MANCHESTER - 5

[roverman]

G-STAW, I think you need to be more wary of your sources. Firstly, MAN is not yet declared as available to take the A380 even as a diversion alternate, work continues to that end and is expected to be completed very soon. There have been no discussions with SQ about any planned visit by the A380, only as a diversion in the event of a problem at LHR. Probably someone getting carried away with excitement about that.

MAN did not 'nearly lose its licence last year due to the state of the taxiways'. Taxiway condition was a major concern three years ago but unless you have been living on the moon since then you'll will have noticed that a huge amount of taxiway rebuilding and improvement has been taking place, and this will continue. The CAA are very satisfied with the programme and the way in which the work is being managed.

[G-STAW]

Hello Roverman,

A380;I was told different, maybe these people are talking utter rubbish? personally i wouldnt of though they'd make this kind of stuff up.....

with regards to the CAA, i was shown a copy of a document a few weeks ago regarding this very thing, maybe that was made up aswell......

Mind boggling.....

G-STAW

[red5111]

The news that AA are reducing to five a week! Where can I confirm this.
This is bad news.

[JDNMANUK]

It's already in Amadeus I'm afraid - no ops Tue/Thu

[roverman]

G-STAW, I would be interested to see the document that was shown to you. CAA Audit reports are confidential and held only by the CAA and the Aerodrome Licensee, so I would be surprised if you saw anything official. The CAA only withdraws an aerodrome licence in very grave circumstances where there has been a systematic failure of safety management across a range of issues, such as happened at LDY a while back. The condition of Taxiway Delta at MAN was the subject of a CAA audit report in 2005 which (in part) lead to the acceleration of a taxiway repair programme. There was never any question of the aerodrome licence being withdrawn, that would be a ridiculous course of action when a sub-standard taxiway can simply be closed to alleviate any safety concerns.

[roy2711]

well thats nine trans atl flts a week from end of oct that maplc have lost
hopefully no more:{

[G-STAW]

Roverman,

i think someone may of told me wrong?cant mention who he was put he said the airport license was "nearly" taken off MAN, someones eggagerating...

regarding the document it was an AIP style document which shown the repaving schedule, which the airport had to carry out within 12 months, i believe this was available on the net (ill try and find it).

they're still working on repaving, the west side of alpha is still being repaved, they finished work on November a few weeks ago.

G-STAW

[MUFC_fan]

Another reason why MAN need a long haul carrier commited to the region.

BA cancel and now AA reduce frequency. BA don't want MAN and when BA/AA get married within the next 12 months I would be very surprised if the shiny tin cans will be flying to ORD by the time the honeymoon is over.

Come on BD - get your arse into gear!

[G-STAW]

I completely agree, now Lufthansa has said its going to up its stake in BD, hopefully they'll get their act together and build its portfolio at MAN,

i remember a couple of months ago (in airliner world) LH said it was thinking of launching more routes from MAN, to USA? due to the openskies agreement...

time will tell......

[MUFC_fan]

For LH I would say ZRH is above MAN but I wouldn't count it out. I wouldn't count anything out.

The problem is, if LH were to launch MAN-US flights which at the moment is VERY unlikely, BA wouldn't respond by expanding at MAN, they would probably go for DUS or MUC!

BD or VS are the airport's best options at the moment with maybe a couple of routes from Z4.

[RAPC]

BD can't get their arse into gear. The small matter of no long haul planes knocking about or on the horizon puts paid to that, much is the pity.

[DeltaIndiaSierraPapa]

BD can't get their arse into gear. The small matter of no long haul planes knocking about or on the horizon puts paid to that, much is the pity.

For how many years has BD been giving that lame excuse. Surely they could whack together 3 or 4 A330's or 767's... How many woul dthey need to pick up more lonhaul flights out of MAN? Not like they would instantly need 20 or something. Hell they have been managing their current portfolio ex MAN with 3 very hard worked A330's.... I just dont think they really want to. I reckon that LH has done a deal with Turner to keep the status quo until such time as the old man decides he has had enough of the airline business. Keeps the price down and Turner would then be rewarded handsomely by his new masters at LH.

[Scottie Dog]

From a point of perceived reliability I think that I would prefer to trust the information from Roverman over that being put out second-hand by G-STAW.

Nothing personal but I have a strong feeling that I know who Roverman is, and his posts have always been completely accurate and factual.

Regards

Scottie Dog

[G-STAW]

From a point of perceived reliability I think that I would prefer to trust the information from Roverman over that being put out second-hand by G-STAW.

Nothing personal but I have a strong feeling that I know who Roverman is, and his posts have always been completely accurate and factual.

Regards

Scottie Dog


Im only stating what people in the know are telling me, whether its fact or fiction,

anyway....

anyone know why AA has cancelled their winter ORD schedule?

is it pure a poor load decision?or something else?

G-STAW

[Suzeman]

From a point of perceived reliability I think that I would prefer to trust the information from Roverman over that being put out second-hand by G-STAW.


Well said Scottie :ok: Beat me to it.

Suzeman

[Adola69]

Hello mm - Ive taken the Micky out of you in the title of this reply.

Lesson 1. Grammar
It reads as though you are a complete idiot is that
how you intended it?

There should be a full-stop after idiot, followed by a capital I in Is.

Lesson 2
Never assume that I'm a Complete idiot, I'm still a growing lad.
I hope to eventually attain your level in that department but it'll take a lot of practice over quite a few years, by which time you'll have gone on to even higher levels of idiocy.

Lesson 3
Try to learn that not all postings are literary works of art and some try to inject a little humour at times into a point they are making.

Hope you get better soon.
:ugh:

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I've heard from a very, very good source, that AA cut the ORD service on BA's command.....

It's an absolute travesty.

[lexoncd]

I've heard from a very, very good source, that AA cut the ORD service on BA's command.....

Given the recent anti trust investigations the last thing AA or BA would do is discuss their operations at Manchester. It may be a simple case of commercial considerations.

