Airlines, Airports & Routes Topics about airports, routes and airline business.


Old 21st Jan 2007, 09:24
  #1 (permalink)  
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VLM's service LPL-LCY hasn't got the kind of catchment it needs for anything like a serious operation. The LCY routes do well with the financial district traffic, a lot of finance bods using it to go to regional offices or to firms based up in Manchester.

None of that sort of setup in Liverpool really...there's also a surprising number of passengers on the MAN route travelling to and from Antwerp. Big communities in both places.

Continuation of:
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 16:48
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I think this misses the point. Before LPL expanded, the likelihood is that all of those flights would have been from MAN. Therefore MAN has occured a loss of passengers to LPL. LPL may have a lack of connections, but MAN is hardly brilliant in that aspect either.
As for London routes, the domestic (particularly LHR) flights have been decreasing anyway since the west coast mainline work ended and journey times decreased, and to be honest, as someone who has gone down this method, I just cannot be bothered with the security and queues for a poxy flight to LHR. In the time I have queued, waited, been delayed as usual etc, I'm already at Euston on the train. The LHR flights from MAN are still busy is due to the amount of connections made at LHR because the flights don't exist from MAN direct or cost too much and are cheaper via LHR.
LPL may be a one terminal low-cost only one trick pony at the moment, but, the fact that pax who were frequent MAN users are driving further to LPL instead of using MAN shows there is something missing from the offerings at MAN. That is what needs addressing, be nice if that had been done instead of off the pax even more with T1 arrivals parking charges and horrendous security queues, even at T2 which is hardly a terminal building built before the days of high pax numbers or heavy aviation security.
If MAN wants to regain the momentum, it needs the low cost flights and perceived (or real) convenience LPL is offering, and the routes pax are connecting to via LHR. Until then it's a just a second tier provincial airport (albeit a better than average one)
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 17:11
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I was going to post in detail but Autoglide has said most of it. I'd just add that if you multiply the statement a few times for the other regional airports starting to snap at MAN's heels (LBA, DSA, BHX, COV etc) then the problem for MAN looks even worse.

I'd also concur that the LON routes issue is a dead duck. MAPLC already expects rail to win that traffic in the longer term. BE may have reduced services from LPL, but what have BA done at MAN? MAPLC built a whole new terminal for them!

When BT was privatised and their monopoly market was opened to competition, they managed to take a profitable business at the forefront of a growing market (mobiles, telecoms, infrastructure etc) and reduce it to a loss-making behemoth. Lesson, anyone?
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 18:05
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This Manchester vs. Liverpool thing is SO boring now. Can we just move on please?
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 18:48
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I agree with Vuelo, the point is the region now has 3 succesful airports, manchester, Liverpool and Blackpool and that is good for the North West as a whole.
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 22:23
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I'd just add that if you multiply the statement a few times for the other regional airports starting to snap at MAN's heels (LBA, DSA, BHX, COV etc) then the problem for MAN looks even worse.
Sorry, but just what "Competition" to Manchester do these Airports bring?
DSA "Regional/Charter"....serves a "local" Market... Great
LBA "Regional" Airport......serves The local Market...Rather Successfully, I believe
BHX A very good airport..look at the Domestic/International Mix
Cov, IMMHI, is a "competitor" to BHX....rather than MAN
I note that you have omitted the other "significant" player....LPL...
That is the Airport which is "Snapping at MANs heels"....LoCo, etc
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 23:39
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I bet MAN has lost more to Heathrow because of Fortress London or because of the old bilateral agreements which did not include Manchester as an option

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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 15:41
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Originally Posted by Vuelo View Post
This Manchester vs. Liverpool thing is SO boring now. Can we just move on please?

