MANCHESTER - 5

[Whitehatter]

VLM's service LPL-LCY hasn't got the kind of catchment it needs for anything like a serious operation. The LCY routes do well with the financial district traffic, a lot of finance bods using it to go to regional offices or to firms based up in Manchester.

None of that sort of setup in Liverpool really...there's also a surprising number of passengers on the MAN route travelling to and from Antwerp. Big communities in both places.



Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251113&page=14

[AUTOGLIDE]

I think this misses the point. Before LPL expanded, the likelihood is that all of those flights would have been from MAN. Therefore MAN has occured a loss of passengers to LPL. LPL may have a lack of connections, but MAN is hardly brilliant in that aspect either.
As for London routes, the domestic (particularly LHR) flights have been decreasing anyway since the west coast mainline work ended and journey times decreased, and to be honest, as someone who has gone down this method, I just cannot be bothered with the security and queues for a poxy flight to LHR. In the time I have queued, waited, been delayed as usual etc, I'm already at Euston on the train. The LHR flights from MAN are still busy is due to the amount of connections made at LHR because the flights don't exist from MAN direct or cost too much and are cheaper via LHR.
LPL may be a one terminal low-cost only one trick pony at the moment, but, the fact that pax who were frequent MAN users are driving further to LPL instead of using MAN shows there is something missing from the offerings at MAN. That is what needs addressing, be nice if that had been done instead of :mad: off the pax even more with T1 arrivals parking charges and horrendous security queues, even at T2 which is hardly a terminal building built before the days of high pax numbers or heavy aviation security.
If MAN wants to regain the momentum, it needs the low cost flights and perceived (or real) convenience LPL is offering, and the routes pax are connecting to via LHR. Until then it's a just a second tier provincial airport (albeit a better than average one)

[Momentary Lapse]

I was going to post in detail but Autoglide has said most of it. I'd just add that if you multiply the statement a few times for the other regional airports starting to snap at MAN's heels (LBA, DSA, BHX, COV etc) then the problem for MAN looks even worse.

I'd also concur that the LON routes issue is a dead duck. MAPLC already expects rail to win that traffic in the longer term. BE may have reduced services from LPL, but what have BA done at MAN? MAPLC built a whole new terminal for them! :D :bored:

When BT was privatised and their monopoly market was opened to competition, they managed to take a profitable business at the forefront of a growing market (mobiles, telecoms, infrastructure etc) and reduce it to a loss-making behemoth. Lesson, anyone?

[Vuelo]

This Manchester vs. Liverpool thing is SO boring now. Can we just move on please?

[pwalhx]

I agree with Vuelo, the point is the region now has 3 succesful airports, manchester, Liverpool and Blackpool and that is good for the North West as a whole.

[chiglet]

I'd just add that if you multiply the statement a few times for the other regional airports starting to snap at MAN's heels (LBA, DSA, BHX, COV etc) then the problem for MAN looks even worse.
Sorry, but just what "Competition" to Manchester do these Airports bring?
DSA "Regional/Charter"....serves a "local" Market... Great :D
LBA "Regional" Airport......serves The local Market...Rather Successfully, I believe :ok:
BHX A very good airport..look at the Domestic/International Mix :ok:
Cov, IMMHI, is a "competitor" to BHX....rather than MAN
I note that you have omitted the other "significant" player....LPL...
That is the Airport which is "Snapping at MANs heels"....LoCo, etc
watp,iktch

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

I bet MAN has lost more to Heathrow because of Fortress London or because of the old bilateral agreements which did not include Manchester as an option

G-I-B

[AUTOGLIDE]

This Manchester vs. Liverpool thing is SO boring now. Can we just move on please?


Yes, of course you can, if you are happy to ignore something that directly affects the employment/job security of staff, and development of MAN. In fact, you could ignore everything negative and pretend everything at MAN is wonderful. You could pretend MAN wasn't overtaken by STN, that the lack of new LH routes is a mirage, that the long running claim's it will be the UK's 2nd or 3rd biggest airport is now a sad joke, that it is not losing customers to rail and other airports. Yes, with this method life is wonderful...
Personally, I would rather see problems for what they are, they can they be resolved rather than pretending they do not exist.

[jongeman]

AUTOGLIDE

Nobody is pretending that everything at MAN is wonderful.
Nobody is pretending that MAN has been overtaken by STN, which serves a completely different region and a different market with vast amounts of inbound tourism. It's possible that passenger throughput has increased at exactly the same rate (if not more) at North Western airport as at South Eastern airports. There's certainly less of a need for people to connect through London airports than there was 20 years ago.
Nobody is particularly concerned that MAN's wish to be the UK's 2nd or 3rd largest airport hasn't happened. If the north of England could produce better yields for airlines, already operating with very tight margins, then maybe MAN would have a better chance of this.
Nobody is under any illusion that MAN now faces competition unprecedented in its history, at Liverpool, Leeds, Doncaster and Blackpool.
Posting incessant diatribes on an internet forum isn't going to help matters, it would be far more productive to address your concerns to people with some influence, and not us, because Manchester threads are starting to make very painful reading.

[zenoracle]

Without wanting to continue this inter airport rivalry, I thought Manchester was designated as a Monopoly Airport like Heathrow and had aspects of its abilty to abuse its monopoly restricted in order that surrounding airport could grow.
This handicap has proved its worth, and now Liverpool,Blackpool and Leeds Bradford have developed not as a result of their own ability but because the playing field was never level.
I'm sure I read somewhere that Manchester requested this Monopoly stutus now be removed as they where no longer in that position.

[Going loco]

Surprised there is any rivalry. I thought entire justifaction for the expansion at Manch over the years has been to provide more local options as an alternative to the South. If now the locals of Leeds, Sheffield, Blackpool and Liverpool are too embracing the fly local option instead of the time and cost associated with getting to MAN, shouldn't that be welcomed?
loco

[zenoracle]

Yes, it was always a double edged sword with Manchester trying its hardest to lobby for greater non London air services, it could not justify then saying it and only it should have them, they had to say the lobby was for all the region airports and to that end, it was most successful.
What it was not allowed to do by law was crush Liverpool (which it could easily have done if allowed to bring its charges below them and outprice them) so Liverpool was allowed to artificially flourish at Manchester expense by law.
The same is not true for Heathrow which cross subsidised Stansted because they are all BAA (for the greater good of BAA) they have created a bigger monopoly, this was not envisaged when Stansted was given the go ahead to be expanded, the passenger numbers where capped at 7m and required to go back through Parliament to increase that figure.
The regional lobby agreed to this assuming that the figure would never get increased, unfortunately and again artificially it was, so it grew and grew, because it undercut all, and what could Manchester do? nothing its hands where tied because it was a regional monopoly airport.

Ironically several years before this Stansted threatened to report Manchester to the European Commission for attempting to attract traffic by undercutting Stansteds landing fees, how they have turned that round.

[Vuelo]

Great news in tonight's Manchester Evening News!

Airport in for the long haul

Exclusive by Kevin Feddy

A HOST of new long-haul scheduled destinations is expected to flash on the departures board at Manchester Airport this year and next as bosses look to the east and west for expansion.

They are hopeful of securing routes to Jeddah, in Saudi Arabia, and to Nairobi this year, and are in talks about flights from 2008 to China, India and parts of the US not currently served directly.

The M.E.N. also understands airport chiefs are in discussion with representatives from Qantas, Air New Zealand, Japan Airlines, South African Airways and Sri Lankan Airlines. At present, those carriers are put off because high fuel costs mean they need to generate more business to make money, and there is still less demand for premium seats to and from Manchester than, say, Heathrow.

That could all change when the Boeing 787 Dreamliner comes into service soon. It is more fuel-efficient than current jets, making it more economical for airlines to operate.

Airport bosses see the long-haul scheduled market enabling Manchester to differentiate itself from rivals such as Liverpool John Lennon and Birmingham and position itself as the country's leading regional gateway.

Saudia Airlines is likely to operate two services a week to Jeddah, via Geneva, while hopes are high that Kenya Airways will put on three weekly services to Nairobi, via Paris.

Negotiations are underway with four airlines in China about services to Beijing or Shanghai as the country undergoes rapid economic expansion, while India is also in Manchester's sights.

Resumption

Air India ran services to Bombay for several years, but there is demand for a resumption of links to the north west.

Four carriers are in talks about launching flights to Mumbai, Delhi, Hyderabad and Chennai next year.

Across the Atlantic, Manchester Airport narrowly missed out on a Northwest Airlines service to Detroit last year, but the carrier is looking to expand in the UK and could revive its plans, while United Airlines is looking at the possibility of flights to Los Angeles or San Francisco.

Meanwhile, operators on transAtlantic routes want to increase capacity and frequency as are those flying to Bangladesh, Iran and Libya.

Around 20m people live within a two hours of Manchester Airport, but hundreds of thousands of business and leisure passengers from the region must travel to many long-haul destinations via London or European cities, a trend that bosses are anxious to halt.

Aidan Mooney, the airport's head of network development, said: "We are expecting to see very positive growth in 2007 and beyond, particularly in the long-haul sector.

"A large number of international airlines understand the potential of Manchester Airport as the gateway to northern England.

"Over the next few years, we have a real confidence that our passengers' long-haul aspirations will be met with a raft of new services to new destinations."

[initial]

Id take the MEN article with a pinch of salt.
They put a similar article in 18 months ago mentioning Thai, Cathay plus many of the airlines mentioned in this article. They came to nothing so I will only believe this when I see the aircraft at MAN. Qantas, JAL and SAA are just airport pipedreams. The MEN obviously has nothing better to write about.

[Bagso]

Sorry to be a sceptic but hands up who I read the same headline on the M.E.N 20 years ago...!

"Manchester Gateway To The World......" it proundly boasted.

Well made some progress but sorry, still waiting in this corner of England. !

Also note the wording in the PR release, "Regional", "Northern", even comparisons with Liverpool.

Liverpool has been expoited because Manchester was undertandably reliant on BA, AF. LH etc and always believed in the BA spin that they eventually develop Manchester...it never happended !

Manchester never envisaged the impact of locost, BUT quoting comparions in a press release ......my god MAN have we sunk that low !

And another thing Marketing Dept - Please Please please start using words like international, cosmopolitan and major gateway.....

Manchester is now a really happening place , unlike Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham etc it looks and indeed feels like a microcosm of London... ...although I say that having noted the best bits of London !

It's about time the airport managment believed it themselves !

[spannersatcx]

In answer to Scottie Dogs' question here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3078347&postcount=260)

There has just been an announcement

Effective February 1, Dragonair's 11 weekly freighter services to Europe and the Middle East will be operated under the "CX" call sign through a wet-lease arrangement with Cathay Pacific.

[TURIN]

If the CC do strike next week, will the only BA longhaul service outside of London be affected?

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

TURIN

No - it's a BaCon service and it won't be affected. Could be very busy as a result.

[EI-BUD]

Great information provided on Long Haul @ Manchester.

It mention Qantas. They have said that they wont return to MAN . It was actually Alan Joyce of Jetstar who said QF wont do MAN, but instead when Jetstar get their 787s they will serve MAN as a matter of priority.

Jetstar will serve many destinations that QF dropped as marginal and Jetstar can do profitably with Lower costs!

Looking forward to Jetstar and the 787 !!!

[steve platt]

Definately confirmed as starting long haul flights in june are Saudia with 777 twice weekly mon and fri i think coming via geneva. Also looking v likely are bellview 7 times weekly to lagos!! And 50 50 at the moment on kenyan with 767. Looking good at last.

[Adola69]

Heard today that Austrian are about to hand back their slot requests for the proposed 3 x daily to Vienna. It always was a bit of a no hoper,- from zero to three a day, were they MAD? :confused:
Also, and straight in the face of the M.E.N. Announcement a couple of days ago, is that Kenyan Airways have cancelled their request for slots on the proposed Man - Paris - Nairobi service. I wonder what else the M.E.N. have got wrong?? :{ :rolleyes:

[Momentary Lapse]

I note that you have omitted the other "significant" player....LPL... That's why I used the word "other" - implying LPL was already in the list. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The MEN press release - well we've never seen one of those, beefing up a fantasy schedule, have we? Well, not since this time last year anyway.

Fact is, the place is expensive, dirty, complicated, congested, badly laid out due to piecemeal development, and badly managed, so any clean-sheet, green-field low-cost airport is going to do well against it as the customers (remember them, MAN?) use all their skills and tools to find the best airport that suits them, even if it means travelling a bit further.

