I know like others you care.However you must take off the blinkers... I am aware of revenue streams(I should be in my position!) and my point is...MME doesnt have any!! The TNT operation has been going for years..where is it in the airport accounts? I will tell you way,way down.As others have said..that operation could be run from any site.What recognition does it give the airport? non.. as processed items (and I know) do not mention DTV on dispatch.
The MOD you mention is a trickle although more flights are due shortly! Front line/training sq> unfortunately do not exist any more..revenue? = nil plus its a small fee charged for these aircraft.
Commercial terminal feed is nil (ex.tax)

The infrastucture which takes years to build has gone I'm afraid.

Skyman hits the nail on the head..listen to him!


B737 aircraft were the right option..they had to be as no one operated anything else!

Weary but interesting...if all the threads could be joined together and some form of super energy produced MME would be number 1 in the NE !!

off to the pub again..care to join me anyone??

[skyman771]

North West
I am not in the position to tell VAS what to do, though I am not as naive as to suggest as per :-
JSCL VAS should definitely be thinking that they are in the position to offer phenomenal fee rates to entice carriers in :yuk:,.
Back to reality !... then my only comments on the VAS acquisition are a) to suggest that VAS possibly did not carry out sufficient “due diligence” on buying into Peel Airports. Ironically a read through the earlier postings of this thread could potentially have put them on notice as to some of the many issues that they have been unable to resolve. & b) To note that I understood that VAS initial objectives upon acquisition when considering their airport portfolio as a whole were to address matters at DTV. From what I can see, then from a DTV positive perspective they haven't managed to get past first base !:ugh:

[davidjohnson6]

I note that in Plymouth, the company running the airport has basically given up, and decided to close the airport.

What are the formal commercial and legal barriers to Peel / VAS doing the same thing and selling the land for alternate use such as an industrial park, retail development or housing ? Are there, for example, any commercial contracts which forbid this ? Perhaps planning laws or the MoD require the airport to be functional ? Anything else ?

I don't wish to see MME close, but am curious as to how strong a hand the airport supporters have, if the boards of Peel or VAS decide they've had enough

[DTVAirport]

Hangars One and Two and the majority of the other buildings from the RAF days are listed buildings and can't be touched, so that would be a spanner in the works.

[onion]

highwideandugly I am far from blinkered and have had a close relationship with the airport for 20+ years! I have seen things come and go. The facts are that too many people believe the be and end all is passengers! Airfields do and can survive with out passengers and before you point out an airport with out passengers is and airfield, I know.

B737 aircraft were the wrong sized aircraft, point is that Globespan, bmibaby or Ryanair could make them work in the long term on routes! The routes needed to be carefully chosen with the right aircraft, frequencies and timings. This was never done and all that has happened is that the routes came and went! This has put people off and put other airlines off. Yes there are many other reasons why lowcost services didn't take off at MME but these are the main reasons. It isn't only lowcost that have got it wrong though, Eastern did with their Brussels services that left MME to late arriving in Brussels to late and thus returning back to the UK to late! This all leads to bad publicity and a poor reputation with the general public and other airlines.

I do feel though most of the blame at the airport rest at the incompetence of the senior managment.

I think most on here would agree that there are ways out of the situation but the managment and operators just don't seemed to be bothered with the business and I know thre don't care about the staff.

[mercurydancer]

Train access is hugely important. EMA has the parkway station. Public transport to EMA is also available through Skylink, ie bus which links to the Nottingham trains and tram services.

The point being that the ONLY way to go to ME is either via taxi or self-drive. Both are expensive and as Ive explained here before, it is actually cheaper, more efficient and easier to go to Manchester Airport from Teesside than it is to go to MME.

[JKKne]

I think your overselling train access.

I rarely see anyone use the Metro into Newcastle. It's all self drive and taxis.

[highwideandugly]

I know we spend a lot of time looking at passenger figures through our airport(and others) however can anyone fill in the missing airport for June....


1)Dundee
2)Derry
3).......
4)not Dallas

yes you have guessed it..so not only are our passenger figures rock bottom..our movements are rock bottom..campaign time!!!

VAS OUT !!!! local councils back!!

[JSCL]

VAS OUT !!!! local councils back!!

Oh please heaven no, let's just close it before we get the councils back. Councils running airports never seems to work (yes, I know MAG would disagree with that) - but take the likes of Newquay, which is in a similar situation at the moment.

[ncleflights]

As I have said before the only thing keeping the builders off the airport site is the fact were are in recession. Once land prices pick up then I am afraid it may be easier for the land to be sold off for housing, retail park etc. I fear that given the opportunity the airport owners may think it makes better business to sell off the land than keep the airport on the life support machine

DTVAIRPORT - every day I pass a site on the way to NCL airport that used to have a command and control building for the RAF that was built in the thirties to keep a check on the Luftwaffe, unfortunately at the height of the housing boom that did not stop a house builder buying the site for housbuilding they simply were not allowed to pull the bunker down so built round it. Although a derelict building from the 1930s looks strange in a middle of a new housing estate it did not stop the builders or in deed put the folks off buying the houses. - dont think two hangers will stop the land around them been developed as it wont

[mmeman]

More bad news - looks like the Bourgas flights have been scrapped for the rest of the summer. Next special offer on Balkan Holidays website for Durham Tees Valley is 21 May 2012, where as every other airport has special offers for this year... Is it a case of the £6 fee putting a few people off flying from MME which then makes marginal routes unprofitable? Quite shocking as we are now in the peak holiday season...

[DTVAirport]

It's subject to confirmation but I believe it's more a problem at the airlines end, although having said that the flights started a fortnight later than scheduled as well.

[Robert-Ryan]

Regarding a reply that has since been removed relating to Onion's "I do feel though most of the blame at the airport rest at the incompetence of the senior managment." comment.

I think it's harsh to lay the blame fully on the managements doorstep - or even the owners for that matter - uncontrollable circumstances such as economy have certainly played their role, although not to the extent the airport have suggested (they blamed pre-recession events on the recession!!).

However, it is widely believed that previous management/owners did contribute more than their fair share to the downfall and you'll be hard pushed to find a member of staff at the airport that doesn't share that opinion.

[highwideandugly]

disussion maybe seems to have run its course? anyone got anything new to say,any poitive spin,anything at all?

get the feeling even the local populace have lost interest now?

i know its no benefit to dtv but flew through newcastle last week and i hav e to say it was a nice experience(other than horrendous security queues) nice to see passengers shops aircraft etc.

i know dtv will never reach that level but its nice to dream.

i suppose we could argue that we have no security queues here!! that I feel will be detrimental to newcastle as people weere not happy!! looked like not enough staff on duty as all the xrays were not open?

maybe a bit of pr from those above? ie use dtv no queues and speedy boarding?? every little helps(OK another plug for me!!)

[andyafc]

Anychance eastern could start up a london service? Seen quite a few embraers 145's down at luton recently could they be testing the route? Be a good idea if they went ahead with it

[DTVAirport]

Eastern were considering a London route for us about 8-12 months ago, if it was going to happen we'd have heard about it by now.

Through lack of anything better to discuss, the Darlington & Stockton Times have uploaded a photo today of an executive looking fellow, perhaps for a news article tomorrow, new MD perhaps?

Newsquest Darlington & Stockton Times: View Picture: el1airpo-0208-sc.JPG (http://darlingtonandstocktontimes.newsprints.co.uk/view/18154181/el1airpo_0208_sc_jpg)

[McGoonagall]

The sad truth is that when shipbuilding, the majority of ICI and the steelworks were taken outside and shot, the airport (DTV, Teesside or Middleton St George) was as good as finished. The airport relied on the business travel that those industries supplied. When the industries departed in the 90s, 00's, the local community could not support the quite substantial charter market that had built up. In the main they have naffed off leaving a few niche routes.

After the demise of heavy industry the Teesside area has pushed for the technology market to replace the manual labour it employed before. All well and good but that business is mainly done online. Far fewer bums on seats for business, mainly lower wages and fewer jobs for the bucket and spade runs.

Those that have money are far likely to choose not to go to Alicante (unless they have a house there) they can not get to London by air so routing through NCL or MAN are the only realistic options to get away to where they want to go by air. KLM offer an invaluable service to route through Schipol, but for how long?

It saddens me but it aint looking good

[jamier]

Would love a london route from DTV as currently have to go to newcastle to get on the BA flights to T5

[Frankfurt_Cowboy]

jamier Would love a london route from DTV as currently have to go to newcastle to get on the BA flights to T5

There we go then, that's that sorted!

[Keyvon]

With Girona, Alicante (sched.), Sharm el Sheikh, Bourgas, Dalaman and Bodrum all recently gone...MME is left only with a handful of regular international destinations :

Amsterdam (scheduled, year round)
Alicante (charter, winter only)
Tenerife (charter, winter only)
Palma (charter, summer only)

I hope Thomson will decide to introduce at least Dalaman to its Summer 2012 programme, as this destination proved always very popular from MME...but after the demise of Goldtrail and H4U...it will be regrettably no longer available. DLM is going to represent a big loss for MME in term of pax figures.

Airport management must do something immediately, otherwise it will soon face the risk of a closure, in all likelihood.

[highwideandugly]

Anyone know how many flights they had? Im guessing 3/5 at least maybe more?

Its really looking serious now.How dependent the airport were on this summer reveune we will soon find out> We still had Aug,Sept and October to go a massive loss.My guess is around 1500 per week...5000 ish per month x 3 thats a lot of revenue and passenger taxes!
Pax figures definately below 200000 this year.

Lets hope KLM keep there promise to maintain 3 per day.:uhoh:

[Keyvon]

Their programme says they offered 4 weekly flights : 2 to Dalaman (Tue, Wed) and 2 to Bodrum (Mon, Sat). Departures were available between early August and October.

All of them were oparated by Onur Air.

[andrewmcharlton]

It's looking very gloomy to say the least. Assuming the figures on DTMovements website are correct, and no reason to doubt them, put the current traffic into context.

If you take the full year figures for 2010, so excluding any net changes for 2011 so far, you have to go back to 1975 to find a worse year.

Is there not a case for DTV to reinvent itself for GA traffic, probably not under the current ownership, and try to blossom with a scaled down but reinvigorated approach and perhaps the occassional bucket and spade charter. This cannot be sustainable for long....

[highwideandugly]

Change of intensity!! Does anyone have the latest load factors for flights ex.DTV ? I know the excellent DTV Move site used to show them but they appear to be missing recently?

Looks like the Onur flight problems are hitting Newcastle more than us...obvious really!!

what happens next year..anyone out there to take up a massive market? Now is the time for the Commercial guys to go out there with a clean piece of paper(and offers!!) and make DTV THE airport for Turkey??

should be interesting...

[apaul]

NCL still has 3 airlines and about 20 flights a week flying to Turkey compared to none from Durham Tees Valley. I don't see the scope for making DTV 'the airport for Turkey' particularly as cheap holiday destinations like Turkey and Bulgaria are those that are most likely to be affected by the development fee.

[P330]

The DTV movement site seems to be working for me....not great reading but no surprises.

I have heard from KLM though that they are happy with the yields of the DTV service and will stay as long as they yields remain and as long as there is an airport to operate into....that is some good news at least.

[mattfalcus]

Both the Northern Echo and Evening Gazette today (5th August) carry stories of doom and gloom for DTVA management unless people start using the airport.

