DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5

[DTVAirport]

VentureGo, you've completely twisted that out of proportion, there are genuine and valid reasons for the axing of charter flights, a single weekly rotation for six months of the year was never going to be profitable, if an operator was prepared to base an aircraft then that's a completely different storey, but no operator in the present climate is going to do that, God knows the airport has tried to persuade them enough times!

You try running a business at a loss, see how far you get before you have to take drastic measures in order to survive!

[10 DME ARC]

DTV - I have thought long and hard on the charter turn away, I cannot understand the gains by turning away passengers?? You can cut duty free and mothball part of terminal and still handle a couple of hundred passengers three times a week?? Security etc can be reduced just take longer to handle, as there won't be duty free then nothing for them to rush to!! The flights were all during normal working hours so no problem there?
If for the airport is not making money on the 'deal' well that would be another thing!! Just put prices up and let Thomson decide if they want to continue, at least make someone else the 'bad guy'!!

[davidjohnson6]

DTVAirport - without necessarily indicating specific numbers, could you perhaps indicate the extra tasks or costs that the airport has to incur to service a charter flight, above and beyond those of a scheduled flight ?
The only thing I can think of is the extra temporary fire cover one might need for a B737 versus a Fokker 70

[N707ZS]

A new duty free shop of some sort is going to open.

[P330]

I have asked the same question and have failed to see a response I fully comprehend. So, armed with no facts, we can only assume and this is my assumption.

1) DTV Airport is right - they are losing money on charter flights and decided to stem the losses by cutting them.

2) The losses on a charter flight though can't be any more (materially) than the losses on the KLM/Eastern flights. There would be huge public outctry if Peel kicked out KLM and there could be a KLM contract in place which prevents Peel from doing that. I am in no doubt though that Peel loses money on KLM and Eastern but instead of cutting these to save money they are trying to subsidise them by making money elsewhere.

I make my assumption on (2) not knowing what fees the airport get from the landing and departing aircraft, but I would claim that those typically business passengers will spend a lot less discretional expenditure within the airport campus.

So, we are now in a waiting game as to passenger operations. None of us know the amount of money KLM makes on our flights. However, we do know that rolling passenger numbers have fallen in each of the last 12 months and the recent PR isn't likely to help. This could lead to 4 outcomes:

1) KLM numbers stabilise, KLM are making enough money and Peel can subsidise the losses from elsewhere - WIN

2) KLM numbers stabilise, but KLM are not making enough money and pull the plug when they want or when any contract expires. - LOSE

3) KLM numbers stabilise, KLM are making enough money but Peel can't subsidise from elsewhere - i.e. the plan fails. - LOSE

4) KLM numbers continue to fall beyond which is acceptable to them and they pull the plug when they can - LOSE.

3 out of those 4 outcomes result in the end of passenger operations at some point in the near future. The one that doesn't means:

1) The current trend on KLM passenger numbers has to STOP.
2) Peel have to successfully deliver on a promise with a zero per cent success rate so far.

All this adds up to the real likelihood that passenger operations will stop in the next 18 months. Continuing is possible....but the chances are becoming smaller as each month passes.

On a side note, I have information from a reliable source that tells me "KLM remain committed to the airport and have no plans to pull out, but cannot understand the direction the aiport are taking adding - if they can do that to Thomson, they can do it to us".

Interesting, if sad, times.

[10 DME ARC]

KLM/Eastern - Peel are playing a game of attrition now!! :rolleyes:

[Robert-Ryan]

Reference the Police hangar, they're waiting for the foundations to set, apparently they have to be rock solid and it takes a good few days.

Regarding the master plan, my understanding is the first thing to be built will be one of the hangars for AVIATION use, adjacent to the terminal, with it's intended purpose being for Weston and their bizjets.

[DTVAirport]

I'm not familiar with all of the details, but the cutting of charter flights was something to do with staffing levels, to handle that one charter flight per week I think the number of staff required was triple that of KLM/Eastern/Flybe, but, for whatever reason, the staffing levels required for the Thomson flight had to remain at that level all of the time.

There's people on here that should be able to explain it better and I think it may be in the master plan.

[racedo]

DTV a nice little airport that have used on a couple of occasions but big question is at what level do PAX numbers have to drop to where better just to shut the doors ?

Has management decided a base line number ?

The opening a new Duty free shop..............its just shop in an airport unless you travelling external EU and believe that is limited.

[inglebyboro]

A dark day

[Robert-Ryan]

DTV Movements website is showing Cobham Flight Inspection as leaving to Bournemouth. Not sure why, I'm guessing if it's not in protest at the parachute drop zone then it's internal politics (they haven't always seen eye-to-eye with Cobham Aviation Services).

This is the second time in about two years they've announced their intention to leave, the first time around they simply didn't so they may not again? What worries me is if one can go so can the other, although CAS have tried before but as they found out it wasn't as easy as they thought it was going to be.

Edit: It could also be only temporary over winter if they're concerned about snow closures, but then they stayed last winter??

[P330]

No details yet to see but the headline is "leaving", rather than heading away for a "couple of weeks". Do we take this to mean leaving for good?

If that is the case, then the uphill battle to subsidise passenger services with other income just got worse. Cobham get a big mention in the recovery plan they put out last month.

A blip? A misunderstanding on our part? A house of cards?

Yikes.

[HH6702]

Xmas holidays didnt they leave 2 winters ago for around 2 weeks

[DTVAirport]

Yes they did but if it's just for the winter why would one leave and not the other? They must not have taken the decision lightly, since if they're operating from Bournemouth their transit time / fuel costs will increase.

[P330]

A bit of misunderstanding on my part, what is the difference between the two operations then? Is the suggestion that just one half is going?

Didn't appreciate there were two sides to the Cobham MME operation.

[skyman771]

Isn't the master plan just a sideshow?
It has to be adopted in one form or another, as the consequences of non adoption are worse than those of adoption, for all those, other than Peel that is.
Any how in whatever form the plan is adopted, then there is no saying that Peel will continue to adhere to it, at least in the format as initially presented.
In being rather cynical, then the eventual outcome will purely be that which is most financially beneficial to Peel, and that may, or may not, include the provision of Air Transport services.
The point is that as the provision of Air Transport services are currently "a loss making activity" then there may be a view amongst the "hawks" within the Peel organisation, that continued investment in this particular area, is unjustifiable...:suspect:

[N707ZS]

One Beech 200 and one DA-42 is what it is, maintenance is done in Germany and Gamston. They even get charged to park in the hangar at DTVA. The Beech 350s have been Germany based for some time.

[DTVAirport]

The master plan is not a side show and the first of the new hangars will be erected in the spring.

P330, there is Cobham Aviation Services (Falcon 20s) and Cobham Flight Inspection (B200 & DA42), it's the latter operation that are allegedly leaving.

The damage is minimal given they only account for five or six movements a week these days but that's not the point, lost business is lost business, though I'm starting to think this one may be out of the airports hands.

[jetstar.8]

Downward Spiral Continues

[P330]

Noted, thanks DTV Airport. :)

[TSR2]

I like this quote:

“People have been very interested and wanted to have discussions. One chap stayed for an hour.”

[Jamesair]

Once the 400 houses have been built and occupied, it will probably make any expansion of flights at the airport impossible, with the main objections coming from the new residents (noise, pollution etc.). They will probably object to existing aircraft noise.

[skyman771]

Jamesair
Once the 400 houses have been built and occupied, it will probably make any expansion of flights at the airport impossible, with the main objections coming from the new residents (niose, pollution etc.). They will probably object to existing aircraft noise.
My sentiments entirely:D
DTVAirport
Your stoic attitude in support of everything put in front of you by the owners is commendable, if not a little naive. Errecting a few hangars is not an issue either way as they could be turned to a multitude of uses. Perhaps you may obtain a greater understanding of the owners intentions if you were to address their attitude to the granting of leases to existing aviation related activities......
As for those attending to view the masterplan then I suspect that there is a predominance of local residents anxious to secure comfort that their own peaceful environment is not compromised, and actually has very little to do with actual operation of a working airport. Indeed they would presumably be the same nimby's who would turn out IF fortune had been different in that the master plan presenred was actually one of expansion.:ugh:
I'm starting to think this one may be out of the airports hands.
& now what are you coming up with ?, surely not something along the lines "It's not our fault!"

[Northbound A1]

Has anybody heard why the flight inspection part of Cobham are moving south?

Will the falcons be following?

Was it too expensive to stay at DTV or was there another reason?

[DTVAirport]

skyman771 - I only support the airport when they give me reason to, if they give me reason to criticise I will not hesitate, and that's bearing in mind they know who I am on here and I'm well aware they can and do read what I post.

I'm not commenting on the Cobham situation until I know the reason, I'm not saying it's not the airports fault as you suggest, I was referring to what Robert mentioned when he suggest in-fighting at Cobham as a *possible* reason. One thing I do know for sure, Cobham Aviation Services have no plans to leave at this time.

Could you please elaborate on the 'their attitude to the granting of leases to existing aviation related activities' comment?

[davidjohnson6]

Beafer - photo in the Evening Standard today showing Cameron on the train to Darlington

[highwideandugly]

The truth has returned...how was internment?

The hangers(9)

Is this speculative build or have peel got companies in mind who are able/willing to finance up front before the"master plan" gets the goes ahead? Quite unlikely that peel will put their hands in the pocket..they haven't so far....:ugh:

[F4TCT]

Bit of taxiway and runway threshold which was the car park for the spitfire pub.

otherwise, bugger all to show, not forgetting a few a hangers.

[N707ZS]

Didn't think a developer has been chosen for the proposed DTVA site never mind the road names.

Thornaby airfield, this is where Teesside industrial estate is a number of buildings still survive towards the town centre.

Ingelby Barwick was green field farm land.

[DTVAirport]

Peel will have nothing to do with the housing estate so won't be thinking of names, they're merely providing the land, thereafter it will be in a third parties hands.

[skyman771]

Northbound A1
Thanks for keeping this dialogue tight, sometimes one has to state that which is not obvious to some.
For clarity the site owner has 100% control over who is appointed developer, which deals with any conflict of interest issues i.e there won't be any !
As for street names, then again the initiative lies with the site owner, who would in a normal process approach the local authority planners with suggestions & enter into a dialogue thereafter, as local authority approval is required. Subject to conflict of similar names nearby, then they should be sympathetic to names that have relevance to previous use of the land.

[highwideandugly]

Quote...such bject to conflict of similar names nearby, then they should be sympathetic to names that have relevance to previous use of the land.

Peel Place,
Dead end street,
The Peel way,
Non aviation avenue,
Runway gone row,
Sold short side
Conned you all crescent
Peel Parade
Losers Lane
Taxed out Terrace

Any additions and ideas welcome ;)

[Northbound A1]

Wonder if the houses will cost more near to where the 3 DTV ghosts usually appear? That should give the sales team something to talk about ;)

Whats the time scale for the new houses to be built? Is it 2014 or 15?

[Jamesair]

November pax.......11,710 - 16%
rolling year pax......160,580 - 2.7%


Amsterdam 8,419 - 3% (8653 nov.12)
Aberdeen 3,201 - 3% (3119 nov.12)

[P330]

Indeed Jamesair, another month of KLM reductions. When I suggested the range of outcomes a few days ago, it was clear to me these reductions had to stop soon if we were to have any chance of seeing continued passenger services and sadly, they're not. Of course, even if the reductions did stop (or reverse), we're far from guaranteed a future because of the other pieces of the jigsaw which have to fit into place.

Here is an update on the detailed KLM figures - they're only going one way.