[Scottie Dog]

Heard today that Austrian are about to hand back their slot requests for the proposed 3 x daily to Vienna. It always was a bit of a no hoper,- from zero to three a day, were they MAD? :confused:
Also, and straight in the face of the M.E.N. Announcement a couple of days ago, is that Kenyan Airways have cancelled their request for slots on the proposed Man - Paris - Nairobi service. I wonder what else the M.E.N. have got wrong?? :{ :rolleyes:

Yes, that's what I hear as well - slots have been returned.

Can also confirm that the OS have been released.

It was always interesting over the years to see how BD use to regularly apply for multi-flights per day to Toulouse and then never use them. Of course as you know they are now coming off the route completely. What will they do with Brussels?

Well less than a week before the slot return deadline and it will be very interesting to see what else (if anything) is returned.

[Scottie Dog]

I trust the mods will permit this bit of 'cut and paste' as it gives an indication of the planned development work scheduled for the near future. :)
"Ongoing Development
With traffic forecast to double to circa 42 million passengers per annum by 2015, we recognise the need to accommodate this demand in the most economic manner.
Terminals Immigration Hall upgrade
This is a project which is being rolled-out across all three terminals, but in the first instance at T1 and T2. This forms part of the renewal process and replacing of old equiptment across the whole of the arrivals process. The first phase of this project will involve introducing new immigration desks, flooring and screens within the immigration halls.
Terminal 1 Retail Project
This exciting multi-million pound project will totally transform the retail offering within Terminal 1, whilst providing a new purpose built main security check-point. The project will deliver an enhanced food and beverage offer located above the existing departures lounge and create an expanded duty-free and retail experience bringing the majority of shops into an airside location by making the T1 concourse airside. An new expanded security facility with space for up to 14 x-rays will be created on a new floor above the ground level check-in.
Terminal 1 Pier C Re-flooring
This project to be delivered Winter 06/07 will replace the carpet on Pier C with new flooring, so enhancing the customer experience.
Terminal 3 Baggage Sortation Enhancements
This multi-phased project will be delivered over the next two years to improve outbound baggage sortation infrastructure and in so doing provide a more robust system of delivering baggage from check-in to baggage make-up. The project involves linking currently separate T3 baggage sortation systems together and a host of other infrastructure changes aimed at delivering greater capacity and reliability to the system. In tandem the number of CUSS check-in machines will be increased by adding CUSS machines at T3 landside arrivals. Conveniently situated adjacent to the main drop-off zone, this facility will feature new CUSS units, a new bag drop desk and collector-belt into the baggage sortation system."

[Adola69]

:confused: I think "Cut & Paste" apptly describes these innovative ideas of MA's management team to help the Airport handle 40m + passengers !!?
Why does it have to be accomadated in the 'Most economic' manner'? Yes economic consdierations have to be taken into account, but once again it appears that its the 'Strap a Portakabin on and that'll cure all the problems' approach to terminal capacity.
Come on MA, how about building a new building, or due to economics, extend PROPERLY the buildings you have i.e. Terminal 2 and Terminal 3. (Terminal 1 is no-hoper - it's got more levels than a quarry, and about as much water in it when it rains!)
However I am glad to hear that the many shades of ****e patchwork that they refer to as a carpet in Pier C is being replaced. Just taking it up and leaving a concrete floor, would enhance the customers experience and also the staff that work there, IMHO.:oh:
Next step replace the Patchwork taxiway system - more iron plates than iron plate making factory:rolleyes:

[Scottie Dog]

Next step replace the Patchwork taxiway system - more iron plates than iron plate making factory:rolleyes:

Does the work that has been undertaken for the last few months not go some way to remedying the problem?

[Manchester Exile]

"circa 42 million passengers by 2015..."

It saddens me to say that I just cannot see passenger throughput being anywhere near that level. They need to add 19 million passengers a year within 8 years - no chance. I think they'll be lucky to hit 30 million by 2015.

I now live in Sydney, but pass through Manchester about once or twice per year - normally through T3 on the BA LHR service, but occasionally T1. I have to say that both terminals are fairly terrible when compared to other major airports that I pass through. It's not a good first impression for visitors to Manchester. Twenty years ago when Gil was running the show, I was extremely proud of my airport, but sadly not any longer.

Manchester Exile

[Adola69]

Does the work that has been undertaken for the last few months not go some way to remedying the problem?
Scottie, have you seen how much there is still to do? It's a loosing battle I'm afraid due to the past neglect that occurred on a large scale. To answer your question, "it has a little", but a soon as one piece is repaired another somewhere deteriorates faster. Also have you seen how long it takes to repair one piece of this system? Months pass by with the same old work going on. Didn't they completely relay a runway at Atlanta recently in a month and half, by working around the clock. Our lot seem to packup when it gets dark, which in winter doesn't give much of a working day! Taxiway Alpha is in a really bad way opposite the AVP and down to link AE. What needs to be done is to drive a new taxiway straight through the AVP parallel to the present one, for the whole length, to the Alpha link at 06L. Alas it appears there is not the will or forsight within MA to do this, as it's not a revenue earner!!
Have you ever seen such a mishmash in the parking of light aircraft and Executive jets? Taton parking area - ****e, Rompa area - ****e again, NEA far far too small - grass parking area WHAT A JOKE !!! Still I think that sums up the present leadership and has done for some considerable time:ugh:

[Vuelo]

KQ have definitely scrapped their plans for a Nairobi service and have returned their slots, along with Austrian Airlines.

Air Blue are apparently looking at either A330 direct services if they can get the aircraft, or if not then have heard they are looking at Manchester - Ankara - Islamabad with A321s with possible 5th freedom between Ankara and MAN.

[roverman]

I'm afraid that it has just been confirmed that Kenya Airways have pulled their MAN slots for this Summer, at least. No safari.

[Bagso]

Anyone noticed that there are some great offer's now on at the rather desperate great BA giveaway !

well there are if you you live within 30 miles of London...that is !

Put in Manchester and select North America or Europe and every single offer take you via LHR or LGW !

They really are a shoddy P**s P**r oufit !

[Scottie Dog]

On sale through the GDS is SV121/122 Jeddah/Manchester.

Flight arrives 1130 and departs 1400 Monday/Friday.

Good news.

Scottie Dog

[john11]

great,does it bit stop at GVA.
also will that be a B777?

[spannersatcx]

also will that be a B777?

yes

[Scottie Dog]

Looks as if the 'roadworks' are scheduled to continue for quite sometime.

Taxiway Delta now closed around Stopbar D8. Stands 205-208C all closed and 231-233. Also taxiway Papa closed. Work continues until 30th April.

As one controller has said, that makes Terminal 2 a heck of a big cul-de-sac. :{

Scottie Dog

[Vuelo]

Globespan announce twice weekly service to Johannesburg, starting November 2007. Flights already on sale.

[Lite]

Could somebody tell me how the CUSS machines work at Manchester? We had them installed a few months ago at EMA, as apparently they were surplus to the requirements of MAN, and they're gradually being used more often. The area of contention is the handling agents. At EMA, Servisair are expected to provide a bag drop, for these machines, despite not wanting to use them, and it appearing the same way for the airlines. Do customer airlines/handling agents pay for them at MAN? Also who staffs them? At the moment the airport are using information desk staff at EMA for the CUSS machines.

[daynehold]

Having been a life long fan of Manchester Airport (if I can't fly from MAN" I'm not going") I am both saddened and embarrassed :\ to admit that the place looks faded. I recently flew out of Birmingham and was more than impressed by the modern terminal facilities although, even at a peak times the traffic flow was noticeably less than MAN. Despite local regional competion (not to mention Whitehall bureaucracy) Manchester still has huge potential but it may fail to attract the travelling public unless it is committed to a significant investment in vastly improved terminals.

[Sir George Cayley]

Geoffrey Muirhead CBE


Nuff said!


Sir George Cayley

[Scottie Dog]

Bmi had proposed to operate a 3 times daily service to Brussels, but they have now returned the slots. Does that remind you of the Toulouse slots from over the last few years - all talk and no action?
:ugh:

[airhumberside]

Perhaps bmi were hoping Flybe would give the route up when they took over BA Connect, however with the takeover delayed and BA Connect probably operating the route this summer, bmi have decided not to start the route?

[Vuelo]

I see SN are still holding on to a slot which shows a 0540 arrival from BRU....wonder why they are hanging on to that?

As regards BD, they might regret that decision, considering the transfer possibilities of J class pax from BRU via MAN on to their transatlantic network.

[TechProblem]

Looks like work will start on changing the mytravel checkin area in March (well above it) into the new secuirty point, also heard today that the arrivals meeting point will be revamped very soon to.

[Vuelo]

So remind me again how passengers will get from the station to T3 once the new security area is up and running?

[TechProblem]

I think, although i dont know, there will be a new walk way included in the works from behind travelex to the walk way where the staff secuirty point is, but not that far down more towards T3.

[Manchester Exile]

The CAA provisional figures for January are out, and more bad news for Ringway. The figure is 1,328,494 which is a fall of 0.3% from the previous January. The rolling 12-month figure is 22,121,150 a rise of 0.2%.
Meanwhile, down the road at Liverpool, the figures are much more encouraging. January saw 363,313 passengers, a 13.9% rise. The rolling 12 month total was 5,006,802 which is an increase of 11.4%.
40 million passengers at Manchester by 2015? They're dreaming! There are clearly plenty of people in the North West of England who are willing to fly, but increasingly they are turning to Liverpool instead of Manchester.

[Ian Brooks]

I think you will find that the drop in pax was mainly due to weather and the planned strike by BA ( which I know didn`t happen) but by then most people had either cancelled trips to London or onwards or made alternative arrangements, hence the reason the domestic pax are down 7% or so
So I don`t think it is all gloom and doom

Ian

PS when BA cancelles all flights to Heathrow for a day you take a big hit strait away

[Momentary Lapse]

So what was the weather like last January? Not much different to this year, as I remember. And probably not much different 20 miles to the west down the M62 either.

[lplsprog]

Plus the LPL runway is closed at night which has diverted some flights (to MAN possibly!) which it didn't have last year.

[chiglet]

MAN has had the "occasional" div, ex LPL......not even 1 per night.
watp,iktch

[Ian Brooks]

I don1t remember Manchester losing many flights last winter because of weather, but there were several days when large numbers of dometic flights were cancelled

Ian

[Momentary Lapse]

My point exactly. Every January there are bad days when traffic is lost due to the weather. This year was no different. So using weather as an excuse for poor traffic figures is bogus, and the last resort for those still clutching at a false reality.

The truth is that MAN is no longer growing because the competing airports have reached critical mass, and commercial and operational credibility, with the airlines, not to mention better customer service and "experience" to the passengers, so between them they are now able to grow viably and profitably at MAN's expense.

MAN is now a mature airport, and should concentrate its investment on improving service levels to impress and retain its existing passengers, rather than this tiresome, endless, dash for growth at the expense of poor service and annoying its neighbours. Then it might deserve and increase the profit per pax it currently earns, rather than only gaining increased profit from increasing passenger volumes.

[Ian Brooks]

Just noticed didn`t make it very clear,should have read " large number of flights cancelled this year" i:e Fog in December BA cancelled all dometic flights to MAN for 3 days and also when very windy BA did the same for a day so that totals 22 to from LHR a day, somewhere between 2000/3500 pax per day on the shuttle alone which equates to about 1% of monthly domestic pax per day
The other major problem was the very late cancellation of the strike which if I remember right was last 3 days of Jan which must have had a very large effect on the flights to London. I will have a look at the CAA figures when they are published for the domestic flights and make a few comparisons

Ian

[FlyZB]

Couldn't find this information anywhere else on the forum.

A PIA 777-200 (AP-BGY) bound for JFK and a Flybe Dash-8 (G-JEDR) were involved in a minor collision just after midday. Apparently the starboard wing of the PK aircraft clipped the rudder of the Flybe aircraft as it taxied out to runway 24R. A lot of fuss regarding this was made in Terminal 2 this afternoon amongst airport and airline officials and rumours have spread that the PK crew have since been impounded. Both aircraft were parked up on the far side of the airfield close to the cargo centre when I left the staff car park late this evening.

Does anyone have any further information to add?

[Vuelo]

Anyone know if ZB are to announce some more routes ex MAN in the near future? Their ad campaign in the local media seems to imply that they are...

[FlyZB]

There were mutterings on another airline forum regarding this about a month back but so far nothing has materialised. My guess would be that any new routes will be announced for the winter schedule now, as it is getting a little late to announce new routes starting this summer. Also it's coming up to the time that ZB usually put their winter seats on sale now, so I reckon any announcements will tie in with that.