[Skipness One Echo]

This is an established long running and succesful route, mainly because it was run daily for years. American are retrenching as they are losing cash, perhaps they feel that the yields up against so many other US carriers at Manchester are not worth the effort any more. I agree that it does appear a first step towards withdrawal alas....

[Bagso]

Re AA....the hand of BA has a long reach and sadly Muirhead and his cronies have no will to take them on......as I said previosly they should have caused a stink and thrown them out as soon as the decision to ditch JFK was made.......

They fixed QF CX and IB and now they are sorting out AA.

PS well said Adola...clearly our learned friend does not do irony.........:ok:

[steve wilson]

This is just BA yet again protecting their own slot allocation out of LHR by filling their jets full of interlined pax from the regions on the shuttle at the expense of direct flights from the regions.

If BA does manage to tie up with AA, KLM, AFR, AZ then the regions will loose more direct services.

I know its akin to sleeping with the enemy but maybe Plane Stupid could be encouraged to put pressure on BA to leave the regions alone. Afterall an interlined Pax is two take off and landings as opposed to one through what is already a congested LHR.

Steve

[mickyman]

Adola69

You have answered my question......

MM

[Suzeman]

There should be a full-stop after idiot, followed by a capital I in Is.


Adola

Not necessarily - instead you could put a dash after idiot, rather than a full stop. :E But I agree that you do need some punctuation.......

And your original post was a very useful way of comparing the "delights" of air travel to London with the relatively hassle free train journey - signals in the Milton Keynes area permitting....:ooh:

Can we have the next one in rhyme please? :ok:

Suzeman

[Skipness One Echo]

Not sure if BA os really at work here, they don't have anti trust immunity with AA though they have been partners for ages, seems odd the timing of this.

[steve wilson]

You wanted a post in rhyme, happy to oblige.

There was an airline boss called Willie
Whos passengers thought he was silly
Down to Heathrow they'd go
Bags would be lost, oh what woe
But their jet it was a no-show

He made them all sleep on the floor
No blankets or food very poor
And when they awoke
They heard from Willie the bloke
Your not flying today, the planes broke

[1station]

Euromanx have this morning ceased operations. All passengers booked are to be carried by Flybe.

Good Luck to all the guys over there on the island. You have been a pleasure to work with and I wish you all the very best for the future.

[j4ckos mate]

I have never posted on here before, but read many many times.
it seems to me since having to register there have been alot more pointless comments, threads, and petty arguments.

[Euroboy39]

Such as that one.

(And this one).

Haha.

Is the AA 5x weekly confirmed then? Hopefully, a bit less competition accross the Atlantic will allow all carriers to maintain acceptable LFs over the coming winter season, sharing the passengers over fewer flights. Do you think the 5x service could be a product of exchange rates, with it being so expensive for the Americans in the UK? Do more Americans travel with AA and more Brits with BMI on the route? I am just speculating here...

[HOVIS]

STORM Eng are chasing EK triple 7s.
Story is EK to go 3 times a day this winter.

[Bagso]

Please God...how about Emirates basing 3 times 777 at Manchester and take on BA to US....or indeed LH !

[G-STAW]

STORM Eng are chasing EK triple 7s.
Story is EK to go 3 times a day this winter.



ive heard this also, people are saying they're going three daily with one A380 early morning (which will give better connectiond in dubai?), and obsviously keeping the other two daily services.

G-STAW

[MUFC_fan]

Adding an A380 to two 77W flights would double seat numbers which would not be filled instantly. Also, the A380 coming to MAN (if there would be one which I assume there will be one day) will be the larger capacity version as they do not operate F to MAN. That would mean and extra 1200+ seats per day!

I think they will probably do what they usually do. Add an A330 morning departure, then upgrade it accordingly, and if the other two flights are anything to go by - it won't be long before a third 77W will be at the so called famous EK gate at T2.

[Ringwayman]

Per MUFC's posting (beating me by a few seconds in posting the same info!), we're not yet having consistent 80% loads if I remember correctly i.e. for months on end. Once we see that 80% level beaten on a regular basis then we'll get the expansion.

But a 3rd daily flight would mean no A380s for a long time (more than 5 years, perhaps nearer 10), as it would probably launch with an A330 then upgrade to 772 then to 77W, each time adding a limited number of seats to fill. Or, dependent on connectivity at DXB, perhaps the 77W may go onto the new service, with A330 going on the evening service.

[mickyman]

G-STAW

Perhaps it was a typo error or mis-heard (A380?) - as an A330 would
seem to be more the Emirates way of upping services as
demand is generated.

MM

[Ian Brooks]

Going back to the American Airlines thread, noticed that some Italian routes are being cut completely of down to 5 a week over the winter so they must be feeling the pinch on Europe routes with exchange rates as they are

Ian

[rkenyon]

Someone posted on another site that Emirates have finally got their wish and are building their own lounge. This is in the old Lancaster restaurant in T1 (I assume that place did exist - I can't recall it).

So, yet another move for Emirates back to T1.

Also posted was the 3rd flight. This has been rumoured for a least 2 years though, so I'll believe it when I see it. However, it is quite difficult these days to get a business class seat from MAN, so maybe they're looking to sort that out.

Even if they only have 80% loadings, if J class is full, they won't be complaining.

[G-STAW]

G-STAW

Perhaps it was a typo error or mis-heard (A380?) - as an A330 would
seem to be more the Emirates way of upping services as
demand is generated.

MM


yep, i meant it could happen, like ringwayman said it could be 5 years before we see the A380. i agree with you, going three daily with an extra A330 early morning would prove to be the best option for now.....

i wonder what would happen if EK did intoduce the A380, would they downgrade their noon/evening services to A330's?thus upgrading accordingly?

interesting!

G-STAW

[brian_dromey]

Hi guys,

Just wondering how the BD A319/A321 operating for WW is going? Are threr particular flights this aircraft operates or can it be seen across the network ex MAN?

Cheers,
Brian.

