DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5

[andrewmcharlton]

Just for the sake of being a pedant and devil's advocate and injecting some long overdue reality here....

Before I start I couldn't care less about Peel nor do I have any vested interest, I just think this forum is swamped by dreamers and hopers and that good old "never say die" bunch of "fans" and is based purely on hope than realism for many. According to Wikipedia, reliability I cannot guarantee:

The airport has been going for 38 years before Peel were selected, not quite the 50 claimed.

Peel presided over continued growth for some period, up to the airport's record operations level.

To the best of my knowledge they (Peel) didn't cause the global recession which caused many of the community who might have used the airport to be unable to due to economic reasons.

Whether or not Peel are rich is irrelevant. They're a commercial operation not a charity and if it isn't making money and in their opinion (it's their cash so it's up to them remember) isn't likely to, then they won't invest further monies.

I think it can be easy to subscribe to the argument about MME being in the shadow of NCL and to a lesser extent, LBA. Let's just forget about them for the minute and instead believe that the people of Teesside deserve to use and benefit from the facility of the international airport that is on our doorstep.

You can't ignore the elephant in the room. Two major competitors are on the doorstep and whether or not the good folk of Teesside deserve a facility is a moot point. They have a dwindling second class over-priced airport.

What I'm most curious about is the accountability of Peel to the local people.

They're not. Only to shareholders so to some extent the local authorities but effectively not to the populace at large.

surely there are opportunities to attract cargo airlines such as DHL who appear to be running at capacity at EMA

Not a snowballs chance. Have you any idea of the level of investment in the infrastructure in and around EMA that DHL have made? Check out Undercover Boss from a few weeks ago to see. Apart from being less than strategically located it's never going to happen.

Peel could compete for airlines such as Thomson or Thomas Cook for holiday flights to proven destinations like Palma, Alicante, Tenerife and Gran Canaria

They could, yes, even should. But on a dwindling market why would they when they can get better yields elsewhere? Apart from last year, package holidays have been declining year on year since the 70's.

Is there a chance of having the Heathrow link reinstated with an airline like Virgin's Little Red.

No, absolutely none.

You may now proceed to shoot me down in flames and tell me how I should bugger off back to somewhere else etc etc ad nauseum.....

[andrewmcharlton]

That didn't take you long...and the old conspiracy theory again.

Nothing to do with the industry or any of it's players whatsoever, used to be a frequent user in fact but don't let that get in the way of a good story.

Out of interest, why should they give it back for free or even your suggested price? Apart from your perceived moral obligations that is? Why don't you do an FOI request and get a copy of the deal?

[marcrh1986]

It's an interesting response, thank you for the detail.

Look, for any proposition there'll be people who take different points of view with differing optimism and pessimism.

Just to make it clear, my point about forgetting about NCL and LBA is this: They both serve city areas which due to their economies will of course provide more demand and this is reflected in their destinations and route frequencies. And quite rightly so.

I'm arguing for a level of service from MME which will help boost the area economically as well as providing a service to the people of Teesside and the wider region. I note andrewmcharlton resides in Newcastle so I wouldn't expect him to consider the facility the airport could provide to people in the Teesside area as a priority. But in my opinion, the "second rate" airport you mention is therefore having a detrimental effect on how people within and maybe outside of the north east view the economical potential of the area: and that's unacceptable and a cause for change. If the airport closes, how negative would the effect of that be on the area's economy?

Of course I have every idea of the level of investment that DHL have invested in EMA, but in order for MME to succeed there surely needs to be a fighting spirit and an innovative outlook to win new business. This is perhaps what people expect and are calling for on this forum, which whether it's the place to do it or not, shows the sentiment nonetheless.

It's probably the case that Peel just aren't good at running airports. Apart from LPL, the success of which is probably driven by easyJet and Ryanair, the state of Doncaster, DTVA and Sheffield City before them, do not provide a good track record. MME cannot afford to have half-bothered management and by re-commiting themselves to the airport when a buyer could not be found, Peel now need to step up and start delivering.

[SWBKCB]

but the pax numbers started to decline with operators jumping ship.

Finally - it's the people of Teesside who haven't shown commitment to the airport. For Peel, the airport is an investment - they have no moral obligation or commitment other than to their shareholders.

I haven't seen any feedback from the Labour councillors who are also DTV directors for an explanation on how the Diltion Notice occured and why they didnt fight the notice?

Feedback to what? An anonymous internet forum?

Apart from LPL, the success of which is probably driven by easyJet and Ryanair

Okey-dokey - so the success of LPL is down to RYR/EZY, but the failure of MME is down to Peel?

[marcrh1986]

It's not an illogical argument. LPL is successful because they have a driving force behind them (Ryanair/easyJet) and MME is lacking in success because they are also lacking a driving force (absence of such an airline). Peel is the common denominator in both, if you want to attribute failure to Peel then by all means go ahead. The point I'm making is that you've got airports such as Blackpool, Humberside and Exeter which all historically had lower patronage than MME before the recession and appear to be faring well with somewhat decent services in areas where you might describe as being dominated by larger airports. Is the reason for this because of strong leadership and a clear vision to compete and provide a service?

I'd be careful when saying the people of Teesside didn't show commitment to the airport. If any business loses custom, it's unlikely to be a wise move to blame the customers? If it's supposed to be a commercial operation, then they need to provide a level of service from the airport. The renaming was a major PR blunder gauging from the ever-lasting discourse in the local media and any investment in terms of facilities isn't entirely obvious to me. Having last used the airport in April, it didn't appear in any better condition than it was when I first flew from there over 10 years ago. But let's stop looking at the past and think about the future.

The question is... what's next? The attitude that somehow MME doesn't matter is prevelant on this forum but perhaps it is for the people from the area who require business and leisure services to decide. The people who would benefit from real investment in the place are the ones to whom any airport owners should be accountable, as the primary customers and benefactors of the facility.

[onion]

SWBKCB 'Finally - it's the people of Teesside who haven't shown commitment to the airport.'

This shows how far out of the loop you are! Facts are that people used the airport when the operators were there providing services they wanted.
bmi messed the schedules around on the LHR so people wouldn't want to use the service and then when numbers dropped they cut the route!
People were using the bmibaby flights and they also used the Flyglobespan services. Holiday flights always have high load factors too.

In aviation you need the service provider to provide what the customer wants, if they don't provide the service the public can't use it!

If airlines put the service on with a sensible schedule then people will use the airport. Facts are only a few years ago almost 1 million were using the airport. I'm not saying that the airport will be back to that level overnight but people who were using the airport didn't just overnight decide not to use the place!
Finally it's not just people from Teesside who use the airport. I'm from North Yorkshire, certainly not Teesside!

[SWBKCB]

Onion - Exactly, the services need to be there before the public can use them. When the services where there 900,000 passengers used DTV in 2005.

The services were there, so what happened?

bmi messed the schedules around on the LHR so people wouldn't want to use the service and then when numbers dropped they cut the route!

or alternatively bmi saw how much they were making out of MME :eek: and used their slots for something making more money

People were using the bmibaby flights and they also used the Flyglobespan services.

bmibaby moved their aircraft out to somewhere else where they thought they could make more money. Flyglobespan came in and went bust - nobody else has moved into pick up the pieces

Holiday flights always have high load factors too.

So where are they? Maybe we need to ask Thomson's/Ryanair

If airlines put the service on with a sensible schedule then people will use the airport. Facts are only a few years ago almost 1 million were using the airport.

Facts are that people will use the airport but not at a price or in the numbers that anybody can make any money.

And in the meantime both LBA and NCL have expanded and filled the vacuum.

Or is it all somebody elses fault?

[DTVAirport]

In response to andrewmcharlton's second last post, the global recession is not responsible for DTVA losing over two thirds of it's business as the bulk of said business had gone prior to this, the economy merely provided Peel with a convenient excuse and has since prevented a recovery of sorts for DTVA.

Also, whereas yes it's unlikely, should Virgin Atlantic Little Red decide to expand, DTVA should be in with just as much chance as anywhere else, the only thing that might give Newcastle an advantage is Virgin are likely to want to take on the competition (BA) at the source (NCL) rather from the neighbours, but DTVA could easily snatch the business from Newcastle if they really tried / wanted too.

That's probably looking a little too far ahead at the moment though (still, better than dwelling on the past mistakes like many of you on here!)

[North West]

In response to andrewmcharlton's second last post, the global recession is not responsible for DTVA losing over two thirds of it's business as the bulk of said business had gone prior to this, the economy merely provided Peel with a convenient excuse and has since prevented a recovery of sorts for DTVA.

A convenient excuse to do what exactly?

[DTVAirport]

A convenient excuse for losing the business

[davidjohnson6]

DTVAirport - I'm guilty of having said plenty of dumb things on this website, but are you sure that DTV has as much chance as any other airport of a Heathrow route with Little Red ?

[DTVAirport]

Depends how far they expand, domestic UK flights aren't exactly big money-makers, airports like Glasgow and Belfast would probably get priority, but after that we should be in with a shout, my understanding is there's some sort of connections or positive relationship or something like that between us and Virgin

[Skipness One Echo]

but after that we should be in with a shout, my understanding is there's some sort of connections or positive relationship or something like that between us and Virgin
I should point out that Virgin Red are carrying mainly fresh air up and down the UK in A320s at the minute, loads are shocking.

[ILS32]

If you are a follower of this thread then you soon realise that there are 2 groups who contribute the most posts:
1. Those that want,hope and pray that DTVA will once again become a successful
airport to service the needs of the people of Teesside.
2. The other group are the realists who know it won't happen.

The best that can be hoped for is the idea for a business park which could bring more jobs to Teesside but Peel will have to supply the capital to make it happen.In regard to passenger figures Peel must somehow arrest the decline. If they cannot then group 2 will be right.

[GrahamK]

I think DTVA should really focus on what they've got now, get more focus on the aircraft salvage side of things, ensure KLC and T3 keep their ops running, try to make sure the RAF are happy to keep transporting troops through there. At the end of the day, the NE England is the weakest economy in the UK at the moment, and population suggest there just isnt enough capacity for 2 large-ish airports in the region. Newcastle is certainly the better location, with easy access to the whole of the region, as well as to Cumbria, the Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway. DTVA is stuck between a Rock and a Hard Place when it comes to location, unfortunately for its supporters.

Think outside of the box, if you want the airport to remain open.

[Beafer]

Re the last post; "Newcastle is certainly the better location, with easy access to the whole of the region, as well as to Cumbria, the Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway. DTVA is stuck between a Rock and a Hard Place when it comes to location, unfortunately for its supporters."

That depends where you live Graham and more people live in the DTV area and North Yorks than all the above put together.

No word from Peel yet, what a surprise.

Did Peter Foster (council) receive a reply to his many questions at the last DTV meeting? He was asking for a written reply from Peel I believe?

[Beafer]

I walked the dog down the road past the DTV car park and there are caravans everywhere.
Those propane gas tanks must be a bit hazardous in this heat?
Over 100 hundred caravans now.
Shame there wasn't that many planes or passengers :bored:

[OldManJoe]

Oh well, at least they're getting some income from somewhere.
Doubt whether the gas bottles are a hazard though.

At least Sycamore seem to be bringing in the work now.

[Northbound A1]

Passed through a very quiet DTV today compared to Amsterdam connection. The place was a ghost town.

Come on Peel get your finger out and drop the £6 passenger TAX you impose on us passengers who still use the place. :ugh:

[jetstar.8]

dropping the £6 passenger charged won`t do any good now the place is too far gone passenger wise best look at other avation uses :=

[highwideandugly]

major power cut at DTV !! not sure if open or closed ...anyone know?

[skyman771]

major power cut at DTV !! not sure if open or closed ...anyone know?

Probably can't afford to pay for the electric ;)

[highwideandugly]

closed until 1230 Tuesday according to ATC.

Now what will the airlines(and PEEL) think of that??

How can anyone ever have any confidence at this management:ugh::ugh:

[highwideandugly]

sweat over they have had a whip- round and found a shilling...open again!!:ok:

[N707ZS]

We thought it was you Beafer taking direct action instead of bleating on on here.

[Beafer]

N7007SZZzzz,
yes it was me trying to get the £6 passenger tax machine out ;)

Gazette says the power cut occured while maintaining the back up generator.

Direct action eh ---- Baaaaaaaah

[Northbound A1]

Another Peel deal gone bad after £59m of gov money spent on project.
Scots have their say. Councils take note.

Agency paid £10m for land that is worth less than nothing | Herald Scotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/agency-paid-10m-for-land-that-is-worth-less-than-nothing.21624846)

"Agency paid £10m for land that is worth less than nothing".
The report into the seven years of progress of the agency found not only did Riverside Inverclyde pay real estate firm Peel Holdings over the odds for the land but the scale of the contamination on the site left it with a value of minus £6m.

It also claims many of those consulted as part of the review have felt the agency has lacked rigour in its dealings with Peel.

The review of the arm's-length Riverside Inverclyde found it had met only 7% of its 2600 job targets since 2006, working out at a cost per job cost per job of £321,000.

It has built just 5% of the 2285 new homes promised, while also securing just 1% of the private sector investment targeted.

The report also claimed "the net value of the site was a negative land value, not +£10million" as valued in 2008, adding a leading estate agent identified no profits would be expected in the development proposal and, in the light of the information provided, indicate a residual negative value of -£5,998,035".

"Some feel Riverside Inverclyde could be more robust in its dealings with Peel to achieve better regeneration outcomes".

Chris Osborne, a former SNP councillor, said "the number of jobs created most definitely is a scandal."
- - - - -

More about Peel and contamination.
Government wasted. £59 of public money, but only 191 jobs created.
Calls for full publication of report into Riverside Inverclyde after £millions wasted (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/7742-calls-for-full-publication-of-report-into-riverside-inverclyde-after-pmillions-wasted)

[Beafer]

Front page news in the Gazette.

The World Duty Free Group are to close the duty free shop at DTV in October and have given the eight members of staff three months notice.

Peel said they were reviewing options for the future.
Durham Tees Valley Airport duty free to close - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/durham-tees-valley-airport-duty-5326716)

[highwideandugly]

Anyone know why the monthly passenger figures haven't been issued yet for June?

Good new s from sycamore...is that 48 aeroplanes in the hanger? or on the airfield?