Here's the Echo piece:

'Use it or lose it' - Durham Tees Valley airport warning (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9179442._Use_it_or_lose_it____Durham_Tees_Valley_airport_war ning/)

[10 DME ARC]

'Use it or lose it' - Its a difficult one as punters need routes/services to use! Its a bit chicken or egg you need one to get the other!

[highwideandugly]

Good point 10DME

How on earth can punters fly from DTV if there are no flights to anywhere? me thinks this is passing the buck and blaming the local populace for the shortcomings of PEEL and VAS ??

They need to get off their Fat A...s and get some flights in that people can use.

I Despair !!:ugh:

[DTVAirport]

Read the article properly, more specifically, the Q&A part. They're obviously trying, they're just acknowledging the near-impossible economic environment they're having to try and overcome.

The operating conditions wouldn't have been such a problem if Peel hadn't of put us so deeply in the s:mad:t - VAS are at least attempting to get us out of it.

[Get me some traffic]

Teesside Airport's management are still not seeing the picture. You don't buy from a shop that has nothing on the shelves. Even the products they have to sell are overpriced because of the PFF. A local family going to Canada via AMS found that the price through NCL is £10 per head cheaper plus £6 per head PFF. For a family of 4 that is £64. They are going via NCL, a drive of 45miles each way instead of 12 miles. They are being dropped off because the car parking fees at both airports are too high. Simple economics.

[davidjohnson6]

Getmesometraffic - then simple economics is probably trying to say that there simply isn't enough demand for 2 airports for passenger airlines in between Leeds and Edinburgh

[highwideandugly]

Amazing that accordoing to the great DTV website...the airport up to 2012 had more overshooting aircarft than landing today !!!
And before you shout me down i know that doesnt include local traffic.

still a very poor reflection??

[mattfalcus]

Liverpool Airport director has quit now. That means all three Peel/VAS airports are without someone in the top role. Is something going on?

Liverpool Airport boss leaves : Liverpool Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/liverpool-airport-news-090811.html)

[dwlpl]

To say 'Liverpool Airport director' is misleading.

He wasnt THE Liverpool Airport director, he was one of the senior managers (for the terminal if memory serves).

It points to VAS bringing in their own staff now that they have been in situ for a year now.

[lplsprog]

He was the operations manager and is due to be replaced by a former airport employee soon in the same role. The Canadians have appointed one of their people as senior operation manager for all three airports and it is reported that the other airports will have replacements appointed there. Whether the salary is the same, I doubt it.:}

[DTVAirport]

I see the Southampton route has been dropped after August :mad:

[Robert-Ryan]

The only glimmer of hope I can see is this paragraph out of The Northern Echo's use it or lose it article:

"Mr Richmond is hopeful of securing a new service later this year after lengthy talks with unnamed airlines, but he stressed that the airport needed the region’s support to show carriers they could prosper at DTV."

That sounds to me like they had to beg, but nevertheless it's more or less a done deal.

What bugs me is that we have far more traffic/business than many other UK airports, and you don't see them threatening to close (Manston, Lydd, Carlisle, Dundee, Gloucester etc.) So what is costing MME so much?
Why isn't GA, Cobham, KLM, Serco and the rent from all the businesses on the site paying enough?

[mattfalcus]

And there are many, many regional airports in the USA that serve a small city with a single route, 2x daily to a hub airport. Possibly a bit of GA and biz jet activity on the side.

Yet none of them seem to struggle, they just carry on day by day. Some have PSO money, but not many.

[andrewmcharlton]

Since when is:

hopeful of securing a new servicethe equivalent of:

nevertheless it's more or less a done deal???

You might want to check out this too.... Ipswich Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich_Airport)

Carlisle is on it's chinstrap, Dundee is losing £2.6m a year, Manston and Lydd are close to London and benefit from substantial GA and some charters.

GA in the USA is on another level compared to the UK or Europe due to much lower cost of ownership and operations so its not really a level playing field for comparison.

[ericlday]

The boss of the company that runs Durham Tees Valley Airport has said the hub could close unless there is a sharp increase in passenger numbers, the Northern Echo reports. Craig Richmond, chief executive of Peel Airports, said people in the Teeside region need to start using Durham Tees Valley or risk losing the facility.

The number of passengers using Durham Tees Valley has fallen from a peak of 920,000 in 2006 to a predicted of figure of less than 200,000 this year. The airport has yet to recover from losing three airlines in 2009, bmibaby, Flyglobespan and Thomson Airways. The decision last November to impose a £6 charge on passengers that must be paid at the time of departure is also rumoured to have put off a lot of potential customers.

Speaking to The Northern Echo newspaper, Mr Richmond said the loss-making airport could not be propped up indefinitely. He said: ‘I don’t know what the time frame is, but eventually if it can’t turnaround, something’s going to change. I have three airports (Durham Tees Valley, Liverpool and Robin Hood) and the other two airports have six million passengers, yet I spend half my time on Durham Tees Valley thinking what we can do.’

[apaul]

It has not gone completely. You can still fly to Southampton on Sundays.

[Jamesair]

I don't see how there can be a sharp increase in pax numbers with less and less flights able to carry them.

Unless another operator is found or new routes introduced the writing seems to be on the wall for the airport.

[highwideandugly]

No more needs to be said here..the writing is on the wall.

I know I wouldnt employ VAS to run my business..they appear to be a complete shambles,devoid of any strategy or structure.

The sooner they sell back to the local councils at a knock down rate and let local people take ownership of the airport the better?

My guess(as stated before) is that KLM will drop the third lunchtime flight soon.That will leave at most 3/4 Aberdeen flights per day and 2/3 KLM flights.Cant see the Southampton lasting ,weekends only..no business passengers for a start?

THE WHOLE INFRASTUCTURE OF THE AIRPORT IS TOO FAR GONE NOW.:ugh:

[N707ZS]

So which airport owes the most money, what happened to the 230 million or so loan that was due to be paid at Newcastle, does Teesside owe similar amounts?

I keep wondering if we should split the forum, those who wish Teesside to stay open and another for those that wish Teesside to close.

[airhumberside]

My guess(as stated before) is that KLM will drop the third lunchtime flight soon.
I doubt it. KLM operate at least 3xDaily to all the UK airports they serve

Cant see the Southampton lasting ,weekends only..no business passengers for a start?
I imagine it's been retained for operational convienence. ABZ-MME unable to sustain a flight on it's own on a Sunday, likewise ABZ-SOU. So combine the two and sell the seats between MME-SOU for some bonus income

Similarly T3 operate NWI-HUY-ABZ on a Sunday, albeit not selling NWI-HUY leg

[Jamesair]

KLM would probably keep the three flights. My understanding of their operation is that it operates a "wave" system, with waves of departures from AMS connecting with a "wave" of connecting arrivals from the UK

[Get me some traffic]

There are two very interesting letters in yesterday's Northern Echo. One from a GS Stapleton hits the nail on the head. I quote from part of that letter.
"At the moment Mr Richmond (MME Director) is the only businessman I know who blames his customers for not wanting the very limited range of goods he has on offer, then to add insult to injury, has the gall to actually charge his customers for using his shop. If Tesco reduced the number of items it sells to less than a quarter of those of its competitors, then charged people to enter the shop they would be out of business within a week and no-one would be surprised."
Peel have one objective, close the airport and develop the land for a profit. They are, after all, property developers.
My sympathy lies with the dedicated and loyal staff who are being kicked in the teeth on a daily basis and the hundreds of thousands of local people who would use their airport, given a chance. There were over 900,000 of them just before Peel took over.

[Lancelot37]

Eastern Airways confirmed that it is pulling out of DTVA next month.
Ref. Northern Echo.

[Get me some traffic]

Not quite correct.
Eastern are dropping the SOU except for Sundays. The ABZ will continue.
GMST

[SWBKCB]

Whether it's correct or not, the Northern Echo article does explicitly state that the Sunday flight stops:

The last flight to Southampton will take off on Friday, September 2. Eastern’s four flights a day from DTV to Aberdeen, used mainly by workers in the oil and gas industry, will continue.

Falling passenger numbers were behind the decision to suspend the twice-daily Southampton service, which started in November 2009.

The Sunday flight will also cease.

A spokesman for Eastern Airways said frequency adjustments, timing changes and lower fares had failed to stimulate more demand, adding: “At a time when the economic climate is still very challenging and fuel costs continue to rise sharply, we’ve taken a tough decision to withdraw and concentrate on our core routes, as this service is not commercially viable.”

[horsebox]

More likely the aircraft will be off to France as they expand their operation out of Dijon.

[TSR2]

The July 2011 Passenger Numbers do not make good reading.

Total Pax July 2011 - 16,794 (-31.6% on July 2010)

Total Pax Rolling Year - 218,613 ( -8.1% on Previous Year)

[andrewmcharlton]

Thunor, as I am sure has been said before, it's not about the number of pax it's about the yield from the load. It maybe the plane is occassionally full or even profitable, but if they have an alternate route which will yield more per sector then they're going to be offski !

[P330]

This year's one-off charter to Lapland, with Transun has just been cancelled. Transun have allegedly just sent letters to travel agents/travellers confirming that demand for the flights have been very low and customers are being offered similar trips from other airports. The flight was due to operate on Sunday 18th December.

So...even when operators go out of their way to put on flights....we can't fill them!

[mattfalcus]

Regarding the Lapland flight,

a) I hadn't seen any advertising for this flight at all. I have seen plenty of advertising previous years. So maybe their marketing spend was to blame.

b) It's only August. Why cancel it so early? People are thinking about bucket and spade trips to the Med, not chilly trips to see Santa. There was still 4 months to sell seats on the flight, at a time when people will be more likely to respond

[davidjohnson6]

mattfalcus - I agree there is plenty more time to sell the flight, but if bookings for the coming December are much lower compared to the level in August 2010 or August 2009, then it's a pretty good signal that the flight isn't going to be profitable. In any case, if the operator doesn't tell customers by November, I suspect various EU compensation schemes kick in.

In addition, would Transun have to make any large non-refundable lease payments in August to the operating airline to ensure the aircraft is available ? If so, Transun may have made a decision that trying to flog more seats in Sept / Oct is too risky

Perhaps the customers would prefer to be told well in advance and be able to choose whether to go from another airport or not go at all ?

[Travel Agent]

You may find it hard to believe but peak booking dates for the lapland & santa trips are between January & March - it gives people plenty of time to save towards the cost.

[DTVAirport]

New airport director appointed.

New airport director for Durham Tees Valley (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9205592.BREAKING_NEWS__New_airport_director_for_Durham_Tees_ Valley/?ref=twtrec)

[MME4eva]

Beat me to it DTV!

On another note, subject to us being open, Thomson flights to PMI in summer 12 will be operated by Air Europa B737-800s, as will be the case at LBA and TOM.

Also, Newmarket Holidays have announced a similar programme to Italy from MME next May.

[Jamie2k9]

The flight only timetable says Orbest Orizonia Airlines and if you go to book a hoilday its says Aer Europa.

[OldManJoe]

New airport director appointed.

New airport director for Durham Tees Valley (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9205592.BREAKING_NEWS__New_airport_director_for_Durham_Tees_ Valley/?ref=twtrec)
Steve Gill, who is currently Group Environment and Facilities Director

Now we have a baggage handler and the cleaner in charge...... Last one out, turn off the lights.

[OldManJoe]

Steve knows Durham Tees Valley Airport well, having played a key role in the original majority acquisition of the Airport by Peel in 2003 and worked on many of the £30m improvements that have taken place at the airport since then," a spokesman said.

£30m improvements...... WHERE!!!! The Chuckle Bros could have done a better job!