[bermudatriangle]

the future for MAN is locost.....EK 3 times daily ?? i doubt it..only so much traffic connecting to aussie and the subcontinent.Fr are the future,forget AA and the premium carriers across the pond.manchester is a low yield,bucket and spade gateway.the only hope for expansion comes at the expense of liverpool....most of ryanairs' pax ex liverpool come from the manchester catchment area,if manchester offer the right deal Fr will expand big time.otherwise it's just charter,charter and stagnation.

[MUFC_fan]

bermudatriangle,

(*whisper*) Good answer, just don't tell SQ, EK, QR, EY, US, AA, DL, CO and all the other business class carriers about it!:ok::rolleyes:

MAN has a big business base. Yes, there is a lot of charter traffic, mainly because we Northerners like to travel alot and MAN hass been at it for donkey's years. All three markets work out of MAN and hopefully they will continue to for years to come!

[Skipness One Echo]

(*whisper*) Good answer, just don't tell SQ, EK, QR, EY, US, AA, DL, CO and all the other business class carriers about it!

In fairness what you mean is that they offer business class I think. However, any meaningful growth at MAN will come from the low cost sector. The long haul multi class market isn't growing at anywhere near the same rate. Indeed with AA cutting back and BA pulling JFK, it is in some ways in reverse. Even Singapore is keen to cut back to five a week this winter....

[Mr A Tis]

Nice wind up Bermuda & Skippy - but that one's been done to death before.

Anyone who uses EK, SIA & LH will know J class is often overbooked.
It has nothing to do with "demand" but only to do with channelling all available traffic via LHR to make up their numbers down there as they can't provide the yield they need for using that high cost airport.
My experience shows many BA long haul flights, with less than 150 pax, sometime less than 100 & J class almost empty. The regions are turning their backs on LHR & using other euro hubs.
I don't think anywhere is going to grow these next couple of years, in that respect MAN is no different to LHR. That goes for the lo co sector too, whether it be MAN or STN / LGW

[Vuelo]

FR are to announce Hahn tomorrow.

[bermudatriangle]

the writing is on the wall...manchester as a major FR base...lo cost operation.just look at terminal 3,BA have almost gone,flybe,bmibaby,the terminal is just like blackpool pleasure beach.ryanair expanding on a monthly basis....will resemble a bigger version of john lennon airport before long.

[MUFC_fan]

FR are looking commited. Not exactly the easiest route to start - aginst LH/BD!

It's in the online check-in system already but no frequency. I'm guessing it will be at least daily?

[Charlie Roy]

FR are to announce Hahn tomorrow.

Liverpool will be disappointed that they didn't bag this route :ouch:

[chiglet]

manchester as a major FR base...lo cost operation.just look at terminal 3,BA have almost gone,

Apart from the Shuttles and [soon to go]JFK.... BA went eons ago. BACON et al tried but with sod all support the inevitable happend

FR are looking commited. Not exactly the easiest route to start - aginst LH/BD!

I presume that you are talking "Codesharing" here.
Both Flybee and DLH fly to FRA/Frankfurt am Main. British Midland don't.
I only hope that it isn't a "Late night addon" unlike their [FR] new "services"
watp iktch

[tigermike]

now bookable from 26 October, 4 per week (Mon,Wed,Fri,Sun) in the evening except Wed which is an afternoon departure.
obviously not going for the business market.

[en2r]

obviously not going for the business market
Hahn is 120km from Frankfurt. Its a bit too far to be attracting the Frankfurt business market.

[MUFC_fan]

Well the new FR routes look like they are doing well. Will hopefully find out tomorrow how well they have officially done when the 1st set of Apr results are released by the CAA.

Just looking at flight prices for Scotland/N. Ireland/EIRE arriving today and tomorrow and departing Thursday - not very cheap! Most flights are booked up. On Thursday MAN-GLA only has 5 seats left on the entire days operation inc. BE/BD!

Could this be a record month for MAN? They not only have the UEFA cup final this week but the wave of 747s arriving next week for the Mancunian exodus to paint the Red Square redder than red.

[mickyman]

FR @ Manchester

It seems that Ryanair are treating Manchester with a little
caution - as opposed to what has been their usual frenzied announcements.
Perhaps Birmingham was the last to receive the full Ryanair
treatment.

Maybe the days of this airline announcing 10 or 20 routes
from a new base have gone for good.

Economic reality hitting home.

MM

[Jamman]

Well I think that is the Plan to have all the low costs into T3, good move too in my opinion. Move all the higher cost airlines into T1 and T2 to improve the passenger food/shopping experience, which T3 is seriously lacking.

[andy mach 1]

With the news of the new route to Hahn Bremen is the only other route available in the booking system so far for the Winter. Looks like a phased release of routes.

Andrew

[MUFC_fan]

http://www.easyjet.com/EN/News/flights_from_manchester_easyjet.html

[Suzeman]

Could this be a record month for MAN? They not only have the UEFA cup final this week but the wave of 747s arriving next week for the Mancunian exodus to paint the Red Square redder than red

I don't think so. The final in MAN tomorrow will have a limited number of flights - and at least of the 5 expected Russian flights today have been cancelled:{.

The Utd invasion of MOW next week will produce more pax but combined I don't think that it will come near to the May 2003 invasion for the Champions League Final. And all this is on an underlying lower base of traffic I think.

But it would be nice to be proved wrong

Suzeman

[bazzab68]

Anyone have a final list of what is actually gonna turn up tomorrow, Seems the viewing park maybe full but a damp squib in terms of russian movements. Any other expected movements other than the extra russian flights to look out for???

Thanks in advance
Barry

[Suzeman]

There is already a thread on this subject in Spectator's Balcony.

For lists try www.ringwayreports.co.uk (http://www.ringwayreports.co.uk)

Suzeman

[bermudatriangle]

when will manchester realise that the only growth will be locost...ie ryanair/jet2 and in some cases flybe.just a bucket and spade gateway...orlando/tenerife and malaga..with the odd dubai in between.gill thomson would loose sleep over the current state of affairs.was in dubai last week,full of football shirts,tattoos and vulgar people...like tenerife but 3 hour further,enough said !