I have yet to see this ad campaign. In what way did it imply they would be expanding from MAN, Vuelo?

[Ringwayman]

It's going to be up to 12 more days before the Flybe/BACon deal goes through

[symphonyangel]

Does anyone know how many pax Manchester has through each terminal in a year? I suspect T1 is busiest followed by T3. Also comparing summer and winter, T3 is probably flatter all year round whereas T2 is presumably busier in the summer?
My hunch is there is spare capacity mostly in T2 in the winter but i may be wrong?

[Ian Brooks]

T1 for year 9, 560, 598
T2 for year 7, 559, 148
T3 for year 4, 971, 984

It looks fairly even for the year for each terminal but I will have a closer look for you

Ian

[jongeman]

There is loads of spare capacity at T2 during the afternoons and evenings, but its gates are generally full in the mornings with long-haul. T2 can be very quiet on winter evenings, with just KL, AF and maybe KM due in and out. It wouldn't be such a bad idea to transfer a larger T1 user over to T2, but there'd be a gate problem until about midday.

I thought they were supposed to be extending T2 towards the M56 westwards, but that seems to have gone very quiet too.

[Momentary Lapse]

No point extending it if there's no traffic to put in it. At the last count the cost was way too high, so mgmt pulled it.

They can fit way more pax in there if they can get them in in the afternoons. No point building for peak traffic if it's too empty in the off-peak.

[Ian Brooks]

I think the morning and to a lesser extent evening rush effect all terminals
T3 was bursting at the seems the other day ramp wise with long haul and Heathrow shuttle flights filling most of the large stands

I`m sure when the Flybe/BAcon situation is sorted the whole parking thing will be looked at and changed as neccesary, but it looks a very difficult task
as when you look at how many wide body aircraft are in between 06.00 and 12:00 it can look very full yet by 15:00 nothing, having said that Heathrow has the same problem as T3 was deserted when I was down there mid afternoon

Ian

[Scottie Dog]

"Just noticed didn`t make it very clear,should have read " large number of flights cancelled this year" i:e Fog in December BA cancelled all dometic flights to MAN for 3 days and also when very windy BA did the same for a day so that totals 22 to from LHR a day, somewhere between 2000/3500 pax per day on the shuttle alone which equates to about 1% of monthly domestic pax per day
The other major problem was the very late cancellation of the strike which if I remember right was last 3 days of Jan which must have had a very large effect on the flights to London. I will have a look at the CAA figures when they are published for the domestic flights and make a few comparisons"

Ian, since you have not come back with the CAA figures, but I take the liberty of assisting?

January passengers on the Heathrow route were down by over 19pc at 81925 - that is a loss of 20,396 over the previous year. This is the continuation of a trend that has happened for many months, in fact the 2005/6 figures for January were also down by 10pc from 114,638.

Continuing on the down side have been large loses on Edinburgh (loss of Jet2), Inverness (start or Ryanair from LPL), Bristol and Plymouth routes (Air Southwest change of routing), however it is good to see gains on the following routes:

Aberdeen - +12.25pc, 10,372
Belfast City - +32.15pc, 17,959
Belfast Intl - +17.48pc, 14,427
Glasgow - +5.07pc, 12,887
London City - +5.17pc, 9,038
Norwich - +171.683pc, 3,953 - well done flybe!!
Southampton - +5.4967pc, 14,260

So as can be seen it is not all doom and gloom. Yes, the main domestic route has been hit badly by the improvement of the service offered by Virgin Rail, but just look at VLM who have taken a knock on the Liverpool to London City route and are down 51pc to 2,547.

Sorry if there are a lot of figures and, yes, Manchester does need to pull it's finger out in regards to certain items which have already been discussed, but please keep everything in perspective.


Scottie Dog

[Vuelo]

I don't think MAN has too much to worry about. I would envisage in the next year or so we'll see a twice daily QR, EY and even a return to daily for SQ. As regards the new service from SV, I would predict this will do extremely well, judging on what I hear on the bookings front.

Short-haul, no need to worry. Jet2 are obviously very firmly established now and likely to expand further, Thomsonfl are doing well along with Monarch Sched too. I think we can forget WW, they are obviously content with what they have and seem to have no further interest in expanding at MAN.

Out of interest, when does the contract EZY have with LPL come up for renewal?

[Mouser]

A 20 year contract was signed in 2001, so you may have to wait a little longer.

[Vuelo]

I can't imagine EZY had it in any contract that they couldn't operate from MAN or any other northwest airport as well as LPL.

[Mouser]

Don't know was'nt there when it was signed.

[Ringwayman]

I do believe there is "exclusivity" in the easyJet/LPL contract but it may be a silly thing to say but contracts have never, ever been broken have they?
-------

VLM have announced a 9th London City service starting March with retimings of all services - there are now to be 4 depatures to LCY before 8.30am (and they still show 12 return weekday services when "booking" them in July.)

[Mouser]

A 20 year contract was signed in 2001.

[TURIN]

I don't think MAN has too much to worry about. I would envisage in the next year or so we'll see a twice daily QR, EY and even a return to daily for SQ. As regards the new service from SV, I would predict this will do extremely well, judging on what I hear on the bookings front.


SQ going back to daily in October, possibly wth 777-300 but not confirmed.

QR were supposed to be going to 10 per week last year but it never happend. Any idea why?

EY possibly changing to a larger 777. Not sure about a second daily.

:ok:

[Ringwayman]

Not heard anything on the QR front for 10 weekly last year! They only went from 4 weekly to 5 weekly a year ago, with the daily services beginning March. I would have thought they wanted to see a daily service do well before either upping frequency or increasing capacity.

[TCX_757]

"I thought they were supposed to be extending T2 towards the M56 westwards"

Instead of extending westwards, prehaps a better investment into T2 would be to improve the current standard of the terminal. At the moment Terminal 2 is fairly scruffy and barely seems to have been changed from the mid 1990's. At peak time there probably isn't enough airside seating for a fraction of the passengers that are there. This probably due to the ever-expanding 'alpha airport shopping' which seems to swamp the area that was once seating.

[Vuelo]

Looks like virtually nothing will be spent on T2 until after the massive T1/3 revamp, so looking at 2009 at the earliest I should say.

[TURIN]

PIA increasing their flights to 27 a week from March.

All B777s.

Two more Houston rotations and an Islamabad. :ok:

[Momentary Lapse]

"Looks like virtually nothing will be spent on T2 until after the massive T1/3 revamp, so looking at 2009 at the earliest I should say."

Investment in T2 has been on hold for the last few years ever since T2 phase 2 was floated. It's a shame for the team there that they'll have to wait even longer for more security capacity, more airside seating, more check in on the right level, etc. etc.

:ugh: :ugh:
:ugh: :ugh:

[BYALPHAINDIA]

And T2 can be the busiest somedays especially Saturday Mornings 8 - 12pm, It really does take the hammer and strain in Summer.

I was surprised that when T2 was constructed they didn't build a 3rd level
with extra PAX seating, and the like mixed in.

Personally I prefer T2, And it does look dated back to the 1990's.

I like the Raddisson thou.

Regards.;)

[FlyZB]

All the focus on T2 at the minute is converting landside to airside, similar to the project in T1. This will be where the money is spent before any other expansion is considered. Plans are being put forward as we speak, with the possibility of the works starting this September ready for completion before the start of next summer.

This will see security being moved upstairs to where the Atlantic Suite currently is, with the current landside concourse becoming airside. I've also heard that Alpha want to move their duty free shop into the area currently occupied by security, thus giving them a larger outlet and freeing up space around Gate 210.

The specifics of this project are still be to ironed out but it is extremely likely to go ahead, the only real question being when. I think September is a little ambitious. I'd say around this time next year seems more realistic, ready for completion by Summer 2009.

[FlyZB]

New route announced by ZB today. Murcia 5 x weekly starts Feb 2008. Not over imaginative but nice to see Monarch expanding from their number one base :ok:

[jet2_at_blk]

As of 7th July 2007, Manchester Airport's runway assignments will be changed in relation to the Magnetic Compass bearings. The current headings for the runways are 054° and 234° with assignments 06L/24R and 06R/24L respectively (11/1/07). The new runway changes will mean the new assignments will be 05L/23R and 05R/23L respectively.

Very interesting!

[jet2_at_blk]

Which LC is the biggest at MAN?

Around the UK we can tell who is the biggest LC at each airport, such as:

LTN - EZY
LGW - EZY
STN - FR
LBA - LS
NCL - EZY
BFS - EZY
LPL - FR
BLK - LS
CWL - WW
BHX - BE
SOU - BE
EXT - BE
EMA - FR
BRS - EZY
BHD - BE

But which is the largest LC carrier at MAN? ZB, LS, BE or WW?

Personally, I think it is:

1. LS
2. ZB
3. WW
4. BE

But I can see BE moving into 2nd or even 1st upon the BACON takeover.

Anybody know the current standings?

Cheers.

[TechProblem]

None of the above, as Thompson Fly is now sort of a low cost airline and the already have the most routes out of manchester.

Although BE will be up there they are on completely different routes to the likes of FR, EZY, LS and ZB.

[jet2_at_blk]

I was reaally meaning core LC airlines.

TOM are HUGE at MAN, but can't you include MON as ZB, if you are including the TOM brand as both scheduled and charter?

LS brag to be the LC airline of MAN, but as you say, if TOM are classed as a LC airline themselves, there are some pokies being told!:}

I know that BE operate different routes to EZY etc, but they are still a LC airline.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, on a completely different note, I have read on the MAN website that they want to have 42 million pax through per annum by 2015, which is fine. But they also want to be the 2nd biggest airport in the UK (after LHR) in the same year. This is due to the extra capacity on the 2nd runway.

They certainly aren't going the right way (now they are 4th from 3rd)! I suppose that when STN reaches 25 million, they cannot expand any further until that expansion plan fiasco is sorted.

Good to see MAN looking up!:D

[TechProblem]

I was reaally meaning core LC airlines.
TOM are HUGE at MAN, but can't you include MON as ZB, if you are including the TOM brand as both scheduled and charter?

Then yes BE and LS will be the biggest in MAN :)
Although not sure on who will carry the most pax, as LS have bigger A/C but BE will op more flights, only time will tell :hmm:

[jet2_at_blk]

Only time will tell :hmm:


It will. And hopefully it is to MAN's benefit!

[jet2_at_blk]

DAL to increase capacity on the ATL route.

They will be increasing the aircraft type from 763 to 764 as part of a transition of 764s from domestic to international. They will be equiped with 42 business class seats!:D This will also include MXP, BCN, MAD, LGW and CDG aswell (from top of head) as the 764s start to cross the pond.

Once flew from ATL-MCO on a 764, exteremly nice aircraft, and reminded me of the T7!

Good news for MAN, lets hope the T7 is back on the cards soon!

Anybody know if the DAL T7 is still stopping on India-US route?

Cheers

[mansp]

The DL still drops in from time to time on the india - US route, normally falls in around 5am, DL have actually just reported a profit for the first time in 8 years, so mabye we might be getting that CVG route they keep talking about. What they do need is another ATL, always overbooked the DL65

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

But is it overbooked in both directions?

And does "overbooked" mean enough for 2 aircraft?

[mansp]

yeah, the loads are good enough for another flight, prob a all y/c 757, dont think they cud fill another 767 mixed class

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Do DAL have ETOPS 757s which could fly to MAN and back in 1 hit?

[TechProblem]

Im still wonder why they dont use there 777's on this route, I went MAN-ATL then ATL-MCO a few years ago and the MAN-ATL was 767, then the ATL-MCO was a 777. :ugh:
Either way good news they will be using a bigger A/C.

Ive also heard that the FlyBe contract is up for grabs in MAN.....:suspect:
Also are BE moving to T3 when BACON stop there flights?

[jet2_at_blk]

I also did the MAN-ATL-MCO route in 2003.

We flew T7 on both routes routes. Why did they reduce the capacity in the first place? Anyway, if the demand is increasing, you never know!:D

[mansp]

DL dropped their T7 into MAN for 2 reasons, the first was reconfiguration on all the fleet, y/c and c/c, the second was money, after 7/11 they had a major change on a lot of routes and now getting it back in making a profit again. Still, better than there MD11 that never went anywhere!!

Flybe is up for grabs at MAN, if anyone knows or heres anything let me know! Swissport cant cope with that contract at such short notice at MAN, have too much on.

[rampman]

mansp

Ringway Handling (which is part of MASS) has won the contract to handle flybe at manchester starting the 28th march . very short notice indeed . flybe will be flying 20 routes by summer out of manchester

:ok: rampman

[mansp]

Thanks mate, you know who is going to be doing check-in/Dispatch?