[Expressflight]

Mr Gill is obviously a very experienced manager in many areas, but I don't see anything likely to be very helpful in negotiating with airline managements. I doubt he has an in-depth knowledge of route viability and potential nor how airlines think in that regard, but good luck to him as he has quite a task on his hands.

[highwideandugly]

good luck to the new man in charge.lets hope he has the full backing both financial and operationally to move the airport forward.
I dont envy his job and the first step is to stop the rot.horrendous figures yet agin for July with no real improvement in sight for the next 5 months of the year.

it really would be nice to know the master plan from VAS/Peel ?

come on guys one idea each to pass on!!
I will start by renaming it Teesside airport(I know its the easy one!!)

over to you

[OldManJoe]

Close the terminal, bring in a maintenance outfit and concentrate on the biz jet and GA market. There's three for your list.

[jetstar.8]

Move TNT out of hanger 2 and bring back aircraft painting like Sprayavia did in the past :)

[MME4eva]

Not wishing to be shot down, I fully acknowledge the predicament of the airport is serious but why is it that we are faced with closure yet Norwich, humberside, blackpool and new quay are not? Take today, 9 arrivals at mme vs 6 at huy

[Wellington Bomber]

Have you counted the number of helicopter rotations as well at HUY, as well as a Ryanair 737 and Thomas Cook 767

[airhumberside]

HUY 'Oil Rig' passengers in 2010 amounted to 54660 which equals a sizeable amount of business. Plus HUY is home to 2 airlines (Eastern and Linksair)

The number of daily departures isn't the best indicator - try counting them at DSA on some days in the winter. Can be as few as 2 or 3

[NorthSouth]

Norwich and Blackpool also have significant volumes of commercial helicopter traffic.

NS

[DTVAirport]

Just noticed the airport has a new website, and upon looking further so does Liverpool and Doncaster too.

It looks good and everything but surely this is unnecessary expense?

[CentreFix25]

I wouldn't have had the passenger handling fee branded about so obvious on the front page. I think I would be trying to sell my products first, showing what is on offer - not how much it's going to cost even before you've started.

[TSR2]

August Pax Figures.

Total Pax Aug 2011 - 16,213 (-36.1% on Aug 2010)

Total Pax Rolling Year - 209,450 (-9.6% on 2010)

[davidjohnson6]

Looking at average commercial passenger figures over the year, MME still remains above Sumburgh (Shetland) or Kirkwall (Orkney)

[Lancelot37]

Centrefix - I agree. Having spent 24 years as an Electical/Mechanical Sales Engineer it is always "Sell all of the benefits first and the costs last." Especially if, as I did, you work for a company who has the highest costs, but the best service.

[andrewmcharlton]

THE new director of Durham Tees Valley Airport has pledged to turn around the fortunes of the site.
Steve Gill, who took on the role of director of Durham Tees Valley Airport and Robin Hood Airport in Doncaster earlier this month, said: “There is a market and there is a demand and I am absolutely determined to fulfil that demand.
“We want more passengers through the door and we are listening to what people want. This is a turnaround opportunity.
“It’s an exciting opportunity to reveal the airport’s true potential.”
He said the airport had suffered from “a couple of difficult years”, adding: “all UK airports have had a difficult couple of years”.
“DTV has lost more passengers than we would have liked - from 220,000 to 190,000.”


Durham Tees Valley Airport has lost of a number of routes in recent years such as Ryanair withdrawing services.
Last month the airport was hit by the collapse of travel operator Holidays 4U which went into administration. The firm flew from Teesside to Turkey.
The airport currently has 90 commercial - scheduled and charter - flights per week, not including business jets and private flights and 153,000 passengers to date this year.
But Mr Gill said he is positive about the airport’s future.
“It’s a bright future for Durham Tees Valley Airport. We have Newmarket Holidays on board starting new routes to Italy and Croatia in May/June next year.
“We are making small steps.
“We are talking to airlines in the UK, Europe and across the world. A large team is going out to Berlin soon.
“And we should not overlook what we have in the strength of KLM going to Amsterdam and from there across the world. KLM is 60% of our business at present.”


Well that's alright then........heaven forbid KLM go away !

[DTVAirport]

Similar article in today's Northern Echo:

BUSINESSES are being asked to back the latest bid to safeguard Durham Tees Valley Airport.

"Tell us what routes you want and help us to bring them here," was the key message from recently-appointed airport director Steve Gill who called on the region to support his rescue mission.

Introducing an extra KLM flight to Amsterdam is high on Mr Gill's list of priorities as he plots the route to recovery.

"Failure is not in my thinking. This is a turnaround opportunity and I am looking at it very positively," said Mr Gill, who was handed the task of lifting the beleaguered airport out of the doldrums following the shock departure in July of director Mike Morton.

Mr Gill may be a far more softly-spoken character than his Merseyside-born predecessor, but the latest incumbent is determined to bring the good times back to an airport which four years ago boasted annual passenger numbers of about 650,000. Without its three daily flights to the Dutch capital the facility would almost certainly close. Mr Gill, who will split his time between the North-East and Robin Hood Airport Doncaster/Sheffield, intends to harness the power of local business leaders and politicians. Stephen Catchpole, managing director of Tees Valley Local Enterprise Partnership (LEP) and Neil Schneider, chief executive at Stockton Borough Council are among those whom Mr Gill and airport manager Shaun Woods have met this month. "We'll leave no stone unturned to maximise the potential of this business," Mr Gill told The Northern Echo. "The initial challenge is to rekindle relationships with the community and key stakeholders. I can see that they are all very supportive, but the challenge is to turn that support into a clearly orchestrated plan.

"We need to hear from business what routes they need so we can understand what could be viable. We want local businesses and politicians to help build the case with us so we can lobby the airlines as a region. That will be far more powerful than the airport bidding on its own. This is about the airport acting as a catalyst to help market the Tees Valley."

Mr Catchpole described the LEP's role as "a conduit between businesses and the airport on two levels. Firstly, to help highlight the opportunities the airport already provides such as its route to Schiphol which acts as a hub connecting travellers to the rest of the world. Secondly, to find out the destinations required by local businesses so the airport can approach airlines about securing additional routes that would be well-supported by Tees Valley companies." Attracting passengers away from rival airports in Newcastle, Leeds and Humberside will also be key, but Mr Gill accepted that he must offer new destinations if he hopes to to boost demand.

He concluded: "The KLM Amsterdam route is the absolute jewel in our crown. It gives us connectivity to the world. With the strong and varied business sector that we possess there are undoubtedly growth areas to tap into. In discussion with our partners at KLM we hope to bring an additional turnaround to Schiphol. But it will not happen overnight, and we need the whole region pulling with us."

The controversial £6 fee imposed on passengers flying out of the airport will remain in place but there are no plans to increase the charge which came into effect in November.

No job losses are expected at the airport but consultation is ongoing to cut staff from the site's 31-strong fire service.

[N707ZS]

It never takes long for the knockers to come out on here.

[andrewmcharlton]

N707ZS - knockers? Are you for real?

The facts speak for themselves. It's a shambles and the worst pax figures for longer than a lifetime. In the words of Blackadder, when all else fails, blind optimism.....

[TSR2]

An interesting comparison between DTV and Southend Airport is the initial thrust to boost the fortunes of the airport at DTV appears to be aimed mainly at the business routes whilst Southend are initially targeting leisure routes.

[skyman771]

An interesting comparison between DTV and Southend Airport
I'm totally lost on the relevance of this, re. Southend then the local ecconomy, demographics & the Olympics all play a major part. Not to mention the demand stimulated by airfield development leading to improved aircraft operating limits.
So where does DTV come in ? Oh ! yes there is Sprayavia..............:ugh:

[TSR2]

Not a comparison of airports but of business strategy. As I said, Southend's initial priority appears to be the leisure market whilst DTV appears to be the business market.

[bad bear]

He concluded: "The KLM Amsterdam route is the absolute jewel in our crown. It gives us connectivity to the world. With the strong and varied business sector that we possess there are undoubtedly growth areas to tap into.

this does rather put KLM in a good bargaining position when negotiating landing fees next time around
bb

[highwideandugly]

:ugh:I know ...its always a re run of previous posts and now rather boring...however...

the airport is a shambles the infrastructure has gone,the staff have gone,the good will has gone and the name has even gone.
With the newly anounced Housing plans for the region..Peel are now in pole position to offer the local authorities a prime piece of greenfield/brownfield/unused airfield land at a profit and knock down price..watch this space ?

ps what ever happended to all the optimisum on the company dismantling aircraft? I make it they only had the one? What Happened?:ugh:

[Robert-Ryan]

Heard a rumour that the RAF have been at DTVA this last week with regards to moving Leeming there.

There was a BAe 125 paid an unusually lengthy visit yesterday, could be unrelated though?

[SWBKCB]

Yeh - they probably came on a Sunday hoping nobody would notice...

[Robert-Ryan]

Thanks for that SWBKCB, I did take that into account hence the "could be unrelated though?"

[pzu]

See

Newcastle airport in £3.2m expansion (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9271455.Newcastle_airport_in___3_2m_expansion/)

PZULBA - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Midland 331]

I've just dropped in to post a letter, and out of curiosity.

What a sad scene. Advertising space on prime sites on the approach road lying empty with peeling and flapping paper, weeds growing in the short-stay car park greeting me in the sole car, acres of empty space in the long-stay, four passengers in the terminal, eight various staff visible. One departure (Aberdeen) left for today, around five tomorrow. The departure levy was pitched on a poster as "help secure this airport's future" or similar, almost like a charity appeal

All we needed was tumbleweed, dust, cactus, a ratting wind-pump, and a saloon door swinging on one hinge. This is aviation's "Spaghetti Western" film set.

In truth, I had "The Specials" "Ghost Town" playing in my head.

I worked there for Midland April '82 to June '85, and it was the home of a proud, close-knit little community, with deeply-professional and dedicated ground staff.

I can't believe the place has really come to this. It's deeply saddening. Cynicism and wise-cracking aside, this is a real tragedy.

rg

[highwideandugly]

Welcome back midland 331.

you are so right..and so sorry to say you have missed nothing!

as you can see even the more optimistic of us have stopped posting..it really is a downward slope and no way out I'm afraid.

You must however give peel/vas/councils some credit for keeping faith..must be costing a fortune for them and it makes you wonder how long before the money men say enough is enough?

what was the outcome of BMIBABY's appeal against the brake of contract? I seem to have missed it?
and also what has happened to the break up of aircraft promised? anyone have any answers?

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Blackpool, Newquay ,Durham and Norwich are all walking the same
tightrope.

Passengers declining so business model says extract more money from the punters.:ok:

[sealink]

I covered shifts at MME for Midland back in 1997/98. I was BFS based at the time. Really loved working there. Good buzz and great staff throughout. Even loved staying at the George Hotel ( think that was the name ). Sounds as if times are bad. I regularly check the Departures and its depressing to look at. MME just needs 1 airline to come in and start a few routes. The local people can only support an airport if it has flights on which to travel. Good luck MME.

[nearly50]

From the giddy heights of nearly 1 million passengers per year down to only two hundred thousand. There are a number of reasons for this and this downward trend cannot be blamed on one factor alone.

A lack of investment by the local council owners. For an airport to expand in a highly competitive market with major competitors less than 1 hour away the existing facilities need to be continuously improved. This does not come cheap and understandably many, if not all local council-owned and run regional airports have over the years been sold with the councils retaining a minority (controlling?) stake.

