MANCHESTER - 5

[OltonPete]

MUFC_fan

The last time I checked the BHX schedule had several gaps but
none for a daily flight at the same time. About a four hour gap was the largest so I doubt any "W's" unless any flights are re-timed.

I will take a look a bit later if I have time.

Pete

[OltonPete]

Just checked one week at the end of June and a much tighter schedule
now with the only gaps 14.10-20.00 Mo, Thu & Fri plus possibly Wed 20.30 onwards (BHX - BFS departs 21.00 Mo-FR). Not checked the
weekend.

Mon

1) BFS AGP ALC 2) PGF NQY BFS BFS
3) PMI BOD PRG 4) NOC JER XXX ORK

Tue

1) BFS AGP ALC 2) LIS BFS BFS
3) PMI BOD PRG 4) JER NOC NQY ORK

Wed

1) BFS AGP ALC 2) JER NOC BFS BFS
3) PMI BOD PRG 4) PGF NQY ORK ???

Thur

1) BFS AGP ALC 2) NOC JER XXX ORK
3) PMI BOD PRG 4) PGF NQY BFS BFS

Fri

1) BFS AGP ALC 2) NOC JER XXX ORK
3) PMI BOD PRG 4) PGF NQY BFS BFS

Hopefully at least one more route and quite a spacing for Madrid
or Poland.

BHX gaps are a mess 1525-2015 Mon, Tue 1050-1445, Thu 1525 onwards
and Fri 1050-1445 & 1840 onwards. Hardly a gap in the weekend schedule

Pete

[cornishsimon]

Pete,
stupid question but are these schedules for bhx or man ?

[tigermike]

As it is only 4 aircraft I would imagine its MAN. BHX has double that number I think.

[OltonPete]

Sorry for the confusion - they are for Manchester (4 based aircraft).

The question was asked if it was there a possibility of any of the BHX based craft routing through Manchester on a "W" pattern and hence
why I also mentioned BHX but all I have heard is a rumour of 3 more
routes with an announcement soon.

BHX currently has 7 based rising to 8 at the end of May but like
Manchester there are gaps in the schedule for potential new routes
and hopefully both airports will see more announcements.

Pete

[cornishsimon]

Pete
thanks for clearing that one up!

any ideas if baby are likely to use NQY from any other domestic airports?

i might be wrong but havnt they previously flown from other places into NQY?

[Bagso]

Q Has Manchester peaked..?

Lets be honest if MAS could not "supposedly" make money on 80% load factors and they end up in bloody Gatwick , we have no chance of attracting the other big players like QANTAS, SAA, Air India etc etc back......

The long hall market appears to have peaked as has the target of 40M pax a year !

...and now sadly it appears SAUDIA is going back to 1 a week so clearly that is also about to go down the pan as indeed are JETT8 (although appreciate that is a different area) !

...and whats happening with SIA ?

The ONLY way that Man can compete against London is on price, we are already penalised because of the dominance of the South East, it is such a massive hub but there is something seriously wrong when you hear all these stories of poeople from the North Of England ramming flights that originate in the South East and yet services from Manchester cannot make money.

So what is going wrong ?

Does anyone know what happended with the landing fees ?

There are some bright spots Re EMIRATES BUT generally its a gloomy outlook.

Landing fees must be more competitive !

There is little point banging on about long haul services such as THAI etc..... if almost everybody else has failed, on what possible basis does anybody hope that they might have a cat in hells chance of success given the current backdrop of airlines which have "tried and failed".

With the recent influx of long haul cargo it "looked" as though that was a bright spot but even that is now looking dodgy.

Can somebody cheer me up please !

[steve wilson]

You just have to cross your fingers for a few years until the smaller 787 comes online. Maybe then the airlines will be able to get good LFs.

Things still look rosy with flights across the pond so its not all bad.

From experience at looking at longhaul flights to Asia ex MAN the seem to be several hundred pounds more than flights to the same destination ex LHR, so maybe the airlines need to look at their pricing structures before pulling out of MAN.

Steve

[StoneyBridge Radar]

If there is any comfort to be found in it, Gatwick was not a decision based on a competition between them and MAN. Malaysian planned the extra schedule for LHR, but the slots weren't available for it to work.

Whether the decision to open LGW is a good one remains to be seen, although with the various EZY options at LGW, I would have thought it might become the "backpackers'" route of choice both ways.

But as we all know, high loads and low yields don't necessarily spell success.

Stoney

[FlyZB]

I think the problem is that over the years we have been somewhat 'spoilt' at MAN in terms of the variety of routes on offer. When all said and done it is just a regional airport and cannot compete on the same scale as the airports in the south-east. But look at the services we have/have had over the years. The likes of EK double daily, QR, SQ, Malaysian, Ethiad, CX... Not to mention the considerable amount of west bound traffic too. How many other regional airports can boast such a list. Look at the likes of BHX, NCL, GLA. All of these airports have hugh catchment areas and in the case of Birmingham many would argue that this indeed is England's second city yet services and passenger numbers from there have always been years behind those offered from MAN. I guess what I'm trying to say is, is it a case of we are all being far too expectant? Did we really expect services, particularly long-haul, to continue to grow at pace? MAN is not LHR and despite it being in an economically important region, long-haul services were always going to level off at some point. I believe now is that point and because we have been spoilt with so many long-haul offerings in the past, we are now feeling disappointed with this stagnant period. If we all stand back and gain some perspective on the situation, MAN still offers more long-haul routes than any other regional airport in the UK. Surely that's an achievement in itself. We will always play second fiddle to the south-east. The majority of long-haul carriers will find it more viable to operate into LHR and feed pax down from the regions to there. We have to just accept that. When you look at the London bias mentality of our own national carrier, maybe we should all be grateful that we have so many long-haul services in the first place. And finally, the slight drop in pax numbers through MAN has very little to do with long-haul. This is mainly down to the consolidation of charter carriers plus the short-sighted attitude of the big bosses in their failure to attract LCC's. The latter is being addressed. MAN still has 22M pax per annum passing through its terminals, again for a regional airport is this really all that terrible??

[MAN Guy]

SAA - won't be returning anytime soon, they have been in dire straits for a while and cutting European flights rather than adding them

Qantas - likely to return through Jetstar once the equipment is available

Air India - rumours of a return have been going on for a while but nothing yet.... maybe another Indian carrier will get in there first?

Malaysian - unlikely to return, especially if Air Asia X are poised

However I don't think long haul from MAN is a write off just yet, for a regional airport there is a very good network of destinations served. I think in the future however we may potentially see a change in the profile of long haul operators towards the likes of Air Asia X, Oasis Hong Kong and Jetstar rather than traditional legacy carriers returning to routes. All three of these carriers appear to be showing an interest in operating into MAN so hopefully some good news will be just around the corner.

[Vuelo]

WW MAn to LIS announced and on sale.

[AUTOGLIDE]

Not sure BHX is really comparable to MAN. The former suffers by being within 1-1.5 hours drive from LHR, though admittedly doesn't have the shuttle flights.
The problem I have with MAN , as already pointed out above, is that it almost always costs more to fly from there than LHR. I have seen BA prices to JFK cheaper routing MAN-LHR-JFK than flying on the direct MAN-JFK. I also got quoted cheaper fares on EK and SIA from LHR than MAN.
As for QF, there's no point, EK/SIA took the MAN - Australasia market when they left with the strange notion that people in the NW would still use their services, even when they'd have to transfer at LHR from T4 to T1 after already travelling for nearly 24 hours.
I suspect MAN, in terms of L/H development, would be better off without domestic flights to LHR. If you cannot get a route in directly pax could still route via AMS/FRA/CDG. It;s also quicker to get to/from LGW by train from Manchester, even though it's via central london than on the comically late BA flight, cheaper too.

[Mr A Tis]

Keep up Vuelo - see post #2004:ok:

[comet 4b623PW]

What Manchester needs and more importantly needs to sustain is a long haul carrier of it's own. Lets face the fact we will be waiting forever if we rely on BA, BD and VS. Overseas based airlines cannot be relied on either as witnessed by SQ,s strange decision to drop two of it's seven weekly flights (Is this so it can help fill it's London originating A380,s).

Yes i know raising the finance for a startup airline is hard at anytime, but i can see a carrier with six Boeing 787 ,s flying non-stop to west coast USA, HKG, and competing with the incumbent airlines to New York, Dubai etc.
Take off and landing slots are far easier to come by at MAN than LHR and as regards ticket prices a new start up carrier will be able undercut the legacy airlines.

[ACCMan]

AccMan said

Not true - I've had two replacement passes at MAN, one being a company change, one being a complete renewal, and I did not have to be re-scanned either time.

Full roll out of the biometric system has only started this month. Possible to transfer data card-to-card but this can take longer than a re-scan. System can not hold biometric data.

[MAN777]

This link showing LHR lost out to Brussels. I also think MAN missed out on a chance aswell.


http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-220208b.htm

[Monarch Man]

Yes i know raising the finance for a startup airline is hard at anytime, but i can see a carrier with six Boeing 787 ,s flying non-stop to west coast USA, HKG, and competing with the incumbent airlines to New York, Dubai etc.
Take off and landing slots are far easier to come by at MAN than LHR and as regards ticket prices a new start up carrier will be able undercut the legacy airlines.

A little birdy tells me that Zoom UK may be looking at expansion at MAN :oh:

[MANFlyer]

If MH wanted slots at LHR instead of LGW maybe they shouldn't have flogged those LHR slots last year.

FlyZB. I admire your positivity mate, but I can't take comfort in the fact that it's got more than other regional airports so we should be happy. MAN is the biggest and most important airport outside London, so it should be better than other regionals. Long haul air travel globally is booming, MAN is becoming stagnant.

We've been so bl**dy close on CX (flight numbers and times announced), to a lesser extent on TG (CEO admitting MAN was one of the next batch on the list) and recently lost MH (who now announce twice weekly LGW flights) that you start to think it's never gonna happen. We live in hope...

BTW, nice of that AA 767 to block the main runway with a duff tyre today while the other runway is out of action.... :uhoh:

[mickyman]

FlyZB

Your last post was 'about right' for me.

MM

[Monarch Man]

At the risk of being flamed, comments such as this

MAN is the biggest and most important airport outside London, so it should be better than other regionals.

just don't stack up to reality, sure MAN is a two runway operation, but it clearly isn't considered "that" important, purely because the premium yields out of MAN are pathetic..and always have been :{

[WincoDinco]

At the risk of being flamed, comments such as this



just don't stack up to reality, sure MAN is a two runway operation, but it clearly isn't considered "that" important, purely because the premium yields out of MAN are pathetic..and always have been :{


You can't judge the importance of an airport purely on its premium yields.

[Ian Brooks]

Wouldn`t say that premium is pathetic, not as good as LHR but are getting better as there are more and more business moving to Manchester/Salford

Ian

[pwalhx]

You know it really irrritates me that people assume there is no premium traffic ex Manchester and that everyone with money (so called) wants to fly from London.

I am fortunate that my job allows me to fly on business and I frequently have problem getting seats in Business on flights ex manchester and I usually find business quite full.

lets not forget that Cheshire is one of the most afluent parts of the country,

There is premium traffic from the regions and if the services are made available at the right times then they will be used.

[ATNotts]

Autoglide,

BHX 1 - 1.5 hours drive from London!!?? A one a hour drive would require a licence-losing 100mph+ performance - 1.5 hours perhaps possible, at 02:00 on a Sunday morning - with all roadworks lifted!!!

Realisticly, add one hour to both times.

BHX isn't comparable to MAN, partly because of the London proximity issue, and partly because whilst the Birmingham City Concil was twiddling their thumbs and navel gazing in the 1960s, Manchester had the foresight to build an International airport and runway to match. Since then MAN has always had the edge over BHX.

Things might had been different if thw two sets of councillors had been in opposite council chambers.