Rolling KLM Data:

Nov 13 - 96,503
Oct 13 - 96,737
Sep 13 - 97,118
Aug 13 - 97,349
Jul 13 - 97,501
Jun 13 - 97,811
May 13 - 98,197
Apr 13 - 98,555
Mar 13 - 98,790
Feb 13 - 99,219
Jan 13 - 99,912
Dec 12 - 100,700
Nov 12 - 101,119

[Jamesair]

That is a loss of 4,616 pax over the rolling year, which is quite a sizeable number. I do feel that KLM will keep the route going as long as possible because of the transfer traffic but there must come a time when viability has to be considered, then they will have to decide whether this traffic would travel via NCL or be lost.

[HOODED]

Is it just me or is one of the things that stops aviation development, particularly in the UK NIMBYs? So lets build 400 houses on the airport so we can have 400 families to object to the airport being used for flying creating noise in their new homes?

[SWBKCB]

MP calls for residents' concerns about multiple planning applications in a Darlington village to be heard (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10874422.MP_calls_for_residents__concerns_about_multiple_pla nning_applications_in_a_Darlington_village_to_be_heard/)

[Jamesair]

All that new housing for NIMBY's !!! might as well start putting up the shutters at the airport.

[Northbound A1]

Re the DTV controlled airspace, is it active when the airport is closed i.e. after 10pm, and what happens if the number of aircraft using DTV reduces even further?
Will there be a need for the airspace surrounding the Teesside area?

I ask this because the Doncaster thread has some questions about their controlled airspace and they have more planes landing than DTV.

[SWBKCB]

The top-performing airports in the study were found to be Durham, Humberside, Glasgow, Manchester, Robin Hood, and Liverpool. All offer free pick-up and drop-off

The most expensive hourly charges are found at Luton, Leeds Bradford and Cardiff. All three airports charge fliers £5 an hour, while visitors to Durham Tees Valley, Doncaster Sheffield and Liverpool John Lennon are charged £4.50 an hour.

Airport drop-off charges on the rise - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/10529851/Airport-drop-off-charges-on-the-rise.html)

[TeetPongPlug]

It would be sad to see any job losses, however the airport management need to have a hard look at how they treat pax. The customer service in some aspects of the airport is appallingly bad.

If the master plan that beafer keeps plugging is correct then the shambolic treatment of pax by the airport is nothing more than a top driven scheme to push footfall away from the airport. The airport appears to be winding down, and closure IMHO appears inevitable.

Who are the flymo boys that biffer mentions ? Sorry for my lack of thread awareness but there's a lot of posts.

Ginger.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Flymo = Police Helicopter

[shamrock7seal]

Perhaps the airport can talk to Cityjet about setting up a base.

Tongue in cheek of course.

[highwideandugly]

Well what is the coming year going to bring?

Obviously no new schedules.
Movements down due to this years flights dropping off the yearly total.In addition the loss of Cobhams calibration fleet.

Lack of MOD flights.



Figures therefore will stay around the same 150K ish or maybe a slight drop(no holiday flights)

More controversy over the Peel master plan.

On the positive...what new business can Peel attract with their current attitude?
Maybe more work for Sycamore and thats all I can think of..

pretty depressing really?:ugh:

[highwideandugly]

Fire cover,Interesting point and one which I,m sure someone will answer?

Looking at the excellent DTV website it shows restricted opening hours for the last week .Open,closed,open again etc. I wonder if Peel think this is the way forward? A look back at the years movements especially weekends in the winter...it would save them an awful lot of money??

No need for ATC or fire cover..

[SWBKCB]

Already been discussed - not an issue.

I would imagine that the day you can't fly a helicopter from somewhere without fire cover is the day that people stop buying helicopters...

[davidjohnson6]

The police in the UK (as with much of the world) are frequently licenced to do things that are forbidden to the rest of us. Furthermore anyone trying to make a complaint or bring a claim in the courts against the police is likely to be met by stonewalling and coverups. You will need to have a very good barrister acting for you if you want to win.

The police are going to operate their helicopter wherever and whenever they like, and talk about fire cover is not going to stop them.

[horatio_b]

There must be quite a number of police helicopters operating out of airfields whilst they are closed and have no fire cover- Barton and BAe Warton for example.

[Yellow Sun]

Beafer

This includes the police, they are supposed to have someone who can use the equipment in case of a crash or fire. Trained by CAA approved firemen.

Not difficult, personnel must have training in the use of the equipment and must be available when the helicopter is departing or arriving. The ops officer, spare observer or engineer (if on site) can all cover this role. That's how it's done. You can read all about it in CAP 789 Ch 21 Annex 3 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20789.pdf).

davidjohnson6


The police are going to operate their helicopter wherever and whenever they like

No, the police will operate their aircraft in accordance with the current regulations. Have a look at CAP 612 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP612.PDF). In the past they have been prosecuted for not doing so. I was personally involved with one such case.

YS

[N707ZS]

Try asking these questions on the Rotorheads forum, perhaps the mods might move it.

[10 DME ARC]

UK Police heli ops are non public transport and so do not need fire cover, just like a pure freight flight do not need fire cover. Unless the 'company' flight manual says fire cover needed then non public transport can land take off with zero AFS CAT!

[MerchantVenturer]

Fair point N707ZS. I've now re-phrased it as a comment specific to DTV as under.

I understand that British police helicopters are flown by non-police officers most, perhaps all, former military helicopter pilots as was the case in the recent Glasgow tragedy.

I presume the police helicopter pilots using DTV are such people.

Given that they are professional pilots and highly experienced it's most unlikely in my view that they would be prepared to fly if they believed that fire or other regulations were not being met.

[skyman771]

Highwideandugly

Figures therefore will stay around the same 150K ish or maybe a slight drop(no holiday flights)
More controversy over the Peel master plan.
Seems to me there is a significant drift off topic, relevant as the continued operation of the police helicopter may be, it seems to me to be a complete sideshow.
Surely the main issue has to to be as to whether the operation of DTV as an active airport can remain viable is the fundamental issue.
Now I have seen all this "propaganda" put out by Peel as to the master plan, but what one isn't shown is the BUSINESS PLAN to support this viability. This should be a pretty simple task for Peel, after all the variance in the likely no. of flights & pax for the future YoY is somewhere "arround Nil" based on current 150k pax p.a. level. Thus as regards future revenue then this is likely to be fairly fixed, as airport charges are known & future overheads & staffing presumably also now identifiable.
Thus leaving out the finance costs (incl Peel Group overhead charges:E), then Peel should be able to put out a commercial case to support their stated interest in keeping the airport in operation as a viable entity in itself. Indeeed it is they who continue to state that this is the purpose of downsizeing.
My guess is that the figures don't add up & in reality there is a substantial subsidy required to eliminate an obvious operating loss.
Which goes right back to the beginning to the question "Why would an aggressively commercial organisation such as Peel throw any subsidy into a loss making activity?, if there are :suspect:other options:suspect: open to them.

[OldManJoe]

Beafer, you do spout some crap on here. If you're that interested in how the Police Air Support Unit operate, instead of asking the man in the village who is so far behind the latest CAP documents, why not give them a call and ask them. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to put your mind at ease and you'll get the answer from the horses mouth rather than the horses arse.

To answer one of your questions; yes there is someone at DTVA who monitors what goes on at night. They are more than competent in calling 999 and having the local authority RFFS attend any incident.

As above RFFS would have done naff all for the Glasgow incident.

[highwideandugly]

To go along with all the losses from the last few months..it looks like the MOD have also had their fill of DTV. The usual Calgary flight operated from Newcastle today..the end of an other era??:ugh:

[DTVAirport]

You may be correct there highwideandugly, but it's worth noting Newcastle have always had the occasional MoD charter as well.

Must admit though, my first thought was should that have been ours. Still, it's a charter flight and charter flights we no longer handle sadly.

[10 DME ARC]

MOD Flight rumour I heard was it was turned down by MME as too many pax's ?? Guess will need terminal and customs????

[N707ZS]

Might be worth asking DTVA management if they send a representative to the Friends group AGM on Friday.

[Robert-Ryan]

Northbound A1, OldManJoe's comments are as valid as any on here, he talks more sense than most.

Given the near-identical tone and style of your posts, dare I suggest that you and Beafer are in fact one and the same??

[davidjohnson6]

I read the article in the Echo. I can understand local concerns about school places and the GP surgery. However, the situation remains that DTV airport is in a dire state and unlikely to last as a commercial passenger airport for much longer - it's certainly not going to see big growth in passenger numbers. Demand for freight seems low (especially with no Govt money being forthcoming) and fees from a police helicopter are pretty small.

What would the residents of Middleton St George like to see happen to the airport and the land it currently occupies ? Please give a realistic answer - either Peel will want to develop it into an alternate use or sell it to a developer who will do the same. It's not credible and not in the local interest to say that the land should just be left vacant.

[SWBKCB]

Peel want it both ways - why should the local residents pay because Peels business plan has failed?

[Robert-Ryan]

I don't care enough about this forum to create a second account, frankly, I don't know why I bother keeping this one half the time! Keep clutching at straws Beafer!

[OldManJoe]

Sorry Beafer, only one account on here for me. I couldn't give a flying f*** what you think, or your man in the village or the kitchen for that matter.
Best not get too 'abrasive' or the mods might jump :)

[10 DME ARC]

MOD Charter - Can confirm MME turned it down and so was put out to tender to charter agents from either LBA or NCL, NCL won.

[flybar]

UK Police heli ops are non public transport and so do not need fire cover, just like a pure freight flight do not need fire cover. Unless the 'company' flight manual says fire cover needed then non public transport can land take off with zero AFS CAT!

The Police Helicopter covering West Yorkshire operates from a purpose built base next to the M1 at Wakefield where there is no fire cover - and never has been!!
No different to your business man, who has his own helicopter parked next to his house.

[SWBKCB]

Branson? Never trust a hippy... :suspect:

[HH6702]

What's he going to do???

Let's base an A320 little red and start 10+ routes to Spain, Greece summer only.
He will make no money by doing so.

[Lancelot37]

Never trust a hippie! You mean one who has become a billionaire who builds profitable companies then sells them on and makes more more money. Surely better than a company who appears to want to run an airport into the ground in order to make more money by selling it down the line for housing to make a rich man even richer, or so it seems unless someone knows better.

[davidjohnson6]

The response (if there is one) from Beardie will be that he's focussing very much on transforming Virgin into being a world class rival to BA but thinks DTV is an excellent project *for someone else to engage in*

Why even bother imagining anything will come of talking to Branson... ?

[Jamesair]

A bit of good news for a change for December pax numbers.

AMS 8061 up 20% and ABZ 2164 up 6%

Total pax traffic for the month was 10,771 down 10.5% which is not so good

[davidjohnson6]

Passenger numbers:

1971 - 136,000
1972 - 162,000
1973 - 212,000

2011 - 192,410
2012 - 166,251
2013 - 159,311 (plus maybe 1,500 in transit)

Given the loss of charters and assuming no major changes, one might expect DTV in 2014 to perform at roughly the same level as (or perhaps slightly better than) 1971, the year that the pound was decimalised.

Plymouth airport in 2009 had 157,933 passengers. In April 2011, Plymouth's owner published notice of airport closure.

[P330]

Indeed, the first positive news in a long time. A material increase on last December and the first rolling 12 month increase for around 13-14 months. That said, last December's number was incredibly low, but still, a positive figure for once.

Now...will it continue....?

[highwideandugly]

yes good figures but cant compare to last December as the service was decimated with multiple cancellations for what ever reason last year?

seems we are settling around 155K or maybe slightly less for 2014? still not good.:ugh:

[SWBKCB]

I think the battle about whether MME will pay it's way on pax alone (and the owners certainly think not) has been lost, so it needs to be looking to other sources of income.

The arguement now is whether the plans being put forward are the right one's, and whether they will lead to air services (or any aviation) activity being retained.

