DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5

[Hipennine]

Well said Shed.

And I would add that the said government has refused grant applications to Peel wrt to MME (with good reason IMHO), so they don't just hand money over to them whatever.

Fact: Peel bought the airport from the councils in a business deal that the council's did not have to accept, but they did.

Fact: Peel are therefore entitled to do what they want (within the law) with the airport.

Fact: Peel are under no obligation to declare their real strategy for the airport to anybody.

If you have nay problems with the above, address them to the councils and the government.

[SWBKCB]

Again, well said Shed. I think in some of the American states it is actually illegal for a company to pay more tax than they are obliged to, as it's regarded as stealing from the shareholders...

And DTVA has been rejected for TWO Regional Growth Fund applications (probably all part of some cunning plan!)

[Northbound A1]

Report into Peel.
PEEL HOLDINGS BEAST EXPOSED IN SALFORD AND LIVERPOOL - Salford Star - with attitude & love xxx (http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=1761)

"And in a devastating conclusion on Peel's `corporate mentality' the report lists the following traits…

* An indifference to public opinion and a tokenistic approach to public consultation and due democratic process

* Contempt for local government

* A preparedness to enter into any potentially lucrative sector, regardless of experience

* A cavalier attitude to 'soft' (ie: non-commercial) concerns such as public and environmental health

* A similarly cavalier approach to local need and preference

* A readiness to exploit legal loopholes

* A dogged determination, in the face of opposition, to 'win'

* Corporate 'combativeness' – Peel is prepared to fight its corner in the highest courts

* A preparedness to abandon 'sinking ship' projects if and when these prove to be unprofitable

In the Preface to the ExUrbe report, the chair of its Trustees, Peter Kilfoyle writes of Peel…

"That dominance - with no real democratic accountability – makes it necessary to throw a light on the practices, finances and record of Peel. Only with a transparent account of the organisation is it possible to properly assess and judge the nature of the beast to which the Liverpool City Region is now harnessed."

[davidjohnson6]

Northbound - so you're saying that Peel acts to maximise returns to shareholders and considers itself bound only by laws passed by Parliament and legal contract.

Isn't that what companies are meant to do anyway ?

Companies are not democracies at the whim of residents of a local area, and never have been

[P330]

Beafboud/Norther,

(Sorry...your post morph into one).

I haven't seen any post that "supports" Peel. Merely the recent posts state the facts in a sensible, pragmatic way. Your posts are simply copy and pastes of your all your recent moans.

I certainly don't support Peel; under their tenure the airport has gone into decline, and likely a permanent one - despite the effort of the well intended local management.

If you had a business, what would you do? Mine would be to find a way of maximising returns for the owners. Isn't that what Peel are doing? Do I like it? No. Because it is clear that they will get greater returns from non-commercial aviation which is where I would like it to be.

I would be more critical of Peel if MME was isolated around the UK as the only "sub regional airport" that isn't doing well. Look at Manston. Even the regionals in the big cities have struggled for growth. Look at the airlines - many have consolidated or gone under. Look at the economy. Look at the local economy. Look at the global economy. Look at fuel prices when DTVA was at its peak. Look at fuel prices now. Look at ticket prices in 2005. Look at them now.

The world has changed - get over it. I wish it were different - but it isn't. And hitting copy/paste on a keyboard doesn't change that.

Is there still a market for traffic? Could Thomsons have been retained? Undoubtedly...yes. But is it sustainable in the current climate so that the owners can deliver their returns....well clearly Peel think 'no'.

Their PR has been appauling and the owners probably have no interest in running the airport....I give you that.

But that is business. That is the state of regional airports. That is the state of the airline industry. That is the state of our economy.

Move on...

Or better still....cobble some money together, buy it off them, use your knowledge of the industry and business to turn it into a success. If you can't cobble the cash together with some fellow villagers; apply for a job there....turn it around as you appear to have the answers. Or, if that doesn't appeal...given your expertise and need to speak to the relevant people; get in with FODTVA and express your opinions directly....why wouldn't they listen if you're right?

Alternatively, you could keep hitting copy and paste on a keyboard....

[cumbrianboy]

Fact: MME handled around 900k how ever many years ago.

Fact: This passenger volume (and the volume lost) came almost entirely from the bmi group.


Are all of you moaners seriously holding Peel responsible for the demise of bmi and bmibaby?

