DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5

[mmeteesside]

Given that Eastern are soon to drop their NCL-IOM service (last service Sun 23 Aug I believe) - I wonder if Manx2 will look to fill the gap at NCL or MME?
I wonder if MME would be far enough from LBA so as not to abstract from that service? Suspect NCL would offer bigger discounts however who knows.


Continuation of http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/260239-durham-tees-valley-airport-4-a-116.html#post5102191

[andrewmcharlton]

Surely Excelsis will step in with a rocketship service departing hourly from the Metro / Airport / Rocket base?

[mattfalcus]

Ryanair could also do Stansted or Gatwick. I think either of those would be more beneficial as a London route than Luton. But we're not going to grumble are we :)

[MME4eva]

MME is running in as one of the favourites for a new UK Ryanair base with 3 B738s based from October.

[jh0805]

How did you find this out?

[MME4eva]

Currently on the Ryanair thread..I meant 3rd in other users' minds, not necessarily the minds of the most important people i.e. Ryanair management.

It would certainly be very galling to see a FR base at another Northern base e.g. NCL/LBA given they already have lo-cos but perhaps DSA are in with a shout seeing as though TOM are reducing.

[DTVAirport]

Just reading this thread, the Ryanair thread and a few other places - we seem to have a much bigger chance than you might realise, few airports would be able to match an offer MME could make (because of our desperation), also, it would make the local news like Jacko's death made the national news - it would be talked about for weeks, so whereas three aircraft, and B738s at that, would seem like over capacity, it maybes wouldn't be, people would come from the very corners of our catchment area, not to mention we'd steal pax from LBA, NCL and maybes more!

Also, it wouldn't matter if Ryanair paid nothing for years, they'd attract the right type of pax, we'd make enough profit from car parking, vending machines, the cafes/pubs etc.

It's funny how several airlines leaving have put us in the mess we're in, yet one airline could be about to put us in the best position we've ever been in overnight, and let's not forget, airports with their own based airlines grow a lot faster than those without, Jet2 at Leeds being a prime example and even us with bmibaby to a lesser extent - more airlines and routes would most likely follow!

Still, it hasn't happened yet...

[Bartrams]

My feeling is ,it will be Glasgow a massive catchment area and PIK is not flavour of the month.DTV's record,lets face it has not been good.Lets hope however if they do come they sign a legally binding contract this time!!

Anyway more help needed, as seen on another web site, a huge amount of trooping flight going through Newcastle at the moment..have we lost those as well anyone??

[N707ZS]

The Newcastle troop flights are more thank likely from the local barracks they have flown out of there many times before.

DTVA has handled flights very recently.

[Bartrams]

Know its a little sensitive..but haven't seen many recently?

Which barracks are used for Newcastle? Thought all came from catt?????

[mmeteesside]

Had one the other day, Omni DC10 from Calgary bringing troops back from Canada. Departed to Hannover iirc.

[Skipness One Echo]

Also, it wouldn't matter if Ryanair paid nothing for years, they'd attract the right type of pax, we'd make enough profit from car parking, vending machines, the cafes/pubs etc.

So how's that business model working out at Prestwick then? ( closest analogy )

You're assuming that you'll make money etc because MOL says so. Is that happening at similar airfields? Is Shannon rolling in profit? I have yet to see proof this approach works in this part of the world, though I happily admit it seems to work well in parts or Europe.

[N707ZS]

Bartrams, there is a barracks near Newcastle airport on an old airfield. A few years back they got the lucky dip of a Corsair 747-100 on its last flight before the breakers. :}

[maxtoon]

yup .. RAF Ouston is only a few miles away .. it is now an Army Barracks !!

It also served as 'Newcastle Airport' temporarily in the 60's while the runway at NCL was being extended.

[JKKne]

Now known as Albemarle Barracks, just off off the Military Road. Used to see the odd VC10 when I used to visit family up there. Assume they move troops into Otterburn from there too

[paarmo]

3 based aircraft from Ryanair would mean either 3 x 3 flights 7 days to destinations or about 12 new destinations at various days .Can't really see that happening at the moment,however, Ryanair have numerous aircraft on order and being delivered shortly and have reduced services at various airports in a huff so who knows. They have the clout to produce new routes out of nothing.Things are so bad at Teesside that even a rumour is good news.

[mmeteesside]

Another two small pieces of good news.
The troop flights are still with us, another load of troops came back from Canada early this morning (Monarch A330) and there is a Globespan 763 coming down tonight presumably to depart in the morning.

Also, Newmarket have added a number of one-off holidays from DTVA next year taking us back to what we used to have after a quiet year!
Holidays can be had to Malta (Nov 09, Apr 10), Verona (May 10), Naples (Jun 10) using Air Malta and Viking.

[jasond4]

Just been looking through the ryanair website and all routes out of MME along with DSA have been axed. So i doubt the new UK Ryanair base wont be going to either MME or DSA.

[DTVAirport]

In the case of MME are you sure they're not just axed for the Winter? Do they even have next Summers schedules out yet?

If we were to get the base things would change anyway, we'd probably get DUB back, and at a higher frequency than when it ended too, but although my hopes have been built up (probably needlessly) I'll believe it when I see it.

[SWBKCB]

Agree that they're probably just dropped for the Winter, but does make you wonder if they can't sustain these for the Winter, where would based aircraft operate to?

Manx2 have also announced IOM-NCL, replacing EZE.

[mmeteesside]

I don't know, I can't see DTV being able to sustain 3 737-800's over a winter season. It might make sense in the summer but I am not sure about winter. Unless they have more profitable routes from Gerona/Alicante in the winter season, meaning DTV might not be unprofitable as such but might only make pennies compared to other routes! Although I can't see that being the truth :bored:

[davidjohnson6]

If Ryanair choose MME as a base, it'll be to function as "Newcastle (South)"

[DTVAirport]

We're that desperate who cares what they would choose to call us, as long as its runway 23 their aircraft are landing on as opposed to 25, that's all that would matter.

[paarmo]

No sense of excitement at the airport over the rumours.Either the rumours are just that or the management team are filled with dread at having to deal with the satan of airlines.They couldn't get on with Globespan so I don't know how they will cope with being a base for MOL rather than just having fleeting visits.

[mattfalcus]

The new Ryanair base is Leeds Bradford, announced today.

[Wellington Bomber]

Keep your r/w open in the winter there will be lots of FR diverts from LBA coming in

[hatchetman]

Agree that LBA is hopeless in the winter and additional traffic will wing it's way to DTVA. FR might see the error of their ways if the winter is bad. Why take on Jet 2 when there is an empty airport 60 miles away that is easier to get to.

[DTVAirport]

The rate at which Ryanair seem to open new bases it might not be long before we get a small operation here as well anyway.

[apaul]

I can only see Ryanair's new LBA base as a further blow. Teesside would not even get winter diversions which would more likely land at Doncaster.

[jh0805]

Even though we get LBA diverts when the weathers bad anyway...


What would be different than it used to be except for some Ryanair jets...

[Leodis]

Sorry guys but it doesn't matter how bad the weather is or how bad the road links are, LBA has been chosen because of it's locality to a massive population catchment area which is leaking millions of passenger each year to the likes of Manchester, Liverpool and East Midands.

[N707ZS]

Are Ryanair just trying to attack the heart of Jet2.

[commit aviation]

I don't think so. Looking at S10 Jet2 appear to have cut frequencies on a number of routes outside of the school holidays. It looks like they have tried to maximise yields and have possibly come unstuck.
If fares are too high, people go to other airports and LBIA will be keen to prevent that (as would any airport!)
I don't think J2 will suffer overly - 14 destinations on 2 aircraft means frequencies will be relatively low, but it might keep them honest. The public should win - better fares and more services. The Leeds catchment area can stand the extra services so in my opinion everyone can win.

[DTVAirport]

Sorry guys but it doesn't matter how bad the weather is or how bad the road links are, LBA has been chosen because of it's locality to a massive population catchment area which is leaking millions of passenger each year to the likes of Manchester, Liverpool and East Midands.
We have a relatively large catchment area and are leaking millions of passengers each year to Newcastle & Leeds-Bradford, as well as Doncaster Sheffield & Manchester to a lesser extent, I can't see how we're much different in that sense.

You know what will happen now though don't you? In a couple of years or so, maybe less, they'll go into Newcastle and we'll be 'sandwiched' again, blowing any chance of us getting a replacement based airline, if there even is a chance in the first place.

[pug]

We have a relatively large catchment area and are leaking millions of passengers each year to Newcastle & Leeds-Bradford

Because LBA and NCL sit withing some rather large and diverse catchment areas, thats why places like MME lose out unfortunately.... DSA suffers due to being wedged in between EMA, MAN and LBA.

Im sure that if millions were leaving Teesside for the other airports that airlines like GSM and BMIBaby would have stayed put at MME. Same can be said with HUY to be honest...

[ConstantFlyer]

Both MME and NCL suffer from the fact that half of their catchment area is the North Sea.

[Skilly]

I am a bit of newcomer to the region and MME is only about 20 mins away from where I live. I see that Ryan Air have gone for a base at LBA, one can assume it's to try and draw passengers who frequent LPL and MAN airports. It would have been nice for me to see a strong commitment at MME by at least one budget airline offering some destinations that the main players leave to the small airlines, an example being Aberdeen or Scandanavia. . Ok I am biased as I travel home to Aberdeen at weekends but there is no way I am paying £155 to sit on an Eastern Airways Ford Escort with propellors. I accept that this route is mainly full of hairy bottomed oil workers paying premium fares (or their companies are paying) and there is no competition on this route. I see very little in the local press that makes me believe that MME will be anything other than a little backwater airport that is lacking a plan for the future.

[DTVAirport]

Ford Escort with propellers - genious!! :ok::D:}

[Wellington Bomber]

Skilly

You wont pay to go to Aberdeen for £155

But you will pay F*** All to go to Scandinavia and then pay £155 for a beer, genius!!

[SWBKCB]

MME by at least one budget airline offering some destinations that the main players leave to the small airlines

I think the main problem with the RYR LBA decision is the lack of options it leaves for MME. Look at the bases around MME:

Easy - at NCL;
Ryanair - at LBA;
Jet2 - at NCL/LBA;
FlyBe - at NCL/LBA

Who else does that leave - bmiBaby, Globespan?

[OMGitsDAVE]

I believe that DTV (MME) will soon be growing, before the end of 2011 with passengers. Network Rail have announced they have confirmed the Tees Metro, and a half hourly service will go to the terminal, both towards Darlington & Saltburn. Further connections are available at Middlesbrough/Thornaby for the Hartlepool service to be up and running by mid-2011. Its looking brighter.

[DTVAirport]

The Metro service means sweet F/A. No good it bringing passengers for flights that don't exist.

What could be considered as "it's looking brighter" - I had a chat with someone working at DTVA today who says the airport will never close, because if Peel tried to close it, the RAF would step in and stop it. Now I know the opinion of one person doesn't really count much, but there are quite a few people who seem to share this view?