[rampman]

SAS will be doing the check-in/Dispatch as they have a partnership deal with each other to sub things out to each other

rampman:ok:

[mansp]

sounds good, but what about the ek/swissport deal? thats not done by SAS?

[rampman]

E.K was out of there hands it was all palitical because SAS handle etihad down in london so that was that ....they had to give the dispatch and check-in to swissport

rampman:ok:

[mansp]

That dont make sense, then why not give the EY contract to SAS in MAN, they can do the same, think your right over BE cos s/p just cant handle it.

You had it confirmed, or just a rumour?

[rampman]

FLYBE will be confirmed tomorrow they are going to need a lot of equipment very very fast

rampman:ok:

[mansp]

I hope so mate, and hopefully they will need staff and pay more than S/P!!
A very nice contract whoever gets it, just feel sorry for BACON staff

[jet2_at_blk]

When you say 20 different routes. Do you mean 20 different destinations, or 20 different departures?

Cheers.

[mansp]

it is at least 20 routes, no idea who is checking them in, god help them!
:\

[lexxity]

BA MAN/ABZ comes to an end at the end of this month. Does anyone else know which routes will also be going?

[Ian Brooks]

Geneva, Lyon, Berlin and Madrid
I believe BMI are stepping the Aberdeen route up to 6 a day to help fill the void

Ian

[lexxity]

MAN/ABZ with BD is already 6x daily.
This is the original press if anyone wants to read it.

release. (http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-gb/aboutbmi/presscentre/pressreleases.aspx?year=2006&rid=1018)


I don't see how they can accommodate all the ex BA pax, they are already very busy flights.

[mangrnd1]

Its Manchester Handling & Ringway who will be handling the Flybe's, Not SAS as has been said previously.

[Lord Toofouright]

How marvellous it was to witness yesterday at 13.30p.m. two queues each four deep, of "Customers" either side of Terminal one concourse that spread back up the slope and into the check-in hall, who were waiting to pass through security control. What wonderfull service and care MA were providing these poor souls, who of course had nothing better to do than stand patiently in line,instead of spending money in the ailing retail outlets who are begging for business or relaxing in the deparure lounge. I don't know what the problem was but it looked like the bad old days of the terror alert some six months ago!
No wonder pax are deserting the NW's premier airport for better hassle free service elsewhere, if that is the " Man. Experience" !!
Manchester has slipped to Fourth now behind Stansted for Aircraft movements and one wonders when the Pax figures will follow suit? Not long at this rate.
Bangladesh-Biman withdrawing, PIA down by nearly half the movements due to a/c probs. BA Disconnect/Flybe withdrawing Premier services to Capital Destinations, Norwegian Air Shuttle stopping, Baltic Airlines stopping, China Airlines Cargo withdrawing their proposed service to Shanghai, the list is almost endless. The only bright spots are Great Wall Cargo, Saudia, Jet blue, Jet8 cargo and JD Aviation training flights ( PA-28 & Seneca)!:}
When you look at what has been in the recent past and now gone, it makes one wonder? Then again not really when for example American Airlines lands earlier than scheduled and has to wait on the ground until its scheduled arrival time before it can be accomadated on a gate, the same applying to Singapore, Virgin, PIA, Delta, Continental, My Travel, First Choice, (I could go on!). That's one reason airlines don't hold out any expansion plans, as the ones they operate already are sometimes subject to shambolic ground delays. Yes every major airport in the world sometimes has delays getting to the Gate, but I've yet to experience any at Frankfurt, Paris, Madrid, Amsterdam or Stansted.
It's an ideal time to invest Massively in terminal re-development, if only The Board could have just a modicum of vision about them. (They used to be brilliant at it many years ago, but alas not now.:{ )
I do wish Mr. Muirhead could have been at the back of the security queue yesterday to see what appaling service his company are providing to their customers and businesses wthin the airport. Having been on the receiving end of it he could perhaps grab the bull by the horns and bring Manchester storming back into the ranks of Best of British airports,then he would be able to rate himself along side Gill Thompson and George Harvey - who were true visionarys:ok: At the moment though " visionless ":confused:

[FlyZB]

Isn't this the reason that there's a brand new larger security area being built above MyTravel checkin? Isn't this the reason that there's extra security lanes being put in for this summer once the new airside development upstairs is complete? Things are being done but you can't expect them to happen overnight. Granted, maybe with a bit of foresight and planning the situation could have been eased earlier but to say that they're not doing anything about it is utter nonsense.

Secondly, Saturday afternoons are extremely busy across all three terminals this time of year due to the high number of ski charters in addition to the regular services. This has always been the case. Terminal 2 was also extremely busy at 13.30 yesterday, however the queues had completely disappeared by 14.30 and I'm sure that would have been the case in T1 as well. I'm not using this as an excuse but you've picked one of the busiest peaks of the week to beef up your argument. Had you witnessed the security queue 2 hours either side of this time, it would probably have been a very different story.

I am in full agreement that MA needs to improve this situation but a high volume of flights will always amount to some queuing. That's life!

[spanishflea]

The morning stand situaton is getting rather annoying. Several open stands in T3 but the one that takes the AA 763 from ORD seems to have an ERJ sprawled across it early every morning. From the sound of 24R's post it seems this isnt the only example of poor gate management.

To be fair it does happen everywhere else across the world and must be my biggest pet hate, sitting next to an empty gate, and being told we "have" to go to the one with the aircraft still parked on it.

Thankfully in that situation seat goes into bed mode and I get an extra 15 minutes asleep, so its not all bad!

[jet2_at_blk]

Personally, I have never had any problems concerning MAN themselves (afew airlines though!:})

MAN keeps getting voted, and is viewed as one of the best airports in Britain, and I can't see why if they have the problems everybody is experiencing!

On the pax declining point, MAN need a major Loco like EZY, FR or AB! Yes, BE offer an excellent service from the airport, but their a/c (DH4s) have less than half the seats of an EZY A319 or FR B738! With EZY and FR large at LPL, maybe MAN's only hope AB, unless LS is to grow beyond belief!:O

Maybe flyZOOM can revive MAN? They are starting at LGW this year, maybe MAN next year?

[lexxity]

I don't know what the problem was but it looked like the bad old days of the terror alert some six months ago!

I do, I passed through security last week having removed my shoes, jacket, overcoat and still beeped. The very nice security lady told me that they had new scanners installed that were now doing the 1 in 4 selecting. All well and good but on that day the scanners were set to 3 in 4 and on Friday they were set to every other person. That is why the queues have gone mad again.

T3 gate management is done by BA BTW.

[Lord Toofouright]

Isn't this the reason that there's extra security lanes being put in for this summer once the new airside development upstairs is complete?
Maybe, but seeing that this is not going to happen until the Autumn now, my inferrance of little bit of "Vision" is further supported.
As for the reasoning that two hours either side of the Queue in question, that there wasn't a problem, would be completely lost on the the passengers that were in that queue? Also try explaining that to the businesses in the concourse. " Sorry, we know that Saturday at around 13.00 we have a lot of pax scheduled for departure, but they won't be filling your stores, as they'll be in the queue for security" !!:D The queues may have disappeared by 14.30, but so would have all the revenue!
Today I was greeted in T2, by wholesale bedlam at 13.40, when the queue for the PIA check-in resulted in it stretching back into the walkway between T2. and the rail station, only ending at the second travelator. It was extremely difficult for anyone to either leave T 2 for the rail station, or get into the T 2 from the rail-station. Is that yet another peak to beef up my argument?
The organisational system employed is again shambolic. The "high volume of flights" on this occaision was 2 PIA B777's, - hardly a situation never heard of before?!!:{
You are correct in the statement that "things cannot happen overnight", which is precisely my point, that some visionary thinking three to four years ago, instead of penny pinching and buying up lame duck airports, might have resulted in Manchester still being No. 3 in the country with the pleasurable experience of being a passenger, that it used to be! Instead it's a frustrating mish-mash of terminals, with no apparent easy connectivity. Try getting a baggage trolly from T2 to T3, without waiting endless hours for lifts that are so slow that day turns to night sometimes and you eventually loose the will to live. Great-fun for the world weary pax who just wants to get home, or catch his next connection, be it by Air or by Rail, or by Coach/ car. APPALLING:(

[TechProblem]

PIA is a bad example, even if one passenger is travelling the whole family still come to the airport anyway, Virgin and Travel City don't have the same problem and they use bigger a/c.

Also, SAS may not have had enough desks for 2 T7's, ie lack of staff. To blame the queueing problems on the airport because of PIA is a bit harse, although i do agree the Secuirty problem should have been sorted b4 this summer, not through it...:ugh:

[nav3]

I agree, it is a bit harsh. Man DOES need to get the management working properly to see these problems and get them sorted BEFORE the summer. I can understand the 'Saturday scenario' as I have used PIA from BHX and even on an A310 it is not the 250 that are flying but the 6500 relatives that come to see them off who all insist on staying in the queue to hold hands !! They have the same problem down there at BHX at peak times with a PIA flight and the same with the Turkmenistan and Indian flights.

[FlyZB]

The PK queue yesterday was shambolic but that just sums up the state of the airline right now doesn't it. The reason it was so bad was that PIA reinstated a cancelled flight last minute and didn't give SAS time to have enough staff to check it in. The resulting mess could have been handled better but as TechProblem says, it's not exactly the airports fault.

I guess your perception of MAN can depend entirely on the time you travel through it. For someone who travels regularly through T3 around midday, they'll probably think it's the best airport in the world. Whereas a passenger travelling through T2 between 7 & 9 on a Monday morning is likely to think it's one of the worst.

With better planning 3-4 yrs ago, I agree that the situation would have been improved but peak periods will always occur no matter what airport you travel through and I think it's extremely difficult to compare MAN to other airports without seeing the bigger picture elsewhere.

Only last Monday I queued for around 30 minutes to get through security at Las Palmas airport in Gran Canaria. The airport was relatively busy, there were quite a few departures that afternoon hence a lot of passengers travelling through it and it was inevitable that there would be a backlog. Speaking to a couple in the departure lounge who travel there regularly, they told us that it was always busy on a Monday afternoon due to all the British charters. You could argue the same point that the airport could have done more to prevent queues occuring. But I believe it's something that you just have to accept. On another day or at a different time I probably wouldn't have queued for half as long but you don't see me coming on here slagging off the airport do you.

[agent x]

I heard yesterday that aviance have got the contract to do BA's LHR's, LGW's and the JFK, anyone know anymore?

[Vuelo]

Does anyone know if it is true that Air New Zealand are about to announce a MAN - Hong Kong - Auckland service, three times a week starting in October?

[jimbols6]

Who will be handling AA once BA ground handling stops?

[Dr Illitout]

AA have their own check in staff and dispachers. The other ground services, push backs, loading etc are done by Ringway handling.


Rgds Dr I

[peakp]

As one who was caught up in the terminal 1 queue on Saturday afternoon,the time taken from the outside doors to the xray machines was about 40 minutes.
All the xray machines were in use,and airport staff were up and down the queues checking if anyone was running late for their flight,if they were then they were being directed down the fast lane. Also the rumour was that at some stage earlier, a fire alarm had sounded which compounded the delays.

I arrived at my destination on time, and on my return on Tuesday evening,with only hand baggage,I arrived back in Glossop 1 hour after touching down,which if anybody knows the route is not bad going.
Regards,
PeakP

[mansp]

with regard to the queues at T1 on the 10th March, this was due to a emergency evacuation of the terminal airside, i am not saying MAN airport is perfect, but if anyone knows the answer of how to evacuate a terminal in under 5 min and then not have queues after i reakon every airport in great britain would like the answer to it!!!

[Scottie Dog]

Rumour has it that bmi have got slots for MAN/SOU effective from the end of the month, but nothing announced. Plans apparantly are for 4 x daily. Is this just another bmi pipe-dream?

Apparantly most of the ex- Bacon slots have already been re-allocated so it will be intersting t osee who has taken them - and for which routes.

There must be other routes ex-Bacon slots that are of interest to airlines. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Scottie Dog

[chrism20]

They also have slots for EDI-SOU apparently

[lexxity]

Oh yes please! I need to get to SOU in September! LOL.

Seriously though it would be sensible to put the ERJ on this route.

[lexxity]

Gaz do you know when these routes will be starting? I agree they are odd times, although the two in the middle will be excellent for picking up cruise traffic.

[Vuelo]

Does anyone know if an airline has been identified to take ove the Madrid route abandoned by BA?