[Ian Brooks]

Bermuda you have already been round all three sides of your triangle this last posting is just repeat of your last post

There are many business people who either live in Manchester or need to come to Manchester so there will always be a demand for business flights
I used to work in business travel and most people did not want to fly on Ryanair etc because they don`t offer what business people require
the exception is Easyjet because their schedules on city routes tend to lend themselves to business pax ( hopefully soon Manchester to fill the gaps left by Bacon/Flybe etc )

Ian

[Homo Simpson]

Bermuda you are either a wind up merchant or judging by your lack of grammer etc plain daft!

[Mr A Tis]

Bermuda, do you have to post the same message EVERY week? We´´ve read it many times already, thanks.

Disappointed at the new T1 departure hall FORCED to walk single file through the new Duty Free shop, as there is no other way to the gates.

Even worse my Lufty A321 had to taxi back to the gate as the agents at MAN had "forgot" to offload the inbound cargo. Now that wasn´t very impressive at all. Lufty Captain not happy !

[G-STAW]

Even worse my Lufty A321 had to taxi back to the gate as the agents at MAN had "forgot" to offload the inbound cargo. Now that wasn´t very impressive at all. Lufty Captain not happy !



yep, the guy works for my company, looks like he may be sacked, and it wasnt just the captain who was unhappy either.......

G-STAW

[Skipness One Echo]

Yes comedy cuts ensued as the Lufty heads for the holding point and is asked to call company.....I couldn't believe it !

[MUFC_fan]

Is there any flights for the Champions League final flying from T3 at MAN? The reason is my mum and friends are on a WW flight to Bordeaux. Cheers.

[Bagso]

.......about 40+ if all the flight plans come to fruition and they all turn up.....see www ringwayreports:D

[MUFC_fan]

Through T3?!

I know there will be some delays when out on the taxiways etc. but she says she is not bothered about that. She was just wondering whether Terminal 3 will be full of the best supporters in the world?:ok:

Cheers.

[Ian Brooks]

No they are flying from Luton

Light blue touch paper and stand back!

Ian

[MUFC_fan]

Ian Brooks

I am not going to go into how wrong your comment is!:ok: (Anyway...our real fans are Irish if we are going to be picky!:ok:)

On a serious note, I am guessing T1 and T2 will see most of the traffic as MAN's T3 is usually full at 6am anyway with or without the fans!

[Ian Brooks]

MUFC only teasing mate, may the best team win on Wednesday, probably a very close boring game which I hope it isn`t for English football sake
Unfortunately I will miss quite a bit of it due work Oh well !

It is certainly helping fill the coffers of MAN and LTN Oh and DUB


Ian

Edited to add DUB

[lexxity]

bmi certainly have two charters out at 0400 and 0500 and then there will be the fans transiting LHR to DME. Busy day all round I should think.

[MUFC_fan]

I'm guessing at least 1 of them will be an A332 if not both?

Cheers.

[G-STAW]

one of BMI a330s was in tech in the thomas cook hanger during last week, i did read that its doing the moscow run.....

btw, the machester united team are flying out tomorrow at 10am from Ocean Sky, ill try and get over......



G-STAW

[MUFC_fan]

They should get that old bird sat in retirement at MA viewing park back into the sky and re-do the '99 "thing!"

More value on that flight than on Air Force One - literally!

[Tower1]

Just returned from a two week trip, used T1. After all the negative reports about T1, was somewhat surprised at the speed which we checked in and cleared security, 10 Minutes on a Sunday lunch time.

A lot of comment has been made about T1 becoming a shopping arcade, but are we looking at all this from a male prospective, (I write as one who detest shopping). The ladies may appreciate it, and Amsterdam Airport is renowned for its shops and duty free area which creates a lot of revenue, and a continual source of revenue is what Manchester Airport requires.

Question for FLY ZB or any one else in the know at the airport, on trying to have a meal at the airport,one of the restaurants quoted 30 minutes before we could be seated, not very good when your restricted on the amount of free time you have, and the second one had a lot of food uncovered, and was being touched numerous times by children, as well as staff without any gloves on their hands.
Question 1 - are their any plans for more restaurants especially now that the dear old Lancaster has disappeared .
Question 2 - who is responsible for food hygiene regulations, the airport or
the franchisee.

MUFC. As a supporter of another well known club in the city I wish you well for the 21 May. I think that you said you were going to the match, just out of interest which route are you taking.

Regards
Tower

[EI-CFC]

Disappointed at the new T1 departure hall FORCED to walk single file through the new Duty Free shop, as there is no other way to the gates.

Noticed that last week. I'm assuming it's is a permanent route by the layout, and not just due to construction. If so, euugh, bad MAN management.

[DeltaIndiaSierraPapa]

Tell you what was piss funny though.... Last week I was walking through there and s poor lady was forced to walk the duty free gauntlet by the greedy management at MAN and she was with 2 little kids. One in a pram and the other (about 3 or 4 I would guess) in tow. She also had a trolley bag that her little 3 year old lad was kindly dragging for her. Of course he also kindly dragged it into one of the displays knocking over a bottle of Dom.

Totally the airports fault. When I travel with my kids I wouldn't dream of taking them in duty free (as I am certain most parents wouldn't either). Kids are inherently clumsy and like to pick things up to ask... WHAT'S THIS? The walkway through DF is way too narrow and it does just about force you into a single file queue. It is pathetic!

[MUFC_fan]

Just collected my Grandparents this morning off of VS078 this morning - what a fiasco!

The flight arrived and there was no gate so parked on stand. Upon entering the terminal (obviously T2) they were confronted with EK's delayed flight, PHL, PRG etc. all passing through T2 arrivals at the same time. BGI, DXB and PHL is over 900 people at once!