[SWBKCB]

Why would the RAF want to stop it closing, and more importantly, on what grounds could they? Only way I can see would involve them paying Peel to keep it open.

[DTVAirport]

Something to do with us being a military diversion airport or something, also, we provide ATC for the Vale of York which is a RAF playground.

[jh0805]

And wouldn't Cobham have some say in whether the airport was going to be closed down?

[Alvechurch]

The July passenger stats from CAA make for painful reading.

28,330 a drop of 60.3% Rolling 12 months, 434,187 down 39.8%

[maxtoon]

The July passenger stats from CAA make for painful reading.

28,330 a drop of 60.3% Rolling 12 months, 434,187 down 39.8%

err ... :eek:

[NorthSouth]

we provide ATC for the Vale of York which is a RAF playgroundAs do Leeming and Linton. Can't see the RAF needing a third provider for the same airspace. In fact they'd probably welcome DTV closure because it would remove conflicts with Leeming traffic and open up a whole new chunk of airspace.
NS

[paarmo]

Interesting situation about to develop at LBA I believe. Ryanair have effectively pulled out of MAN because the airport would not let them fly for free.They have moved into LBA and one could suppose that the terms are highly advantageous for them if not free. Where does that leave Jet2 and even the charter companies? If they are not offered the same terms will they be looking for a new base 60 miles north with better weather than LBA, unlimited slots ,lots of parking at what has just been audited in the press as the least expensive in the country and a new metro system planned. Couple that with lots of apron parking when the flying school leaves and private flyers are priced out of the system and I give you the hottest expanding airport in the UK.......Teesside International.( I would really get rid of that DTV crap title as all the roadsigns from the West Yorkshire direction on the A1 still say Teesside and they know that Teesside is nowhere near as far north as Durham)

[DTVAirport]

Wow, I wish it was that simple. Not gonna happen I'm afraid. And Before anyone asks, what he means by "when the flying school leaves" is that the owner of CFS, Disley Aviation, has given the club two months to stand on its own two feet and break even - Disley won't be putting anymore cash in.

[andrewmcharlton]

The Metro issue is a red herring. I was told last week that of the pax which transit through NCL less than 10% arrive by Metro so even IF it ever got built AND anyone wanted to use it its not going to make a ha'peth of difference.

[mmeteesside]

Looks like Thomas Cook have now dropped both destinations from DTV next summer. That means there will be no flights to Palma and Reus from them. Palma is still served by Thomson though.

[OMGitsDAVE]

Are you joking, seriously? The Metro is going ahead as I have been to a number of meetings with FOSCs (Hartlepool & Seaton group), and one of them have said they have had a meeting with Network Rail about the proposals, and its all going ahead as planned - along with the hartlepool transport interchange.

I also beg to differ about the amount of users on the T&W Metro... most, if not all of the trains I have been on have been standing room only - and i tell you thats quite a lot of trains.

Sorry, but from personal experience it seems the transit TO the airport is going ahead.

[ReadyToGo]

I can't believe people here are so negative about the "Teesside Metro" project.

Ok so the airport gets a regular service, that will get next to zero passengers. On the face of it its pretty pointless right now. But whats the cost.

But to ANY airline, anytime in the near future, a regular connection to Darlington (for the mainline) and Middlesbrough (for its population) is going to be quite a big thing. Far more attractive than a poorly timed bus service or 1 train a week. A regular rail connection is a good selling point! One train a week will not sway anyone, a halfhourly, oreven hourly shuttle looks a lot better. Even if its not used, the fact its there is no bad thing in terms of the airport!

Looking at the state of MME now... ANY investment should be welcomed, because with all the negativity, you couldn't get a much worse connected airport than MME is now.

As for the statistics for the T&W metro, 10% sounds low, but i think the majority of people who use it, are meeting and greeting or working there. rather than travelling themselves.

[andrewmcharlton]

The stats on Metro usage were ones given to me by a DTV Manager.

Metro to DTV might help but at the end of the day, no flights = no pax.

[Parsnip]

OmgitsDave, having been involved for a number of years with the feasibility of the Metro I can say that when it happens I will be in Binns Window without trousers, sorry but it aint gonna happen, and the reason is simply there isn't the money available.
And IF there ever was, it won't save Peels airport, the reason for that being that most of the punters wont struggle with suitcases on the train, its much easier to stick 'em in the back of the car and lug 'em from the car park.Which was why the old rail halt was hardly ever used.

[paarmo]

This Metro thing is a red herring.There is little difference between the current rolling stock and a Metro and no one has ever used the current rail halt even when every train stopped there.
Picture the scene. Myself, my wife , complete with holiday hair do and two children leave our house. Walk 3/4 mile to the rail halt and board the Metro, dragging 4 suitcases and assorted hand luggage with us. Did I mention it was driving rain and hail? Pay £20 each way to travel to the airport which takes 35minutes and at the other end have a 1/4 mile walk to the terminal . The rain of course is now coming from a different direction , soaking what few parts are not already soaked.
Second scenario. We load the car, drive to the airport in 30 minutes. Unload near the terminal entrance thus saving the holiday hair do and pay £32.00 for two weeks parking , £8 less than the Metro fare.
The only thing missing are the flights to take me on holiday .
Metro ? I don't think so.

[Get me some traffic]

There was a time when all trains (4/hr) were met by an electric bus. The service was free and well used. It was cancelled as a cost cutting measure and service buses routed via the station. This was also cancelled as a cost cutting measure. I travelled to work via bus and train when memsahib wanted the car. Sadly this stopped many moons ago. The point is, I was not the only passenger. The system worked. This was in the days of 600,000 pax/yr.

[andrewmcharlton]

The buses were paid for by the regional development agency. When the grant ran out the bus stopped as it isn't / wasn't commercially viable. This whole public transit issue is not relevant. Over 90% of pax come3 and go by car and the end result is there isn't enough air traffic to make things work, its got bog all to do with anything else.

Airports primary purpose is to shift pax to where they want to go at a price they willpay whilst producing profits (not loads) for airlines. It just isn't happening.

[ConstantFlyer]

Good public transport connections are important for inbound tourist and business traffic. Paarmo, I'm sure the car is the best option for you and many other local passengers, but we need to attract overseas-based passengers to fly into Teesside and be able to travel easily by public transport to Durham, York, Newcastle, etc.

[thetimesreader84]

It's a chicken and egg situation - without commercial flights, noone will be willing to invest in public transport links that won't make money (would you fund a bus to Bagby, or Fishburn airfield?); without transport links to nearby towns/citys/attractions no airline will gamble in the middle of a recession.

I flew into DTV as a commercial pilot earlier this year, nearly 10 years after my first trial flight from same airport. It saddened me to see just 3 departures on the board, at the airport I grew up next to. And even then I was only flying in because the runway at NCL was closed.

Sad, Sad, Sad.

TTR

<Edit: I flew in this year. Seems like last year though! And it is nearly a decade since my first ever trial flight with Teesside Aero Club. Where did the years go?>

[paarmo]

It is not a sad situation , it is an impossible situation. Current estimates for this metro system are running at £220 million pounds which includes an input of £75 million poundsfrom Railtrack. Bearing in mind that these provisional estimates are usually made by someone who once estimated the number of rolls of wallpaper he needed to paper his lounge and therefore feels he is adequately qualified to estimate a huge civil engineering contract,the final fiqure will be somewhere in the region of twice that with 10% added for adding up mistakes.Half a billion pounds in the present financial climate for a new train set? I don't think so.
As an aside I cannot remember the last Japanese/US/European tourists who landed at Teesside Airport on spec looking for public transport to the bright lights of the Teesside Conurbation. I could be proven wrong but I think that 95% of the passengers leaving Teesside actually come back here and the others have secure arrangements with family/company or friends.Just because International is in the title,it dosen't really mean a grown up airport. It is a regional holiday slightly business airport with aspirations to be bigger than it can possibly be.BMI insisted that Durham be put in the title because they didn't understand the dynamics of the area any more than the current owner's appear to.Please let somebody local have an input into it before it is too late. With Jet2's announcements at NCL it may already be too late.

[thetimesreader84]

Paarmo, that may be true, but why shouldnt people come and use MME to visit the local area? Why couldn't we have gone for that market? For years Teesside has been used as a base by coach companies doing trips to North Yorks, County Durham and surrounding areas. With some of the redevelopment going on, why wouldnt people want to visit Yarm, Middlesbrough, Durham, Darlington? I'm out of the area now, but still go back occasionally, and it certainly compares favourably with the area I live in now, which is generally regarded as a tourist hotspot. Certainly there have been many North Americans strolling around this summer, despite the Credit Crunch.

I agree that the local metro system will probably be a white elephant. One only has to look at events in Edinburgh to see how not to input a Metro system. But MME does not need a metro system. An hourly bus service running along the A66 from Darlington Station to Middlesbrough, Via the airport would make an impact, I'm sure. I may be proved wrong, but I think MME was, and remains, the only airport on our route network not served by a regular (at least every 1/2 hour) bus/rail/metro service to the nearest centre of population. Certainly I'm hard pressed to think of one.

However, the big problem as I see it is that Teesside suffers from an ID problem, one that seems to be exacserbated by some sections of the local community and media. MME will never be an East Midlands or Liverpool airport, but why can't it be successful? And why can't Teesside as a whole attract more tourists?

[mmeteesside]

Actually the airport does have a half hourly bus to Darlington, one of those runs hourly to Stockton and Middlesbrough, which is the 12 run by Arriva.

[thetimesreader84]

I will stand corrected. However I do know that many of our crews went to look for a bus to town, and none could find a service. Perhaps they need to look harder!

[OMGitsDAVE]

The 12 has only just started due to another bu from Darlington Railway Station being taken off, the 20 has also stopped running.

[paarmo]

Timesreader,
Foreign tourists do like to visit an area of specific interest to them. The scenery is spectacular from several high vantage points over looking the Tees Estuary but only if you a fan of the film Bladerunner.( Expanation too long for here please see Scott brothers film directors) . We are locally and perhaps regionally proud of the largest working transporter bridge in the world and the oldest surviving lifeboat in the world at Redcar ( The Zetland 1802 ) but then we start to struggle and I am not sure that these are nationally of great import let alone of international interest. Durham Cathedral I hear you shout. Yes possibly but it is actually 3/10ths of a mile closer to NCL than MME. So much for BMI.
I am a great supporter of Teesside but even I struggle to map a tourist trail. Even Captain Cook's house dosen't exist anymore.
I do think the international tourist trade is beyond Peel and anyone else for that matter to project with any confidence on the world stage.
Nice thought though. Back to the drawing board. Does anyone else have any marketing ideas for Teesside Airport?

[Bol Zup]

How about the north york moors within a half hours drive and the lake district not much more than an hour away. :ugh:

[thetimesreader84]

Whitby, Saltburn, Hartlepool Historic Quay? Great Ayton, Roseberry Topping, Stokesly, Yarm, Darlington Railway Museum, Barnard Castle, MiMa, North York Moors, High Force, Tees estury SSSI, the Cpt. Cook trail in Marton? All off the top of my head. All, I think, worthy of any advertising campaign, and things that Teessiders can be rightly proud of.