[EGCC4284]

Yup 4x daily slots. Some strange flight times though:

Arrive MAN at 0555, depart 0630.
Arrive MAN at 0840, depart 1055.
Arrive MAN at 1310, depart 1340.
Arrive MAN at 1555, depart 1610.

Gaz

Which airline is this

[Tisme]

From what it says further up the thread its bmi.

[chiglet]

Oh dear, BST reared its ugly head...........AGAIN, and then SOME......:D
watp,iktch

[EGCC4284]

He has altered the times by 2 hours and not 1 ?

[Scottie Dog]

BMI are introducing MAN/LYS effective 25th May.

Outward BD343 1030/1315 Mon-Fri + Sun
Inward BD342 1350/1445 Mon-Fri + Sun

PIA

Down to 19 departures per week. 7 Daily flights terminating Manchester 4 New York and 2 Chicago services that will transit Manchester in both directions.

Jett8

Effective 25th April

Inbound JX801 arrive 2225 Wed/Sat SIN/DXB/LUX
Outbound JX802 depart 0700 Thu/Sun LUX/DXB/SIN

Equipment - B742

Scottie Dog

[MAN777]

With all the aviation news focused on Open skies it has been very biased towards LHR (for obvious reasons). I would like to know what peoples thoughts are on the implications for Manchester and other regionals. BMi to ORD and the caribean is obviously at risk (although BMi are insisting the ORD service will continue).

thoughts please

[Whitehatter]

Can't see it making much of a change. BD get a good load on the ORD flight, loads from LHR are by no means guaranteed so would they be mad enough to damage their business by pulling it?

Although with BD you can never tell...

As for Vegas and the fleshpots, Virgin Holidays take a lot of the seats for their Manchester clients. VS might consider it worth their while to ship a crate north and take those routes over if BD want to withdraw. Holiday departures are much more sensitive to origin than business travellers after all, passengers off on their fortnight in the sun don't want to be transiting at Gatwick or Heathrow if they live in Bramhall.

It depends on whether BD can arrange extra lift in the short term, and whether they want to retain their MAN operation as a second string.

[Railgun]

My money is on BMI moving there 330's to LHR, that is all they want and MAN has only been baby sitting them.

[lexxity]

Vegas was always going anyway, it's a high load factor but low yield because the vast majority of pax are on itx tickets. ORD is hopefully staying.

[Vuelo]

I have heard a rumour that a Madrid service may be about to be announced. Possily by...Ryanair?! Is this true?

Anone got anymore on this?

[pb115]

Flight Check says on page1 that Great Wall are starting 3 per wk from the 14Apr07.In the timetable it shows 4 per wk,Sat/Mon 1110/1340, Wed/Thur 1740/2025.
Ringway Reports says Jett8 are starting 2 per wk from the 26Apr07.

So are both starting?? and is there any connection as both are owned by different Singapore companies...........:ok:

[spannersatcx]

Greatwall will be starting but not when you say. A little later.

Does anyone know if it is true that Air New Zealand are about to announce a MAN - Hong Kong - Auckland service, three times a week starting in October?

It is not true.

[Vuelo]

How do you know it is not true? ANZ officials were here at MAN having the full VIP treatment only last month.

[TURIN]

That'll be why then. They've seen how awful it is! :E

[Ian Brooks]

If it is so awful why does it keep winning awards?
I agree it needs money spending on it but don`t most places


Ian

[Scottie Dog]

Please refer to my post (number 134), dated 23rd March, with regards to Jett8. Also worthwhile doing a little research yourself - like looking on their website and seeing that the timetable is published there!! :rolleyes:

Scottie Dog

[spannersatcx]

How do you know it is not true? ANZ officials were here at MAN having the full VIP treatment only last month.

Because we asked them and they said no.:eek:

[Scottie Dog]

Just had email from AirBlue to say they start serving Manchester effective 1st June.

Schedule is 4 per week on Wed/Fri/Sat/Sun

Islamabad- Manchester
Flight Number: ED-220
Departing: ISB at 14:00
Arriving: MAN at 19:30

Manchester-Islamabad
Flight Number: ED-221
Departing: MAN at 21:00
Arriving: ISB at 10:30

No aircraft type shown, but understand to be an A321.

Scottie Dog
:ok:

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Via Ankara I believe on the A321.

I assume Anakara is for fuel only and will not set down pax?

[MUFC_fan]

I have just seen that the AA and AC summer daily flights to Boston and Toronto are returning this month. The two carriers will use 752 and 762 equipment respectively.

Now to me, this seems weird that they can operate DAILY during the summer, but not at all during the winter! Surely, two of the world's biggest carriers could manage atleast a 4 times weekly flight to these destinations?! Going from daily to not at all seems abit steep.

Is this because of aircraft shortage or just becuase they cannot attract the customers, because ORD, NYC, PHL and ATL are all able to accomodate multi-daily flights all year round?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi MUFC_fan,

During the Winter, northerly cities in North America experience a surge in vacation traffic to Florida, Las Vegas and the Caribbean (similar to that experienced from Britain to the Mediterranean in Summer). Customers from cities such as Boston and Toronto wish to "escape to the sun" during the bitterly cold months. Consequently, it is financially lucrative for airlines to redeploy equipment to these markets when demand is at its peak, and to suspend or reduce service from 'low-season' markets to make way.

Airline operations are all about the pursuit of profit. During Winter, routes such as BOS-MIA and YYZ-LAS are heavily booked at strong yields whilst demand for MAN-YYZ and MAN-BOS is muted (even if an aircraft is full low-season yields can be poor). In Summer the reverse is true. Therefore, even if MAN is capable of supporting flights to YYZ and BOS in the Winter, the scarce aircraft resources can be more profitably deployed elsewhere. The most profitable option will be chosen by the operator.

It is also for this reason that you will notice that many charter aircraft are based in the UK May to October and Canada November to April (they will all be home to roost at MAN again soon!). North America and Western Europe simply have peaks of vacation demand which are diametrically opposed to each other. This represents a financial opportunity to airline companies.

Seasonality is the reason why MAN loses many services in the Winter (including the AAL Boston and the ACA Toronto). But equally, one could argue that we GAIN them in the Summer at the expense of leisure routes serving the North American vacation market. The aircraft simply fly where the customers are most willing to spend their money at the time.

I hope this explanation is helpful to you.

All the best, SHED.

[TURIN]

I assume Anakara is for fuel only and will not set down pax?

Emptying the lavs would be a good idea too.:hmm:

Speaking of which, who's got the maintenance contract at MAN?

[spannersatcx]

Great Wall inaugural flight will be 26th April.

[Scottie Dog]

From an email received today from the airport's community relations team:

Please be aware that the forthcoming Nighttime runway 1 closure will commence this evening at 22:15. The runway will be closed every night between 22:15 and 06:00 until the morning of Tuesday 24th April.
This is due to resurfacing and repairs to adjacent taxiways and runway lighting checks. During the stated times, all flights will operate from Runway 2. In the event of bad weather/low visibility, the works may be deferred and Runway 1 will be reinstated. Normal operations will resume at all other times. As always, the prevailing wind conditions will determine in which direction aircraft will take-off and land.


We do apologise for any inconvenience these changes may cause and would like to assure you that the work will be carried out as quickly as possible. These exceptional changes are permitted within the terms of the Planning Permission for Runway 2 and should you have any queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Other planned future closures in 2007:-
· 22:15 hrs on Sunday 3rd June till 06:00 on 8th June (5 nights). Routine maintenance, the annual walking inspection plus Runway re-designation works.
· 22:15 on Sunday 7th October till 06:00 on 12th October (5 nights). Routine maintenance and lighting checks.

[Mr A Tis]

New route from 14th May. Sligo-Manchester 4 x week ( Mon,Thu,Fri & Sun)
Aer Arann

[MUFC_fan]

Still more to come this month:

Air Great Wall Cargo started MAN ops yesterday with 4 times weekly flights (Mon, Wed, Thu, Sat).

Also, heard of another new cargo carrier at MAN from 25th April. Jett8 Cargo Airlines starts its twice weekly service from MAN with a night stop on Wed and Sat nights.

I also think EMX are increasing their frequencies this later this month on the IOM route. 24th?

Still alot more to come this summer with BE, REA, Airblue, Saudi and the return of AC!:D

[Ian Brooks]

Great Wall did not start yesterday, they start same weekend as Jet8
initially twice a week going up to 4
Also I have heard that Mahan Air to go up to 5 a week after they pull out of BHX

Ian

[MUFC_fan]

Looking good at the moment then... sure Thai and Cathy Pacific must be looking at MAN?

Any other airlines? Air India?

[Ian Brooks]

Thai have been looking for as many years as I care to remember and I`m not talking 5 or 6 years

Ian

[spannersatcx]

Cathy Pacific must be looking at MAN? Nope (It's Cathay by the way!)
Also, heard of another new cargo carrier at MAN from 25th April. Jett8 Cargo Airlines starts its twice weekly service from MAN with a night stop on Wed and Sat nights. Not before June.

[MUFC_fan]

Seen that the Tehran service is 6 hours and 30 minutes non-stop on an A320!

I'm guessing it has extra certificates and afew upper class seats to accommodate for the extra range needed.

[Scottie Dog]

Recently there appear to have been a number of negative posts with regards to services from Manchester - some warranted and others probably not.

I thought it would be an idea to look at the loads being produced from the long-haul scheduled carriers - as produced by the CAA in their provisional figures for the month of March:

Abu Dhabi - Ethihad - 12688. Seems to be an average load of 204 passengers.
Chicago - American/Bmi - 22165 - 178 average load - minus 4.60pc
Doha - Qatar Airways - 15884 - 256 average load - plus 48pc
Dubai - Emirates - 42532 - 343 average load - plus 22pc
New York JFK - British Airways/Delta/Pakistan - 16087 - plus 51pc *
New York Newark - Continental - 17955 - 144 average load - plus 23pc *
Orlando - Virgin - 23367 - plus 11pc
Philadephia - US Air - 11879 - 191 average load - minus 14pc * :\
Tehran - Mahan Air - 2200. plus 156pc *

Figures marked with an * show questionable load factors as I seem to recall that the Eastern Seaboard of the USA was effected by bad weather and therefore there may have been a number of cancelled flights.

Within Europe there have been a number of cancelled services as a result of the BA/Flybe merger. I have therefore deliberately not undertaken a comparison of last year. The following routes do however seem to have performed exceptionally well:

Istanbul - THY - 6664 - 107 average load - plus 15pc
Luxembourg - Luxair/VLM - 4070- plus 483pc * VLM new on the route
Zurich - Swiss - 14382 - plus 21pc :)

As can be seen, all is not lost, and hopefully things will start to look better in the longer term. Remember that BAConnect cancelled 21pc of their slots from Manchester - and that is one heck of a lot to have to make up.

Scottie Dog

[MUFC_fan]

Yes, but just replacing 20% of those 21% slots with widebodies in Saudi and possibly more new carriers. This would equal the loss!

Looking good on the long-haul front, lets hope we see a further increase in flights to the East, such as China and India. These are the two biggest growing economies, and if an airline such as Jet Airways (which have shown an interest in MAN, BHX and NCL) can drag the LHR connection passengers away from BA, MAN could regain 3rd spot before long! Anyway...with the airport's view of 42.5 million by 2015, they will certainly need to attract more airlines!

Will another terminal be needed?

[FlyZB]

I should think that the current terminals will be able to cope for some time yet before talk of a new terminal does the rounds. Although T1 and T3 are nearing full capacity at peak times, T2 is still extremely quiet after midday so plenty of room for additional capacity there.

Also, I think that the terminals will undergo major expansion before a T4 is considered. There is plenty of scope to do this. T1 is in the process of this as I speak. With the new security search area being constructed above ground level checkin and the new retail area above the current airside lounge due to open shortly, some pressure should be released on its cracking seems. There's plenty of room to the east to extend T3. I read somewhere that eventually it will be extended all the way as far as the airport pub. Was this just hearsay? And there's plenty of room to extend T2 as well once it reaches full capacity. The plans were to add onto the exisiting checkin hall and departure lounge, as well as extending the pier from gate 215 down towards staff west. This particular project was due to have started by now but all has gone quiet. Anyone heard anything?

[peakp]

On a email from man airport received today, under new routes it list Jet2
Man - Brussels.,not showing on Jet2 web site, any ideas from anybody.
Regards

Peak P

[pwalhx]

I saw that peakp and my guess is it is a typo, as immediately below it mentions Brussels airlines and the two have become mixed. So somebody didnt proof read properly imho.