The sad reality is, and this may be difficult for some to stomach, is that the decline at MME is not Peel's fault. When the bmi group left, seriously who was going to replace them? No one, at least not on the same scale and deliver 700k passengers a year.

Add into this MME probably sits in the most deprived and economically repressed part of the UK and really from an airlines point, it's just not attractive. All these people who moan they can't fly to Palma anymore. I get it, it's annoying and to the public a bit bemusing. But the fact is they only want to fly to Palma if they can get the flight for £100, it's just not profitable for an airline to do that. Charge them £200 and they go back to NCL.

Is any of this Peel's fault or within their control? No.

Have they invested money? Yes, and they continue to do so. The airport looses millions of pounds a year, who pays for that? Peel. Who keeps the staff employed? Peel …

Would another owner have done things differently? Exactly what could they have done when the bmi group went bust? And do people really think Peel haven't been talking to airlines about growth … ?

I can see why they asked Thomson to leave, anyone can look and see to staff up (security, handling, fire etc) for 1 737 a week is going to cost more than you can hope to make back in revenue so why do it, no real likely hood of growth so ...

Personally, I see a future for MME, but not as it once was, that's sad for times gone by, but times change.

[fa2fi]

What he said ^

[INeedTheFull90]

Oh the irony. The governments of the last decade did what they could to appease the Eco-warriors by destroying domestic flying within the UK. Not this regional fund is in place to potentially reinstate routes that now need subsidies in order to run. If the government hadn't destroyed the UK domestic and short haul business we wouldn't need this and arguable MME wouldn't be the ghost town that it is today.

[NorthSouth]

appease the Eco-warriors by destroying domestic flying within the UKEh? There's still way more domestic schedules now than, say, 20 years ago. Just because DTVA lost its London link doesn't mean all domestic routes have gone. The market's changed. It used to be "all routes lead to London". Now it's lots more point to point, plus lots more international pax from the regions choosing to go via Schiphol in particular because it's just so more pleasant an experience than going via London.

[highwideandugly]

Amazing page...many points raised are wrong...longest runway etc.

Me thinks jean needs to do some home work before starting petitions!:ugh:

[INeedTheFull90]

Domestic travel absolutely fell after the introduction of APD and I'd put money on saying it had slowed growth drastically. Remember Ryanair's ten a day PIK-STN service? APD contributed significantly to the demise of the the route. EZY NCL-STN, gone. Biggest regional airline operating domestic flights throughout the UK - on the brink. If you think that APD has not damaged the UK domestic network then you're deluded.

[Northbound A1]

News for DTV.
Aero Centre trademark application.
Peel must have plans to turn DTV into an airport???

United Kingdom Intellectual Property Office Publishes Application for Trademark "Aero Centre" to Durham Tees Valley Airport for Various Services - Avionics Intelligence (http://www.avionics-intelligence.com/news/2014/04/12/united-kingdom-intellectual-property-office-publishes-application-for-trademark-aero-centre-to-durha.html)

United Kingdom Intellectual Property Office Publishes Application for Trademark "Aero Centre" to Durham Tees Valley Airport for Various Services
2014-04-12
South Wales, April 12 -- Durham Tees Valley Airport Ltd., Manchester, has filed the trademark "Aero Centre" on March 12, for various services.

I would have thought it applied to a few airports or are Peel planning to charge the businesses for the use of the Aero Centre name?

[SWBKCB]

Full list of services quoted on the trade mark application - don't think there's much new we weren't aware of but which if these covers the operation of airline passenger services?

List of services

Class 36
Real estate management; leasing of real estate; property rental services; rental and leasing of commercial premises, retail outlets, shops and offices; financial services relating to purchase of aircraft; financial services relating to leasing of aircraft; insurance services; information and advisory and consultancy services relating to all of the foregoing.

Class 37
Aircraft maintenance; aircraft repair; fuelling services for aircraft; inner and outer cleaning of aircraft; inspection of aircraft prior to maintenance; electrical engineering contractor services; civil engineering construction services; information and advisory and consultancy services relating to all of the foregoing.

Class 39
Aircraft ground services; aircraft runway services; aircraft parking; aircraft apron services; aircraft trucking; aircraft handling; cargo handling; ground traffic control services; air traffic control services; car parking; freight transport; information and advisory and consultancy services relating to all of the foregoing.