[paarmo]

Yes we are proud of them but more as lifestyle enhancers rather than tourist hotspots. After all they have to compete with the Tower of London , Houses of Parliament , Grand Canyon ,Yosemite ,Hawaii ,Great Wall etc etc. As I said earlier great for locals,even regionally and at a push nationally but to attract foreign tourists with all the other attractions both in the UK and abroad ? It's a hard sell and I don't know of anyone especially at Peel who could do it. In the meantime the airport dies. A slightly easier sell is to tour companies but even that appears to have foundered at the moment.
At the moment there dosen't appear to be any direction and focus for the airport. I don't think that they know where they want to position themselves in the market. I don't think that a mass influx of foreign tourists is likely and mass influxes is what they need.

[skyman771]

Any large influx of foreign tourists at a level that would support new services is fantasy. The airport has been in decline for many years, and what is more relevant is that historically there was never enough support when the figures were around 1m pax to add further growth at the time.
Even more important is that times have changed & the competition has grown stronger, with investment being made to strengthen the position of NCL & LBA.
As for the local population, then a habit has formed whereby alternatives to DTV are more often than not, given favourable consideration. DTV is now operating well below it's critical no. of pax to breakeven suggesting further cuts in overheads. At this late stage throwing investment at transportation links really isn't going to offer any short to medium term support in attracting additional pax. All the while further losses need funding & by whom ?
The future for growth is on a 'regional basis' & this positions have now been occupied by NCL to the North & LBA to the South. Most people I talk to have no qualms at all about travelling to LBA or NCL to take a Loco holiday flight & that together with a catchment area now more attractive than ever to competition says a lot.
As for the Loco's operating in a very difficult & competitive environment, then it makes absolutely no sense to increase risk by placing aircraft at airports which effectively increase their risk profile.

[NorthSouth]

Does anyone else have any marketing ideas for Teesside Airport?Parking lot for the RAF's surplus Typhoons?
NS

[NorthSouth]

What surprises me is that Cobham haven't moved to Leeming where there's heaps of room, military partners (esp. 100 Sqn) on base, virtually identical proximity to North Sea/Spadeadam airspace, and presumably lower costs to the MoD budget.
NS

[paarmo]

Military partners at Leeming is exactly correct. They are still civilians who are partners to the military.Even though they have access to most operational systems there is still the security headache of accessing a military base. On top of that they are not exclusively contracted to the MOD. They could secure contracts with others ,highy unlikely I realise ,for downtime with their aircraft. On top of that they operate " pretending to be exercises " at regular intervals and operating into a civilian airport makes them more realistic.

[thetimesreader84]

Don't forget that Cobhams base is also hope to Flight Precision, the non-military radar calibration outfit. There is a lot of co operation between the two.

[tubtruck]

Ah well, will be flying business class back to Manchester from the US tommorow. This was a holiday trip to Florida with the wife. I used to fly into London then head up to MME on the BMI. I found first on the transpennine fairly comfortable though a rather slow 2 and a half hours but will have to get used to it in the future.

[N707ZS]

Cobham, simple Leeming is full, Leeming closes to traffic no good for 24 hour operation.
There is more chance of the Hawks moving to Teesside than the DA-20s going down there.

[maxtoon]

Ah well, will be flying business class back to Manchester from the US tommorow. This was a holiday trip to Florida with the wife.

on holiday in Florida and your posting on here .. hmm .. :suspect:

[danielmellor]

Could we ever see an airline back on the belfast route
if so which airline?

[DTVAirport]

Flybe may one day do a Belfast City, some will say they won't because they already fly into NCL from there, but it hasn't stopped them flying to both LBA & DSA & most of the airports down in the South West. Still a long shot though, apart from that, a based loco might try BFS, but that's an even longer shot.

[globetrotter79]

Ref flyBe..

MME-BHD may one day happen, but I'd guess you are far more likely to see BE at DTV in the guise of an extension to the current deal that they have with the Channel Isles tour operator to do a weekend MME-JER next summer. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that I suspect the only reason this didn't happen for 2009 (unlike virtually every other UK regional airport) was that no-one knew whether or not flyGlobespan would actually be operating from DTV or not until quite late.

We can only hope that if the MME-JER is indeed reinstated that it might provide a useful local connection with flyBe in the hope that they might be prepared to consider also MME-BHD later.

[EI-BUD]

Flybe may one day do a Belfast City


Interestingly, Flybe (JEA at the time) did a daily MME BHD service at one time. Late 80s early 90s. It was a daily SH6!

EI-BUD

[paarmo]

Belfast to Teesside on a regular basis. Why? Not only can't Peel see where their market is but neither can the gifted amateurs.

[Get me some traffic]

Squaddies? Catterick only 20 nm.

[DTVAirport]

I don't have anything to back this up but I'm pretty sure it worked for bmibaby with Boeing 737s, in terms of loads if not yields, so a Dash 8 should be no problem. I guess that theory applies to a lot of potential routes though.

[mattfalcus]

Biggest problem when bmibaby did Belfast was that it was only 1x daily, so faily useless for business pax. Same with their LGW flight.

[paarmo]

Sorry Matt but there is no synergy (now that's a useless modern word ) between Teesside's major industries and Belfast. Therefore not enough business travel to make even one flight a week worthwhile.
I think you are missing the point anyway, it's mass transportation Teesside needs not a single niche carrier. 30 niche carriers possibly but not just one.

[tubtruck]

Skyman my point is :- not everyone wanting to fly from Teesside is looking for a bargain bucket and spade flight, my reason for mentioning the class of travel class on this particular flight.
The choice and options of longer haul destinations has been seriously diminished now BMI have stopped flights to london from MME.
Your alternative for flying via AMS on KLM is poor given that a further change is then needed in the US if flying to MCO. It is possible to fly here direct from MAN.
The KLM seats are not flat beds, Virgin from MAN and BA from london are.
How does this knock MME stating that I am now having to make this my alternative route due to the loss of a service from the local airport?
Does it also not inform others of what I consider to be the next best alternative which as it also happens usually comes in at a better price than the KLM route and in a more comfortable cabin.

Oh and thanks for the support andrewmcharlton against this uncalled for attack. I am now questioning if I will bother posting here again as this forum comes across as very snappy to anyone who doesn't quite share the same patriotic views of MME as the apparent forum ring leaders.

[moosley78]

Though not usually posting on Pprune i have monitored comment on DTVA for many years and have supported the airport since the early 80,s. I watched as the airport reached the dizzy heights of transatlantic charters in the late 80,s to the present very difficult times.
Late last year i remember a thread about Thomsonfly decision to withdraw from the ALC service at the end of April09. At the time i remember checking the TOM website and seeing flights available for Winter 09-10 but assumed they would be withdrawn.
If i remember correctly there have been TOM winter charters to ALC for years even when there was no based aircraft.
Today i checked the TOM website and the winter 09-10 Tuesday flights are still selling.
I may have missed comment on this already (if so apologies) but clearly an airport can not help market a flight if it doesnt exist. What i find incredible is that even today with very few services there is no mention anywhere on the DTVA website about the TOM winter charter series to ALC.
Why???? Any potential customer visiting their site will think there is no winter service when there is?

[paarmo]

For some unknown reason the winter timetables and flight guides have not yet been finalised. If your glass is half full it suggests additions to last year's miserly offerings. If your glass is half empty then...........?

[mmeteesside]

Not much in them - only serving the 3 A's this winter - Alicante, Aberdeen and Amsterdam, how rubbish is that.

[paarmo]

A half empty glass then. Just wait until excelsis announce their full programme. Remeber they are promising London City so all letters between A and L are available to fill.

[DTVAirport]

Just to keep this thread alive, the reason for a lack of Grouse flights this year is because Robert Miller's (owner of semi-resident Global Express N288Z) Gunnarside Estate, where all the passengers off the majority of the other visiting bizjets go, only has 1000 Grouse this year compared to 10000 last year.

Sorry, can't blame management for this one!!

[paarmo]

Don't be fair and reasonable ...of course we can.

[DTVAirport]

Routes 2009 started on Monday, does anyone know if our Management team has made the trip over to Beijing to try and attract new business? I'm guessing not since there's usually a press release appears on the airport website?

[N707ZS]

Managment team should be sent up to Mr Miller's place to replace the missing grouse. There's at least a couple of old birds that could be shot!
Might be a bit tough though!:}

[paarmo]

Leaves on the line. Wrong type of snow. Not enough grouse.
Is there a theme to this?

[skyman771]

DTVAirport
only has 1,000 Grouse this year compared to 10,000 last year
Interestingly I quoted this 10:1 reduction statistic to a well connected colleague of mine who actively participates in such "sports", receiving an informed response that as far as he knew there was no significant reduction in Grouse numbers & absolutely astounded at the figures I quoted. Could it simply be that the grouse moor, like its neighboring airport has simply failed miserably this year:E

[paarmo]

This is what makes Teesside Airport unique. How many other airports in the world could point towards grouse as being one of the reasons for a downturn in passenger figures.
Eat your heart out Ryanair our excuses are better than your's.

[andrewmcharlton]

Good point Paarmo, but would the Grouse stand up if they could travel for free?

[paarmo]

Would grouse stand for anything? After all the collective noun could be a complaint of grouse or possibly a whinge. Mind you if they are very well known it could be a bottle.

[Clyde Parthangel]

Since TuiFly are withdrawing from the UK completely at the end of October and (from experience) their Newcastle - Hannover flights were always chocka with Army types and family going backwards and forwards, maybe somebody should point someone in the direction of a Teesside - Hannover service??.....

[mattfalcus]

North East - Germany has always been really underserved in my opinion. All we have when TUI leave is the NCL-DUS service, which isn't cheap. More flights to Germany from either airport would work I think.

[thebobster]

Im surprised Excelsis haven't picked up on a german service, however they have gone quiet all of a sudden, I wonder why ?

Rob

[Jamesair]

It was hoped that Air Berlin would pick up the route...but nothing seems to have happened (yet)

[SWBKCB]

Not sure if this is new or a re-hash of old news

Excelsis delays City arrival plans - Wharf (http://www.wharf.co.uk/2009/09/excelsis-delays-city-arrival-p.html)

[andrewmcharlton]

Excelsis are probably planning on moving to Peterlee International to Hawkinge in a converted Spit PR9, about as much chance as their advertised plan anyway.

[paarmo]

Oh ye of little faith Andrew C. You might be able to tell us why Tui pulled NCL when they were apparently "chocka" according to an earlier correspondent.
You know I really can't make my mind up about excelsis. Sometimes they appear proffessional and others they are complete clowns. When they are clowns it dosen't augur well for any flights from Teesside and at the moment if there was even a glimmer of hope the Peel self promotion team would be in overdrive trumpetting the news.

[skyman771]

No respite in bad news, DTV down to 33rd place in rankings on a month on month basis virtually 25% below Humberside in 32nd place. No movements on the board at all for rest of today & not we are not yet into winter.
Is there a valid business case, presumably will need to be backed by further investment, in keeping the airport open ?:(

[MME4eva]

I think the lack of flights on the website flight info section is down to technological problems rather than there being no flights at all...the BBC page for DTV has had the same message for several days stating that DTV cannot bring live flight information at this time.