[Momentary Lapse]

How is the security search area in T1 coming along? Last time I looked, the building looked the same from the outside, with no first floor extension, but the MYT entrance was closed. Tell me they're not putting it in on a mezzanine floor over and inside the original part of the hall? Headroom?!?!?!?!

[bmibaby.com]

How many aircraft does Jet2 have based at Manchester now?

[Cumulogranite]

As a slight aside, is anyone else here cheesed off with Manchesters policy on collecting pax?

I went to pick the wife up last night and it cost me £1.80 for 20 mins. Once upon a time I would have waited nearby and about the time she should come out have driven up. can't do this now. Manchester claim it is lowering carbon emmisions (seems to be the latest buzz word) but could it be more to do with revenue, and lots of it?

I am thinking about a petition on the No10 website about it, anyone care to join me as MAN are taking the preverbial over this. Is it the only airport where you can't have 5 mins to collect a passenger?

[redmech]

Jet2 currently has 3 737's and 2 757's with two wet lease a/c one of witch is been replaced by our own a/c at the end of the month.
Due to the shortage of a/c within the company a/c are borrowed off LBA and EDI to fill any gaps. ( you may see G-CELP being used with the Chanx decals)
At the weekend MAN uses a extra 757 and two 737's, There summer program has not fully go into action yet so the number of a/c based at MAN will increase for the summer.

[TSR2]

You are obviously not a regular user of the airport. The new system was introduced last November at Terminal 1 and early this year at Terminal 2.

If you do not wish to support the airport with a £1.80 donation, you can always pick up outside the departures hall.

[AUTOGLIDE]

CUMULOGRANITE has a perfectly valid point. There's no need to reply with abuse.

[jongeman]

Cumulogranite......I haven't yet had the misfortune of having to collect anyone up from any of MAN's terminals in the past 6 months. Myself and most of my family members to and fro between Manchester and Geneva, which means at the moment that we have to use LPL.:rolleyes:
I've been supporting MAN religiously all my adult life and I'm now of the opinion that if they want to play silly beggers with their users (and owners i.e. me) then I'm now happy enough to use the competition.
I think arranging to collect people from the departures levels is perfectly reasonable, or even the train station. I would, if only I could.

[Cumulogranite]

Pick pax up from departures is a good idea, if it wasn't for Manchester putting out more cones than can be found on the nearby M60 roadworks to stop you, and traffic wardens that move you on after 10 seconds. It isn't about being a grumpy old fart, it is about having the **** taken out of me, and everyone else that collects there. This exercise must make MAN the biggest part of 1/2 million a year, for a service that is free at every other airport I have ever been to, including LHR.

[ManchesterMan]

JONGEMAN

In a free market you are able to choose

either,so if you use LPL instead of MAN

you do so on the cost basis.

Depending where you live (ofcourse) have

you costed the two together to see which

is most economic? (Travel to and from etc).

The last time I was at LPL I noticed that they

had cut the FREE parking time down from

20 mins to 10 mins and Im sure that you had

to pay in the drop-off zone or be moved on.

I may be wrong but everyone is human.

Do Easy fly GVA all year round or do they

stop like Jet2?

MM

[dwlpl]

The last time I was at LPL I noticed that they

had cut the FREE parking time down from

20 mins to 10 mins and Im sure that you had

to pay in the drop-off zone or be moved on.

At Liverpool you enter the short stay car park immediately in front of the terminal and you get 10mins free to drop off passengers. Disabled passengers can still be dropped off outside the terminal entrance.

Do Easy fly GVA all year round or do they

stop like Jet2?

EasyJet fly the Liverpool/Geneva route daily in the summer and twice daily with up to 5 flights on Saturdays in the winter.

[jongeman]

MM - There are now no summer flights between MAN and GVA, with the possible exception of Saudia on Mon and Fri. I'm quite happy to use EZY at LPL, which is turning out to be a great airport.

Cumulogranite - I agree entirely. I'm wondering whether increasing public transport usage to and from MAN isn't in some ways linked to government funding of Metrolink, which has always been conditional on local authorities reducing congestion......or else.

Who ever heard of an airport that you can't roll up and pick passengers up from? I may be wrong but MAN may well be unique in this. It's obscene, and I will always try and find a way round it just out of sheer bloody mindedness.

[ManchesterMan]

DWLPL

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

How much do you have to pay for 11 minutes

if you loose track of time - ?

JONGEMAN

I agree with you that LPL is a great little airport,

but I dont agree with doing something out of

'sheer bloody mindedness' if it means travelling

an extra 30 miles to save £1-80.

We are lucky to have two decent airports within

easy (no pun intended!) reach.

MM

[FlyZB]

I thought that the 10 mins free was usually more trouble than it was worth. Especially in T1 where you had to fight your way through parked cars blocking every which way and by the time you had managed to waive up and down the endless rows to get to the barrier, you were in a state of panick coz the 10 minutes was very nearly up!

I hardly think that £1.80 is breaking the bank and you'll find that most people will be quite happy to pay it, providing they only use the facility once or twice a year. For more regular users I can understand, at least on principle, why they would have issues with it.

It has to be said that having worked at the airport for a number of years, I have noticed that the majority of people who complain about charges are the ones that turn up stupidly and unnecessarily early. Meeters turn up in the arrivals hall hours before the flight is due in and then moan about car park charges. Similarly in departures, it is the people that checkin 4 hours before their flight that whine about expensive shops and bars. All airports are expensive places and the more time you spend in them, the more pennies you will spend!

There is a simple solution to avoid the new pick up charges. Check the flight number on Teletext or on the airport website. Aim to arrive 30-45 minutes after the flight has landed (allowing time to taxi, disembark and collect baggage), ask the passengers to call or text you after they've cleared customs and then pick them up from the departures level where hopefully they'll be waiting for you, so you can move on quickly before the traffic wardens get to you. It's a little messy and not ideal but you if really want to avoid paying the £1.80, you can!

[lplsprog]

MM
(How much after 11min)
They wont tell you this but if your crafty enough you can put your ticket in the machine after 9 min and get an extra 10 min which is the allowance to get out of the car park. (usually it takes just 2mins if in the short stay park.)

[IB4138]

More rip off Britain! :mad:

[Momentary Lapse]

The airport also has a rather excellent text message service that tells you the status of departing and arriving flights. That was designed to allow picker uppers to arrive to collect "just in time".

The whole area outside arrivals (esp. T1) was always a mess. Lazy and mean picker uppers would clog it up circling rather than using any of the adjacent car parks (surface or multi). It was dangerous for pedestrians, and prevented emergency vehicles ever getting in or out quickly.

Something needed to be done, and it has been. Fact is, there isn't enough space for all the cars that people would like to bring in. There is an excellent public transport hub right in the middle of the airport, plus a selection of taxi products (ok so the black cabs are a rip off), which arriving pax should make more use of. There is little need for many picker uppers to even drive in, in the first place. MA is using price and capacity management to allocate a scarce resource, just like the locos do, so what's the big deal?

Free and easy drop off/pick up is a privilege, not a right.

[ManchesterMan]

IB4138
Where exactly do all the 'little englanders' live....
MM

[Ringwayman]

Air Southwest is stopping the Newquay-Cardiff-MAN service in June. Cardiff Airport is seeking another operator for the route (shall we guess that Flybe will be the 1st airline they thing of?)

[AUTOGLIDE]

If there were flight greeters turning up way too early then that is a problem with a specific group, and they should have been targeted, not everyone.
The issue with the parking charges is not just the principle or the £1.80. It is the hassle of having to drive into a car park, then queue up to pay, then queue up to leave. Last time I did it, neither the local payment machine or the exit barrier were even working.
The public transport from MAN actually isn't that good, unless you happen to live along the south Manchester rail corridor. I live in North Manchester and last time I used it it took over 2.5 hours to get home, instead of 25 minutes by car - that's why people use them...
As for the pick up being a privilege, sorry just laughed my head off there. It is a basic function of an airport, imaging going to Sainsbury's and they charged you to park, 'because it's busy', would you go again? On the one hand I go to meetings at MAPLC where they moan about no revenue, low expansion of passengers, and then some of the same people act like the airport is doing the flying public a favour.
Trust me, MAN needs the people of the region more than they need it.

[MUFC_fan]

AirAsia, a long haul Malaysian budget airline to be launched by local carrier Fly Asian Xpress, has placed a 15 plane order worth up to US$2.63 billion with European plane manufacturer Airbus. The new airline plans to launch flights to the UK - to either Manchester or Stansted Airport - next year.
Tony Fernandes, the owner of one of Asia's largest and most profitable budget airline, AirAsia, announced the plans yesterday. Mr. Fernandes also owns 10 percent of Fly Asian Xpress.
Fly Asian Xpress, a new airline set up to operate Malaysian Airlines' domestic routes after AirAsia took them over last year, has ordered 10 A330-300s and took options for another 5, Fernandes said. He predicted that the airline will need 25 planes within five years and said that it may pick the same model. Fly Asian Xpress will pay for the planes with bank loans.
The new low-cost long haul airline had planned to use the AirAsiaX brand for its long-haul flights, though will now drop the 'X,' Fernandes said. He predicted that it will carry 10 million passengers a year by 2012, and announced plans to launch flights this September using up to three leased A330s whilst the airline waits for the delivery of its first aircraft next September. It plans to sell flights for as little as 10 ringgit, or £1.50.
The airline may fly to as many as five cities with its leased aircraft, Fernandes said, declining to be specific as 'we're in the process of finalising the destinations.' They are likely to include China, India, Australia, the Middle East, Europe and Japan, and in the UK, AirAsia will serve either Manchester or Stansted Airport, he added.


I would put money on it being MAN. AirAsia is the the main sponsor of Manchester United FC, and is a main attraction for visiting Asians to the country.
I would be surprised if both routes weren't been flown within the year.

But...


British Airways chief executive Willie Walsh has ruled out an expansion of the airline's international operations at Manchester Airport in the foreseeable future.
Following the disposal of its loss-making subsidiary, BA Connect, to regional low-cost airline Flybe last month, BA now only flies to New York, Gatwick and Heathrow from Manchester Airport.
Mr Walsh said he did not envisage any routes to Europe unless BA is 'radically restructured'. He told an audience at Manchester Business School: 'We just cannot do it profitably in the face of the competition [from budget airlines].'


Shame..but not really a surprise. They will be too busy concentrating on their LHR and LGW bases as the Open Skies comes into force with increased competition.

[IB4138]

IB4138
Where exactly do all the 'little englanders' live....
MM

I also think the airport authorities or powers to be are to be commended at AGP for providing free long term parking at P3 during the construction period......something the UK airports would never consider I feel. per nivsy on the Malaga thread.


I let others do the talking. :D

[Momentary Lapse]

Autoglide said: imaging going to Sainsbury's and they charged you to park

J Sainsbury's in Wilmslow does just that, and won't even refund you at the till with a receipt. It's more common than you think.

While we're imagining stuff, can you imagine how any airport would look if parking was cheap or even free? Picker uppers would never get within a mile of the place, because the other picker uppers would get there early to "make a day of it" and do a bit of plane spotting before they collect and go home, although the passengers will probably have driven in the first place, and parked free for a fortnight.

Sad though it is, there has to be a charge to regulate the supply of a limited commodity in the face of excess demand. Simple economics. Not that different from the locos putting their prices up on high-demand flights. In fact it's exactly the same, but no-one complains about that, do they?

[Ian Brooks]

£8 to park your car at Holiday Inn Aerial, Heathrow and that is for 1 night

Ian

[Land After]

The airport also has a rather excellent text message service that tells you the status of departing and arriving flights. That was designed to allow picker uppers to arrive to collect "just in time".
The whole area outside arrivals (esp. T1) was always a mess. Lazy and mean picker uppers would clog it up circling rather than using any of the adjacent car parks (surface or multi). It was dangerous for pedestrians, and prevented emergency vehicles ever getting in or out quickly.
Something needed to be done, and it has been. Fact is, there isn't enough space for all the cars that people would like to bring in. There is an excellent public transport hub right in the middle of the airport, plus a selection of taxi products (ok so the black cabs are a rip off), which arriving pax should make more use of. There is little need for many picker uppers to even drive in, in the first place. MA is using price and capacity management to allocate a scarce resource, just like the locos do, so what's the big deal?
Free and easy drop off/pick up is a privilege, not a right.

What utter tosh. This is a money making scheme devised by the airport. There is plenty of space at T2 (and T1, before the layout was changed to accommodate paid for parking) to allow for short wait pick-ups. T3 could get busy, but was by no means unmanagable.

There are ways and means to avoid this petty charging, but I'm not going to post them here, lest they be closed.

Rip-off Britain at its best!