[davidjohnson6]

highwide - the only 2 airports that are missing are Durham Tees Valley and Doncaster. There was a comment about 10 days ago on the Doncaster thread saying Peel no longer wish to publish, but there were other comments suggesting the CAA are unlikely to give Peel a waiver to this requirement. You may also wish to look at the graphs at
Provisional Airport Statistics Notes | Aviation Intelligence | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=81&pagetype=90&pageid=12184)
While I agree that DTV is usually pretty quick about reporting stats to the CAA, it seems normal that each month a small number of airports need an extra 2 or 3 weeks to report their stats

Separately, anyone know how long the current duty free concession contract has been running between DTV airport and World Duty Free ? Was it signed 5+ years ago when DTV was doing ok, or was it signed much more recently ?
In a typical duty free concession contract, how much might WDF have been paying as rent / royalty fees to the airport per year ?

[highwideandugly]

Interesting...but I bet the duty free over a year,rent etc. doesn't amount to a lot less than Sycamore? so basically squits?

still quiet on the PEEL front...no follow up announcement re the failure of the bid...is it just me.. but I just have no faith in Peel or their policies...Anyone watching this or reading the excellent threads from all surely , have no faith in them as an airport operator???

Please local councils ...... offer a million and take back control before its too late.:mad:

[onyxcrowle]

Sad to say but I think KLM might decide to pull the plug, Perhaps even try from Dsa instead.
They still have yet to announce this years ' third' UK airport!.
Post edited.....

[Beafer]

onyxcrowie, that must have been a funny mushroom you'd had there as you lost me on this thread and the Doncaster one ;)

[onyxcrowle]

I have re edited it now lol. I was half asleep trying to write on a mobile app.
Between my overtired rambling state and the phones seemimg desire to turn every word into whatever the hell it chooses .....
Anyway MME it is a shame things have gone that far.
Ive driven up there , About the only advert as such are the odd road sign.
Perhaps its future lies in dismantling and maybe a business jet hub.
But as posted above , Perhaps Klm might end up moving on.....

[jetstar.8]

A visit to DTVA Yesterday noted no aircraft for the Sunderland Airshow this year

[N707ZS]

There hasn't been any for years. And just look how poor the air show is! compared to what it used to be.

[papa oscar]

It's political. The airshow traffic and the organisation responsible for arranging the airshow have been offered the services at DTVA at a cost cheaper than Newcastle, but due to Sunderland having a financial interest in Newcastle, the airshow traffic are placed at Newcastle.

[jamier]

Currently being reported that the Runway is closed at Teesside due to an incident with a light aircraft. Emergency services on the scene.

[jetstar.8]

crew ok :ok:
Runway reopened about 3pm bst

[N707ZS]

From a photograph left main undercarriage collapsed/didn't lock.

[jamier]

Thanks jetstar. Glad to hear everyone was ok. :ok:

[OldManJoe]

Seems Shaun Wilkinson/Teesside Flight Training/Euro Exec Aviation/Cloud 9 Leasing isn't having much luck in aviation!

Last time I saw the aircraft at DTV, it's rudder was flapping around in the wind banging off its stops.

[TSR2]

How many diversions were there due to runway closure ?

[highwideandugly]

Good job the air show wasn't at DTV or that would have made us look silly!!

Diversions??? non there wasnt any traffic !!!:ugh:

[N707ZS]

Looked a simple recovery, lift the wing pull down the gear clear the runway, swill a bit of foam. Its sat on stand 7 awaiting a decision.

I hear the spitfire had problems at Newcastle, luckily it made it back.

[Beafer]

Only news from Peel is that Peter Nears objects to a wind turbine in darlington.
Wind turbine campaigners sense victory after airport objection (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/darlington/10574320.Wind_turbine_campaigners_sense_victory_after_airpor t_objection/)

"In a letter to the planning authority, Darlington Borough Council, the airport’s strategic planning director Peter Nears said the turbine was likely to show up on radar systems.
He wrote: “This effect can be highly distracting for a controller and can cause confusion when trying to distinguish between real aircraft and false targets."

Real aircraft eh, now thats funny coming from the DTV planning man ;)

[canberra97]

So no mention on here then about World Duty Free pulling out of the airport once it's franchise expires in October!

I can not see anyone else taking up the franchise to run the duty free especially at this time and so I think it will probably have to be run inhouse by the airport at least they can keep ALL the earnings from the shop then.

[jetstar.8]

canberra97
It was posted on 26/7/13 post 2823 by Beafer
Keep up

[davidjohnson6]

canberra - you probably know more about the commercial aspects of airport duty free than me, but as far as I can tell, now that the Tenerife route has been dropped, the only regular flight from DTV to anywhere outside the EU is a summer seasonal weekly flight to Jersey with less than 900 outbound passengers in the whole of 2012. Thus spirits and tobacco are unlikely to have much in the way of sales. Perfume is the only thing remaining significantly worthwhile. All other destinations are in the EU, making it much harder to generate any significant savings over the UK High Street.

Is there really still a commercial need for a duty free shop at DTV ?

[davidjohnson6]

Overall message - small pockets of good news, but also seeing a fair bit of pain as a byproduct of Easyjet launching new routes at Newcastle
Aberdeen - DTV had a small improvement but Newcastle had a big improvement
Amsterdam - very pronounced shift by KLM customers away from DTV in favour of Newcastle, even after making allowances for Easyjet
Jersey - significant decline against strong growth at Newcastle
Palma - pax number slightly increase despite being moved to a less-than-ideal day of the week - surprisingly resilient

DTV had 13,771 pax in June, down 7.3 % on June 2012 - loss equates to 1,084 pax
DTV rolling year has 162,727 pax

NCL had 488,442 pax in June, up 1.2 % on June 2012 - gain equates to 5,668 pax
NCL rolling year has 4,387,443 pax

In June 2012, for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 32.5 passengers at NCL
In June 2013, for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 35.5 passengers at NCL
As an additional reference, in June 2009 (i.e. post credit crunch), for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 16.2 passengers at NCL

Aberdeen route for June
DTV - 2,795 pax, up 11% from 2,519 pax, meaning a gain of 276 passengers
NCL - 2,552 pax, up 44% from 1,777 pax, meaning a gain of 775 passengers

Jersey route for June
DTV - 503 pax, down 17% from 604 pax, meaning a loss of 101 passengers
NCL - 2,680 pax, up 42% from 1,886 pax, meaning a gain of 794 passengers
There were 5 Saturdays in both June 2012 and June 2013. Easyjet begain flying NCL-JER in March 2013 and there now appears to be a significant oversupply of seats (and perhaps some aspect of price war ?) between Jersey and NE England - at least one of Flybe or Easyjet will be feeling pain. NCL-JER load factor in June 2013 was 75% while DTV-JER load factor has fallen from 77% to 64%

Palma route for June
DTV - 1,495 pax, down 19% from 1,843 pax meaning a loss of 348 passengers
DTV (allowing for days in month) - up 1%
NCL - 40,944 pax, up 5% from 39,175 pax meaning a gain of 1,769 passengers

Palma analysis:
Palma was on Saturdays in 2012 (5x in June 2012), but now Tuesdays (4x in June 2013). Going from 184 pax in June 2012 to 187 pax per flight in June 2013 *and* going from a leisure-friendly Saturday to a leisure-challenging Tuesday with seat occupancy now at 99%, suggests there's demand for more flights to Spanish beaches - these are encouraging signs for the Alicante route in summer 2014

Amsterdam route for June
DTV - 8,433 pax, down 4% from 8,819 pax meaning a loss of 386 passengers
NCL - 31,709 pax, up 32% from 24,016 pax meaning a gain of 7,693 passengers
NCL KLM-only (my estimate) - 26,941 pax, up 12% from 24,016 pax meaning a gain of 2,925 passengers
Note - Easyjet began NCL-AMS in Dec 2012, flying 4x weekly in June 2013

Amsterdam analysis:
DTV-AMS load factor has fallen from 65% to 62%
On a Europe-wide basis, Easyjet saw a load factor in June of 89.9%
Easyjet flew NCL-AMS on 17 days in June. Using, a 156-seat A319 with 89.9% load factor (ie average of 140 pax turn up for a flight), we get 4,768 passengers, which falls far short of the NCL-AMS route being up by 7,693 passengers - this tells us KLM are seeing passenger numbers up by 12% on the NCL-AMS route, in contrast to DTV-AMS being down 4%
Even if we assume Easyjet had a 100% load factor, KLM are still seeing NCL doing 10% better year-on-year compared to 4% worse at DTV

While Easyjet and KLM have very different products, there is overlap for customers travelling point-to-point between NE England and the Netherlands - this may have led KLM on the NCL route (but probably less so on the DTV route) to lower prices slightly or perhaps improve their product offering to defend market share - thus stimulating growth on NCL-AMS and also sucking some passengers from DTV towards NCL

KLM is seeing a very clear shift in emphasis by the overall passenger base away from MME to NCL, even if Easyjet are seeing 100% load factors on their NCL-AMS route.

[Get me some traffic]

Drop the PFF. I will not use the airport while I have to pay £6. It is cheaper for me to use LBA. Drop the PFF and I will return.

[skyman771]

The DTV pax suggests that virtually no NCL pax migrate to DTV even when availability at NCL tight. Particular case in point very difficult to get last minute PMI flights ex NCL in June, whereas the asumumption is that DTV pax down on same no. of flights as 2012? thus spare capacity ?
If so then DTV has certainly lost the plot in its ability to attract floating pax, & perhaps "Get me some traffic's" observation as to PFF says it all.:(
It seems pretty obvious that no one is going to pay more for an inferior product.
It would be extremely interesting & indeed relevant if they were able to run a survey as to how far away departing pax travel to get to DTV. One suspects that it may that it is not very far at all and that the practical current catchment area is in reality now one of the lowest in the country.

[highwideandugly]

Superb precis as usual from DJ6. It really illustrates what a mess the airport is in..terminal decline.
I cant see KLM pulling out though as they do have a core of passengers they can rely on.However they must be thinking it wouldn't do them any harm to pull the DTV operation as they would still pick up the lucrative passengers as they would just switch to Newcastle--as shown>

Peel as usual..remarkably quiet.I wonder if they run their other business like this onE !!:ugh:

[P330]

I feel almost guilty saying this, but I'm a regular KLM flyer on business and this year, for the first time, I've done more KLM flights from Newcastle than I have MME. The reasons are varied but at the time of booking up:

1) Newcastle had better connections (less waiting time in AMS) as they have added frequency to NCL. I get longer at home on the way out or if arriving early back into AMS, I can leave to come home at 8ish on the morning (which is the first departure to NCL) rather than wait until 10 for the MME flight. I know there isn't much in it when you take the A1 into consideration, but after flying for 14 hours...all you want to do is get home and another two hour wait in AMS isn't appealing.

2) Cheaper prices. I will always compare the prices of the two, add in the pain/cost of the western bypass and make a call. Newcastle has come out cheaper on a few times this year.

3) Winter. Some of the flights earlier in the year were over the long winter months and I felt more comfortable booking them from Newcastle as I felt the airport had a greater chance of being open.

I've supported this airport for years, and will despite the decline, continue to give it my money BUT only when it is economic and practical to do so. I know travelling through it isn't the best experience but I don't go to an airport for an experience, I want to pass through it as quickly and painlessly as possible and despite the negatives so far this year, DTV is still quick and painless to travel through (grumpy security and border control excepted).

And on the subject of grumpy border control, I've now started leaving my passport in my wallet just to get shouted at for a bit of personal entertainment. I find it funny that with no passengers queuing and no more international arrivals for hours, someone will pass back my passport to me to ask me to take it out of my wallet.....heaven forbid they should take it out of the wallet themselves.

[Beafer]

Peel make a song and dance about the government applying taxes to flights yet Peel apply their own £6 extra tax just to travel through the place.
It just shows they are trying to keep people away. Lets see them scrap the £6 tax if they are serious about making the place attractive to customers.
They might need a few flights as well.

They are always announcing news in Doncaster through their friends webpage but its earily quiet up here.

The Northern Echo talks about the declining pax numbers and some of the public comment below the article on what they think.
Passenger numbers continue to fall at Durham Tees Valley Airport (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10590131.Passenger_numbers_continue_to_fall_at_Durham_Tees_V alley_Airport/)

The councils appear to be lapdogs to the whims of Peel. Why are some of the councillors still on the board for 8 years? :=

[Jamesair]

Excellent piece of statistical analysis DJ6.

I remember reading that KLM look on NCL as a growth airport on their network.

apart from the Eastern ABZ route the outlook for MME looks increasingly bleak, such pax figures would make any potential operator run a mile.

I understand that 5M pax a year is needed to attract an influx of new operators and routes, which means NCL still has work to do.

[mmeman]

Just a little correction to the analysis for the Palma flights - last year they were on a Saturday and there were 5 flights in the month of June, this year they are on a Tuesday with only 4 flights. So by my reckoning, that means there were about 187 people on every flight to Palma in June 2013 - about a 98% load factor - not too bad now really.

[davidjohnson6]

mmeman - thanks for pointing out my mistake - have updated the analysis

[fl dutchman]

Just an obsevation re Jersey/over supply of seats. Summer 2012 had I think either 4 or 5 flights per week from NCL on 78 seat aircraft making 312 seats available each way if it was 4 or 390seats if it was 5.
Summer 2013 has just one 78 seater(FlyBe) and 2x 156 seaters (Easyjet) per week making 390 seats each way available.
So depending on the correct frequency for 2012 the increase in capacity is quite small or none at all.

[Jamesair]

Flybe NCL to Jersey was 5 flights weekly.

[Northbound A1]

Hartlepool councillors are outraged and members plan to write to the government to complain about recent RGF grant decision.
I'm sure Vince Cable will be straight up to speak to them.

The council should save the cost of a stamp and ask their own man on the inside at DTV to speak to Peel instead. I doubt they will get much sense out of Peel either.
Outrage over airport snub - Local - Hartlepool Mail (http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/local/outrage-over-airport-snub-1-5918339)

Has anybody explained about Peels track record with airports (Sheffied) to Robbie and his pals at the council?
It was only ever the land which Peel wanted Robbie :ugh:

[Beafer]

Peel must believe their own spin. Posted 20 hours ago.
Aviation - The Peel Group (http://www.peel.co.uk/activities/aviation)

I didn't know they were comedians as well ;)

Peel site.
When u click on the About us link. It comes up with =
Determination, perseverance, patience.