Another two customer MAN T2 has lost. They now promise never to fly from the terminal again! Hope it improves by tomorrow as I'm going out to Moscow!:eek: Also using the airport twice again so far before Xmas!

Apparently the flight from DXB was diverted yesterday on route due to engine problems? Islamabad diversion? That is what was being said in the terminal but not sure what actually happened.

[GavinC]

Having to walk through dutyfree happens at EMA and Southampton. Its not something i expected them to do at MAN. Given the amount of airside space they now have, having to go single file through duty free seems ridiculous quite frankly.
Hope it is temporary. I'll be off through T1 on June 12th to see for myself anyhow.

[Skipness One Echo]

It's DELIBERATE. Happens at all BAA Airports, as I always find myself hopping on one leg putting my shoes back on only to narrowly avoid the expensive alcohol displays ! Maximises revenue as forces people past high yield retail space. It's commonly known as "greed".

[G-STAW]

Just collected my Grandparents this morning off of VS078 this morning - what a fiasco!

The flight arrived and there was no gate so parked on stand. Upon entering the terminal (obviously T2) they were confronted with EK's delayed flight, PHL, PRG etc. all passing through T2 arrivals at the same time. BGI, DXB and PHL is over 900 people at once!



yep, its been parking on stands 218/219 for the last few weeks actually.



Apparently the flight from DXB was diverted yesterday on route due to engine problems? Islamabad diversion? That is what was being said in the terminal but not sure what actually happened.



ahh, that explains why it was on stand 85, saw the crew in the downstairs lounge, look pritty pissed off, this explain why....

btw saw the man utd team jet off today, very nice A319 jet, owned by Daimler Chrysler Aviation D-ADNA (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=D-ADNA&distinct_entry=true)....


G-STAW

[adam12345]

Looks like BmiBaby are commited to Manchester and are planning to base 5 more aircraft at Manchester over the next 5 years with plans to almost triple the amount of routes.

http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080519/FREE/125219792/-1/breaking/-/-/more-news

[spannersatcx]

VS have decided to park remote as it is cheaper than getting a stand on the terminal before 12. 78 always goes remote as it positions to LGW from MAN. Average time til last pax off from on blocks is around 40 mins, unless people start complaining it will remain so.

[wnjmurphy]

MUFC Fan.

Was it today that your relative was flying out of MAN or tomorrow?

Certainly busier than "norm" today although didn't see too many obvious football fans (those trekking out via Heathrow whilst Moscow bound.

Likely to be busy next couple of days, keeps me in regular work. :cool:

[EI-CFC]

Hope it is temporary. I'll be off through T1 on June 12th to see for myself anyhow.

Suspect it won't be - but with the amount of space they've (not) given people, plus no direct/clear path through, I hope they are resigned to quite a bit of breakage in the duty free...

[RingwaySam]

Apparently the flight from DXB was diverted yesterday on route due to engine problems? Islamabad diversion? That is what was being said in the terminal but not sure what actually happened.

Emirates 17D arrived from Istanbul this morning, so possibly Istanbul instead of Islamabad.

[Skipness One Echo]

VS have decided to park remote as it is cheaper than getting a stand on the terminal before 12. 78 always goes remote as it positions to LGW from MAN. Average time til last pax off from on blocks is around 40 mins, unless people start complaining it will remain so.

Yeah I saw that last week with the B747-400 bussing from away down the end of Terminal 2! Beggars belief that they won't pay for an airbridge, wouldn't imagine this happening at Gatwick.....

[GavinC]

cheers for the info Dan.

Also, Crains business magazine is reporting the airport in talks with Air China, Malaysia and Thai.

[Suzeman]

Apparently the flight from DXB was diverted yesterday on route due to engine problems? Islamabad diversion? That is what was being said in the terminal but not sure what actually happened.
Emirates 17D arrived from Istanbul this morning, so possibly Istanbul instead of Islamabad.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4122713)

Anyone with a knowledge of world geography would know that ISB is nowhere near the tracks flights usually take from DXB to MAN being North East of Dubai while the MAN flight would fly NW over Iran or Saudi :ugh:.

On the other hand you sometimes overfly IST on this flight which would make sense as a diversion point.

Suzeman

IST is

[FlyZB]

The 'designated' walk through the new Biza duty free shop is delibrate and it will stay like that permanently. Clearly a lot of negative comments on here but quite simply it does the job it was intended to do. It makes people spend money! Many a time I have seen passengers walking in front of me who have had their attention caught by a special offer, one-off promotion and the like and diverted towards the cash till! It's the same scenario with those awful games machines. They too bring in loads of revenue for the airport because people use them very frequently. The airport is quite obviously manipulating passengers but if people are stupid enough to fall for it, then it will continue. The narrow and poorly signed route to the gate will become much wider and better signposted once the airside refit is complete. But yes, you will still have to walk through it I'm afraid.

With regards to a previous question about restaurants, I'm not entirely sure what is planned but I can say for definate that there will be new food outlets once the whole scheme is finished next Spring. Giraffe, Bar MCR and the Real Food Co on the new upper level have started to get extrmely busy at peak times so catering expansion is top priority. There has been talk of putting a new restaurant similar to the Lancaster in the old Apron Control Tower with lift access from the departure lounge but whether anything has come to fruitation I'm not sure. The plans for the remodelled airside facilty change weekly and no-one seems to be able to keep up. One piece of good news though, I can tell you for definate that the WHSmith and Alpha units by the windows will be removed and there will be a view across the apron again :)

[CorkEICK]

What food outlets are available in the public areas of Terminal 1 now that the Lancaster, Garfunkles and the other food outlets have dissappeared. Will they be returning after refurbishment?

[wnjmurphy]

As it stands, the pasty van outside, and Burger King inside Terminal 1 arrivals. Personally I like the pasty van, although the hot breakfast sandwiches from the Spar in T3 mean I don't make the trek too often! :}

Where the restaraunts were, is now airside, and a portion will form Terminal 3's extended security area.