Not the most professional of situations to have but it seems no one at DTV is in a hurry to sort out the glitch.

Any news on Ryanair for next summer yet re: GRO and ALC?

[paarmo]

7 arrivals today. 3 Amsterdam,1 Aberdeen and 3 private. No wonder they are in no rush to update the screens.

[andrewmcharlton]

Might be worth adding buses to arrivals to make it look busier? :ok:

[maxtoon]

and the train's of course :ok:

[andrewmcharlton]

Taxi's might make it spill over onto two pages on Ceefax too

[skyman771]

MME4eva
I think the lack of flights on the website flight info section is down to technological problems
Do you really believe this ?
I realise that as an employee you need to put a brave face on things, but surely you must also see "the glass as (more than!) half empty".

[andrewmcharlton]

Well said Skyman, this glass is in fact upside down on the drainer.....

[davidjohnson6]

Cheer up a bit - MME still gets more passengers than Plymouth

[paarmo]

PLYMOUTH !!!!!!!. We are much bigger than Plymouth. I like to think of us being in the same league as ASF or similar. (Betcha have to google that one DJ6)

[davidjohnson6]

I like to think of us being in the same league as ASF or similarNever really thought of MME at the same time as Astrakhan.... but then what do I know ?

Betcha have to google that one DJ6 Google is unnecessary when you have OAG data on your PC

[paarmo]

ASF. You fly in on Tractor Airways. Get a Tractor taxi to town Stay in a cowshed cunningly described as a hotel . Eat green brown or grey sludge which all tastes the same.Mind you it was over 20yrs ago and Teesside has changed since then.

[davidjohnson6]

KLM are offering a round trip from Durham Tees Valley to Astrakhan for £1,311.80 over the half-term bank holiday in October, departing Sat 24 Oct and returning Sat 31 Oct going via Amsterdam and Moscow, with a codeshare onto Aeroflot from Moscow.

Maybe a way to entertain the kids while they're out of school ? Would give them something to talk about it in the playground at the very least.

The Russia guidebook I have at home devotes a few pages on Astrakhan - perhaps you could go visit the Astrakhan Kremlin with its 2 cathedrals, the history museum, or the remains of the monastery ? Astrakhan even has its own (genuine) Irish pub

Alas my guidebook for the UK has rather less to say on the sights of Middlesbrough, but I'm sure it's a nice enough place

[paarmo]

No mention of coloured sludge and staying in the cowshed after dark to avoid being stabbed/shot/robbed.How things have changed. At least in Middlesbrough you can understand what your robbers are telling you to hand over. MME - ASF I wonder how Ryanair would describe that one.
Have you never wondered why Thomson's don't go there? Save your money and take the kids to Disneyland instead.

[chrism20]

MME - ASF I wonder how Ryanair would describe that one.


Aberdeen/Edinburgh/Newcastle (South)/Leeds (North) - Moscow (North or what ever direction it is) is how this would be marketed one guess.

[paarmo]

AT LAST REAL DESTINATIONS FROM TEESSIDE.
Just checked the Winter destinations on MME Website. New York,Singapore,Hong Kong,Lagos and many more. I kid you not. This is a real coup for the airport and is obviously why the Press Office has been so quiet of recent months.
Also other boring flights to mundane destinations but the headline destinations are absolutely first class. Well done the Peel management team!

[davidjohnson6]

paarmo - what have you been drinking, and can I have some of it please ? :-)

[paarmo]

http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/assets/_files/documents/sep_09/peel__1253520970_Winter_Flight_Guide_0910.pdf

[davidjohnson6]

Apart from Lapland and Barbados....the remaining routes seem to be via Amsterdam. Am I missing something here ?

[paarmo]

Nobody mentioned the word DIRECT. It just shows the lengths they have had to go to to fill 2 pages of winter flight timetables. I think it was called spin when Tony Blair did it. Why let the truth get in the way of a good headline.
Correction just checked again ONE PAGE.

[skyman771]

Paarmo
Suppose they have to fill the website with some content. Still room for improvement though, just spent last few minutes clicking away at the page (no links!) e.g. Singapore so that I can arrange flight to SIN in time to nip up to Raffles for a Gin Sling, though looks like you have already participated in an effective substitute!
Would it not simply have been easier to to put a link direct onto the KL timetable?, though in reality as regards Eastbound flights then many NE pax may be better served by being directed to EK / BA websites :E..............

[Bartrams]

Arrived at Newcastle airport yesterday lunch time to an amazing scene of people!! Seriously though a very interesting sight of Durham University staff with a couple of desks set up welcoming incoming students for the new term year.Saw a lot get off the Emirates and other international flights around that time.it brought it back to me that this name change to Durham TV is all very well,but if we have no flights,then what is/was the point?

It obviously hasnt attracted many (extra) passengers,surely the original reason for the change? Hence still no services.

At the risk of starting the debate all over again lets go back to Teesside Airport (or Paarmo international!!) Where are all students flying to who are going to the local universities here?

We need our own identity back!!

[MME4eva]

I think we can presume that the bmi service and DUB route would have been pulled regardless of the name change.

The change to DTV was at a time when a lot of airports were doing the same and the MME management for better or worse thought they would get in on the act.

I really struggle to imagine MME in any better a situation under Teesside International...although they would have saved thousands rebranding of course.

P.S I am not an employee of DTV or associated companies!

[Lancelot37]

We need our own identity back!!
==========================

I'll go with that one. The name change was the daftest thing ever. It made things worse, not better. It's still not too late to change both the name and the managment and claim back some business.

Don't know what others hear it being called, if they live locally, but I've only ever heard it called Teesside Airport and never Durham.

The name has never been accepted. Try asking at an overseas airport for Durham TV. We've even been told there is no such place! So much for "a need to identify with the area"!

[andrewmcharlton]

Good points but the sad fact is changing the name back (or in fact retaiing it in the first place) probably would not make a jot of difference to the status of the operators.

[Skilly]

I am pretty new to the area so you locals can probably answer my question.

When did Teeside International change its name to DTV?

When travelling north up the A1from Catterick I keep seeing signposts for Teeside airport :confused:, it seems someone forgot to mention the name change to the Highways Agency ,surely this doesn't do much for the promotion of DTV.

Skilly

[OMGitsDAVE]

I do believe it was in 2004 - and the signs haven't been updated anywhere really, unless there are new turnoffs, where there are a FEW signs.

[paarmo]

Let's get back to basics.
Excelsis and Middlesbrough FC management teams have more credibility than Teesside airport's.They have lost 2/3 rds of their customers in 2 years. It's a shambles. The Management Team have to stand up and be counted ,take responsibility and go.
The airport needs a new start and that includes the name.Either revert to the name by which it is known Europe wide or choose a name which has some connection to the area. Personally I favour Parmo International which has a certain local flavour ( but there again I may be biased ).
I know that these posts are seen by the "Mangement Team" so have the courage to do the right thing. GO!
Sorry I must go on with this rant.
Until 2 years ago the baggage reclaim signs still said Teesside. The signs on all major routes still say Teesside as the Highways Agency say that it would confuse motorists by sending them in the direction of DTV when it is nowhere near Durham. This is the truth and ask the Highways Agency for confirmation. ALL airports I have travelled back to the UK from in bucket and spade Europe still call it Teesside. This is the emperors new clothes syndrome.
I've taken several deep breaths and I am now calm.

[JKKne]

Are we not clutching at straws by suggesting the name or brand is the root of the airport's problem?

If it was changed back to Teesside would Thomson and TC come rolling back? Would Ryanair fall back in love? Would bmi be inconsolable over a terrible mistake?

MME has never been a particularly strong airport and despite a slight charter boom I do think that people expect far far too much from it considering the much stronger competition to the North and South of the airport.

Why would a low cost bother? Ryanair could probably walk into slots at NCL, it certainly has at Leeds and both are in much stronger strategic positions

Teessides' industrial expertise is strong, no doubt about that but does it warrant an international airport? I'd imagine half these oil and chemical executives fly in via Emirates or LHR through NCL anyway

I think realistically, people need to scale back and think realistically for MME.

The question that pertubes me, what is realistic?

[skyman771]

JKKneWhy would a low cost bother? Ryanair could probably walk into slots at NCL, it certainly has at Leeds and both are in much stronger strategic positions
"Some say" that the name change was carried out in attempt to set up a relationship with RYR, & when RYR's request for "Newcastle South" was
justifiably thrown out, then the next best thing was to look to a way to incorporate Durham. This may have made the city of Durham happy?, but clearly not RYR whose presence at DTV is minimal.;)

In all seriousness guy's, the absolute fact is that the area is not large enough for two airports striving for the traffic the region creates. It never has been!, we have had all the "bumpf" as to catchment area debates on this thread over the years but the fact is that NCL & DTV are too close to each other. Outside Southern England then needs can be catered by Airports c. 100 miles apart, EDI to the North, NCL & LBA to the South. DTV is surplus to requirements in such a scenario.
Given the state of the country then Govt. funded major expenditure on regional airports is unlikely & presumably in DTV's case nil as there are other regional projects that can demonstrate a greater need. If & when the Government ever looks into the transport infrastracture of N.E. England & Southern Scotland then it would seem sensible to address communications between these areas by spending on much needed road improvements, thereby providing easier access accross the whole region from the borders & beyond in the North, accross to Carlisle & Cumbria in the West and all points into South Yorkshire. One would require a very strong industrial base to justify a higher concentration of Airports serving a particular part of the region, and as the NE in general has suffrered a steady decline over the past 30 years then so has the "special" case for two separate airports at NCL & DTV.

[Skilly]

I have just downloaded the winter flight schedule for DTV from the link Paarmo put up. Well I was absolutely bowled over by the piss poor flight options they have over the winter period. Two flights to Barbados, two flights to Malta but I am spoilt for choice going to Alicante as there is a flight every Tuesday, bargin!

Amsterdam daily three and Aberdeen four flights respectively, is there really only seven flights out of DTV a day?

I suppose DTV could advertise Amsterdam as a replacement stag weekend location to Newcastle and Aberdeen as erm urr well Aberdeen with connecting in flights to Bergen and Stavanger. I commute back to Aberdeen every weekend but I am priced out of flying that route on Eastern's Ford Escort with props so I stick myself to the train window for 5 hrs on a cheap fare.

With so many HM Forces in the NE I would have thought DTV might try and exploit the opportunity for loco flights to say Germany or have other quick thinking airports like LBA or NCL done that already? There is nothing standing out at DTV that makes me think about flying from there, absolutely sod all. Skyman hit the nail on the head in his last well written post, DTV I believe will struggle with it's bigger neighbours and especially in a volatile economic environment.

Off the subject a little but the last time I flew out of Teeside to Split on an RAF Tristar I arrived the night before (8 am flight and poor trains from Manchester) the caretaker was locking up about 1930 hrs and seemed a bit embarrassed by this, bless him he let me sleep in the Shell or ICI meeting room overnight. Does the caretaker still lock up around 1930 hrs?