[Shyted]

I agree with pwalhx,

I frequently fly (twice a month) business class on EY MAN AUH MAN and its always full, i do think on the other hand that the likes of Air Asia X and Oasis Hong Kong will do much better out of MAN than MH and CX ever did as passengers from the North are more money conscious than the South.
As somebody else said in this thread. You can find it cheaper to fly via LHR on carriers such as SQ then direct from MAN and pax in the North will do that if it saves them money.
If Oasis and Air Asia came to MAN it would be cheaper still and therefore cut out the necessity to transit through LHR. Why would any one want to fly via LHR. The flight takes 30mins, when you get there you are in the hold for another 30mins, you get off the plane and have to change terminals......thats another 30mins. Once you are boarded and you push back its at least 40 mins before getting airbourne, then you have a twelve hour flight ahead of you. All that to save a bit of cash.
Come on Oasis and Air Asia......bring it on.

[Monarch Man]

You know it really irritates me that people assume there is no premium traffic ex Manchester and that everyone with money (so called) wants to fly from London.

Well the numbers don't reflect your sentiments, nor might I add do the yields.

You can't judge the importance of an airport purely on its premium yields.

You are completely correct, which is why I wasn't, I'm looking at the big picture..however, until such time as the average premium yield improves at MAN, it will continue to be a rather poor regional cousin to LHR and LGW comparatively speaking.

I am fortunate that my job allows me to fly on business and I frequently have problem getting seats in Business on flights ex Manchester and I usually find business quite full.

pwalhx, I'm not surprised, the lack of frequency and lack of passengers means the airlines will do their best to maximize the loads they can generate.

[pwalhx]

Well the numbers don't reflect your sentiments, nor might I add do the yields.

Obviously the numbers and yield are adding up for some airlines

[Ringwayman]

Lack of frequency? What are you suggesting....6 times a day to long-haul points? I would have thought that minimum 4 weekly up to 2 daily would be the required amounts for each destination. Obvsiuouly, New York is different as we have 3 757s and a 1 767 each day.

Lack of passengers? Better tell Emirates that then as they must be completly potty to have decided to go from 2 weekly A310 via FRA to 2 daily non-stop 77W as there are apparently this perceived "lack of passengers" wanting to fly.

What might be the problem for most airlines is that there is a tremendous number of passengers wishing to fly out of the regions on long-haul routes but to service them means that inappropriate aircraft and/or configurations would have to be used. If there were multiple destinations (5 to 10?) where a general profile mix of 15% to 20% business class with the rest economy then airlines might find it more economic to develop a mini-fleet configured that way. Where some people go wrong is to always compare MAN with LGW/LHR. THere is no way that MAN would ever be able to attract the yields they do....I would like to think that MAN could raise yield levels to those comparable with MUC.

I find it mildly interesting that BA complained about the proposed introduction of extra services to New York in the late 1980s as the market "wouldn't sustain 2 carriers" which I would have thought everyone taking to mean that BA would withdraw their service, yet they still plod on after seeing off AA and DL in the 1990s.

[Mr A Tis]

Well the Prestbury triangle boasts more Millionaires per sq mile than anywhere else in the UK.
Med-Longhaul fares on direct flights ex MAN are nearly always more expensive than flights ex LHR, sometimes substantially more. MAN-MAD was ALWAYS cheaper with BA via LGW than on their direct flights.
The Far East carriers have dedicated freighters into MAN. Substantial freight with pax could be carried on the right aircraft, thereby making pax flights more viable.
The last time I flew from HKG into LHR on a CX B744 there were less than 100 pax on board, so dont give me that guff about demand. Look at the poor load on the BA 777 accident aircraft. Many of the LHR routes are in fact over saturated but the slots held, have to be used & they are stupidly worth a fortune. MAN slots are worthless, its the LHR slot values that distort the market.

[MANFlyer]

Monarch Man, if MAN isn't 'the biggest and most important airport outside London', would you care to advise us all which airport is then, in 'reality' ?.

This should be good...

[Monarch Man]

AMS, FRA, CDG :ok:

MAN doesn't even rate a mention:D

[Shyted]

Monarch Man,

I think you will find that AMS,FRA and CDG are in Holland, Germany and France, Unless something happened lastnight when i was sleeping. I think MAN flyer is talking about MAN being the most important airport outside London in the UK.
I am pretty sure we all agree on that

[AUTOGLIDE]

Autoglide,

BHX 1 - 1.5 hours drive from London!!?? A one a hour drive would require a licence-losing 100mph+ performance - 1.5 hours perhaps possible, at 02:00 on a Sunday morning - with all roadworks lifted!!!

Realisticly, add one hour to both times.

Sorry, didn't realise I would have to explain it in such detail. BHX is South of the city, it shares a lot of it's potential catchment area to the South with LHR. BHX to LHR is approx 110 miles at the most. The M40 is just about the fastest flowing motorway in the UK and aside from Oxford has a remarkable lack of congestion causing on/off ramp density. At any reasonable average motorway speed you can easily make it in 1.5 hours driving at the motorway average speed, unless you are stupid enough to try it at rush hour, are driving at old biddy speeds or are travelling there using the A40 on a moped. I drive past BHX on the way to LHR and back at least once a week, never taken anywhere near 2.5 hours, and you'd be very inept, daft enough not to bother seeing a way of avoiding the M25, or just plain unlucky for it to do so. I can make MAN to LHR in an average of 3 hours, never mind a quick tootle down the M40 from BHX.

[MANFlyer]

Monarch Man,

Thanks for getting the week off to an amusing start, unusual for a Monday morning.

Could I respectfully suggest that you try and find somewhere you can learn to read English, and also maps.... ;)

[bmia330]

More Baby routes!!

MAN - BCN and MAD being announced and put onsale today!

[Mr A Tis]

Baby to MAD now bookable. 4 x a week Mon Thu Fri Sun. Afternoon departures.
BCN not quiet loaded at the minute.

[Momentary Lapse]

FlyZB speaks sense.

I would add that MAN could also try competing on service rather than on price (there's a novelty eh?) Little Chef recently tried cutting prices to win back business - look what happened.

If people want to fly, a few extra pence off the landing fees (if the airline even passes them on to pax) won't make much difference.

In case you haven't noticed, real inflation (petrol, diesel, gas, potatoes, wheat, local and national taxes) is far higher than RPI or CPI would suggest, and with the recent credit scares, people are tightening their belts. I know I am. Travel suddenly becomes optional not taken for granted, and this will also have an effect on traffic levels at most airports.

[OltonPete]

My post 2009 was fairly accurate and Madrid was of no surprise fitting
in nicely on Mo, Thu & Fri.

However I wonder how BCN fits in - latish departure, another aircraft,
cut route or did I miss something?

Still not bookable a minute ago.

Pete

[viscount702]

The BCN flights start in September. They operate on the same days and approx same times as MAD.

How can this be. The MAD took up the only gaps in the Schedule so how can BCN opreate without another A/C.

Viscount

[FlyboyUK]

There's going to be a BMI 321 operating for Baby out of MAN for the summer until the 737-300 scheduled for arrival late summer replaces it.

[MAN Guy]

Good to finally see some new routes from them. Interesting choice to return to the BCN route though, as I recall they operated this when they first set up at MAN but conceded alongside IB to ZB. ZB have had a stranglehold on this route from MAN for a while now, will be interesting to see if WW and FR (Girona) can make inroads.

Fantastic to see the great city of Madrid will be up on the departure screens again this summer :)

Right, anyone for Berlin whilst we're at it?!

[viscount702]

Flyboy UK

You advise that BMI will operate a 321 for WW until the 737 arrives late summer.

Will this 321 be the 4th A/C at MAN until the 737 arrives or is the 321/737 a fifth A/C being based.

The reason I ask as noted in my earlier post the new flights to BCN from September need a fifth A/C


Viscount

[BYALPHAINDIA]

FlyZB speaks sense.

I would add that MAN could also try competing on service rather than on price (there's a novelty eh?) Little Chef recently tried cutting prices to win back business - look what happened.

If people want to fly, a few extra pence off the landing fees (if the airline even passes them on to pax) won't make much difference.

In case you haven't noticed, real inflation (petrol, diesel, gas, potatoes, wheat, local and national taxes) is far higher than RPI or CPI would suggest, and with the recent credit scares, people are tightening their belts. I know I am. Travel suddenly becomes optional not taken for granted, and this will also have an effect on traffic levels at most airports.


Yes totally agree, The Taxes increase but the wages go nowhere:ugh:

This 'Avalanche' of credit chaos has come from America and at the end of the day people only have the same amount of money to spend.

The piggy bank is getting smaller.:*

[pwalhx]

Hudson bay said - bmi to announce new routes fom Manchester next week. Very clever indeed. We all know what next week coincides with!!

I beleive this to be the start of a massive expansion by bmi at Manchester.

My money is on Poland and somewhere mid-haulish and later said the announcement would be between 22nd and 25th

My question now is we have had Baby announcing Lisbon, Madrid and Barcelona, welcome but hardly exciting and today is the 26th are we to expect more from bmi or is that it?

[Bagso]

Hate to be gloomy ( yet again ) but surely this news re WW is just at the margins ?

Welcome though it is , 3 a week here and 2 a week there......well it isnt exactly earth shattering is it ?

Manchester needs to look at how it does things as does the UK aviation industry as a whole.

Whilst last nights peice on BAA was mildly entertaining the most interesting item was right at the end,

"according to the CAA there is little point putting more terminals and runways into the South East because there is no airspace".

Therefore rather than "ramming" everybody into the South East there has to be another solution.

The airlines will not move on this because there is no incentive to do so, why on earth duplicate costs. I do not blame them, but should there be incentives , tax breaks or dare I suggest tax penalties ?

Manchester itself appears to slumber/plod on with no radical ideas or solutions. We gain airlines , they increase frequency and then they wither.....

Nothing changes...!

One telling statistic from another thread referred to the number of flights to New York from the South East, it is now over 30 a day ......!!!!!!!

Compare this to our very own JFK flight, I refer of course to the "meagre" offerings of BA and its scintillating daily BA767, a route which has seen no expansion in frequency or capacity for almost 30 years !

There cannot be another service in the world that has so resisted the weight or public expectation from business or sailed headlong against a suststained backdrop of general economic growth.

Maybe Manchester is punching above its weight, maybe it is just a "regional airport" done good, maybe it doesn't actually deserve major expansion, it seems to do just enough despite itself and it's management, but is "just enough" actually good enough anymore ?

Manchester should do better, the city is fantastic and is now a major European centre ( forgeting of course the sterotypical image still portrayed by the buffoons running Look NW, The Manchester Evening News and even god bless them the Local Council := )

I talk to business leaders throughout the US and Europe they view the City as a major economic hot house and THAT is why it is not just another regional airport and should not be lumped with Birmingham , Glasgow, Newcastle etc as it so often is.

If only somebody would recognise this and put in place the conditions to make it work !!!!

Rant over.

[Hudson Bay]

Guys, this is only the start. Rome wasn't built in a day. Fantastic things are happening at bmi. Like I said more routes are on the cards but secrecy is everything in this business.

Ryanair's website is down at the moment and bookings for these new routes are 4 times the normal for a route launch.

Big things are happening at Manchester which includes mainline, regional and bmibaby. New aircraft are difficult to get hold of but someone has managed a deal that is remarkable to say the least.

An Analyst stated that 2008 was the year the UK would see a major change in Aviation. He went on to say that it would involve bmi. All I can say is watch this space. It is exciting.

For those that think 3 new routes is not enough in 1 day, I suggest you go and do some bungee jumping. For the rest of you, I can tell you, that from what I know this is the most exciting time in my Aviation career of 20 years.

[GLENO]

Hudson Bay........................

When can we expect this Exciting announcement?...........

[Mr A Tis]

BMI commercial department promised me a MAN-SOU service was imminent, mind you, that was two years ago.

[Bagso]

Re wish list from BMI ( or how about Lufthansa basing some aircraft over here for the US services for that matter)

Daily Lax,
Daily Boston
Daily Mumbai
Daily Melbourne
Daily Kuala Lumpur
Daily Toronto
Daily Tokyo

with 4 a week each to to Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, NZ.