[skyman771]

"UNDER THE RADAR"
List of services
Class 36
Real estate management; leasing of real estate; property rental services; rental and leasing of commercial premises, retail outlets, shops and offices;
Now if you take the above in isolation, which it could be!, then as I see it you have all you need to go about "business as usual", which is indeed all that Peel are interested in? :E

[sealink]

I used to work for Midland and covered overtime a MME back in 1996-2000. The BD LHRs were full. So where have all the passengers gone? How do they get to London and beyond now? If an airline could make it work then could someone make it work now. Even an early departure and an evening departure.

[SWBKCB]

So where have all the passengers gone?

1. On the improved train service,
2. via AMS,
3. to MAN, LBA and NCL

Presumably BD didn't stop because they were making so much money they couldn't carry it to the bank.

If nobody picked up the route then, it's unlikely that its going to work now the world has moved on.

[Northbound A1]

Tokenhouse are Peels parent company. Whitty owns 73%.
It looks like the boss is moving shares around. Millions of shares.
And they say there is no money around :roll eyes:

How much did he invest in DTV in the end? £100 or a little bit more ;)

FE Investegate |Intu Properties Plc Announcements | Intu Properties Plc: Director/PDMR Shareholding (http://www.investegate.co.uk/intu-properties-plc--intu-/prn/director-pdmr-shareholding/20140407170357P24EF/)

[Northbound A1]

Blueprint.

Airport publishes blueprint for long-term survival (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/11157173.Airport_publishes_blueprint_for_long_term_survival/?ref=var_0)

[skyman771]

It's all petty accademic, Midland operated in another age.
No capacity at LHR, slots too valuable to obtain the necessary return on low yield domestic ops. The outcome was inevitable.
Specific answer as per "SWBKCB".
There is unfortunately one other fact & that is that the pax's demand no longer exists at earlier level due predominantly to decline in the regional ecconomy.
It is perhaps from this background that MME (as it was) troubles began:{ Though I have to point out that the then :mad:Numbties that were put in charge achieved very little other than pave the way for the Peel circus.

[Northbound A1]

Local tyne tees tv news have just had a story on about NCL airport and the fact that 50,000 pax will be going through it this weekend.

It also said that the airport has just completed a £14 million redevelopment of the departure lounge.
Thats nearly the same amount Peel promised to spend on all of the airport at DTV ten years ago, but didn't.

If they can do it why won't Peel do this just down the road? The pax are obviously wanting to fly.
I wouldn't be surprised if half of those 50,000 pax came from the Teesside area and had to drive 50 miles up the road. :ugh:
50,000 people to fly out of Newcastle Airport over Easter | Tyne Tees - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/update/2014-04-17/50-000-to-fly-out-of-newcastle-airport-over-easter/)

[Robert-Ryan]

Just had a quick glance over the finalised master plan, the only thing of note seems to be TNT have been removed.

Anyone know why we're getting lots of Saabs on the Aberdeen route lately? Eastern short of Jetstreams or have we been upgraded?

[Hipennine]

"If they can do it why won't Peel do this just down the road? The pax are obviously wanting to fly.
I wouldn't be surprised if half of those 50,000 pax came from the Teesside area and had to drive 50 miles up the road. :ugh:
50,000 people to fly out of Newcastle Airport over Easter | Tyne Tees - ITV News" (http://apicdn.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fairlines-airports-routes%2F383785-durham-tees-valley-airport-5-a-90.html&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.itv.com%2Fnews%2Ftyne-tees%2Fupdate%2F2014-04-17%2F50-000-to-fly-out-of-newcastle-airport-over-easter%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fairlines-airports-routes-85%2F)

Err, population Teesside circa 376k.

Population T&W - circa 1.1m, Northumberland (mostly just n of T&W) circa 311k, County Durham (mostly just s of T&W) circa 513k, makes circa 1.924m.

I think your estimate may be a little out, or are you seriously suggesting that the inghabitants of Teesside are 6 times more likely to have flown this weekend than the rest of the region ?

[SWBKCB]

Hipennine - don't let facts get in the way of a good rant...

Also from the NIA press release

The first phase of the development is now complete, with The Beer House, Flying Hippo, and Aspire Lounge open for passengers from April 2014. The next major phase will begin in autumn 2014, with most work expected to be completed by May 2015.

so not yet completed

Alongside our business partners, we’re investing a total of £14 million to ensure customers have the best possible journey through the airport.

not just the airport's investment, but retailers etc

If they can do it why won't Peel do this just down the road? The pax are obviously wanting to fly.