Yes, of course you can, if you are happy to ignore something that directly affects the employment/job security of staff, and development of MAN. In fact, you could ignore everything negative and pretend everything at MAN is wonderful. You could pretend MAN wasn't overtaken by STN, that the lack of new LH routes is a mirage, that the long running claim's it will be the UK's 2nd or 3rd biggest airport is now a sad joke, that it is not losing customers to rail and other airports. Yes, with this method life is wonderful...
Personally, I would rather see problems for what they are, they can they be resolved rather than pretending they do not exist.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 17:11
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Nobody is pretending that everything at MAN is wonderful.
Nobody is pretending that MAN has been overtaken by STN, which serves a completely different region and a different market with vast amounts of inbound tourism. It's possible that passenger throughput has increased at exactly the same rate (if not more) at North Western airport as at South Eastern airports. There's certainly less of a need for people to connect through London airports than there was 20 years ago.
Nobody is particularly concerned that MAN's wish to be the UK's 2nd or 3rd largest airport hasn't happened. If the north of England could produce better yields for airlines, already operating with very tight margins, then maybe MAN would have a better chance of this.
Nobody is under any illusion that MAN now faces competition unprecedented in its history, at Liverpool, Leeds, Doncaster and Blackpool.
Posting incessant diatribes on an internet forum isn't going to help matters, it would be far more productive to address your concerns to people with some influence, and not us, because Manchester threads are starting to make very painful reading.

Last edited by Evileyes; 23rd Jan 2007 at 01:39. Reason: ADQ
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 18:01
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Without wanting to continue this inter airport rivalry, I thought Manchester was designated as a Monopoly Airport like Heathrow and had aspects of its abilty to abuse its monopoly restricted in order that surrounding airport could grow.
This handicap has proved its worth, and now Liverpool,Blackpool and Leeds Bradford have developed not as a result of their own ability but because the playing field was never level.
I'm sure I read somewhere that Manchester requested this Monopoly stutus now be removed as they where no longer in that position.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 19:52
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Surprised there is any rivalry. I thought entire justifaction for the expansion at Manch over the years has been to provide more local options as an alternative to the South. If now the locals of Leeds, Sheffield, Blackpool and Liverpool are too embracing the fly local option instead of the time and cost associated with getting to MAN, shouldn't that be welcomed?
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 22:18
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Yes, it was always a double edged sword with Manchester trying its hardest to lobby for greater non London air services, it could not justify then saying it and only it should have them, they had to say the lobby was for all the region airports and to that end, it was most successful.
What it was not allowed to do by law was crush Liverpool (which it could easily have done if allowed to bring its charges below them and outprice them) so Liverpool was allowed to artificially flourish at Manchester expense by law.
The same is not true for Heathrow which cross subsidised Stansted because they are all BAA (for the greater good of BAA) they have created a bigger monopoly, this was not envisaged when Stansted was given the go ahead to be expanded, the passenger numbers where capped at 7m and required to go back through Parliament to increase that figure.
The regional lobby agreed to this assuming that the figure would never get increased, unfortunately and again artificially it was, so it grew and grew, because it undercut all, and what could Manchester do? nothing its hands where tied because it was a regional monopoly airport.

Ironically several years before this Stansted threatened to report Manchester to the European Commission for attempting to attract traffic by undercutting Stansteds landing fees, how they have turned that round.
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Old 23rd Jan 2007, 16:33
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Great news in tonight's Manchester Evening News!

Airport in for the long haul

Exclusive by Kevin Feddy

A HOST of new long-haul scheduled destinations is expected to flash on the departures board at Manchester Airport this year and next as bosses look to the east and west for expansion.

They are hopeful of securing routes to Jeddah, in Saudi Arabia, and to Nairobi this year, and are in talks about flights from 2008 to China, India and parts of the US not currently served directly.

The M.E.N. also understands airport chiefs are in discussion with representatives from Qantas, Air New Zealand, Japan Airlines, South African Airways and Sri Lankan Airlines. At present, those carriers are put off because high fuel costs mean they need to generate more business to make money, and there is still less demand for premium seats to and from Manchester than, say, Heathrow.

That could all change when the Boeing 787 Dreamliner comes into service soon. It is more fuel-efficient than current jets, making it more economical for airlines to operate.

Airport bosses see the long-haul scheduled market enabling Manchester to differentiate itself from rivals such as Liverpool John Lennon and Birmingham and position itself as the country's leading regional gateway.