The main page puts this twadle out.
"Durham Tees Valley Airport

Huge investment in Durham Tees Valley Airport (http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/), by Peel, has resulted in an access road to the terminal, car park improvements and an enlargement of the terminal building. It serves UK and European destinations."

Peel must have a good spin doctor who writes this rubbish.

[andrewmcharlton]

Peel must have a good spin doctor who writes this rubbish

Would you prefer that the write "all hope has been abandoned and don't bother pitching up".

You can hardly blame them for making some marketing spin for PR purposes....

[Lancelot37]

It's not marketing spin the everyone wants, it's action, but that doesn't appear to be in their vocabulary!

[Beafer]

I'd rather have planes landing and taking off,
but the "HUGE investment" bit did make me wonder where?

[davidjohnson6]

Northbound - while provision of wifi to passengers and landing fees is interesting, I'm not sure I completely understand the point you're trying to make - could you perhaps rephrase slightly ?

[Northbound A1]

In reply to Davyjohnsons post,

If I owned DTV and had the millions which Peel have sat in their bank account I would introduce free wifi and cut landing fee's by half IF they want the airport to succeed??

I raised the point as its news mentioned in the last week which highlights where the management have lost the plot.

Lets face it Davy, the traffic would help buy fuel, use shops...thats if there any are left.

Its not brain surgery, but Peel management and the councillors who sit on the large director board dont appear to have a clue from where I'm sat :confused:

[P330]

North....

I would take issue with that statement about not having a clue. I don't work for Peel and am not here to defend them but I doubt any on this thread are experienced airport operators with an in depth business knowledge of how to change this situation around. Until we all are, I think its unfair to make comments like 'don't have a clue'.

What we can say, without a doubt is this:

1) Peel do not have a good track record.
2) The market for regional airports is hugely different to what it was 5-10 years ago.

Which other "very regional" airports are persuading scheduled airlines to come to them? Which others are getting charters to abandon their strategy of consolidation and invest in regions? Which other very regional airports are getting lo-co operators in who sustain operations there? If anyone can give me a list, and then add the question which of those airports have the same economical/catchment issues the DTV region has? The point I am trying to get at and I'm here to be proved wrong, I'd be surprised if there is another airport in the same situation as ours that is materially improving?

We all believe things can and should be better but I do think until there is a material change in industry norms, markets conditions, economic conditions etc, I can't see things changing significantly at DTV (in terms of a passenger airport).

Of course, private aviation, business aviation, scrapping and freight are other options - but my points relate specifically to passgenger operations.

[Northbound A1]

Nil points p330...

Lets look at where NCL and LBA are now.
They have had to face the same difficult times, but hey they dont have Peel running the show and look at the success stories at both airports less than an hour away.

What experience do the many yes men councillors who sit on the DTV board bring to the table???

Not a lot except noses in troughs as usual :hmm:

Here's a thought, the only person who appears to know how to operatate a business at DTV is the Sycamore MD. He might make a better airport if he was running the place.
I dont work for Peel either ;)

[P330]

North - let me come back again...

You'll note I used the made-up term "very regional" airport. Its a nonsense term and maybe better expressed as a "minor regional". but my point is DTV is, was and always will be different to a major regional. NCL is a big city. Leeds is a big city with a financial district. You can add other regionals like BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA etc to that list.

My question about comparisons was to other "minor regional" airports. Can anyone come back to me with evidence of a minor regional airport seeing material success in the three areas I raised? If you can, and that airport is living in a region that has the same economic and social climate that DTV is....I'll shut up and get my coat now. :)

If you want to complain that DTV is not NCL or LBA and isn't seeing anything like the traffic that they are...then whilst I'll agree with your facts, I think the complaint you raise against Peel would likely be made against any other owner of DTV. "Teesside" and "Newcastle or Leeds" are totally different animals.

Compare apples with apples....

[apaul]

Smaller regional airports that are doing better than Durham Tees Valley - Blackpool, Bournmouth, Exeter, Humberside, Inverness, Prestwich, Southend etc.

[Robert-Ryan]

I wouldn't exactly say Newcastle is a success story - what exactly have they achieved under their current MD? Next to nothing, in fact, under his watch they've lost a fair bit of business, it's just barely noticeable because of their size to begin with. It was the guy that was accused of corruption that made NCL a success story and that same guy is now at Leeds and seems to be delivering the goods there as that place is starting to boom.

P330, I understand what you're getting at and I agree with you, but we still seem to lack something compared to others.

[P330]

I was on the verge of getting my coat :) when I thought I would try again to score above 'nil' points with North.....

So, the other credible airports mentioned:

Bournemouth - good comparison but I would guess that the economics of the region are much stronger than Teesside. Ceratinly Hampshire/Dorset is a wealthier area.

Blackpool - probably a good comparison actually though if you read the Blackpool news, they remain nervous on Jet2's commitment, without which I think they'd be in a very poor shape.

Humberside - Another good comparison - but hardly setting the world alight.

Southend - Look at the catchment area.

etc...

In my opinion, only Blackpool and Humberside are decent comparables and reading their local news shows just how tough things are and precarious the locals feel about their sustainability.

I'm not saying Peel are great...they're clearly far from it, but the world has changed and its going to take a lot to change our fortunes. Peel bashing won't help as Peel are only a part of the root cause of the decline.

If I was to play Armchair CEO and turn this around...I'd be focussing heavily on non-passenger revenues. The best way for the small and weak to survive in difficult times is to change and adapt - become a specialist player. We're unlikely to survive by perennially asking KLM to add a 4th flight or Thomson to add some bucket and spade routes.....that just prolongs the agony. I see three choices:

1) Invest now in becoming DIFFERENT.
2) Keep plugging away, losing money and hope for better times with the odd gains and losses in routes in the meantime.
3) Give up and sell your investment.

We seem to be on track 2 with the best hope we can become a Humberside or a Blackpool (if we survive that long).

How many points do I get this time? :)

[davidjohnson6]

P330 - douze points

There is a (possibly mythical) story told to students in business schools in marketing classes about a company that around 1900 made buggy whips used by a driver to tell the horses to get going and start to pull a carriage. The company was renowned for making the highest quality buggy whips, valued by connoisseurs far and wide. Unfortunately, Karl Benz invented a thing called the automobile, Henry Ford became very good at manufacturing for the masses, and the buggy whip company eventually folded

If the CEO of the buggy whip manufacturer had broadened out a little and moved into the "starter device" business, making first starter handles, and then ignition systems, and retained their qality ethos, the company's history could have been quite different...


On a separate note, you may be aware that the new CEO of Flybe has done a boardroom rejig and initiated a major review of Flybe's operations. I note that a one-way flight from DTV to Jersey *tomorrow* can be purchased for £61, and the following Saturday for £51. I note also that Easyjet this year began flying Newcastle-Jersey 2x weekly. Anyone wish to conjecture as to whether the DTV-Jersey route will be around for summer 2014 ?

[Beafer]

Nil points Peel.

They should give it back to the local people (councils) for the £500k which Peel paid ten years ago.

Simple, and the public would at least still own the land and not some greedy company who have never been interested in the place.
Peel only bought VAS out when the press and MP's began to look at what was occuring down at DTV.
Not much happening from what I can see, except the odd tumbleweed being blown about.
I did note there was some sort of drilling going on down near the old gym hangar, they havent started Fracking have they? :}

[davidjohnson6]

they havent started Fracking have they?While much of the North East is beautiful.... the area around DTV really does tick the box as being desolate. Maybe Lord Howell had a point.... :E


des·o·late /ˈdesəlit/

Adjective
(of a place)


Deserted (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deserted) and devoid (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/devoid) of inhabitants (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inhabitant).
Barren (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barren) and lifeless (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lifeless).
Made (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/made) unfit (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unfit) for habitation (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/habitation) or use (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/use).
Dismal (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dismal) or dreary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dreary).
Sad (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sad), forlorn (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forlorn) and hopeless (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hopeless).

[P330]

From zero to douze in 4 posts....I like it. :)

David...the example you give is the perfect analogy. One thing that MME is right now is small....that means if it chooses a change, invest and adapt strategy, it is more agile and able to do it. There has to be the will, the vision, the market and the investment to make this happen. Are Peel prepared to do this? Well, they have the money which is usually the scarce resource. They presumably have successful people in their organsiation as they're not a small and shabby outfit. Much of the ingredients *could* be there......

The problem is....most on here want the future to be a bigger, better, passenger airport facility and are upset we're not as big as our neighbours. Sadly, I don't think this will ever happen...or even get close to happening, no matter who our owners are. However...we could become "better" (make more money in P&L terms - this is a business afterall) than our neighbours by being different to them.

We're the corner shop to Newcastle's Tesco. We can't and shouldn't try to compete. Instead, we should turn our corner shop into a "farm" shop; let kids come and grow their own food on our land; sell local produce; play soothing pipe music down the aisles....

I'm off on a tangent....but you get my drift. The future is not looking up the road in envy and trying to beat them....it is something completely different. I just hope our owners are on this track behind closed doors.....and their plans will soon be revealed...

[Northbound A1]

Re P330's post:
"Are Peel prepared to do this?
Well, they have the money which is usually the scarce resource.
They presumably have successful people in their organsiation as they're not a small and shabby outfit.
Much of the ingredients *could* be there....."

I think most on this site know that Peel are builders, not of airports, but what they do with the land after they obtain an airfield... its all in the funny handshakes and not what you know, its who you know... as with the certain councillors on the board :oh:

The P doesnt stand for Peel does it? ;)

Trois points :ok:

[onyxcrowle]

If your really wanting to think different. Why not extend the runway by at least double , And offer it all up to Branson as the Uk base for Virgin Galactic ;):P

[SWBKCB]

They don't want to to extend the runway, just loop it so we can carry on going round and round in the same circles.... :hmm:

[onyxcrowle]

They should Have Developed Elvington. It has a huge runway
Large population nr by.
Might have Done better than Mme

[Lancelot37]

Is there any aircraft in current production that MME cannot accept?

[DTVAirport]

Lancelot37 - yes and no, we can take the 747 as most will know we have on many occasions, but not if it's full, this may only relate to the cargo variant. We can land the A380 but it wouldn't get off the runway. Not sure about Antonov's, we've taken the 124 a couple of times but I'm guessing the 225 wouldn't stand a chance.

[Beafer]

Its well known in the village that when the runway was constructed they used surplus ash material as a cheap filler from the nearby ICI plant.

The ash is causing it to slowly sink according to ex airport workers. Dont know how far its sinking per year but probably not much. Peel tend to only patch the taxi ways, or only resurface the centre part of taxi ways due to the cost.

Elvington was used as a standby for the space shuttle flights incase they needed to return in an emergency due to its length. Top gear also use it sometimes, but the hamster Hammond tends to wander off line.

[paarmo]

A. ICI is not nearby.
2. Ash has never been a major by product at any Teesside ICI Plant.
C. I have never heard so much rubbish in my life.

[Beafer]

Parmmmoo Did you mean
A
B
C or 1, 2, 3 ?

I know it was 3.52am when you typed your A, 2, C, :D

Ash is what was mentioned and the ex worker has more knowledge than you unless you also worked there at the time?
The material may have another technical name but it was a by-product of ICI and used as landfill under the tarmac.

DTV is looking busy this week, the rich have arrived in their private jets for the glorious 12th. Tweety pie watch out.

ps, you can see the ICI chimneys from DTV if you look east. Its down the road in Billingham.

[Northbound A1]

DTV may be getting a new council director as there has been a vote of no confidence in the Redcar Council Leader George at the local Labour branch.
George Dunning: Motion of no confidence in council leader over handling of theatre plans for Guisborough - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/george-dunning-motion-no-confidence-5697075)

Wonder how much Peel pay these council directors?

[Beafer]

The Sycamore scrapping company appear to be doing very well.
Their latest 320 arrived to be scrapped. What happens to the body? Is it melted down for the alloy?
http://www.dtvmovements.co.uk/images/BS_FGHQK.jpg

[Northbound A1]

Laterst Peel airport jobs. Now form an orderly queue.

Shame the Trade Marketing Job has closed today.
Robin Hood Airport (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/corporate-community/jobs/current-vacancies-at-the-airport)

£6.63p per hour for one post :bored:
Current Vacancies


Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield is part of Peel Airports, which also includes Durham Tees Valley Airport.

Details of current vacancies for Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield can be found on this page when vacancies are available.

Alternatively, if you’re looking for work across the wider airport group and are in a position to commute or relocate, you may find other vacancies of interest on the Durham Tees Valley Airport (http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/) website.
Cargo Business Development Manager (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/job/cargo-business-development-manager)

Reporting to the Head of Aviation Development, you will be responsible for developing Doncaster Sheffield Airport as a leading freight hub to achieve profitable and sustainable cargo and general aviation related business and explore such opportunities for Durham Tees Valley Airport, in order to maximise revenue whilst minimising costs.
Competitive Salary, plus bonus, Company Car & benefits.
Read more (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/job/cargo-business-development-manager) | Closing date: 28th August 2013
Aerodrome Air Traffic Controller Officer/Trainee Air Traffic Control Officer (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/job/aerodrome-air-traffic-controller-officer-trainee-air-traffic-control-office)

Vantage Air Traffic Service Ltd is seeking to recruit an Aerodrome Air Traffic Control Officer (ATCO) or a Trainee Air Traffic Control Officer to join the existing team at Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield.
Salary: Aerodrome ATCO: 36,069.68 - 41,279.96 (dependant on experience). Trainee ATCO: £20,604.00 - £25,755.00
Read more (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/job/aerodrome-air-traffic-controller-officer-trainee-air-traffic-control-office) | Closing date: 21st August 2013
Temporary Air Services Assistant (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/job/temporary-air-services-assistant)

Immediate start required. Contract Completion Date: 31st October 2013. £6.63 per hour. :bored:
Read more (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/job/temporary-air-services-assistant) | Closing date: 16th August 2013
Trade Marketing Executive (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/job/trade-marketing-executive)

Reporting to the Head of Marketing & Communications you will be responsible for the day to day sales relationship with the Travel Trade and key Corporates across both Airports’ catchment areas.
Read more (http://www.robinhoodairport.com/jobs/job/trade-marketing-executive) | Closing date: 15th August 2013

[Lancelot37]

What do you get if you pay peanuts?

It's obvious from those levels of pay that they don't want the airport to succeed.

You can get that much sweeping the roads. It says a lot about Peel and their intentions.