The old "build it and they will come" approach? NCL can do it because they have a solid business stream to base the investment upon - for DTVA it would be a speculative investment in the hope (and contrary to previous experience) that it could attract additional business (and more likely chucking good money after bad)

[Lancelot37]

Is NCL strill £380,000,000 in the red or have they increased or decreased the debt?

[N707ZS]

Lancelot, presume you are not brave enough to post your request on the Newcastle thread.


I see there has been no answer to the TNT question.

[SWBKCB]

The debt was reduced to £178m when Copenhagen sold to AMP - anyway, many business have debt and if borrowings are being used to expand the business and increase income and profit, and so long as you can afford to repay it shouldn't be a problem.

I've added details on the Newcastle thread.

[NorthSouth]

I don't think they fly cargo into DTV at all nowNext to nothing since 2009. From CAA stats, annual volume of cargo at DTVA:
2009 298 tonnes
2010 none
2011 3 tonnes
2012 none
2013 none

[Lancelot37]

Wasn't there a TNT flight in and out in the last month, I doubt that they stopped off for a coffeee.

[SWBKCB]

MOD charter - pax not freight.

[deltahotel9]

A bit of a stuck record, just more of the same "put on the flights and the passengers will come" and "we don't even have a flight to London" I hate to say it guys but you're fighting a lost cause with this one.

[P330]

Did anyone see the Kevin Mcleod documentary on C4 last night?

It was all about upcycling old aeroplanes and making new and useful products out of components which would oridinarily have gone to landfil.

The relevance to this thread is that the documentary was set at MME with the aircraft used being one of the AF A320s which came into Sycamore. Interesting stuff and worth a watch on 4OD if you haven't seen it.

Also of note was how the show was introduced as "welcome to Teesside Airport....." :)

[P330]

Hearing on the grapevine that KLM may be sending their historic DC3 to MME in June to run a pleasure flight as part of KLM's birthday celebrations....

[N707ZS]

This year is also a big birthday year for Teesside 50 years.

[N707ZS]

Sycamore, interesting bit, scrap metal value approximately £25.000 produce sold to date £27.000, were those lamps really £700 each?

[NorthSouth]

P330:KLM may be sending their historic DC3 to MME in JuneNot showing on the schedule on the DDA website - only UK trip is to Luton for the Duxford display in June. Do you have any more details? I'd come to MME for this.
NS

[P330]

The date I have heard is the 26th June but I guess we need to wait for an official announcement.

[Northbound A1]

Sycamore scrapping inside Hangar 1.
Civilian Aviation ? Home to the Civil Aviation Enthusiast ? View topic - Sycamore Aviation Teeside Airport - UT air ATR 42'S (http://www.civilianaviation.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18197)

While on a KLM flight recently the attendants were chatting about a passenger who had written a review about his KLM DTV experience.
FLIGHT REVIEW; KLM FROM DURHAM TEES VALLEY TO COLOGNE « travelswithanthony (http://travelswithanthony.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/flight-review-klm-from-durham-tees-valley-to-cologne/)

Piece of the DTV KLM review;
Though overall a relatively short journey, this one could so easily have gone wrong. Flying from Durham Tees Valley to Cologne via Amsterdam Schipol, allowed me only forty minutes’ transit between the two flights. And yes, I was a bit concerned about my luggage.

It’s incredibly sad to watch the continual downward spiral of Durham Tees Valley, a spiffy little airport that deserves so much better. It has sensational ease of access, and is truly human in scale. I arrived at four in the morning and, for a long time, my only company was the tumbleweed flitting through the lounge. And, while check in and processing was friendly and efficient, I was still charged the infamous, £6 fee to depart from the airport-something I’ve never encountered anywhere before. Really? I mean, I know Middlesbrough is no photogenic beauty, but charging people to leave it is not an ultimate winner, guys.

The flights; both of these were on the seventy seat, Fokker 70 planes that KLM use on their city hopper routes. At DTV, we simply walked out onto the tarmac and up the short, retractable flight of steps. It really was as easy as that.

[P330]

A minor update on the DC3. Still looking like Thursday 26th June; further details to follow. The flight or flights are being billed as "scenic" but not sure whether they will be publicly available, invite only or a combination of the two. It would appear that some of the seats will be via official invite from KLM.