[G-STAW]

Apparently the flight from DXB was diverted yesterday on route due to engine problems? Islamabad diversion? That is what was being said in the terminal but not sure what actually happened.
Emirates 17D arrived from Istanbul this morning, so possibly Istanbul instead of Islamabad.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4122713) Anyone with a knowledge of world geography would know that ISB is nowhere near the tracks flights usually take from DXB to MAN being North East of Dubai while the MAN flight would fly NW over Iran or Saudi :ugh:.

On the other hand you sometimes overfly IST on this flight which would make sense as a diversion point.

Suzeman

IST is



took the words right out of my mouth......

[brian_dromey]

It makes people spend money! Many a time I have seen passengers walking in front of me who have had their attention caught by a special offer, one-off promotion and the like and diverted towards the cash till! It's the same scenario with those awful games machines. They too bring in loads of revenue for the airport because people use them very frequently. The airport is quite obviously manipulating passengers but if people are stupid enough to fall for it, then it will continue. The narrow and poorly signed route to the gate will become much wider and better signposted once the airside refit is complete. But yes, you will still have to walk through it I'm afraid.

I think a lot of posters are not reflective of the real world, where people could not care less about the views of the aircraft. I know they hate to be bored and moan if there are no shops or eating facilities. This is one of my pet hates in T3. If the flight is delayed and you are airside there is nowhere decent to get food, etc. I would rather have the facilities and not use them most of the time than not have them and be stuck.

Also these retail outlets pump up revenues so the cheap flights we have come to expect may continue into the future. Raising revenue from sources other than airlines allows the airport to charge the airlines less, which makes routes more attractive, yet they can continue to invest in infrastructure required. This is turn means more aircraft, from more carriers for the likes of us to spot.

Someone has to pay for the running of the airport. The airlines have made it quite clear that their customers are not willing to pay over the odds for their tickets. What the airports have discovered is that customers are willing to spend once they are IN the airport.

Its not rocket science!

[stuart212]

Any ideas what this was doing in MAN yday?

[MAN777]

Stuart 212

I presume you dont follow football ?

The Corsair 747 was one of many football charters taking MUFC fans to Moscow.

UTD beat Chelsea on penalties

Fans have been arriving back since the early hours.

[Ian Brooks]

Not such early hours nearly all flights very late, but that is another story from what I have been told chaos in Moscow!

Ian

[Vuelo]

The result in Mocow will hopefully spur Air Asia into choosing Mancheter for their UK base.

[Shyted]

Vuelo,

You would definately think so, but all indications point to STN as a UK destination. The question on my lips and everybody elses for that matter is why?
The boss (Fernandes) is a big MUFC fan,they have acft painted in MUFC colours, most Malaysians support MUFC.I am also led to believe that the biggest MUFC sovenier shop is in KL.

Whats yours and eveybody elses feeling on this this......

Shyted

[wnjmurphy]

"Not such early hours nearly all flights very late, but that is another story from what I have been told chaos in Moscow!"

Passengers I talked to today suggested that fans travelling back to the UK came back on any flight that was going at the time and not the flights they were booked on and in some cases, regardless of what airport in the UK they wanted to travel to.

[G-STAW]

yep, absolute choas in moscow, the airport in exercising a bus type service, pax are put on any plane and shipped out of the city back to MAN.

Its been quite a smooth operation here today, not that much conjestion really, the bus drivers have been very busy for obvious reasons.......

some nice movements today though, makes a change from the usual....


G-STAW.

[spaul66]

Went through t1 two weeks ago then back through yeterday all looking good could not get over how big the duty free shop is only moan i do have is lack of seating in the upstairs cafe area and the the lack of seating in the main lounge also when we went was during the hot weather and boy was it hot in the terminal was ok down by the gates as the air con was on but nothing in the main area although still a lot of areas closed looking good

[eggc]

Congrats - you have won this weeks longest sentance award :}

[UnderASouthernSky]

I think I can break his record when I say that I flew through T1 last weekend for the first time in quite some time and was suprised with how modern and efficient the new security area seemed especially with the increase in screening channels but it really was a disappointment to be routed through the Duty Free with no obvious route through without walking into a dispaly or being sprayed by a perfume girl and arriving back into T1 was also a shame as far as Duty Free shopping goes although the shop was much smaller and quicker to get through and I can't remember being through immigration so quickly - the officers almost outnumbered the pax and were positively polite for a change: do I win?

[Suzeman]

do I win?

No - although this was a longer sentence, unfortunately you used some punctuation towards the end and capital letters in the relevant places throughout. :}

Must try harder.

Suzeman

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I don't know if it's been mentioned previous, But I have read in TTG recently about EL AL and a possible return this autumn???

The article 'briefly' said that EL AL were interested, And activeley applying to serve TEL again???:confused:

[Ex Cargo Clown]

"Not such early hours nearly all flights very late, but that is another story from what I have been told chaos in Moscow!"

Passengers I talked to today suggested that fans travelling back to the UK came back on any flight that was going at the time and not the flights they were booked on and in some cases, regardless of what airport in the UK they wanted to travel to.

Yep, that's what happened. Pax were dealt with on a "first come, first served" basis, and just bussed to flights until they were full !!!

Fortunately, we went independently.

MAN-AMS-TLL-RIX-LED-DME-VNO-RIX-TLL-AMS-MAN !!!!!

And for all the people having a go at the facilities, they want to try flying to a Russian airport !!!! two hours to get through emmigration, on the way OUT of Russia !!! No facilities airside whatsover, three security checks, only two gates at all airports with a nice long bus ride to the aircraft. And all that is without going into the domestic flights we took !!!!! :sad::sad:

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Hey, Ex Cargo Clown, maybe better off with Jet2 after all:}

How's the court case progresssing:rolleyes:

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Now Now Johnny.

I've had far more important things to deal with than that shower of b@stards.

I can now concentrate on it, I'd better be quick though, before they (hopefully) go out of business.