Personally, with the planned location of the proposed housing, I don't think Peel are serious about retaining regular airline services

[DTVAirport]

I know there are a couple of other airports in the country that have built houses but it's a rare thing, certainly most if not all airports have built industrial and business units to boost income.

[jetstar.8]

Peel may sell the land to a builder for houses
but the builder still has to get planning permission from the local council there is no guarantee the builder will get permission the locals may lodge objections and house may not be built or the council may just refuse

[davidjohnson6]

The land is worth a lot more with planning permission than without. Peel will either apply directly or the contract for sale on the land will have a clause saying the sale is void if there is no planning permission. Completion date will be set at 3.5 months after planning permission is granted to allow for judicial review or central Govt calling in. Nothing a half competent lawyer can't handle

[davidjohnson6]

If the local council chooses to give planning permission for houses to be built, they will need to be very very careful to ensure that the money Peel get from the house building is formally tied to the continued operation of a public use airport and all the infrastructure that goes with an airport (e.g. fire cover, ATC, etc...). If Peel were to break the link, the clause should stipulate some significant penalty that Peel must pay to the council.

Without a formal linkage, it would be very easy for Peel to take the money from selling the homes, and then after 3 years say that actually the airport still isn't viable anyway and want to sell more land for other development. 200 more houses, then another 300 more houses, then another 100 more houses, etc etc....
The result would be substantially uncontrolled development of the land and the loss of a commercial airport.

The alternative is for the council to admit the airport is non viable right now, and let the whole airport site be redeveloped on a large scale in a controlled way that substantially benefits the local area and residents.

[SWBKCB]

Similar points to those made by DJ6 have also been made by NECC

Durham Tees Valley Airport plans get backing of commerce chiefs - Hartlepool Mail (http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/business/durham-tees-valley-airport-plans-get-backing-of-commerce-chiefs-1-6380570)

Peel make the point in the masterplan that the profits from housing are needed to fund the the other investment required, so for the linkage to be formalised makes sense.

I'm not against housing on the site, but don't think the site chosen is compatible with keeping the site open for aviation long term. The only other comparison I can think of is Blackpool where the housing is on the far side of the airfield from the terminal etc, retail/industrial use by the active areas.

[mmeman]

Looks like the last ABZ-MME-SOU and return tonight - Going via LBA next week - MME gets a Saab 2000 all to itself on a Sunday evening - Arr 19:30 departs 20:35.

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Just a quick Good luck message to all Calibrator Pilots losing their jobs as things transfer to BOH. You are an amazing bunch doing a very difficult job. I left FRA/Cobham several years ago to go into the airlines and honestly it was the best move for me, even though I didn't realise it at the time. It will work out in the end however hard things may be in the immediate future.

Gutted to see one of the best jobs in aviation destroyed.

Again Good Luck.

FPS

[TSR2]

Airport closed due to staff shortages today.

A bit mis-leading. The statement says 'Closed 09.00-09.30'

[davidjohnson6]

How much traffic is there likely to be at 9 am on a Sunday morning in January anyway ?
Is it possible there was a screw-up with some roster or someone had a flood at home and couldn't make it to work at the normal time ?
Yes, in an ideal world everything should run perfectly but at a tiddly airport run on a shoestring like MME it's not affordable to have backups for everything.

What was the impact of the 30 mins closure ? How many diverts ? How many movements didn't take place ?

[Jamesair]

Looks like the first arrival was KLM from AMS at 0956, so not a problem as far as I can see.

[highwideandugly]

Yes but what message does it send out to the rest of the aviation world?

However I started writing this and thought..no new message as everyone knows the whole set up is a shambles?

I also see one of the flight traing schools has a dispute with the airport...I suppose we can guess what that is about:ugh:

Wonder how many other disputes are bubbling under the surface...ah..the master plan!!!

[SWBKCB]

I also see one of the flight traing schools has a dispute with the airport...I suppose we can guess what that is about

One has ceased trading this week (the one he's owner has had an interesting past) - same thing?

[Jamesair]

Things seem to get from bad to worse, so that will mean even less flying!

[TSR2]

Whats misleading about that

Your post could be read to infer that the airport is closed today, as in all day.

[Mike Tee]

Agree, that's just how I read it. Mayby one should read back one's post before jumping to defend with such vigor.

[Robert-Ryan]

I'd love to elaborate further but let's just say the airport are in the right regarding the flying school and SWBKCB hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the owners past.

The airport are trying to re-build confidence within the GA community and given the owners name is notorious country-wide, they could well do without a person like that on-site.

[SWBKCB]

Work begins at Durham Tees Valley Airport | Tyne Tees - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/update/2014-01-27/work-begins-at-durham-tees-valley-airport/)

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

I did a lot of flying out of teesside and as I far as I was aware, the only flying school left was Durham Tees Flight Training after it bought out Eric Reed and acquired St George Flight Training.

I hope DTFT is not the school that you are discussing as the CFI there is someone that I have ultimate respect for.

Was it a new start up and if so, who was behind it???

cheers

FPS

[N707ZS]

FPS, DTFT I think they call it is still open and going strong.

The other one with the problems has connections with a school at Sheffield that also had problems. We all thought the burger man on here used to cook in the cafe. Sure someone will come along and spill the full story soon.

[Robert-Ryan]

No it's not Durham Tees Flight Training, those guys are the very best.

Again, I don't want to say too much (well, I do, but you know how it is!), but if you were to Google the owners previous company, Cloud 9 Aviation at Blackpool, you'll find out all you need to know, in fact, I think there's an extensive thread on that shambolic operation somewhere on this forum.

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Thank god DTFT are still going!!:ok::ok:
Cant recommend Dale and the team enough

I appreciate the need to be careful with what is divulged but as soon as you mentioned blackpool, all became clear!!!

cheers

FPS

[Robert-Ryan]

Until now I thought he was simply a con-man, but reading those threads makes you realise just how much of a criminal he is, I've heard he was visited by two lot's of bailiffs, one lot the airport sent and another lot the firm that maintained his aircraft sent.

He has/had a lot of supporters, people who banged on about how he was trying to be the saviour of the airport (yeah right!) and everyone should start listening to him blah blah blah, I hope they read these threads and weep.

[OldManJoe]

Is anyone surprised its happened again. Guess they'll be no more Beafer Burgers or 'man in the village' now that the place has a bailiffs notice nailed to the door.

Wonder how many poor sods have lost money this time, and where will he pop up next?

[N707ZS]

Don't forget he married Miss Pigg who is the registered owner of the Pa 34 which is currently parked on stand 9 minus one engine.

[SWBKCB]

How did Peel manage to obtain DTV and 250 acres for £500k?

This has been explained a number of times on this thread - the airport needed investment and the councils didn't have enough money to do it, so offered the airport up for sale.

[Lancelot37]

Sale? More like gave it away! The Councils should be tasken to task. It was worth millions.

[SWBKCB]

It's worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it - don't remember there being a queue.

[Lancelot37]

I didn't hear that it had ever been put up for sale, did I miss something?

[DTVAirport]

How did Peel manage to obtain DTV and 250 acres for £500k?

Perhaps the answer is the same one you got the previous five or six times you asked that question in as many months? :rolleyes::ugh:

[DTVAirport]

Exactly - the questions have never been answered, probably because no sod knows; in the very unlikely event the newspapers can find a conclusive answer then bring the subject back up as it will be relevant, but until then, stop clogging the thread up with what is essentially spam.

[N707ZS]

Shurely must be corned beaf!:}

[highwideandugly]

Few points....

Firstly bearers question....when will the consultation results be known

Secondly. FODTV. meeting last month...any news for general consumption?

Third..when does the flight calib. Unit leave.

And finally. Does anyone have any positive airport news?

Ta

[DTVAirport]

Beafer, let's get something straight, I ain't no "Peel chappy" as you put it nor are Peel my bosses and I do criticise them when it's warranted - to their faces I might add and not from the safety of behind a keyboard and monitor.

To answer some more sensible questions put forward by highwideandugly. Cobham Flight Inspection are reportedly leaving this month, certainly next at the latest. Things discussed at FoDTVA meetings are often commercially sensitive and cannot be discussed on forums etc, it is also for this reason why I can't properly answer your last question, there are some positive things, but probably not the kind of positive things you're looking/hoping for.

The consultation results will be known around Spring time when Peel release a final draft of the plan which will have taken into account all the feedback they received from the various events.

[Robert-Ryan]

I see the short-stay car park has been closed to make way for one of the new hangars:

Airport cuts parking charges (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/10993411.Airport_cuts_parking_charges/)

[OldManJoe]

Beafer, I haven't bothered reading the letters in the local rag but it's quite clear from what you've written here, you really don't have a fecking clue about business.

The councils sold the airport at a knock down price because it needed a shed load of cash to keep it open. The councils accepted the offer from Peel. If there were other offered on the table, I'm sure they will have been looked at.
If the councils had not sold the airport to someone willing to put money in to keep it open, it would have closed a long time ago. Quite simply, the councils could not afford the cash input needed to keep the place running.

Peel have suffered the losses over the past 10 years. The councils could not sustain the losses.

Peel have delivered in their promise in that including the losses have given over £20m. Works have been completed on items airside that have been needed just to keep the airport compliant with CAA regulations.

Peel now need to look to the future and decide what can be done to ensure the airport survives. This is what the Master Plan is all about.

You talk about the councils carrying out compulsory purchases. If they did, which council(s) could afford to run the airport. As I see it, with all the cuts to council budgets, none of them could afford to prop up the airport and keep it open.
The councils sold it exactly for that reason. They did not invest when they had it and as a result sold the place in a dilapidated state.

There will be ongoing expenditure of high value just to keep the infrastructure compliant. Peel need to look at ways to raise the capital needed. Selling/using the land around it for other commercial needs which can provide an income to subsidise the airport is the way forward.

All other airport are either doing the same or are now looking at using surplus land to subsidise their airport operation.

Check out the financial stats of the other airports in the region. They all made a loss. One made a loss greater than DTVA!

So feel free to bang on about ****e you don't have a clue about, continue to show your complete lack of business sense and your ability to believe in everything you read and hear from other who have about as much business acumen as a dishcloth.

[DTVAirport]

and there's your answer Beafer!

Couldn't have put it better myself OldManJoe!

[DTVAirport]

For all we know the other offers were lower still? Who cares, you can't change the fact that it happened!

If the councils do find money again, it won't be a fraction of the kind of money needed to run an airport.

As for the petition, you say 2000 people have signed it like that's a large number? There are 7.12 million people in our two hour catchment area. I would guess that OldManJoe - like most people - hasn't signed said petition because it's a load of rubbish from someone who obviously knows nothing about what the real goal is or business in general - which makes me wonder if you started it Beafer?

[OldManJoe]

Beafer, how much more clearly does it have to be spelt out. :ugh:

There were other offers on the table, thats the point, why give the whole place away for £500k? Its a joke of a price. Who decided on giving it to Peel? Names anyone?Who else offered to buy the place and keep it open by accepting the losses? If there was, then go and ask the councils under a FOI request. £500k... add in the £20m+ that Peel have paid either in losses or money spent just to keep the place compliant with the CAA regulations.

The lack of holiday flights may be why no passengers visit the airport now.Passenger for KLM and Eastern still travel through the airport. The charter flights were costing too much. Think of it a running a shop. You have an increased number of customers for 13 weeks of the year. You have to employ twice the staff to cope with number of customers. Your staff need to be trained to do the job. You have to pay for these staff for the remaining 39 weeks of the year. The increased custom during the 13 weeks of the year doesn't pay enough for you to pay the staff for the other 39 weeks of the year. What do you do? Suck up the losses and eventually go bust or downsize the business and stay afloat. Part of the downsize means you can't handle the increase during the 13 weeks of the year but you can continue with the rest of the business which is there 52 weeks of the year and this is what pays the bills.
It's simple business sense, not rocket science.