Now THAT would get the pulse racing !!!:D

Even this modest number would still be a low base relative to the actual pax numbers passing thru the South East that actually originate up here based on current evidence , but it would at least be a start .....and would in itself also stop the drip feed of traffic thru FRA and CDG , it might also generate traffic from other UK regions, if prices were realistic and comparable to LHR.

.....unless of course the airlines and BAA actually want to get to the stage where there is a an hourly LHR - shuttle to all these cities...

.....i'm all for choice but c'mon, in some cases it is getting that way.

Just one other point re prices , is it not against OFT rules to have prices so way out of kilter where it can actually be 20% dearer to fly direct than via LHR ?

[Momentary Lapse]

Ryanair's website is down at the moment and bookings for these new routes are 4 times the normal for a route launch.


How do you know, if the website is down? :confused:

[Skipness One Echo]

Peeps there is a fundamental problem here that you are all conveniently ignoring. Take Melbourne and Kuala Lumpur, both former BA destinations. Nowadays there is no need to offer half a B747 a few times a week to an exotic faraway place, the passegers still fly BA but are carried onwards by a Oneworld partner. In OZ this is QANTAS. In the UK the feeders are BA and BMI for ONEWORLD and STAR respectively. The hub airport is Heathrow, not London the city, Heathrow the world hub. This is partly the reason the Singapore aren't pushing Manchester the way they used to. They are building LHR as a STAR ALLIANCE hub, slowly but surely. Every passenger direct to Manchester bypasses part of the business model and upsets a part of the airline. Same as BA. There are important people who feel that every MAN-JFK pax ought to be via LHR as that is the business model. To build long haul from
MAN undermines the model and pits one part of the airline against another part of the same airline !
Since all the big players are now in alliances, I don't see a major breakthrough in the future. The glory days of SAA, Air India etc I think are gone forever.

[MAN777]

And that is why the likes of Emirates and Qatar have jumped in and milked off the PAX that wont be told what to do by BA or One World executives. We in the north are not sheep, we are educated, well travelled and know when we are being shafted ! I would rather loose a leg than fly through Heathrow.

[comet 4b623PW]

Do the faction of people in BA who may advocate closing down MAN-JFK not realize that if this route was not operating then most of the business would probably go to Continental, Delta or a new entrant. The business model of feeding every passenger into Heathrow may work for some markets like OZ but I feel it is going to come under increasing pressure especially to North America. BA will have to introduce more non Heathrow flights across the Atlantic or it will increasingly loose out on business.

[MAN Guy]

"The glory days of SAA, Air India etc I think are gone forever."

I agree, the likelihood of catching SA, CX, QF etc all lined up together on the tarmac again at MAN on scheduled pax services like the early 90's is pretty remote. However thats not to say the likes of Oasis HK, Jetstar, Air Asia X and, possibly, closer to home Zoom UK won't look at MAN in the absence of the legacy carriers returning......hopefully all is not lost on long-haul services just yet.

However if the lower cost carriers I mention here don't commit to MAN over the next couple of years then that might be the time to worry :eek:

[viscount702]

According to OAG LN are adding a Tuesday flight.

Viscount

[Momentary Lapse]

So ManGuy is saying MAN doesn't mind losing the brands, as long as it gets some second-tier fly-by-nights (pun intended) to replace them.

Much like those 70s office blocks where the original blue-chip tenant moves out after 25 years, and is replaced by some dodgy company that goes bust shortly afterwards, and forever after the building has a "to let" sign on it.....

.....then the office block is demolished to build apartments or a shopping mall.

Maybe the time has come to sell the land to Peel to build a shopping centre on, that south Manchester and Cheshire residents can get to, without risking their lives on the M60 to the Trafford Centre.

P.S. are the rumours of a McDonald's coming to Handforth Dean true?

[chiglet]

P.S. are the rumours of a McDonald's coming to Handforth Dean true?

No..it's the Burglar King that the "Staff" can't get to....:{
watpiktch

[Curious Pax]

You could take that view Mr Lapse, but you could also take the view that businesses have to change with the times or die. Manchester Airport bosses were in danger of achieving that when they tried to hang on to BA, and looked down their nose at lo cost carriers. However they now seem to have realised that locost is here to stay, and if harnessed in a controlled way can make an airport an awful lot of money.

Sure some carriers might be here today gone tomorrow outfits, but that's all part of the gamble in business - picking enough that are long term prospects that it outweighs the more dubious propositions. Just because they don't have names on the fuselage that have been around for 50 years, and follow a similarly aged model doesn't mean they won't prove very lucrative. I suspect that for an airport the number of bums on seats is much more important to them than it is for the airlines, who need the yield. After all Business/First class pax are just as likely to ignore all the shops as locost pax, possibly even more so. As I understand it an airport generally charges by pax in/out, and aircraft size (among other factors), so 400 pax on an Oasis 744 is probably at least as attractive as 250 pax on a Cathay 340.

When I was first interested in aviation the idea that Sabena, Swissair, Dan Air etc would no longer be around would have had one laughed out of the airport, but guess what - it happened. In 20 years time who knows? Air Asia X with 5-10 Far East routes, Easyjet with 20 aircraft based, Ryanair with 10? Or Liverpool could get a massive investment from a billionaire, buy Manchester, install a high speed rail link between the 2, and turn Manchester into a housing estate, and Liverpool into a 30 million pax p.a. superhub.

Things change.....

[Vuelo]

BA MAN to JFK is quite an interesting one, becasue if it were to go, CO and DL using 757s are not comparable service level replacements. Only VS or BD would offer the Y class cabin standards of a widebody with PTVs and oremium economy etc. which makes this service so popular and unique from MAN.

[MANFlyer]

However thats not to say the likes of Oasis HK, Jetstar, Air Asia X and, possibly, closer to home Zoom UK won't look at MAN

Wouldn't that be great. I can't wait......

[MUFC_fan]

I cannot see the MAN-JFK route falling with BA as they launch their OpenSkies brand. JFK is to become a bigger hub for the airline and unless they need the slots (which may be the case) then the route will remain.

They don't have much room at LHR and the 767 doesn't operate from LGW so where would they put it.

IF it was to happen, AA, VS or BD would be on it almost instantly or CO/DL would increase their a/c size to 767 or even higher!:ok:

[MAN Guy]

MANFlyer and Momentary Lapse - most if not all of us (including myself) on here would love to see the likes of CX, QF, SA, AC, MK and BA to LAX etc back again like the early-mid 90's heyday, but unless there's a fundamental change of direction and culture at the worlds favourite and the other legacies suddenly decide that alliances partnerships are the spawn of the devil, it ain't gonna happen any time soon. Even the legacy carriers we have left seem to be looking to the holy grail at LHR rather than building up MAN. Funny how SQ have gone cool on MAN when their nice new A380 ops are starting at LHR, it doesn't take a scientist to see where this one might be heading........

The point I was making was that if lower cost long haul carriers want to come to MAN to operate to HKG, KUL etc then having those would be a lot better than having nothing at all. I think its a concept we need to get used to.

[viscount702]

From MAN website T3 are going to 4 a day to STNfrom April

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I think MAN has got used to not having HKG now.

I have always thought that BA have never being interested in expanding Long Haul.

You would think China Southern could make a go of MAN.

I think the chances of seeing CX, QF, SAA at MAN are 1/100,0000.

[roverman]

Runway 05R-23L re-opens on Sunday following pavement repairs. Whilst closed the opportunity was taken to re-mark and re-survey the the runway declared distances and approval has been granted by the CAA to marginally extend the distances on 23L. The change comes into official effect from 8th May in the UK AIP.

RWY 23L 3050 x 45 metres (10006 x 150 feet)
Using Starter Extension (link Tango) 3200m available (10500 feet).

A small change but now correctly gives 23L the status of being the longest runway at MAN, even without using the Starter Extension.

[ACCMan]

From MAN website T3 are going to 4 a day to STNfrom April

More changes:-

US - 2 x B757s on the PHL during Sept (A330 maint??)
Jade Cargo - Delayed start until Aug (2 x weekly 74F to SZX)
Astraeus - canx all summer flying ex MAN
KLM - Down to 6 per day from Apr
Loganair - Canx proposed DND
PIA - Canx ORD and reduce JFK from 5 to 4 per week
Swiss - Canx proposed GVA

.... and for the spotters:-

Football charters 04/05 Mar

News Axis Airways - 734
Plaza Servicios Aereos - M87
Air Mediterranee - 321
XL Airways France - 320
Neos - 738
SATA - 313

[eggc]

More changes yes...but as usual generally not good ones :ugh:

[airhumberside]

Astraeus - canx all summer flying ex MAN
Whos' picking their flights up (if anyone?)

[OltonPete]

Is this anything to do with the rumour that the US have finally agreed to PIA flying direct from Pakistan to the US?

I saw this posted on another forum but there was definitely no news link from what I can remember. Also from memory it did not state a date or which which destinations were involved.

Unless I was dreaming;)

Pete

[aidoair]

Today 14:33airhumbersideQuote:
Astraeus - canx all summer flying ex MAN
Whos' picking their flights up (if anyone?)

What was their planned schedule?

[viscount702]

US - 2 x B757s on the PHL during Sept (A330 maint??)
Jade Cargo - Delayed start until Aug (2 x weekly 74F to SZX)
Astraeus - canx all summer flying ex MAN
KLM - Down to 6 per day from Apr
Loganair - Canx proposed DND
PIA - Canx ORD and reduce JFK from 5 to 4 per week
Swiss - Canx proposed GVA

PK haven't operated to ORD or more than 2 flights to JFK for ages.

If PK are going to 4 to JFK this is a 100% increase

Viscount

[mmeteesside]

Looks like US is only 1x 757 between Sep 4th and Oct 2nd, 1x 333 all the other times up til then and after that period throughout the winter.

[Scottie Dog]

And also I can only find 1 US 757 daily service to PHL. Admittedly there are two flights showing in Sabre, however they operate at identical times and one is a BD code-share.

Back to the drawing board maybe?

Scottie Dog

[Mouser]

A couple of questions for you lads over at Man, why so many delays today, and any info on why G-TTOD diverted into LPL this morning.

[MAN777]

Overnight winds and knock on delays, several flights went over to LPL last night.

[MUFC_fan]

Could the single runway be causing a problem as well? It is a Saturday!

[Scottie Dog]

So glad that we get 23L back at 1500 tomorrow because at 22.15 we loose 23R for the night - see NOTAM

Q)EGTT/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5321N00216W005
FROM 08/03/02 22:15 TO 08/03/28 06:00 A0623/08
E)RWY 05L/23R CLOSED SUN-THU 2215-0600 DUE WIP. RWY 05R/23L IN USE.

[Adola69]

I'm pretty sure that re-opening of 23L doesn't happen until 1500 today (Sunday), not 0600.

[Mister Geezer]

ACCMan

Swiss - Canx proposed GVA

Swiss do operate a weekly GVA which is targeted at the ski traveler. Swiss are desperately short of aircraft (which is why Helvetic operate to ZRH for Swiss) so even if they wanted to start a regular GVA route - getting the airframe to do it would probably be an issue.

[Musket90]

23L does open at 1500hrs today.

Main reason for 23R night closures is so repairs on Twy DZ to the runway edge can be carried out. No doubt the night closures will enable other routine but essential maintenance to be done on the runway itself.

[Scottie Dog]

Adola/Musket

My humble apologies- you are both quite correct and 23L is scheduled to reopen at 1500.

I really should check my triping before I press 'post'.

Scottie Dog

[dh dragon]

Galileo is also only showing one flight MAN-PHL 04SEP-02OCT. B757 1055/1355

[RingwaySam]

Hi all,

Does anybody have a MyTravel timetable? I know they are still operating under MYT at the moment. I've tried there site but it doesn't seem to give much info. Any help would be appreciated.