[Ringway747]

Manchester Airport has been ordered to pay substantial damages to an NUJ member following an employment tribunal ruling that sharply criticised senior managers at the airport.
The tribunal found that communications manager Jennifer Walley had been unfairly dismissed and ordered the airport to pay more than £25,000 in compensation.
Senior managers at Manchester Airport came in for tough criticism for their roles in the case, which related to unsubstantiated allegation of leaking information to the press. The tribunal in Manchester found defects in the company’s investigation and disciplinary hearing and said that a subsequent appeal process was “flawed”.
Jennifer was originally suspended from her job managing the airport’s press office in May 2006 after she submitted alternative proposals to a planned restructuring on behalf of the communications team. When Jennifer’s suspension was reported in the Manchester Evening News and Blackpool Gazette, further allegations were introduced to the disciplinary process alleging that Jennifer was the source for these stories, an allegation that was not upheld.
Jennifer was dismissed in September 2006 in a process that has now been found to be unfair.
The tribunal found that:
the airport’s Head of Risk Assurance Chris Humm, who conducted the investigation into the allegations, effectively “shifted the goalposts” during his investigation into allegations against Jennifer;
Mr Humm “patently misled” Jennifer when he telephoned her the day before an interview to say there were no new issues to be raised;
management failed to provide Jennifer with written notification of new allegations being made against her, in direct contravention of the company’s disciplinary procedure;
Steve Warrener, Manchester Airport’s Finance Director, was “wholly unrealistic” in some of the demands he placed upon Jennifer and “chose to disregard” confirmation from the newspapers involved that Jennifer wasn’t the source for their stories;
the reason for Jennifer’s dismissal was connected with her membership of the NUJ.
Responding to the tribunal’s judgement, both Jennifer and NUJ General Secretary Jeremy Dear called on the airport’s owners – Manchester City Council and the nine other local authorities in Greater Manchester – to examine the tribunal’s criticisms and demand answers from the airport management.
After the Tribunal’s findings were announced, Jennifer Walley said:
“I believe my case raises serious questions about the senior management operation at Manchester Airport and it is important these are addressed. The tribunal’s findings speak for themselves.
“I hope that the tribunal’s criticisms of the directors involved will encourage the owners of the airport to properly examine their conduct and behaviour.”
“I would like to pay tribute to my former airport press office colleagues who gave evidence at the hearing. I will always be grateful to them for the courage they have shown.”
Jeremy Dear added: “Jen has shown she is courageous, committed to the pursuit of the truth and principled throughout this long ordeal. She has exposed the failings and falsehoods of those who sought to tarnish her reputation. She richly deserves this significant victory.”
The Tribunal awarded a basic award of £4,200 plus £13,577 compensation and £8,000 for injury to feelings.

19 May 2008

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

M.E.N. website reports that MAplc is interested in bidding for Belfast City (George Best) Airport which is being put up for sale by Ferrovial.

[mickyman]

Ringway747

Not a bad return for the management either
getting rid of someone for £25,000.

What salary was she on when the allegations
were first made?

Perhaps they took the cheaper option?

MM

[One Sixty until 4.]

Despite the lack of progress in pax flights to MAN, cargo continues to thrive. It is being reported in a couple of trade sites that Jade Cargo will start flights from Shenzhen to MAN via BUD in June. Seems they have resolved flight crew shortages, including the recent take on of ex-Oasis pilots.

Expected to be twice a week. Is there anyone in the know who can confirm start date, the days and times?

Wonder if we are approaching overkill to China with Air China, Great Wall Airlines and now Jade - not to mention Cathay and their shuttles to HKG. Can MAN sustain all these operators?

And if they can, why no Korean or Japanese yet? C'mon MAN pull your fingers out!

;)

[virgin_cc_wannabe]

JAL are happy at heathow for the moment, and Korean must be happy transiting cargo on their pax flights to heathrow also.

Only time will tell if the cargo bubble can be sustained at man, and dont forget CX are now down to 9 weekly with the consolidation of the dragonair flights

[Ian Brooks]

That is due to an aircraft shortage with B747 200 being withdrawn and a lack of 400s converted

Ian

[superspotter]

Jade's crew "shortage" has been filled not by ex Oasis crew but by the fact that they have taken on, on contract, Air Atlanta '400 pilots/FO's.

[spannersatcx]

CA are looking at cancelling all flts in July/Aug due spiralling fuel costs. CX(KA) are down to 7 or 8, that may drop further, a lot of freight on CX goes to Korea/Japan already. Maybe the bubble has burst:sad:

[AircraftOperations]

Remember that just because an aircraft lands at MAN, it doesn't mean the cargo is destined for the local area. Due to lack of slots/space at southern airports, there is no doubt that some of these cargo airlines are carrying cargo that is meant for other areas of the UK. MAN is 5 hours drive from most major places in the UK so as long as there is a requirement for airfreight into the UK from various Asian cities, MAN could well keep these flights.

Korean, Asiana and JAL all operate freighters to London so they are unlikely to need to send freighters into MAN as well.

[newscaster]

PIA will reroute two of their JFK services via Dubai soon doing away with MAN, reason being cheaper fuel at DXB and no UK transit visa hassles due to passenger complaints.

[MUFC_fan]

Is this a real loss to MAN apart from the fuellers and handlers?

Don't know the freedom rights PK have? Could anybody enlighten us?

[BKS Air Transport]

Newscaster says on Leeds thread two ISB's going to Leeds. Is this connected?

[Ringwayman]

PK were limited to something like 5 5th freedom services a week - there was no restriction on how they used them. JFK used to only have 3 of the 5 5th freedom routes.

Any LBA run is probably due to the fact there is a bit of a market out of that side of the Pennines to Pakistan.

[airhumberside]

PIA will still have MAN terminators wont they?

[flybar]

The LBA flights are to replace Shaheen Air who have proved that there is a market - Last Shaheen flight to LBA is on Sunday

[Bagso]

"Remember that just because an aircraft lands at MAN, it doesn't mean the cargo is destined for the local area."