Saudia Airlines is likely to operate two services a week to Jeddah, via Geneva, while hopes are high that Kenya Airways will put on three weekly services to Nairobi, via Paris.

Negotiations are underway with four airlines in China about services to Beijing or Shanghai as the country undergoes rapid economic expansion, while India is also in Manchester's sights.


Air India ran services to Bombay for several years, but there is demand for a resumption of links to the north west.

Four carriers are in talks about launching flights to Mumbai, Delhi, Hyderabad and Chennai next year.

Across the Atlantic, Manchester Airport narrowly missed out on a Northwest Airlines service to Detroit last year, but the carrier is looking to expand in the UK and could revive its plans, while United Airlines is looking at the possibility of flights to Los Angeles or San Francisco.

Meanwhile, operators on transAtlantic routes want to increase capacity and frequency as are those flying to Bangladesh, Iran and Libya.

Around 20m people live within a two hours of Manchester Airport, but hundreds of thousands of business and leisure passengers from the region must travel to many long-haul destinations via London or European cities, a trend that bosses are anxious to halt.

Aidan Mooney, the airport's head of network development, said: "We are expecting to see very positive growth in 2007 and beyond, particularly in the long-haul sector.

"A large number of international airlines understand the potential of Manchester Airport as the gateway to northern England.

"Over the next few years, we have a real confidence that our passengers' long-haul aspirations will be met with a raft of new services to new destinations."
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Old 23rd Jan 2007, 18:19
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Id take the MEN article with a pinch of salt.
They put a similar article in 18 months ago mentioning Thai, Cathay plus many of the airlines mentioned in this article. They came to nothing so I will only believe this when I see the aircraft at MAN. Qantas, JAL and SAA are just airport pipedreams. The MEN obviously has nothing better to write about.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 06:50
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Sorry to be a sceptic but hands up who I read the same headline on the M.E.N 20 years ago...!

"Manchester Gateway To The World......" it proundly boasted.

Well made some progress but sorry, still waiting in this corner of England. !

Also note the wording in the PR release, "Regional", "Northern", even comparisons with Liverpool.

Liverpool has been expoited because Manchester was undertandably reliant on BA, AF. LH etc and always believed in the BA spin that they eventually develop never happended !

Manchester never envisaged the impact of locost, BUT quoting comparions in a press release god MAN have we sunk that low !

And another thing Marketing Dept - Please Please please start using words like international, cosmopolitan and major gateway.....

Manchester is now a really happening place , unlike Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham etc it looks and indeed feels like a microcosm of London... ...although I say that having noted the best bits of London !

It's about time the airport managment believed it themselves !
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 18:05
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In answer to Scottie Dogs' question here

There has just been an announcement

Effective February 1, Dragonair's 11 weekly freighter services to Europe and the Middle East will be operated under the "CX" call sign through a wet-lease arrangement with Cathay Pacific.
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 22:13
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Ba Man-jfk

If the CC do strike next week, will the only BA longhaul service outside of London be affected?
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Old 25th Jan 2007, 22:22
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No - it's a BaCon service and it won't be affected. Could be very busy as a result.

Last edited by Evileyes; 26th Jan 2007 at 17:27. Reason: ADQ
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Old 26th Jan 2007, 10:39
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Great information provided on Long Haul @ Manchester.

It mention Qantas. They have said that they wont return to MAN . It was actually Alan Joyce of Jetstar who said QF wont do MAN, but instead when Jetstar get their 787s they will serve MAN as a matter of priority.

Jetstar will serve many destinations that QF dropped as marginal and Jetstar can do profitably with Lower costs!

Looking forward to Jetstar and the 787 !!!
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Old 26th Jan 2007, 17:23
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Definately confirmed as starting long haul flights in june are Saudia with 777 twice weekly mon and fri i think coming via geneva. Also looking v likely are bellview 7 times weekly to lagos!! And 50 50 at the moment on kenyan with 767. Looking good at last.
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