If the airport was in council hands and they did own all of the land again, what's to say the money couldn't be found when the recession finishes and it could become operational again?The councils don't have the money to keep the place open. If the councils still owned it, it would have closed and turned into a housing estate/business park long before now.
Where would the local councils find the money to keep the place open and invest in its future? Councils are already cutting departments within themselves due to the savage cuts.

It might save a property developer having to build on all of it which I expect will happen in the end.They are unlocking the capital from the surplus land and investing this back in to the airport. There is a Section 108 Agreement in place to ensure this happens. Guess you haven't read the full Master Plan cover to cover.

Whats the small round camera at the entrance to the access road which leads to the motorhome site?
Is it one of those police ANPR cameras which the press say is used to record number plates of passing cars? Why is on the back road and not the main access road?Yes, they are ANPR cameras. If these worry you, blame the terrorists that wish to do harm to the likes of you and I.

Its worth buying the Evening gazette for all the letters about DTV Airport.
The latest letter states 2000 people have signed the petition.
I couldn't see Old Man joe's name there yet? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifHow do you know? Do you know me personally?
Not exactly a high percentage then based on the population of Middlesbrough. Stockton and Darlington alone. 0.00453% have signed the petition.

[N707ZS]

I noticed hangar 4 was being consumed by a JCB on Monday.

[Skipness One Echo]

The charter flights were costing too much.
Write this out 100 times and realise why this business must fail.

Potential Customer : "Hi we'd like to use your failing airport for the purpose of putting fare paying passengers on an aeroplane to take them on holiday with a view to repeat business?"
Airport Operator : "Sorry we can't afford to let you pay us money for the use of our facilities."

Does this happen anywhere else? Most businesses understand the concept of a loss leader.

[DTVAirport]

Think of it a running a shop. You have an increased number of customers for 13 weeks of the year. You have to employ twice the staff to cope with number of customers. Your staff need to be trained to do the job. You have to pay for these staff for the remaining 39 weeks of the year. The increased custom during the 13 weeks of the year doesn't pay enough for you to pay the staff for the other 39 weeks of the year. What do you do? Suck up the losses and eventually go bust or downsize the business and stay afloat. Part of the downsize means you can't handle the increase during the 13 weeks of the year but you can continue with the rest of the business which is there 52 weeks of the year and this is what pays the bills.
It's simple business sense, not rocket science.

Write this out 100 times, and realise why the business will not fail.

No it doesn't happen anywhere else - and that's why the likes of Newcastle and Leeds are in hundreds of millions of pounds worth of debt, something which DTVA has none of, and if the business plan works out, the airport will be one of very very few in the country to eventually make a small profit.

[davidjohnson6]

While Skipness has a point, so does DTV
1 or 2 flights per week doesn't justify the extra staffing costs. However if a commercial passenger airport is saying it won't handle a B737 / A320 then there needs to be a very particular market niche for the airport. LCY gets away with it because of its location and all the corporate cash sloshing around for people whose salary per hour is very high. Salary in Darlington is not so high...

DTV management are effectively saying they think the chances of regular passenger flights in the future beyond the current state..... is nil

[Skipness One Echo]

No it doesn't happen anywhere else - and that's why the likes of Newcastle and Leeds are in hundreds of millions of pounds worth of debt,
Heathrow Airport owes millions of pounds more in debt, however so long as your debts are able to be serviced then you're doing OK. What Teesside Airport is, is continually loss making with declining passengers year on year with their main core business route declining. This is partly attributable to the message sent to the market that the airport is not open for business, which like it or not is what was heard. Any chance of an optimistic message was lost. If I was a KLM passenger and could choose between a vibrant NCL or a dying MME which should I choose all other things being equal? It's a collosal error to send such a message to market or an intentional one. In my view, largely intentional, KLM and Eastern will be process managed out.
. What do you do? Suck up the losses and eventually go bust or downsize the business and stay afloat.
It is much more difficult to shrink to profitability than to grow into it, as currently the business is in a death spiral as opposed to a virtuous circle.

[Lancelot37]

Well said Skipness One Echo (http://www.pprune.org/members/57530-skipness-one-echo). You build up a business to make profit not run it down. Peel appears to clearly have one objective and that has nothing to do with aircraft. Tees Valley Housing Estate.

[highwideandugly]

Skip ness. Spot on!

All you guys. Please tell me. What are you looking for. What do you expect? The airport is dying mainly thanks to peel policies and business

Klm will be gone within 2 years.if Liverpool next to manc couldn't work what chance has here! Eastern great little company but always fighting the rising tide(sorry) see their thread....

Why turn ANY BUSINESS away. Speechless....:ugh:

[OldManJoe]

Analogy time.

You run a hire car company with a fleet of small cars. You have a small base of customers who use these cars. You don't have enough customers to make a profit but you have deep pockets and can sustain the losses for the time being.

A customer comes along and wants to hire prestige cars from you. You don't have any. To buy these prestige cars will cost you £50k. The rental of the prestige cars will only bring in £5k. The cars will need replacing in 12 months time and you won't sell them for £45k to at least break even. Do you subsidise the customer who wishes to rent the prestige cars from you and take even greater losses or do you turn away the business?

What you do is look for customers that want the products you currently have and expand your customer base without increasing your costs.

Once you're making a profit, you can invest in prestige cars with the plan to enter the prestige car hire market.

A loss leader is only of use if the customer is likely to buy a product you have with enough profit to cover the losses and to ensure you still make a profit.

[SWBKCB]

Think of it as running a shop

Most shops seemed to have grasped the concept of varying demand and staff accordingly... How many airports have the same number of staff in the winter as summer - there's ways and means of doing it, especially in these days of zero hour contracts and 'flexible working'. And does it cost so much more to turn round a 737 on a Tuesday afternoon than a EMB-170 on a Saturday afternoon?

Had the costs increased that much between signing the contract with Thomson's and then cancelling the flights (and that's Thomson's, not some two bit outfit). Would make you think twice before signing a long term contract with these guys.

[OldManJoe]

At a guess to go from Cat 4 to Cat 6 costs somewhere in the region of £225,000 per annum in staffing alone. On top, you have equipment to maintain and professional development to consider.

Shop staff are rather easier to find at the drop of a hat than fully trained, licensed and current professional staff required at an airport.

[Skipness One Echo]

PIK survived by multi tasking fire crews as baggage handlers with no impact on safety. I would say "professional development" be damned given the situation. The business is in freefall and has failed to prove they can adapt to the needs of the market, to the point of turning away blue chip business. Once you do that, people don't come back.
They have succesfully established the notion that the business cannot deal with charters from the UK's largest and most respected holiday airline. The distance to saying that they cannot make money from remaining passenger activity is tiny, yet "true believers" continue to take the party line that this nonsensical two fingers to trade, is somehow a good thing. From an outsider's perspective, it seems utterly bizarre. The industry has already forgotten MME is even open for business. Why? Because management have made clear they don't want any.

[apaul]

By running just quite expensive flights to Amsterdam and very expensive flights to Aberdeen and charging £6 a head to use very limited facilities the airport just makes itself irrelevant to the majority of the potential passengers. The charter flights were the ones more of the people wanted to use. Peel can hardly count writing off operating losses against tax as investment.

[DTVAirport]

From an outsider's perspective
Exactly - outsiders, people who don't have a clue what's really going on behind the scenes to make the place work.

yet "true believers" continue to take the party line that this nonsensical two fingers to trade, is somehow a good thing.
"Individuals with limited inside information and good heads for business that can see the obvious" is much more accurate than true believers.

[Skipness One Echo]

The place doesn't work, I think that's the key point. I gave you PIK as the model where the business was right sized into growth, then stalled under hopeless new management but it can be done. They went to market, got new business and made it pay.
Peel have sent a clear signal to "clueless outsiders" like me who believe the business is failing and heading for closure and a sale of the land. They have done this by telling Thomson, a large well respected creditable carrier of passengers that MME doesn't want their business. That in one stroke will kill off any similar new business. Are there many other Eastern like airlines? No, Eastern are the last survivor in the UK of their kind. KLM? Year on year numbers falling even as the economy recovers. Why? Because the market thinks the business is doomed and the place smells of death. You are being made fools of.

No one is going to do business in these curcumstances, especially with NCL and LBA as much more amenable options. I don't give two hoots what management "say", sit back and watch what they've done.
Continue to preside over falling throughput from the last two operators whilst telling anyone else who might want to fly from MME to do one.

It's a slow motion car crash of a business run down, and you sir won't believe it until the houses are being built. No other airport on the whole planet has had a "recovery" such as this.

[Robert-Ryan]

The way I see it, DTVA needs two things to restore confidence; some kind of aviation-related construction to take place so that the media / local public / airlines can see for themselves investment is being made, this will come with the hangars that get built following the sale of land for housing which, as OldManJoe stated, is legally required to be built under the terms of a Section 108 agreement.

Secondly, a new route - of any description, and based on something vague I heard recently, that might not be too far away.

[oldart]

How many times have we heard that there might be a new route coming!
Do Peel want them anyway? I have supported the airport since 1969, how can I now when there are no holiday routes. :confused:

[pug]

Perhaps some of the more devoted members on here should read the below report, and remember that when they are attending these 'friendly' meetings with management, they are meeting with passionate people who are doing their best with the limited resources made available to them by those higher up in the Peel chain...

http://media.wix.com/ugd/440822_22c65849313bcedd42dc15d57426cd04.pdf

[NorthSouth]

11 movements a day by commercial air transport aircraft = 5.5 takeoffs and 5.5 landings - 3 Aberdeens and 3 Amsterdams

[BasilBush]

Pug - the info about Peel will come as no surprise to regular readers of Private Eye. The Liverpool Waters scheme will have such an adverse visual impact on Liverpool's iconic waterfront that Unesco has threatened to withdraw the City's World Heritage status, which is hardly likely to be beneficial to tourism.

Whatever the local merits of DTVA, the suspicion with Peel is that if they see more value to the airport site in an alternative use (such as housing or industrial development) they will have no compunction whatsoever about running the airport down. It is this conflict of interest that should make everyone concerned about having Peel running their airport - they are, after all, just a property developer.

[mmeman]

What about reporting positive news like a 16% rise in passengers to Aberdeen and a 24% rise in passengers to Amsterdam! ;)

[davidjohnson6]

Passenger on Amsterdam route:

Jan 2005 - 9,316 pax
Jan 2006 - 9,355 pax
Jan 2007 - 9,387 pax
Jan 2008 - 8,791 pax
Jan 2009 - 7,988 pax
Jan 2010 - 6,530 pax
Jan 2011 - 7,995 pax
Jan 2012 - 7,040 pax
Jan 2013 - 6,252 pax
Jan 2014 - 7,743 pax

It is clear to see how numbers fell after the autumn 2008 credit crunch. It is worth noting that the Jan 2014 figure is still below Jan 2009 and Jan 2011, so don't get too excited !

During January, KLM sometimes operate fewer rotations in the first week after 1 January. The month is also prone to weather related cancellations. Heavy rain annoys passengers but doesn't close airports like snow did in some previous years.
One should therefore be quite careful about comparing the change in weather-sensitive months between 2 years in isolation and try to look instead at the trend

[highwideandugly]

Asked a question on LPL thread to see if a comparison could be made between them and us.Of course KLM pulled the plug on LPL...

According to stats in the Friends of Liverpool Airport magazine (09/27) KLM carried 129,000 pax in 2010 and 124,000 in 2011 between LPL and Amsterdam. Of course passenger numbers are only part of the picture - yields will be an important factor and at DTV you have the 'benefit' of no competition on the route so yields may not be too bad.

