MANCHESTER - 5

[Ringwayman]

Possibly most siginificant pair of announcements in the space of 24 hours for the expansion of MAN services for the past two decades?

I believe we could be talking of at least 1.5 million additional seats on offer ex-MAN by 2010 when both airlines operations are combined.

Don't forget if it's "only" 5 based A319s by U2 by 2010, there is plenty of potential for them to add MAN from their other bases.

[MancRy]

Just on a side not, it also quite possible that EZY will keep atleast one A320 in the long term at MAN especially if they decide to continue with TFS and PFO. The A319 has not got the legs to do these sectors and MAN crews are not due to be trained on the 319 anytime soon.

[Scottie Dog]

easyJet - Must admit that I was expecting a couple more based aircraft, however as has been said there is nothing to stop the introduction of services from overseas bases such as GVA/MAD/MXP + ??

Ryanair - Yes, BRE is a possibility plus another continental based destination. If you look at the wording of the MEN announcement you will see that they talk of FR doubling their operation. Remind me if I'm wrong, but that only relates to an additional 5 flights per day - which I would not classify as being a massive expansion.

As Suzeman says, each airline will be aware of the slots being held by their competitors after the slot conference and so we will have to see what is announced tomorrow.

[mickyman]

I guess all the people who are moaning about such
developments at Manchester will be the ones
travelling on the BA shuttles to catch flights from
London.Manchester can only support a certain
number of long-hauls as has been proved over the
years - get this in your heads and come to terms
with it.

It never ceases to amaze how small minded some
northern people continue to be!

Any growth is better than stagnation when you
are running a business.
I didnt realise that the monopolies these two
airlines have at Liverpool has led them to charge
astronomical fares which at the last look seem
to have been paid by people in increasing
numbers.........or am I not able to follow the
logic.

To the unhappy people:Take your sad chips
with you when you leave the building.......

Ive been banging peoples heads against the brick wall
about such things for years and they still use the same
arguments.......even though all im pummelling with now
seems to be bone dust.

Manchester should welcome Easyjet and Ryanair with
open arms..........its what the travelling people want as
has been proved up and down the country/Europe.

MM

[Ian Brooks]

Do you think Jet2 have been sitting on the fence because they knew something was going to happen and know they cannot match the likes of Easy and Ryanair- debate!

Ian

[Homo Simpson]

The problem with the Easy/Ryanair expansion is that there are many people who dont want to fly with them. We need choice not just these two. I would rather go fly through somewhere else than fly Ryaniar. Just my choice.
Its not as good as many people might think.

[MUFC_fan]

How about FR going twice daily to MAD and REALLY ruining the show for EZY?

Can't wait for tomorrow and the FR announcement really has come out of the blue! If there are to be meetings in both cities then maybe we will see a massive increase at both bases! MAN is certainly starting to play with it's power but it is also good to see that FR and EZY are still recognsing LPL as a very well organised and most importantly, a profitable airport.

Its only a matter of time before MAN returns to it's number 3 spot.

With more flights in S08 and hopefully more long haul by S09, LGW better what out in 2010!;) MAN is back on the pull and nobody is going to stop them! Surely not...

[Ian Brooks]

Yes especially as Stansted figures were down over 6% for November
and will be for most of the winter with all those Ryanair flights lost

Ian

[Suzeman]

Well said mickeyman.

The desire not to embrace LCCs at MAN in the early years has been one of the main reasons that forecasts have not been realised.

What MA needs - and has at last got by the look of it - is a good balance of all types of traffic to cater for all the different types of business - legacy scheduled, long haul and ITs as well as LCCs. And the LCCs now coming in are the two biggest brand leaders that everyone in the UK will have heard of.

There will undoubtedly be casualties - there always have been even before LCCs were invented. And the next set will depend on the EZY/FR destinations. But there will always be a space at MAN for some of the legacy carriers in Europe, especially those with good hubs like KL,AF and LH.

As far as Long Haul carriers are concerned, this will always be difficult. London and particularly LHR have incredibly strong F and J demand - mainly because of the financial industry- yes all those bankers. :}
Alliances mean that long haul pax can be attracted to the larger European hubs to connect. There are economies of scale here for the Long Haul boys.

Those airlines that do look at MAN are often trying to compare yields from MAN with those of London. And then there is quite often a bilateral issue with MAN routes which is not the case with London or other destinations where the airline may be looking at sending that aircraft. So why bother with all the hassle? And when they do manage to jump all these hurdles, sometimes the demand does not materialise.

So to pin any growth on Long Haul and Legacy Carriers only would be foolish indeed. Sorry chaps and chapesses, but the civic pride in attracting long haul flights does not pay the bills.

So let's be thankful that some growth now looks possible again and the business risk is spread across all types of pax traffic as well as the burgeoning freight sector - a recent success story that doesn't receive the attention it deserves. Other airports in the region don't have the luxury of such a spread and if the low cost bubble burst ......:eek:

Suzeman

[MancRy]

Absolutely. Shot haul travel is changing and it's changing in the LCC's favour. As already said, legacy carriers short haul are great for connecting into their hubs and the likes of AF, KL and LH will survive.

As for chasing long haul, MAN aren't exactly languishing behind are they? SQ, EK, EY, QR, PK, US, AA, DL, CO, VS, BD even BA get in on the act.

[top-jet]

hi all i'm new on here, so whats the latest gossip other than ezy announcing its new base at MAN, anyone know how the ringway handling situation is going? etc etc.

[This Charming Man]

From the M.E.N website

quote
RYANAIR was the latest budget airline to unveil major expansion plans at Manchester Airport when it announced services to the cities of Milan, Marseille, Girona in Spain and Bremen in Germany would start next year.

The Irish carrier will operate a total of 12 services a week to those destinations initially.

It hopes to add four more Manchester routes by June and a further four by summer 2009.
unquote

[DONTTELLTHEPAX]

Can we look forward to STN-MAN-STN ?
ALC, PMI, GRO, MAD, BGY, CRL, BHD would be a good bet.

[MAN777]

heres the link

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/business/s/1028701_now_ryanair_to_expand

[lfc84]

MAN to Girona, Marseille, Milan and Bremen showing on the route map on the ryanair website

[This Charming Man]

The M.E.N also note that CSA will increase services. I understand that they will increase from 13 to 21 flights a week , did i miss something, is this old news ?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Start dates:
.
From Manchester To
.
Milan (Orio al Serio) 10 Apr 08
Bremen 01 Apr 08
Barcelona (Girona) 02 Apr 08
Marseille Provence MP2 02 Apr 08
.
Stoney

[andy mach 1]

From a quick look Ryanair will operate the following

Girona 4x week arr 1925 dep 1950 MWFSu
Breman 3x week arr 1855 dep 1920 TuThSa
Marseille 2x week arr 1410 dep 1445 WSu
Milan Bergamo 3x week arr 2020 dep 2035 TuThSa

so 15 extra flights a week

Andrew:cool:

[MancRy]

Surely destinations such as Marseille and Milan deserve a daily service.

[viscount702]

TOM flights to TEL Avia for summer now on sale. 3 flights a week.

CSA were retiming and adding an extra flight to make it twice daily. Have heard nothing of them going 3 Daily.

Does anyone know if THY are to increase flights to IST to 10 a week as reported ealier

Viscount

[ManofMan]

I hear from a likkle birdy that CSA are going 20 x per week and that THY is going 10 x weekly, secons flight on Monday Wednesday and Friday.

Anyone heard anything about Qatar going to 15 per week ?????

[Vuelo]

What about SQ going 25 weekly, EK going 69 weekly and EY going 350 weekly?

[spannersatcx]

What about CX1x a week....... that really is pie in the sky!

[Rob Courtney]

MAN-CRL would be great, we currently travel to Stanstead for the CRL flights as the only other option is to take a second morgage and go with flybe or SN who have the duopoly on this route.

[MUFC_fan]

I like BBCs reporting on the story:

'MAN will now compete in the low cost sector against LPL.'

LOL! Like they havn't been for the past 10 years!:} Good news for MAN and lets hope it keeps improving and 3rd spot will be back before long!;)

[StoneyBridge Radar]

So any guesses for the 4 routes planned for June and the four for 2009?
"RYANAIR was the latest budget airline to unveil major expansion plans at Manchester Airport when it announced services to the cities of Milan, Marseille, Girona in Spain and Bremen in Germany would start next year.
.
The Irish carrier will operate a total of 12 services a week to those destinations initially.
.
It hopes to add four more Manchester routes by June and a further four by summer 2009."
.
Stoney

[Suzeman]

Good news for MAN and lets hope it keeps improving and 3rd spot will be back before long!;)

Why does it matter about 3rd spot? Surely what matters is that MAN has a sustainable business and serves the demand in this part of the world.

And MAN's world rankings in terms of pax carried will continue to decline as many airports in SE Asia are now experiencing massive growth whilst the European market - and especially the UK - is now a mature one.

Suzeman

[Ian L]

M.E.N also mentions AY going 3 x daily.

[Ian Brooks]

Yes 1 will night stop to link in with their far east flights

Ian

[pb115]

Gdansk now showing on Cental Wings site, 3 per week Tu,THUR and Sat.
Arr 0820 Dep 1705....:ok:

[MANFlyer]

Why does it matter about 3rd spot? Surely what matters is that MAN has a sustainable business and serves the demand in this part of the world.

And MAN's world rankings in terms of pax carried will continue to decline as many airports in SE Asia are now experiencing massive growth whilst the European market - and especially the UK - is now a mature one.

Absolutely spot on. :ok:

I can only imagine most of those on here who just want to see the airport get swamped with LCC flights don't have to fly in and out of the place very often.

[mickyman]

MANFlyer

change the record

MM

[viscount702]

Odd times for Gdansk.

Either a very long stopover which I doubt but too short for a trip in between back to Poland unless there is an A/C change. Also we don't know about WAW yet

Viscount

[Suzeman]

Manflyer,

Think you got the wrong end of the stick. I was suggesting rankings don't matter, rather than supporting the posts like yours on here which moan about swamping the place with LCC. The point is does it really matter whether MAN is 3rd or 4th busiest in the UK? Only by getting pax volume (which the LCC will bring to replace the declining volume of IT pax) will the place be able to continue both as a sustainable business and generate enough income to afford the capital projects it needs to satisfy the pax and airlines and provide a decent service. But it doesn't matter to me whether Stansted is ahead or behind MAN.

And as you may have seen from my previous post (1515 ), I am advocating a good mix of the different types of traffic at MAN to satisfy ALL the diverse types of demand in our region. So, as far as I am concerned, I am pleased that these EZY have committed themselves to an operation at MAN and there is a small expansion by FR. To my mind, this achieves a better balance between flight types at MAN.

And whether you like it or not, the LCC business model is the one in vogue in Europe at the moment. Eventually, someone may come along with a different concept, but for now, airports should accomodate LCCs where it makes good business sense to do so. In an interview with Rowena Burns on BBC TV last night, she said that discussions with the LCCs had been protracted because there was a neeed to strike a deal that was right for the airline AND the airport. At last this has been achieved.

So roll on the first EZY flight I say

Suzeman

[ManofMan]

So roll on the first EZY flight I say


From what i hear the first non GB airways route will noy be flown from Man until Winter 08

Mom

[pwalhx]

Reading the press statements, I would agree that seems a logical conclusion.

[monkey lover]

I think it will be sooner than you think ;)

[MAN Guy]

Monkey lover are you hinting some Easyjet flights from European points with non-MAN based aircraft could start operating prior to winter 08? If yes which are the top candidates.... surely MAD and GVA are up there?!

[MUFC_fan]

AF to codeshare on MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK with DL from March 30th 2008 as part of their major deal with the airline. Will this have an effect on sales?