[andrewmcharlton]

Skilly, I'd be surprised if he stayed that late, he's probably away a bit earlier to catch the train home.....:*

[paarmo]

Skyman,if there is not enough passenger volume in the North East, then why were both MME and NCL having huge increases in passenger volume 2 yrs ago. Ryanair have demonstrated that given favourable market conditions you can actually grow a market from nothing in a very short time. These favourable market conditions will return and sooner than most doom and gloom merchants would predict. The leisure industry on Teesside has never been busier and this will overspill into the holiday market sooner rather than later.
As for transport infrastructure I do not see why Scotland which nowadays is effectively a foreign country should have any bearing whatsoever on Teesside.The problem with commuter flights from Teesside especially to London is that we are too close to fly and too far to drive/train.
Growth at Teesside has always been based on the holiday market and the LHR loss whilst hurting local pride was not a major blow in the longterm.
As for needing a strong industrial base to justify an airport,have you actually been to Teesside recently. It is a hive of current activity and building for further industrial enterprises. It is the industrial powerhouse for the North of England. Leeds has banking, Manchester Leisure,Liverpool culture with Newcastle..............Metro Centre?
We don't need to be a special case just to have someone in charge at the Airport who knows what they are doing.The name change is a very minor issue but it demonstrates how inept and out of touch the management are.

[RoyHudd]

Could attract loyal subjects of England, and even a few pilgrims!

[Wellington Bomber]

Skilly

The last aberdeen does not get in until about 2045hrs

And stop moaning about the prices you tight t*** flights very popular and punctual, you pay for what you get

[OMGitsDAVE]

Paarmo, knocked the nail on its head!

I do think that DTV will see a large increase for next summer, with the Tall Ships in Hartlepool. Wouldn't surprise me if Northern Rail actually had a few more trains stopping there each week (Currently one), to deal with the overcrowding.

Should be a good week in August next year, let's just wait and see.

[Lancelot37]

I've heard that a new rail halt is proposed, and it will be relocated nearer the Airport.

[OMGitsDAVE]

"Proposed", but this would mean only Tees Metro services would get it.
Northern Rail have no intentions of stopping at DTV other than the one weekly service on a Sunday.

I sent an email to them about it, 3 weeks later they reply:
"Dear Mr Clark,
We currently have no intentions to stop at Durham Tees Valley airport for services other than the one that is currently placed. Stopping at DTV would mean a hefty workload to try and re-position train timetables to allow the one or two extra minutes necessary, meaning that access rights could be constrained.

Although there are no intentions of changing the routes, I have forwarded your E-Mail to the appropriate section".

[skyman771]

Paarmo
why were both MME and NCL having huge increases in passenger volume 2 yrs ago
Err particularly in DTV's case then 100% increase on nothing is still nothing ! The market at that time was also supported by carriers obsession as to "bums on seats" irrespective of price, which stimulated pax no.'s if not revenues. Put the fares up & the pax. soon disappeared! As for Scotland reference, then this was to reflect airport availability to the North of the region as a whole, whatever your interpretation as to Scotland's position within the UK, the fact is that it generates substantial no.'s of pax from the borders and further north into the NE regional airport framework. As you quite correctly state Scotland should not have any bearing whatsoever on Teesside it doesn't!, but this IS part of DTV's problem... not many areas do have a bearing on DTV, only those, as you state, that are looking for cheap holiday flights (which as I suggested earlier disappered faster than the increasing fares). In reality those pax that can afford to pay more are now well catered for under the existing infrastructure, it may not be the best, but it does suffice. The problem is that the Tour Operators themselves have also identified this and it is one reason why they choose to prefer DTV's neighbours with their flight offerings.
Insofar as your summary of DTV & indeed many other parts of the region. My Company has very strong business links with Teesside and we maintain a constant presence, I am well aware as to the position of the local economy & even if I were to borrow your rose tinted spec's I would not be able to interpret the current situation as you choose to represent it.
I do however concur with your last paragraph comment on the airport management of which my views were well known. I am unsure as to whose "pride" was hurt at the loss of LHR but I would not expect many outside the current management to have experienced such an emotion. Most people that I come accross have by now overcome what frustration did exist and simply adapted to other alternatives. I suspect many of these pax. having now adapted to alternative arrangements are not seeking further change.

[airhumberside]

"Proposed", but this would mean only Tees Metro services would get it.
Northern Rail have no intentions of stopping at DTV other than the one weekly service on a Sunday.
Tees Metro services will replace the current Northern services, and may even be operated by Northern. So while Northern arent going to add any extra DTV stops now, when the Metro service happens with relocated station, then they will

[paarmo]

Skyman, No one mentioned the percentages of increase of passengers ,just that there was a massive increase. The downturn was not instigated by the raising of prices. The prices stayed the same and the loads stayed the same, the airlines withdrew. Why they withdrew is still a matter of conjecture.
As far as I know passengers have never travelled from Southern Scotland to Teesside after all it is a 2 1/2 hour journey by car at the best of times. We are actually a long way from Jockland. I did think that you meant road and rail links but again they have no impact on Teesside.
I do think it is patronising to suggest that the only people travelling from Teesside are those looking for a cheap holiday although I do not see why it costs more to travel by air in the school holidays. I hope the staff are paid more in the school holidays!
Your company may maintain a presence in the area but they obviously don't go out much. Every one I know in the manufacturing industries in the area has never been busier than in the last 6 months. This includes Corus who are working flat out to complete orders even under the threat of redundancy . The problems mainly come from foreign based owners who are under pressure in other strands of their business.Teesside is booming at the moment believe it or not. I have lived and worked through two recessions in the 70s and 80s and this one is nothing as compared to those. The difference this time is that City is involved and so therefore it is headline news. My specs are not rose tinted they are clear and show the realities of life. The only problem at Teesside Airport is the people who are managing it. They get paid huge salaries when things are going well but only earn that money when things are going wrong. They are not earning that money and have not done so in the last 2 years. What did they do to hold onto Globespan ,Tui, BMI etc? Obviously not enough. They either did not realise the enormity of their inaction or perhaps they did and this is part of the master plan.
As an aside the Metro is operating the same rolling stock over the same rails on a more frequent schedule. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

[DTVAirport]

paarmo - the management are not on huge salaries, at least, not compared to the management at other airports. In fact, most of the staff are on poor wages compared to their counterparts at other airports, and that's half the problem - you pay peanuts & you get Monkey's - and as such, DTVA is like a zoo!

[OMGitsDAVE]

Because of the prospect of the Tees Metro, Im pretty sure there will be some increases because of people being able to actually get to the airport, due to the loss of the bus links by Arriva, there is a need!

As paarmo has said, there have been huge increases in use of Teesside manufacturing industries, and Hartlepool is also one to show for that. What we need is trains to stop there for the time being, to keep that small amount of passengers going. A train every hour would do it, meaning the through Saltburn - Darlington trains would stop every 2 trains - atleast its a frequent service, and the airport can boast good transport links to major north east areas. From Thornaby, there's links to Hartlepool (to London by Grand Central), Newcastle, Hexham, Manchester Airport, Leeds, York and many more. This atleast gives the airport some kind of service in which it requires - the bus was not quick enough as it had called at (From Middlesbrough) - Stockton & Yarm. Therefore taking the long route round.

The airport also needs new management, and management that care about the airport, not just whats in their wallets. Im sure a majority of you will agree - DTVA staff are lacking, quite badly, in the management fields.

[andrewmcharlton]

Gentlemen,

If you look at Newcastle you will see that only 11% of all passengers use ANY form of public transport to get to the airport, that is a complete red herring.

You also need to look more closely at industrial Teesside. Unemployment has been soaring and industrial plants have been CLOSED and mothballed across the region. This dream that the economy is ready to soar and bring prosperity quickly is tosh.

The lack of connection to the capital means that a lot of onward connections are lost as well as the daily commute to the smoke, it does have a knock on.

Teesside has always been the poor relation to the other neighbouring airports and frankly always will. Apart from a few who will doubtless take a great deal of delight in correting me, Teesside itself is a dump. Sorry to break it to you but people go elsewhere for weekend city breaks, cultural outlets and to take their onward connections for inward tourism. I know there are a lot of great places within easy travel but it cannot compete on any basis with any of the other closeby airports.

Ryanair et al are not the panacea as they bring their own set of problems and if you actually look at RYR's route selection policy its usually a very short term gain before much chopping and changing at everywhere other than their major mega bases.

Someone mentioned earlier about the military and Germany; not sure if you've noticed but we have very little military presence in Germany now compared to years ago and if a loco can't make NCL to Germany work it seems unlikely that MME will do.

The organisation and management appear a shambles but reallistically what does anyone expect them to pull off given the economy, the infrastructure and the relative wealth of their local clientele?

[mmeteesside]

The bus service is still there, an hourly link to Hurworth/Darlington and Stockton/Middlesbrough. Takes around half an hour from Stockton, 55 mins from Middlesbrough, and under half an hour from Darlington. It does not go via Yarm any more though, which means people from Yarm need to change.

[ConstantFlyer]

Well said, andrewmcharlton.

Teesside Airport is not alone in the challenges it faces. Perhaps it ought to look elsewhere for inspiration. Many years ago, I lived in Belgium for a while. At the time, Sabena operated a Beech 99 from Liege, via Ostend, I think, to London. That link has long since demised, and indeed Liege now has, according to OAG, only one scheduled flight a week - a Belle Air A319 to Prishtina. However, somehow it managed to see over 400,000 passengers pass through last year and 500,000 tonnes of freight. Many of the passengers are on charter flights to sunnier climes than eastern Belgium, and a lot of the freight is in transit, with TNT, EL Al and most recently Avient using the place as a hub.

Let's remember that Liege is a former iron and steel town, of both industrial and manufacturing heritage. Much of that has gone, replaced by mechanical and space tech industries, biotech and science. It's airport - served by regular buses to the railway station - is linked into a fast and efficient motorway and rail network from the city. The happy burghers of Liege can therefore be at Brussels Airport in about an hour, and CDG or FRA in 2-3. So how come LGG is so successful? Why can't MME emulate some of that success? Liege has carved out a number of key niches over recent years, and sought to cleverly fill them. Yes, Brussels takes a lot of cargo; but runway capacity and night operations are constrained, and road traffic is heavy: So Liege has developed into a hub for perishable cargoes, with fast handling, customs and road transportation provided.

Perhaps MME managers need to sit down with One North East, Yorkshire Forward, local authorities, business leaders, operators and regional transport planners to brainstorm some potential niches. I'm not saying Teesside could or should do what Liege has done; but it's an inspiration and an example of how an industrial centre sandwiched between larger air transport centres can still make itself a going concern.