Compare these figures to DTV and I would suggest we are flirting with danger good yield or not...??

[DTVAirport]

A little bit of good news; on 5th June the Around Britain Air Rally will stop at DTVA for the night. The last ABAR event involved 45 aircraft, so not only is it good as a one off event but will hopefully boost the airports reputation within the GA world. :ok:

[highwideandugly]

Although ams and Abz figures up total airport figures for January are down 12%

If that continues then passenger figures for 2014 will be around 140k .too reliant on klm (2 years into a 3 year contract gone)and Eastern me thinks? With no hope of more flights.

Never mind 45 light aircraft movements will help...free landing fees I hope? And let's hope no disruption to remaining schedules...

[Northbound A1]

Regarding the ABZ eastern flights.
If Scotland vote for independence, what will happen to those flights?
Will the rig workers have to go through passport control, will the taxes on those flights go up? Will Peel find a new excuse to put the £6 special Peel tax up?
Will Peel put the Avgas prices up for the fly in day? :rolleyes:

[DTVAirport]

There are no plans to raise the PFF and fuel prices will not be increased, if anything they'll have a bulk purchase discount. As far as Scottish independence is concerned, cross the bridge if and when it happens.

[Richard Taylor]

My understanding is that all the rigs will be towed south of the 55 degree line if there is a Yes vote, guaranteeing DTV much increased traffic going forward. :cool:

[highwideandugly]

Robert Ryan mentions possible new route coming...any mileage in Etihad regional giving it a go? Maybe gat wick and Southend?

Anyone know what TNT was in for...emptying hanger for development or actual freight charter?

[davidjohnson6]

A route from DTV to Southend seems most unlikely - would have to rely purely on O&D traffic without any connection onto Abu Dhabi for longhaul - just can't see there being sufficient demand for such a route

[DTVAirport]

I can think of many viable potential routes but I'm having a hard time thinking of potential airlines to operate them.

The TNT aircraft that operated the flight the other day operates on behalf of NATO.

[N707ZS]

The TNT 757 went onto a passenger stand so with it being a combie it could of been a passenger flight also no sign of the loader.

Southend why not for business flights, how far is the station to central London?

[davidjohnson6]

If an airline operated from DTV to Southend, then anyone travelling from Darlington or Middlesbrough to London would almost certainly just take the train instead.
The train from either of these stations to London takes no more than 3h01 minutes and runs every hour - a flight from DTV to Southend cannot possibly compete on frequency, door-to-door-time, cost or on general comfort (i/e. relatively uninterrupted journey with space for work).

If a route from DTV to Southend were to exist, it would have to be for people travelling specifically to/from south Essex rather than central London. Perhaps there are enough to fill an Eastern J41, but the passengers probably wouldn't be willing to pay Eastern's high fares compared to the train.

[Robert-Ryan]

Beafer, like many others, I hate the tedious 'man in the village', 'letters in the Evening Gazette', 'did Peter Fossil ever get his reply' posts that continuously appear on here, it's nothing but b:mad:cks.

But I'm gonna give you this one, there's a bit more to it.

I don't know where the £20m has gone either, I do believe that Peel believe their absorbing of the annual losses are part of the £20m, which is bull:mad:

There were other interested parties when Peel sold the airport to themselves - at least three.

He's completely right about many if not all of the other letters being naive - that is putting it lightly. He's also right about it being impractical for the councils to intervene in any way shape or form.

[Northbound A1]

What Cooky isn't saying is why the 6 councils sold the airport to the initial peel buyer in 2002 time for a ridiculous sum of money?

The councils didn't owe any debts on DTV as far as I know, it was surplus to WW2 and paid for from what I've been told. The councils said they needed somebody to invest in the airport at the time. Who would have thought the airport would now be turning companies like Thomsons and holiday flights away!!!

£500k was all peel paid for the whole 250 acres.
There is no way they have put £20m into the DTV. Its a joke to state that.
Can Cooky provide accounts to show this £20m or is he taking peels word for it? Sounds like mushroom treatment.

He's only popped his head above the parapet because people are stating in the papers including the echo that the public should remember which councillors have given the local airport away, and to remember which ones in the next elections and those elections are coming up.

ONE NORTH EAST paid for the new road into dtv not peel.
A grant also paid for the new fence to be erected not peel.
So where is this £20m which has been spent???
Oh lets not forget the BMI compensation of £8m which peel are supposed to have been given as well. It stinks.
If DTV A has any figures to show where the £20 has gone I'd be very interested?

[P330]

There is one line in the letter that I would like to comment on and that is the comment that the government have rejected two RGF bids that would have unlocked tens of millions in investment.

Firstly, you would have to ask why the government rejected the bids. At the very least, it was because the bids were not well put together but could also be due to the fact they didn't think the case was strong enough versus other investment opportunities. That said, whatever the government thinks, if Peel think this is an unjust decision and they truly believe this cash would unlock the future, then why not lend the money themselves from one of their various entities. Such a good investment would clearly bring big revenues back to their pockets right? However, Peel chose not to, and this can only be because they didn't think it was a strong enough investment either OR they don't see a long term future in the airport.

So, I think they should stop blaming the government and start to be honest. I'm not a fan of these letters as they ask the same questions but how about asking the question:

"If DTV is such a good investment, why doesn't Peel put in the equivalent RGF money themselves?"

And the honest answer is probably a simple one. They have bigger fish to fry and it will be incredibly difficult to make this work - however if the government turn us down, we can blame them. After all, we're already blaming APD, BMI, the economy etc we may as well blame the RGF bid evaluators as well.

[NorthSouth]

ONE NORTH EAST paid for the new road into dtv not peel.
A grant also paid for the new fence to be erected not peel.
So where is this £20m which has been spent???
Oh lets not forget the BMI compensation of £8m which peel are supposed to have been given as wellThen there's the million or so they've been given by wind farm developers to sort their radar - but they haven't done anything to the radar

[DTVAirport]

It makes me laugh, the people that start these petitions clearly have no clue whatsoever.

Why can't people see past holiday flights?? Yes they would be nice, but there is so much more to airports than that.

As for the Northern Echo article:

Coun Hobson said: “To build on the airport, to me, is sacrilege. It is the beginning of the end.”
Read the plans, they're not building on the airport, they're building adjacent to it, there is no threat whatsoever to the existing airport

MORE than 2,500 people have signed a petition calling on the Government to safeguard Durham Tees Valley Airport.
As someone else pointed out on here a couple of weeks back, that's like, 0.002% of the region, Downing Street won't give it a second glance, and if they did what would/could they do?!

She also believes that rather than investing in London airports, more flights should be diverted to Teesside
Says it all :rolleyes:

and that the airport should be offering more destinations to be seen as a real alternative to Newcastle Airport.
Does she really think Peel aren't constantly on the phone and in meetings etc trying to achieve this????? :ugh:

Any of the DTV management on it?
No. Contrary to what some on here believe, they've got more sense

[Northbound A1]

This guy must have had a good contact at the councils when picked up the place for £500k. According to Forbes he's now $800m richer than he used to be.

Surely he could be using a piece of that personal pie to sort DTV out? :E
John Whittaker - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/profile/john-whittaker/)

[CentreFix25]

out manoeuvred or a good old fashioned back hander :E

[P330]

Oh dear, things must be bad, as I find myself agreeing with a Beafer post!:eek:

Seriously, the very question I mentioned is there along with another valid point about the buy back in 2012.

I rationalise the opinions based on two different groups of people. Firstly, DTV Airport backs firmly the local management. I agree with him 100%. The local management are doing their best in the face of extreme adversity, limited resources and a difficult market. The problem though isn't really with the local management, it has been with the owners.

[Skipness One Echo]

Why can't people see past holiday flights?? Yes they would be nice, but there is so much more to airports than that.
Yes, these people wanting to go on holiday from their local airport, why don't they realise there is soooo much more to airports. Golly I wish they would stop complaining and just shoosh.

In other news.....

Look, the local management are irrelevant, it appears that at a strategic level, way above their pay scale, they have been set up to fail. This is a classic managed run down, and it matters not one jot how many true believers keep the faith, this is a business in a death spiral. The local "team" do as they are told, keep the spin machine whirling with "jam tomorrow" nonsense. DTVAirport, it's very good to support one's local airport but you have gone over to a very odd place now. You should know, you really are now defending the frankly absurd and indefensible. It's not enough shooing away potential customers, you are now ATTACKING them for being stupid. Is there anyone alive up there with the beginnings of any understanding of customer behaviour and marketing? Anyone?

[Fairdealfrank]

If an airline operated from DTV to Southend, then anyone travelling from Darlington or Middlesbrough to London would almost certainly just take the train instead.
The train from either of these stations to London takes no more than 3h01 minutes and runs every hour - a flight from DTV to Southend cannot possibly compete on frequency, door-to-door-time, cost or on general comfort (i/e. relatively uninterrupted journey with space for work).

If a route from DTV to Southend were to exist, it would have to be for people travelling specifically to/from south Essex rather than central London. Perhaps there are enough to fill an Eastern J41, but the passengers probably wouldn't be willing to pay Eastern's high fares compared to the train.


A link to any London airport other than LHR is pointless. The connections potential makes LHR different, and, of course, the lack of direct trains between Heathrow and the north.

But, it ain't going to happen, unless and until LHR has a third rwy and/or oil is discovered or large scale fracking starts in Durham and/or the North Riding. Regretably, neither is likely in the forseeable, as an LHR link would change MME's fortunes.

[SWBKCB]

or oil is discovered or large scale fracking starts in Durham and/or the North Riding.

We're keeping quiet about that until after independence!

And being serious, what would LHR give that AMS doesn't?

[Lancelot37]

And being serious, what would LHR give that AMS doesn't?
-------------------------------------------------------
A lot more hassle, frustation etc. Give me AMS any time. we voud to never used LHR again.

[Skipness One Echo]

Surely, "What would a LHR route bring in addition to AMS?" is the better question?
1) more passenngers
2) increased revenue
3) more daily movements
4) increased competition and consumer choice

It's never gonna happen sadly. The market's gone elsewhere.

[DTVAirport]

Yes, these people wanting to go on holiday from their local airport, why don't they realise there is soooo much more to airports. Golly I wish they would stop complaining and just shoosh.

In other news.....

Look, the local management are irrelevant, it appears that at a strategic level, way above their pay scale, they have been set up to fail. This is a classic managed run down, and it matters not one jot how many true believers keep the faith, this is a business in a death spiral. The local "team" do as they are told, keep the spin machine whirling with "jam tomorrow" nonsense. DTVAirport, it's very good to support one's local airport but you have gone over to a very odd place now. You should know, you really are now defending the frankly absurd and indefensible. It's not enough shooing away potential customers, you are now ATTACKING them for being stupid. Is there anyone alive up there with the beginnings of any understanding of customer behaviour and marketing? Anyone?
You've blown my comment well out of proportion, people just need to look at the bigger picture, surely a profitable executive airport with, say, 80 movements per day and some flights, holiday or otherwise, is better than a loss making airport with 10 movements per day and next to no flights?? I'm not attacking anyone and I've said it before I do question Peel at times, but there are more appropriate places to do that than on here.

Peel themselves are on record as saying previous incarnations of their company had an ulterior motive for the airport.

[davidjohnson6]

Jersey flight on summer Saturdays retimed to be about an hour later

If you were running a small business and looking for light industrial or office space to rent close to an airport so that you could reach customers and export your firm's products easily.... would you choose DTV with just 2 air routes or would you choose NCL with lots of air routes ?