[eggc]

There are a lot of folk that fly MAN - CDG - USA, as they do with KLM & DLH, therefore I pressume that the need for a connecting flight would be removed if flying AFR to the US ex MAN, once the code share kicks in.
AFR may then reduce the number of CDG-MAN feeder flights (is it 5 or 6 daily currently ?), and hey - does that not mean less polution too :rolleyes:, and add to that better utilisation of DAL's capacity ex MAN (which may well encourage them to expand), it makes good sense to me in todays world of puddledness. :ok:

[MancRy]

They are EZY flights regardless of whether they are GT destinations.

MAD etc (i.e foreign based aircraft) flights are not on the radar for the time being. However, there is slack in the '2 aircraft' schedule this summer and AGP is a possibility.

[mudcity]

Is this not just a sign of how saturated the UK LCC market is,,RYR flying to MAN where they presumably will not be getting a huge discount from the airport. EZY moving into markets mostly well covered by existing LCC .
I would imagine that whatever yields exist at MAN are only going one way ..DOWN and existing carriers will end up cutting capacity.
guess that is the way of the world (in the uk anyway)

[Ian Brooks]

The most efficient airlines will survive as has always happened also
Manchester cannot afford to lose passengers to it`s competitors
therefore a deal will have been done with Ryanair and Easy which will benefit
both the airlines and the airport
Manchester is not in the same position that they can give unbelievable deals to one airline but not another as maybe Liverpool and Doncaster

Ian

[viscount702]

In an interesting move ZB have just announce 5 flights per week to LCA.

As for EZY I find the current siuation very odd. They announce the intention to operate flights but have not said to where and when.

The press release was full of ifs and buts nothing concrete. Further I don't understand what the reference to Regulatory approval refers as this was not a qualification for LGW. Could this be that there are still issues with MAPlc. Even if the GT takeover didn't happen they could still start flights to MAN from wherever using the foreign based A/C without setting up a base and they could as far as I am aware do this next week if they wanted provided they had the slots which are told they have.

So why are they not saying where they will be flying and when.

Viscount

[Ian Brooks]

GB/Easy is not a done deal until all Is are dotted and all signed so therefore they cannot make final details ( which I presume include the schedules ) public as there are the legal formalities as could be seen with FlyBe/Bacon
Once everything is sorted I`m sure a public announcement will follow with details of routes and prices etc

Ian

[viscount702]

I agree but there is nothing to stop EZY starting routes which are not connected to GT.

On another point I noticed on OAG that DL are not using a 764 to ATL next summer. This seems to fit in with comments on another thread. I thought they wanted to increase capacity on this route and they were doing this but now it would appear we are back to a 76? despite codeshare with AF
Viscount

[MUFC_fan]

Just wishing they would bring the T7 back on the route! Travelled MAN-ATL-MCO with the airline during March 2003 and used T7 on all 4 legs - superb a/c!

Flying with EK to Far-East next summer so will be able to sample the T7 again - this time even bigger!;)

Does seem very weird that the airline won't be using the 764. They have always had extremely high loads! Maybe going double daily! Put that in the rumour mill!:}:}

[MUFC_fan]

Official new routes for 2008:

ZB LCA A320/A321 18MAY08 5X WEEKLY
FR BGO B738 10APR08 3X WEEKLY
FR BRE B738 1APR08 3X WEEKLY
FR GRO B738 2APRIL08 4X WEEKLY
FR MRS B738 2APR08 2X WEEKLY
C0 GDN B733/B734 30MAR08 3X WEEKLY
C0 POZ B733/B734 30MAR08 4X WEEKLY
C0 KRK B733/B734 30MAR08 4X WEEKLY (increase from 3x weekly)
BE INV DH4 8MAY08 2X DAILY

And most importantly:

EASYJET TO ANNOUNCE NEW ROUTES FROM MANCHESTER 1ST JANUARY 2008! OFFICIAL!

[viscount702]

Flights now on sale from MAN

1xYVR and 2xYYZ No YYC also one of YYZ makes a stop.

Very disappointing

[GLENO]

MUFC Fan.........The official announcement of new routes for Easyjet from Man is to be made on 1st Jan?........where have you got this info from ????

[MUFC_fan]

MAN website.

Homepage.

Right-hand side.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Zoom
Flights now on sale from MAN

1xYVR and 2xYYZ No YYC also one of YYZ makes a stop.

Very disappointing
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=3787430)

What's happened to the Birth of Zoom UK??:confused:

[GLENO]

re Easy Route announcement 1st Jan,

Thanks for that MUFC fan! let the guessing games begin...............:)

[Code 100]

MUFC fan/Gleno

How many routes do you think we will get, and can we guess the new routes rather than the BA routes.

Good old bit of Xmas guessing to keep us all entertained!

[elgan]

Thank you Zoom for throwing my summer into dissaray! Will have to use TCX now to do MAN-YVR YYC-MAN.

[SkinHeadFlyer]

Noticed that EZYs route map has grown to include a couple of 'new' countries.

[chrism20]

Is one of these new countries Iceland?

As this has happened a few times when they have been adding routes onto the system

[MAN Guy]

I agree BYALPHAINDIA, the Zoom offering for next summer from MAN is disappointing to say the least.....with no AC on the scene this time round you would have thought they would be right in there...... seems very odd indeed. Are they short of aircraft or more interested in other markets?

[MancRy]

Unless EZY are planning to announce next winters routes, it will be GT staple i'm afraid.

[MAN Guy]

I was under the impression that Easyjet could not sell any ex-GT routes until its all a done deal....does this mean the deal will be done and dusted before 1st Jan?

I must admit I thought with the GT deal not rumoured to be signed, sealed and delivered until mid Jan at the earliest, that what is being advertised on the Manchester Airport website could have been a first sprinkling of non-GT routes for MAN?

[MancRy]

As far as i know, this summer will be a 2 x A320 operation. Nothing was mentioned either about having overseas based aircraft operating into MAN.

This could all change, however, the GT routes will operate this summer regardless.

[This Charming Man]

Why are FlyBe cancelling approx 500 sectors from MAN between JAN and MAR 08 ??? :ugh:

MancRY your in the know , please tell....:confused:

[MancRy]

I'm not sure about BE. and the canx flights. I work for GT so thats why it "appears" that i'm in the know.

[OltonPete]

This Charming Man

flybe cancel flights from most of its "original" airports (pre Bacon) in January until the 2nd week in February (school hols).

I can only speak for bhx but usually one mid-morning or midday gla & edi are chopped on Tuesdays to Thursdays and sometimes an evening
one as well on Monday to Thursdays (not this year though).

Belfast sometimes gets the same treatment and this year Brest stops
all together until the Feb school holidays.

500 sounds a lot and especially until March but in the case of EDI & GLA when you are operating eight a day there are some savings to be had without ****ing off too many pax during the "low season".

Others from flybe might be able to give you some more background detail to this but as far as I know it is nothing to do with crew hours or aircraft maintenance just saving money.

Pete

[ADC2604]

Commercial reasons

But there are a lot more than normal....or so it seems. Presumably because of the larger size of the airline compared to previous years, I don't know but I know that the regional airports such as EXT and NWI have also been hit. On the bright side, the routes will be coming back!!! (eventually)

[viscount702]

I thought X3 were dropping HAJ. Well it would appear not as it is showing on their timetable.

1&2 0830 Dep

345&7 2045 Dep

Viscount

[viscount702]

Elgan

Post on another thread suggests Zoom may announce soom more flights in new year. No idea where from though.

I have to say that taking all into account their showing for MAN so far is very poor.

Bearing in mind that apart from Zoom and GSM there is now no one offering scheduled flights from MAN ( TCX & TS are really charters for Canadian Affairs) you would think they could offer a bit more.

Viscount

[viscount702]

Anyone know what happened to the November stats from MAplc. Were they so bad they didn't want to publish them.

[MUFC_fan]

Why are BMI sat on there arse when there is such a massive market at MAN? BA are clearly not going to do anytihng so why not start a massive expansion from the airport?!

I know that they have just intergrated BMED into BMI but can they not see the demand at MAN on long haul?

They don't offer many long haul connections from LHR so they can't offer that as an excuse. They do, however, use UA at both ORD and LHR but hardly anything to the east!

Place an order for 10+10 A330s and A350XWBs and get MAN back on the map! PVG, HKG, LAX ETC. They have Star connections across the globe, why not utilise them?!

I would like to know you views.

[mickyman]

MUFC fan

er..........have you been at the Christmas ale a tad
early??

Go lie down in a darkened room for a couple of hours
and reflect on your wierd outburst.

MM

[MAN Guy]

MUFC fan, I genuinely think BMI are pretty lost for direction regarding long-haul. I'm not even sure they know where to commit themselves to regarding their long haul stuff nowadays.

From the start of BD long haul MAN was just a convenient place to dump the 330's whilst they waited for open skies, however now they have what they wanted all along their transatlantic plans ex-LHR seem to have stalled (!!!) So I'm guessing MAN's long haul has a stay of execution for the time being at least. There were rumours of more 330's on order (almost definitely for LHR ops) recently but not sure about the status of this order?

In my opinion they could make more of a commitment long-haul ex-MAN, the 330 seems a good sized aircraft for routes such as MAN to Los Angeles, Johannesburg, Cape Town, Delhi and Bombay......I believe a South Africa service got very close to announcement stage a fews year back but they got cold feet citing crewing issues as the excuse.

Regarding future commitment to long haul ex-MAN I would be surprised if anything new cropped up in the immediate future but given BMI's previous decision making anything is possible!

[FlyZB]

In my opinion, bmi are just another BA. They are not fully committed to the regions and ultimately are only interesting in LHR. I agree with MAN Guy's post. Opening long haul routes from MAN was just a means of getting themselves into the long haul market, using the airport as a 'dumping' ground for their A330's and making a name for themselves by producing what has turned out to be a very good long haul product. They can use their excellent long haul reputation to their advantage once they are ready to go trans-atlantic from Heathrow. It don't think it will be long before we see nothing more than a 1 x daily to ORD. The rest will vanish just like IAD did. I reckon at some point VS will take on the Caribbean routes that BD leave behind. bmi simply aren't interested in MAN. They must realise the potential for services to LAX etc but have chosen to ignore it. It's airlines like this that we don't need at Manchester. We've had our fair share of them in the past and bmi, at least in terms of long haul, are just another to add to a long list :(

[cornishsimon]

MUFC_fan (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=170372)

i can see exactly what you are saying regarding bmi and the potential at MAN. personally i would like to see both bmi and ba see the true potential for longhaul ex MAN and start adding the aircraft and routes that the airport deserves.

i do, however doubt ba will ever do it, especially considering its very much turning into London airways or should i say Heathrow airways.

surely the MAN-JFK has a very good reputation and good loads, it should serve as an example to BA that people want to fly ex MAN and avoid LHR

just my opinion!

[MUFC_fan]

cornishsimon

The MAN-JFK with BA is very popular and it has been said that the airline is waiting for the loads to drop to give the airline an excuse to cancel the route and use the slots at JFK and the plane for different purpses (obviously including LHR!:ugh:) Whether you wish to believe this or not, the good old MAN passengers are keeping the route going and their persistance seems to be rewarding the airport and the route.

Just a shame BA don't realise it will be able to work with other routes also...

Maybe when the 787s arrive the 763s being brought out of LHR maybe become available...oh wait...LHR will have changed it's runway operations and they will have too many slots to fill with aircraft!:ugh::ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

Yes I remember BA pulled their Los Angeles service because it was making too much money. I can't understand why BMI don't fly MAN-LAX as it's obviously a goldmine ( seriously ? )
Well except for the possibility that all the other long haul routes are MAN-foreign hub.....and BMI has no hub at Los Angeles. The other long haul routes are non daily leisure routes.