[DTVAirport]

After some hard campaigning by the airport, FoDTVA and other interested parties, we're going to get "at least" a fly-past from the Canadian "Mynarski" Avro Lancaster that is due to visit the UK in August! :ok:

[borissirob]

Sycamore scrapping inside Hangar 1.
Civilian Aviation ? Home to the Civil Aviation Enthusiast ? View topic - Sycamore Aviation Teeside Airport - UT air ATR 42'S (http://www.civilianaviation.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18197)


Thanks Northbound.
It was an fascinating day out looking round Sycamore

[SWBKCB]

Teesside Airport railway station keeps title as UK's least used with eight passengers in a year - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-airport-railway-station-keeps-7100341)

[Beafer]

The DTVA director Clr Budd has announced that he is standing as the Labour's candidate in the Mayor elections in Middlesbrough. £80k a year plus expenses.
He's been on the DTV board for years.
Dave Budd is Labour candidate for Middlesbrough mayoral election - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/dave-budd-labour-candidate-middlesbrough-7104647)

[racedo]

Long as Cllr Budd is not waiting for all those train passengers to vote for him then he has a chance.

[Northbound A1]

Teesside Airport Facebook page. What the public think of the current situation.
https://www.facebook.com/evening.gazette/posts/493698297396915

[GrahamK]

Completely clueless most of them :ugh:

[N707ZS]

I see most of them faceache in the middle of the night.

[highwideandugly]

Interesting conversation with a normally reliable source this weekend.

No details as such but an announcement is expected in June regarding new flights!

Is this a change of tact by peel ,have they seen the light maybe? Or something else..answers on a postcard please!

Passed through the terminal on Saturday..oh dear..the only activity was a couple of guys painting the zebra crossings!:ugh:

[SWBKCB]

No details as such but an announcement is expected in June regarding new flights! Is this a change of tact by peel, have they seen the light maybe?

Depends what it is - something similar to the LinksAir operation at DSA would fit in with the Masterplan, a based unit flying to sun and sand destinations wouldn't!

[Nakata77]

Could it be Flybe to LCY double daily?

[DTVAirport]

Not a change of tactics no, Peel have always been looking for more flights, just the right kind of flights. I did hear something a couple of months ago about a new route, won't elaborate just yet just in case though.

[Skipness One Echo]

Can the true believers explain to us confused people what are "right" and "wrong" kinds of flights. I mean it's unusual to turn business away but perhaps Teesside are indeed trail blazing?

#nextaftermanstonsurely

[SWBKCB]

I would imagine the "right" ones are ones you make money one and the "wrong" ones are those you don't

Although it hasn't been explained in detail, DTVA seems to be working on the basis that the split is somewhere between 100-150 pax

The Masterplan says they are looking for Domestic/near continent business orientated flights (or something like that!)

#tactless

[DTVAirport]

It's already been explained both here and elsewhere, I'm not going to go over old ground

[Skipness One Echo]

Although it hasn't been explained in detail, DTVA seems to be working on the basis that the split is somewhere between 100-150 pax
I am genuniely baffled as to how given they cannot right size their business to a place outwith a particularly niche size of aeroplane, that there can be any hope. "No sorry, your B737-800 has too many passengers, Newcastle is that way!" I mean it's not as if there's a queue beating down their door. This is utter nonsense on stilts which is depressing, the amount of people willing to buy into this ****, even more so.

Basic management requires you to have the facilities to serve the market you strive to operate in. This codswallop about going after a subsection of the market against NCL, MAN, LBA et al and ignoring anything outside that wee niche is unprecedented.

[TSR2]

The latest idea is to 'Twin' the airport with another airport in order to generate regular traffic between the two. Unfortunately DTV have chosen Manston :ok:


Only joking.

[onyxcrowle]