[Scottie Dog]

Further to my post of 20th February with regards to the withdrawal of the above service, I am delighted to be able to say that Jett8 have reversed their decision and will continue to service Manchester.

Times are apparantly to be marginally different, but it is good to be able to report a positive change of mind.

I also understand that Jade are still looking at operating, however any start date has ben put back until at least August.

[Vuelo]

Rumour has it that PK could be moving over to T1 very soon...apparently new security kit has been installed at transfers at T1 to cope with the transit flights!

Could be a tight fit!

[MUFC_fan]

Where would they put the a/c? MON/QR/EY always seem to have the larger stands with their A330s!

[Vuelo]

Gate 26 or 32 I would think would be favourites.

It would certainly take presure off T2 as it goes through its refurbishment. The T1 refurb in departures is almost complete, with the new outbound securty area opening in April I believe.

[1station]

April 200?

[FlyZB]

Yeh the new T1 security area will be open April 15th but there's still a lot of other work to be done in T1. The whole retail project doesn't finish until Spring next year meaning that the airside area will be constantly being changed over the next 12 months with passengers being re-routed left, right and centre. It will be difficult enough to keep disruption to a minimum without the added pressure of PK and therefore I don't see this move going ahead just yet. In comparison, whilst the T2 redevelopment is now in full swing, the majority of the work is taking place on the now closed Mezzanine level and former Atlantic Suite. Both of these area's do not interfere with check-in or security and currently it is causing very little disruption. It is only the hoardings in check-in that are causing minor problems and as PK checks in mid afternoon when there are few other departures, it is not really an issue. In fact, I've heard on the grapevine that QR will be the first airline to move from T2 to T1 once their re-timed schedule kicks in.

[mikeyuk]

I heard a rumour that all Scheduled airlines are moving to T1 and all the Bucket and Spades to T2

[brian_dromey]

So whats the eventual plan for MAN terminals?

T1 is obviously being given a general cosmetic overhaul and increased security areas. Standard in any modern refurb programme, along with the addition of additional retail!

T3 leaves me confused though whats happening there? I heard that the Mezz area will become airside T1? Is this still the plan? Are we going to have to proceed through that nasty, narrow series of corridors to get from the station to T3 forever more? Is there going to be any upgrades to the T3 airside, currently retail and food options are poor, its a bit of a hole TBH, especially when compared to T1, which has a much better choice.

Brian.

[mikeyuk]

The current T3 security area will close shortly making way for more shops :ugh: The new T3 search area ( BMI side ) is to be made bigger so all PAX departing from T3 will pass though one security point.

[FlyZB]

The plans for T3 are actually bigger and more ambitious than both the T1 & T2 redevelopments put together. I have detailed a few snipets in previous posts if you want to try and find them but at this stage there are several possibilities being looked at and of course any proposed scheme has to be put forward for board approval.

The current Mezzanine linking T1 and T3 (where the Donkey Stone pub was located) has been closed for a while now. This will not become part of T1 airside for the time being. The T3 end will be made into an extended security area which will serve all passengers departing from T3. Some space will be left at the T1 end with the idea of creating new executive lounges at a later date. There is talk at the minute that the airport's own 'Escape Lounge' brand, currently only in T2, will open a new lounge in T1.

As for the link between T1 and T3, this unfortunately will now require passengers to walk outside between the 2 terminals. A new undercover walkway will be built between the Thomas Cook lifts and the Spar entrance at T3. This is only a short term (2-3 years) measure and eventually a new skylink will be built between the station and T3 but not before the new plans for T3 have been finalised. There was initially going to be a shuttle bus between T1 and T3 but plans for this were shelved as the airport decided the added congestion on Tower Road with these additional bus services wouldn't be worth it for what is effectively a five minute walk.

[Playamar2]

As rumoured some time back. Increase to 9 per week from 3rd August with a second flight on Sunday & Wednesday. Additional Monday flight from 1st September. From 25th October goes back to 7 per week.

[GavinC]

Flew out of T1 on EY the other day. Thought the new restaurant area upstairs was alright. The departures lounge does really feel unfinished at the moment though which is a shame. Hopefully the finished product will be a big improvement.

One question though. Does anyone know if the temporary looking WHSmiths and Boots right infront of th windows (and the information point) are going to be removed once the other shop units come online? I think these units are the worst in th airport interms of making the place look cheap and temporary and also in terms of blocking out daylight from the lounge and not letting people see the planes!!

[Fuel Boy]

Gavin C

Who wants to look out at the planes??!!

I brought up the same question with regards to the new Boots in T3 and was slammed for even thinking that people would rather look out of the window, it just ment staff could buy their lunch quicker:ugh:.

I do agree that they do look shabby and should be relocated and hope they are, from a working point of view sometime it's good to look in from airside to see all the happy punters going on holiday, even more so when it 4 hours late:ok:

[DeltaIndiaSierraPapa]

Personally I feel that the airport is greedy, in so much as they take avery square inch they can for retail and sod the rest of you lot, ambience and comfort be damned! The idea of not being able to look out the windows because there is a dmned Boots there is pathetic!

[GavinC]

And the thing is, there is another boots 10 yards away. And another duty free too. Infact, all of those units have repeat units elsewhere that are permenant.

I really hope they remove the stupid things. I like to look out of the window and see my bag go on the plane!!!

[lexxity]

I brought up the same question with regards to the new Boots in T3 and was slammed for even thinking that people would rather look out of the window, it just ment staff could buy their lunch quicker.

But the idea that we staff can now afford to buy lunch is always a bonus.:ugh:

[BDLBOS]

I am US Based, so use the MAN-SIN about once per year, if transiting through UK office. There seems to be some confusion on the SQ situation, so I thought I would ask the staff -ground and air. I came to the conclusion, that nobody, even the airline knows what the hell is going on with the route. Ground staff were told by the pax about the website showing 5/wk. The loads are high, the days being dropped don't make sense from previous comments, shortage of aircraft yet they are expanding elsewhere. I can't even get back SIN-MAN as it is full (not the first time), so have to go via the dump in the south.:ugh:

Anybody have real facts on the situation?

[MAN777]

Just had a walk round T1, oh my gawd ! what a mess, I hope the hoardings start to come down before the summer season starts or its going to be mayhem, what with the work in progress and the concrete road blocks everywhere its a real shambles. I know I was shot down last time I said it but why the hell are we making yet more alterations to this 1960s dump, management have some bottle, level the place and start again, if LHR can build LHR East in the middle of such a busy place why cant we ?

[AndyH52]

MAN777 I have to agree. Whilst preferring to fly from Liverpool wherever possible (it is after all my local airport) when flying long haul or to many IT destinations I have no choice but to fly Manchester and quite frankly it's rarely a pleasant experience these days.

To me the sensible (and I think viable) option would be to revert to the original plan to build a mid field satellite terminal as an extension to T2. That would potentially add 10-12m capacity, enough to cater for existing T1 traffic (at least) enabling the demolition and rebuild of the T1 area, which once complete would leave the airport able to cater for upwards of 35m pax.

Having said that, with current growth rates maybe the management are beginning to think they don't need so much additional capacity?

[Mr A Tis]

TUI Fly (HLX) have dropped their planned summer Tuesday morning flights to Cologne & Stuttgart. Just had my flights changed from Tuesday morning to very late Wednesday night. Cancelled flights in favour of Lufty - cheaper too !

[MAN777]

The Old BA hangar has finally opened its doors again and is being used for what it was intended !

B-KAG the Dragonair 747 with bent engines, is residing inside.

Hopefully this incident will leave a legacy at MAN in that a dormant building (sealed for years rather than pay rates) will get used properly.

Anybody know the full details ?

[spannersatcx]

Anybody know the full details ?

Details of what?

[Suzeman]

I understand that the Airport Company now own the hangar rather than BA. The change took place recently.

Suzeman

[MAN777]

spannersatcx

read the post !

Does anybody know anything about the use of the BA hangar for the Dragonair 747 ! Is this a one off ? Who is doing the work ? etc etc.

Didnt know I had to spell it out to what I thought were intelligent people on this forum !:rolleyes:

[WincoDinco]

Yep, MA now own the hangar (or more precisely, MADL do). They will be leasing it out to anyone that needs it and are now actively advertising it.

It will bolster the airports attributes as it looks to attract a long haul, foreign airline - now that there is another (available) 747-capable hangar on site. Its a fine bit of hangarage, too.

They are looking to rename the hangar, and are looking for sensible suggestions - anyone?

[mickyman]

FEDEX Expansion at MAN

MON-THU MD11F MAN - MEM
SUN-THU A310F MAN - EWR

Feeders:

B75F from MAD & CDG

ATR from GLA/NCL/CWL & ABZ (?).

Anybody confirm this?

MM

[MUFC_fan]

MAN to become FedEx UK base then?:eek:

Would be excellent if it did.

Some of the pictures I have seen from MEM look cool - maybe MAN could become a mini MEM!:ok:

http://www.englandsnorthwest.com/invest/news/archive/fedex-praises-manchester-as-the-uk-s-fastest-growing-city.html
(They have more space to fill!):ok:

[spannersatcx]

MAN777, I'm obviously a thick engineer then! Didn't know if you wanted details of the incident or something else.

Hangar was always owned by airport but leased to BA.

£2000 a day, work being done by CX with assistance by SIA, MAN777 check your pm's.

[Momentary Lapse]

Not quite correct. MA leases all the airport land (by virtue of a long lease from the 10 local authorities) and then leased some of it to BA, who built their own hangar on it.

When BA lost interest, there was the problem of their asset (their hangar), on someone else's land. If BA ever stop paying the ground lease payment, the landlord (MA) could repossess the asset on their land. They would also still have to pay business rates to the local authority (Mcr City Council) even if it was empty. After it was consistently unused for a while, they could apply to suspend paying rates. However, once it's used again, rates become liable, even if it's only used for one day. That's why it couldn't be used for temporary uses. Meanwhile BA tried to sell the building, along with the right to lease MA's land, but because it's typical BA spec (gold taps, anyone?) the price was too high and no-one was interested.

I suspect MA and BA have agreed a payment (by BA to MA) to extract themselves from their ongoing ground lease liabilities, and to allow MA to re-let it as a normal lease (like any other building e.g. cargo shed). Knowing MA's incompetence in striking truly commercial deals, they've probably agreed to let BA walk away without paying anything, citing "wider strategic benefits" or some such tosh.

[MAN777]

Whatever the legalities lets get it filled with aircraft and get some more engineers employed in the north.

Ocean sky is always packed these days, perhaps they might like to spend some roubles on a BBJ service centre ?

[Momentary Lapse]

Amen to that.

[MAN777]

Well I better keep my mouth shut, no sooner had I said lets get more engineers here, SRtechnics announce closure of MAN operation !:mad:

[Fuel Boy]

Noticed the new windmill on T2 what the ...... is going on there anybody know??

Also whats' with the scaffold around T1 near the Glodfish Bowl?

Was talking to SR engineer today, reckons they will get 90 days notice next week,:sad: hope they can find something.

Fuelboy

[TURIN]

typical BA spec (gold taps, anyone?)

Oh very good. :D:D:ugh:

You should write the leader for the Daily Liar.

[OltonPete]

The CAA Feb provisional route analysis figures show MAN - Doha as: -

10603 down from 14350 - is this due to the re-timing of the flights?

Is it daily as that makes it 183 per flight!:(

The rest of the long-haul looks good but of course there was an extra day compared to 2007.

Islamabad was higher than Heathrow and up over 6 or 7k. The Leeds ISB pax are not shown.

EK was up to 42841 from 39768 which is 369 a flight about 85%.

EY was up to 12994 from 11237.

Pete

[viscount702]

There is something odd about the QR figures.

This is the second month showing large losses.

Last month of LHR LGW and MAN,Man showed the least drop.

This month LGW showed a huge drop of 45% LHR and MAN showed a drop of 26%.

Therfore according to the figures MAN is not the only one suffering and in fact is suffering less than the others.