Think : US - PHL hub, CO - EWR hub, SQ - SIN hub, EK DXB, hub, EY - AUH, QR - DOH hub, DL - ATL and JFK hubs, AA - ORD hub.
The exception is BA - JFK which still annoys the Hell out of BA London lol.


It becomes a no brainer that pound for pound MAN-USA will yield less than LHR-USA, and so the fact that there are a finite number of A330s will see them at Heathrow sooner rather than later.

[MUFC_fan]

[quote]
It becomes a no brainer that pound for pound MAN-USA will yield less than LHR-USA, and so the fact that there are a finite number of A330s will see them at Heathrow sooner rather than later.
[quote]

And thats the problem, but can you blame them? They are a business, not a charity.

What MAN needs is a new airline (or existing) that can build a long haul route network from the airport, being extremely aggressive in all areas - advertising, orders, prices, service etc. Look at DXB, before EK started it's boom, the region was looking at nothing after oil supplies ran out, now it is home to the most exciting airline on the planet! EK have introduced cheaper fares, advertise in nearly every sport, made HUGE aircraft orders, got immaculate aircraft flying all four corners of the globe.

Although MAN does not have the sun or the oil industry, it does have something over the Middle East in that it is perfectly placed between East and West which has been something LHR has been benefitting off for many years. If an airline was able to build a network like the three middle eastern carriers (EK, QR, EY) and now other ailines such as Jet in India, then the airport would not have to attract all it's passengers to the North West, just offer competitive fares, great service and easy transfers.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Yes I remember BA pulled their Los Angeles service because it was making too much money.

The route cost BA Regional an absolute fortune. BA leased the aircraft to regional on terms far worse than Regional could have got on the open market. Loads were dire, and the majority of bums on seats in both classes were either heavily discounted or paid for in AirMiles.

To say MANLAX made too much money is as far from the truth as you could get.

Stoney

[Skipness One Echo]

Er.....I know. I was being sarcastic. Oh dearie me....
The point you make is a good one, because BA London ensured the enterprise was handicapped from day one.

[AUTOGLIDE]

Personally I would like to see BA disappear from MAN completely and never reurn. They are parasitic and handicap LH growth by transferring pax via LHR, their LGW service is comically unreliable, and BA Engineering could likely survive their departure as they mostly do 3rd party work anyway.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Er.....I know. I was being sarcastic. Oh dearie me....


It's late, sorry. :O

Stoney

[MUFC_fan]

Will U2 be keeping their GIB link? Hope they re-instate it from MAN is the near future!

Bring on January 1st!:}

[aidoair]

Correct me people if i am wrong but i am sure that i read somewhere that BA are to take over the LGW-GIB route when Easyjet officially takes over the GB routes. Would be good though to have the MAN-GIB route reinstated.

[Bagso]

,,,must confess far from expanding I would be more worried about the loss of more BMI long haul routes Ex Manchester.

I understand they are losing a shedload of money although quite why with a a good product and excellent domestic feed remains a mystery. Not sure how fares compare so is this the reason ..?

Like many others I thought they had fully embraced MAN when they started not realising it was just simply a proving ground for services from the great God LHR.

[Fuel Boy]

IF there are number of strikes, will we expect to see alot more movments at MAN, Does anybody know if plans have been made if this is the case?
Fuelboy:bored:

[Ian Brooks]

I`m sure a lot of airlines have put a contingency plan in place but as to whether it involves Manchester? but I`m sure that the BAA will try and avoid the strike because it will be so costly to them in the short and long term future

Ian

[MAN777]

Dont get too excited, going off recent responses to problems ie weather, I suspect that the airlines will just cancel all flights as the logistics of operating any sort of transfer of services will just be too great to manage, eayjet and Ryanair will probably shut up shop for the day as will BA European and Domestic. With notice I think the long haul airlines will either cancel or delay flights. The only way other airports would benefit is if there were wildcat strikes and flights were already airborne.

Just my opinion

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

One of the key factors to remember is that MAN itself has frequent scheduled services to all seven BAA Airports in the UK: LHR / LGW / STN / SOU / GLA / EDI / ABZ. Services to all of these would be lost.

Whilst there is always a possibility of picking up *some* extras - with the provisos mentioned by previous posters above - MAN would actually need a substantial haul to avoid showing a deficit on the whole sorry affair.

But we can still hope for the occasional gem for enthusiasts!

SHED.

[Ian Brooks]

Ryanair, BA,Easy will probably shut down for day and claim lost monies off BAA
through legal channels

Ian

[MAN777]

Dont think BAA will be liable, they will have to sue the union !!, I think a joint multi million law suit from all the airlines effected would just about see off the union for good.

[This Charming Man]

The following are planned to op into MAN should the BAA Strike go ahead.

VIR2 , 4 , 10 ,64 and 373
ETD11 and 17
SIA308

[spannersatcx]

You never know then, you might see a CX pax flight there.:eek:

[TechProblem]

For all the days of the panned strikes, MAN has no more slots left, and are now refusing any request.

[MAN777]

I dont think its shortage of slots, its the lack of logistical ability to handle excessive extra movements, Manchester Airport can handle an impressive number of movements and has many spare stands, an example being the Champions league final a number of years ago, but at this time of the year staffing levels in all areas are chopped to the bone, with not much flexibility to increase at short notice. I think you will find it is the handling agents that are declining handling requests.

[1station]

The difference between the possible strikes and the guaranteed Champions League final is just that. The strikes may happen. Around 12 months of planning went into the Champions League Final when at Manchester. Best case Manchester has had 3 weeks notice of iminent strikes. On CL day runway 2 was used as a extended ramp with countless exec jets and MD's parked over there. There is simply no time to set this up in time logistically.

I believe however tech problem is partly correct. It is not a case of no slots being available any more it is just the fact all slot applications are being handled manually for these particular dates.

If the strikes go ahead, the traditional handlers of Ad-Hoc flights, Ocean Sky and Flight Support are no doubt going to be busy as well as Servisair in particular who have a hell of alot of 'diversion' contracts on their books. Lets just hope BAA sort out this mess and the 7th, 14th, 17th & 18th are just normal days at the office.

[Playamar2]

Have revised their schedule for 2008 and now all 3 routes Koln,Stutgart and Hanover will be daily ex.Sat.

Morning flights on Mon & Tues, evenings on Sun,Wed,Thu & Fri.

Playamar2

[Mr A Tis]

Playamar, this was brought to our attention in post #1572 last week by Viscount.

The morning departures would enable some possible connections with X3 further afield ( albeit on a point to point basis)

Its a shame we haven't got a lo co on the TXL or MUC (yet)

[ls_jet2]

We had a lo-co to Berlin, albeit SXF, but we dropped it on account of it being under-utilised. What makes TXL so different:confused:

Bit like a lot of the routes we've started and subsequently dropped, for which we have been castigated:ouch:, but if people had supported these routes they'd still be served. We can't be expected to continue to operate services that don't get adequate load factors.

[FlyZB]

Agreed. However if Jet2 had put more thought and effort into their new routes and maybe given them a bit of time to flourish, then they may have been more successful. Another PRG service on a saturated route, a 1 x daily to CDG in the middle of the day (surprisingly still operating), a 1900 departure to TLS & a 1925 departure to BCN are not attractive!

[Mr A Tis]

Unusually I agree with ZB.
The bucket & spade flights leave at times when the city flights should be going.
The BCN times were hopeless.
WAW was dropped in favour of the saturated PRG, leaving it now for Central Wings to mop up.
TXL is much closer to the city than SXF, & at the time BACON flew to TXL, for many business people TXL was prefered.
The LS route strategy appears to be ill thought out & erratic as far as MAN is concerned.

[MAN777]

Another example of a bad timing route is the Volareweb to Milan Malpensa (soon to be dropped) That arrives MXP just before midnight, so by the time you get transport to the city its 1 AM, what good is that to business and short break pax. I flew on it recently 30 pax outbound, 30 pax inbound.

[Playamar2]

MAN777

As a good comparison the new Ryanair flight to Milan Bergamo arrives at 23.45hrs to we will see what the loads are like on that. Granted, Ryanair are more of a household name that Volareweb especially in the UK, so I expect it will be better supported.

[MAN777]

I presume that will be a Bergamo based Ryanair aircraft on its last rotation of the day ? Midnight, an hours drive from Milan ! Dont think there will be any business users on that flight then. It will have to be cheap to attract the PAX that will put up with that inconvenience, the Volare web tickets were given away and still there were only 30 on board !

[Ian Brooks]

Ryanair has a lead over Volaweb already, Press coverage! all over the Evening News, BBC and ITV local news and of course it is all free as well

Ian

[Sam-MAN]

Arn't we expecting an EZY announcement today?

[philly]

tommorow. 1st jan

[MAN777]

I would have thought that the 1st of Jan would be a poor day for any announcement, arent people nursing hangovers, tucking into leftover turkey and watching crap tv repeats ? Why would anyone be taking notice of easyjet on this day ?

[MUFC_fan]

when are people most likely to think about holidays?

In between xmas and new year when you are rushed off of your feet trying to sort yourselves out whether it be returning gifts, planning parties, xmas sales etc? No.

New year, new resolution, new holiday. The week after new year is probably the most likely time people look for holidays (correct me if I'm wrong) as the festivities are over and the new year looks bleek without a jolly to look forward to. Step in EZY.

Big announcement, ITV, BBC etc. over next couple of days not to mention all the publicity they will be slapping around Manchester! Personally, I think their timing is perfect and if they are to launch in Feb which has been said then they need to get the seats on sale as soon as possible!

I'm seriously looking forward to tomorrow. What time are the flights announced? 6am? 8am? Planning on being one of the first to book flights (permitting my condition after midnight tonight! ;)!)

Hope everybody has an excellent new year tonight and hope to discuss the EZY routes tomorrow!

[philly]

yep lol. my friend works in a travel agent and JAN is the busiest time of year to book holidays there even open longer than usual.ezy could not be better timing and good on them,it will bypass ryanair.

[MAN777]

OK, I will have it, but it better be cheap ! or thats all I will be doing, "thinking" about a holiday !!:)

[Gordon_uk3]

Is there going to be an announcemant tomorrow or is it just that the GB Airways flights will go on sale as Easyjet flights as from tomorrow.

Reading other posts I dont think we will hear of any additional flights, but please let me be wrong.

Gordon

[eggc]

The GB S08 MAN routes are on sale now on BA website, and will remain so until the aquisition of GB is complete at the end of Jan ?
Therefore, I take it that if seats are on sale tomorrow on EZYs website then either A) GB is theirs early and it is the GB routes or B) Its not GB routes yet, but a selection of other new routes. You decide...or better still wait till morning :ok:
Happy New Year :}

[chiglet]

Saw a poster today EZY, MAN-TFS £44....
Presume it's a Gerbli a/c
watp,iktch

[take-off]

why dont you guys lok on easyjet website, tells you on there what dest, are available to book from 1 jan!!!!!
Says Crete , Cyprus, Malta and Tenerife south:ok::ok:

Should see some interesting prices for tfs hopefully, wonder who will pull off that route first? Me thinks Ls as tom have charter to back them up as wel as sched! Just need FR to do tfs from man as well to bring prices right down!!!!

[viscount702]

I am afraid the routes for sale are only the GT routes .

Now showing on Website

Viscount

[airhumberside]

TOM have reduced Venice from scheduled LoCo to a once weekly charter next summer

[Lashamcat]

Going into the easyJet system you can also book flights to Innsbruck up to 13th April (Sundays only I Think) and Malaga daily from 1st May

[Mr A Tis]

Yes TOM dipped their toe into lo co schedules at MAN last year, but have now well and truly retreated.
They have basicaly kept MAN flights as holiday charters, with spare seats filled up via the Thomsonfly web site.
I sampled one of these flights a few months ago, where the IFE was aimed exclusively at children & the pre paid expensive meals were abysmal.
Another missed oppurtunity to develop some much needed city flights, even if they are not daily. At least we know where we stand with TOM now.
TUI fly (HLX) seem to do a much better job & Air Berlin seem to have pretty good consistant loads.