[skyman771]

Ref Clr Cook et al.
A couple of technical points, the 11% minority aggregate holding by the various council's is only down to their own earlier ineptness in allowing themselves to be out manoeuvred by Peel in a call on further capital injection.
As for the £20M loss, then Peel would no doubt claim that their continued support in funding the airports continued losses on an annual basis justifiably qualifies. To just add up expenditure on tangible assets is perhaps a little naïve.
What does not cease to amaze me is the almost "hush" environment concerning detail / quantum of the BMI payment. This was of course disclosed on the airports statutory filed accounts, as Peel had little choice, though Peel would seem to deflect any enquiries as to why it also was simply "trousered" as additional revenue in that financial year which resulted in a previously unheard of operating profit in that year.
It is unfortunately not a simple task to take an aggregate view of the total loss of the airport over the period of Peels control, due to changing accounting formats, holding companies, internal charges etc. However in accepting that the £20M was injected by the Peel Group then one is effectively neutralised as to questioning this matter further.:suspect:
In conclusion then without some new relevant evidence, of any "wrong doing" (Note clever corporate structures and manoeuvers can be perfectly legal !), then nothing is going to change.
Time to move on ?

[No-More-Bullschit]

If they can do it why can't Peel at DTV????
They are. New hangars will be built when the housing estate gets approved and the land gets sold to the developer, which, let's be honest, will happen.

The words 'business diversification' stick out from that link, I haven't looked at their plans in any detail but it sounds all too familiar, I wonder if NCL feel there's something to what Peel are trying to achieve here, then again it's nothing new, as others have pointed out it's something every airport is doing, difference being no-one accuses the others of a hidden agenda :rolleyes:

[pzu]

To digress from the current 'survival' talk, can we persuade Peel to link in with this :ok:

RAF BBMF To Host Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum Lancaster During Visit To England (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/raf-bbmf-to-host-canadian-warplane-heritage-museum-lancaster-during-visit-to-england-24022014)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[SWBKCB]

Skydiving company to operate from Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/11033081.Skydiving_company_to_operate_from_Durham_Tees_Valle y_Airport/)

The airport’s chief executive Andy Foulds said the new enterprise will not interfere with existing operations

But will it affect the sale of executive homes?

[F4TCT]

Skydive ST George | (http://www.skydivestgeorge.co.uk/)

[SWBKCB]

I'm surprised Beefer didn't pick up on this bit...

Delegation of local politicians went to Westminster to hold talks with DTVA owner Peel Group about recently published airport masterplan

So Peel really are running the country??

[skyman771]

Beafer
How much profit do builders normally make on the type of houses planned?
General rule of thumb (excl land cost), build three & the fourth is free...Or putting it another way build four & you will have recovered your costs following the sale of the third.
Unsure what relevance this has :ugh: Apologies to all.

[DTVAirport]

just getting a handle on how much the house deal is worth to the Airport or should that be Peel HQ?
The airport will get it not Peel HQ, there's a 'section 108' agreement in place that states any money gained has to be invested back into the airport.

[DTVAirport]

Beafer, the compensation money did go to the airport.

[mmeman]

I see that there are to be 2 flights this summer with Newmarket Holidays to Italy - Can someone explain why these flights are ok to go ahead but the Thomson flights were loss making for the airport - would 2 random flights not make more of a loss (for the airport, as they would have to have more staff just for the 2 flights) rather than 2 regular weekly flights?:confused:

If it is down to size of aircraft, the Newmarket Holiday flights are normally 737-300 sized aircraft - so if the airport is ok to accept these flights could they not have talked to Thomson to see if they could use these smaller sized aircraft rather than 737-800's?

[Lancelot37]

The lunatics appear to be running thne asylum.

[Jamesair]

Maybe their arrival and departure times link in with AMS or ABZ times which would mean they could be handled at the same time.

Just a thought.

[Lancelot37]

The way that they are going they will be lucky to handle a 172 soon.

[P330]

I asked the same question about the Lapland charter at Christmas. How can a holiday charter be loss making one minute and not the next? Or if both loss making, why would you chose to accept one and not another?

The continued bizarre inconsistency and lack of clarity continues.

[NorthSouth]

Skydive ST GeorgeTheir only aircraft seems to be Airvan G-SCOL which is rented from Parachute Aircraft Ltd, probably on a one-off or short-term basis in this case. And since its ARC expires on 19 March it probably won't be around at DTV much longer.
I wonder how the new outfit thinks it can survive given that there is a well-established parachute operation 15 miles up the road with a dedicated local following and two dedicated aircraft.
NS

[SWBKCB]

from the Northern Echo on the back of Serco's annual results:

Serco, which operates the International Fire Training Centre (IFTC), at Durham Tees Valley Airport, says it has invested £1m into the facility in the last three months and is not looking to leave....Gary Watson, IFTC business operations manager, said: “We remain committed to the IFTC, which has a healthy and growing order book from clients in the UK and overseas. In the past three months alone, the company has invested more than £1m into the business, and we continue to actively engage with Peel Holdings, the owners of Durham Tees Valley Airport, about our long-term commitment to the site. Both organisations share real confidence about the future.”

[Robert-Ryan]

They've been allowed back into their building but are still not allowed airside. Their Cherokee was flown out yesterday by the owner and their other aircraft a PA34 is still out of action following a belly landing last year.

Here's hoping they remain permanently grounded, the airport has enough problems without having a firm like that on-site.

[DTVAirport]

Beafer, there are no further plans for redundancies in the near future that I'm aware of, the reason numbers are not known is because the number of aircraft is not known, last I heard there were 30 registered aircraft with an expected 50% drop-out rate and an expected final total of around 45.

The airport has since clarified what will be required of volunteers.

[SWBKCB]

DTVAirport - that was what I understood as well. Beefer thinks its good sport to turn everything about DTVA into a negative, but speculating about job losses isn't big or clever.

[OldManJoe]

Beafer, stop being a knob and trolling. Amazing how many keyboard warriors there are!!

[MMCMME]

In 176 pages, I don't think I have found a post by Beafer yet that I have found even mildly amusing :rolleyes:

I just checked the Friends website again but I'm still struggling to find anything about Peel planning pay offs?.....

You keep digging away at the caravans. In my opinion, caravan storage being busy is much more beneficial to the airport than an empty car park.

Its not ideal, but its money.

[N707ZS]

From the local rag.

Plans for 250 houses in Darlington village turned down to protect its rural character.

The Northern Echo: Middleton St George councillor Doris Jones
Middleton St George councillor Doris Jones
RESIDENTS of a Darlington village say they will continue their fight against ‘unsuitable’ housing developments in their area after an application for 250 homes was turned down by the council.

The application submitted by developer Gladman for an estate on Sadberge Road, on the outskirts of Middleton St George, was refused by officers at Darlington Borough Council on the grounds that it would damage the rural character of the village.

Dozens of objections to the plans had been submitted by local people, who say the village does not have the facilities to cope with a huge influx of houses.

The refusal to grant outline planning permission for the Sadberge Road site follows the earlier rejection of an application for 76 homes on a green field site on Middleton Lane, which had also attracted complaints from local people.

Gladman Developments has the right to appeal to the planning inspectorate against the decision.

In a report explaining their decision, made under delegated powers, planning officers at Darlington Borough Council said: “The application site currently acts as a ‘green’ undeveloped barrier between the main village of Middleton St George and the open countryside beyond the A67.


“It is considered that the loss of this visual relief to development beyond, to be replaced with some 250 dwellings, will form an unacceptable diminution in rural character of the locality.

“The applicant suggests that an aging population could adversely affect the sustainability of services in the village and that the proposed development could go some way towards mitigating this.

“The council is not aware that any of the services in the village are under threat of closure due to lack of demand and understands local people think that the settlement is underprovided for the population it now accommodates.”

Councillor Doris Jones, ward member for Middleton St George, said the decision was “absolutely fantastic” but that residents would not rest on their laurels.

She said: “We fully expect the developer to go to an appeal. We are still poised with our pens waiting to write more letters to the planning inspector.

“We’ve got to keep up the momentum because these applications are totally unsuitable for our village.

[Oliair]

Rumour has it that Teesside flight training director Shaun wilkinson managed to persuade a number of club members to bail him out and pay off debts owed to peel and a lump up front. Guy must have gift if the gab or made some massive promises asking for money with no aircraft or ability to even get airside! I can't believe he has even been let back into the building. Would have been a better idea for those club members to get together and set they're own group up, at least they could have flown!

[highwideandugly]

Beaver...quite right I will stick up for you.you care and unlike a lot of Blinkered people on here
You
can see the broader picture.

We all want our local airport to succeed but peel have one master plan and that's it. Sorry guys unless peel go. The airport will go.

However what we do. I really have no idea. We are bleeding a slow and painful death...come on local authorities. Speak up!!!:ugh:

[skyman771]

Ref Peel / KL
DTV Peel man says that Peel will support KLM for 12 months and beyond.
Was that a hint of a time scale mentioning 12 months?

Yes Beafer I believe they will, why? :-

The reason that this has surfaced at all is in all likelihood that KL are extremely concerned as to the current situation at DTV & hence the performance of their AMS route.
On the other hand then Peel "need" to have KL on board for the short term i.e. at least the next 12 months in order that they are able to continue to promote that their redevelopment plan is in fact built around a viable?? commercial airport. Otherwise Peel's whole position becomes that more untennable in that they have simply shut the airport down & put in the bulldozers. With such a scenario, it may become that much more difficult for those that have or will subsequently gain to line their pockets & the plan would become a much more transparant and straight forward redevelopment of land, which may lead to a public enquiry.:E
Post Script :
Ref Northern Echo / KLMMP hopeful of bright future for Durham Tees Valley Airport after positive talks with airline
Another prime example of an uninformed i***t opening mouth without engaging brain !

[N707ZS]

Another prime example of an uninformed i***t opening mouth without engaging brain !

Skyman not a very nice thing to say about Beafer; ;)

[Jamesair]

As long as the KLM and Eastern routes make money they will stay (assuming the airport/terminal remains open) but once losses start appearing both routes will go. There is no sentiment in business.

[skyman771]

As long as the KLM and Eastern routes make money they will stay...
Accepted to a point, however I feel that a more pragmatic approach would be take view that "as long as KLM can't obtain a better utilisation / return for the aircraft elsewhere than on the DTV route, then they will stay". :suspect:

[Jamesair]

Accepted......however both routes are also operated from Newcastle by the same airlines.

[highwideandugly]

Good point Jamesair....if Newcastle management had any nous...which I'm sure they haven't....they could offer eastern and klm an offer they couldn't refuse...free landing fees for 2 years??? For any flights transferred...

Clock is still ticking and any downturn in revenue on the two remaining flights we have will unfortunately spell withdrawal.

[Hipennine]

"Good point Jamesair....if Newcastle management had any nous...which I'm sure they haven't....they could offer eastern and klm an offer they couldn't refuse...free landing fees for 2 years??? For any flights transferred..."

On the contrary, a clever management would do the reverse. Why give something away when the chances are its going to happen anyway ?

[VentureGo]

if Newcastle management had any nous...which I'm sure they haven't....they could offer eastern and klm an offer they couldn't refuse...free landing fees for 2 years??? For any flights transferred..."

Not 100% sure, but I believe this sort of action would be against Competition Law i.e. where 2 or more companies exchange data, pricing, contract info etc... to affect the market.
Penalties are quite substantial if found guilty (up to 10% of turnover I think) Maybe someone with legal qualifications can enlighten.

[tigertanaka]

KLM seem to have a nice business at NCL with (in my experience) pretty full 737s flying to AMS. If they deliberately set out to move the Teesside flights (which for all any of us know could well making a lot of money for KLM) to NCL they would have to consider:

a) How many customers would just use Easyjet to fly to AMS?
b) How many would change carriers and transfer through LHR instead of AMS?
c) How much would the load factor on the KL 737s from NCL increase with no flights from Teesside?
d) What would be the lost revenue on NCL flights (prices are normally c£100 more from Teesside)?
e) How much would transfer to LBA (Jet2 compete with KL on this route)?