[davidjohnson6]

I know the money for the cleaner role is pretty rubbish, but there's a school of thought which says that if you are unemployed, it's better to do something with your time (even if you are earning the same as dole money), just so that you keep yourself busy. When applying for a half decent job, better that one's CV shows you have spent a couple of months being a dogsbody than doing nothing at all...

[Beafer]

That could have been Maggie Thatcher saying that Davyjohnson, it was a flash back to the iron ladies speaches during the miners strike. :yuk:

[LGS6753]

...and it remains as true now as it was then. :ok:

[Robert-Ryan]

I've heard two things recently, one is that the TNT contract has just been renewed for another five years and the airport asked if TNT would be willing to vacate the hangar (with the intention of giving it to Sycamore) if they provided a suitable alternative facility elsewhere on site, but TNT refused as they want the option to be able to bring their aircraft back should they ever wish to.

But I also heard the contract is coming up for renewal and whether it gets renewed or not I don't know but it was made to sound like Sycamore will have the hangar before too much longer.

I would love to see TNT move into Hangar 4 (their fuel bowsers are there anyway so it would be more convenient in that sense, plus you could have trucks go in one side and out the other which would be much more efficient for them) and they'd still be able to bring an aircraft back one day if they wanted too, albeit without the maintenance side of things (Sycamore could even do that for them). But Sycamore need and desperately want hangar 2 because it has a set of mini-doors above the main doors that would allow them to take aircraft straight in without having to remove the tail section first like they're having to now (due to the design of hangar 1, mini-doors can't be retrofitted).

[highwideandugly]

July passenger figures up!!!! and Newcastle down...maybe the start of something good??:D

[Jamesair]

Not so hasty...there are three lots of pax figures not in yet. BHX/EXETER and JERSEY and the airport site shows the pax figures up on last year.

[davidjohnson6]

Would concur with Jamesair.

Aberdeen - Newcastle is growing much faster than DTV and catching up quickly
Amsterdam - as with last month, even after allowing for Easyjet, KLM are seeing strong growth at Newcastle against modest decline at DTV
Palma - up 25% but only because there were 4 flights in July 2012 and 5 in 2013. Encouragi.g that change from Saturday to Tuesday had no effect
Jersey - data not available yet

Will do a full analysis maybe next week

[Northbound A1]

Re TNT, the EU have blocked UPS's take over for the moment. Ups are appealing the decision according to the industry.

Wonder how much it costs to lease a hangar? Have Peel put the prices up since taking over.

On a route note, a friend has just flown to Portugal with her family.

She asked for quotes at the travel agents and I was surprised to hear that both NCL and LBA were £1000 more expensive than Edingburgh Airport for the 4 of them.

So Edingburgh got the deal. 2.5 hour drive up the road but they are a grand better off. Cheap parking too.

DTV didnt get a look in at the travel agents she said. :hmm:

[mmeman]

Jersey passenger figures are available on CAA website for Durham Tees - up 8% to 430.

Quite a good month really compared to some other months, although still disappointing that Amsterdam is slightly down - a loss of 310 passengers - 10passengers a day. If I have worked it out correctly 48 passengers per flight - 60% load factor?

[apaul]

Northbound, why would you be surprised that flying from Edinburgh is cheaper than northern England in August? Summer school holidays are a lot earlier in Scotland and the children are now back at school. Things work the other way as well and a lot of Scots fly from Newcastle or Manchester in early July to get a better price.

[Northbound A1]

apaul,

Aye I bet there are a lot of scots travelling down to DTV to fly to portugal in their school holidays :E

[VickersVicount]

certainly not DTV but with direct train link from Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport, there are many who go there

[Beafer]

As the summer is drawing to a close and the airport usually shuts at 10pm how many aircraft use DTV each day in the winter months?
Someone asked me in the pub but I didnt know, but even now its very quiet next door.

Did Peter Foster receive the written replies which he asked for when the Peel boss left the room at the last community meeting?
I havent seen him to ask.

[Robert-Ryan]

Beafer, did Mr Foster make a formal request or just a passing comment for said written replies?

[Beafer]

Robert, I recalled the meeting and a mention about written questions in the northern echo. Never heard what Peel's repy was?

Questions asked of Durham Tees Valley airport executives (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10509603.Questions_asked_of_Durham_Tees_Valley_airport_execu tives/)

By Alexa Copeland (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/biog/40206), Reporter (Darlington)

"BOSSES at Durham Tees Valley (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/search/?search=Tees+Valley&topic_id=2537) Airport (DTV) are being asked what has been done over the last 12-months to secure its future.

At a meeting of the Durham Tees Valley Airport Consultative Committee today (Wednesday, June 26), Andy Foulds, commercial director at Peel Airports, revealed that DTV planned to trial flights to Bulgaria for one month in August 2014.

He added that there would also be a summer programme of flights to Ibiza next year.

But Peter Foster, a representative for the Durham Association of Local Councils, said he was disappointed at an apparent lack of aviation activity over the last year.

He intended to put his concerns to Mr Foulds and ask what developments had been made, but the director had to leave partway through the meeting so
the committee agreed to put the question in writing to Peel.

Mr Foster said: “In the last 12-months I reckon there has not been a lot of movement at this airport.

“What makes up an airport is all sorts of aviation activity to bring money into the airport.

“The only movement there has been is the number of caravans we have now got parked here.

“There is more advertising about those caravans all around Darlington and Durham, saying ‘come and park your caravan at the airport’ than there is about flights.”

Passenger numbers at DTV hit their peak in 2006 when almost one million passengers used the airport, but by last year that figure had dropped to less than 200,000."
End quote by Echo.

[Northbound A1]

Do "Which" know something which they aren't telling us?
Their latest survey into airports in the UK.

The Journal newspaper covers the story about Newcastle coming top but they didnt even include DTV for some reason???

Newcastle Airport rated best large airport in the country - Journal Live (http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-airport-rated-best-large-5743810)

Durham Tees Valley Airport was not included in the survey. :eek:

Which? executive director Richard Lloyd said:
“Our research shows a jumbo jet-sized gap in the performance of UK airports with smaller terminals generally performing better.
“It is clear some of our major airports have some work to do if they are to keep more of their passengers satisfied.”

[davidjohnson6]

Durham Tees Valley Airport was not included in the surveyDTV accounts for less than 0.075% of commercial passenger air transport in the UK, or 1 passenger in every 1,350. Newquay and Derry both have more passengers than DTV but are missing from the survey as well.

While Which? has a desire to be objective, they also need to make editorial judgments as to relevance - no point waffling on about a product that very few of its readers will even consider purchasing or using. Should Which have included Dundee and Gloucestershire airports as well ? What about all the airports on the Scottish islands ? You have to draw the line somewhere...

Furthermore, when carrying out a consumer survey, there is also the need to ensure that the data is statistically reliable - i.e. you have enough responses about an airport to ensure your summary data is not unduly swayed by the opinion of 1 single person. If DTV accounted for 0.075% of the 11,500 replies Which? received, then about 9 of those responses would be about DTV - generally within statistics you want to see at least 25 responses before you can draw any meaningful and reliable conclusions. It is likely that Which? decided not to include DTV as to do so would have meant publishing unreliable and biased opinions.

[mmeteesside]

Anyone know why there has been a Binair Metro from Brno for the last 5 working days in a row? I'm guessing its something to do with parts for a factory (Nifco?)

[N707ZS]

Inbound freight.

[N707ZS]

Anyone know the true story about the Maule on stand 9. On close inspection it looks bad both wings holed and port tailplain fabric holed. Comments so far is that it flew through a tree or trees!

[Beafer]

Peel are making the news in the village. This article was raised in the pub.

No wonder they didn't win the RGF bid for DTV Airport. The FSB have been looking into Peel.

https://bdaily.co.uk/industrials/20-08-2013/fsb-denounce-peel-group-as-disastrous-for-south-yorkshire/

Some of the comments.

With over £6bn of assets, Peel are one of the largest property investment companies in the UK.

The FSB has voiced its concern over Peel’s influence in South Yorkshire.
FSB Regional Chairman, Gordon Millward, commented:
“We maintain that Peel’s closure of Sheffield City Airport – and its subsequent failure to meet its over-ambitious commitments in the switch to Robin Hood Airport - has been disastrous for the economic regeneration of South Yorkshire.“

Mr Millward was scathing in his assessment of Sheffield City Council’s part in the deals.
He said: “It seems that Sheffield City Council is building an unenviable reputation of allying itself to developers who fail to deliver.“

The FSB are concerned that Peel has had undue influence over the development of commercial aviation in South Yorkshire, and that their influence has not necessarily been in the best interests of those who wish to see major economic development of the Sheffield city region.

The FSB cite the the award of a £1.8m loan to Peel to redevelop the former site of Sheffield City Airport, but the FSB have found no evidence in their published accounts that they have the financial assets to complete the redevelopment, except by bidding for further public subsidies.

Peel acquired the airport site - 80 acres of land - from Sheffield City Council for £1 in 2002, five years after the government has spent £18m of taxpayers money on the project.

"It is hardly surprising that there is a perception Peel has local governance – if not local authorities themselves – in its pocket”.

“All Peel’s companies, including Tokenhouse Investments (Guernsey) Limited and Peel Ports Holdings (Ci) Limited, which is based in the Cayman Islands, lead to Tokenhouse Limited, registered in the Isle of Man…At the helm sits a tax exile, John Whittaker.“

Peel declined to comment on the FSB’s assertions.
---------------
Re DTV. Why did Hugh Lang want to give DTV Airport to Peel for the small sum of £500k and wouldnt talk to other interested parties at the time of the sale????

Something just doesnt add up when the land is worth many millions. It should be the councils who bring in the police on the dubious sale of DTV to Peel.

[Northbound A1]

Sounds very odd that Hugh wouldnt talk to interested parties when DTV was up for sale before Peel got it for a song?
Didn't Hugh take a job at Peel as a regional director or something after the sale of DTV to Peel?

Who would investigate the DTV deal to see who got what and why?
Was Hugh the sole person dealing with the various interested parties at the time, or were the 6 councils involved in the sale of DTV?

Thats a lot of ??'s and it might be one for the fraud squad. :bored:

[davidjohnson6]

Guys - please can we give the speculative fraud thing a rest ? If you think there were some dodgy dealings, talk to Mr/Mrs Plod, the Audit Commission at Audit Commission | Protecting the public purse (http://www.audit-commission.gov.uk/) or the Serious Fraud Office at Serious Fraud Office (SFO) (http://www.sfo.gov.uk/)

If you don't want to complain to any of these organisations about it... then please try to talk about something else...

[Robert-Ryan]

Hugh Lang was only the MD, and a pretty second rate MD at that (notice how Prestwick only started to boom after his departure).

My point is, he would have had little or no say in the sale, let alone carried out the negotiations.

[Beafer]

Most people I speak to in the village think it's a crime that the airport was sold for the very small sum of £500,000. Most didnt know until recently.

£500,000 Thats less than some houses here in Middleton St.George!

What where the councils thinking of, and why didnt they include a small clause to make sure Peel spent the promised £20m.

The money was never invested in the airport so who is responsible for giving the airport away to Peel in the first place if it wasnt Hughie?

[SWBKCB]

from the Northern Echo in 2003

Peel Holdings are believed to have offered to pay £500,000 for 75 per cent of the shares owned by the five local authorities who own Teesside Airport. It will also contribute £100,000 towards the costs of doing the deal. The report says the cost of transferring the airport could be as high as £500,000 - meaning the authorities may end up receiving £100,000 between them. Following the sale, Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, Stockton, Redcar and Cleveland and Durham county/Darlington councils will retain a 25 per cent share in the airport, which will eventually fall to 12 per cent. A statement from the five shareholding councils said "In reality it will result in a massive investment, running into many millions of pounds over the next five years. As was made clear by the shareholders, when the choice of Peel Airports as the 'preferred bidder' to become a strategic partner in the airport was announced in January, they believe that this is the most viable option for securing the levels of investment needed for the key projects which will enable the airport to maximise its own potential - and contribute to the regeneration of the communities its serves. The interest of the shareholders in negotiating the agreement with Peel is to maximise investment in the long-term future of the airport - not to generate short-term returns for themselves."

John Williams, the leader of Darlington Borough Council, said Peel had a good track record, having already turned around the fortunes of Liverpool Airport. He said the deal was the only way forward. "Anyone who uses the airport can see that it urgently needs major investment, The £20m private sector investment will give Teesside Airport a future. Without this, it will be stuck in a cycle of decline which will eventually lead to its closure." Councillor David Walsh, leader of Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council, and a member of airport committee, said: "In the present situation, it is the only way the airport can get in the investment that it needs to prosper and grow. It has to be a calculated risk. There was no way that the local authorities would have the money at their disposal to turn it into an airport fit for the coming decades. But we are getting £20m from Peel, who are to remodel the terminal and apron, providing more slots for aircraft, and attracting retailers into the departure lounge. This money will go hand in hand with cash from One NorthEast which is going into the infrastructure and providing better access to the airport."

Hugh Lang, airport managing director, said the Peel development would provide everything the public sector cannot fund - such as buildings and land - and provide long-term investment. "We are trying to identify areas of investment so that we can hit the ground running as soon as everything is signed." he said. A spokesman from Peel Airports said: "We totally endorse the statement of the shareholders." The company has promised to refurbish the main terminal building and construct a new parallel taxiway for aircraft serving a cargo depot. It will also work with One NorthEast to create a 400,000 sq ft business park on a 25-acre site, complete with its own access road, and has said it would be happy to offer each of the local authority shareholders a seat on the airport's board.

[Hipennine]

All I can say as a Durham County Council Tax payer of many years, is that history shows whwnever the council has dabbled in anything remotely like a commercial activity, it has ended up as a net cost to the council tax payer (and the same goes for the district Councils that preceded the unitary authority). Elected councillors are (mostly) non-commercial, but they are also supposedly "expertly" advised by well paid officers who are mainly LA servants man and boy, and therefore also lacking in commercial experience.

Peel are just commercially smarter than the LA's generally. It would appear that whoever is currently pulling the strings for the Regional Growth Fund is commercially smarter than Peel.

LA's should stick to focussing on the things they are statutorily required to do - bins, social services, housing, etc. They have let go of the airport for a song, but that is possibly a better financial outcome than if they had carried on.

We are where we are. Move on.

[Northbound A1]

SWBKCB, a very informative post. Good to see the Northern Echo keeps detailed reports.