[skyman771]

ConstantFlyer - A very interesting post, and example as to how an innovative management team can survive & grow given the close proximity of a much larger hub.
A few comments, I can see that in retrospect with decent management there probably was an opportunity to develop akin to that at Liege, but for any number of reasons over the years all possible seeds of development have not been nurtured to grow into strong thriving areas of business. Ironically you mention TNT where at DTV the great promises of an expanding regional freight hub have simply evaporated. Why ? well much of it is down to politics, in the UK distribution centers have been set out having regard to communications & what resource there was available directed there & encouraging further external investment. The road transport network in the UK is 30 years out of date with virtually zero resource being directed at the North East so that effectively killed off DTV. Most politicians have more than one agenda and it is the same at One North East where with "more than one mouth to feed" there can easily be a lack of focus on either DTV or indeed NCL.
On another tack then there is some cynicism in that the EU is conveniently located in Brussels & that perhaps in the availability of grants & subsidies, then when handouts are required, there may perhaps be those closer at hand with connections to Liege to lobby and provide a strong business case for the whole region if not Belgium as a whole. Clearly something has worked with as you state fast & efficient trains & road network!
With the current management team and with their paymasters based in the North West then again perhaps those with the greater management skills and experience are attracted to more rewarding projects away from DTV. Politics enter into all spheres of operation and I have seen nothing to suggest that government performance in respect of transport over the last 30 years is going to improve, lets face it even "local lad" Blair quickly become seduced by the bright lights & trappings elsewhere, when he above all had the ability to direct resource “Up North” as opposed to empty jingoistic promises.

[paarmo]

AC and Skyman I really must take you to task.
Teesside is not a dump. Yes it has less desirable areas but every town in the world has them including Newcastle. No one ever said that Teesside should rebrand itself as THE place to go for a weekend getaway.
If you actually came to Teesside you would see for yourself the strength of the industrial heartland of the North.
Skyman when was the last time you used the motorway system in Europe?
Yes they are very good for 50 miles and then you have to stop,pay, drive on for 50 miles, stop, pay etc. If you used the free roads around the motorway system then you would have something to complain about. I travel 220miles down the A1 two or three times a month and it always takes between 3hrs 5mins and 3hrs 15mins without fail The only time I have been delayed was during the snowstorms earlier this year when it took me 45 mins extra. Yes the roads are crowded but that is because this is a crowded island. Tell me anywhere else in the world where you can average 70mph for over 200miles.
Get real and both of you get facts before you start running down this marvellous country of ours.
DTV Airport. I realise that the management at MME do not get paid Heathrow type salaries but they still get paid a lot more than their average customer or at least they did when they had any. As for cargo flights TNT left as well as the passenger companies and it would appear not enough was done to keep them either, after all everyone has his price even multi national companies.

[andrewmcharlton]

Paarmo, Teesside is a dump. Drive up or down the A19 and anyone who isn't from Teesside will be appalled at the blight on an otherwise attractive landscape.

The motorways in Europe are a joy compared to the UK. Pay as you go, vote with your feet and you find generally under utilised roads, in a good state of maintenance at a price admittedly but take Belgium and Netherlands with almost completely lit road networks? Stopping for 30 seconds to pay is an easy way to go compared to the appalling roadworks generally found in the UK.

I am as proud of the UK as any man and I am not running down the UK. Just trying to get you to see that MME is not going to compete (as it never really has in modern times) with any of the other airports neighbouring.

Whatever the management are paid they have limited options in this current economic climate, the infrastructure and the desire of locals and incomers to use the facilities.

The North East has about the worst unemployment in the UK and Teesside is about the worst in the region. There is neither the commercial case nor the willing passengers if there was to utilise the airport on any grand scale.

MME would be better off delivering charters, freight and GA than kidding itself and its users that it is an International Airport in any great sense of the word. The timetable they published is a joke, period.

I am very proud of our region and my country and it has jack to do with that. It has everything to do with deluding anyone that it can be something grand.

Reality is that the Metro may never happen, even if it does it will make no difference. The branding won't matter too much because in the final analysis not enough people want to fly to it or from it. Supply and demand.

[DTVAirport]

Yes Teesside is never going to be as big as it's neighbours, but we should have hit 1m pax per year - and hovvered around that mark for a very long time, at the very least we should have a charter airline with a seasonal one aircraft base - that's something that's worked for decades & should still work for many decades to come.

[andrewmcharlton]

Absolutely agree DTV, I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

Just looking at the CAA web statistics for scheduled movements MME is in 38th place currently.

[DTVAirport]

Aren't we below Humberside now? No offence to them, but that should NEVER have happened, regardless of how bad things get. I know the management are limited in what they can do due to the conditions they face etc, as has been discussed endlessly in recent days on this thread - but they should still be doing a lot better than they are.

Kerry Quinn is a puppet on a string, Hugh Lang is basically still the MD of DTVA, i.e. two people are doing the same job, I also am told there's a member of staff within Peel who's job it is to go out looking for airlines and business, not sure if its just for DTV or for all Peel airports, either way, isn't this something the MD does at most other airports?

Also, didn't Kerry state not to long ago in an interview that her favourite route was Newquay & she loved seeing the surfing crowd boarding the aircraft - even though the route had finished months before - does she actually know what's going on in her own airport?

[highwideandugly]

Dont you just love these DTV threads? same old same old. The truth is the airport will never make the big league.It never did.Never will.

The truth is the industry(aviation and country)is in such a mess that any developing airports and I include DTV in that will struggle to make their mark,no matter how good the management or will is.

DTV has always struggled in the shadow of Newcastle and with Leeds recent Ryanair developments-always will.

Truth is there are no airlines out there willing to 'develop' an airport.The costs are too high and the risks too great.
Teesside people have shown they will support limted holiday traffic,but schedules ?? Never.

Metro is a red herring in a catch 22 situation.What comes first 50 people per train or a flight for them to join?

Not sure what the future holds for airports like DTV,Coventry ,Humberside and even Carlisle which has today announced plans for development.They in my opinion are in the same boat-someone(Stobbarts?)is going to loose an awful lot of money there!!

The future of DTV may be come clearer in november when a major announcement is to be made over direction and staffing.

Fingers crossed!!!!

[skyman771]

Andrewmcharlton :- Thanks for addressing reality !
highwideandugly :- My fears are for you in having to cross more than your fingers in respect of any imminent anouncement. In it's simplest form if you can't match your costs & overheads with revenue then you make a loss. That DTV's revenue has fallen in the past year is a "given" and with historic losses then the writing is out there for all to see.
For me the only subjectivity is in what areas cuts can be made without impacting on day to day operations, clearly the forthcoming winter period could be very grim indeed:(

[pug]

Humberside is still making a (reduced) profit despite quite big cuts in charter services this last couple of years. I dont see why DTV could not do the same with a minimal staff reduction/operating hour cut? I suppose Peel seem to be wanting a large throughput of pax like at LPL but it just aint gunna happen at MME.

[OMGitsDAVE]

I was at a meeting last night, and I can now confirm that the Metro system IS coming. The funding is coming through, and Hartlepool works have already began.

I did say that it would come to light, and DTV will see 15-minutely frequencies. New Stock, New Stations (Teesside Park, James Cook Hosp), and much more. Services will link together at Thornaby, where two routes will run (Darlington - Saltburn & Nunthorpe - Hartlepool). All these services will call at Teesside Park additionally.

Just thought I should shed some light on this.

[Ops Guy]

Now all you need are some flights for the passengers on the trains to travel on!!!!!:E

[andrewmcharlton]

OMG - What they tell you and what happens are often two differnet things. If we believed everything we'd been told we'd be going up and down on hoverpacks and Sinclair C5's.

There is an election to come, 5 years of cuts whatever government we elect and things like that will be first on the chopping block. No private financier is going to invest in that, it's like Turkeys voting for Christmas. Don't get too carried away....

[paarmo]

AC3 and Skyman have finally nailed their colours to the mast so I would treat anything they have said in the past on this post with deep suspicion.
Now that they have both come out of the closet I think that any further posts they make should be treated with a certain amount of disdain and derision as they are incapable of objectivity.

[DTVAirport]

incoming!!

[andrewmcharlton]

Paarmo, why do you believe that you should treat anything with "deep suspicion".

Are we not allowed to have a view that is contrary to yours without being suspicious?

I would love to be able to see a way that MME can fulfill it's potential, however, I am a brutal realist and I would love to know what I have said which is inaccurate or misleadling for example (save for my own view of the magnificent Teesside vista as I pass by on the A19 with is most subjective I agree).

The statistics, history and economy speak for themselves loud and clear do they not?

Suggesting that you treat anything we say with disdain is a bit strong, unduly personal and if anything suggests it isn't I that has pinned my flag to the mast, whatever that is supposed to imply.

[skyman771]

Andrewmcharlton waste of time in readdressing your posting(s), there are some who take exception to those that do not share their view that "the glass is always half full!".
As to other issues raised by paarmo, then criticism and disagreement of postings on this forum is fine, more personal uninformed conclusions and comments directed specifically at other correspondants is not & rather petty. Enough said.

[mmeman]

Skyman - could you point me in the direction of where you have found out that the airport has been making losses historically?

[paarmo]

AC3 you must have very thin skin if you think I am abusing you.After all you did abuse 1/2million Teessider's on the basis of a 13 minute drive through Teesside at 70 mph on a semi motorway. If I was to abuse you it would be to draw your attention to two contemporary Geordies Cheryl " EEEEEEEE AH THOUGHT " Cole and Gazza who to all of us normal folks seem to epitomise the Geordie, having in mind your short drive through Teesside it certainly seems to equate well with your thinking.
Skyman, you state that your company maintains a presence in Teesside which suggests that you are in the Psychic Research business.
You both obviously have no idea what the customers of Teesside Airport want or deserve and are as out of touch as the Management.
I am all for debate and healthy disagreement , but only from a position of knowledge and not ill thought out ideas which have sometimes worked at other locations in the UK.
Teesside Airport has always been the "Peoples Airport" and will continue to be so if we can get someone in the airport to understand what the people want.

[andrewmcharlton]

Paarmo: Nonsense. I haven't abused anyone in expressing my view of a place and its visual appeal, far from it, I was at pains to say there are lots of nice places nearby. If you think Teesside is a paragon of beauty it's a lost cause. I have lived in the region, worked in teesside and surrounding areas and have no personal gripe about any individual.

I just thought your "treat everything he says with disdain" is a tad over the top.

As you say base an argument on knowledge. By what measure is MME in any way a success or by what measure do any of the key economic indicators for Teesside as a region suggest that the airport and the area is about to enjoy any future success? Look at investment, employment, net GDP, productivity and output, disposable income and employment trends and explain how it can happen?

I am a bit baffled by your "People's Airport" moniker for MME. The people want flights they can afford to destinations they wants to go to (and can afford and sustain). It's not just down to the airport staff to win new routes as airlines would be beating a path to their door if they thought there was a sustainable package of routes. They aren't because there isn't.

The airport usage statistics historically, not just for right now, are pitiful reading. It maybe that different management could have improved some things at some times, however, economics and supply and demand are speaking loudly. That's not my subjective opinion its fact.

Rather than disdaining my post show me and everyone else the signs of growth and development based on knowledge and facts....prove me wrong.