[viscount702]

Very much as most people were expecting only the old GT routes plus AGP.

Unfortunately even they haven't got off to a good start as nothing has been loaded properly on the website. Nothing showing for PFO and only outward flights for remainder. HER seems to be the only Destination where outward and return are showing.

I would have thought that EZY could have done a bit better than this and added a least a few destinations other than GT ones using non MAN based aircraft to start off with.

Any further news on the new WW destinations.

Viscount

[IB4138]

AGP is a re-introduction of the route GT cancelled, even down to the timings, when they went down to one based aircraft.

Back to two based aircraft, so the route returns.

[philly]

so the routes are
CRETE - HERAKLION
CYPRUS-PAPHOS
INNSBRUCK
MALAGA
MALTA
TENERIFE SOUTH
not bad.

[Anna's Dad]

Does anyone think there is any prospect of easyjet announcing further routes in the near future? My wife needs to book something soon to fly to Geneva in May and I have been giving her some hope, after keeping in touch with this thread, that there might be something from MAN after all, what with the arrival of EZY, rather than having to travel to LPL (we are 10 mins from MAN).

Many thanks.

[MAN Guy]

I would certainly expect Easyjet to introduce more and more destinations from MAN as they build up the base over the next couple of years.... Madrid, Geneva (needs decent frequency) and Berlin are still going begging from MAN for starters.

I think for this summer all we will see is the ex-GB stuff being served but things should look up later in the year once they've got their feet under the table.

[Ringwayman]

The extent of easyJet's summer operations is as mentioned - there's little scope for them to add routes using a MAN based aircraft and as for routes using foreign-based aircraft, I imagine all those flying programmes have been finalised.

However, I'd find it very hard to believe if GVA did not appear as a new route for winter 2008/9; whether they'd operate with a GVA or MAN based aircraft probably depends on how big a programme they want the 2 A320s at MAN to have during the winter and/or whether there's to be a 3rd aircraft based from winter 2008 or from summer 2009.

Best bet for Geneva in May may appear to be Saudi Arabian with their Monday and Friday schedules on 777s - you'd probably have to book seats via a travel agent.

[MUFC_fan]

Will CO EVER upgrade their EWR flights?

Their numbers keep rising on the route and they seem to be happy at staying with 2x daily 752. As AA and DL expand in the UK with new services, aren't CO wanting to gain even more of a stance on the EWR-UK routes or are they now hooked on the LHR frenzy?

The route certainly has more room for growth as DL downgrade their aircraft and BA are guaranteed to make no change (unless they cancel the route!:ugh:) Why not? Maybe a daily 752 ans 762 or EVEN 752 and 764!;)

The route is currently only 2x 752s for S08, could it still be changed?

Cheers.

[aidoair]

As for CO using the 762 on the route in the near future is most unlikely it will be more likely to see the 764 on the route as the 762 has even less seats than the 752 and is used mainly on routes with a much higher demand for seats up front. As had already been mentioned the two flights a day on the 752 are making money and seen to be doing the job jsut fine at the minute but yes would be good to see some variety... especially the 764 back at MAN;)

[MUFC_fan]

Thanks for the reply.

Personally, I would rather see a T7 back in MAN on the EWR route!;) But the route is designed for two daily flights fitting businessmen/women quite well.

Does anybody have a reason why DL aren't bringing back the 764 on the ATL route? We have seen the airline start JFK with 764 daily, then reduced to 763 daily, then 763 5x weekly, now 752 5x weekly - is this route to last? Also, we saw ATL on T7 in March 2003 (used the a/c myself!) and now is down to 763? Surely DL can come up with more than this!

[MAN Guy]

I don't think the DL JFK is in danger of the chop anytime soon, as far as I know DL are still keen on their JFK operations and that includes the European stuff. I think other European stations DL serve have also seen some tweeks or what some might term, "downgrading" of aircraft type too over the last couple of years, not just MAN.

I think its all more of a "fine tuning" exercise trying to get the best aircraft usage for each particular route. Also in the past the DL JFK has gone back up to daily in the summer IIRC so I don't think there is too much to worry about yet.

[MUFC_fan]

BE to add 3rd daily NWI next summer. Also some slight alterations to the NWI timetable, here is the S08 (ex. MAN):

Flight:BE 442 (Flybe)
Depart:Manchester Airport 10 Jun 08:50
Arrive:Norwich 10 Jun 09:55
Aircraft DH4

Flight:BE 444 (Flybe)
Depart:Manchester Airport 10 Jun 16:30
Arrive:Norwich 10 Jun 17:35
Aircraft: DH4

Flight:BE 446 (Flybe)
Depart:Manchester Airport 10 Jun 19:40
Arrive:Norwich 10 Jun 20:40
Aircraft: DH4

[MancRy]

DL have only a limited number 777's and these are needed on other routes that require the range.

[Ringwayman]

BE443/444 to/from NWI does *not* operate daily - it's just Tuesdays and Wednesdays when looking at their timetable.

[OltonPete]

Indeed Manchester is not the only destination to suffer a downgrade
and it is to release 767's for the longer routes such as Delta's new African
services.

These are some of routes with equipment downgrades for 2008 at various
dates: -

JFK-BRU - 763-757
JFK-FRA - 763-757
JFK-CDG - 763-757 (one flight)
JFK-LGW - 763-757
JFK-SNN - 757 - was this a 763 or 764 via DUB?
JFK-MAN - 763-757
CVG-AMS- 763-757
ATL-SNN - 764-757
ATL-EDI - 763-757
ATL-MAN - 764-763

Additional 757 routes will be Orly - JFK, LYS - JFK, EDI-JFK & AGP-JFK.

AMS-JFK was also rumoured to drop to a 757 but it is still showing as a
763 (Delta have allegedly secured 17 ex TWA ETOPs 757).

The only slight worry for Manchester is that they intend sending 757's
across the pond from ATL. However even in winter the MAN figures hold up well so there should be no threat there.

If you sift out the rubbish on a.net there are one or two posters who
know their stuff about CO & DL especially and are worth a read.

The only CO rumours I have read about for the UK was a possible NCL-
Newark and it was claimed they considered a 764 for EDI before going for
the double daily 757. It seems CO is more than stretched with it's 762, 764 and 777 flying and Manchester appears to be stuck with 2 x 757.
They do have 41 ETOPs 757 and not all are allocated to transatlantic flying yet but this won't interest MAN I am sure unless a third flight was
ever considered!!!!

Pete

[MUFC_fan]

Thanks for the info on the NWI route. I just checked on OAG and didn't look at other dates!:O

OltonPete - the MAN-ATL is currently a 763 so not being downgraded. Sometimes the airline uses a 764, whether due to a/c shortages or demand I don't know but I can see what your saying. As the openskies comes into effect, US airlines seem to be cutting capacity!:ugh:

Well...except from the Holy Grail that is London Heathrow.:rolleyes:

[viscount702]

I see WW are recruiting Polish speaking cabin crew for all 4 bases which includes MAN.

Can we take it that WW will eventually announce some new routes from MAN including Poland to fill the gaps in the timetable

Viscount

[FlyZB]

As I understand it, WW have had discussions with the MAN management with regards to new routes from Summer 2008 and on their website it clearly states that new offerings from Manchester will be announced shortly. However, this has been the case for a while now with obviously nothing announced to date. Have they gone cold with the arrival of EZY & FR? Polish routes would mirror their expansion from other bases but Centralwings have taken on the more obvious polish destinations. What else is left? Perhaps they can take on some of the routes ditched by Jet2?

[bmi expat]

Apparently there is a shortlist of 5 possible new destinations ex MAN for WW, and it wouldn't surprise me if bmibaby HQ were waiting to see what Easyjet announced before finalising their plans. There are plenty of gaps in the summer programme for these new routes so they will definitely be coming. The fourth aircraft returns mid June so expect these routes to commence then.

[Vuelo]

What else is left?

Lisbon (left vacant by TOM)
Madrid (left vacant by BA and ZB)
Berlin (left vacant by BA/AB/LS)
Venice (left vacant by TOM/BA/LS)
Derry )left vacant by BA)
Jerez (left vacant by ZB)
Dubrovnik (left vacant by GT)
Amsterdam (left vacant by BA/LS)
Toulouse )left vacant by LS)
Viena (left vacant by BA)
Nice (left vaca nt by BA/LS)
Bucharest (never operated in recent years)
Riga (left vacant by BT)
Talinn (left vacant by Estonia Air)
CPH (left vacant by DM)


So there at least a few destinations where they could look at serving!

[GLENO]

Yes they could look at serving any one of the mentioned routes above......then pull off the route as soon as they started like they have done in previous years!!:}

[bmi expat]

Apart from PGF and BOD going seasonal at the end of last summer it is a while since bmibaby last fully cancelled a route from MAN is it not? Although I must admit the schedule has been pretty boring with the lack of new routes over the last two years!!!

[MAN Guy]

Correct..... I think the last they chopped completely were Paris and Barcelona and to be fair they were quite a while ago. They may even have served Murcia if my memory serves me correctly on a weekly basis a while back too but that got the chop.

However as mentioned, their offerings from MAN for the last couple of years have been usual run-of-the-mill stuff with little in the way of inspiration. Strangely however, they have been getting really stuck in at BHX jumping on ex-BACON stuff like MAD..... odd they never thought (until now possibly) about doing the same at MAN.

[bmi expat]

Lack of suitable aircraft led to the concentration of the WW reaction to the BACON/flybe merger at BHX. It is a shame that MAN had to miss out on growth last year, but hopefully if the new routes ex MAN are sucessful then we may finally see the long promised growth from MAN from Summer 09.

As usual with the bmi group, any kind of expansion is always very long and carefully drawn out... they don't like change and they don't like risk!!!!

[GLENO]

See that Bmi are increasing the Heathrow flights from Manchester to eight per day witn the introduction of a late evening flight arrival from Heathrow, as per the press release on their website.

[FlyZB]

When I said what else is left, I was referring to alternative Polish routes other than those now served by Centralwings. But of course, you are right. Any one of those destinations listed could be served by WW with a bit of thought and planning. Obvious ones would be LIS & MAD, newly served from BHX and what MAN is crying out for. And why not continue GVA after the ski season has finished? With LS retreating, TOM reverting back to charter, ZB content with sunshine routes and EZY & FR only just starting up, WW have been handed a lifeline. They were the 1st LCC operator at MAN but they have been slow expanding and in recent years have fallen behind. Now they have a second chance. Will they take it? Looking at the recent history of the bmi group as a whole, I sincerely doubt it!

[aidoair]

I think Lisbon, Madrid and Nice would be good destiantions for Baby to pick up and they fit into their route network served from other bases. Also Toulouse would be a good route for them to bring back albeit with a better timing than what Jet2 offered as i think this was probably their downfall on the route. Finnally not too long ago there was a strong rumour that Londonderry was going to be a new route from Manchester with the most likely and most rumoured airline to be operating the route being Bmibaby. Lets hope they do bring some more destinations though would be good to see them expand a little... something we havn't seen them do much lately other than at Birmingham.

[ls_jet2]

Nice is still served by Jet2.

[FlyZB]

The difference being that Jet2's MAN-NCE route is operated during the summer months only whereas WW can sustain Nice services year round. One of Jet2's biggest downfalls, simply assuming that no-one would want to travel to such destinations during the winter without even testing the water.

[AirLCY]

NCE doesnt work well year round from MAN, BA used to cut to 2 or 3 E145's in the winter and still not fill them - didnt make money

[MUFC_fan]

Finnally not too long ago there was a strong rumour that Londonderry was going to be a new route from Manchester with the most likely and most rumoured airline to be operating the route being Bmibaby.