Hipenine, we may be were we are as you say, but its not a good place to be from the publics point of view.

The public owned 100% of the airport ten years ago, but how much now 11% or more?

Its a disgrace and I dont think it can be down to council officials just not knowing what they are doing? Surely they have legal teams. Out of the 6 local authorities, one of those lawyers must have seen the flaws in giving Peel an initial 75% of DTV for a fraction of its worth? :hmm:

Land worth £30m Given away for £500k, better odds than the lotto :bored:

[Hipennine]

NorthboundA1, yes they have legal teams. The legal teams would have confirmed that the contract was legal or not, but the strategic decision making would have been by the senior councillors involved, and "ably advised" by their chief officers on multi-thousand pound salaries. None of them with any experience of the real commercial world whatsoever.

It was a similar kind of story up the road at NCL, when the senior councillors, no doubt also ably advised, allowed an airport MD and FD to mortgage the airport for a crippling loan, and managed to get themselves a multi-million £ bonus as a result. Said councillors, then wasted more council tax payers £ on legal action against their auditors, claiming that they should have stopped the councillors agreeing to it. The Judge said basically don't be so bleeding stupid, you lot were on the appropriate decision making board, you had the papers, and you signed off on them- don't expect others to take the blame for your own failings.

It is all a disgrace, but that is our democracy for you, so why be surprised when some individuals or organisations take advantage of the weaknesses.

[LGS6753]

Hipennine -

It's certainly democracy, and it's a certain type of democracy. From my viewpoint Darn Sarf, I would expect every one of the County Durham councils to be Labour-controlled.

If I'm right, the councillors will not only have no experience of commercial management, but they will have spent their time trying to criticise and undermine private enterprise. Just as a Labour Government screwed the country, so Labour Councils are screwing their ratepayers by their incompetence.

Perhaps a few more people in Co. Durham should be voting for parties other than Labour! Democracy would be healthier as a result, so would the councils and their taxpayers.

[Northbound A1]

Some Peel news from their own PR dept.

Peel expect 60,000 passengers in one weekend to pass through Liverpool Airport, which is the same amount which go through DTV in 6 months.

Why arent Peel putting the same routes and effort into DTV?

Peel obviously have the airline contacts and determination to make Liverpool a success. Why isnt this happening at DTV?

Busiest Weekend of the Year for LJLA - The Peel Group (http://www.peel.co.uk/news/busiestweekendofyearforljla)

"Friday, 23 August 2013

Liverpool John Lennon Airport (LJLA) (http://www.peel.co.uk/activities/aviation) is preparing for its busiest weekend of the year once again with the August Bank Holiday expected to bring over 60,000 travellers passing through the Airport.
Over 30,000 passengers are expected to depart from the Airport this weekend alone starting today, with the vast majority heading to the sunshine resorts on the Mediterranean. "

Or was it only ever the land Peel wanted in the north east? :=

[Lancelot37]

Well said LGS6753 (http://www.pprune.org/members/72961-lgs6753) Who but Labour Councils would sell something worth £30,000,000 for £500,000. If they were in business they'd go bust in less than a year.

Time has proved that Peel don't want to build the business as an airport. If they did it wouldn't be in the mess that it is in now. They've had years to do something.

Discussion has been going on, on the PPRune site, for years about the subject. Peel is a money rich company. Worth I believe something like £16 billion. They have the money for investment, but not in DTVA. They have proved this. They don't need a Government hand-out as they have the money. If a project is viable get on with it and do it.

OK shoot me down if you wish.

[TSR2]

They don't need a Government hand-out as they have the money. If a project is viable get on with it and do it.

Maybe you have the answer. Perhaps Peel now realise DTV will never be viable as an airport and their cash better invested elsewhere.

[NorthSouth]

LGS6753:If I'm right, the councillors will not only have no experience of commercial management, but they will have spent their time trying to criticise and undermine private enterprise.Yeah you're right, if only Peel had been allowed to get on with their development of DTV unfettered by criticism and not bogged down by the dead hand of handouts from the taxpayer undermining their entrepreneurial spirit.:hmm:

[Lancelot37]

I don't have the answer, but the professionals should have. But that's only if they want to do something.

I notice that there are lots of comments in tonight's Evening Gazette from readers.

What does puzzle me is that I can't remember ever seeing an advert by KLM or DTVA trying to boost their trade to AMS. Many business people who I know have used that route to places all over the world, but non-business friends have not thought of it. Some have used the route since I mentioned it.

[SWBKCB]

Who but Labour Councils would sell something worth £30,000,000 for £500,000. If they were in business they'd go bust in less than a year.

Gosh - let me think, who would sell a public asset at less than its true worth for idealogical reasons? :rolleyes:

Also, Peel might not need Govt handouts, but they'd be stupid to ignore them if they were on offer. Be interesting now to see what they do i.e. is the southside development viable on a purely commercial basis?

I notice that there are lots of comments in tonight's Evening Gazette from readers.

In relation to what - had a quick look and couldn't see anything?

[Lancelot37]

Check the reader's letters.

[davidjohnson6]

Chaps - I know some of you might tell me that if I don't like it I should just b*gger orff but could we try to make the content of this thread slightly less parochial ? There seems to be a lot on here that is just a repeat of the same opinions with little in the way of facts or new info - gets a little boring to read the same thing every week...

[Lancelot37]

Indeed, we'd like to see the airport "take off" and we'd love to see lots of aircraft in and out. That's why it is discussed even though much is negative.

I checked earlier and it seems to be one of the very highly read topics on PPRuNe as 517,913 people have taken the bother to read what is posted.

What we now need is action from Peel or for them to step away and let someone else try, but do you think they'd let it go for the £500,000 that they paid for it? Joke!

[mmeman]

If you have a look at DTV movements, DTVMovements (http://www.dtvmovements.co.uk/) for today, you would see that there are a few aircraft in and out and is exactly the kind of business the airport should be trying to attract while trying to build up passenger flights.

[Lancelot37]

I do check almost daily but it doesn't put enough butter on the bread unfortunately.

[DTVAirport]

Beafer, Liverpool are owned by a different company, Vantage Airport Group, be as it may through their shareholding of a Peel subsidiary, but Peel have allowed VAG full control and have little or no influence in LPL anymore

[Northbound A1]

Didnt know about the losses due to share swaps.
It looks like swings and roundabouts to move money about.
Could it be for tax reasons?
Peel Group news.
The Peel Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peel_Group)

part of the wiki site comments.

"The final addition to the Peel Airports portfolio was Durham Tees Valley Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport), with a 75% stake being bought in 2003 - ownership of the remaining 25% of DTVA was retained by several local councils.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peel_Group#cite_note-peel.co.uk-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peel_Group#cite_note-durhamteesvalleyairport.com-13)

Results were mixed, and The Peel Group began looking for an outside investor for Peel Airports.
In June 2010 it was announced that Vantage Airport Group (formerly Vancouver Airport Services (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_Airport_Services)) had bought a 65% shareholding in Peel Airports, while The Peel Group retained the remaining 35%.
The new management team at Peel Airports quickly began disposing of assets, selling them back to The Peel Group. First to go was City Airport Manchester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Airport_Manchester) in 2011, followed by Durham Tees Valley Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport) in February 2012.
Sale of the loss-making DTVA resulted in a one-off impairment charge of £8.8m, causing Peel Airports' losses to rise from £3.2m to £11.4m.

The same year, Robin Hood Airport made an operating loss of £3.4m (down from £3.7m the previous year) and in December 2012 it was announced that this airport had also been sold back to The Peel Group.

By January 2013, only Liverpool John Lennon Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_John_Lennon_Airport) remained in the ownership of Peel Airports.

[SWBKCB]

Fire safety firm remains committed to North-East airport (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/news/10643257.Fire_safety_firm_remains_committed_to_North_East_ai rport/)

[Mickey Kaye]

And they have also managed to make it unattractive to GA.

I bet the land worth a few bob as a business park mind

[highwideandugly]

Pub talk...new development on the horizon...apparantely a Parachute firm/company are looking for approval to set up business...I kid you not!!

Now KLM would be happy to hold off while the para drop is complete..!!!!!:ugh:

But I suppose its extra revenue?

[North West]

Look at the performance of the UK regional market in general from it's peak in 2007.

Airports that were handling less than 2m at the peak have declined by 40%.
Airports that were handling between 2m - 6m at peak, have declined by 15%
Airports that were handling over 6m, have declined by 7%

The London market has declined by 2%.

Teesside is the worst performer in the 'less than 2m' category (with the exception of Coventry, which closed). Newcastle is the second worst performer in the 2m - 6m category. When you group airports together regionally, the performance reads as

-2% : London / SE
-10%: Yorks & Humberside
-11%: Scotland
-12%: North West
-12%: Northern Ireland
-14%: Midlands
-16%: South West & Wales
-28%: North East

In summary, Teesside performance has mirrored that of pretty much all other 'small' airports, a situation made worse by the fact it exists in a region that has fared disproportionately worse than the market in general.

[tigertanaka]

As a regular user of Teesside Airport (15 trips or so this year) I am used to paying around £300-£600 for flights to Europe via Amsterdam for work (in economy).

Me and the missus were looking for somewhere to go for a weekend in October and for a giggle I searched for Teesside-Amsterdam and got a price of £97 return each including taxes. This was out on Friday back on Sunday with a choice of flight times.

Seems obvious that KLM would offer good deals to Amsterdam at the weekend given the bias of the KLM flight towards business users who are normally flying the other way but I was surprised that there is no publicity of a £97 return weekend flights in the local area.

[Northbound A1]

Peel have a new video out.
All their airports are shown it it. Not sure if they had all the staff line up outside the terminal when it came to passengers using DTV's front door in their bit.
Its certainly a big Empire. Shame there was no investment in DTV like the rest of it.

Video Gallery - The Peel Group (http://www.peel.co.uk/news/video)

[NorthSouth]

All very interesting, but no minutes of meetings and no calendar of upcoming meetings so members of the public can turn up and find out what's going on.

Also, note the first function is listed as "Advising the Airport Director on matters which she may refer to the Committee". The last female director of the airport left in April 2010. Nuff said.

NS

[skyman771]

The last female director of the airport left in April 2010. Nuff said.
Perhaps more should be said ?:E, though say too much, then surely one will risk the wrath of the mods... ;)

[Northbound A1]

Re: Billown Mansion, it has some nice deck chairs on the terrace. Google earth 54.05.30.94" N 4.39.39.00" W
Wonder if Del boy did the chandeliers there, as its had a few film productions in the past.
Browse Locations by Category - Isle of Man Film (http://www.gov.im/ded/iomfilm/locations/BrowseByCategory.aspx?categoryid=8)
Colour me kubrick was filmed there in 2003.
http://www.gov.im/ded/iomfilm/locations/images/DisplayMasterImage.aspx?imageid=111

[Northbound A1]

Not much coming out of DTV or Peel these days. Dont hear much from Peter Nears, I wonder if I should book a ticket to see what he's doing about improving DTV Airport or is he too busy elsewhere?
Liverpool – The Atlantic Gateway – The Future
Wednesday, 16th October 2013
1530hrs to 1900hrs

Liverpool Town Hall
This will be an amazing event; we have SEVEN Board Members form the Atlantic Gateway on a panel to present their joint plans for the future; and then to discuss their individual roles and answer all the questions you have. They have over £14bn of planned investment!!!!
Liverpool ? The Atlantic Gateway ? The Future - Built Environment Networking Ltd (http://www.built-environment-networking.com/event/atlantic-gateway/)

Peter Nears; Strategic Planning Director, Peel Holdings and Board Director for Atlantic Gateway.
Peter joined the Peel Group in 1988.
His responsibilities include the progression of development schemes and the promotion of Group assets within strategic planning and economic policy.
He is a Member of the Royal Town Planning Institute, Fellow of the Institute of Logistics & Transport, Academician of the Academy of Urbanism, Fellow of the Royal Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce and is also a Visiting Professor in the Department of Civic Design, School of Environmental Sciences, University of Liverpool.
He sits on a number of public private Partnership Boards.
He is Chair of Liverpool SuperPort, Member of the Liverpool City Region LEP, Member of the North West Business Leadership Team, Member of the Liverpool South Mayoral Board and a Member of the Atlantic Gateway Partnership Board.
Prior to joining Peel, Peter worked as an Historic Buildings Officer at Durham County Council and Macclesfield Borough Council........

Lots of experience at running an airport like DTV then eh?? :bored:

[SWBKCB]

As its only been announced in the last day or two, give him chance! Doubt we'll hear anything until the planning meeting unless the airport issues something themselves.

Always wondered about this argument, there are some massive wind turbines very near to East Midlands and also Hahn in Germany (and two not far from Newcastle), where as other airports seem to object to anything anywhere near.

[onyxcrowle]

Thisvis another example of councils and reality nevervhaving met.
Dsa has a while load of them already up on nr thorne on the approach to 20.
To the east they are building 37 more.
I wish I had land id sell these energy farms it in a heartbeat hell id let them put one in my garden, Given the 80000 or 100000 payment every year.
Dsa didnt object to those.

[Robert-Ryan]

I know things are possibly the quietest they've ever been in the history of DTVA at the moment, but nevertheless me thinks people are clutching at straws now to keep this thread active.

Really - who actually gives a :mad: about drilling rigs, mansion's, Liverpool or wind turbines???

[Jamesair]

Hopefully the CAA will publish the DTV Aug stats on Mon/Tues plus the two missing ones for NCL.

That might provide a talking point for next week.

[N707ZS]

Robert its not completely quiet things are going on, we just cannot be bothered to talk about it on here anymore.

[highwideandugly]

Amsterdam down,Aberdeen down total airport up..mainly due the odd charter.

[Robert-Ryan]

The 500k price tag has been discussed to death many times, I think the chances of the airport closing to fracking are a million to one and as someone else pointed out, many other airports have wind turbines on their doorstep without them effecting ops.

And if you're suggesting I'm part of Peel you're very much mistaken, I do try/want to support them but they make it very difficult at times and I would certainly not shed a tear were they to leave. Besides, if they did want this thread shut down, I'm sure they would effortlessly be able to do it.

As for your Peter Foster question (the third time you've asked if I recall, and I would have thought there'd be more appropriate persons to ask than those on here), my understanding is that the airport has the utmost respect for Peter given his 40 years loyal service, but sadly he's become an old man with old ideas (I assume you've had a conversation with him? Whenever he talks about airport development it's stuff that's been and gone long ago, such as the Skylink development) and it'll take someone with more, what's the word, influence, to gain a response from Peel.