[paarmo]

Teesside itself is a dump.
Do you remember saying that AC3?
It does not seem that you are objective in your posts and you obviously have no idea what the average "Smoggie" wants from his local airport.
We don't want 3 flights a week to Gdansk or similar just a decent choice of holiday locations in the Med and the Canaries. Not much to ask is it?

[davidjohnson6]

Never ceases to amaze how an airport with so little traffic compared to Heathrow can generate vastly more discussion ! :}

[andrewmcharlton]

I do remember saying that and that is my personal subjective opinion. It looks terrible, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However, consider for a moment that most airports rely ona two way flow of traffic and MME has to attract people to come in not just fly people out. In that task they have patently failed. Blame who you like but changing management in these troubled times won't make a ha'peth of difference.

I would't use the derogatory term "Smoggie" and I would summise that what people want from any airport is a selection of appropriate flights to appropriate destinations according to their needs, budgets and desires. This only happens if it is economically viable.

I want flights to New York and other long haul from NCL but I can't have them because it is not economically sustainable, I have to live with it and face facts about what the airport can reasonably manage. If MME can't sustain their holiday flights it it wont happen. They can't and it isn't.

That has nothing to do with anything but economics.

[paarmo]

DJ6 marvellous isn't it? If Southerner's had as much spare time as us workers int North wouldn't life be grand.
AC if you actually READ post 167 you will see that CERTAIN appears in it.
If bloggers actually READ WHAT IS WRITTEN instead of scanning it and putting their own interpretaion on it we would be much better off.
The term "Smoggie" is not derogatory as long as it is used by a Smoggie.
As for changing the management, I do think that it can't be worse than what is happening at the moment. Peel have little experience in running airports when things are not booming and their inexperience has caught them out. An experienced management team would surely have recognised the warning signs and put an emergency plan into place.All business's have a "Domesday Scenario" if they have any credibility, but it seems that Peel did not. Assuming of course that they want to run Teesside as an airport and not a Housing development.

[skyman771]

MMEMAN
The accounts of "Peel Holdings (Airports) Limited" make interesting reading.

[pug]

Skyman, how have you got hold of them if you dont mind me asking? Are DTV's obtainable as HUY's can be found with a search online due to the council still owning a share..

[BombardierCR7]

Hearing from a good source that LBA-SOU with Eastern is being moved to MME along with the last J41 currently based at LBA. Any truth in this?

[Lancelot37]

The accounts of "Peel Holdings (Airports) Limited" make interesting reading.
================================================

Tell us more.

[uklad007]

Ive just had an e-mail from MME confirming twice daily service to SOU from MME with Eastern - so must be true.

[MME4eva]

Excellent news!! Well it may only be a small step but it is a step in the right direction at least.

I really like Eastern's confidence in MME but I really hope there will be the support for the service that wasn't there for BRS and BRU.

I echo Kerry Quinn's words:

Durham Tees Valley Airport Director, Kerry Quinn added, "We are delighted with the introduction of this new route and what we need now is for the local people and businesses, who have been so vocal in their backing for Durham Tees Valley, to actively support the service.

"If they do then we are confident that we can secure further services and move forward with our development plans for the airport."

[Flightrider]

From the timings in their press release, it looks like TeesSide-Leeds-Southampton twice-daily. I can't imagine it would take a J41 1h55 to fly from TeesSide to Southampton unless they are planning on one hell of a headwind.

[EuroChallenger]

If you log on to the Companies House website, all limited companies' accounts are available for you to read for a nominal fee of £1 per down load.

[paarmo]

Just had a "flyer" through the door advertising MME winter programme.It still makes depressing reading but at least they are fighting back.
Fozzyflyer it is not just the same people on this thread.If you check the last 25 posts you will see 16 different contributers. If we all turned up at MME at once we would have a queue, something which dosen't happen very often.For your information the street names for the airport have already been decided.All are famous Teessiders, Brian Clough, James Cook , John Walker etc etc.

[andrewmcharlton]

Kerry Quinn Close ?

[aeulad]

Could it be on the J31?

Regards

Mike

[mmeteesside]

Yep it may only be a small step but its a step in the right direction at least :ok:

Appears to be the extension of the existing Leeds-Southampton service upto DTV and a chop in the frequency to 2 a day instead of the existing 3. I reckon this also marks the end for Eastern at Leeds, what with their Aberdeen flight operated from Aberdeen?

[Wellington Bomber]

You have got it!

MME - LBA - SOU

SOU - LBA -MME

twice a day

Leeds crews moving to Teesside along with engineers

[ReadyToGo]

As a regular Eastern passenger (NCL-SOU) this throws a real spanner in the works. I live closer to MME than NCL but NCL offers the direct service!

Not sure this format is ideal. Can't imagine many MME-LBA pax, and for anyone wanting to travel MME-SOU, with the stop, surely NCL is still an option. (looking at a map, the main population centres at, Sunderland. Boro, Durham are all within both catchment areas).

Its going to depend on timings I think. But as said elsewhere, its a step in the right direction! Anything from MME is good these days!

RTG!

[Wellington Bomber]

It is not going to drop off any pax in Leeds from Teesside or on the way back pick any up from Leeds

[SWBKCB]

Shame - would surely have been one of the UK's shortest scheduled services especially outside the Highlands and Islands.

Presumably as well as the additional pax out of MME (although you do wonder how many will just switch from LBA/NCL) is this as much about Eastern consolidating crewing/engineeering?

[flybar]

Presumably as well as the additional pax out of MME (although you do wonder how many will just switch from LBA/NCL) is this as much about Eastern consolidating crewing/engineeering?

Probably - also LBA/SOU is struggling against FLYBE so any extra passengers would also be a bonus.

[Leodis]

Running into the hills because there's too much competition in the valley.

[sunshine79]

Anyone know what's happening at MME at the moment? FR from ALC has been diverted to NCL and KL from AMS is holding overhead.

[Ringwayman]

Bit of fog - visibility was down to 200m about an hour ago but it's rising now as the latest METAR shows 1100m. Newcastle's been at 4500m for over an hour after being 1500m

[Jamesair]

The Eastern Airways thread has talk of an MME - Dublin route

[MME4eva]

Finally!! The airport are advertising for new routes...

www.therouteshop.com/durham-airport (http://www.therouteshop.com/durham-airport)

As an aside, why are so many KL1530 and then the morning KL1539s not operating, especially on Saturday nights? Are there no pax for these services or are the few pax there are bumped onto the NCL and LBA services?

[ALLMCC]

I see Belfast listed as one of the required routes. I remember Flybe (in their Jersey European days) used to operate this from BHD with a SD360. Route didn't last long due to a combination of daft timings and high fares. Think it could work for Eastern or the like but not Flybe as wouldn't be sufficient demand to justify a 78 seat Q400.

[airhumberside]

Finally!! The airport are advertising for new routes...
That has been there for a few months now

[mattfalcus]

bmibaby also operated MME - Belfast more recently.

[skyman771]

ReadyToGo :- Interesting post, & good luck to Eastern & their SOU service. It apperas to be quite a bespoke offering effective low volume business class only, though I fear the cost may be prohibitive to many. A typical day return panned out at about £188 against £60 ish from competition "up the road".
Its going to depend on timings I think. But as said elsewhere, its a step in the right direction! Anything from MME is good these days!
I hope there are many with your philosophy.
Puzzled though:confused: where in Northumberland is closer to DTV than NCL ?

[ReadyToGo]

in reply to Skyman!

thanks for pointing out the Northumberland bit. When I signed up for this forum, I was up that way and much closer to NCL. Since moved to County Durham, and so MME is closer. Just need to update that.

Eastern's ticket prices have always been surprisingly high. I understand their model and product is very different to that of Flybe, but I personally wouldn't justify the extra cost just for a free orange juice on the morning and a can of beer on the way home. Fortunately, I don't pick up the bill, and it seems that the company I work for has some agreement with T3, because I've never been put on a flybe!

I'm not sure how this route is going to compete with NCL. The timings from NCL are pretty good, the prices (I would imagine will be similar) and the flight is direct. THe NCL and MME catchment areas are also similar, and for Middlesbrough/Durham it might be better for people to travel to NCL for the direct service, rather than go to MME and have the stop in LBA.

Although saying that, typically how long would a Jetsream need on the ground? 10minutes perhaps? Presumably they wont need refuelling, or catering, so just a quick onload on the way down, and quick offload on the way back!

[speedrestriction]

Taxi in and shut down 5mins
Offload pax and bags 4mins
Walk around and Security checks 3-5mins
Embark pax and bags 5mins
Loadsheet and paperwork 2mins
Start and taxi to the hold 5mins

I make that around 25 minutes minimum everything going completely smoothly.

sr

[LBA]

Can do it in under 20 from on chocks to engine start depending on the pax load.

[CentreFix25]

...and I would assume Southbound nobody getting off at LBA, and Northbound nobody getting on at LBA. Got to applaud them for giving it a go, but we'll have to wait and see.

[ConstantFlyer]

Anyone remember the Dan Air Link City service? I think that used to go NCL-MME-MAN-BHX or CWL-BOH and had scheduled turnaround times of 10 mins. at intermediate stops. Operated by an HS-748, and later a Twin Otter. The Wideroe Dash 8s that bus-stop up in Northern Norway schedule a 15-minute turnaround. Eastern seems to schedule a 20-min. turnaround on the Saab 2000 and a 30-minute one on the J41 on the ABZ-LPL or NCL-SOU service. As there won't be any non-SOU pax on the MME-LBA & v.v sectors, they should manage a 10 or 15-minute layover, I'd imagine.

[davidjohnson6]

Advertising on RouteShop to say there's demand for North Africa seems a little ambitious, but I suppose if you don't try, you don't get !

[airhumberside]

Monastir, Sharm El Sheik. Nothing ambitious about those two. MME has had Monastir flights in the past

[apaul]

Tunisia and Egypt might not be ambitious, but there's next to no chance of it happening from MME. The airlines most likely to fly the route -Thomson, Thomas Cook and Jet2 - already have B757s based at NCL. They would not waste money by running any additional flights from MME rather than NCL. The Eastern route to Southampton might have more chance although it is indirect as Eastern might reduce flights from NCL to Southampton as a consequence of Flybe increasing its frequency to 4 flights a day.

[N Echo]

Excelsis Airlines NE flight plans in disarray as management team resigns (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/newsediting/4679281.Excelsis_Airlines_NE_flight_plans_in_disarray_as_man agement_team_resigns/)

[paarmo]

It's not really bad news. It would have been bad news if Teesside had signed agreements with Shirley's son. It would appear that as inept as they have shown themselves over the past 2 years , even they had serious reservations about an unknown Nigerian bearing important investment opportunities and have no visible means of support. The people I feel sorry for are the people who have applied in good faith for mythical jobs and laid themselves open to derision. That and the people who have supplied services to Excelsis.

[apaul]

The Southampton route will only work if enough people want to travel to that region on business or leisure and are willing to pay Eastern's fares. The notion from the airport spokesman reported uncritically in the northern Echo article that it is a sort of replacement for the Heathrow service is nonsense. Nobody is going to drive to Durham Team Valley, spend the best part of two hours flying via Leeds-Bradford to Southampton and then get the train to London. They will get the train from the north-east in the first place, or, if they want to get to Heathrow, they will fly from Newcastle.