Management (!). Where to start with this one? Over the years a lack of a clear plan and focus, when others were actively encouraging the airlines to come and try their facilities. When package holidays began to be affordable for the masses, Teesside sat back and waited for the operators to come and knock on the door. Once established up the road or on top of a hill and getting a good service and building up a strong customer base why would any operator want to open another base with the costs involved and uncertainty that goes with any new route? The damage was done 20 - 30 years ago! A drive for low-cost airlines and some local publicity might have helped but all to often a trip to the travel agents asking for a holiday from Teesside was met with "they don't fly from there!" or a surcharge of £30 or £40 per person.

Teesside or Durham Tees Valley? What's in a name? Which numpty (probably a highly paid consultant) decided to re-brand an existing local company with something which the majority of local people including the staff do not like or associate with? It is confusing to foreign travellers as it is no where near Durham. Did no-one tell the board that only a certain number of characters can fit on most airport FIDS. TEESSIDE did, DURHAM TEES VALLEY is usually shortened or people until recently still referred to Teesside! Don't get me started on the road signs, a complete shambles. If one more person tells me that the name change / re-branding was as at request of the airlines I will bite their arms off. Where are these airlines now? Many famous brands spent decades building up a loyal following and found to their cost that changing a name was a recipe for disaster. Who remembers Consignia ?

The Economic downturn & ease of travel to other airports. The current economic downturn affects us all too various extent and Teesside along with some other regional airports may suffer more than the bigger airports. The higher cost of everything it seems including oil prices means less £, $, and Euros to spend. Less people are going abroad on holidays; businesses are cutting their travel budgets. The internet enables the high street travel agents to be by-passed in the search for the lowest fare available thus cutting margins. The internet also allows web-based business conferences again cutting down on travel needs. Airlines are able to negotiate very hard contracts with little if any direct fees for the airport operator. A bigger airport with a mix of low-cost, long haul, package holidays, freight & will survive by making savings and looking at every aspect of its' operation. Smaller airports which rely on only a few operators will struggle. Instead of charging people who still use the airport a fee of £6, why not offer free parking and make a publicity campaign about it. People these days think nothing of driving to Newcastle or Manchester (or using the Trans Pennine rail service) if they think they are saving money. Do something different before it's too late!

Hopefully Teesside will struggle on in some form by reducing its hours, closing half the terminal to save costs, etc. But until there are more cars in the car park, more pints of lager consumed in the bar(s) (?) and more queues at the security control point it will be a long and difficult road.

All the best...
:)

[roverman]

nearly50......

you missed one factor...economic realism. There are too many airports in the north of England all chasing the same low-yielding passenger traffic. Sad for DTV because it was there before DCS and the boom at places like Leeds/Bradford. Realistically, in terms of passenger traffic the north is dominated by MAN, with room for LPL, LBA, and NCL to service some local traffic. That is the only way it can realistically operate, but in the absence of any government strategy for traffic distribution, the markets will decide and there will be casualties.

Airports like DTV need to play on their strengths and look for where will be a demand for aerospace industry sites with airfield (but not neccesarily airport) facilities.

Forget chasing low yielding passengers and instead look for more Cobhams, more fire training schools, more aircraft maintenance, more flying training, more military support services, niche freight, aircraft storage etc. All can be profitable uses of the site which secure a future for DTV.

[Aero Mad]

Blackpool, Newquay ,Durham and Norwich are all walking the same tightrope.I would disagree. Newquay is doing all right, Norwich could do with some more traffic but again is ticking along and Blackpool has Manx2 and Jet2 - not doing badly at all. Bournemouth is one which you forgot - they really are having problems following the addition of drop-off charges, the end of Palmair and Ryanair's increasing seasonality.

I'm a firm believer that the problems we are seeing are temporary. In the spirit of David Cameron (dare I ;)) at the conference today,

Right now we need to be energised [yes, I hate this word too], not paralysed by gloom and fear.and
Let's reject the pessimism. Let's bring on the can-do optimism.

[Wycombe]

Aero Mad said:

Newquay is doing all right

I would really question that - all they have for W11/12 is the (sometimes down to 1 daily) LGW with Flybe, 4 weekly MAN with Flybe (replacing a previous service by the now defunct Air Southwest) and few a Twotters a day to the Scillies - that's it!

Sorry for thread creep.....

[Get me some traffic]

Baby's Teesside - Newquay was a successful route, maybe it should be re-invented?

[skyman771]

Newquay is doing all right
Errr...... interesting comparison:sad: however main traffic market of DTV is to service local market enabling people to fly FROM, whereas NQY main function is as a destination enabling people to fly TO it.
Can't see as to how anyone could deduce anything usefull in attempting to compare / correlate pax no.'s (or lack of...) between the two sites.:ugh:

[Get me some traffic]

Hi Skyman, Baby's route FROM Teesside TO Newquay was successful (as were most of Baby's routes from Teesside). I was not comparing pax figures, just stating fact.

[Aero Mad]

I'm sorry skyman, but I am simply making a point about a previous statement on the thread (that of Ye Olde Pilot). All regional airports slow down in winter. However, rumour has it that Newquay will see Aurigny fill the breach left by ASW on the Jersey route, whilst Loganair has announced officially that it will fulfil a similar role on the Glasgow route as of spring next year.

Back to thread...

[davidjohnson6]

September stats:
Aug 2011 passengers - 15,224 (down 41.3% on Aug 2010)
Rolling year passengers - 198,728 (down 12.4% on same period last year)

Source - http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data_prov/201109/September_2011_Provisional_Airport_Statistics.pdf

Looking on a per route basis (numbers from CAA provisional stats)
..................2011..2010
Luton...............0......28 -100%
Aberdeen....2,843..2,956 -4%
Glasgow...........0........8 -100%
Dublin..............0..1,214 -100%
Catania........292........0
Verona.........288........0
Amsterdam.8,966.10,078 -11%
Alicante...........0..4,103 -100%
Palma........2,305..2,155 +7%
Bodrum...........0...1,145 -100%
Dalaman..........0...2,193 -100%
Burgas............0...1,132 -100%

With regards to possible future developments rather purely in the past, the 11% decline on the Amsterdam route is concerning. The NCL-AMS route had a 9% increase in passenger numbers in Sep 2011

[highwideandugly]

September -42% Well nothing really that we didnt expect?

This cant go on at this level for much longer?
As ive said many times Peel/Vas whatever, appear to be the proverbial Nero...fiddling while DTV descends into history.

Please someone come on and prove me wrong?

to add fuel...DTV in the past years was always an excellent diversion airport.Always available while Newc had the sea fret and leeds sat in the clouds...however not now..the infrastucture has completely gone(as noted in earlier posts)
ie has anyone seen that ridiculous notam about the fire cover supplied?
talk about putting obsticles in the path...they get rid of firemen and then say the airport isnt available for any extra movements or diversions?
my easy jet mate said they wanted to divert in yesterday from a wild newcatle but couldnt because of no fire cover??? what is that all about??? do they want extra business or not??

I really despair !!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Get me some traffic]

Passenger Facility Fee? (Passenger F***off Fee)

[learjet50]

Just close the place down it as useful as a Chocolate Poker

Sell the land and make Houses

DTV Dont want business its obvious

Why doesnt someone But Tees Side // Blackpool // Robin Hood // Coventry //Prestwick and convert all to wind farms

lets face it the airports will never make money and should all face reallity and close in the present economy

sorry to see em all go but come on you all know its true

[roverman]

These sites will never make money as airports because there's not enough traffic to support so many airports in a small country. Particularly in the North, where only MAN can really cut it as a major airport, with a supporting role for LPL, LBA and NCL.

But that doesn't mean the other sites can't be successful and make money. Just not as airPORTS. MME, BLK, DCS, HUY etc should be trawling Europe and perhaps further afield for companies engaged in aviation-related industries, and in need of an airfield location. These sort of uses are likely to produce more skilled jobs and to trickle more cash through the regional economy than will low-cost flights taking locals away for stag weekends.

[SWBKCB]

From the Northern Echo:

AIRLINE KLM last night pledged its support for Durham Tees Valley but revealed it has no plans to bring more flights to the embattled airport.

Backing from Durham Tees Valley's most important client was a positive sign for recently-appointed airport director Steve Gill who nevertheless had hoped to persuade KLM to increase its three daily services to Amsterdam, which he has called "the absolute jewel in our crown."

Instead, Henri Hourcade, Air France KLM General Manager was in the region to announce an increase in services from Newcastle International to the Dutch and French capitals this winter in response to rising passenger numbers.

"The difference between the two airports in the North-East can be summed up at the moment as Newcastle is about development and Durham Tees Valley is about stability," said Mr Hourcade as he unveiled a 25 per cent increase in capacity from Tyneside to Paris and a 10 per cent rise to Amsterdam following the introduction of new flights and aircraft.

"Newcastle will continue to have the bigger slice of the cake as it is the major urban centre in the North-East. This is a huge step for us and a sign of the optimism we have in the region," he added.

Mr Hourcade denied the move could attract business away from Durham Tees Valley which has seen its passenger numbers fall from 650,000 in 2008 to about 200,000 this year.

"We have a very loyal clientele there and I am confident they will continue to use their local airport," he said. Asked if he thought that Durham Tees Valley had a long-term future, Mr Hourcade replied: "I think so. I dont see passengers fleeing it as a point of departure. The concerns you hear are more about the economic stability of the airport itself. We do not wish to change the landscape there at all. There is no question that there is demand and we will continue to meet that demand.

"We follow the customer. If there was any sign of an opportunity to develop our services from Durham Tees Valley then we would react to that immediately, as we have done at Newcastle. It is the strategy of Air France KLM to feed the major hubs from regional airports.

[skyman771]

Re KLM
Their manner of their response must be difficult for management at DTV to take.:uhoh:
They have actually laid it out fairly clearly :-
"We follow the customer. If there was any sign of an opportunity to develop our services from Durham Tees Valley then we would react to that immediately..."
Someone is going to have to produce something to break a rather incestuous circle, that is creating this downward spiral in the airports finances.
So where to now ?

[taxi_driver]

I don't think there has been much imagination or a business plan, and this compounds the issues. The focus has been on limiting losses rather than looking at alternatives to increase movements and related aviation activities. The result is a barely functioning facility that cant cope with diversions or anything else that isn't planned weeks in advance.

Management can't see beyond the car park and the terminal for business opportunities. The runway, aprons, hangar are all options to be fully exploited. GA is unwelcomed, base training attracts eye watering charges even for loyal based operators, fuel costs are high so operators tanker where possible.

It is not a welcoming place for passengers or operators and the result is a prime example: The law of diminishing returns..

[Get me some traffic]

Taxi Driver, they are doing it on purpose. Peel want to close the airport so they can use the land. I really feel for the good people who work there and depend on the airport for their livelehood. The only thing keeping the airport open is Chobham and their military contracts. Sad days.

[taxi_driver]

I'm not so sure the land is either that useful or valuable? The population in the area is in decline, as is the employment and industry of the area, there are numerous brown field sites in line for redevelopment close by. Close an airport and the chance of attracting new investment in a given area declines further.

Is there really such a shortage of housing and business parks in Tees Valley?

Any truth that peel excluded portions of land from the deal with the Vancouver people?

[Robert-Ryan]

Peel excluded more than just portions of land in the Vancouver deal, they stole the entire South side of the airfield. People talk about the conspiracy theory as if it's still ongoing and it's not. Peel got exactly what they wanted and have no further interests in any of the three airports as far as the running of them goes. It's more or less entirely in Vancouvers hands now.