And also just to re-clarify, the director didn't simply walk-out, but had a more important business meeting to go to.

[Jamesair]

The Aberdeen scheduled service was, in fact, slightly up in August. The previous year included a charter flight.

[Northbound A1]

RRYAN,
That £500k price tag for DTV is a crime, Peel must be laughing.

Regarding your comment about the Peel director leaving the council meeting "And also just to re-clarify, the director didn't simply walk-out, but had a more important business meeting to go to. "

What was more important than talking to the local community, as you seem to have a bit of knowledge about where he was going?

Was it:
1. A prospective caravan owner wanting a parking place?
2. The tea was made?
3. Peel had a meeting with some prospective builders? ;)

[Robert-Ryan]

I can't remember the specifics of the meeting (I know you'll no doubt tell me how convenient that is) but I do remember it being something of significance.

Yes it's important to talk to the local community, but not when it could come at the expense of income being brought into the airport, in which case the Director had good reason to leave.

And yes, the 500k was a crime, a very big one at that.

[SWBKCB]

My post at 2915 explains why the airport was sold cheap - investment was needed, couldn't be afforded by the LA's so the price was kept low on condition that there was a certain level of investment in the airport.

All that is perfectly straightforward, what might be more questionable is whether the expected investment materialised. I've got no idea about that (although I'd want my money back from whoever re-designed the terminal...).

[OldManJoe]

Yawn fecking yawn. Round and round we go.... it's all been said before. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz............

If you're that bothered, go and lobby your local Councillor or MP and ask them to do something about it (if they can be bothered). No fecker on here is going to change what Peel is doing now or in the future. They are a law unto themselves. They've raped the Local Authorities with empty promises.

Most people travel to Leeds, Newcastle or further afield if they want to go anywhere.

Teesside won't go anywhere with passenger flights. At the most, it will expand with ancillary services to aviation. Knock down the terminal and build a fecking big maintenance hangar. At least we'll see aircraft at the airport!!

Lets find out when the next meeting is and go en-mass. Party anyone??

[TSR2]

Here here. Very well said sir.

[Piltdown Man]

What really surprises me about this thread is that it still continues. MME's local catchment population is too small and insufficiently wealthy enough to support what it has, let alone any expansion. Also, because this airport is (geographically) stuck between two airports with larger local populations (LBA & NCL) it will always be smaller unless it can offer something the others lack. And what could that be? Answer that, and its future is secured. I'll tell you in advance it's not capacity.

However, I'll give a couple of suggestions. Firstly, someone should take a trip to Linköping City Airport. It's run by a single team who perform check-in, loading, marshalling, fire-fighting, cleaning, ops control etc. Each person is not only capable of multiple tasks, but actually performs them during a turnaround. Having fewer, more capable, employees reduces operating costs to an acceptable level. Employing more people on minimum wages serves no useful purpose. Secondly, how about changing the way the airport generates income? Dump the development fee and aircraft landing fees and instead make money on car and vehicle entry and parking. Charge concessions a percentage on their gross margin and give free rent. Encourage airlines to operate from MME because they can operate for there for free. Take a leaf from MOL's book and make money from everything else. Business has to be allowed to grow at minimal cost.

In its current form it's dying a slow death.

PM

[N707ZS]

I am with OldManJoe.

[Robert-Ryan]

MME's catchment area is fine, it's been said before and it'll be said again, we had nearly a million passengers eight years ago, those million passengers haven't gone anywhere, they're still here, and if you walk into any town centre within the region, stop people at random, and ask them where they'd prefer to fly from, the answer every time is MME, the vast majority of flights that have been axed from the airport over the years have been full, CAA stats show that, so yield is lacking I hear you say, so increase fares a little bit! An extra tenner isn't going to deter the pax!

[Jamesair]

I'm afraid eight years ago where very different economic times, of course that's not to say the good times could not come back again.

[Robert-Ryan]

I agree Jamesair, but even taking that into account, 500-750,000 pax doesn't feel like too much to ask for.

Although I take with a huge grain of salt what "locals down the pub" have to say, I do hope Beafer is right about MPs monitoring this thread, I've certainly heard in the past that a lot of influential people, including Peel, the press and more, do keep an eye on what's being said on here.

[No-More-Bullschit]

A non-existent marketing department is a big issue, with a perfect example lying in Aer Lingus Regional.

Aside from the announcement they were launching MME-DUB, not a single peep was heard from them. I don't recall hearing radio ads, reading newspapers ads, nothing.

Now they're going into NCL (which is a big enough kick in the teeth on it's own) I'm sick to death of hearing every five minutes about this great new double daily Dublin service for just £29 where you can pre-clear US immigration etc etc.

Normally, I'd be concerned I'd just gave them further advertising with that above paragraph, but their own campaign has been so extensive half of Australia knows about it, so what does it matter!!!

[GrahamK]

DTVAs future is in GA and aircraft recycling. Anything other than that and unfortunately your kidding yourselves

[Northbound A1]

Everyone in GA already knows how the DTV management drove most out with high fees etc. The future is now bright at Fishburn according to a friend with a cessna.
Regarding the rumour about the MP's. I heard they are all waiting to see what Peels next move is before they make any waves.
Re the dublin adverts, Peel are advertising heavily in caravan storage but nothing else?
How much does it cost to run DTV per year?

[SWBKCB]

Things are quiet.

And guess what, the parking firm are based in Sheffield! :suspect: :suspect:

Where's my tin foil hat...

[davidjohnson6]

Overall message - small pockets of good news, but also seeing stagnation compared to strong growth at Newcastle.
Aberdeen - DTV stagnant but Newcastle had a big improvement
Amsterdam - very pronounced shift by KLM customers away from DTV in favour of Newcastle, even after making allowances for Easyjet
Jersey - surprisingly positive, growing well. Route however is thin and very seasonal so don't get too excited.
Palma - pax number decrease possibly because of the move to a less-than-ideal day of the week. NCL showing strong growth to Palma in comparison

DTV had 14,042 pax in August, up 2.4 % on August 2012 - gain equates to 324 pax
DTV rolling year has 163,409 pax
Be cautious on the apparent growth - this seems to be caused by 299 charter pax to/from Hamburg. Not sure why the flight existed, but presumably some sort of one-off exception.

NCL had 527,591 pax in August, up 1.2 % on August 2012 - gain equates to 8,620 pax
NCL rolling year has 4,393,874 pax

In August 2013, for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 37.6 passengers at NCL
As a historical reference, in August 2009 (i.e. post credit crunch), for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 17.1 passengers at NCL

Aberdeen route for August
DTV - 2,771 pax (all scheduled), down 1.6% from 2,815 pax (2,738 scheduled, 77 charter), meaning a loss of 44 passengers. Looking only at scheduled, the route is up 1.2% or a gain of 33 passengers
NCL - 2,136 pax (all scheduled), up 21.6% from 1,757 pax (all scheduled), meaning a gain of 379 passengers
It is concerning that NCL is growing fast on the Aberdeen route while DTV remains stagnant

Jersey seasonal route for August
DTV - 636 pax, up 61.8% from 393 pax, meaning a gain of 243 passengers
NCL - 2,908 pax, up 33% from 2,186 pax, meaning a gain of 722 passengers
There were 4 Saturdays in August 2012 and 5 Saturdays in August 2013 - this would explain quite a lot of the jump in passengers numbers.

Palma route for August
DTV - 1,277 pax, down 11.6% from 1,446 pax meaning a loss of 169 passengers
NCL - 45,540 pax, up 9% from 41,784 pax meaning a gain of 3,756 passengers

Palma analysis:
Palma was on Saturdays in 2012 (4x in August 2012), but now Tuesdays (4x in August 2013). Going from 181 pax in August 2012 to 160 pax per flight in August 2013 may well be caused by going from a leisure-friendly Saturday to a leisure-challenging Tuesday

Amsterdam route for June
DTV - 8,858 pax (8,786 scheduled, 72 charter), down 1.4% from 8,981 (8,938 scheduled, 43 charter) pax meaning a loss of 123 passengers
NCL - 32,146 pax, up 32.6% from 24,242 pax meaning a gain of 7,904 passengers
NCL KLM-only (my estimate) - 27,224 pax, up 10.7% from 24,242 pax meaning a gain of 2,982 passengers
Note - Easyjet began NCL-AMS in Dec 2012, flying 4x weekly in August 2013

Amsterdam analysis:
There were 5 Saturdays in August 2013, but 4 in August 2012
DTV-AMS KLM load factor has fallen from 62.8% to 62.4%
On a Europe-wide basis, Easyjet saw a load factor in August of 92.8%
Easyjet flew NCL-AMS on 17 days in August. Using, a 156-seat A319 with 92.8% load factor (ie average of 140 pax turn up for a flight), we get 4,922 passengers, which falls far short of the NCL-AMS route being up by 7,904 passengers - this tells us KLM are seeing passenger numbers up by 12.3% on the NCL-AMS route, in contrast to DTV-AMS being down 1.7%
Even if we assume Easyjet had a 100% load factor, KLM are still seeing NCL doing 10.7% better year-on-year compared to 1.7% worse at DTV

While Easyjet and KLM have very different products, there is overlap for customers travelling point-to-point between NE England and the Netherlands - this may have led KLM on the NCL route (but probably less so on the DTV route) to lower prices slightly or perhaps improve their product offering to defend market share - thus stimulating growth on NCL-AMS and also sucking some passengers who might have used DTV towards NCL

KLM is seeing a very clear shift in emphasis by the overall passenger base away from MME to NCL, even if Easyjet are seeing 100% load factors on their NCL-AMS route.

[TSR2]

Very good analysis and well researched.

[mmeman]

1 flight to Palma was cancelled in August due to a tech issue and the passengers bussed to Manchester, which accounts for the decrease in the Palma figures.

[P330]

Excellent analysis David, thank you.

Have to say, I am one of the KLM passengers using NCL more. Including a trip last month and 4 planned trips, 4 out of 5 will be from NCL and only one from MME. Why?

Timings - better frequency and connectivity through AMS.
Price - At times, marginally better prices - though not always the case.
CDG - Whilst not a fan of CDG, I can outbound KLM and inbound AF at NCL (or vice versa) which gives me more options.

Whilst this doesn't affect my choice, NCL always run E190's or B737's whilst MME runs the old F70's.

Add the fact of the fee and the airport experience, you can understand why there is a move up North.

[DTVAirport]

Although the steady drop in passengers on the AMS route is alarming and needs addressing asap, a 60%+ load factor is healthy for a business route and still profitable for KLM.

What does concern me is the fact that KLM have recently bought more E190s to replace the F70s, or in other words, a 98-seater aircraft to replace a 79-seater aircraft. Unless DTV can somehow grow the route, I think this is what will eventually kill it as at the moment, I doubt we can make the jump.

[davidjohnson6]

DTVAirport - few questions that I hope you can help with

- I calculated the load factor based on a F70 having 80 seats (even if the middle seat is sometimes left empty in business class). You mentioned it has only 79 seats - what happens to the missing seat ? Happy to change the load factors in my analysis if I've made a mistake. If it really is 79 seats, this should make the load factor look a little better.
- Are the E190s being used to replace the F100s or the F70s, both in the short term and also in the long term ? Could the F70s perhaps be left to run for another 5 years (or even longer) ? Will the F70 replacement definitely be E190s or is a 70-seater order a credible option ?
- I know KLM prefer to do a minimum of triple daily for any route - but is it possible that DTV might go from a triple daily F70 to a en E190 but double daily similiar to Manston ? Yes I know Saturday has only 2 rotations at the moment...

[Jamesair]

The HAMBURG charter figures must be the Eastern weekly charter NCL - DTV - HAMBURG operation. NCL share of the charter was 124 pax.

[jetstar.8]

Have you heard the KLM Pack and Go advert promoting the flights from Newcastle
That will not help DTVA

[davidjohnson6]

Forgive me if there's been a part 2 of the Pack and Go theme, but I thought the marketing campaign was focussed around September last year covering London, Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle and Scotland.
Admittedly smaller KLM airports like Norwich, Humberside, DTV and Cardiff were rather left out to maximise effectiveness against marketing spend

Jamesair - please forgive the ignorance but who's paying Eastern for the Hamburg charter ?

[DTVAirport]

davidjohnson6 - I used Wikipedia to look up the number of seats on a F70, not sure what KLM's actual configuration is but it will be around that mark. The F100s have gone already, replaced by the existing E190s, seems KLM Cityhopper are looking to go to a single aircraft type. I did think they might have bought E170s.

Not sure who's behind the Eastern Hamburg charters, but I've heard (and I think it's been mentioned on here previously) that they're not really of much benefit as the passengers on the flights would otherwise have been on the ABZ and/or AMS, so it's just an extra landing fee.

[jetstar.8]

There has been a Pack and Go radio advert during september this year

[SWBKCB]

Given the increased capacity just up the road where two of the most powerful airlines in Europe are competing, looks like AMS is doing really well! Supports the theory previously posted that the KLM market out of MME is quite a specific one.

Also, if there are 5 Saturdays in 2013, compared to 2012 has the impact of fewer flights been taken into account?

Been reported previously that the Eastern HAM flights were ship crews, so don't know what the impact on other flights is - don't recall seeing any thing posted.

[Jamesair]

David....re the Hamburg flights, the only thing I had heard was that it was connected to ships crews as previously mentioned. It's been going for quite some time now.

[P330]

David...I think I can shed some light on the questions.

KLM's F70s have 80 seats, so I think your calculation is correct.

KLM has just ordered another 6 E190s to replace 7 F70s. This will reduce the F70 numbers to 19 in the fleet. Despite this, there is no official word yet on what the long term F70 replacement will be. If the answer was E190s, I think they would be ordered now - so I'm sure they're figuring out what could really replace an F70. This gives DTVA hope that something more akin to our needs will end up on our route - but I think that is around 4-5 years away yet. The remaining F70s will have a cabin upgrade which suggests no immediate decision is likely on the final 19.

The previous 22 E190s ordered were bought to replace the F100s which have now all left the fleet.

With regard to Saturdays and Sundays, it was only recently that Saturdays had 3 locations and Sundays had 2 as Saturdays 1539/Sundays 1530 was the rotation that was dropped before being reinstigated. Can't remember when that change happened but that may also skew the figures...