I must have taken 30 flights out of Teesside in the past 18 months and in my experience the morning and evening flights are pretty full, even with the prices that KL charge. The airport may be losing a fortune but I don't think KL are on this route.

[davidjohnson6]

tiger - there's another issue to consider. At the moment, with flying split across Newcastle and DTV, it's somewhat fragmented. In effect, DTV is a fortress airport for KLM - there's sufficient demand for only 1 network carrier so nobody else can break into the network flying market at DTV, meaning KLM get all the business which doesn't already leak to Newcastle.
If DTV loses KLM, all flying in NE England is then concentrated in Newcastle, making network flying from Newcastle a much larger and more attractive market.

Would Lufthansa perhaps be tempted to either scale up their Newcastle-Dusseldorf route or perhaps even launch Newcastle-Frankfurt ? Alternatively, might Emirates or SAS increase capacity ? If so, this could take a large chunk of NE England centric revenue away from KLM

[SWBKCB]

Assuming all the DTVA traffic goes north and not south to LBA, or that the shift to NCL would be big enough to have an impact.

It would also create a significant backlash if NCL was seen publicly to be going for MME.

[Jamesair]

Good news for February

Amsterdam 8025 + 17%

Aberdeen 2860 + 12%

[10 DME ARC]

It would also create a significant backlash if NCL was seen publicly to be going for MME.

NCL don't need to 'go for MME' ........Peel are doing it all by them selves!!!!!!

[skyman771]

Budget abstract :-
A £20 million per year “Regional Air Connectivity Fund” will be used to encourage airlines to start-up new routes from regional airports, such as Newcastle and Durham Tees Valley.
The only interest that Peel will have with this is to evaluate if there is a further opportunity to "trouser" yet more funds from the public purse.:E

[davidjohnson6]

Bunch of people arranging deckchairs on the Titanic
The airport's targets are ludicrously unambitious. 6 years to get from 160,000 to 200,000 pax which was achieved in 1973. Yes 6 years to add the equivalent of a 3x weekly Boeing 737
36 years to get to the same level as DTV was at in 1995

Those targets will be forgotten about long before 2020 and other events will have overtaken the airport long beforehand.

[skyman771]

Just about to make same observation :
The airport says it plans to boost annual passenger numbers to 200,000 by 2020 and to double that figure to 400,000 by 2050.
If this isn't enough fodder for those that wish the airport to close it's door to commercial operations then I really can't see what is !
Also in press was comment by transport minister as to the poor transport infrastructure to DTV, no mention or intention as to the role that Peel & local councils have played (or not:E) in their improvement.
One thing you can't blame for drop in numbers are the travelling public as they can only use those air services that are put in front of them.
Who mentioned the Titanic ?:{

[SWBKCB]

According to the Masterplan, the airports targets are in a completely different direction, not chasing passenger numbers. It sees the future as the continuation of the existing routes with modest growth on similar type services, but the main focus will be on developing the site for other purposes (think Kemble, Staverton rather than Newcastle, Bristol).

Not saying the plan is viable, but that's the approach so a discussion on passenger growth and public transport is irrelevant

[skyman771]

Not saying the plan is viable, but that's the approach so a discussion on passenger growth and public transport is irrelevant
So then you are suggesting that it is not viable?, in which case I don't think you will find many outside of Peel to disagree.
(think Kemble, Staverton rather than Newcastle, Bristol).
The funny thing is that I hear that Peel have not behaved in a very positive way either to a certain aircraft dismantler....
a discussion on passenger growth and public transport is irrelevant
Of course it is relevant, its part of the bigger picture, without growth, then pax no.'s will simply fall away, and undermine the whole plan :ugh:

[highwideandugly]

Interesting skyman re the dismantling lot.thought it had been pretty quiet recently.i know they tried to get into Newcastle but were rebuked there.is it airports really don't want that type of business?

Also the medic lot ias seem to spend all there time in and out of Newcastle...can't be too cost effective operating from here.its a good job newcastle have no hangers or that would be the death knell!

So short sighted by Newcastle management thank goodness!!

[SWBKCB]

Not much apron or hangar space at Newcastle for dismantling, unless you want to build from scratch.

Of course it is relevant, its part of the bigger picture, without growth, then pax no.'s will simply fall away, and undermine the whole plan

Really? The plan seems to be to maintain the current "vital economic links" to keep the local politico's sweet, with some organic growth (i.e. bigger planes when KL get rid of the Fk70's and EZE the J41's). Public transport is irrelevant because how do you implement it for 5 departures a day?

[North West]

One thing you can't blame for drop in numbers are the travelling public as they can only use those air services that are put in front of them.

bmibaby, Globespan, Ryanair, Wizz to name but a few would disagree !

[davidjohnson6]

Public transport is relevant. It can be implemented in the same way as at any other tiny airport elsewhere in Europe - namely a small 15 or 20 seat bus operated by the local bus company at suitable times to meet flights and used on local non-airport bus services the rest of the day. Even the current local bus service to Darlington is something...

[DTVAirport]

As far as I know they're happy and have plenty in the pipeline.

As for them wanting to get in to Newcastle, or anywhere else for that matter, I know it to be inaccurate as when they were in the midst of that disagreement with Peel during their early days when they were still in Hangar 4, they had opportunities to move in to at least two other airports but didn't because the MD never wanted to be anywhere other than DTVA.

[skyman771]

Got to agree with DTV Airport on this, NCL reference is a total "white elephant", their business plan was always to look for suitable development at "air fields" more than airports, to control overheads, NCL would never be economic irrespective of the fact that as it stands there is little space in any event.

[Northbound A1]

Does the sale of Cardiff Airport signal a return of UK airports to the public sector? - Part 2 | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/does-the-sale-of-cardiff-airport-signal-a-return-of-uk-airports-to-the-public-sector---part-2-153323)

Article:
Durham Tees Valley is trying hard to get back on track again by maximising the development potential of the entire site as well as retaining and building on the two remaining key services; the KLM service to Amsterdam and the Eastern Airways flight to Aberdeen.
DTV badly needs a service to London, but would seem unlikely to get one, being sandwiched as it is between British Airways' Heathrow flights at both Leeds Bradford to the south and Newcastle to the north with supporting flights to Gatwick at Newcastle by other carriers.
In Oct-2013 the management rather boldly declared it would no longer accept any charter flights as it attempts to rebrand itself as a business airport to help sustain the local – mainly manufacturing based economy – which has been hard hit by the recession.

Of England’s main airports these are the three that would be perhaps most likely to go back into public sector or part public-private ownership if the alternative was closure. (In the case of Doncaster it would mean entering the public sector for the first time – it was financed and built privately by Peel Holdings, albeit with the assistance of EU funds).
All three are located in manufacturing regions which could reasonably be described as ‘post-industrial’ and which would be even more adversely affected economically if they had no local airport. (A prior example might bePlymouth Airport, which closed two years ago, effectively cutting off parts of the English West Country not only from London but from the European mainland and especially so recently when inclement weather destroyed the main rail line).


Elsewhere in the Peel empire, they are buying under their Intu ownership. New shopping centres costing hundreds of millions, while DTV is being run into the ground.
Intu Properties plc Intu announces asset acquisitions and rights issue - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20140320-701646.html)

And they say there is no money around. :rolleyes:

[skyman771]

And they say there is no money around. :rolleyes:

There will be plenty of money around when they get their redevelopment of land under way, problem is it is only going to go one way.........

[DTVAirport]

There will be plenty of money around when they get their redevelopment of land under way, problem is it is only going to go one way.........
If that's a hint that Peel will trouser the money themselves they can't, there's a legal agreement in place that states money received from the housing development has to be invested back in to the airport.

They didn't trouser the £12m bmibaby compensation after all.

[jetstar.8]

DTVAirport
where did the 12m bmibaby compensation money go then :confused:

[DTVAirport]

Still sat in the airports bank account as far as I know, it was definitely declared on the airports last published finances I remember.

[jetstar.8]

DTVAirport
hope they are going to use it on the masterplan

[Northbound A1]

Nope, can't see £12m or even £1m for that matter?

Anyone got a friend in DTV accounts who can explain why the pot is empty?

PEEL INVESTMENTS (DTVA) LIMITED. Free business summary taken from official Companies House information. Free Alerts. (http://companycheck.co.uk/company/07934597/PEEL-INVESTMENTS-DTVA-LIMITED)
:=

[North West]

Elsewhere in the Peel empire, they are buying under their Intu ownership. New shopping centres costing hundreds of millions, while DTV is being run into the ground.
Intu Properties plc Intu announces asset acquisitions and rights issue - WSJ.com

And they say there is no money around.

There's lots of money around. Always has been. Finding a place to invest it with the appropriate risk / reward is the challenge. Investing in aviation in the North East of England at the moment is high risk and low reward, so naturally the money will flow elsewhere.

Combine the overall pax throughput of NCL and MME from the peak 2006/2007 era and it's the worst performing region in the country by a mile. Until there is some fundamental change in APD, oil prices or the economy in the North East, it's not going to be a magnet for aviation investment. In the case of MME, even when credit was cheap, employment was high, oil and APD was low, many of the flights weren't viable so unless an airport operator is prepared to subsidise the routes themselves, the chances of airlines committing to anything are next to nil. Peel have cut their cloth to suit this reality.

[DTVAirport]

Northbound, it's there somewhere, I've seen it with my own eyes and someone posted it in detail on here not too long ago

[apaul]

The £6.8 million profit in 2011-2012 was because of the BMI payment. Durham Tees Valley Airport: Slump in passenger numbers leaves airport £3.6m in the red - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/durham-tees-valley-airport-slump-6295032)

[DTVAirport]

The finalised draft of the master plan was due to be released mid-March so I'm guessing it will come out any day now, so to take an educated guess, I would imagine they'll apply for the houses almost immediately, I don't know how long such applications take (the one that was recently refused had been known about for quite some time), I believe a third party will deal with the houses, so whether that third party stumps up the £20m straight away in one lump sump or if it trickles in gradually over a number of months/years I don't know, but given the desperate lack of hangarage in the North East let alone the wider UK, I would have thought Peel would want the hangars up and running at the earliest convenience and I'm sure I've heard someone state "this year".

Not much of an answer but hopefully someone can elaborate?

[NorthSouth]

the desperate lack of hangarage in the North East let alone the wider UKIs that "people who would like to have their pet aeroplane in a hangar" or "people who are prepared to pay for having their pet aeroplane in a hangar"? And if it's largely private owners, is there any evidence whatsoever that they are prepared to pay the sort of money that a company like Peel are likely to charge? I don't believe any of those hangars will ever be built.
NS

[DTVAirport]

If the houses get built the hangars have to get built.

As for the use of the hangars, I don't know, could be Weston for GA (they've asked their clients before if they would opt for hangarage were it available, I think the vast majority said yes), it could be Sycamore as they would really benefit from a hangar that could fit their aircraft straight in rather than having to chop the tail off first or they could use it as bait to try and attract a new air operator.

[DTVAirport]

Yeah there is a 'Section 106' agreement in place which basically means the airport has to declare where the money earned from housing is to be spent.

[Northbound A1]

Hmmm, so Peel just have to say where they plan to spend the money?
Maybe Whittaker might want a new swimming pool in his garden instead of erecting new hangars.

While driving out of the airport I noticed that the caravan park is full. Will Peel be leaving the caravan site in situ once the houses go up? as I doubt the new neighbours will want a view of them. :bored:

[DTVAirport]

Northbound, stop stirring, Peel have already stated where they plan to spend the money - hangars.