There is therfore something wrong with the figures or QR are in trouble in the UK. Which is it. I think we need to see the final figures for the last two months to find out what may be happening.

Otherwise the figures aren't that bad.

Question? Why do the figures never show anything for KIR


Viscount

[FlyZB]

Noticed QR check-in was particularly quiet on many days during Feb. On some of their AM departures they only had 3-4 desks allocated compared to the usual 7-8. When I asked their reps why they had so few desks open, they informed me that there was less than 100 pax booked. This occured several times a week from what I can remember, so it seems the loads on the early departure are suffering. No such problems on the evening Mon, Thu, Fri departures which had the usual number of desks open and seemingly good loads.

[MUFC_fan]

Will pick up during the summer months I am sure. QR can't afford to leave MAN unless the routes starts to lose ALOT of money. Who knows...if they are carrying cargo, they might be making a tidy some and PAX are just adding to the profit?! Would rather have 100 in J than 200 in Y!

[roverman]

OASIS KONG KONG managers visited MAN this week to view the airport's facilities and hold talks with MA regarding a proposed MAN-HKG service. Slots already applied for but details of new service still to be resolved. Hope this one comes off - a new B747 passenger service will be very welcome.

[EC-ILS]

I hope they didnt see the parts of Manchester I saw when I was there on my last visit, otherwise they will never come!

[andybsei]

Nothing odd about the QR figures.
Since they shafted themselves by withdrawing contracted rates from all UK Tour Operators they have been relying on all the UK business to book their considerably higher fully published fares.

Also, the likes of EY and EK have been very pro-active and have introduced a lot of fantastic offers ex UK across all destinations.

QR have definitely shot themselves in the foot recently

[MUFC_fan]

I know MAN was mentioned as the airport with more destinations than any other airport in the world? Is it still true?

Now that they have :

MAD, MRS, BRE, LIS, GDN, PZN and BGY entering the network (some returning) during the summer months (and maybe HKG!:ok:) will they have cemented their place?

If so, and I was MA, I would be gloating it alot more than they do! 'Manchester' appearing on more departure boards across the globe than any other airport including the likes of CDG and AMS!

OK, some of the routes are charter and may only fly as little as once every two weeks but how will the public know that?! Let the world know - MAN is the world's most connected airport!;)

[MAN777]

QR are offering deals through LGW with airline ticket network, they are agents !

[Mouser]

I,ve just booked QR, Man-Doha-Dubai, return for £729 for me and Mrs Mouser, this summer, which I thought wasn't a bad price, cheaper than EK,which is of course is non-stop.

[viscount702]

It looks like C0 won't be starting or continuing it's MAN flights.

As reported elsewhere on PPrune they are cutting back on everything at present and most of MAN flights are no longer bookable

Viscount

[MAN Guy]

Will be interesting to see if anybody else comes in with some Polish flights from MAN if C0 are disappearing / scaling back. Might be an area WW could look into if they have the capacity as they have captured some of the Polish market from BHX.

There is obviously a thriving Polish community in the North West of England who might make use of such services as well as business and city break traffic.

[Mr A Tis]

To be honest, I think Wizz & RYR had already cornered the market from LPL.
Too little too late from MAN ( again) I'm afraid.

[MAN777]

Perhaps LOT will come back then ?

[Vuelo]

I doubt it. As per a post on Airliners.net, this will be the green light for WW and most probably FR.

[FlyZB]

And what about FR? When will they announce their next round of routes ex MAN? It was mentioned that there would be an additional 8 by Summer 2009 so is that 4 new for next Winter and another 4 for the following Summer?

[MUFC_fan]

Pretty sure MAN will become a FR base in the near future and the airline don't do things by half!

Hoping for a BHX style annoncement!:ok:

If/when MOL moves into long haul, I wouldn't be surprised to see MAN, BHX and STN as the UK bases for this project.:ok:

[Homo Simpson]

What Manchester does not need is Ryanair expanding so much that you lose the choice from other carriers. They may be cheap sometimes but there are many passengers out there that dont want to fly with them. The more passengers get exposed to the Ryanair treatment the more they are likely to look for an alternative that may not be there anymore.

[Mr A Tis]

I think some of you boys are having too many wet dreams.
I doubt RYR will base anything at MAN, all their current plans are using external based aircraft. What they do next, will depend entirely on EZY-nothing to do with customers or route analysis. If EZY freeze what they have, so will RYR, if EZY expand, so will RYR.
As for RYR long haul- dream on guys. He may be many things, but he ain't stupid.

[boygeorgefan]

Ryanair long haul would be quite interesting. Could use a 737-800 via KEF.

[MAN777]

There you go !

KEF as a hub, "Ryanair USA" (to be formed) flying in from all points USA and meeting up with Ryanair Europe, all points Europe. Bet it would be popular with our Irish American cousins ! The terminal could be fitted out with a "Dennys", "Irish Pubs" and a Shannon like duty free, along with USA immigration pre clearance, sounds like a winner to me.

Perhaps not :)

[steve wilson]

I think MOL wont operate a long haul loco VIA somewhere. Remeber the GSM farce out of Liverpool to the USA last year. B738 from Liverpool to New York direct, making technical stops at Knock, Keflavick, and Gander before hopefully arriving in New York. It was a farce and Pax voted with their feet.

I believe the only thing thats holding RYR back from long haul loco is the availability of a decent airframe thats available in decent enough numbers. Maybe if the Dreamliner eventually takes to the air but with such a delay that a major airline sees its arse and switches it orders to 777s, A330s then he will jump in and take the cancelled orders.

Steve

[mickyman]

I read the last few posts and then realise its the 17th March
and everyone suddenly becomes Irish!!

Keep downing the Guiness chaps.........

MM

[semisonic]

as always i read this forum with interest just thought some people out there could offer some insights into an observation?

Good to see a potential HKG service on the cards, but Oasis have a tiny route network and so then must be serving a predominantly point to point market from MAN. So if they believe there's a sufficient point to point market...even if the flight involves a stop in cologne or where-ever, then the potential market must be even more exploitable for a carrier like cathay/thai or who-ever who can offer more connections on top of the point to point traffic?

shoot me down if i'm talking tripe!! cheers guys.

[MAN Guy]

Onward connections or no onward connections from HKG, Cathay are content to channel all their MAN pax through LHR on codeshare BA shuttles. Unfortunately this is unlikely to change in favour of a resumption of CX passenger flights in the near future. But hopefully Oasis Hong Kong might just put HKG back on MAN's departure boards soon fingers crossed as CX almost certainly wont.

Only time recently that CX came close to restarting MAN was a couple of years ago, but they ran a mile when the Moscow stopover fell through.

[conradmueller]

I think Oasis would be ok, because there should be enough traffic to do without connecting flights at each side.
Especially the route HKG-DUS-MAN-HKG, as slots been asked at DUS, seem ideal. The problem of runway length at DUS is so a minor problem.

[ToNeL]

My first post here. Comments on the following story in tonight's Manchester Evening News:

See http://tinyurl.com/2l36lq (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/business/s/1041253_airport_bosses_gatwick_plot)

[al446]

I suppose I am kind of lucky in that I am equidistant from MAN, LPL & LBA, BLK only slightly further (and better free parking nearby if you want to annoy the neighbours). I hate MAN, security appears to have been hired from the Hacienda and the place is overpriced, at least LBA has a decently priced baker shop, it's just a bit of a b'tard to drive to from M62.
Best airport for me so far is AMS but ready to sample others and change my mind.
The MEN story is interesting only in that it shows that MAN has plenty of credit reserve and has not spent it on us, the fare paying suckers.

[al446]

Would have posted last night but took mickyman's advice and got into the Paddy spirit, enriched local landlord considerably, put Cheiftans on sound system then Riverdance on video, said "****, drink, nuns,etc" and cursed the English. Great night. Wife reminded me in morning that I am Scottish and she is English so my burning of the flag at 3 am was not too appropriate for community relations. Case comes up next week.

[FlyZB]

I think that the MAN board need to concentrate on pumping investment into their existing airports before they should consider purchasing another. There are many future plans at drawing board level for the improvement and development of Manchester and I fear that these will be shelved or cut back in favour of using that money elsewhere.

[mantug01]

When ever you try to get anything done at Manchester the only response you get from MAG is sorry no funding !!! The Idex tunnel has been waiting to be resurfaced for over 4 to 5 years at least. I'm sure people have been lost inside the pot holes down there...

[MUFC_fan]

HKG looks to start in July along with a 'German airport' which is obviously DUS. Also the airline is looking at MEL and SYD which could mean another airline to connect with!

http://www.travelweekly.com.au/dirplus/images/travelweekly/TravelTodayPDF/20_03_2008.pdf

Could Oasis become the first LCC long haul carrier to form a hub? Zoom, AirAsiaX and the Aussie Virgin are starting to make appearances on a bigger level but is this the first airline to offer a connection system? (Assuming they will be offering connection flights which I doubt they will not take advantage of! EU-AUS is a big market!

Just thought I would let you all know!:ok:

[jubilee]

MUFC,

I know everybody quotes DUS as the enroute stop from MAN if and when it goes ahead.

Go to the Oasis web site, click on site map, then growth plans,and we see Cologne mention as it has been for quite along time.

Regards
Jub

[MUFC_fan]

MAN was a destination added after the origional destinations and that seems to be the next airport along with a 'German airport.' If DUS slots have been applied for I would like to make an educated guess and say DUS will the the German airport.

You may be right and the airline may go with the CGN stop but if the slots are for DUS I'm guessing that will be the airport of choice.

[Vuelo]

I understand O8 are due to start in June.

[icebureau]

Apologies for the change in thread...
...who has sampled the new food outlet in T1 arrivals?

[jubilee]

MUFC
Which ever as long as it arrives in Man.

Vuelo

Hope your date is correct, I am holding back at the moment from booking flights in that direction.

Jub

[chiglet]

...who has sampled the new food outlet in T1 arrivals?

Where...tell me more [please]
watpiktch

[EC-ILS]

I remember being in DUS last year and a guy telling me that 747s were banned from there, due to a 747 running off the runway a few years back. Basically what I think he was telling me was that DUS has restrictions on the size of aircraft allowed operate there.

[RingwaySam]

EC-ILS,

I think he might have been having you on. Dusseldorf gets quite a few 747s, and also the odd Antonov 124 now and then.

[MAN777]

Lost a few diverts away this morning (Singapore, Virgin and others) as usual the UK grinds to a halt, when we get an inch of snow:rolleyes:

[bazzab68]

Any Idea where they went. I know at bhx we received 2. They were a MYT from SFB and a FCA LPA. Nothing else came although I beleive theTCX POP went to EMA. Amazing though how in the UK, a milimetre of snow and the place falls to pieces.......

Barry bhx

[MAN777]

Singapore 777 went to LHR and returned a short while ago.

[tigermike]

BAW1502 JFK-MAN has now returned after diverting to GLA earlier.
Does anybody know where QR041 went?
Cheers
TM

[Vuelo]

LPL got the MON Calgary and the JN Las Palmas, but they returned to MAN at 8ish.

Anyone know anything about a possible new service this summer from Lagos? Apparently it was rumpured last summer, but looks likely to start this summer instead.

[Flyboy543]

Hey, yea the FCA SFB landed at 0530 at EMA followed by the TCX POP which didn't get airbourne again till 1300 when she returned to MAN empty. When I passed through the terminal at 1045 the TCX pax were still waiting for their bags!! I believe Menzies handle them there, anybody know why they took so long?

[manchestersam]

Vuelo

Any ideas on who plans to run the route? :)

[END BAG]

Flyboy543
Menzies did handle the TCX A330 diversion but unfortunately their Hi-Lo broke down as soon as they put it on the aircraft.They had to unload the bags by hand and then when the Hi-lo was repaired they had to transfer some of the freight from the front to the back. That took a long time and meant the a/c was at E.M.A. for about 7 hours.