I've seen for myself that the present management / owners are doing all they can to turn the place around but the damage caused by their predecessors may turn out to be irreparable.

[CentreFix25]

they are doing it on purpose. Peel want to close the airport so they can use the land.

The word on the street is that the 737 that arrived for scrap has not yet been scrapped due to numerous hurdles (wether they were put there by the airport or not I don't know). Two or three other aircraft have gone elsewhere during this time.

Now if I were running that airport I'd be bending over backwards to get this working and have a positive bit of news around the place, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[N707ZS]

The 737 scrapping is supposedly been halted due to the lack of national enviromental procedures, it may also affect other airports/scrappers.

On the up side just to say that the airport can do it they managed to complete a daily flight to Calgary and back last week with an Airbus 330 and a 757F with some baggage...............roll the knockers!

[skyman771]

Taxi_driver
Management can't see beyond the car park and the terminal for business opportunities.
I was going to take issue on what at first appeared an unconsidered throw away comment, that is until I looked on the front page of the DTV website where upon review it was noted that c. 75%!! of the page was in one way or another related to selling car parking !!

[highwideandugly]

:ugh::ugh::ugh:Really sorry to burst your very fragile bubble..but I was listening the other morning when the Caribes A330 came in early...the airport wasnt even open..the aircraft worked newcastle and was told ..sorry DTV not ready..enter the hold!! now for your best customer...only extra customer(MOD) that isnt too good i would guess? But as others have said...they dont care. thats peel/vas not the staff.the airport infrastructure is such as to be almost non existant.:{:{

[skyman771]

..... But as others have said...they dont care. thats peel/vas not the staff.the airport infrastructure is such as to be almost non existant. :{:{
Wouldn't get too worked up, there is apparently plenty of parking space;)

[highwideandugly]

:confused: I was going to write something but like Peel and VAS..i have lost the thread,the plot,the purpose and the will to live .

BTW anyone on the outside looking in...dont let VAS touch your airport with a bargepole!

[Robert-Ryan]

Nothing wrong with VAS, they're trying, it's Peel and Peel alone that was the problem.

[skyman771]

Nothing wrong with VAS, they're trying, it's Peel and Peel alone that was the problem
Rather a sweeping statement, that Peel were inept, and that their judgement in supporting the sad individuals with fancy titles who ran DTV, and who in history will no doubt be ranked alongside those of "Nero" as to their achievments is totally accepted.
However VAS surely had to see what was coming in doing their due diligence on their acquisition from Peel Airports. After all was it not mooted that the prime reason of Peel to dispose of it's airport division (though not before time) was to move it to those that had greater experience in the running of airports, whilst leaving Peel to concentrate on what it did best :suspect:"Land developments":suspect:
Reality is more likely that DTV were thrown in as part of the "bundle" and that even VAS have met their match.
As an aside then it is interesting to note the future illustrious carreers NOT! of those DTV high rollers that were eventually found out.:E

[OMGitsDAVE]

Im actually getting really 'peeled' off at this...

Peel don't want to keep the community, they want money. It's always been the case, and without some kind of justification im not happy with it. DTV has the potential, but Peel make out as if it's not their fault when it is. They could do so much more. They could lower landing fees etc for trial periods, offer Northern Rail incentives to match these trial planes, and of course could do a large marketing campaign across Teesside - there's plenty of billboards, city-centre TVs etc, but obviously this airport doesn't appeal.

If this airport falls, its because of peel, no-one else.

[SWBKCB]

Peel don't want to keep the community, they want money. It's always been the case, and without some kind of justification im not happy with it.

What justification are you after, what do you expect a profit making company to want??

If the airport fails, is it not because people don't want to pay enough to fly from there?

[skyman771]

If this airport falls, its because of peel, no-one else.

To get this back on track in June 2010 VAS acquired a controlling interest (65%) in Peels Holdings subsidiary "Peel Airports:uhoh:
Prior to the acquisition, then Peel's fundamental problem at DTV was to allow the "Lunatics to continue running the asylum". All this continual banter as their land development interests at DTV is an aside as well as being purely conjecture.:ugh:
I've read so much spin in respect of this place including the "5 years bad luck!" quote. I'd prefer to replace the words "bad luck" with "incompetence".
VAS are now left with an almost impossible task of restoring DTV back to a position where it served 1 million plus pax.
At this time then the future of DTV as a commercial airport hangs on the continued support KLM.
Seems to me that any audit carried out on the current viability of DTV would have to consider "going concern" very carefully.

[North West]

Peel ran all three airports through a central team. All of the important stuff relating to airline negotation, route development and so forth was done by the same team that covered Doncaster and Liverpool (combined passenger numbers of 6.3m). The local airport directors were there to co-ordinate the front of house, the agencies and in general to keep the place running on a day to day basis. Blaming these guys for route development issues is utter rubbish, so find another scapegoat if you need someone to blame:ugh::ugh:
Maybe start with the people of the North East and ask them why they didn't use the services in sufficient numbers when bmi baby, Globespan, Wizz, Ryanair and Thomsonfly were all persuaded by Peel to offer services from DTV.

[highwideandugly]

Vueling announced new flights from cardiff to barcelona..if VAS/Peel have been doing there business..I reckon we should be next?? Lets be positive!! :D

[JSCL]

Well I'm always astonished that airlines like Wizz make slimmer routes work from these regional and less popular airports - maybe Vueling is going to open up loco Spain to them like Wizz did....

[skyman771]

North West
The local airport directors were there to co-ordinate the front of house, the agencies and in general to keep the place running on a day to day basis.
One has to presume from your position then the blame rests entirely on the local population, and that everyone else has done a great job !
Quite clearly your time in "Monte Carlo" is affecting your mind.;)

[North West]

Skyman

In reality the residents of Teesside are well served for local airports, the distance - access time to reach NCL for most of those living in Teesside is actually better than for many living in other parts of the country to reach an airport with that level of services. In addition those residents living to the South have other options. Given the demographics of the North East then it is well served for airports. Unfortunately it does seem though that although it is a bitter pill to swallow, history is once again suggesting that the region is unable to support two airports with similar aspirations and that there can only be one winner
.
So yes, as bmi baby, TUI, Wizz, Ryanair, Eastern and others found in the middle of the last decade, the local population didn't book enough seats or pay a sufficient price for the seats they did book, to make it worthwhile. If this were a management issue as opposed to a catchment & competition issue, Doncaster and Liverpool would have seen similar problems.

[bad bear]

looking at Waterford, they have one flight on Saturday, 2 on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and 4 flights daily for the other 4 days and the airport survives. Dundee has 2, 3 or 4 flights a day and seems to keep going so why would DTV have any problems given their current activity levels?
bb
ps anyone know what is happening at Dundee? The thread is dead.

[sarcon]

The court ruling on the case between DTVA and baby is due very soon, does anyone know when? This sure to be a very interesting one.

[N707ZS]

Think the court case finished months ago after an appeal at the high court, the airport/Peel won.

Next question is what happened to the £15 million?

Bad bear, it's only the knockers who want to see DTVA close for some sad reason.

[NorthSouth]

bad bear:Waterford, they have one flight on Saturday, 2 on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and 4 flights daily for the other 4 days and the airport survives. Dundee has 2, 3 or 4 flights a day and seems to keep going so why would DTV have any problems given their current activity levels?Waterford gets a government subsidy of €1.5m a year. Dundee is wholly owned by a subsidiary of the Scottish Government. Does that give you any clues?

DTVA is the same as a host of other airfields - used to be publicly-owned in the days when it was recognised that you can't make money out of running airports, now being run down to the bone by its private owners in a last ditch attempt to make the revenues match the costs.

NS

[paarmo]

Something is in the air (pardon the pun) at the Airport. Lots of meetings and confidential memos. Don't know if it is good bad or indifferent news but I would expect something to be announced shortly or early in the New Year at the latest.
I do know that Thomas Cook looked earlier in the year at having a winter programme but as they are operating a virtual skeleton service this winter it was not possible. Thomsons on the other hand are pleased with their yields on their last winter's programme.

[highwideandugly]

Well its certainly not aeroplanes!! Sorry :)

[paarmo]

It would appear that passengers on private charters etc have not been subject to Immigration or even Customs Controls for several months at Teesside. No wonder they keep on flying in.
Durham Tees Valley Airport says claims from Border Agency whistleblower are 'plain wrong' (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9363665.Email_leak_puts_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_at_centre _of_Home_Office_passport_row/?ref=mmsp)
Perhaps this was what Management were discussing in private. Their reponse seems well rehearsed and the memo was leaked to the Labour Party some time ago apparently.

[SWBKCB]

Well rehearsed and not actually addressing the points raised in the leaked e-mail...

[highwideandugly]

Had atelephone call from a mate just back from sunny Spain.He tells me the TOM flight he was on had to hold away from DTV and couldnt land as there was no firemen !!!

apparently a couple of other aircraft also had to hold.Now this wasnt 4 in the morning this was lunchtime.Can you beleive that an airport would run there services so badly ?
I remember they had a notam out about reduced fire services due staffing?

This will surely do the reputation a bundle of good!!!:ugh:

[highwideandugly]

Didnt think it possible...

DTV October figures

Passengers -34% (13298) thats 428 per day or 214 out approx(not much passenger tax revenue there then ?

movements -24.7% (369)

Take a bow VAS :D

[P330]

Of course its possible...

And logic tells us that the numbers will be worse for at least the next 5 months (barring any weather anomolies or new route announcements).

For November - March, we'll see one less 737 a week (Egypt) versus the same period last year and no Southampton operations. That can only translate into a further YoY decline in passenger numbers.

November/December may yet be a little more tricky to predict given the snow during that period last year and the lack of it so far this....but in good weather terms...its downhill for at least 5 months.

Whats more, if there are no new routes come the Spring, the decline YoY will continue as next spring/summer we'll lose Southampton and Turkey flights versus last year....in short until new routes come online the downard trend in passengers will continue until around August next year is my guess (which is when the Turkey flights stopped (I think?))....

None of this should be a surprise to anyone unfortunately....

[skyman771]

Whatever the trend, then the bigger picture is that in month when DTV recorded 13,298 pax, then in same period the competion recorded :- NCL 407,277 & LBA 242,948.
This IS the issue facing DTV where the competition is investing millions in improved pax / terminal facilities. Reality is that DTV is NOT an attractive proposition at this time to most of it's catchment area. There is no way that Peel/VAS or indeed anyone else is at this time prepared/able to invest large amounts on a longshot. In this market volume counts & should an airline come calling, then they will be facing significant competition in establishing routes.
The current situation must be approaching critical,as any business whatever industry that has to rely on one customer (in DTV's case KL) to survive is seriously at risk.

[Mike Tee]

We where in a local travel agent the other day considering a Med Cruise which sails from Barcelona. Last time we did a similar cruise we flew Teesside / Amsterdam / Barcelona. Even though the KLM link is still operational and they are accepting Teesside / Amsterdam reservations up to next summer our travel agent said that the cruise lines are not contracting any Teesside flights due the airport,s uncertain future. (they don,t want to get caught out by stranded passengers stuck at an airport which has gone bust). Very sad and annoying when we live 10 minutes from Teesside.

[davidjohnson6]

Anyone know what's behind passengers on the Amsterdam route in Oct 2011 from MME declining by 13%, when it rose by 4% at Newcastle, in comparison to Oct 2010 ?
Flight time change, capacity change, or something else ?

[GAXLN]

#1432 probably answers the question.

[andrewmcharlton]

What Skyman said....