[skyman771]

paarmo It's not really bad news.
At least we seem to agree on something ! My sympathy also goes to those that have suffered financially due to this fiasco. Perhaps if they had access to pprune they would have noted the concerns of many, myself included, who could not have treated the project with more contempt from day one if they had tried.
I do not have any insight as to how instrumental "or not" the team at DTV have been in the resolution of this matter. Incredible though it may seem there are those even more inept who in putting their names to this project, with considerable aviation industry experience, really should have done their homework:8.

[SWBKCB]

It's never dull at DTVA...


JournalLive - News - Today's News - Rail buffs to highlight Teesside Airport ‘ghost station’ (http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2009/10/14/rail-buffs-to-highlight-teesside-airport-ghost-station-61634-24924074/)

[paarmo]

I wonder if we can wangle these into the passenger figures. There must be a column somewhere.

[ReadyToGo]

On a serious note, does anyone think that this MME-LCY idea could actually work? (I mean the route, not the Excelsis thing)

Theres no direct competition from NCL, and I think LCY supports services to Dundee and Newquay, so why not the Northeast as well.

Sounds like a prime oppurtunity for someone like Eastern? I would say. MME-LCY-SOU sounds like a much more sensible option than the MME-LBA-SOU that they are opening up!

I'm sure its been considered, maybe even tried.


RTG!

[pug]

It could work i think, though i very much doubt Eastern would try it considering they pulled their NCL-LCY route due to high landing fees, i think it was that anyway..

Im surprised LGW hasnt been served.

Does anyone know how many of the BMI pax actualy had O/D's in London and how many were connecting onwards? That could be the deciding factor in gaining such a specialised service?

[andyafc]

Ryanair to luton could work if they gave it a go, what do people think?

[horsebox]

Any service into LCY would need to be on a 40+ seat aircraft due to the high landing charges. The J41 is too small and performance (restricted take off weight) too limiting to be viable at Lcy anymore. Keeping enough crew trained and current to operate into there is also an added expense.

The service to Southampton will be given a shortish period to sink or swim. Fingers crossed.

[johnnychips]

andy afc

Planes too big, probably quicker by train.

[paarmo]

Darlington to Kings Cross, 2 1/2 hrs something like 20 returns each day no check in times and no stripping. Carry your laptop on and use it wi fi. Reasonable advanced booking fares even First Class. MME is too close for flying but too far for driving but the train has driven the air journey out of sight .Not just for the foreseeable future but for ever I'm afraid.Security concerns when flying are really not worth the hassle for most commuters nowadays.

[ConstantFlyer]

Out of the several hundred people each day who travel by train from Darlington to London, I wonder what proportion then trogs across town by Tube to take another train from London Bridge/Waterloo/Victoria/Paddington etc. to places like Kent, Sussex, Essex, Hampshire and the West Country. Probably not enough to fill planes to the likes of Manston, Lydd, Gatwick, Heathrow, Southampton, Bournemouth or Bristol. However, if you add in those catching a flight overseas, then maybe. Heathrow is a non-starter, obviously. But surely Gatwick still has potential. bmi baby gave it a go, but one flight a day with a 737 wasn't right. The obvious candidate to me would be flybe with Q400s. Maybe flights to both Gatwick and Southampton.

Right, that's the pie-in-the-sky pensive bit over with. Now for the reality. What about people in London and the South wishing to travel to County Durham or the Tees Valley for business or leisure? Yes, there are some! I used to work in London and often travelled to towns and cities around England. I far prefer flying to the train, so always took the plane when I could. Huddersfield or Liverpool? (= fly to MAN then direct train). Durham? (= fly to NCL, then Metro and 10 minutes on the train). It is easy to connect to public transport, which is more important for inbound pax (most returning locals will be picked up by rellies, but inbound visitors will rely more on public transport). With one bus an hour from MME to Darlington, it barely rates as an option. Therefore, inbound visitors will instead fly to NCL or take the train all the way.

The free bus that One North East funded went empty most of the time, because there were no flights coming in most of the time. Then it was packed solid when one flight did come in. If they had been foresighted enough and flexible enough to provide a dedicated large enough bus just to meet each flight, then provision would have more closely matched demand. If they can do it at "Stockholm"-Skavsta, why not at MME?

[nclairportfan]

I now live in Sussex (near to Hastings) and by the time I drive to Gatwick (it's quicker than the train on that line), park, check in/loose luggage and get through security, fly to Newcastle, get luggage, get metro into city centre etc I have worked it that it all saves me 25 minutes as opposed to taking the train.

You also have to remember that employers are cutting budgets but at the same time becoming far more interested in the environment. In my organisation if I do fly then a £30 surcharge is put onto my budget to offset the carbon emissions and I understand we aren't the only large company to do this. Also, in terms of efficiency you can work the majority of the way on the train - employers are demanding far more of their employees at the moment and don't want to think that they are 'wasting time' when travelling.

You also need to consider that the vast majority of the country's business is done in central London - in which case the train will win everytime, especially from the NE.

What you need is a significant leisure market and those all important long haul transfers to make a MME - London air route work.

[MME4eva]

I think a LCY is possible but really there appears to be only VLM available to offer such a service, especially with the Air France KLM link and obvious onwards connections.

For the next 12 months, I feel DTV should be pushing out all the stops for the following;

JER 1 x weekly summer by FlyBE
BFS via IOM 2 x daily with Manx2.com (kills two bitds with one stone even with an NCL service)
DUB/ORK 1 or 2 x daily Aer Arann
LCY 2 x daily VLM

AGP/FAO/ALC/TFS/PMI summer timetable from one of the charters like TOM/TCX or even MON who could base a single 737 or A320. Obviously an EMB 190 sized aircraft would be better but I feel flyBE have committed to NCL/LBA for forseeable future even though they currently don't offer the med routes from these airports.

I cannot see anything more than the above being viable at MME but there should be no reason why the above services could not be successful.

[johnnychips]

Have you got them back next summer?

[apaul]

Yes, similar to last summer - Girona and Alicante.

[DTVAirport]

Good! Must mean the yields are what they should be?

[P330]

OK, not exactly riveting news but it looks like 2 out of the 3 daily flights to AMS will be on an F100 over winter.

From a booking I have in January; KL1530/9 & KL1533/4 move to F100. The second probably to take the extra capacity needed due to Newcastle losing this slot.

All short lived as bookings I have for April revert back to 3 x F70.

[DTVAirport]

Lot's of good little snippets coming to light recently - will there be more?

[mattfalcus]

I notice in the current Airports of the World it mentions Peel are selling 49% stake of Doncaster Sheffield. Wonder if they have similar plans for MME?

[pug]

I thought it was the whole airports group including LPL and MME that had a 49% stake up for sale?

[airhumberside]

Peel are looking for to sell 49% of their entire airports division

[SWBKCB]

One North East report on PSO for MME-LHR


One North East - News Article (http://www.onenortheast.co.uk/page/news/article.cfm?articleId=4073)

[skyman771]

Iteresting reading, but alas predictable. A lot of rhetoric, particularly suggesting that looking to regional MP's / Minister would have the slightest impact:ugh:
PSO vs. free market forces = free market:( MME/DTV - LHR R.I.P. :{

[davidjohnson6]

If the money has to support the PSO and buy the Heathrow slots has to come from the North East, then is it the best use of the North East's development budget ?
It's an awful lot of money to have to explain why flights from Newcastle aren't good enough as a proxy, and given the train connections to King's Cross, why MME deserves the connectivity into Heathrow rather than the larger metropolis of Leeds.

Get behind the campaign for a 3rd runway at Heathrow, and the additional slots available mean MME will have a decent chance of regaining flights to Heathrow again.

[paarmo]

Even if the 3rd runway was given the go ahead tomorrow it would take 6/10 years to plan build and open , far too long for MME if that is going to be the saviour. As it isn't going to happen at all it is not really relevant. Times and attitudes have changed and the MME London routes whichever you choose are no longer viable.

[adfly]

eastern are going to start a double daily service to southampton from 2nd november, any thoughts on whether it will do well?

[aeulad]

Get with the programme dear.

Regards

Mike

[highwideandugly]

Anyone know why one of 'our' military flights went through 'up the road' last night? Talking to a ops friend from catterick last night who confirmed a flight?
I thought we had the monopoly and is usually very good business?? Was it too late for the airport? I think they close around 10 at the moment.

Also I may have missed it but are the September figures out yet?

See KLM still on Fokker F70's when do they change to F100 ??

[tocamak]

See KLM still on Fokker F70's when do they change to F100

Plan is for Cityhopper to operate only five 100's but twenty-six 70's from winter onwards so probably see more of the 70's, certainly first two flights of the day up to 20th December.

[MME4eva]

With the announcement of Gordan Strachan as manager of MFC, this should secure atleast one or two seats regularly on the Eastern service as he lives down in Hampshire!

I see DTVA website news stating London bound passengers could use the new SOU service..think this is slightly clutching at straws!!

[HH6702]

From December 2010 train times into london kings cross will also be cut.

From december most trains from darlington to london will call at york and then none stop until london cutting approx 10-15 mins off travel times.

Travel times from scotland will also be cut to around 4 hrs instead of nearly 5 hrs. i expect to see in the next few years less flights from scotland to london as the trains will be more appealing.

hope im wrong but i dont think DVT will get another london service.

[OMGitsDAVE]

I hope you all realise that the Dec 2009 & 2010 timetables are not completed.

So far, there are going to be NO GLASGOW CENTRAL services coming down the east coast, instead all National Express services will come from Edinburgh/Aberdeen (1x Daily)/Inverness. This means that Darlington will see less trains, along with all stations on the east coast as they are operating more frequently to Leeds and other services operate Non-stop between York & Newcastle heading for Edinburgh.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...ble-161009.pdf

Grand Central aught to see a few more passengers, lets just say that.

[Alvechurch]

Highwideandugly

September 30816 -55.7%

Rolling 12 months 353003 -48.3%

[MME4eva]

How long does the FR ALC route go on for?

As for the summer season, already we have the following confirmed;

-ALC/GRO Ryanair x 3
-Dalaman/Bodrum Onur Air x 1?
-PMI Thomson Airways x 1
-Bourgas Balkan Holidays x 1

With the following scheduled hopefully 90 % guaranteed;
-AMS x 3 KLM
-ABZ x 4 Eastern
-SOU (fingers x!) x 2 Eastern

Any chance of TCX/BD doing any more services like this summer?

Surely, we can also get a 1 x weekly JER with BE too?

[DTVAirport]

Thomas Cook dropped us a couple of months ago I think.

Monarch seem to lack presence in the North East, do they still have a charter branch or are they more scheduled nowadays? Either way, might be worth management pursuing them?

[andrewmcharlton]

I would imagine most charter operators bases are pretty set now for the next 12 months as they wont introduce flights from MME if they haven't been selling them as part of their packages.

[CentreFix25]

The words Clutching and Straws come to mind.