If WW don't take it, I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't become an FR destination IF they were to base aircraft at MAN (which I think they will have to do if they are to keep up with EZY in the North West which is the second biggest market in the UK)

[MUFC_fan]

BA to introduce A321 on MAN-LHR flights from summer season replacing 752s.

As BMI increase their frequency, they will also be decreasing their ER4 usage on the route, bringing in more A319/20 aircraft which is always good!

TOM to increase TLV flights to 3x weekly from next summer also.

[Mr A Tis]

AirLCY, I wouldn't take BACON as a good yardstick, they couldn't fill anything to anywhere at anytime. eg Lufty carried more people to FRA in C class than BACON could muster in their entire aircraft.
Some of the most unlikeliest routes seem to have been sustained ex LPL over the winters. With the right marketing, timings frequency & pricing many routes can survive the winters.

[dollydaydream]

For some reason I am unable to quote but.....


in response to 'they couldn't fill anything to anywhere at any time' I wondered where you got your information from.
I must have been in a permenant hallucinogenic state as I more often than not flew on a full or almost full aircraft:eek:

Since the days of Flybe the loads have dropped.

[GLENO]

Mr Tis


Same here Dollydaydream.......Madrid was always full when I used to use the service..................

[uncovered]

I know facts are in short supply on P-Prune but had to add a few here-

A) BACON lost over a million a year for a number of years on Madrid.

B) Flybe's market shares on the routes they retained at MAN are way in excess of Bacon's.

Please feel free to return to speculation.

[dollydaydream]

As has been said many times Connect was set up to sell, figures and statistics can be juggled/manipulated, call it what you will...

I am not speculating I was merely talking about bums on seats - lots of them with Connect not as many with Flybe. I don't need to speculate I see for myself.

[JobsaGoodun]

I can't help but feel that following the change from CitiExpress to Connect, BA's yield management team took a holiday.

More 'bums on seats' maybe.....but at what yield.

I guess the main difference now, is that many of the BACon routes under Flybe's high ancilliary revenue model are making money even with fewer passengers.

As 'uncovered' has said, Flybe's market share on the ex BACon routes has increased which points towards better times ahead.

[AirLCY]

Agree with some of the points re Bacon - but you must remember that Flybe's market share is bound to be better than Bacon's - Flybe was one of the main competitors! NCE may work year round for somebody, but prob twice a week which must include a Sat service, maybe more in Feb as a massive trade fair in NCE.

The whole reason Bacon was created was to lower fares and grow pax volume, so assume yields would have reduced, but Bacon didnt have the benefit of ripping people off charging £6 per bag each way or whatever it is now on Flybe. £6 per pax on Bacons few million pax would have helped the loss making airline.

Also you need to remember with FRA that 70 to 80% of LH pax are connecting to the worldwide network in the same way as 80% of BA LHR traffic is connecting.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Slightly off thread, But I went on ZB's site earlier this week, They said that if you booked by Wed 2 Jan you will save £20 each way on 'ALL' flights for travel upto March 08.

Checked out MAN - AGP it was exactly the same price as it was weeks ago, for the same flight No change.

Checked out MAN - ALC again same price as before for same flights??:eek:

Where was the £20 each way discount then??:ugh:

Was it another Marketing stunt??

I would have booked, But it still didn't work out any cheaper with the £5 per way seat allocation charge.:zzz:

The whole exercise drove me loopy:*

Any answers please.....:ok:

[MUFC_fan]

Usually, you save £5 per sector per person, but if you look at how much you save 'by not doing it over the phone' then it should say £30 per person:

£10 2 sectors
£20 saving

£30 Total

Hope this helps!:ok:

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Cheers MUFC Fan, It didn't make any sense at all, On ZB's site it said £20 off each way, But the price was exactly the same as what I saw weeks ago. Where was the discount??

MAN - ALC FRI 18 JAN 0715 out - 2230 back = £56 + £10 for seats.

If they did scrap the seat charges, They would sell more seats;)

[lexxity]

With regards to WW I have heard MAD and Warsaw or Krakow.

[MUFC_fan]

Cheers MUFC Fan, It didn't make any sense at all, On ZB's site it said £20 off each way, But the price was exactly the same as what I saw weeks ago. Where was the discount??

MAN - ALC FRI 18 JAN 0715 out - 2230 back = £56 + £10 for seats.

If they did scrap the seat charges, They would sell more seats;)


Maybe the fare you origionally saw had sold and they went up £20 in the first place. This often happens with supermarkets. You an go in one week and they have increased prices for an unknown reason, then the next week they put the product on 'buy one get one free' etc. and then the NEXT week they return to normal! (Or something like that!:confused:)

Selling £5 seat allocations is just another way of making money, just like FR do with check-in etc.

[Vuelo]

WW announcement next week?

[Mr A Tis]

Wouldn't mess about with the Monarch "sales" gimmicks, EZY from LPL far cheaper, espcially on the BCN, saving about £40 each way per person on the MON fares on the dates I want.

[IB4138]

Booked with EZY, AGP-MAN return for September at the weekend. €89 return.

Similar timed EZY flights on same days to/from LPL are €180.

ZB for the dates in question were in excess of €200.

[Bummer]

Has PPRuNe turned into a fare comparison website ? :ugh:

[GLENO]

Right..........anybody any news on the following?

Air Asia-- starting ot not?
Bmibaby--announcement of new routes?

[dh dragon]

Just announced.ZB to fly MAN-LCA from 18 MAY "UP TO " 5 flights a week.Booking on website now.:D

[Mr @ Spotty M]

dh, where have you been sleeping, was announced and reported before xmas.

[MUFC_fan]

Right..........anybody any news on the following?

Air Asia-- starting ot not?
Bmibaby--announcement of new routes?


AirAsia - yes. And there is a certain reason for this involving a certain football club. Can't guess which one...:ok:

Not sure about Bmibaby though, but if they want to keep up at what looks like a growing MAN (which personally I think is only going to get quicker) then they better get in early because if MAN's predictions and FR/EZY etc. expansion continues as it does, then getting their feet under the table early may not only benefit their MAN base but may also fund further growth in the airlines.

Been looking at the ZB MAN-LCA schedule and on the Wednesday, there are two flights inbound! (01:25&21:40 dept)! So - EZY/BA, ZB and CY all on the LCA route before charters! Interesting route to watch next summer!:ok:

[MancRy]

EZY/BA to LCA? You mean PFO right?

[MUFC_fan]

Sorry- meant PFO!

MAN-Cyprus is going to be an interesting sector next summer!;)

[Sam-MAN]

Well, Cyprus is a great country :ok:

[MAN777]

If you take a look at this link from the trip reports section of Airliners.net and scroll down to the Air Asia A330 photos you will see MUFC plastered all over the engines also MUFC placards in the terminal, so Air Asia seem to be milking MUFC on more than their special scheme A320, or is it MUFC milking Malaysia ?
Either way I think the A330 will look grand gracing MANs concrete.


http://www.airliners.net/discussions/trip_reports/read.main/112682/?threadid=112682&searchid=112939&s=asia#ID112939

[FlyZB]

With regards to Air Asia have you heard anything definate or are you just guessing? Back in October, their top bosses visited the airport and a few days later I heard through a few of the terminal managers that the possibility of them starting MAN-KUL was very likely. Since then all has gone quiet and I assume an announcment is expected soon but whether or not it is good news for Manchester, I cannot say for sure.

[ExpectmorePayless]

Quote: Booked with EZY, AGP-MAN return for September at the weekend. €89 return. Similar timed EZY flights on same days to/from LPL are €180.
ZB for the dates in question were in excess of €200. Unquote

But customers will always choose to fly with ZB because they CARE :}
When you ask where the hot towel service has gone, why there is no longer a free newspaper, why you now have to pay extra for your meal, hold baggage, seat reservation and scratch card...they just SMILE :O

LowFare-MoreCare - mmm...think I might have to change my name :hmm:

[BHX5DME]

December 2007
Pax - 1,415,398 down 1.57%
Air Trans Move - 15,079 down 1.82%

2007 Total
Pax - 22,362,106 down 4.39%
Air Trans Mov - 222,670 down 3.07%
Ian

[BHX5DME]

December 2007
Pax - 1,415,398 down 1.57%
Air Trans Move - 15,079 down 4.39%

2007 Total
Pax - 22,362,106 down 1.82%
Air Trans Mov - 222,670 down 3.07%

[Scottie Dog]

Intrigued as to where you get your figures from as nothing published on the Manchester Airport website, and the CAA figures are not due out until 14th January.

Think I will wait another week and then see what is published. Do your figures include transit passengers/movements, or are they purely relating to terminal traffic?

[tigermike]

Figures are now published on the Man website. Novembers have now been updated at last!:)
Look under about us, archive, traffic stats

[Scottie Dog]

Thanks for that - that will teach me to look in the right place!!

[viscount702]

I see they have now announced WAW from BHX but nothing yet from MAN

[OltonPete]

Surely only a matter of time?

There are gaps in the schedule that they will fill, won't they?

I know Baby tend to cut some slack even with their summer schedules but at least two routes must be on the cards?

Thought BHX might have got two but one is better than nowt.

Pete

[MAN Guy]

So yet more WW expansion from BHX but still no further news about the promised MAN expansion :ugh: Hopefully you're right OltonPete and its just a matter of time.

Any further rumours / news on what routes they are thought to be considering? I know MAD and WAW were mentioned on here.......I can understand MAD obviously but not sure why they would want to chase WAW with Centralwings all over this route already.

[Ian Brooks]

You still cannot book Centralwings to Warsaw after 28th March

Ian

[AndyH52]

Surely any plans WW may have had for further expansion out of MAN have gone out of the window now? They were finding it hard enough to compete with EZY / RYR before MAG decided to invite the big two to have a slice of the pie as well. :confused:

[MUFC_fan]

If WW can compete with the two airlines at a small airport like EMA, then I think MAN wouldn't be so much bother for them.

If WW can get their feet under the table and find routes that NEED services (MAD etc.) before EZY/FR get in, then they maybe able to pull it off. Remember, they are supported by a very large airline and can dig deep if needs be but I personally think they have the opportunity before next winter when the two airlines will start to push their weight around.

If LCCs want to get into the MAN market - the deadline is this summer - less there will be no point after as EZY and FR REALLY will start to flex their muscles!:ok:

[Going loco]

So, WW should deploy an expansion programme immediately because MAN "needs" some routes and if they act now, it will make EZY or FR rethink any plans they might have about expanding. Call me unconventional, but airlines will operate routes when they believe there is enough people prepared to pay a high enough price to make it worthwhile. The notion that airlines operate services into airports because the airport "needs" that service to plug a hole in its route network is nonsense, As is the idea that there is a "deadline" for anyone to do anything. The market is so fast moving and susceptible to changes in the economy that the market for services next summer could look completely different to this summer and if FR and EZY are committed to more expansion, they will do this regardless of what WW might do.

[MUFC_fan]

1. Where did I say that EZY/FR would re-think? I clearly said that if they want to get a better stance in the MAN market they will need to act before EZY and FR flood the market.
2. Where did you get the 'plug a hole in the schedule' from?!:eek: MAD, LIS, BER etc. are routes that are wanted by passengers in the region.
3. There is no 'deadline', if any airline wants to get a grip in at the airport they should do so before this time for a much easier chance than after EZY and FR move in.

Anyway, I personally think LH will replace the Berlin route if EZY or WW don't jump in soon, which doesn't look likely. Twice daily 737/A320 anyone?:ok:

[Ringwayman]

LH will not look to add Berlin. What may happen from them is (a) bigger aircraft on existing services e.g. A321s on all the FRA services or (b) adding a
5th service to FRA/4th service to MUC/3rd service to HAM (take your pick!)