With the figures now being so low...such minor details as this have a material effect on the look and feel of the whole thing....

[tigertanaka]

Excellent analysis. I fly from MME around once a fortnight and I choose it because it is only 5 minutes in a taxi from my house rather than drive the 45 minutes to NCL and mess around with parking. I like the fact that security is quick and the lounge is near the departure gate.

I would say on average the first three rows of an F70 are allocated to Business Class meaning 74 seats per flight and a 66% load factor. At first glance this seems on the low side low to me as my recent experience is that flights are pretty full. I tend to fly out late Sunday or on early mornings Mon/Tues/Weds and fly back late on Wed/Thurs/Fri so this means that there must be some pretty empty flights at other points during the week. This s probably why you can fly to AMS on a Friday and back on Sunday (choice of excellent flight times) for only £94 return. I am doing this in a couple of weeks so will report back then.

I will also have a stab at calculating the KLM load factors from NCL and other places for August as a comparison.

[N707ZS]

Would be interesting to know the profit margins between the two airports on the KLM.

[Northbound A1]

Is this man still onboard at DTV as he appears to be very busy elsewhere with all of his non executive posts?

Just wondering as I thought he was the man at the top of DTV Airport but he's nowhere to be seen? Who's steering the ship up here?

Sept 30th news.

Speaker Profile - Robert Hough - Liverpool Chamber of Commerce (http://www.liverpoolchamber.org.uk/article.aspx/show/2141)

[OldManJoe]

Beafer, there seems to be a lot of 'Word in the Village' ****e. If you want a copy, apply for it under the Freedom of Information Act. Maybe your Councillor mate can get it for you!

[highwideandugly]

Hey,give beaver a break...he is only trying to get to the truth of this story.

At the end of the day..what is going on...or not going on...is a cause of concern to all.

Our airport is stagnating and no one seems able to do anything!

We all care in our own way!

[onyxcrowle]

I thought Klm had E170's

[SWBKCB]

You thought wrong! They've got E190's and Fk70's.

[g0lfer]

The Hamburg charter takes project engineers etc for a ship conversion project in a shipyard there. The ship is leaving the yard this month so this flight will cease.

[tigertanaka]

I have done some analysis based on the month of August to see how the load factors at Teeside compare with other Amsterdam routes. This is based on data from the CAA and from schiphol.dutchplanespotters.nl (http://schiphol.dutchplanespotters.nl) where I have taken the actual plane used and applied the relevant seat capacity. Note the figures do differ from David's numbers as i only have details of 169 KLM flights in/out of MME in August.

For a fair comparsion I have grouped the different routes to AMS as follows:

Airports where KLM is the sole operator to AMS
Durham Tees Valley 66%
Aberdeen 86%
Cardiff 76%
Humberside 73%
Manston 50%
Norwich 65%


Airports where KLM and a LCC (Easyjet or Jet2) compete on the AMS route. Assuming that the LCCs have a load factor of 93.8%, the KLM load factors would be:
Bristol 80%
Edinburgh 87%
Glasgow 86%
Leeds Bradford 74%
Manchester 86%
Newcastle 87%


Airports where FlyBe is the sole operator to AMS. In my opinion these are a similar customer market to the KLM Cityhopper routes:
East Midlands 65%
Exeter 70%
Inverness 74%
Southampton 65%


Airports where Easyjet is the sole operator to AMS
Belfast 94%
Liverpool 91%
London Luton 90%
London Southend 89%
London Stansted 90%

Heathrow, Gatwick and London City excluded due to the number of different operators flying to AMS.

My conclusion is that a mid 60% load factor for MME is just about OK but certainly nothing to write home about. Norwich has a similar level but operates 4 turnarounds a day. Manston is a new route but 50% capacity on 2 turnarounds will be disappointing for KLM. Teeside's load factor is, however, on a par with Flybe routes to AMS. Low Cost Carriers clearly have a significantly higher load factor than the likes of KLM.

Finally load factors are only one way of measuring the success of the route, we have no way of knowing the operating costs and passenger revenue from these routes.

[OldManJoe]

YoungJoe, more than one person has already asked for an answer, but those in charge wont say whats in the DTV contract due to commercial concerns.

FOI's arent always the answer unless you have a mate who help? The questions can be ignored.

Have you got a copy of the contract as you sure don't like the subject raised for some reason http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

Over to you youngun http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

No, I don't have a copy. Not sure what makes you think I would have.
The same old questions get trotted out time and time again. If it bothers you that much, ask your local Councillor or MP for the answers. That's what they are there for.

I see it as the local councils couldn't afford to fund the airport so they done a deal with Peel without looking into it too much. The councils have been tied in knots by Peel and as a result have failed in their duties to ensure the promised investment.

Peel are ****e, but the councils are just as bad.

For me, Councillors and MP's are there to look after themselves and don't really give a stuff about anyone else. Put them on performance related pay and see how they cope!!

[Buster the Bear]

Councillors should have visited Luton Town Hall. There the local Government make multi million pound profits from the airport, then spend it on 'Love Luton', Olympic sized swimming pools and other wasteful expenditure!

A town the size of Luton sould not be in such debt with an airport generating 'free' cash!

[MMCMME]

Interesting article in todays Echo.

Durham Tees Valley Airport master plan ready for take off (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10723027.Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_master_plan_ready_for_ta ke_off/)

Seems Peel havnt forgotten about the airport and might actually try and give it a go...

[apaul]

Axing the few remaining charter flights does not seem much of a 'master plan'.

[Northbound A1]

I agree it doesnt, but then it is a Peel master plan.

Peel make an interesting comment about future flights in the Evening Gazette, so the question must have been asked by the reporter.

Durham Tees Valley Airport: Fears over holiday flight cuts - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/durham-tees-valley-airport-fears-6154751)
Quote -
Airport chiefs drawing up a 10-year rescue plan for Durham Tees Valley say "no firm decisions" have been made about the future of holiday flights - fuelling fears more passenger services could be cut.

Majority shareholder Peel Investments has not denied reports that charter flights are under threat - but bosses say they want to keep passenger aviation services, including the international connections that are “so important to the business community”.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Afraid it's pure market forces. Good airport up the road and good airport just down the road. Too many airports in this country. Think it was 2jags prescot that got finningley built too-completely unrequired. Just divides existing traffic making the main regionals struggle.

Sounds like it could be a business park within 5 years reading that.

[davidjohnson6]

tiger - many thanks for your number crunching - puts the DTV route into quite an interesting perspective and makes clear the DTV-AMS route's dependency on high-ish fares and onward connections

[SWBKCB]

Some "interesting" comments on the Northern Echo article - wonder where 'Custer' drinks!

[Robert-Ryan]

So let me get this straight, Peel are considering telling charter carriers to leave, to REDUCE the terminal/airport losses?? The car parking fees / terminal spending of the single weekly Palma flight probably brings in more revenue than an entire week's worth of Aberdeen & Amsterdam flights combined!!

Can someone please explain to me the logic? Seems Peel want an airport, just not a passenger airport.

[EK77WNCL]

Might I ask, what is the rotting metal skeleton of a building next to the railway station? Is that the same one mentioned in the article used for tennis?

Also, there's all those barrack-y like buildings as you drive along to the railway station, I think it's near where the long stay car parks and stuff are (that was locked when we came back from AGP into MME once so we had to get someone because we couldn't get our cars!). Sorry I don't know the layout of MME to well but basically are those buildings still used?

Thanks a lot
Martin

[N707ZS]

The rotting metal skeleton Was originally a hangar which was going to be converted into a hotel and sports centre, it had planning permission for this, so could possibly become something like this again.

The problem was they couldn't afford to upgrade the sewers from a six inch pipe to something suitable.

Those barrack-y like buildings Are a hospital part of it is where Gazza was held last time he had problems up here. Could also be where some of the posters on hear go to the pub.

[NorthSouth]

As I understand it they haven't written the thing yet so "backing" seems a trifle premature. Or maybe they just mean "give me a plan, any plan will do"
NS

[Northbound A1]

Well spotted NorthSouth, it sounds like a case for the
"All say aye rubber stamp" now where's my xmas present.

The main share holder (P) are buying up all of the small plots up on that side of the runway, (north side) which werent included in the original sale.

How many fire staff do they legally need to employ if they reduce the size of the aircraft, or is it to do with pax numbers which states how many are needed?

[skyman771]

George Dunning, leader of Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council, also a DTVA board member, added: “Scaling down the airport may well keep the airport viable and flexible enough to take advantage of any substantial upturn in the commercial flight part of the airport business.

I have read some pretty obscure comments on pprune forums over the years but now frankly I despair !. The idea of viability through limiting services is as zany as any, I would really like to review the financial data / justification. Where on earth did this come from ?
That a reduction of turnover (i.e. services) would lead to an improvement in net revenue, is Peel spin I presume. What it would do is focus the whole viability of DTV on the provision of one critical service to one point, in this case KL.
As such if & when at such point KL eventually give up on DTV then the case for closure would be that much more accademic. This suggests another progressive step towards eventual closure, an event which although detrimental to the region as a whole would not be percieved as such by those at Peel who look towards land development.
This view can also be supported by the reluctance of Peel to allow third party aviation related devopment on the current airport site, presumably as it may in some way get in the way of future plans for the alternate use of the development of the site.
Secondly when I read that those that those local MP's & the like that come out with statements below that are flawed even in basic facts, then it really reflects in reality the limited amount of knowledge & sincerity they actually possess ..Mr Blenkinsop said: DTVA has one of the longest runways in the nation:= with a location literally minutes away from the A1 and the A19 and a main line railway running past, it has serious potential for air freight as a way of taking pressure off of airports like Heathrow and Gatwick which should be obvious to anyone.
Nice rhetoric, otherwise a load of c**p!!:sad:

[davidjohnson6]

Playing devil's advocate...

DTV has scheduled service to 2 destinations year round, 1 weekly summer only and a few weekly charter seasonal. At 165,000 pax per year, excluding offshore islands and remote locations, it has close to the lowest number of passengers of any UK airports. DTV also tries to run fire training and scrapping of old worn-out aircraft. The airport also offers secure caravan storage.

We thus have an airport dabbling in quite a few different businesses but not having any significant size in any of these areas. Typically a company thst succeeds will pick the areas it thinks will do well and focus on them. Passenger service, fire training, aircraft scrapping and secure storage are too many unfocussed areas for a modest company like DTV to be trying. Perhaps better to pick a couple of business areas and focus energies on those and ditch the areas that incur costs and have little prospect of long term growth or profitability.

Charter may have a place in DTV but there is a need to demonstrate the benefits and logic. Perhaps someone could make a clear business case for the various activities at DTV

[SWBKCB]

DJ - From the Northern Echo - main resident businesses:

Cobham - The aerospace company employs about 90 workers at the airport, and maintains air traffic and navigation systems for Heathrow Airport and Falkland Islands' military airbases. It operates Falcon 20s that provide air support to Ministry of Defence training and emulate a range of threats to warships and aircraft. A spokesman told The Northern Echo: “We have no plans to leave the airport because we see it as the base of our Northern operations for the foreseeable future.”
Serco - The firm operates its International Fire Training Centre at the airport, which has been based at the site since 1981. In the last RGF bid, Serco partnered airport bosses on plans for the Southside development, that included a new £7.4m complex featuring training rigs, a virtual reality test centre, and accommodation for trainees. In August, it confirmed it was staying at the airport, despite the RGF snub, and said it wanted to invest in its existing centre.
Sycamore Aviation - Operating from a hangar used by Lancaster Bomber crews in the Second World War, its team of engineers dismantle aircraft and recover spares off for clients around the world. Founded by former Thomas Cook and Jet2 captain, Kevin O'Hare, it has already worked on Boeing 737s and Airbuses. It wanted to move into a purpose-built hangar on land south of the runway to handle jumbo jets. However, airport bosses say those plans could still come to fruition if their masterplan is successful

Presumably the idea of getting rid of charter means that they are losing money on these flights and see no prospect of turning this round (so no prospect of increases in the pipeline). If they are going to still service the AMS and ABZ flights, sounds like they are going to keep the terminal open for these flights, but then close it at all other times (anybody else remember the split terminal concept) - will this really save that much?

Sounds like Peel are saying to the LA's 'we'll keep the AMS service if you let us do what we want'. Time to call their bluff?

[skyman771]

SWBKCB ....Time to call their bluff?
My understanding of such an action is that one actually has " a hand to play!", the way I see it is :- "lose - Lose".
Can't see any real benefit in overhead in the operation of an intermittently open / closed pax terminal.
Seems to me more like "you either have a pax terminal or you don't !" :E

[highwideandugly]

longest in the nation....
Heathrow(2)
Gatwick
Manchester(2)
Prestwick
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Newcastle
Birmingham
EMA
Manston
Belfast
Robin Hood
Cardiff are all longer

DTV longer than
Leeds,Bristol,Aberdeen,Luton Humberside and Liverpool.

So I make it that puts DTV in the lower reaches of commercial airports..lower mid table..a bit like the Boro!!

And I heard its going to need some remedial work soon ..lets see if Peel are prepared to pay for that!

[highwideandugly]

Would like to know what the feeling is amongst these guys.All with good intentions but what support are THEY getting from Peel?

Argos usually have good offers on those plastic shovels leading up to XMAS.

I would suspect that Cobhams,KLM,Eastern,Thomson et al are watching with great interest.And what of next years holiday flights..would you really have the confidence to go ito a travel agent in Yarm and book from an airport whose stated intention(?) is to cancel all holiday flights?

What a joke:mad:

[skyman771]

Guy's it won't work!!

And what of next years holiday flights..would you really have the confidence to go ito a travel agent in Yarm and book from an airport whose stated intention(?) is to cancel all holiday flights?

"IF" this concept were to be adopted, then there will no doubt be an even further detrimental effect to KL's services, as the general public, other than the core habitual business users will lack confidence in reliability, there is also a cross over with those pax who would no longer look to DTV for any service, and as such not even consider KL as an option at all adding further pressure on load factors.
You have to wonder if KL has been appraised of the current proposals that are up for consideration. If so then looking forward, are they actually going to continue to offer DTV as a destination on their route network?:(

[DTVAirport]

Cobham didn't move out last winter. The Friends of DTVA don't go airside for snow clearing duties, they take care of most if not all landside, this frees up more of the airport staff to focus on the more important airside areas.

[davidjohnson6]

The Friends of DTVA don't go airside for snow clearing duties, they take care of most if not all landside, this frees up more of the airport staff to focus on the more important airside areas.