If those figures were extrapolated asa flat line across 12 months (which isn't truly accurate but hey ho) that's the worst YoY since 1971. The fact that the prior 7 years figues to 1964 are from start up should be the ultimate doom laden warning.

You have to fancy that the tax and APD and improved facilities at LBA and NCL mean that unless something dramatic occurs the airport seems to have the death gurgle sadly. I just can't see airlines coming on spec, owners investing in light of those figures or PAX beating a path to the airport door. Needs a Euromillions rollover and some divine intervention?

[davidjohnson6]

I've had an idea to boost passenger numbers... tell the spotter and airplane geek community that this may be their very last chance to fly to/from MME and that they should book a flight to Aberdeen or Amsterdam *now*. The boost in passenger numbers will be so great, that airlines will then come flooding back to MME and open up new routes, saving the airport !

As they say in Hollywood films, it's a long shot but it just might work ! :E

[Piltdown Man]

MME has an option. That is to cut its costs. If you want to see an efficient small efficient airport you have to look at Linkoping City Airport. First of all, it's name is a give away. It is less than a five minutes from the city centre. So name the airport properly. Darlington Municipal Aerodrome would be an improvement but you'll probably find that Teesside would be better. Next, look at the staff. At Linkoping they have multiple functions. Loaders clean, check in, do marshalling, fire cover, and security etc. They can't afford to have people sitting in offices "managing". There is one small cafeteria and a self service shop. There are no facilities (except for clean loos) beyond security so all secondary revenues are generated landside which gives the place a bit if a buzz, even if just for one flight. But more importantly, you are also made to feel welcome.

However, at MME I get the impression that passengers are a nuisance and airlines are worse. Security treat people with contempt and crews as terrorists. And as you walk through the leaky, dirty, dilapidated, empty toilet of a terminal you wonder why you paid the £6 Passenger Facility Fee. I doesn't take long for you to realise that you could have driven a few miles more and gone to a real airport.

PM

[P330]

As a regular user of the KLM service, I know how bad that terminal is. Its now at the point where I cross my legs until I get on the aircraft and use the facilities there.....at least I know they're clean!

That said...as a business passenger....I want to spend as little time in the airport as I can and I remain happy to pay £6 to depart from a run-down shed and have a reduced commute than I would facing the traffic of the A1 and the longer queues at NCL.

Now, when I am travelling with family on holiday...that's a different story...then I want the facilities to keep the kids occupied!

[P330]

Saw a post recently about a Palma service next year on a Saturday. Looks like this is a replacement for a Thomson weekday service, so I presume this isn't an increase in capacity for next summer?

[Jamesair]

it's an inward/outward flight PMI -MME - PMI operated under AEA flight codes on Sat only during the summer 12 season. Alicante and Tenerife flights operated by Thomson a/c cease mid April.

[P330]

Thanks James. I guess my comment was about Palma versus last year...not the winter schedule. Last year we had one a week with TOM on a Thursday. Initially, I read the AEA comments that this was in addition to the TOM weekday service, now it seems that the AEA Saturday flight could be instead of the TOM weekday service.

[skyman771]

Mike Tee our travel agent said that the cruise lines are not contracting any Teesside flights due the airport,s uncertain future.

Mike, if true then this is as about as disturbing as it gets. Was this a national travel agent? or a more local operation who perhaps spend their spare time making their own ":=informed?" judgement.

However new operators look even more unlikely by the day, with Astreus now gone "belly up" & Thomas Cook under siege just to survive, as such then not the climate for airlines to be looking at opening new services out of DTV, or indeed any other UK airport for that matter.

I for one would have difficulty in finding any reason to dispute your travel agents judgement. I fear that one way or another it may in any event become part of a self fullfilling prophesy.:sad:

[Mike Tee]

Our Travel Agent is a well respected local with many years experience and has in our opinion, great knowledge of what's going on within the industry. So if what he told us is based on his "own spare time informed judgement" or indeed information from within the industry I just don't know. However whilst we where in the Shop he did bring up our proposed Cruise on the system and whilst flights have been contracted from Newcastle and Manchester, Teesside was ommitted. We could of course book our own flights to Barcelona from Teesside separately from our Cruise Holiday but that would leave us out on a limb in the event of flight delays (ships won't wait) or god forbid, Airport closure.
Personnally. I have found that for many years local Travel Agents have had to be poked and cajoled into even looking at Teesside as a possibility.
I can remember being in Callers Pegasus Flight Desk in Stockton enquiring about flights to Toronto. The guy immediately suggested Newcastle / Amsterdam / Toronto. "What about Teesside" I said, after all it's only 6 miles from my house !!. "Oh yes we can have a look". We flew from Teesside !!. Even back then it almost seemed like there was a conspiracy against Teesside.

[david.crosby]

does anyone know who the new director at DTVA. I dont. I think we should try to get the likes of ryanair, easyjet or jet2 in. Offer them cheaper fees and take the PFF off for them and you will soon see the benefits, Even 8-10 ryanair flights a week. 8 flights would mean 1512 pax. Its worth getting one LCC. Could just work

[davidjohnson6]

David Crosby:
Ryanair used to fly from MME to Alicante, Dublin and Gerona - possibly other airports as well.
Easyjet and Jet2 already have bases at Newcastle

What should MME do to entice Ryanair to return, or to give U2 / LS a reason to split their operation in the North East between 2 airports ? Would need to be something pretty significant (e.g. some hefty 'marketing' payment to FR) - I doubt reduced airport fees will suffice.

[highwideandugly]

The airlines have been told to cut the passengers in half that they carry in to UK airports on wednesday.
Apparently DTVairport are still trying to contact the two KLM passengers due in and ask them to spin up to see who will be the unlucky one!!:)

[Mike Tee]

Just been on the KLM Website looking at flights from Teesside to Bergen. Depart Sat 3rd Dec, Return Sat 10th Dec.
Teesside comes in at NOK 5012, Newcastle costs NOK 2329. Very similar departure times. Flight times using Newcastle slightly longer. So why the hell is Teesside so much more expensive.

[SWBKCB]

Because that's how KLM make more money. Would suggest that demand at that time from MME is stronger than NCL (i.e. it can bear the higher fares).

[Aero Mad]

Newcastle has a direct link with Eastern, and DTV doesn't.

[apaul]

The direct flight from Newcastle to Bergen is summer only. Even so, KLM has competition at Newcastle, but none at MME.

[highwideandugly]

More bad press today as the one KLM passenger returned to Amsterdam ,he was quoted as saying the departure tax was a joke and he would be writing to KLM to complain.He also said he didnt like the attitude of the staff member who wrote down his concern....ironically this only happened when he signed his name on the complaints form...Hans Ova Tacks,Arnheim.

[Northbound A1]

Reference the BMI compensation millions. It was paid to Peel who are waiting for the next stage of their master plan. Did anyone from the councils see the money????

Sheffield was the first regional field to go under Peels governance after being purchased in 2002. Its now a business park.

Watch this space as the plans have already been drawn up for the what will be built on the old runway. Will it be extra council tax from new houses and business units being planned.

Stage one will be a small Wynard followed by an Ingelby Barwick when the market picks up. Possibly a shopping centre.

The £6 tax was just the nail in the coffin for local travellers :(

Who actually received the BMI cheque at Peel and which account is it in, personal or business? Will Peel aim for Croft after DTV?

[highwideandugly]

Possibly ,but Nothbound has probably made a point..The new Housing Inititive from the
government throws up a lot of unanswered questions.Not living within the boundries...does anyone know what has been said locally about Housing plans for that area? any one have access to the local authority and their thoughts?
I know where i live we have had already a couple of public meetings and there are consultation documents out there for the future?

A few guys on here have always said that the future for DYV was housing..well it may just be a little step closer. Surely the losses can not continue and probably the kindest thing in the long run to put all out of their misery.

[Facelookbovvered]

What cash? an ex colleague who now works for Peel tells me that as of Friday no monies had been received from bmi, but talks were on going??

[Northbound A1]

Re the earlier post by N707ZS (#1423) what happened to the £15m as the case was settled months ago?

If it hasnt been paid who will it be paid to? The local council partners or Peel themselves?

The Sheffield Airport business park project was just the start of the Peel master building plan. Peel believe the councils couldnt run DTV without a partner.

Does any of the 6 councils what happened to the BMI cash, or where it is going?

[DTVAirport]

As far as I am aware no cash has been paid to anyone, last I heard bmibaby were appealing Peel's appeal.

[N707ZS]

The houseing companys are only interested in nice clean greenfield sites. The Stockton Councils recent future planning document only indicated land around Stockton, Eaglescliffe and Yarm.
I am quite sure if there was an oportunity the Southside at DTVA would be full of industrial units.

I heard the Tomson Tenerife flights are quite well booked with some being full.

[Northbound A1]

Stockton are only part of the airport equation. The councils know that they do not benefit from business tax on units, but housing brings in large revenues.

Lets hope the rumour over here in Darlington is wrong, but I'm interested in what happened, or happens, to the BMI multi million pound compensation money?

Are Peel more of a property empire or do airports matter to them? Anybody from Sheffield care to add anything about them?

I noticed Hugh has a few strings to his bow these days.
nebusiness.co.uk - News - Business News - Air chief Hugh Lang steps down (http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/business-news/latest-business-news/2010/06/24/air-chief-hugh-lang-steps-down-51140-26717053/)

[P330]

I won't enter the debate about housing, but one can't ignore the financial situation at the airport. Recent reports suggested from inside that it won't be allowed to continue idefinitely. Regardless of what we outsiders see as missed opportunities or failings; unless we see material financial improvement soon, either in actual terms or in future prospects, I would struggle to see a reason why the owners would pump in cash beyond next summer.

In summary...if we haven't heard of new routes/money making opportunties by the end of next year's 'busy' season, I can't see the airport being sustained for much longer thereafter.

All the while NCL continues to expand making it even harder for MME to develop the routes it needs.

Its the last chance saloon - lets hope someone has a grand plan which is about to turn around the fortunes.

[skyman771]

Been away for a few days & nice to see that there has been some activity on this site, though can't believe the amount of cr:mad:p that has been deposited here as to the old chestnut "land Development".
P330 thankfully has injected some sense into the previous posts where clearly no-one has a clue as to what is likely (if anything) to arise out of the current dire situation at DTV.
Whereas I have held the view that DTV in it's present format presents an unsustainable business model, there are obviously other more political elements in the equation. Way back on this thread, land development issue was introduced as a "pop" against Peel, as this was a prime activity of the holding company, the only other specific reference that I am aware was that in reference to development of the far side & the consequential proposed altering of the boundaries.
If anyone has a credible source as to any justification as to the site's suitability as to housing development then please clarify, otherwise further comment is rather pointless.
As to the question as to who gets the cash re the BMI compensation, it will be the Peel holding company that brought the action & if successful, there is not necessarily a business case that much of this will ever filter through to DTV as available funds for future development.
The key issue in all of this is that DTV is part of a group albeit a part that is not generating revenue. Whether it survives & in what format will be the group board's financial decision.
In the current ecconomic environment there are few "private" company's that are able to sustain funding to loss making ventures over the long term, & as for the public sector then we all know as to the governments attitude on this... Where does this leave DTV ?, I can't see that it can sustain many more blows andto have any chance of survival needs to radically improve it's business model, though ironically in practical terms it's future probably hinges on the Dutch !:(

[skyman771]

Northbound A1
..The councils know that they do not benefit from business tax on units, but housing brings in large revenues...,
Please explain, as I don't think you have a grasp of current legislation. Other than a potential 6 month vacant property exemption, then business rates apply on industrial units!