IF a German carrier wants to add Berlin, perhaps Air Berlin may be the ones (even though they've tried it once!)

[SkinHeadFlyer]

ABs efforts last time were via STN which was a bit of a faff and with BAA charges made the whole thing expensive.

They were also in competition with Jet2 but they ditched the route last October at the same time as AB.

After my recent experiences with the "orange one" -I don't care which carrier takes it on, as long as it's german. The others including BACON have made a pigs ear of MAN-TXL/SXF.

Believe me, there is loads of potential on this route...

[ls_jet2]

MUFC Fan - The reason that there's no services to BER, MAD and LIS is that when the services were there insufficient people used them to make them financially viable to continue operating:ugh:.

Skin head flyer - You also seem to be of the opinion that a Berlin route should be a winner, why then did we regularly only get loads in the 40's:sad:.

I'm afraid that these wish list routes that a few people on here think would do well just haven't been supported, by all means let Ezy or Ryr have a crack to see if they can make it work, but don't say that others haven't tried and have been forced to withdraw their offerings due to the lack of bums on seats:{.

[FlyZB]

Not necessarily true. EZY can make MAD work out of LPL and I would say that has a smaller catchment area than MAN. Likewise, Berlin works well out of Liverpool. Making a route successful needs a mix of good marketing, decent timings and frequencies and competitive fares. This is something that EZY and FR do well. The reputation of these airlines also benefits them greatly.

Now lets look at the MAN examples given by ls jet2.

MAD - served by BA Citiflyer initially which changed to Connect. Business & economy full service replaced by one class buy on board. The Connect product was poor, high yield pax opted for other services and despite the fact that it operated over 90% full most days, it still lost money. FlyBE decided not to take it on for this reason. ZB also had a shot at the route. Loads on their flights averaged around the 100 pax mark which wouldn't have been all that bad if it was operated on a smaller a/c but on a 174 seater A320, ZB knew that the aircraft could be better utilised elsewhere. So 2 almost full BA Connect flights everyday and 100 pax plus on ZB. Can hardly say there's lack of demand can you!

BER - AB operated this route initially with timings that were far from attractive. The MAN-TXL leg wasn't so bad but the TXL-MAN leg left Berlin at around 6am if my memory serves me correctly. The after initial loads were poor, they tweaked the schedule several times and messed with the frequencies to the point that anyone considering using the service on a regular basis didn't know where they stood. And as far as the LS service goes, that was poorly timed and poorly marketed. A friend of mine travels to Berlin regularly and he didn't even know the Jet2 service existed!

LIS - Thomsonfly does very well on this route. Loads have generally been very good, maybe dropped off a bit in Nov and Dec but that's to be expected. The main reason this is being dropped is because TOM are moving away from the low cost scheduled side of their operation and back to package charters. Therefore this route no longer features in their long term plans and the aircraft is being utilised elsewhere for the Summer. Again, hardly due to lack of demand.

There is demand for these places from MAN, its just a question of the right airline and the right attitude. Clearly the likes of Jet2 have been unsuccessful because they have not achieved the right mix to ensure that the routes are a success. EZY and FR have what it takes to make these routes work and this has been proven at LPL. The demand is there, potential passengers just need to be attracted by the right overall product.

[Mr A Tis]

Oh dear, is it groundhog day ?
We had all these discussions only a few weeks ago re Berlin, Madrid etc etc.
eg BA flew full to Madrid twice a day, but lost millions etc etc
Jet 2 flew city routes - but at crap time etc etc

Things move on & times change. There are 2 flights a day now from LPL to MAD, so the region is served. No need for any more.

BCN is twice a day ex LPL & once from MAN, 3 flights from the region is enough.

Berlin & LIS are served perfectly well from LPL-there are not thousands of people waiting for another service.

Get real, any new routes from MAN will be few & far between & wont be to the detriment of existing services from the region. Even the dreaded Ryanair picked "alternative" routes for their splurge into the MAN scene.

[EC-ILS]

This time last year I wouldnt have said LH would start DUB-TXL but they are albeit only 3 weekly with a CRJ why wouldnt they give MAN a go?

[GLENO]

Mr A Tis,

We are talking about services from Manchester!!!!,not Speke/Liverpool/ John Lennon/Ken Dodd or what ever it is called now!! We all know that they have services to the mentioned Airports from there............

[BombardierCR7]

QUOTE BER - AB operated this route initially with timings that were far from attractive. The MAN-TXL leg wasn't so bad but the TXL-MAN leg left Berlin at around 6am if my memory serves me correctly. The after initial loads were poor, they tweaked the schedule several times and messed with the frequencies to the point that anyone considering using the service on a regular basis didn't know where they stood. And as far as the LS service goes, that was poorly timed and poorly marketed. A friend of mine travels to Berlin regularly and he didn't even know the Jet2 service existed!

I found the MAN-SXF well scheduled for both business and leisure. I used it many many times on business, (Berlin is a tourist city, not a business one so I am in the vast minority as a pax type on this route) and was more convenient than any other operator to Berlin previously from MAN, and last summer, any other direct option north of London. As for advertising, the Jet2 product appeared, and still appears on most bus shelters, buses and billboards around the north of England. It's difficult to miss it.

I rarely saw the route with over 20 pax per flight with BA Connect, and normally midweek with LS at about 40, stretching to 100 or so on a Friday night.

Perhaps the route just doesn't work.

[FlyZB]

Yes and I truly believe there is demand for flights to certain places, MAD definately, from both MAN & LPL. However I do agree with Mr A Tis in the sense that some destinations will not succeed from both MAN & LPL as it will over saturate the market from this region. Many of these destinations are regulars on the LPL departure board and it is unlikely they will make their way onto the MAN departure baords anytime soon, at least as far as EZY & FR is concerned. The last thing they want to do is compete against their own services 30 miles down the road.

Going loco makes a good point in tha airlines will not just start routes because there is a gap to plug, they will start routes if it is going to make them money. There are however gaping holes on the departure boards at MAN to destinations that will succeed from the airport. It is up to one of the airports operators, LCC or otherwise, to realise the potential. I think that's what MUFC fan is getting it when he talks about WW. They have to see the potential before someone else gets in there. Many routes will only sustain one carrier but if it's marketed well, it can make that carrier money. It wont be Jet2. They've tried and failed. Maybe their brand just isn't as widely recognised as other carriers.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

How are SAS doing on their routes, You never read or hear much about their Pax figures??

They must be doing ok, They have always being loyal to MAN.

I love the SAS MD81's - Roar:D

[Mr A Tis]

GLENO

Manchester had two daily MADs when Liverpool had none & it was non viable.

Now LPL have the two MADs in the hands of different cost base operators & MAN has none.

Therefore the region remains well served to MAD & is why nobody has been rushing in to start another one.

Likewise, TOM had a stab at LIS, however it started before EASY came in on LPL-LIS. Now that the EZY service is established, TOM drop the MAN.

You simply can't diregard whats on offer 30 miles away. The LPL services have an impact on what MAN can offer. You MAN fans simply have your head in the sands dreaming about all these routes.
It simply aint viable for airlines to compete on many (but not all) routes between the two airports.:ugh:

[Ian Brooks]

As has been stated before TOM are dropping LIS because they have stopped doing city destinations

Ian

[Mr A Tis]

LIS was dropped before the TOM change of policy anyway.

[GLENO]

Mr A Tis,

I have often used and still use services from LPL, when the Manchester alternative is not available/time efficient ........and I for one have not got my head in the sand....A spokesman for Manchester airport clearly stated last year when Bacon pulled off the Madrid route that they were in talks within another airline and the route would back up and running by the Winter........well by my reckoning it ain't Summer and hey no route!!!!

What business people want is Early departure late return?? correct me if i am wrong not something that is on offer I believe from Liverpool on the Madrid service as the flights are not operated daily by Ryanair, only Easyjet with an afternoon departure with an evening arrival into Madrid is daily.

just my 2p worth.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Mr A Tis,

You keep banging on about "the region". A region can be defined as anything you want it to be. Does it include East Midlands, Birmingham and Leeds too? Perhaps we can go for a bigger "region" and include the London Airports. As far as my travel arrangements are concerned, the only "region" which interests me is Greater Manchester (and my destination "region"). Manchester is where I live and it is where I travel from. I am no more interested in flying from Liverpool to Madrid than in flying from Cairo to Madrid ... I don't live in those cities and services from them are for the folks who do live there.

I have friends who live in Merseyside and they fly from Liverpool. That is logical. I do not live in Liverpool so I do not fly from Liverpool. That is also logical. So for my travel plans, I am not interested in what airlines offer from the "region" which I call Merseyside; they can market their wares to Liverpudlians and good luck to them. I am interested in flights from Manchester. And if flights direct from Manchester are not available then I will change planes at an en-route hub. Quite simple.

If the airlines want my business they must collect me at Manchester. If they would rather market themselves to other communities that is fine, but I will not be booking with them. Manchester and Liverpool are two very different cities and the residents of either will confirm that for you if you ask them. On this thread, I am interested in reading what services are set to be operated from Manchester; if I want to know about developments from Merseyside I will consult the Liverpool thread. The two are not interchangeable; that is why they have their own individual threads on PPRUNE.

Cheers, SHED.

[ESCNI]

Heavens! :eek:

.....and I thought that we could be bigoted.





;)

Incidentally, by my reckoning (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=liverpool+airport+to+manchester&safe=active&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl) it's only about 25 miles from Liverpool Airport to the outskirts of Greater Manchester......mostly by motorway!

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

ESCNI,

Why do you mention the distance by motorway between Manchester and Liverpool? It does not make them the same place; rather it confirms that they are not the same place which is my point. What is bigoted about pointing out that Liverpool and Manchester are not the same place? They are not. That's just the way it is.

And motorways are not the answer for everybody. I choose not to run a car. I believe that if I decided to walk down this convenient motorway to Liverpool which you refer to I could expect to be arrested or run over. It is dangerous to generalise when it comes to identifying a business market.

Please enlighten me as to why it is bigoted to point out that MAN and LPL Airports serve different cities. They just do!

Cheers, SHED.

[Going loco]

and people wonder why the history of the world is littered with death and destruction in the name of territory and land. how depressing

[MUFC_fan]

I think people are forgetting something, especially Mr A Tis. What about the people in Oldam, Rochdale etc? It certainly isn't 25 miles to LPL from there and LBA/DSA don't offer the destinations that are on offer from LPL as an alternative to MAN. Yes, it is ok if you live in St. Helens, Warrington etc. where there is a choice for both but MAN is and always will be, the main airport.

I find it hard to believe that a service to the Spanish capital won't work where Barcelona region has 3x daily BCN and soon to be 18x weekly GRO from the region. You say that EZY/FR won't use same routes from both airports, please explain: GRO (FR - MAN, LPL, BLK), BGY (FR - MAN, LPL), DUB (MAN, LPL, BLK), SNN (MAN, LPL), AGP (EZY - MAN, LPL) or are we jus ignoring them?;) The reason these routes are working is that they have DEMAND. And other routes will also be able to work becuase not everyone lives between LPL and MAN! There is East of MAN!:rolleyes:

[symphonyangel]

Latest CAA Survey shows 800,000 passengers per annum going to and from Manchester use Liverpool Airport for flights, many coming from North Manchester.

Most cities Manchester's size have 2 airports, the second being 45 minutes or so away (often the first too). Manchester users have 2 airports close by, and Liverpool/Merseyside users also of course have 2 airports close by. I live in Manchester and tend to use both, so what. To think that when we talk airports for Manchester then we have to only discuss one airport is as parochial a view as i have read in a long time.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Symphonyangel and All,

Parochialism is not the issue here. This thread is called "Manchester". There is another thread called "Liverpool". There is a reason for that. This thread is for discussion of flights from Manchester Airport. I happen to read the Liverpool thread quite frequently, and I no more want to read about MAN services on there than I wish to read postings about LPL services on here. Many folks from both Manchester and Liverpool travel from Heathrow. Do you propose therefore that we should discuss all of Heathrow's services on here when it has got a thread of its own?