I seem to remember hearing the caravan park would be relocated, but not 100% sure.

[Hipennine]

DTVAirport, can you explain how a section 106 agreement exists re the houses/hangars, when no planning application has been made for either houses or hangars ? (note a Section 106 agreement is made as part of a planning approval, not before).

[highwideandugly]

Beafer...don't be silly...nothing...passengers,cargo,trains,aeroplanes or basically anything goes through the airport these days,nothing.

The cards are on the table ,if the housing doesn't go ahead(and that's going to be fun) then it's goodnight from us(peel) and certainly will be goodnight from dtv.

[jetstar.8]

Think the change of use for the car park to store caravans was for three years 1 year has already gone now.
see what happens in two years time

[DTVAirport]

I did say I wasn't sure; either way hangars are the intended investment.

[N707ZS]

I see our avid paper reader didn't spot the new contract for the fire school to teach French firemen. A little bit of good news.

[N707ZS]

Hear you go Northbound:

Airport fire training business secures French connection (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/11103259.Airport_fire_training_business_secures_French_conne ction/)

I know you guys at Hartlepool are fearful of the French but quite sure they won't have a monkey with them;;)

[NorthSouth]

Beafer:Does much cargo go through DTV these day?2013 CAA stats on cargo don't even list DTV. Now, this may be because Peel choose not to report it, but I have a suspicion that's not the reason....

[LTNman]

Hangars can easily be converted to factory units if the airport closes. How big will these hangars be anyway? Will they be airline size or just for light aircraft?

As an outsider who looks at this thread now and again so no doubt I miss much of the detail it just strikes me as a strange investment plan and that Peel have all but thrown in the towel with regard to offering passenger services.

Get rid of the passengers and the cargo aircraft, close the terminal with all the cost savings that would make, reduce the fire cover to a minimum and turn the airport into a light aircraft general aviation airfield. Reduce the maintained runway length and width to cut maintenance bills and job done. . :{

[Northbound A1]

News which 'may' be a boost for DTV in the long run?

Multimodal 2014: Peel moves into shed space with strategic logistics offer (http://www.multimodal.org.uk/htm/n20140313.120239.htm)
Peel moves into shed space with strategic logistics offer

Large article, some of it printed here:
The Peel Group has unveiled its intentions to become a key player in the logistics market, with the launch of an industrial land bank on an unprecedented scale.
The 66 sites across almost 6,000 acres of land throughout the UK will be promoted through Peel Logistics, a strategic marketing alliance combining land assets from The Peel Group, Peel Ports and through Peel’s alliance with leading UK property regeneration company Harworth Estates

Many of the sites are multimodal; Peel Ports is already Great Britain’s second largest group of ports and the company’s aviation interests include four airports in the North of England.

Of the 66 sites,
42 percent are in the North West,
35 percent are across Yorkshire and the Midlands,
10 percent are in the North East,
and 12 percent are in Scotland.
The portfolio also includes a three-acre site in the South East, making up the final percentage of the allocation.

17 sites are brought to market through Peel’s strategic alliance with Harworth Estates, of which it has a minority shareholding. The three companies will continue to market their own sites individually, with Peel Logistics providing a marketing umbrella for the UK-wide portfolio.

Phil Wilson, executive director at Harworth Estates commented:
"We are delighted to be in this strategic alliance with The Peel Group and Peel Ports

The launch of Peel Logistics is timed to meet the accelerating demand for quality space. The portfolio will offer over 100 million sq. ft. of bespoke distribution warehousing, together with funding and outline planning consent for many of the sites. 1,900 acres have all infrastructure in place and are ready for occupation.

Commenting on the launch, John Whittaker, Chairman of The Peel Group, said:
"Peel Logistics brings together the largest land bank in the UK and is a key strategic project for the organisation.

“Additionally, well over a third of our sites already have planning consent and infrastructure in place allowing businesses to progress with their new ventures quickly, creating substantial employment and regeneration opportunities."
-----------
Maybe DTV is going to become a container centre instead of an airport?
I wonder if Phil Wilson who is mentioned is the local labour man or a relative??? :oh:

[LTNman]

You only need to look at what is happening to Manson to see the future for this airport.

A massive land bank that can be sold off in parcels has got to be worth more than Durham could ever make.

[Mike Tee]

Must admit I have been a bit out of touch with just what is going on at Teesside of late and therefore I was both surprised and puzzled to recently hear that Durham Tees Valley Radar is now operated from Liverpool Airport. Just how does this work, is the Radar Scanner at Teesside still operational with perhaps a live feed to Liverpool, are the controllers the same people who originally worked at Teesside but are now based at Liverpool ?. Any info as to just how this works, the benefits and of course the minus points appreciated.
Thanks.

[DTVAirport]

Mike Tee, that's not the case, it's still operated from DTVA, it was looked at a couple of years back but there were too many people against it.

[Northbound A1]

I was told by an airport worker that the Secondary radar (SSR) is fed by a radar station high up in the pennines. Forgotten its name.
It was a cheaper option than basing a new secondary system at DTV.
There is only a primary radar system at DTV from what he said.

Liverpool handle all of the information desk enquiries at DTV I think.
Doncaster handle all of the cargo and airlines :E

[Midland 331]

It's probably Great Dun Fell.

Doncaster's approach radar is/was handled by Liverpool-based ATC as well, so I understand.

There may be more use of procedural approaches via the TD NDB as a result.

More on this in the thread below. Spot the touchy ATCOs...

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/259993-held-dsa-mon-dieu.html

[SWBKCB]

Thanks Midland 331, an interesting/amusing read (oh, and I hope the bruisings better now...)

[Midland 331]

Unbelievable. There's no forum quite like PPRUNE for cat fights...

[Northbound A1]

Thanks Midland 331, it was Great Dunn Fell which provided the SSR feed I was told a few years ago.

DTV management couldn't afford to pay for their own secondary radar so they used to get their SSR feed from up on the hills. Is it a military radar Gt.Dunn?

DTVA on here may know if MME has ever put a new SSR in since, but with Peel in charge I can't see them paying for new equipment...can you?

[highwideandugly]

However...I don't think this comes cheap and peel have to pay the cca rather a lot of money?

[Midland 331]

Great Dun Fell is a NATS (and probably military) site.

I seem to recall Teesside getting their own secondary radar in the early 'nineties or before.

[Mike Tee]

Many thanks for the replys and info. I did suspect that the info I was recently given, ie that the facility had been moved to Liverpool was suspect as I still recognise voices that have been around on 118.85 for years and not a "Scouser" among them !!.
Having just looked at the technical page on the aiport's website it confirms that SSR (Secondary Surveillance Radar) is provided to Teesside by link from Great Dun Fell Radar which is near Penrith. (That big white ball that can be seen from miles around).
The Airport's Primary Radar is a Plessy Watchman System which I can remember was chosen years ago as it fitted in with and matched the radars at Leeming. (Well that's what was reported on local media at the time).
Thanks again.

[highwideandugly]

Its all airports not just here..ATC staff are expensive I would guess and if they can operate at bare minimum they will try and get away with it?? I know Birmingham had that problem recently overnight and Carlisle also ?? Newcastle are down to the bare bones and a few airports have reported closures over the last few months due staffing.

It will only get worse here.why would peel replace staff if they have no flights ?got to save money somewhere along the way !

problem is how can they continue to attract staff with the future unclear ? It will bite them in the bum...what happens if FRL get a rush job or someone wants to divert in at very short notice..:ugh:

[onyxcrowle]

Is DTV really going to be saved. Does it or can it have any chance of getting new routes even links air?.
Cant they tempt Ryanair in get them to run the airport they offered to run Dublin.
That. Or just close it to passenger ops.
As its Peel at least try save those jpbs by Sweet talking KLM and Eastern into moving all their DTVA flights to DSA.
Then offer staff a transfer.
Then try use it for breakers ops training n Cargo

[LBIA]

onyxcrowle I admirer your admiration and continued support for DSA but I've got to ask why do you think that either Eastern or KLM would consider setting up flights from DSA? They have the area already covered with operations from NCL, LBA and HUY.

Ryanair pulled out of MME due to the introduction of the departure tax, oh they now have a base down road at LBA now-a-days as well. Also if you worked at MME would you really want to relocate 100 or more miles south down the A1 to another peel run airport?


What ever happens I wish all thoes who currently work up at MME the very best for the future, "you'll need it!"

[Northbound A1]

Some Peel news.
I doubt DTV will cross Whittakers mind much, after reading about what he's making from the BBC and other government departments. Its like a character from a James Bond movie.
Has he got a white cat?
It says that he is Camerons best friend!
Peel Holdings | The Horrendous Truth Behind Fracking (http://frackingdangerous.wordpress.com/tag/peel-holdings/)

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hmmm … Well I think it is fair to say that the 'Peel Holdings' link takes you to a website with an agenda! The "Horrendous Truth" Behind Fracking??? Don't expect balanced reporting from extremist political pressure groups of any persuasion.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Well I'm nothing to do with Peel Holdings, Beafer. Indeed, I have at times stood accused here on PPRuNe of being a MAN 'fanboy', and as I'm sure you know MAN's principal local competition is LPL - a Peel operation. DSA (also Peel) is another direct MAN competitor. Having said that, I've nothing against Peel in particular; they are just a property company doing their thing.

However, it is very easy for casual observers to criticise successful businesses from a safe distance. Those funds which companies such as Peel accept from HMG are not obtained under duress. Such funds are allocated in accordance with policies pursued by your elected representatives serving what they perceive to be the national interest. You can't blame a progressive company for accepting this largesse if the politicians wish to put business their way. If you don't like that, you need to be protesting to your elected officials rather than criticising a business for taking on state-funded contracts.

On the subject of taxation, the question must be whether the company in question is in full compliance with its obligations under UK tax law as it stands. And that means the law as it exists today, not as some pressure groups would prefer it to be. If it is, then the company has done nothing wrong. If it is not, then it is incumbent upon HMRC to challenge the company and prove otherwise. The fact that some remote observers would like to see 'Company X' pay additional taxes does not necessarily mean that full compliance with the law has not been achieved. Prudent tax planning is a core concern within any major company … they have a duty to shareholders to lawfully pay what is due to the state but no more than is their obligation. Again, if observers are unhappy with that they should lobby their elected representatives for changes in legislation. No sensibly-run company is going to wilfully inflate its tax bill to put a smile on the face of afew interested agitators.

Basically, if one believes that a company is in breach of tax law, present the evidence to the appropriate authorities. But be careful not to libel them. One's dislike for a particular named company is not evidence of corporate wrongdoing on their part. Beware too of spreading innuendo about companies one may dislike in the absence of supporting evidence.

In this case, Peel Holdings is a substantial investor in UK development, much of this across the North, a region overlooked by many of its peers. Peel has been the catalyst in several transformational projects across the North - our quality of life would be noticeably diminished without them. I welcome and acknowledge these developments. In addition to this, Peel have provided employment and investment across some of the UK's most deprived regions. And, as a UK-domiciled company, Peel does pay its taxes to the UK Treasury. I have seen no evidence to indicate that Peel is not in full compliance with its tax obligations under the law. If politicians and tax authorities believe otherwise they have the authority to investigate any company or individual as they see fit.

I understand that the sad plight of MME is a matter of great concern to many readers of this thread. I too would like to see MME thrive, but that is simply not the reality at this time. Peel may be due some criticism for this - the unprecedented rejection of Thomson's business certainly raises eyebrows. But there is a big difference between criticising an operational decision such as that and suggesting that Peel Holdings should not receive public funding legitimately available for state-sponsored development initiatives. Such funds are not 'free government money given away'. They relate to very specific projects and developments which are deemed by HMG to serve the national interest. If you disapprove of regional development grants and the like, protest to your MP.