[NorthSouth]

needs to radically improve it's business modelwhich model would you suggest has any better chance of success in the current climate, given that Peel/VAS are presumably not interested in an airport which doesn't have any significant commercial air transport?

I suspect the only thing keeping them going at the moment is the significant slug of taxpayers' money that goes via the MoD and Cobham's calibrator and EW contracts to pay for hangar and accommodation rental plus landing fees.

NS

[Northbound A1]

Skyman1771, Thanks you for your interesting input.
Regarding business rates, the local councils do not collect any of that money, as all business rates goes straight to HM government without passing GO.
Housing on the other hand allows councils to generate and collect council tax, so they prefer the houses as opposed to units.
Land such as DTV is prime building land in the right hands with a view of the hills, but I dont think KLM will be interested in buying it.
If DTV had not pushed so many GA pilots out they might still have the international status. Its either Bagby or Fishburn for most GA pilots.
Thank you for the input about who will receive the compensation millions. Will Peel change the airport name back to Teesside with it all? as I believe it was BMI who insisted on the DTV name :ugh:
Its a shame the military can't be persuaded to move some operations to Teesside as it has a long runway, even if it is sinking a bit each year.
I was hoping once the Canadians became involved the field would pick up even if it was only cargo. The £6 tax was a shot in the foot for most travellers.

[skyman771]

Its a shame the military can't be persuaded to move some operations to Teesside as it has a long runway........
It depens upon what you call "long", as I would not call c.2,300M long at all. Certainly not able to deal with the longhaul operations suggested without significant weight restrictions.

[Hipennine]

Surely the contract in question was between BMI and the airport operating company ? If so, even if Peel Holdings owned all of the op co at the time, that doesn't give the holding company any beneficial rights to the assets of the ops co. Therefore, the right to the money would stay with the ops co, unless there was a side deal as part of the partial acquisition by Vancouver airports.

[SWBKCB]

Fears for future of Durham Tees Valley Airport - Business News - News - nebusiness.co.uk (http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/business-news/latest-business-news//tm_headline=fears-for-future-of-durham-tees-valley-airport%26method=full%26objectid=29924737%26siteid=84229-name_page.html)

[N707ZS]

The best bit.

Middleton St George Councillor Doris Jones, whose ward covers the airport, said: “James Wharton has campaigned for our airport for a long time and this worrying news brings home just how urgent it is that something is done to secure its long-term future.
“The last thing people in Middleton St George want is a new housing estate on the outskirts of our village. We must do all we can to secure Teesside airport’s future.”

This is from a woman who has tried her best to wreck any development at the airport. Forgot "James Wharton" who's he!

[SWBKCB]

Have a look at the Woodford thread - apparently the same thing happened there with the NIMBY's suddenly becoming supporters of all things aeronautical. Surely nothing to do with the thought that any significant housing development has to have an element of low-cost or "social" housing?

[Northbound A1]

Similar news paper page but with all the public comments at the bottom of the article. Makes interesting reading on how the public see things.

Is this the final curtain call by Peel Plc to push the councils out of any descision making?

Fears for future of Durham Tees Valley Airport - Local News - News - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2011/12/09/fears-for-future-of-durham-tees-valley-airport-84229-29924737/)

A sample of the public comments:
Wayne
1:40 PM on December 9, 2011
As an airport I have seen better in third world countries. The amenetys are horendous both in arrivals and departures. Now having to pay six pound for the pleasure as well? The security are the most ingnorant people I have ever met.
As has been pointed out if two planes arrive at the same time you que outside.
If it wasnt for work and the fact that it's only 10 minutes in a taxi for the red eye flight, I would never use it when you can travel a bit further and fly from Newcastle which is worlds apart from the sh1thole that is Teeside , sorry Durham tees valley airport.

Gasbag 12:41
It is blatantly obvious to a blind man that Peel have a deliberate policy to run down our airport. Look at the number of flights we have lost since they have been involved.
Peel own both Liverpool & Doncaster, both of which are booming. Losses at Teesside are offset against their profits and the compensation from BMI Baby no doubt found its way into their coffers.
I don't know the legalities of the share dilution, but surely the councils cannot just accept this and hand over a prime site to this bunch of crooks. Lets hope if it does close, they never receive planning permission to redevelop the land.

Goodcopbadcop 2:02
Have I got this story right, the local authorites, our local authorities have invested money, our money, taxpayers money in the airport and now the airport are "demanding" more of our money, taxpayers money to retain their current stake, which by association is our stake. Given that the airport made over two million pound loss last year, I have to ask is this a good investment. Its time the local authorities told the taxpayers just where they invest our cash and what we get out of it. I can see another Icelandic Bank Scenario on the horizon. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
:bored:

[DTVAirport]

Peel can't close the airport for 6-7 years or they will have to stump up £35 million to rehouse Cobham. As far as passenger operations goes though, well, it's clearly not looking good.

But regardless of what I think I'll do my best to support the airport until the end, people on this thread should think twice before posting as they don't realise how potentially damaging some of their comments are.

[highwideandugly]

Nice sentiments DTV.

Catch 22 however as you cant support what isnt there..i.e flights.

Where did you get those Cob figures from? are they in the public domain?
A little bird also tells me that the Fire school may be looking for other premises? Again possibly b.. house wall stuff but theres usually no smoke without fire(no pun intended)

It really rankles when you see on the Newcastle thread..even in times of depression ! and although only 30 miles up the road..they continue to introduce more flights.
Jet 2 Monarch etc. So what are they doing right that we are not?

As I have said before the basic infrastucture of the airport has gone now and I fear there is no way back(either will or money).

[Northbound A1]

Hopefully by bringing the whole mess out into the open on this site someone may point Peel in the right direction, before its all too late like Sheffield.

Look at the way G.A. pilots were pushed out by over pricing. DTV's loss, Fishburn and Bagby's gain.

An insider tells me that there was a scrap man looking over the 4 very large WW2 hangars recently. I dont think he was there to fix the roof.

Does anyone know the exact share figures between the 6 councils, Peel and whoever has a stake in the field?

How much did Peel origanlly buy their share of the field for?
I for one think Peel should share any compensation from BMI, it may help DTV (Teesside) stay in business.

[Northbound A1]

I found some of the answers in todays Northern Echo. (10/12/11)

Peel have been in secret talks since 2009 to obtain all the shares :eek:

Councils must find £4.5m to keep shares in Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9412730.Councils_must_find___4_5m_to_keep_shares_in_airport/)

[ILS32]

DTV Future
but regardless of what I think I'll do my best to support the airport until the end, people on this thread should think twice before posting as they don't realise how potentially damaging some of their comments are.

You say that you will support the airport but thousands no longer do so.You on your own can't sustain passenger flights at DTV.Why have the locals stopped using the airport?Once you get onto the downward spiral the routes decrease,passenger numbers drop,less flights.Its happening now and has been getting worse over the last few years.It can't all be down to bad management,but they haven't helped in the last few years with some of their decision making.Unfortunately DTV is situated between 2 expanding airports,Leeds/Bradford and Newcastle.Why are they doing better than DTV? There provide more flights and are continuing to expand their route networks. This then brings in other airlines who are prepared to offer new destinations that people want to fly to, so further expansion takes place. People may want to fly from their local airport but if there is no where to fly to they go else where.If DTV had managed to bring in a low cost airline.to set up a base maybe they wouldn't be in this predicament who knows.The future does not look good.

[pug]

If DTV had managed to bring in a low cost airline.to set up a base maybe they wouldn't be in this predicament who knows

Would you not say that heading down the route of attracting WW, and later Globespan to base at MME was a mistake?

The fundamental difference between MME and its competitors is that MME serves a small market, and the two airlines mentioned struggled to make the operation work. It appeared at the time that Peels' business model was to increase footfall considerably by attracting low-cost airlines using 737 aircraft, but it has been proven unsustainable from MME IMO. It also seems to be difficult for MME to attract new business due to potential operators already having significant operations at both LBA and NCL.

What I'm trying to say is, does MME offer anything to the Teesside passenger that NCL or LBA cannot?

[andrewmcharlton]

Some interesting and highly irrelevant banter.

The beneficiaries of the law suit could be anyone. We don't know who might have assigned their rights to the proceeds in all the various deals that have gone on, but one thing is for sure, if it doesn't have to be paid to the current operators they won't see a penny.

NCL and LBA have squeezed DTV out and other than those who live nearby there is little if anything that they can offer over their rivals.

The Military will never move there in a month of Sundays and I can't see how the airport can return to profit. There are no routes to fly to places folks want to go and without footfall and pax there won't be any.

Given the economy, the growth of LBA and NCL over the years and the complete decline of DTV, what, apart from blind optimism, can the airport operators do now?

[NorthSouth]

HW&U:what are they doing right that we are not?So many people on this thread seem to start from the assumption that the problem for Airport A is that Airport A's management are doing something wrong. The reality is, for a country with the economy in the state it's in, and especially for a place like Tees-side which used to be the bastion of UK heavy industry, there simply AREN'T ENOUGH PASSENGERS. In the past (before Peel came on the scene), local authorities had the resources to own and support airports. But now they don't so if they don't perform, they close. So it's not a question of what they are or aren't doing right, it's a question of what do you do if you're the owner of a business that has to make a profit or it goes bust. So it's not about the business model, it's about the amount of business.
the basic infrastucture of the airport has gone now and I fear there is no way backThe problem with airports is that it's not possible to abandon the "basic infrastucture of the airport" - ATC, fire, security, ops, they all have to be there if you want commercial traffic, and if you only have a little of that, your fixed costs don't get covered.
NS

[Get me some traffic]

This discussion is very narrow minded. Teesside Airport has a big advantage over its main rivals, Newcastle and Leeds, namely Chobham. FRA and FPL provide the core business at Teesside. This gives Teesside a head start over its rivals. However, Peel don't want a successful airport. All they want is the land. Peel were supposed to invest £20m, where is it? The road improvements came from One North East, not Peel. All Peel want is the land. They will close the airport as soon as they can. My feelings are for those who work at the airport.

[andrewmcharlton]

Teesside Airport has a big advantage over its main rivals

What planet are you on? One contract against 4.5million pax at NCL and 3million at LBA (or whatever the accurate number is)

Out of curiosity, what do you think Peel could use the land for in the current economic climate?

What are they going to spend £20m on that would produce any return?

[SWBKCB]

I agree - the Peel plan for MME was to do exactly what they did at Liverpool and Sheffield City (and what Stobart's want to do at Carlise) - develop the land for commercial purposes using the presence/development of the airport as leverage to get want they want out of the local councils in terms of planning (local politicians love having airports, so long as they don't have to pay).

If they can develop a successful airport as well, that's a bonus (so yes at Liverpool and no at Sheffield) but it isn't core to their plans it just gives them an advantage when dealing with planners ("you need to let us do this so we can pay for your airport"). What has happened to Peel is the property market has collapsed. As AMC says, if the airport closes what will they do with the land - is there a shortage of brownfield development sites in Teesside??