[Musket90]

Making comments about "the place falls to pieces" and "the Uk grinds to a halt" in respect of snow affecting UK airports is disappointing. Snow or slush contaminated runways are a major hazard to aircraft and in the UK, like today, we predominantly experience wet snow which, if it accumulautes on the runway surface, MUST be completely cleared to ensure good braking action along the runway full length. Whilst the diversions may have been an inconvenience, safety comes first.

[bigMANofMAN]

Tigermike
Does anybody know where QR041 went?

The Qatar went to LGW I believe


Vuelo
Anyone know anything about a possible new service this summer from Lagos? Apparently it was rumpured last summer, but looks likely to start this summer instead.

I heard a rumour last year involving Bellview.... Could be them ???

bigMAN

[Suzeman]

Hear Hear Musket 90

There was at least 2 inches of wet snow and from the METAR reports looks like it was snowing for a couple of hours. By contrast, Ken Dodd Intl down the road only appears to have only had a rain and snow mix.

Suzeman

[MAN777]

WOW 2 inches !

and still the huge fleet of sweepers couldnt keep one runway clear, you didnt previously work for British Rail did you ?

I have watched operations continue in far worse conditions at other major airports, why do we have such a huge problem in this country with what was by North American standards a snow shower ? :rolleyes:

[Suzeman]

Well Mr 777 no need to get your knickers in a twist.

If you read the post properly you will see that I was only stating the facts of what I could see out of my window and looking at the METARS to see what happened. And applauding the fact that Musket 90 was stating the safety requirements to explain what airports must do in these situations.

I wasn't trying to justify whether or not they had done a good job - I have no idea as I wasn't out on the runway. You appear to know a lot about it - were you out on the runway clearing snow this morning? Pray tell us what they are doing wrong?

And just to clear the matter up, I don't work at the airport and have never worked for British Rail.

Suzeman

[johnnychips]

If North American airports receive a lot of snow, they will have to have the infrastructure to deal with it in order to operate. If MAN gets snow on just one or two days a year, it is probably cheaper to have a basic snow clearing team and risk a few diversions than invest in a set of advanced clearing equipment which will hardly ever be used.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MAN777 & All,

I recognize that it is fashionable to mock UK airports for 'grinding to a halt' during conditions of snow, and I accept also that airports abroad which receive far more snow often give the impression of coping better. But do not be deceived. Musket90's posting is absolutely on the money.

Most snow in the UK falls at temperatures very close to zero; this means that it is "wet snow" which rapidly turns to slush. This is the worst scenario for aircraft operations as braking action is severely compromised and that means safety is a key concern. Furthermore, slush can often turn to ice later. Slush can also be flicked up onto aircraft control surfaces and freeze onto the cold metal there. This can be highly dangerous and has been the cause of accidents in the past.

Airports abroad which appear to cope well with snow often receive their falls with the temperature way below freezing. This dry powder snow is a different matter altogether; it does not melt (in conditions which remain well below freezing) and when compacted can actually provide a good braking surface. Hence, under these conditions alot less effort is required to return a runway to safe operations. But be assured that even these airports, when they receive wet snow at either end of their Winter season, suffer exactly the same issues which UK airports face routinely. Wet snow and slush accumulations must be cleared from active runways - period. Safety allows for no other course of action.

I too hate to see aircraft forced to divert away from MAN. I too become frustrated by the fact that snow clearance is a time consuming process. But I would rather see this every time than witness an aircraft skid off a runway or gather dangerous ice contamination on its control surfaces.

Educate yourselves a little. Read up on the properties of wet snow and dry snow. Once you appreciate the difference you will begin to understand why a Canadian airport keeps operating at -20C and MAN seizes up at -1C. And once you recognize this you will be able to explain to people around you (fellow passengers) that airport personnel are putting passenger safety first (at considerable expense) and not just contriving to delay your holiday. As a passenger would you really want things to be handled any differently?

And by the way, a comment on that eternal joke about railways and leaf mulch in Autumn. Greasy leaves are a very serious safety concern for rail authorities, and they know well that many of their customers will snigger and mock their efforts to maintain safe braking conditions for trains. When I read the annual headlines mocking "leaves on the line" delays, I do laugh. I laugh at the crass ignorance of the journalist concerned! And I applaud the rail authorities for running the gauntlet of public abuse as they prioritize safety on behalf of their ungrateful (or maybe just ignorant) customers. If necessary, I will even politely ask a whingeing fellow passenger if they would really like their safety to be compromised.

I hope that this would be the reaction of most posters on here also. If we will not speak up to defend those busting a gut to ensure the safety of the travelling public, then operators may become tempted to take the path of least resistance - until an incident occurs. We must never allow that to happen.

All the best.

SHED.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

And its me again - on a completely different topic!

'Travel Trade Gazette' dated 21st March carries a small report which states that El Al has plans to return to Manchester. The piece quotes Mr Len Judes who is President of the Israel-UK Chamber of Commerce. He says that El Al wishes to tap in to the conference and incentive market in the Manchester area, and hence plans to reintroduce MAN flights.

My reading of this is that Mr Judes does not appear to be a representative of the airline itself, so make of that what you will. But at least it may offer some insight into the way they are thinking. Perhaps Thomsonfly's success is concentrating some minds in Tel Aviv?

Cheers, SHED.

[al446]

Good post shed:ok:

[chiglet]

Don't forget...we operate on a "Blacktop" Runway surface in the UK. [i.e No Snow]
Thanks shed...articulate as usual
watpiktch

[MAN777]

Thanks for putting me straight on the subject of snow, its a shame that no one detected that my post was supposed to be tongue in cheek:)

[Suzeman]

Firstly ,thanks Shed for the detailed explanation on the snow clearance. Pity none of us spotted 777s tongue in cheek attitude in his rant - sorry post.

And now for something completely different. What is the current state of play with Link JB (once known as the 06 Fast Turn Off)? I see it was closed last week and is NOTAMed to be closed to the end of May. I heard a story that it may be permanently withdrawn due to structural issues?

If this is so, I'm sure it will have an impact on runway ops when on single runway 05L as aircraft will take more time to vacate as there is no RET anymore.

Suzeman (with tongue firmly out of cheek :p)

[SWBKCB]

If I remember correctly wasn't it the investigation until the Munich air crash in '58 which highlighted the particular dangers of slush as opposed to standing water or dry snow?

[Momentary Lapse]

Well, here's a first:

ML compliments Shed on a Pole on an interesting, informative, and useful post.

:D :D :D

Now, let hostilities resume!

:p :p :p

[MANFlyer]

QR tried to wait it out on Sunday and circle but ran low on fuel and had to go to LGW. One of the CO flights went to DUB. SQ decided to go straight to LHR, which was proving a decent decision as we were pushing back more or less on time.

Then the ham fisted tug operators seemed to get a bit giddy. ;) After pushing back without incident, they proceeded to drag us forward when there was a number of load bangs and then a juddering halt. Cue everyone in the J cabin and the crew up that end all looking around saying WTF was that.
We got towed back to gate (212) and ended up with a tyre change and left an hour and a half late.

Rather surprisingly J was less than half full (first time I've seen that in a LONG time) presumably (and hopefully) due to Easter Sunday. My inbound SQ328 last week was completely full as usual.

[Vuelo]

I bet it is more to do with the fact that LY have seen what a massively profitable success TOM have made of Tel Aviv from MAN and want a piece of the action!

There was a very well known petition in the local Jewish community which aimed to put pressure on LY to return, maybe that has been a factor aswell.

What did they used to operate? Twice a week or so? What were the timings?

[AldiAl]

I'm pretty sure it was twice a week, Mon & Thurs with B757's and they

arrived about 1300-ish.

[Mr A Tis]

They operated for a number of years with varying frequencies & sometimes with a 747 !
I'm surprised they haven't returned to Manchester before now. If they do, I can see TOM doing a runner. It doesn't fit in with their new bucket & spade policy, dropping all city routes.
BMI are also doing very well on the TLV-LHR route. Shame BMI are so dull & didn't pick up the MAN route at the same time. There are opportunities for BMI mainline from MAN if only they would show some bottle. Some routes could be done with "W" flights from LHR based aircraft & crew.

[roverman]

Speaking as one with some experience of airfield snow clearing operations -

Shed, your comments are very sound and spot on. The UK wet snow and marginal freezing conditions is much more difficult to handle than typical Scandinavian / North American scenarios. There IS a 'wrong type of snow' and that is what we usually get.

The question often asked by the partially-informed is "you knew it was coming, why weren't you ready for it?". There is a simple answer to this - whilst good forecasting is a bonus, you cannot begin clearing snow until it has fallen.

[aeulad]

Bmi should do something like;

first flight up from LHR with midhaul config A320, then 3 times a week MAN-TLV-MAN, 2 times a week MAN-DME-MAN(UN codeshare) and 2 times a week MAN-CAI-MAN(MS codeshare) and then operate the last one back down to LHR. Would give the MAN crews a slice of the midhaul action, with nightstops in Cairo and Tel Aviv whilst filling in 3 currently un(+der)served potential routes.

Regards

Mike

[mickyman]

Mr A Tis

Are you sure that EL AL operated B747's into

Manchester sometimes.............??

MM

[Code 100]

I definitely remember EL AL 747's in the period 1981-83 (approx) as I used to live right under the flightpath in Stockport. They used to arrive around lunchtime.

[Ian Brooks]

Yes I remember them well, usually because I used to miss them being at work in Manchester, Oh well!
Do you remember when they used the Sun D`or B707s if we are going dream again

[GLENO]

Ahhhhhh Sun D'or B707's ....remember them well...used to be every Sunday afternoon....Happy days..... Can't remember the 747's though.......they have used 767,757,707 and 737-200 in the past!

[MAN777]

I was a young spotty plane spotter in shorts in the early 70s. One winters morning at primary school in Cheadle (3 miles centreline runway 24 MANCHESTER) I remember shouting out in excitement to the teacher and class as I saw an ELAL 747 turning onto finals over Stockport. Our whole class and others poured out onto the playground to watch it glide by.

I think it was one of the first 747s to visit MAN, having diverted due fog at LHR.

Ahh happy days.

[MAN Guy]

Yes 747's did pop up here sporadically throughout LY's operations at MAN although a lot of the time it was standard 2x weekly 757 and 767 ops. They did operate to Eilat for a very short time too (mid-90's I think) as well as Tel Aviv.

I think for Tel Aviv to have any medium to long term prospects from MAN you would need someone like LY to resume services. As Mr A Tis suggests although it might be doing well for them so far, Tel Aviv doesn't really fit the Thomsonfly model now most of the city pairs have been canned to refocus on the charter market.

[CabinCrewe]

El AL 747s operated into MAN more recently but operating in El AL colours for Tesis Aviation Enterprise.

[mickyman]

CabinCrew

That was an old EL AL cargo aircraft operating a single visit for Tesis.

Various:

The fog diversion was precisely that!

I would be interested if any of you spotters can provide some dates
for EL AL B747's operating a passenger service into MAN at any time.

MM

[rutankrd]

Potted History
El-AL operated a series of charter flights and STARTED with the B747 into Manchester flight number was LY5317 operated on Tuesdays in the eighties for about two years then changed to a Sunday with a B707 in Sundor colours usually 4X-ATY finally went scheduled with a mix of of B767/B757 on Tuesdays and Thursdays (via Brussels or Amsterdam !). Service stopped as a result on interfada and economic downturn is Israel long with several other marginal routes.

[mickyman]

rutankrd

Thanks for the info and I do remember B707's operating
but must of missed the B747's.

MM

[desperatedan]

i remember el al coming into man. regularly every tuesday sometime during the early 80s.for a season. it used to arrive from gatwick late morning.this was before the regular schedule got started.great sight from under the flightpath.

[ManofMan]

Question for anyone......

Is Manchester ready for the A380 ??? I noticed that the nearest it has been to Manchester was the fly-by at Hawarden, seem to remember that Airbus brought the A340 here on its worldwide tour but no sign of the A380??