[Momentary Lapse]

I would repeat the concerns about emergency vehicles getting access to the front of the building when it's choked with private cars, not to mention the aviation security issues of unknown vehicles "abandoned" right outside the door.

Barriers are the best way to reduce the risk of these issues becoming something more serious.

For heaven's sake people, the place is short of land. What else is it to do to regulate access? There are enough other ways of getting there. Do you expect to drive into Manchester to go to Kendals or Selfridges, and park outside, on Deansgate or whatever road they're on, for free?

[Land After]

For heaven's sake people, the place is short of land. What else is it to do to regulate access? There are enough other ways of getting there. Do you expect to drive into Manchester to go to Kendals or Selfridges, and park outside, on Deansgate or whatever road they're on, for free?

No, but I do expect to go to Piccadilly Station to drop off and pick-up without charge.

[FlyZB]

At Piccadilly station you cannot drive your car up the approach road, you have to pick up from the side entrance where the taxi rank is and if you want to use the car park, you pay. The situation at the airport isn't much different. If you want to pick up/drop off, you can do so at the departures levels and at the station free of charge. If you want to use the car park, then you pay. End of story. As I said in my previous post, there are ways around this pick up charge and although not as convenient as they could be, it's not like the airport has closed off all avenues and you have no other choice.

For anyone that witnessed the 10 minutes free area in terminal 1 will know that on any given day it was a sham. Cars parked anywhere, people driving the wrong way down one way lanes just to get out quickly to avoid paying, vehicles were left unattended and there was absolutely no access for emergency vehicles to get near the terminal. As with many things in this country, a minority abused the system and as a result the airport have taken the privilege away. A shame for the genuine users but it's not the first organisation to make such a decision and it certainly won't be the last.

[MUFC_fan]

BAA announced today that it is to invest approximately £9.3 billion over the next 11 years upgrading its three London airports - Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. The company also released a forecast of average growth at the three airports, saying that it expected passenger traffic to rise by 2.8 percent a year in the period to 2018.
Major airport facilities planned in the investment programme include a second runway and terminal at Stansted, the replacement of Heathrow's Terminal 2 with Heathrow East and the renovation of Heathrow's Terminals 3 and 4, and new baggage systems at Heathrow to provide a world-class level of performance across the whole of the airport by the time of the London Olympics in 2012, BAA said. The programme does not include the cost of a third runway at Heathrow or a second runway at Gatwick.
Passenger numbers at Heathrow will increase from 67.3m last year to 84.4m by 2018, according to BAA's predictions. Stansted will overtake Gatwick as London's second busiest airport, with passenger figures of 45.0m against 23.8m last year, while passengers at Gatwick will increase by 18 percent to 40.5m.
The forecasts assume that a new runway and terminal open at Stansted in time for the start of 2015/16, Heathrow's Terminal 5 is in full operation before 2008/09 and other upgrades at Heathrow, including Heathrow East, go ahead. The introduction of either mixed mode operation or a third runway at Heathrow, both of which are undergoing environmental impact studies, is not included in the forecasts.


Does anybody know whether MAN wants to take 2nd or 3rd spot by this time?

Cheers.

[Fuel Boy]

It was suggested that B peir was comming down shortly also the T2 extention was to be started, world cargo was to become a domestic terminal, C peir was to be demolished as to make way for 2 way aircraft taxi-ing. also T2 to join up with T1 .......

This was a few years ago now but all that seems to have happened is numerous taxiway repairs.

I guess once they are completed(5-7 years) then maybe other works could begin, but MAN will need more Pax to justify all this..

I am sure somebody will put me right with all this and I hope so but I don't see MAN progressing as fast as BAA sites:sad:

[MUFC_fan]

I am sure somebody will put me right with all this and I hope so but I don't see MAN progressing as fast as BAA sites:sad:


Apart from LGW. LHR is well ahead of any European airport. STN is growing in confidence quicker than Cristiano Ronaldo! Scottish sites won't cause MAN many problems.

MAN need EZY or FR. If either of those carriers were to pump money through MAN (which they won't because of LPL), then MAN would certainly give STN a run for it's money! MAN has the long-haul connections that STN crave, and maybe a major LC airline at MAN would kick start the MAN revolution! (There are currently only three MAJOR LCCs in EU - EZY, FR and AB that fit the crieria that MAN needs).

I'm sure people will have different views, but MAN can't just rely on the summer traffic, they need year round LCCs which bring millions of passengers through MAN's doors each year.

MAN don't have this yet - STN does.

[Ian Brooks]

Airports don`t make money from Lo cost operators as they want everything for free
Manchester doesn`t need anymore LC they need some more long haul full fare airlines in the same class as Emirates or American who carry lots of pax who are willing to pay for the service

Air Berlin are not lo-cost they are a full service airline that just happen to be cheap
If you add up how much low cost there is out of Manchester you will be very suprised as I think Manchester has more than Liverpool and certainly a better selection of operators

Ian

[FlyZB]

The problem with the LCC's at MAN is that they're not expanding services at the same rate as FR and EZY at their bases. I think if easyjet or Ryanair were to open a base at Manchester, then we would see more rapid route expansion than the current Loco's have to offer.

Bmibaby are a waste of time. They've made it clear that they are not willing to commit to expansion at MAN and are happy to focus on Birmingham instead. Monarch Scheduled seem content on sticking with 'bucket and spade' destinations. Jet2 have shown a decent level of commitment but their winter timetable leaves a lot to be desired, with many routes either dropped or significantly reduced. Thomsonfly are the only airline at the moment that seem to be showing any sort of desire to expand operations on a year round basis.

I do agree that Loco's probably aren't the answer. More long haul carriers need to be attracted in order for the airport to increase revenue and improve its services but this is proving to be extremely difficult at the minute. Although having said this, the demise of charter flights means that attracting a big Loco operation wouldn't do any harm. Either one of the existing LCC's at MAN needs to pull their finger out (possibility of FlyBE coming up with the goods?) or the airport needs to try and attract FR or EZY to open and expand a base. The latter I really can't see happening any time soon.

[aeulad]

I agree, I think MAN has an excellent LCC network.

Aer Lingus to Cork, Dublin

Air Berlin to Hamburg, London STN, Paderborn

Air Southwest to Bristol, Plymouth

bmibaby to Alicante, Belfast BFS, Bordeaux, Cork, Geneva, Jersey, Knock, Malaga, Newquay, Palma, Perpignan, Prague

flybe to Belfast BHD, Bergerac, Brest, Brussels, Dusseldorf, Edinburgh, Exeter, Frankfurt, Glasgow, Guernsey, Hanover, Isle of Man, Jersey, La Rochelle, Limoges, Milan MXP, Norwich, Paris CDG, Rennes, Southampton

Flyglobespan to Calgary, Cape Town, Johannesburg, Toronto YYZ, Toronto YHM, Vancouver

Tuifly to Cologne, Hanover, Stuttgart

Jet2 to Alicante, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin SXF, Budapest, Chambery, Faro, Geneva, Ibiza, Malaga, Milan BGY, Murcia, Nice, Palma, Paris CDG, Pisa, Prague, Rome FCO, Tenerife TFS, Toulouse, Valencia, Venice

Monarch Scheduled to Alicante, Almeria, Arrecife, Barcelona, Faro, Ibiza, Jerez, Mahon, Malaga, Murcia, Orlando SFB, Palma, Tenerife TFS

Ryanair to Dublin, Shannon

Skyeurope to Bratislava, Krakow

Zoom Airlines to Calgary, Toronto YYZ, Vancouver

Countless Thomsonfly destinations

A MUCH more comprehensive programme than LPL.

Manchester does not NEED easyjet or more from Ryanair.

Regards

Mike

[Mouser]

Aer Lingus, Air Southwest, & Monarch, low cost since when, Thomsonfly is basically Thomson Holiday flights, and don't kid your self mate you would love Easyjet & Ryanair up at Manchester.

[FlyZB]

Both Monarch and Thomsonfly have had low cost scheduled arms for a number of years now. Where have you been??? Monarch Scheduled in particular have some excellent fares that rival EZY at LPL on the sunshine routes. And I would say that both airlines have a far superior service to both FR and EZY. Just unfortunate that they don't have the capacity to expand as rapidly.

[MUFC_fan]

Just unfortunate that they don't have the capacity to expand as rapidly.


Because they are true LCCs!

They rely on both sectors to fill their flights. TOM and ZB/MON both fly to destinations in Europe, but from MAN they only seem to be holiday destinations. This is because they are unable to compete with LS and WW on routes to cities etc, but can fill there planes through package holidays AND flight onlys.

TOM have routes from Bournemouth and Coventry which are city destinations, but is there any competiton there?

An LCC can attract passengers for flights to all kinds of destinations - City, beach, skiing etc. ZB, the 'LCC' cannot.

[Momentary Lapse]

Why does MAN need to expand anyway? It's inefficient for UK PLC - better to have a better spread of destinations from a better spread of UK airports. That will reduce long journeys from the regions to MAN, as people can instead go to their own airports. The market seems to be driving to that conclusion - now MAN is no longer really a monopoly as its neighbours are growing well e.g. LPL.

Hmm - monopolies: BT, British Gas - what happened to them? Contraction and losses. Even the NHS has competition, and people pay twice there (NI plus private insurance premiums).

All this debate is based on the presumption that growth is good. Is it? Discuss.

My view is that MAN should focus on

- streamlining its process chain from home to plane and plane to home
- improving its service levels and attitudes to customers
- reducing queues
- improving maintenance to reduce unplanned downtime
- reducing its costs to allow service partners to pay their front line staff more money so that they can retain more of them and avoid queues due to inadequate manning levels
- controlling the number of airfield service partners through licensing, to improve ramp efficiency and safety by reducing congestion, and also to reduce price-led competition, which drives down wages (see above)

Then its reputation will increase, market forces will prevail, passengers will increase and profit will follow.

[Mouser]

There are only two low cost airlines, Easyjet and Ryanair, the others like to think they are but there not really, sorry Jet2 do fall into the low cost bracket ( mind you 737's that are second hand and been round the clock, don't come close to the new A319 & 738), Monarch and Thomsonfly do the bucket and spade/sunshine routes because thats wot's in the holiday shops and brochures, I,ll tell you what MUFC FAN, go and ask Monarch cabin crew are they a Low Cost airline, and you'll get f----ed off.

[gary4444]

Thomsonfly are in talks with the Israeli Transport Ministries with a view to starting flights to Tel Aviv from Manchester (2-3 weekly) and Luton (daily)

http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/national/?content_id=6152

[FlyZB]

The only 2 low cost airlines are Ryanair and easyjet? I'm sorry but I totally disagree. They may be the highest profile LCC's in Europe but there are plenty of others. Jet2 and bmibaby for starters. If they're not low cost, then what are they? Agreed that Monarch and Thomson are traditional charter airlines but both have low cost scheduled arms and these flights (ZB in particular) are not sold to package holiday passengers, 100% of the load is made up of flight only passengers booking on the internet. What does it matter which aircraft these carriers use or where they fly to, the fact of the matter is you can log onto the Monarch or Thomsonfly websites and get a flight only fare to AGP or ALC or wherever for often a far better price than EZY is offering down the road at LPL.

I personally would love to see either FR or EZY (or both!) at MAN but to say we don't have any LCC's is simply not true.

[TCX_757]

What does LS flying secong hand 737's out of MAN have anything to do with them not being a LCC?

[FlyZB]

TCX 757 - my point exactly!

Anyway, does anyone have any further information about the Thomsonfly incident this morning? Footage from the news looks pretty bad. Just glad everyone was safe.

[Ian Brooks]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/default.stm

BBC seems to be reasonably accurate

I saw it making a turn towards Wallasey just after the incident and it was quite low ( probably less than 1000 feet )
Heard the whole incident from Mayday call which was very early after take off
to the successful return, all very calm and collected by all involved
(probably bit of a sweat in cockpit but to be expected as they would have been very busy )


Ian

[jsd95]

Following ANA Aviation and some rumors, Thomsonfly is about to open a new route to Nantes (France). Schedules are even published on ANA (3 per week with 733's), but it is not already bookable on TOM website !

Why ? And does anybody knows something about this potentially new route ?

thanks

[en2r]

Aer Arann operated the route last summer. However it was dropped for this summer so it mustn't have done that well. Does anyone know what loads were like?

[jsd95]

The loads were excellent, about 90% during summer.
This season Aer Arann operates three routes from NTE, Bristol, Cardiff and Cork, but not Manchester.

What about TOM ??

[Momentary Lapse]

When does the new security area open in T1?