For the record - since there appears to be some misunderstanding - I am happy to confirm that I view Liverpool as one of the World's great cities. Pay it a visit in its 2008 Year of Culture and you will surely not be disappointed. There are special events going on, and of course all the old favourites (Waterfront, Three Graces, Albert Dock, Mersey Ferries, Cathedrals, Museums etc) are available as usual. I freely acknowledge that I enjoy taking days out in Liverpool. But what Liverpool is NOT is a convenient start point for a journey from the Manchester area to Continental Europe! Liverpool - wonderful as it is - just ain't on the way from Manchester to Paris! If I am visiting Liverpool I will book my travel arrangements from Liverpool - but if I'm not then obviously I won't! That's not 'parochial' or 'territorial' ... it's just practical.

If in doubt, please read again my original posting on this topic. In no way do I propose any kind of "my city is better than yours" debate. That is not the issue and has no place here. My point relates to the definition of catchment areas and to the selection of a convenient departure point for air travel. Quite simply, Manchester and Liverpool are both fine cities (no argument!). But the same place they are not. So let's keep postings about Liverpool flights in the "Liverpool" thread, postings about Manchester flights in the "Manchester" thread, and likewise for Birmingham, Leeds, East Midlands, Heathrow and so on. Then we will all know where to look for RELEVANT information (without implying dislike for airports which don't belong outside their own threads).

Now then. Would anybody like to discuss Manchester Airport issues on this 'Manchester' thread?

Cheers, SHED.

[dwlpl]

Latest CAA Survey shows 800,000 passengers per annum going to and from Manchester use Liverpool Airport for flights, many coming from North Manchester.

Most cities Manchester's size have 2 airports, the second being 45 minutes or so away (often the first too). Manchester users have 2 airports close by, and Liverpool/Merseyside users also of course have 2 airports close by. I live in Manchester and tend to use both, so what. To think that when we talk airports for Manchester then we have to only discuss one airport is as parochial a view as i have read in a long time.

At the time of the R2 planning enquiry it was said that 6million (out of the MAN figures) air journeys would be better served from Liverpool Airport.

[MUFC_fan]

But they aren't...

Does this include a JFK service?:ouch:

[chiglet]

Most cities Manchester's size have 2 airports, the second being 45 minutes or so away (often the first too). Manchester users have 2 airports close by, and Liverpool/Merseyside users also of course have 2 airports close by. I live in Manchester and tend to use both, so what. To think that when we talk airports for Manchester then we have to only discuss one airport is as parochial a view as i have read in a long time

Errrm, from North East Manchester, LEEDS falls into the 45min category
So we have Three airports....no Blackpool is less than 45mins away from [parts of] Greater Manchester, so we [Manchester] by your criteria have Four Airports....yeah, right
Folks who are able to travel [to a different Airport] will
Those who can't...won't
It's not a willy waving contest.....:= it's a choice for the consumer.
Every Airport has its stregnths and weaknesses. which I am not going to air here.
In the NorthWest of England, we are very lucky to have such a choice of Airlines...so,
let's stick to the threads, please
watp,iktch

[MUFC_fan]

Best at...

MAN: Long haul, full service, charter and regional
LPL: LCC
BLK: Bucket and spade

Simple.

As chiglet says, all three airports have their own 'style' if we can put it that way.

Now lets get back to what this thread is about - Manchester and Manchester alone. Any WW news soon?

[viscount702]

Lets do C0 first.

WAW now on sale at last but down to three per week 2 4 6. They are clearly intended to fit in with the GDN flights but based on the timetable they don't at least in the morning

Flight arrives from GDN at 0820 the flight back to WAW is at 0715.

Return from WAW is 1300 and flight back to GDN at 1345 .

To fit in the flight fron GDN would have to arrive at 0630 or thereabouts to work.

Viscount

[FlyZB]

I reckon this is what bmibaby were waiting to find out. In typical bmi fashion, they love to air on the side of caution and I'm certain they won't launch MAN-WAW now, which according to some posters on here was one of their options. I think bmibaby will sit tight for a bit & see what everyone else is doing. They're leaving it a little late for summer though if they pause for much longer.

[MUFC_fan]

US to reduce PHL equipment from A330-300 to B757-200!:{

...but only for 26 days (04/10/2008-30/10/2008)!;)

Anybody know why?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

At the time of the R2 planning enquiry it was said that 6million (out of the MAN figures) air journeys would be better served from Liverpool Airport.

Don't tell me, Geoff Not_In_My_Bloody_Back_Yard Gazzard at his best.:mad:

What you ommitted to add was that the Government white paper on the matter discarded the claim completely out of hand.

Stoney

[MAN Guy]

In the past US have done short runs of downgrading to 762 ops on the MAN route, one stint was as recently as last year IIRC.

Not sure if this has usually been to do with some 330's being out of action for maintenance or just to cover lower demand on the route at certain times of the year.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

US to reduce PHL equipment from A330-300 to B757-200!

...but only for 26 days (04/10/2008-30/10/2008)!

Anybody know why?

Scheduled maintenance downtime, only with a much tighter schedule next autumn for the fleet as a whole, US only have the 752 available to sub. Works out much cheaper than chartering in something with similar capacity.

And it's only PHL, so is a 752 really a big deal to the punters on such a "short" TATL ?

Stoney

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Chiglet scribes in his own unique style
Errrm, from North East Manchester, LEEDS falls into the 45min category
So we have Three airports....no Blackpool is less than 45mins away from [parts of] Greater Manchester, so we [Manchester] by your criteria have Four Airports....yeah, right
Folks who are able to travel [to a different Airport] will
Those who can't...won't
It's not a willy waving contest..... it's a choice for the consumer.
Every Airport has its stregnths and weaknesses. which I am not going to air here.
In the NorthWest of England, we are very lucky to have such a choice of Airlines...so,
let's stick to the threads, please

Spot on, and agree totally with Shed also. :D

These threads are airport specific for a reason.

I suggest we keep it that way or risk having the Mods save bandwidth by dumping us all in one (un) happy thread stream.

Stoney

[Going loco]

The specific reason the mods have given each airport its own thread to make it easier to find out what is happening where. No problem. But this is absolutely nothing to do with implied catchment areas or a suggestion on the part of PPrune that there isn't competitive interaction between airports and it should never be seen as a green light to censor or inhibit sensible, adult debate about the commercial & business developments with regard to airport management and airline route development. It is completely preposterous to suggest you can have a sensible discussion about some aspects of the route network at MAN without due consideration to what is happening with other airlines and other airports. You can pretend all you want that one airport serves one area and the other serves another, but no-one responsible for airline fleet deployment, route and revenue management or airport business development thinks like that. So why should anyone on here who wants to get a better understanding of how the business works choose to think in that way? In fact it is very odd behaviour as it seems that many posters demonstrate little if any experience of route development or revenue management but on other otherhand are extremely interested in what route planners and revenue managers have in store for MAN. If cabin crew, ATC, security, ground agents or plane spotters want to educate themselves on how and why airlines choose MAN or choose somewhere else then thinking "only mention MAN in the MAN thread" will get you nowhere fast.

Debate about a MAD service is a classic example. People ask questions to the point of obsession about whether this route will operate from MAN but then want a censored answer that completely ignores the capacity being offered from another airport in close proximity. I can't think of anything more ridiculous.

This whole sorry episode reminds me of the film quote;

Nicholson: "You want answers?!!"
Cruise: "I want the truth!!"
Nicholson:"You can't HANDLE the truth..!!"

It would be like trying to respond to a question on the LPL thread asking "would Emirates consider a LPL-DXB service?" with the shackles of not being able to make any reference to the twice daily MAN-DXB service.

[BDLBOS]

US 757's are certainly not comparable to the 333's. My concern is if they do a CO and put two 752's per day to replace the 333. :mad:

[spanishflea]

US 757's are certainly not comparable to the 333's.

They are now they have undergone the envoy refit.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi Going Loco,

I take on board what you say. However, there is a particular problem with this thread (review previous postings at your leisure). Whenever a discussion occurs regarding a potential service from MAN, the usual suspects appear saying that no such service is required because a flight exists to destination XXX from Liverpool. I do not see reciprocal comments of this nature posted on the Liverpool thread (and nor do I want to). The catchment areas of LPL and MAN have an element of overlap, but the airline executives to whom you refer need to be aware that the markets covered by the two are very different (and I suspect that they are well aware).

Of course I acknowledge that airport catchment areas overlap each other; I have made past postings alluding to this fact myself. But as I said yesterday, we could just as easily insert into every discussion a pat answer that no new service is required from MAN (or LPL) to destination XXX because there is an existing service from Heathrow. We could extend this debate and suggest that Northern England requires no air services at all because services exist from London, and we know of plenty of airline planners who consider London and England to be synonymous. Of course, most of us outside London know differently, so diverting every sensible discussion into this cul-de-sac would become tiresome. And that is exactly the problem with the nature of many postings by Liverpool "fans" on this thread. The catchment areas of LPL and MAN overlap, but they are far from identical. The two markets are simply not interchangeable.

Permit me to quote an example, since apparently there is a need to do so. I live in a suburb of Manchester. I decide to book a flight to an airport in Continental Europe. Flights from both airports depart at 07:00 (not an untypical scenario). Let us play Devil's Advocate here and suggest that the Liverpool flight is £30 cheaper. OK, so all the posters on here who regard Manchester and Liverpool as interchangeable will propose that I book the Liverpool departure. But unfortunately, they are not interchangeable are they?

You see, for the journey to Manchester Airport I am looking at a short bus journey (or a walk if luggage is not an issue). But - oh dear - the journey to Liverpool Airport cannot be done in time for an 05:00 check-in! The train to from my local station to Piccadilly, the tram from Piccadilly to Shudehill, the Terravision bus from Shudehill to Liverpool Airport ... just not an option. So a taxi then (£60?). Or I could stay in a hotel close to Liverpool Airport overnight (£60?) and buy an evening meal (£20?). And then I must consider the cost of getting home again when I return. In addition to this, it is important to ask yourself if you think your time is worthless. I happen to believe that my time has value, and if I waste it on unnecessary additional commuting there is a cost to that also (but don't worry ... I won't go into quantifying it here!). So clearly, in my case, the argument that there is no requirement for a service from MAN to XXX because an alternative service exists from LPL does not hold water. When a direct service from MAN is not available, the option of an en-route aircraft change at a hub is usually preferable on the grounds of both cost and overall journey time. If I am a "bigot", a "territorialist" or just "preposterous" for pointing out this inconvenient truth then so be it. I call it being practical.

The fact is that a service from Liverpool will NOT benefit from the same catchment area as a service from Manchester, and the reverse is also true. There are very large numbers of people who are conveniently placed for one of these airports but not the other. I believe it was MUFCfan who quite correctly pointed out that folks in Oldham, Rochdale and Tameside do not consider themselves to be well placed for Liverpool flights and the same is true of many other boroughs.

I have great respect for the role of airline planners and I do comprehend their role (quite well as it happens). They are quite justified in launching flights from Liverpool when their research shows that LIVERPOOL'S catchment area can support them (taking account of the overlap with Manchester). But if they were to believe that a service from Liverpool is going to tap in to the entire Manchester catchment area then they are naive. Fortunately, in reality, I believe that those airline executives do understand that the two markets are very different, and that is why RYR and EZY have recently recognised that if they really want the Manchester market they will have to come here and serve it. Because - I say it again (because apparently I have to) - Manchester and Liverpool are not the same place and their catchment areas (which do overlap) are far from identical.