Also heard that last week during bad weather at EGLL the SQ A380 was looking at alternatives and was told that Manchester would not accept and that she had to go to EDDF !!!

If EGCC aint ready is thier any timetable as to when it will be ???

Cheers

[Tadger]

Not certain but wasn't there talk of creating an A380 stand at the east end of T3 by modifying Stand 55? Plenty of plans for apron development in that area which have planning permission, but no idea of management timescales...

[Mr A Tis]

SIA A380 LHR service, has two standard alternatives. Paris CDG & FRA.

[Tadger]

Further to my post above, here's a link to plans for the T3 apron expansion (approved last year), which shows an A380 capable stand.

http://www.publicaccess.manchester.gov.uk/associateddocs/selecteddoc.aspx?081134-DSP-0002.pdf

[FlyZB]

Tadger, thanks for that. Those show the exact details of what I have mentioned in previous posts regarding T3 future plans but I wasn't lucky enough to have visual aids!! MA are now talking about extending the T3 Pier so that the new stands on the Apron extension won't be remote. I don't think this has got board approval yet though.

Stand 12 on 'B Pier' will also be able to accomodate the A380 and they will be building a new lounge at the end of 'B Pier' specially for this. The future of 'B Pier' is very much up in the air at the minute though, as there is some debate as to whether to demolish and rebuild it or whether to simply remodel it with the existing structure. It could be a case that the T3 A380 stand will be ready 1st.

[manchestersam]

Does anybody know when these constructions are likely to occur? :)

[viscount702]

The report below would suggest Air Asia will be serving STN rather than MAN.

Has anyone any further info on this and come to that Oasis


http://www.travelbite.co.uk/news/uk/england/london/cheaper-flights-australia-on-horizon-$1215709.htm

Sorry the link does seem to work

Viscount

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Could the fact that Branson is partly behind Asia X and also code shares through VS on the SQ out of MAN, who happens to be a majority holder of VS stock, whereas at STN there is no such conflict of interest, be a possible reason why MAN is being apparently overlooked?

[MAN777]

Its an interesting conspiracy theory but I dont think its valid, because LHR is only just down the road so the damage to LHR PAX Singapore/ Virgin figures is surely greater ? especially now there is the A380 to fill every day.

[MUFC_fan]

Maybe the development at the side of T3 is for FR's benefit as much as anybodys?

Parking the a/c right next to the runway with an easy access may help get FR into MAN which is surely going to be an inevitability. U2 will also like this idea when they look to put their next three a/c into the airport along with the two already based (currently GB).

[FlyZB]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there MUFC fan. Around 12 months ago FR indicated that they wanted to open up a base at MAN but there are certain things that they want from the airport before they consider this. One of those being that they'd rather operate from what would effectively be a 'shed' with virtually no facilities, no fancy decorations, using all remote stands. And hence paying less charges! Of course MAplc won't go for this because they want to maximise revenue through as many shops, bars and restaurants as they can possibly squeeze into the terminals. So the new plans for T3 are effectively a compromise. T1 & T2 are both going through massive overhauls at the moment and will benefit from better passenger facilities once the works have finished. T3 won't see development on anything like the same scale and will be more suited to FR and of course the likes of bmibaby, EasyJet and Jet2.

[Scottie Dog]

The plans for the T3 apron extension were first made public at the end of 2006 - see my Christmas Day post below

"Went to get some fresh air to clear the head this afternoon and noticed a couple of planning application notices on Ringway Road.

One related to the demolition of the thatched cottage opposite the 24R holding bay. The second and more interesting was with regards to the closure/diversion of Ringway Road and the revised use of said road and parts of the longstay carpark for Aprons."

This obviously well pre-dates any Ryanair expansion stories (well any that might have been made public, as the airport was hoping to woo them at an earlier stage), but possibly was a little more relevant to possible easyJet expansion that had been mooted for a while.

Hopefully we will hear soon as to the next batch of Ryanair routes.

Scottie Dog

ps - did nobody every come up with an answer to Suzeman's question on the closure of RET JB??:\

[roverman]

RET Juliet-Bravo (wasn't she a nice-looking lady Copper?) has been permanently withdrawn due to deterioration in its surface. It is an old 'porous friction course' laid in 1980 - the only one of this type remaining at MAN and has reached the end of its serviceable life. Normally, it would be re-surfaced, but because JB does not feature in the future taxiway and runway exit strategy it has been withdrawn at this time. This leaves 05L without a full-scale RET. This situation is considered managable because 05L will less and less be used as a landing runway. All-day use of 05R-23L will be introduced in the medium term, with 05R the primary arrival runway on 'easterlies'. Work is planned to improve and upgrade the shallow-angled exit 'Hotel' for use in LVP.

Work to construct the first 3 stands of the T3 apron extension begins in May. These stands will initially be set back towards the runways pending the diversion of the old Ringway Road. 3 x B737-900W / A320, remote bussed. Pier extension to follow in later phases. Should be in use end-2008.

New declared distances on Runway 23L come into effect this Spring, giving 3200m (10500 feet) from Tango, and 3050m (10005 feet) from VA. A small change but confirms 23L as longest available at MAN.

Work is at an advanced stage to make MAN available as a diversion alternate for A380s. Careful planning has been underway to make sure the various elements of infrastructure and procedures are in place. This should be beneficial to carriers operating A380s into LHR, particularly those who have a MAN station also. Looking beyond this, more extensive planning continues towards being able to accept regular scheduled A380 services from 2010.

[Scottie Dog]

Just want to take this opportunity to thank both FlyZB and Roverman for their informative and accurate posts. :D

We all know that there is a lot of 'rumour' in this site - that is part of the enjoyment - but it is also much appreciated when known sources are able to post reliable data.

It will be interesting to see what the future taxiway and runway exit strategy is (pm's accepted!!).

By the way Roverman, you are quite right about her being a good-looking Copper - made my pulse race a bit. :cool:

Scottie Dog

[Ian Brooks]

Can I echo Scottie Dog, it makes very interesting reading and will start development in a different direction from what has been seen over the last few years ie: T2 and associated ramp.

That has made think I will go and dig some of my old photos out of the old pier A and freight apron from early 70s just to compare

Ian

[Adola69]

Many thanks Roverman for explaining the closure of RET JB.

However I know that Ops people realise the fact, that it'll be an utter disaster in the short term with regard to LVP ops!
You say that Work is planned to improve and upgrade the shallow-angled exit 'Hotel' for use in LVP
. This will not, by any stretch of the imagination, be achieved quickly.

So in the interim we will only have one exit from runway 05L during LVP ops and that is exit J at the end of the runway!!! Standby for a lot of diversions away from Manchester. The holding delays will be awfull as I'd imagine the inbound arrival rate would be at around 8 / per hour or less. The departure rate will also suffer badly.

I'm sorry, but to be caught out like this is at best embarrassing but in truth downright incompetence. What are all the regular surveys undertaken on the infrastructure of the taxiway system for, if not to highlight the deterioration or likely failure of a surface before it gets anywhere near that stage?
The upgrade of Link H should have been completed BEFORE JB ever got near to failure.
Now you'll be faced with trying to explain to your customers - the passengers and the Airlines (Who appear to be leaving a steady pace at the moment) of why there is an increase in the length of delays, more cancellations and flights diverted away from Manchester because they couldn't hang around for long enough!
Ah but yes, I forgot there's always that best "Get out of jail free" card to play that not only airport management can use but also the airlines, and do on a regular basis to dig themselves out of a self inflicted embarrassments, and that is
" We apologise for the late arrival / departure of flight XXX to YYY, but it's due to Air Traffic Control Delays"
It might be, but whose put the ball and chain on their feet along with a ton of cement??:mad:

[14 loop]

This stuff about EL AL

As a sprog from Bradford, back in the 1980s, the Canaries were just becoming a thing you could do from Leeds/Bradford. However Tenerife was possible, Lanzerote wasn't!

So...off to MAN we went, Uncle David taking us over the M62.

Horror, the Firemen were on strike! So as we checked in the news came through that we would be coached to (of all places) LBA for our flight. In those days Air Europe were handled by British Airways (I think - I was only a sprog) however our flight number started with UX. The check-in agent said 'Oh it's a new airline using OLD Air Europe planes'....anyway, down pier A and onto a bus back over the M62!!! The fact that Europa had 737-300s before Air Europe and when I saw her on the apron before the 32 tunnel [EC-EAK] I nearly wet myself, are things I'd rather not discuss given my poistion as a 34 year old!

On arrival at Leeds/Bradford the place was full of Police, which I knew was, well, abnormal, heck my Uncle Ken used to take little bro and myself to LBA most weekends in those days and usually it was quiet!

Once in departures looking out to the runway this smokey beast took-off, I have the reg somewhere in my records, I can still rememeber now it was a diverted EL AL Boeing 707 or (720 for purists) going back to Tel Aviv. Wonderful!

Anyway...EL AL used to come to MAN, unless the water faries were on strike!

[Scottie Dog]

Whilst I have a degree of agreement with Adola69 and his fears of a reduced landing rate in LVP conditions, I would add the following comment:

How often is 05L in use during LVPs? Normal met conditions for CAT111 operations tend to lead to a very low surface wind and more often than not with a westerly drift. So, whilst I agree with the basic concern, the chances of the delays building too much are low (says he with hand in mouth as we will probalby find 05L LVP operation tonight!!).

The next question then for Roverman is when can we expect to see 05R being upgraded to CAT111 status?

Scottie Dog

[Bagso]

..surely the chances of an A380 diversion are remote anyway.....

[Scottie Dog]

Tomorrow sees the official introduction of the Summer timetable, and it is time to review what may, or may not, be happening.

Air Berlin - Paderborn increases to 6 per week
Finnair - New overnight stopper effective 4th May
China Airlines - Reduce to 2 per week.
Air Blue - Daily to Islamabad
Centralwings - ??? not a lot
Aer Lingus - Reduce to 3 per day on Dublin, 4 per week to Cork
easyJet - 2 Based A320 operating the former GB Airways routes
Ryanair - Gerona 4 per week, Bremen and Bergamo 3 per week each and Marseille 2 per week with non-based aircraft.
Jade Cargo - Still rumoured to be starting a twice weekly service to Shenzhen in August with 747-400F
Jet2 - Down to 6 based aircraft. AMS/BCN/TLS/SXF/VLC/PRG no longer operate.
Sky Europe - Daily Bratislava
CSA - Twice daily, but the overnight stopper has gone. New daily service arrives 0855z and departs 0940z.
Singapore - Daily
Eastern Airways - 4th Stansted service Mon-Thu
Mahan Air - Plan to re-introduce IKA service effective 4th June 4 times weekly with A310 (heard this before!!)
Turkish - Up from daily to 10 per week effective August.
TACV (Cabo Verde Airlines) - Weekly to Sal (SID)
SATA - Weekly to Ponta Delgarda with A320

Cancellations

Air Canada
Bmi - 8th LHR service will not operate
Cathay - Cargo reduced to 10 flights per week

There are, I am sure, more changes but I thought these might be of interest.

All the best

Scottie Dog

ps - don't forget the clocks change tonight (1 hour less in bed)

[ManofMan]

..surely the chances of an A380 diversion are remote anyway.....

Yep would agree with that but you have to take into account crosswind, snow, runway blockages etc etc.

Given those blasted chappies at Eurocontrol the chances of seing anything from EGLL/EGKK due to fog are pretty slim nowdays as they just bloody keep ebrything on the deck in Europe and introduce rates per hour. :mad:

Like i said the chances are slim but it can and will happen, the other morning (as per my previous post) she was looking at diverting due to a contaminated runway and lots of CB's in the area......got in in the end though:)

Geee i remeber the good old days of Bimen 707's parked on the taxiways !!!!

Anyone got a time machine i can lend ???

[Ian Brooks]

ManofMan those were the days, couldn`t happen now not enough staff
and some handling agents saying we are full after 2 diversions( if we are lucky )

Ian

[Suzeman]

Thanks to Roverman for the update.