[Northbound A1]

Peel took 75% of shares for £500k!! with the promise of investing £20m.
Sounded good but was never going to happen.
The 6 councils failed to look at Peel as an operation and their core business.
Military do use DTV but only to move troop transports which take up time and room for kit. They do like to use ILS over shoots as well.
Peel started to move the goal posts years ago with the various excuses of not putting money in IF the passenger numbers didnt treble etc.
Staff who had been there years started to see the pattern in the excuses and began to jump ship for other ports.
The trouble with the current management is that the councils have handed the entire operation over for a song and they have nobody there to keep an eye on the running of the place.
If and its a big if, the operators were offered a good deal, Newcastle wouldnt be getting all the routes.
The £6 passenger tax was just another way of making the operators and public avoid the place like the plague. As others have said, no operators, routes, no public, no money.
What does this leave? Look at Peel, and see what they like to build.
Could a new Trafford Centre be on the cards? Thats a Metro Centre to the local people.
I can see only 3 winners in the current scheme of things if they do close it and build a large outlet or houses.
1. Peel,
2, Darlington, and a possible fight between Stockton and Durham councils over the scraps.
As another poster mentioned Peel sat back and watched One North East pay for the road infrastructure to be built.
Its a bit like a landlord who wants a tennant out, make it an unpleasant place to live in and hey presto you get what you want....cheap land and a lot of it between a few large boroughs.
Darlington Council should be ashamed of themselves making it known they wont fight Peel over the latest plans! Handing it to them on a plate.
I wonder why :rolleyes:

[davidjohnson6]

Northbound - you raise some good points. the only thing that puzzles me - is there actually sufficient demand for a large new shopping centre or lots of new houses, such that a major piece of building works would be profitable for a developer ? Ditto to building industrial units, warehouses or anything else that might use up a large area of land.

As far as I can tell, the area around MME has been having a tough time with regards to the economy compared to the rest of the UK for quite a few years. Building a shiny new shopping mall may create jobs during construction, but retailers will only move in if they expect the local to have plenty of disposable income for the years to come. Houses only get sold if there are plenty of jobs in the area paying significantly more than just the minimum wage.

In my opinion, the only way to get Teesside moving, is a big slug of cash from Westminster to get the local economy growing, as happened with Liverpool in the late 20th century. Might have happened in 2006 when UK plc could do no wrong, but not likely for the next couple of years at least.

[Northbound A1]

DJ6, House building is quiet at the moment, but shopping centres such as The Trafford Centre (Peels), The Metro Centre, Teesside Park, all do very well and town centres collapse in the process.

Its all about the land with Peel, and the lure of the £20m was a carrot that the councils couldnt resist. Nobody monitored what they were doing and they are using the DTV losses to offset their other commercial concerns. Clever accounting its called.

One point regarding the court case:
If BMI had the contract with Teesside(DTV) Airport and they didnt honour it.
Why should Peel Plc receive the money, without it going straight into the DTV Airport coffers to replace the missing BMI contract money??
Surely it belongs to the airport and its other share holders?

Question; how many acres does DTV cover? and how far does the £500k Peel paid work out per acre?

[N707ZS]

Shopping centres, houses, industrial units.
PPRune moderators please can we have the smilie that's rolling on his back laughing!

[skyman771]

Hmmmm.. things seem to be gathering pace, there are indeed a great number of issues that the conspiracy theorists can go overboard on.:E
Simply put, & however it now appears in retrospect, then Peel, probably did acquire MME with the best intentions in mind. They are however, as judged by their previous performance, "cute operators" who were undoubtedly aware of the potential value of the airport as development land at that time, which could at some date in future prop up their balance sheet with a view to covering future operating losses should such a situation transpire.
Their biggest initial mistake was probably to "leave the lunatics to run the asylum" and unfortunately for all concerned they did a great job !!!
With this background then things went from bad to worse. No need to go on & on listing their failings, but on more contemporary issues, then once again on all this talk that seems obsessively linked to land development, IF Peel was this way inclined, then why on earth should they sell out a significant percentage of their interest to VAS ?
The issue is down to bad management, they lost out to LBA & NCL for any number of reasons, some they could possibly have done more about, and others basically the deterioration in the UK economy and the demise of the North East's industrial basis, did the rest.:ugh:
Looking forward then as I have said on a number of occasions, then no business will continue to fund a loss making subsidiary indefinitely, they have quite claerly decided that "enough is enough" and are proceeding to look to their partners (the councils) to either "put up or shut up" as Peel do not see as to why they should continue to fund continued losses on their own.
The council's now find themselves in a very tricky situaution as in reality they now have to determine a current value of their investment and then act accordingly. What would be extremely interesting would be to have an insight as to how they would value their interest.:suspect:

[Northbound A1]

They have previous for it. ie Sheffield Airport.

Cant see the promised £20m investment from where I am standing over the last few years. Or was it £20,000 and we all misunderstood the cheap sale price of £500,000 :E

Durham Tees Valley Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport)

As for VAS, smoke and mirrors, a bit like pension money.

Skyman, Peel management have been in charge all along, thats why numbers dropped and operators are saying that DTV fee's are too high :suspect:

At least One North East who dont exist now have put the new roads in for them :ok:

[Hipennine]

Comparing the econo-geographic position of the MME site to the equivalent of a Trafford Park or Metro centre does not stack up. As you say, Teesside already has Teesside park, and that is struggling. The "success" of the Metro Centre and Trafford Park are because of close vicinity to a large populous hinterland combined with good road and public transport links. By contrast, the population of the whole of Tees Valley (if such a concept actually exists) is small vs Tyneside, and tiny cf to Manchester. Nor does Teesside have the financial and other service industries (nor the Nissans) that continue to buoy the Tyne and Wear conglomeration. It's the same basic underlying reasons why MME will always struggle as a scheduled air service airport.

And don't forget that the road system was a political sop after ONe had upset everybody by suggesting that MME should no longer be supported for pax services, and the region should concentrate solely on developing NCL. The political firestorm at the time was significant, but the economic logic was spot on.

[skyman771]

Peel management have been in charge all along, that’s why numbers dropped and operators are saying that DTV fee's are too high
Northbound A1This a sweepingly incorrect and inaccurate statement.
There is not room on this forum to address this more specifically as naming names is not permissible. However I think you may find that many of the "characters" involved predated Peel. You should also consider that Peel themselves under took major internal reorganization up to board level in attempt to address problems that they became faced with.
You need to look at things from a different perspective, IF the incumbent management were promised funds you state £20M! that were not forthcoming then they should have done something about it as it would have been they who had the opportunity, though clearly the maintaining of their job, would seem to have been the primary objective in what was a quasi public organization.

[numbnut]

MP demands answers from Durham Tees Valley Airport owners - Local News - News - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2011/12/12/mp-demands-answers-from-durham-tees-valley-airport-owners-84229-29930473/)

[P330]

My gut feeling here is that the majority owners have asked for money from the councils at exactly the time the councils are probably going to say 'we can't afford it'. The lack of cash from the councils 'could' then be sited as a reason for the business being unsustainable. Maybe a half disguised attempt to deflect some of the criticism away from Peel/VAS should any future significant decision be made....

[TSR2]

You may be spot-on there P330

[Northbound A1]

Skyman, Lets not mince words here, the GA pilots were pushed out by high landing and hanagarage fee's.
From what I've been told the various operators have looked elsewhere because DTV's management are asking for too much money in fee's.
If you ran an airline and Leeds offered me £2 per landing and MME (dtv) asked for £2000 per landing, who would you pick??

Its all about management and who are the management running the show from the Trafford Centre?

I for one dont want to watch another Sheffield Airport take place.

Peel wont be losing money from DTV losses, their accountants will just be offsetting it against the thriving Robin Hood airport.

Did you know that their other field down near Doncaster (Robin Hood) was once a large RAF base called Finningley, which had just had millions spent on it, including a new runway, when it was suprisingly sold to the private sector! Guess who the private owner is?
RAF Finningley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Finningley)

Hipenn, as for Teesside Park, its a VERY busy shopping centre. One which Stockton town centre could probably do without. I bet you also know a lot of people who travel 50 miles from the DTV area to the Metro Centre to shop. Its a demand thing ;)

[pug]

Peel wont be losing money from DTV losses, their accountants will just be offsetting it against the thriving Robin Hood airport.



All Peel airports are running at a loss..

Peel Airports losses double : Liverpool Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/liverpool-airport-news-050111.html)

All regional airports will continue to be squeezed by their bigger competitors, that includes all Peel/VAS airports. Its only going to get harder by all accounts.

[NorthSouth]

It may be worth remembering that the business case for Doncaster Airport was based on a huge proportion of the traffic - from memory it's around 80% - being simply stolen from Manchester, LBA, EMA and Humberside. That's a clear indication that we have too many airports. If Peel's vision of attracting lots of airlines away from existing airports - KLM and Humberside are a notable example - hasn't worked, and the 'new travellers' bit of the market has dried up, there's nothing left.

In this context DTV's clearly one of the 'stolen from' airports.

NS

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Rumblings that both MME and LPL are for the chop with KLM. :uhoh:

Edited to add: Also being reported on the NW Air News site :sad:

[highwideandugly]

oh dear its getting dangerously serious now.

I thought i read somwhere that KLM had just signed a 5 year deal with the airport?

also anyone know if Peel have put a deadline on the payment back to them from the councils?

[SWBKCB]

Doubt whether any contract with KLM has anything too punative in it - after all MME are hardly in a position to dictate terms.

On the other hand, what is the practical implications of any change in Local Authority shareholdings - is there really that much difference between 25% and 10% (or what ever the exact figures are)?

[P330]

I last had direct contact with KLM two months ago and was told KLM would be here whilstever there was an airport to fly into and yields remain as they are or above. In short...no plans to up sticks...

Of course this can change so I'm interested in seeing where this rumour really comes from? If true, then its curtains pure and simple.

[HeathrowDictator]

The times I've flown KLM from DTV the flights have always been near enough full...I don't understand why the time changed with the middle rotation from evening to lunchtime but I really do hope that MME can hold onto KLM.

There's a fantastic core of staff left at the airport, most of which have been there over 10 years and live and breathe the airport. I would hate to see it go under as it means former colleagues; friends, will once again have to go through the trauma of uncertainty.

RYR had good loads from MME, but as stated many times before, loads don't necessarily mean good yields and if the fees are still too high then there's not much the airlines can work with.

Unfortunately some poor management decisions in the past coupled with a huge economic downturn have compounded the issue...I just hope that VAS have a rabbit they can pull out of the hat (allbeit a large one is required!)

Just my 2p...

-HD-

[onion]

At last an MP who is going to ask a few questions, I know hes made a fuss a few times but this time the local population and businesses need to support him in causing Peel to answer a few question and while we're on it lets get the local councils and past managment staff from the airport answering some questions!
I do know in the past Durham council have blocked/made life hard for MME, could that of been due to their share of NCL?
All parties involved in running MME over the last 30 years need to answer some difficult questions!

[TimmyW]

I don't know where the thought that DSA is doing well has come from. It is probably in more danger than DTV! The number of movments per day is a joke. Just one outbound flight on some days, and the loss of flights for next year is even more alarming.

It appears the Peel and VAS airports are struggling big time. I think Liverpool will be ok, but I can't see much of a future for the other two.

[davidjohnson6]

All Peel airports are running at a loss..pug - interesting article. It seems to say that Peel airports as a whole are making a loss, but doesn't indicate which or how many of the airports are making a loss - although I would suspect that MME at least is making a loss. There is of course the possibility that LPL is making a small profit, but losses at other airports push the group into a loss.

TimmyW - you sound quite negative on DSA. I agree that DSA is not a particularly large airport - but why do you think it's in more trouble than MME ? It does at least have that one thing that all airports seem to crave - namely passengers. For the 12 months to Oct-2011, DSA has 829,079 passengers (more than either Exeter or Inverness), while MME managed just 191,865 according to CAA statistics.