Perhaps if Dtva got a London service again it might just reverse the fortunes of it.
Now that the sort of carriers that would get slots (Flybe into Lcy).
Or Perhaps links air could do (for example Dtv to Sen).
Then being smaller aircraft (to silence the negative comments about jets flying half empty).
Then there is no reason why it couldn't work.
But my question is , if it happens and did work ,
What then would the operator do if presented with an offer of new routes from say (for example)
Jet2 saying ok we see a market here and we'll run Flights to Amsterdam ,Prague . Barcelona and also we'd like to run to Malaga and Alicante ?.
Would they turn it away because Jet2 (just an example not me saying they would . Before I get trolled abused or shot down etc as seems to be the way this thread is run).
Or would they go back on their business only use.
I mean I don't see how they can grow it into anything beyond 10 routes without adding in holiday traffic.
Or can they start attracting domestic city to city feeder services .
Peel in theory could just as well buy a small fleet of Prop eg J41 Atr 42 or Even an Emb170 and a few coaches.
Then setup flying to other UK airports perhaps underused ones.
Eg Dtv - Dundee - bus to Edinburgh
Eg Dtv - Sen - Get an arrangement with the train operators for a code share type fair into central London
One that Probably would do Well would be a direct flight from Dtv to.Sumburgh cutting out having to go via Aberdeen.
The E170 could easily cope with Sumburgh and ought to be compatible as a service for the oil n gas industry.
Ditto the Faroe.
Sorry for the long post but ive noticed there never seems to be anything on this thread about the airport beyond constant Anti peel rhetoric politics. And negativity.
Has anyone stopped to think that in some small way this much hysteria over half the thread could be damaging the chances for the airport?

[mikkie4]

LIKE THE IDEA OF DVT-SEN

[onyxcrowle]

Really ? :).Is that a genuine comment or a dig.
Just all I seem.to find on here is unpleasant constant negative and as some ignorant unpleasant individual made a totally unnecessary comment after I'd floated an idea about where we should have a UK hub airport.
With the South East so crowded and Heathrow unable to expand properly I suggested expanding Ema and making it the UK hub.
HS2 goes right underneath it. With a station built there on HS2 it's about 40 mins to.Central London.
Not much worse than current Heathrow links and unlike Heathrow it's nearer for more of the population.
Lots of land around etc for the expansion.
And it's by the M1 n nr The M1.
For that I got the response of is this a wind up.
Yet folk discuss Heathrow version 2 just about anywhere out in the Thames . Up in Oxford.
Anyway rant over.
As a note the the mods can't you ask folk to get back on topic about the airport.
I try to respect the forum. But this thread now is almost painful to read as its just a constant stream of political stuff some questionable statements about people at peel. But nothing about how as a community they could support the airport or petition peel to do something about it.
This thread apart from the last few posts since the poster mentioned there may be new flights in June , has for too long Not been about what should be discussed here.
Please can I start a New DTV thread .
Kind regards
Jonathan

[davidjohnson6]

Would a DTV-SEN route be aiming at people travelling to/from London or to/from Essex ?
If aimed at people travelling to/from London, how would you persuade customers that it can provide a better service than a train between King's Cross and Darlington, given the high speed and frequency of the train service ? Also need to think about the direct Eaglescliffe-King's Cross train service as well as a competitor
If aimed at people travelling to/from Essex, why would an airline set up DTV-SEN when a route like Edinburgh-Southend seems a safer option ?

Peel seem to have decided they don't want 150+ seat aircraft at DTV. Therefore any DTV-SEN route would likely have to be using something with no more than 70 or 100 seats. Fewer seats means you have to charge higher fares to cover the cost of operating the flight. How do you persuade enough high-spending customers to fly DTV-SEN instead of just low-spending students / backpackers ?

Not saying it can't work - just that there are a lot of questions about such a theoretical route which might need to be carefully answered before it comes to reality.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I am getting quite a few complaints about DTV being written about without the FACTS to support pithy 'findings.' The more written about DTV the more unfounded the views of so-called experts become.


What is apparent is that some are posting, then have a re-think, then delete what they have written. I can SEE each deleted post, there are plenty of them, and I can also see that a lot is just repeated twaddle. No facts to back them up. That is the work of trolls and/or mischief makers.


The whole thread is driven by some who THINK they know what they are talking about while others suddenly realise that they have made fools of themselves. Others DO know what they talk about and should be listened to.


So, let me make it clear. I am not about to be an auntie to anyone or all who do not take part in a debate, lose all sense of direction and mess up the thread as in this case. For me it is simple. I close the thread and you, whoever you are, comply with the rules of PPRuNe, you signed up to them when you joined, and put sensible meaning to your posts. Don't guess. Don't print facts that are NOT facts and DO NOT write rubbish just for the sake of it. I will delete any posts that deviate from the topic or do not make sense. Couldn't be clearer wouldn't you say?


This thread is now closed. Someone can start another with the same title but with a 6 after it.


Also, I will ban anyone from the thread who does not follow the rules.


PPP