How often is 05L in use during LVPs?

Precisely Scottie - how often are we in LVP on 05 and how many additional delays/ diversions away could we expect? Very few if any I reckon. I think Adola 69 has greatly overestimated the effects of the loss of JB in LVP in his "We're all doomed Cpt Mainwaring" style post.

Surely the greater impact of losing JB will be felt when we are on single runway operation on 05L in the lunchtime or evening periods. The 1200 -1500 period can get very busy for movements and this will further reduce the single runway capability which is already less on 05L than 23R due to less RETs - er well none now - and less holding space to sequence departures efficiently.

You can only declare runway capacity as a single figure and I believe this is done on the capability in the 23 direction which is more often in use - and would be a higher figure anyway. So when MAN is on 05L single runway, for any given flow of traffic, the likelyhood/magnitude of delay was always higher anyway and the loss of JB will exacerbate this.

So some questions

A far more important issue to sort out is getting approvals for dual runway LVP operation. What is the state of play with this? To go down from a declared two runway capacity of 60/hour or whatever to single runway LVP (ops - 20 ish/hour?) is what causes lots of disruption. LVP in the mornings - the most likely time of day -causes huge amounts of delays for the first wave of departures and knocks on for the rest of the day.

In addition Roverman said
All-day use of 05R-23L will be introduced in the medium term, with 05R the primary arrival runway on 'easterlies'

How long is the medium term? Will the lunchtime gap ever be filled with movement totals on the decline as there is a cost implication of filling it in?

I suppose this is the wider dilemma - can the Airport justify additional expenditure on this (and other infrastructure projects) with movement and passenger numbers falling? Filling this gap requires additional controllers to be recruited, trained and validated. Meanwhile, the bigger projects take some time to plan and deliver -in some case years - whilst the industry changes much more rapidly and airlines can add/subtract capacity relatively quickly. It's a very risky business out there, especially for airport investments.

Suzeman

[Scottie Dog]

I suppose I should have included in my figures for Summer 08 the fact that planned movements are -2.8pc down and seats available -1.4pc on the same period last year.

Now that might seem like gloom and despondancy, however compared with the same figures at start of season for Winter 07/08 of -4pc, and with the mergers of MyTravel/Thomas Cook and First Choice/Thomsonfly it may not be quite as bad as it might have been.

For a comparision STN is showing -6.2pc on movments and -2.9pc on seats.

Finally having walked to the airport this afternoon - and being caught in the downpour - I did wonder whether I had brought upon myself a case of the LVPs, but at least we were on 23R!!:{

[Suzeman]

but at least we were on 24R!!

Seems like you got water into the brain cells today Scottie, but it's an easy mistake for us old timers to make. :p

Suzeman

[spannersatcx]

China Airlines - Reduce to 2 per week.
Wrong still 3

Cathay - Cargo reduced to 10 flights per week

and wrong again, now 8.

[Wodrick]

Anyone know what is happening at T2 ? Shops emptied and areas cordoned off ?

[roverman]

The decision to withdraw (or add) any airfield facility is not taken lightly, only after careful discussion and hazard analysis involving Operations and ATC. In the case of RET 'JB' the LVP scenario was considered, and, as someone else has pointed out, no one could recall when 05L (or 06L) was last used in LVP. The negligible surface wind usually experienced in LVP means that the runway direction can be chosen, and invariably this is 23. Even when 05 is used, JB can be problematic because it delivers arriving aircraft straight into the taxiway bottleneck at the end of Pier A. This can create conflicts and require co-ordnation between Air and Ground controllers, often with next to no notice. So JB is not the capacity panacea in LVP or normal Ops, it is better for aircraft to vacate further east, allowing more routing and sequencing options in the T3 area - an area which is set to gain more stands. It is for these reasons that JB has been deleted from the Airfield Masterplan.

All-day operations on 05R-23L, and the upgrade of 05R to CAT III are development objectives in the Masterplan with no fixed time-scale. Such developments, whilst operationally attractive, have to be financially justified. The business case for both makes more sense as traffic grows. Hopefully it will soon.

[FlyZB]

The works currently taking place in T2 are the start of the redevelopment scheme, which is basically mirroring what is happening in T1. By July, everything in T2 beyond checkin will be airside. The hordings that are currently in checkin is where the new escalators and lifts will take passengers up to the new & larger security search area where the Atlantic Suite previously was. Many of the shops are closed on the current landside concourse because this is being transformed into a European style shopping 'Piazza' which will be the first area passengers arrive at once theyve cleared security and dropped back down to that level. The current OBC will be taken over by Alpha.

[Wodrick]

Sorry not the question although I admit badly expressed. Beloved was sent home early from work today (T2DF) because the Law closed the shop, they had already closed off the area from the DF shop to the higher numbered stands and were extending. There were Pongos in attendance. One has presumed a suspect item found but would have liked to know, she looses money you see !

[TURIN]

Loose with her money eh? Send her over.

[Mr A Tis]

Further entrenchment by the ailing Central Wings, now sees ALL MAN flights withdrawn. MAN no longer on the Central Wings route map.
Correct me if Im wrong, but there now are no flights at all from MAN to anywhere in Poland.

[FlyZB]

Ahhh sorry, getting a little confused. I know what you're talking about now! T2 airside was closed for several hours yesterday after a suspect package was found. The bomb squad were called in. I don't know the full details but what does confuse me a little is that I believe the supposed device was in one of the airside offices at ramp level. So how anything suspecious got through security and into an airline/handling agent office is a mystery. Someone else on here may have some more detailed information.

[Vuelo]

Correct me if Im wrong, but there now are no flights at all from MAN to anywhere in Poland.

Frantic meetings are apparently ongoing with LO/WW/FR and even W6! Seems MAplc are keen not to allow the grass to grow under their feet on this one!

My bet is on FR.....

[MUFC_fan]

Think we might know where the next FR base is to be...

[Vuelo]

I couldn't possibly comment!!

[FlyZB]

MAN the next FR base? Vuelo & MUFC fan do you have some inside information on this one? I think it will happen at some point but not just yet. However, FR are due to announce four new routes from MAN any time soon and I wouldn't bet against them having a predominantely Polish feel!

[MUFC_fan]

And where will the a/c for the Polish routes come from? MAN base?

No info but it looks likely.

[wouldhave]

Apparently the Oasis Hong Kong flights have been loaded into Hong Kong Airports website starting 3 July 2008.

Flights on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday with flight numbers O8501 and O8502 according to another site

[tigermike]

I will still not be convinced with this until you can buy tickets on their website. Perhaps I should not be convinced until it touches down on 23 given the Cathay fiasco last time.

[mickyman]

What the date today again, I didnt hear you the first time........

MM

[Suzeman]

Tigermike

The whole Cathay business fell apart because they tried the impossible - routing through Russia and getting 5th freedom traffic rights. It was inevitable that this would run into difficulties.

As far as I'm aware there are no such difficult bilateral issues with Oasis and their proposed routing but if there are, I'm sure the MAN team will fight for the rights - as indeed they did on the Cathay business.

However, I agree that it will be better to see bookings available on their website rather than MAN just being a proposed point. But the fact that it has now just appeared on the Hong Kong Airport website must be progress.

So fingers crossed for an announcement soon if the start date of July is to be successful.

Suzeman

[spannersatcx]

The whole Cathay business fell apart because of BMI, :mad:

[Suzeman]

The whole Cathay business fell apart because of BMI, :mad:

The BD issues were one big factor in this but by no means the only ones...:ugh:

And if CX had tried it through anywhere other than Russia, it would have helped too :(

Suzeman

[conradmueller]

Routing of the Oasis flights as shown in HKG-Airport Schedule is:
HKG-DUS-MAN-HKG.
Dep. in HKG at 0.30 hrs and arrival back in HKG at 12.30 hrs.

[Suzeman]

Found the article below on UK Airport News.

Looks like the Air Asia X flights will eventually go to STN. :{

Will they start sponsoring Leyton Orient instead ? :E

Suzeman





Malaysian no-frills airline Air Asia X has delayed the start of its UK flights from the Autumn to the end of the year, but promised return fares to Kuala Lumpur from £300 once it is running. The airline has had difficulty securing suitable Airbus A340 aircraft to operate the route, but still plans to launch by Christmas.

Chief executive Azran Osman-Rani said the airline’s low operating costs would allow it to offer market-beating fares of £300 return including taxes and charges. He said: ‘It is something we are prepared to not make money on at today’s oil prices because if we establish the London link, we will get a whole suite of new travellers.’

The carrier’s arrival in the UK will be backed by a huge marketing campaign stressing the connections from Kuala Lumpur. Air Asia X offers Australia’s Gold Coast and Hangzhou, about 100 miles from Shanghai, while sister brand Air Asia flies to more than 40 destinations across Asia.

Passengers will have to buy food onboard Air Asia X, and Mr Osman-Rani said customers who pre-ordered would pay around £8 for a meal with drinks.

The airline looks certain to choose Stansted as its UK entry point (as indicated by the 'London link' comment in the statement above). Mr Osman-Rani admitted Stansted would be the logical choice, adding ‘we are a logical company.'

Air Asia X, in which Sir Richard Branson has a 16% investment, will offer seat-back videos in economy and Mr Osman-Rani said the carrier also planned to offer inflight wi-fi. A premium economy section, priced between £900 and £1000 return, will offer flatbed seats with a 50-inch seat pitch, but passengers will still have to buy food.

(My bold/underline)

[MUFC_fan]

They sponsor the PGMOL aswell who are based at Lancaster House, Soho Sq.:ok:

[Vuelo]

O8 have the green light at MAN, bookings open soon I am told. Days of week as mentioned up to daily as service develops then direct as appropriate. Great news.

[FlyZB]

Well, 1 out of 2 aint bad! Just hope that Air Asia X see that potential of MAN services sometime in the near future. I know for a fact that the board are working extremely hard behind the scenes to get more long haul services to the airport. Unfortunately much of the hard work isn't being paid off. However over the next year I would expect NW to start DTW and also Thai to start BKK, as from recent meetings these airlines have shown the most interest in operating out of the airport.

With regards to the Polish routes, LOT are looking at re-introducing MAN-WAW. As for the other routes, it could be a while before we see these on the departure boards again. bmibaby have no spare aircraft for the Summer season & all has gone very quiet with FR lately.

[Suzeman]

Firstly thanks to Roverman for his informative and diplomatic reply to the issues raised about Link JB and the timing of other developments. Methinks that you should offer your services to BA at T5 who haven't been doing so well at PR and diplomacy in the last week !! ;)


Fly ZB

Thanks also for your informative posts.

I know for a fact that the board are working extremely hard behind the scenes to get more long haul services to the airport.

I would have thought that it is the MA sales people who are doing the hard work? I wouldn't have thought a Company Board would be involved in the detail of this, only a broad strategy? :confused:

Anyway whoever it is, let's wish them good luck. It is good to hear that there have been productive meetings with TG and NW although these developments seem to have been "next year" for several years now.:eek:

Suzeman

[MANFlyer]

and also Thai to start BKK

Please God, let us have at least one proper long haul full service carrier starting...

Oasis = No chance of CX
Air Asia X = No chance of MH*

*I believe their recent decision to start a twice weekly LGW service instead of coming back to MAN has been queried by a few TA's.

[Scottie Dog]

Any comments on following NOTAM?

AGA : Q)EGTT/QFUXX/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5321N00216W005
FROM 08/04/02 16:04 TO 08/04/05 17:00 A1007/08
E) FUEL SUPPLY JET A1 DISRUPTED. AIRPORT EXPERIENCING STOCK SHORTAGE
ALL AIRLINES REQUESTED TO MAXIMISE TANKERING

[1station]

Aparrently possible contamination at Stanlow resulting in problems supplying the field. All airlines requested to tanker inbound. Further update from airport tomorrow (Friday) at Noon.

All seemed to cope OK today, but question is how long before the tanks run dry??:\