DTVAirport - are you saying that airport staff alone don't have the capacity to clear snow from airside and landside and are in effect reliant on volunteers to do some of the work for them, particularly areas (ie landside) where airport management know the Dept of Transport would be less strict on security procedures ?

[DTVAirport]

Of course they do, it's just with the help of volunteers they can clear a much larger area, as opposed to say, just the vital bits.

[Jamesair]

I fear for DTV's future as a passenger handling airport. Does it still have the trooping flights as well as the other operations mentioned? Soon it might become uneconomic to employ security staff/offer customs services etc for just the AMS flights. Is there much business traffic via executive flights?

[Mickey Kaye]

I've always said it and I will say it again. Peel are a property development company and they will do whatever with the land that will give them the best return. And they will apply for as many government handouts as part of that process.


It wouldn't take much to make Teeside GA friendly but its quite obvious that they haven't even made any effort in that direction either.

[DTVAirport]

That winter a couple of years ago an error was made which caused the large-scale closures, it was a one off.

DTVA are perfectly capable of keeping the airport open during snow, as proved last winter and the ones prior to 2010. When we do close, we're usually not alone and others are also!!

[Northbound A1]

DTV I think the world be watching this winters DTV operations with interest.

One point that has been brought up a number of times on this thread is what was contained in the Peel DTV purchase contract with the councils?

With it being kept so quiet about what was in the document one can only summise that it may have a clause which some ex bosses made money out of the deal?

Before someone thinks such a thing is impossible, I draw your attention to the latest £6m bonus which was paid to the ex newcastle board director under a special contract clause.
Newcastle failed to claw the money back in court.
Newcastle Airport Loses Multi-Million Pound High Court Battle - Sky Tyne and Wear (http://tyneandwear.sky.com/news/article/41810/newcastle-airport-loses-multi-million-pound-high-court-battle)
It did make me wonder?
Quote from the court case -
"Furthermore it adds that the real reason Newcastle Airport suffered loss was because its non-executive directors failed to carry out their obligations to the company."

Have any of the ex DTV directors got holiday homes in the Maldives or has the original DTV sale contract been shredded?

I find it very odd that Peel managed to place the share hand over clause if the councils didnt come up with more money than Peel paid for DTV in the first place?

Can the MP's find out before DTV closes its doors?

[Jamesair]

I think they did subsequently lodge an appeal....I don't know if that has been heard yet.

[SWBKCB]

So what now? If Peel do pull the plug which most people think will happen, what if anything can the minority share holders do about it, anything? or just wring their hands and shake their heads?

To change the use of the land they'd need to get planning permission from ???

[highwideandugly]

Cabby says it all...where are all the investigative journalists?

The whole thing smells and points to one thing. Closure..

New government policies re the housing market are playing right into peels hands,

Build it and they will come....or maybe. Bide your time and riches will be ours!!!

[jensdad]

Looking at a map of the Teesside area, there are plenty of places where houses could be built that are closer to the centres of Stockton, M'boro & Darlo, so I'm not sure it actually is prime building land. Even if it was, the airfield is so large that Peel could flog off large parts of it and still have enough room to run a busy airport (and build a 747-size hangar if needed).
Is the airfield south of the runway still owned by the airport?

[N707ZS]

Why would Peel spend £500, 000 on a hangar if they were going to close the airfield.

[Robert-Ryan]

jensdad - Sunderland Airfield was one of the most successful airfields of its size back in the day, and there was more than one location around Sunderland that was much better suited to a car manufacturing operation, so I don't think location would make a difference.

N707ZS - 500k is nothing to Peel, they have that kind of money to throw away, I don't understand accounting but I think I could be accurate in saying they probably made it a tax write-off?

Peel won't pull the plug on the airport because they can't, for reasons I'm not prepared to go into as it's been discussed to death on here, the terminal however, in my opinion, is doomed

[Robert-Ryan]

Also, looking at that LRW company, I'd say that brochure is significantly out of date.

[Hipennine]

"To change the use of the land they'd need to get planning permission from ???"

Well, yes, from the local planning authority (council), except that:

1/ a housing development would offer substantial council tax income, as would industrial when the new business rate regs come into force.

2/ there would have to be very good valid planning reasons to refuse permission, or risk the expense of a planning appeal, which would certainly be lost if there weren't good planning reasons for refusal.

3/ as a nominally regional facility, any application might be "called-in" by the Sec of State (currently Mr Pickles) for determination by him rather than the councils.

[NorthSouth]

LRW mention DTV passenger figures of a million, which Peel also do on their own company websites so Peel may be providing the passenger information to LRWDTV has never had a million passengers a year. They had just over 900,000 in 2005 and 2006 but otherwise significantly below that and now of course less than 200k.

[skyman771]

Beafer
I think you perhaps omitted the most telling para :-
The message is clear: we will endeavour to keep the airport open but it will require local business, councils’ and the residents’ support.
The key point not stressed is support what ?, In retrospect there would appear to be a clear case that Peel never had any intention, at least on the civil aviation side, of developing DTV. This is supported by the lack of investment and commitment demonstrated by Peel.
A simple analogy, if one were to acquire a shop on the "High Street" requiring investment in the building, stock, marketing & management, but instead do nothing i.e. carry out none of these, and simply open the doors for business. Then then upon noting that no one is coming in to purchase, shout out loud and clear attributing blame everywhere else instead of looking in the mirror......
Obviously a more rational explanation to the above is that they are both property developers who see a much greater return on demolition & rebuilding of the site...........

[SWBKCB]

Peel brought in bmiBaby who then pulled out because they could make more money elsewhere, Peel brought in Globespan who went bust and nobody came in to pick up the pieces - the likely alternatives were established at LBA and NCL, who have now expanded to fill any gap.

Sure Peel know how to develop land - look what they've done at LPL, a better comparison for DTVA than Sheffield that people bang on about (underused airport, plenty of land, major rival just up the road), just at different points in the economic cycle.

Plenty of space at DTVA for development and Peel will probably make more if it is centred around an active airport, but where's the market for flights? The 900k in 2006 have now moved elsewhere and even at those levels the airlines weren't making money (or enough money!)

[SWBKCB]

My understanding is it is a book adjustment to the value of the company, but hopefully somebody who's knowledge of accountancy is a bit more up to date than mine will confirm.

[davidjohnson6]

When a company buys an asset, they will record the value of the asset on their balance sheet as an asset. That asset, like a piece of land, over time can increase or decrease in value. If the company can prove the piece of land increased in value under their ownership it can be recognised as a profit in the annual accounts. Equally a piece of land that declines in value should likely be recorded as a loss in the annual accounts - also known as an impairment charge. If a company legally sells ownership of the piece of land, they must formally calculate the difference between what they thought it was worth and how much they actually received from the new owner.

Impairment charges are typically 'non-cash' items, meaning they are used by companies to allow shareholders to get a fair picture of what's going on with the company even if no cash has actually changed hands.

As an example, suppose you had bought a house in 2007 for £100k at the height of the boom and then spent £50k doing it up but its value in 2009 was just £110k. Even if you still retained ownership of the house, you would have spent £150k to end up with a house worth £110k and so made a loss of £40,000 on your investment of buying a house and the cost of doing it up, even if house ownership had not changed between 2007 and 2009. That loss in value of your house (ie £40k) is the impairment charge.

[OldManJoe]

If they ever did decide to dig up DTVA, they'll have to wait a long time.
What's buried under there won't be allowed to be simply shoveled away. It would take an age to excavate what lies under the South Side!!

I've spoken at length to the guy who buried them!!

[N707ZS]

I have seen a Lancaster turret that was dug up on the South side but also heard every squadron that left the airfield burried stuff over there.

[Richard Taylor]

It's the Daily Express - I'd put the snow vehicles away!! ;)

[Mickey Kaye]

"Why would Peel spend £500, 000 on a hangar if they were going to close the airfield."

They are a property development company and they will develop the land it whatever way gives them the best return. And may guess looking at their past history is that it won't be an airport.

[davidjohnson6]

Cops will provide free 24hr security for Peel for 5 years while based there. Clever move by Peel.

So in future, all passengers going from landside to airside for a flight will be frisked by coppers and the current security staff can be laid off reducing costs even further for the airport ? Brilliant !

[N707ZS]

Sycamore engineers already have hangar one to themselves.

[Robert-Ryan]

beafer/davidjohnson6 - I have no idea where you got that from, I can't see it in the article, but can assure you it's absolute BS! Security will be completely unaffected, the Police Helicopter operation has absolutely nothing to do with airport security

[davidjohnson6]

Robert - my play on beafer's imprecise use of the word 'security'

Beafer has a point in that having Mr Plod hanging around very nearby is generally a good thing for companies - people with local knowledge and a desire to misbehave tend to stay away from the immediate area meaning there's less trouble about.

[skyman771]

Beafer
Peel do the same thing at what's left of Sheffield airport and allow cops to use it as a flymo launch pad,
Beefer, I think you have inadvertently hit on a potentially very valid point i.e. the presence of a police unit does in no way reflect the airport owners intention to continue to operate an airfield.
Following Peel's purchase of Sheffield, then the rest as they from a civil aviation point of view is history, a canny deal indeed for Peel !:E:E

[SWBKCB]

Beafer has a point in that having Mr Plod hanging around very nearby is generally a good thing for companies - people with local knowledge and a desire to misbehave tend to stay away from the immediate area meaning there's less trouble about.

Not always! :E

High-tech police helicopter damaged in Birmingham airport attack - Birmingham Mail (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/high-tech-police-helicopter-damaged-in-birmingham-95242)

[F4TCT]

What sort of stuff is buried under DTV?

Dan

[highwideandugly]

Passengers ?

[Northbound A1]

I'm sure this is one of the crew who I've seen at the airport :E
Dwarf dressed as copper feels short arm of the law as police confiscate baton and handcuffs during stag do stunt in York (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10746331.Dwarf_dressed_as_copper_feels_short_arm_of_the_law_ as_police_confiscate_baton_and_handcuffs_during_stag_do_stun t_in_York/)
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/resources/images/2685914.jpg?type=articlePortrait

[jetstar.8]

Beafer
have you tried your parish council web site

[SWBKCB]

Not a lot of effort gone into keeping that airport watch website up to date, not a reliable source! :rolleyes:

[Robert-Ryan]

It's the same hangar that's been talked about for the last 3-4 years and it's going inbetween hangars 1-2. It's common knowledge around the airport that the maintenance section currently located there are moving back to their old landside location to free up the space.

As for a planning application, it's basically going to be a big prefab shed, it would be insulting to call it a building, and I didn't need any planning permission for the shed I put up in my garden not too long ago!

[LGS6753]

Beafer's post above just shows that local authorities are utterly useless guardians of public money!

[SWBKCB]

If public money is available, and it's obtained legally - what's the problem? That's what schemes like RGF are there for (and remember Peel have failed twice on this one).

What would you do if it was your company and your managers were spending your money when there are public funds available?

[LGS6753]

My argument is not with Peel, it is with the morons in the various Town Halls who seem unaware of their extensive limitations!

[davidjohnson6]

September's provisional stats are out. Pretty much the same story as the last month
Sept 2013:
DTV - 14,577 pax, up 0.5% or gain of 73 pax
NCL - 484,771 pax, down 0.6% or loss of 2,969 pax

Rolling year:
DTV - 163,437 pax
NCL - 4,390,965 pax

Aberdeen:
DTV - 2,978 pax, up 1.2% or gain of 34 pax
NCL - 2,702 pax, up 44.7%, or gain of 835 pax
Note - NCL now has almost the same number of passengers as at DTV

Amsterdam:
DTV - 9,017 pax (extra 68 on charter), down 1.8% or loss of 164 pax
NCL - 31,993 pax, up 28% or gain of 6,992 pax
NCL (KLM only, my estimate) - 26,956 pax, up 7.8% or gain of 1,955 pax
NCL now has 3.5 times as many passengers as DTV on the Amsterdam route

In Sept 2013, Easyjet had a load factor of 89.7% across the network. Assuming this applies on NCL-AMS, Easyjet would have carried 5,037 pax, meaning KLM saw an extra 1,955 pax on NCL-AMS or up 7.8%. If we assume Easyjet had a perfect 100% load factor on NCL-AMS Easyjet would have carried 5,616 seats and KLM an extra 1,376 pax or up 5.5%

Once again, KLM are seeing good growth in passenger numbers on NCL-AMS and the focus of KLM's passengers in the North East is gradually moving in favour of Newcastle and away from DTV.

Palma de Mallorca:
DTV - 1,640 pax, down 11.2% or loss of 207 pax
NCL - 36,437 pax, down 5% or loss of 1,916 pax
It should be noted that unlike previous years, there will be no winter sunshine routes with Thomson from DTV. After 29 Oct, the next flight from DTV to Spain will be in May 2014.

Jersey:
DTV - 269 pax, down 11.2% or loss of 34 pax
NCL - 2,238 pax, up 11.2% or gain of 226 pax
Flights from DTV to Jersey have ended for 2013 and will resume in late May 2014

There's a handful of other small charters, but these really are very minor and I'm inclined to ignore them.

Summary:
We now have full stats up to 30 September, covering all but the very end of the summer and much of the peak season for flying. The story over the summer for passenger flights has been consistent for every single month. Like a grandparent who nurtured you as a child and you loved dearly for many years but who now lies grey-faced in a bed in a hospice still succumbing to the minor infection from months ago that could not be shaken off. DTV's life as a full service passenger airport is now slowly fading away. The best thing to do right now is make the patient comfortable and for the loving family to accept the passage of time.

[SWBKCB]

Very poetic.

However to be maintaining numbers on ABZ (which means that Eastern are making money or they'd have dropped it like a stone) and AMS (when one of the largest airlines in Europe has started competing with your operator just up the road) isn't too bad.

Both operators seem to have a solid base of MME customers who are spending enough to keep them happy.

Peel need to start making the most of the rest of the airport, which should reduce the terminal sides share of the fixed costs. They might then be in a position to attract more services if and when there's an upturn.

[highwideandugly]

As long as Peel are happy to lose money hand over fist then let it roll !! They must have a very happy(or ill informed) band of shareholders?

KLM and Eastern as you say seem to be OK and until or when Peel start squeezing the airport charges then I cant see them pulling out?

2014 looks identical to 2013...still waiting for clarification on the statement re IT flights from here however?