[TechProblem]

By the look of things, next summer :rolleyes:

[FlyZB]

Yup, the new security search area in T1 is due to be completed by Spring 08.

Plans to move T2 OBC up to where the Atlantic Suite currently is have also been approved and work will start on this in September, with completion due by Summer 08. Similar to T1, this will mean that the current landside retail area will become airside.

[TCX_757]

Why do they need to change the security area? What's wrong with the current one?

[Ringwayman]

Aer Lingus is to resume their 4 weekly Cork service from the start of the winter timetable. Seems a bit odd to drop it for summer, but obviously they must feel that they'd generate better profits with other routes out of Cork in the summer than if they were to have a MAN link.

[Ian Brooks]

probably everybody jets off to warmer climes over summer period but think of family in the winter

Ian

[Mr A Tis]

RE the EI Cork service, does seem very strange indeed to introduce a new service in May & end it in June to re-start it in October:confused:

RE The T1 security re-jig. Judging by some of the horendous queues in T1 this week at various times, its obvious the current system doesn't work.

As very few staff & even fewer companies have seen any "plans" are there any plans to re-locate the staff deli & staff shop so that the thousands of Landside only pass holders can still use them?
Did anyone factor in the retail loss of sales from landside only staff ? The staff contribute a huge customer base for Boots & W H Smith.

Best buy shares in the T3 Spar-they may even open two tills.:eek:

[gary4444]

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum but does anyone know what the layout is in the 757 that does the Boston service and if they have seatback PTV's?

[FlyZB]

Mr A Tis...

I believe that the staff deli and staff shop will close at the end of September. Within the plans for the terminal are improvements to the arrivals hall area, which will include new shops and catering facilities for staff and also for members of the public not travelling. This is also the case for Terminal 2 once landside becomes airside over there. Included in the proposals for T2 are a Boots and a Spar in arrivals as well as a new food court.

I have been fortunate to see the plans for both the T1 and T2 redevelopment schemes and they are both very ambitious. Not only are the security search areas being moved/improved but the exisiting airside retail and catering facilities will be given huge makeovers. The terminals will be unrecognisable by next summer. How much of what is proposed will actually materialise is another matter but seeing as both schemes have been given the go-ahead and work on the T1 scheme has actually begun, hopefully what is on those plans will be what we get.

[spanishflea]

The MAN-BOS 757 is opearted by a standard US domestic config 752:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/American_Airlines/American_Airlines_Boeing_737-800.php

The First Class cabin is not sold before departure. It is available for AA Elites to reserve before though, and just over half of the seats are set aside to be sold at the airport, I think its £75-£150 but I can't quite remember as I fit into the former category. On busier flights these do sell out quite quickly. There are quite a few exit rows available in the main cabin, so if you don't want to shell out, ask for one of these at check in.

The cabin is populated with aisle TVs at regular intervals, these can be a bit difficult to see and tempermental in their audio and visual quality, but are generally OK for the length of the flight. There are 2 movie showings.

You will get a hot lunch after departure, and a snack box before landing. There are more drinks services than you can realistically expect to keep up with.

The BOS based crews are, in my recent experience of 4 ex BOS flights, some of the best on the entire AA network.

Immigration at BOS is usually pretty quick as nothing else arrives at that exact time of day.

Hope this helps! :ok:

[parky747]

Does anyone have any info if another airline are going to operate the MAN-MAD route that was dumped by flybe?

[Mr A Tis]

Fly ZB...

You do wonder why these plans are so secret & not shared with staff or tenants.:confused:

When I went through T1 last month at 7am, several x-ray search areas were not in use, despite queues, presumably because of lack of staff.
Also the T1 airside foodcourt had huge queues because only one poor member of staff were on hand to take money for the self service catering whilst also making cappucinnos, Lattes etc. After waiting 15 minutes to pay for your hot (now cold) breakfast there was nowhere to sit as around 15 empty tables were heaped with uncleared food debris.

It;s pretty pointless spending millions on new facilities if they are NOT going to be staffed properly, as is the case now.:(

[gary4444]

Thanks for the info spanishflea I have decided to pay a little extra and use BMI instead of AA to get to the final destination.

[FlyZB]

Not entirely sure why the plans are kept secret. There's no reason why they shouldn't be shown to staff. After all, they are pretty impressive and I think quite a few people would express an interest in what is being proposed. I was shown them in a staff meeting a few weeks back but other than that, nothing has been mentioned.

I totally agree about the lack of staff. We have the same problems in T2 most days and if the new terminal designs are to work efficiently, then they need to have decent staffing levels in place. That said, the redevelopments will see massive visual improvements to T1 and T2. New seating, flooring etc is all part of the plans and I believe that in itself is a major step forward.

[Momentary Lapse]

Seating and flooring is all very well, but MAN is still suffering from the old problem that the retailers have to pay so much in concession fees to the airport that there's no money left to pay decent enough wages to recruit or retain enough staff for the season. Ditto the handling agents who compete downwards on price, again not leaving enough for wages.

Papering over the cosmetic cracks is all very well, but the financials are fundamentally wrong to deliver any decent sort of customer service. MAPLC still hasn't learnt, it seems.

[IB4138]

Observed early Friday morning passing through T1.

Jet2 unable to open check in as security person required to man outsized baggage x-ray, had not turned up on time. This stopped jet2 opening check in for security reasons. Missing security bod had to be physically brought from staff room by Menzies duty manager, to enable check in to open 30 minutes late.

Only one x-ray machine and arch operating for passengers in use at security scan, with yet a new interpretation of delaying passengers and causing queues.

If you set the machine of passing through the arch, you had to remove your belt and shoes, before walking back through the arch, then walk through again and in 99% of cases, set the alarm off again before they did the normal body search with a hand held machine.

Queues were starting to grow and it was only 04.10 hours.

[FlyZB]

Really don't understand the issue with under staffing at security. They've just taken on over 100 new staff for the summer so surely there can't be a problem???

Not that it seems to make much difference. All 8 x-rays were open and fully functioning in Terminal 2 on Sunday morning and yet the queue was still back to the second escalator on the skylink for over an hour.

I think that, for whatever reason, until the new security search areas open (and hopefully with enough staff to man them), the situation won't be resolved.

[MAN777]

I have observed these long Qs recently and I am still amazed at the number of people who have still not grasped the fluids rule, pre-screening teams are holding up lines of punters who have no fluids at all.

[wiccan]

Says it all, really....
Went through T1 a couple of days ago. Big box....hiding what??? But A nice sign though......
Manchester Airport RETAIL and security developement....
bb

[icebureau]

The box in the middle of the concourse will be the temporary bureau de change, replacing the one on the ramp while the security redevelopment work is carried out.

[TechProblem]

The Arch's have changed at manchester, before the security staff did random serches on passenger's, this has now changed to the arch picking random passenger's this is also working on staff lanes.

The random's look to be 1 in 3, but if it doesn't beep for the next 3 pax then it will beep for aleast the next 2.

So they have made T2 and T1 areas bigger to get rid of a problem, and some big wig has messed it all up.

Secuirty staff know when peak times are, the arch doesn't. :ugh:

[roverman]

Whilst the passenger traffic figures don't make great reading right now at MAN, demand for freighter service is quietly stacking up. Great Wall Airlines now have 4x weekly B747F to Shanghai -their only service into the UK, FedEx have been talking to the airport and filed slots for 4x weekly MD11F to Memphis, Jett 8 have filed for 2x weekly B747F to Shanghai, and Air China are still in the picture.

Runway 05R-23L is to be upgraded to CAT III (05R) and CAT I (23L) by next Spring. MAN will be the only airport in the UK after Heathrow to offer 2 all-weather runways. That is a big selling point not lost on carriers like FedEx where regularity of service is critical.

[spannersatcx]

demand for freighter service is quietly stacking up. Great Wall Airlines now have 4x weekly B747F to Shanghai but they are bringing very little in and taking even less out! Not sure it can be sustained at such low levels of freight. Even CX loads are down.:eek:

[Whitehatter]

Freight loads are seasonally driven. Summer is not a heavy time for cargo bookings from Asia. Once the nights start drawing in then they pick up again.

Great Wall is a new entrant and won't yet have a full client list. Rarely does a carrier make money in their first months of a new service, freight or self loading cargo. New accounts or changed freight schedules have to happen first to put pallets or tins on the plane.

[pwalhx]

Great Wall will probably begin to gain momentum as previously said give them some time to build up a client base. They have entered a competetive market however whilst their base rate is low their surcharges arent as competetive as some Middle East carriers but time will tell.

[Scottie Dog]

Following on from Roverman's post about the introduction of ILS on Runway 2, I was interesting to hear from a friend that the current ILS on 06R is actually the old system from Heathrow that was used on their runway 23.

On the assumption that Manchester will move the aeriels from (what will be) 05R and reuse it on 23L then it seems like an amazing co-indicence that it will be reinstated on it's original alignment.

By the way, the only question raised was whether or not there are lighting pots already in existance for CAT111 lighting on 05R, in which case it is a relatively simple job to do the wiring. If this is not the case, then it is debatable whether the job could be finished by next spring (even a late one).

Scottie Dog

[mangrnd1]

Forgot to post this the other night...... but did many of you see the Top Gear team racing two cars down runway two the other night?

It was in the MEN on Thursday with some pictures.

Should be good to watch:ok:

[roverman]

Scottie Dog,

Your friend is misinformed about the present 06R ILS. Although we were offered the old Heathrow 23 ILS by NATS we didn't in fact take up that offer because that old Thomson system required a lot of money spending on it to refurb. In the end what we bought for 06R was a brand new Navia 7000 system configured for CAT I. You are right in as much as it will be re-used for 23L and a new CAT III Navia installed on 05R. Frequency also will change from 111.55 to 108.9 MHz. Lighting ducts are in the ground already for new lamps to be cored down onto them.

[Ian Brooks]

Try Spectators balcony for that John11
But in general it is busy in evening even though it is a bank holiday as most of the business flights tend to operate on the late flights

Ian

[aeulad]

Take a look at the Stansted thread. Looks like MAN has missed out on Air Asia, for now.

Regards

Mike

[Scottie Dog]

Not seen this officially announced by the airline, but I understand Air China plan to commence a :)PVG-MAN cargo service on a 3 times weekly basis with effect from 1st September.

That will be an interesting challange to Great Wall??

Scottie Dog

[MUFC_fan]

Wish it was Air China offering a pax service!:sad: Anyway...guessing a 744?

[Mr A Tis]

I dunno, Cathay, Dragonair, Great Wall, China Airlines, Air China,.......you'd think one of them might wanna carry the odd pax- Where's the 747 Combi when you want one. !!:sad:

[Fuel Boy]

I read on our notice board that T1 is going to be ripped down in 2 years time.
Hopfully they can sort out a better layout!!!!!:ugh:

But then a couple of days later I was told that any building work would be on expanding T3, "low cost being the way forward".

So does anybody know what is happening and what is the time frame??

bit miffed about the "low cost" statement but hey! what the heck,MAN goes to more places than most.:D

[Vuelo]

T1 is undergoing a 35 million retail redevelopment so no chance of it being ripped down. B pier is due to be rebuilt ion the near future.

T3 is apparently to get a big extension towards the airprot pub. Planning permission with Manchester council.

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Now that MAN is operating 23/05 runways, can anyone tell me the process of how (and when) they went through the process of remarking them?

I know that the old 24R/06L was not being used on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning for some time - so maybe this was marked up before the switch over and perhaps the old 24L/06R during daytime single rwy ops on Wednesday???

[rampman]

for the last 3 nights they have been working on 24R-06L now 23R-05L . remarking and changing the boads and also whilst the runway was closed they killed two birds with one stone and did some resurfacing work. was fun the hear ATC and base pilots from midnight onwards stumbling over runways wanting to say 06 instead of 05 will take a bit of getting use to
:ok: rampman

[Vuelo]

Any new routes at all for the wnter scedules? LS/ZB/BE expansions?

[IB4138]

It's pretty poor trying to get from AGP to MAN on a Monday this winter.

Only a ZB flight that gets to MAN at 22.55.

No LS, WW or TOM. :*

[Up up and away]

Forgive my ignorance but what is the benefit / difference in changing runways to 23R-05L?

:confused:

[Wellington Bomber]

up up and away

It is then pointing nearer to the right Magnetic heading

e.g if the runway is 236 degrees then it will be called r/w 24
and if it was 234 degrees then it would be called r/w 23

and so on, the magnetic variation is always changing

[Fuel Boy]

Hey there Up Up And Away

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/manchester-airport-news-070607.htm

Follow the link for a reason for the changes:)