This is why discussions about Manchester services belong in the Manchester thread, discussions about Liverpool services belong in the Liverpool thread, discussions about LHR/LGW/LBA/BHX/EMA services belong in their respective threads (and yes, I know their catchment areas overlap with Manchester too). Otherwise, we can just shelve all sensible discussion and invite "fans" to promote existing services from their particular favourite airport whenever a destination is under discussion.

All the best. SHED.

[BDLBOS]

Unfortunately, I have to sit in the back. For me they have about the best connection and product out of MAN. Hopefully it is just a MX thing, and they don't think too hard about double daily 752's.

[chiglet]

Thanks Shed, eloquent as ever....
Loco,

It is completely preposterous to suggest you can have a sensible discussion about some aspects of the route network at MAN without due consideration to what is happening with other airlines and other airports. You can pretend all you want that one airport serves one area and the other serves another, but no-one responsible for airline fleet deployment, route and revenue management or airport business development thinks like that. So why should anyone on here who wants to get a better understanding of how the business works choose to think in that way? In fact it is very odd behaviour as it seems that many posters demonstrate little if any experience of route development or revenue management but on other otherhand are extremely interested in what route planners and revenue managers have in store for MAN. If cabin crew, ATC, security, ground agents or plane spotters want to educate themselves on how and why airlines choose MAN or choose somewhere else then thinking "only mention MAN in the MAN thread" will get you nowhere fast.


Sorry, but it is a long quote.
This has been covered in the past. YES, what happens at Manc affects the 'Pool, and Leeds, and to a lesser extent EMA and BHX. I live in East Manchester....:ok: and have flown from EMA and Man. Son ditto from LPL and LBA. We both have a car....Shed does NOT, hence his posting.
But we "seem" to be degenerating into a "slanging match" [aka ww contest]
So yes, please mention what othr a/fs are doing, but NOT XXX is doing this, and MAN aren't..na na nananaaaaa

As an aside, I would like to travel to work [MAN] by train...nearest station, Stalybridge, the earliest "Airport Train" leaves 20 mins after I start work, hence the car...although as a "Spotter" I did cycle to the Airport.....:}, but that was in the '60s
we [really] do aim to please, ['cos] it [really does] keep the cleaners happy

[MAN Guy]

For the time being I think US will be keeping 1x daily departure from MAN with 330 ops the majority of the time as happens already. However, the 2x daily 757's do seem to work well for CO as they can offer increased flexibility for their pax with the choice of two daily departure times year-round..... whether US would want to go down this road in the future from MAN who knows?

Are DL still sending in 767s on the JFK run or have any 757's cropped up yet?

[SAS MD80]

I suspect that cargo revenue for US Airways is too important to loose so I doubt the 757 ops is a long term plan

[viscount702]

Does anyone know if there is anyway you can find out the number of PAX flying between two destinations regardless of routes.

I know the CAA stats show direct services but is there a way to find out the total PAX flying say MAN to JFK regardles of whether it is direct or via AMS FRA or LHR

Viscount

[airport1]

Hi Guys A friend of mine who works for delta says JFK flight will be 757 from 14 january

[Mr A Tis]

Thank you going loco, one of the few sensible posts for ages.

[comet 4b623PW]

This is my first post. Has anybody any thoughts as to if and when Cathay Pacific are likely to be re-introducing their MAN -HKG passenger services. I thought it would have been announced by now if a service was to commence this summer.

With Air China due start its Boeing 787-8 service to Beijing in 2009 will there be enough passengers to provide the two carriers with profitable services to this region.

If the Air China service starts first and it can feed passengers onto fligths to Hong Kong, Shanghi, and may be Tokyo and Osaka. This could delay Cathay,s service by a year or two.

[MAN Guy]

I don't think Cathay are coming to MAN with a direct pax service again..... well not in the near future anyway. Probably more chance of Oasis Hong Kong to HKG and even that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Expect a scheduled service from Air China to Beijing before any Hong Kong passenger service gets off the ground......love to be proved wrong but don't think its going to happen :(

[comet 4b623PW]

Cannot see any reason why a direct service to Hong Kong, Beijing or for that matter West coast USA would not be launched within the next two or three years. Both have large economies and established or growing tourist sectors.

Neither is easily accesibile at this moment in time nearest hub for China with a flight from Manchester is Singapore, West coast USA take your pick from either mid -west or eastern sea board hubs.

With new generation 200 -250 seat airliners coming into service in the next few years these services should be profitable to operate from Manchester and it,s catchment area. The question is which operators and when.

[MAN Guy]

Beijing will probably be launched as planned next year before any Hong Kong service or any West Coast USA service.

If Hong Kong did get launched I'd be surprised if it was Cathay Pacific. They like flying lots of freight in and out of MAN but are happy for their passengers to code-share through LHR on BA shuttles. Their last attempt at restarting a MAN pax service a couple of years ago ended abruptly over rights to their planned stop off at Moscow..... they seemed much more interested in the MAN-Moscow traffic than the MAN-HKG traffic hence they ducked out of a direct MAN route or a stop-over elsewhere when they hit difficulties over the planned Moscow stop-over.

[spannersatcx]

they seemed much more interested in the MAN-Moscow traffic than the MAN-HKG traffic hence they ducked out of a direct MAN route or a stop-over elsewhere when they hit difficulties over the planned Moscow stop-over.

Not true, the flight was stopped due to objection by BMI who had the traffic rites.

CX has never been able to sustain a non stop flt from MAN-HKG the market isn't there, it always had to tag with another port in Europe, i.e. SPL, CDG, FRA.

It may well return one day, it has never been officially completely struck off, it is looked at from time to time but due to lack of crews/equipment and MORE profitable routes it gets put on the back burner, don't forget CX believe that the UK is centred around London. Even when we flew there 75% of the company never knew we did.:eek:

[AldiAl]

I agree Man Guy. Oasis will be the carrier to start if anyone does...and the quicker the better.
They offer lower fares and I'm sure would clean up out of M/cr.
Their website already shows M/cr as a "planned destination."

[Mr A Tis]

I did use CX many times from MAN when it operated. i thought the loads were reasonable in both classes, especially as loads were restricted to xx number of pax out of MAN due to the stop overs. Obviously CX shift alot of cargo through MAN. There is a huge Chinese community in the region.
The last time I flew CX HKG-LHR there was about 100 pax on a B744.
An evening departure from MAN would connect with all their Australian flights, which the old services did not do. So there is good potential here.
However, I'd guess you'd see Air China pax flights many moons before you see a Cathay one, mainly due to the One World London Airways cartel.

[Vuelo]

Apparently there are to be more FR routes announced in the next few weeks. Looks like FR are going to get well established before EZY do at MAN.

Good news I say, some proper low fares from MAN! Already booked trips for MRS and GRO for £22 return! Bring it on!!

[eggc]

EZY are first with the local advertising - it's everywhere !

I have seen nowt all weekend but Bus Shelters, Buses & Road Side Ads with bright orange ads announcing EZY are "Proud to fly from Manchester".

I like the proud bit and reading between the line! EZY are chuffed at eventually getting their MAN dream.

[Vuelo]

Let's hope they get some more routes on sale ASAP then!

[MUFC_fan]

EZY are first with the local advertising - it's everywhere !

I have seen nowt all weekend but Bus Shelters, Buses & Road Side Ads with bright orange ads announcing EZY are "Proud to fly from Manchester".

I like the proud bit and reading between the line! EZY are chuffed at eventually getting their MAN dream.


I have been seeing this since 2nd Jan in Lancashire! I think it's fantastic! There have also been LPL advertisments which I'm guessing was part of the agreement!;)

I am not a big fan of LPL, but I feel that the promise EZY made to increase their presence at LPL aswell as their new base MAN may not turn out as planned. When EZY realise that the profits to be made from MAN are far superior than those at LPL, they may think that it is far more profitable to make MAN their main base in the North. I know many on this thread would think it would be excellent and would shut up the 'LPL no-hopers' who believe that LPL has something over MAN, but I believe that this would be a bad thing for the region in that MAN would start to grow an even bigger gap on LPL and become too big a power for LPL to cope with.

I would also have said that FR would have taken over LPL before EZY had even moved out but by looking at their announcement for new routes from MAN and then apparent rumours for more it may not be the case.

I was once an LPL beater...but now I feel this could be a major blow for them in the long run...anyway...thats my thoughts out...back to the LPL bashing!:ok:

[Manchester Kurt]

Not in the industry so no idea of the implications...

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1032059_airport_price_controls_scrapped

[Scottie Dog]

According to a press release from the airport authority Concorde should finally get a long awaited roof over it's head this summer. :)

Subject to planning approval from the City Council work should start in the spring and be completed by the end of July.

Presumably this means two things. Firstly the AVP will not be relocating in the near future, and secondly the talked about use of the AVP as apron/taxiway areas is also dead.

[MAN777]

Its basically a big plastic tent over a frame, so its not as permanent as it looks.

[chiglet]

"Perhapse" it's the 70th Anniversary celabration.......Oh no, that's the carnage in T1....:ugh:
watp,iktch

[dh dragon]

Announced today that MIA has been voted UK,s Best Regional Airport in 2008(?) in the Travel Weekly Globe Awards.(votes cast by Travel Agents)
:bored:

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Hi Scottie Dog,

I believe that the plans for the Concorde development always envisaged use of a structure which could be easily dissembled and re-erected on a new site if/when circumstances require. So whilst news of the shelter is very welcome in itself, I wouldn't read too much into its implications for other planned developments around the airfield.

Apologies for not replying sooner; since the BA B777 incident my access to PPRUNE has been very intermittent.

All the best. SHED.

[bigMANofMAN]

Quote....

Manchester recieves Award
Announced today that MIA has been voted UK,s Best Regional Airport in 2008(?) in the Travel Weekly Globe Awards.(votes cast by Travel Agents)

MIA.... ?? Miami Is voted the UK's Best Regional Airport ????? :}

Ho Ho !!!

I guess there weren't many contenders then ????
Musn't have been for MAN to win !!!!

[MUFC_fan]

When you consider that is was the TRAVEL AGENTS who voted, it can be understandable.

1. Large UK airports (LPL,BRS,NCL etc.) offer alot of LCC flights which don't offer any commission.

2. Small airports don't offer enough destinations and are often only served by 1 based carrier + FR so not much money making out of there!:}

3. STN also offers very little money making power for the agencies.

4. The other three biggest (MAN,LHR,LGW) offer connections to destinations across the globe with the world's major legacy carrier and most importantly - make the travel agencies alot of money!;)

They should rename the awards: 'Best money making airport.':ok: Little to do with how good the airport ACTUALLY IS.

[Adola69]

According to a press release from the airport authority Concorde should finally get a long awaited roof over it's head this summer.

Nice. I do hope that they are also going to offer some protection from the elements for the Punters who pay their money and have nowhere to shelter from the extremes of weather that the AVP seems to attract (Normally rain with howling winds), unless they arrive by Car. The Butty bar canopy is hardly adequate especially when the wind bloweth!:*

Anyway back to route news: This may be old hat to some, but I haven't seen it mentioned yet, and that is that JADE Cargo are to start a twice weekly service to Shenzhen from May 1st, arriving mid afternoon and departing at tea-time, via Budapest with B744's - which is nice!
Also Turkish are planning to increase to Eleven flights per week in summer.
Daily at 1000 and out at 1100, and then Mon, Wed Fri & Sun at 1420 in and 1520 out, - all local times. :ok:

I'd imagine (although I may be wrong) that little old Manchester will be second only to Amsterdam for Chinese Freighters?? ( Cathay, Dragonair, Air China, Great Wall, Jade and from Chinese Taiwan, China Airlines) - eat your hearts out south of 52.30N !!??:D