In response.....

"Remember that just because an aircraft lands at Heathrow, it doesn't mean the passegers are destined for the local area....."

touche !:ugh:

[Ringway747]

Mickyman

I'm not sure what her salary was but I think you're missing the point.

£25K is a drop in the ocean - what these senior managers did at Manchester Airport was actually against the law.

Look at the true cost - they were trying to defend the indefensible at any cost.

Their QC at tribunal cost in the region of £50K, they've been represented a by top class legal team based in London - estimated cost £50K with all their expenses.

Then there's all the cases before this case where the airport settled out of court and made the employees sign compromise agreements - effectively gagging them from discussing anything. This is rumoured to have cost £50K in most cases - that's another £200K !!! then add the amount awarded by Manchester Tribunal.

This is fast approaching £500,000 - down to bad management.

You see where I'm going - this is my council tax.

Someone needs to ask some serious questions - fast.

[G-STAW]

PIA will reroute two of their JFK services via Dubai soon doing away with MAN, reason being cheaper fuel at DXB and no UK transit visa hassles due to passenger complaints.



that'l be a great loss for servisair especially, although we are getting thomas cook.

Looks like we'r seeing the affect of crap managment of the last few years starting to take affect, its a real shame for the great people who work at the airport. Management needs to starting pulling something out of the bag, hopefully contracts....

G-STAW

[MUFC_fan]

Getting TCX, one of the biggest carriers at the airport is quite a big contract!

A320s, A321s, B757s, B767s and A330s is quite a good range and will make all workers days different from Monday to Sunday.

[Budfrey27]

...i do believe that FR will be starting a Brussels Charleroi service this autumn!!!!!
cheers
Bud

[DeltaIndiaSierraPapa]

although we are getting thomas cook.

When did THAT get announced G-STAW? Or have you just let the cat out of the bag. As of yesterday it was my understanding that Menzies still had that contract. It's a pretty big deal if you are speaking out of turn!

[TechProblem]

Menzies have only just started the contract, although they have taken on far to muc, including aer lingus, they haven't even been givien 6 months.

So to move to SA so soon is just silly :ugh:

[ManofMan]

Just arrived back at Man after taking two of the worst experiences I have ever had through an airport in my long and travelled career.

Having always been a lover of Manchester (being my local and all that) I have always put poor service down to the exception rather than the norm.....but after my lat two flights from and to Manchester I really feel the need to vent my frustration......

From the top....... Last Saturday (24th May) arrive at terminal 2 to check in for my flight to Qatar onboard with QR, after checking in I waved goodbye to the family and headed for security, I joined the mass exodus for the school holiday, 45 minutes later and I could at last see the security staff, another 40 minutes and I was there !!!!, now being a hot day and with lots and lots of kids etc the aircon non existent, the place was so hot, people loosing their temper, the place stank like nothing I have ever smelt.

Having gotten through the security checks I exited into the shopping area to be confronted with what looked like a poll tax demo from the 90's, the noise was horrendous, people just stroon all over, taking advantage of any floor space available.....my gate resembled a bar in down town Ibiza, the toilets were in such a state that they were unusable, no toilet roll in any of the cubicles (trust me on this one!!!!), after using the Daily Star for what it should be used for I decided that I would collect some light reading material for my flight....how wrong I was, the queue for Smiths was snaking round the shop and out the door, down past the next shop and back in.....I witnessed at least two or three people take advantage of this by joining the back of the queue for about 10 seconds before deciding that they would pay "another" time for the goods they took.....the poor 17 year old lad who had been empowered to marshal the mass hysteria they call a queue simply gave up, and I for one didn’t blame him. (On a slightly different note....do any Liverpudlians actually use Liverpool ????, it seemed like most of Liverpool had descended on T2 ??)

When it came to boarding the lovely lady whispered to everyone that the flight was ready for boarding, the announcement was so quiet that the people who were situated three gates away ours was full of shell suit toting people heading for Sanford, the word eh eh eh were in a plenty.

We eventually left gate 1 hour late and as a result I missed my connection in DOH (to SHA), The QR flight was say 90% full with a very busy front section !!. Now I know people are going to say that I am picking on a busy time etc etc, but arriving in Doha at 00:35 (the busiest time) I had a flawless transfer and was loaded onboard the next flight to HKG some 35 minutes later for a connection to SHA with KA. What I am trying to say is.....why can other airports cope at busy time but Manchester just falls apart at the seems ??

Just for the record the service on QR was good to Very good......

lots of hassle free travelling around China followed with nothing even remotely witnessed like at MAN.....arriving in SHA, we arrived at the same time as 2 x KLM 747's, 1 x QF A330 and a LH A340......even so I was through customs had my baggage and was met a little of 20 minutes later....

Coming back to MAN we arrived early at 07:10 into T2....arrived on gate and waited....and waited...and waited, to be told by the crew that due a lack of ground handling agents the doors could not be opened. After a short wait (20 minutes on gate) the doors finally opened, as you can image, you now had some seriously pi:mad:ed off people entering the terminal area....to join a queue of say 3000 people waiting for immigration clearance we joined the back of the queue and waited...and waited and waited....one comfort was that a rather nice gentlemen advised that the delay was due to stricter security measures that had been introduced ( can someone please close that stable door ??? the horse seems to have bolted), every time another flight arrived people just joined the queue at any given point, this was starting to annoy some very tired people and the chance of a full scale riot was in the offing, but to their credit the ground handling staff (OCS I think) managed to laugh and joke with themselves throughout the situation.

The nice gentlemen again came over the tannoy to advise they were sorry for the delay but they had the maximum number of staff working possible and would get us through asap.

Some 1 hrs 45 minutes later I arrived at the immigration desks, which were indeed fully staffed (if you count 6 out of 12 positions as fully staffed), through I went to find out that the Doha baggage was on carousel number 2, along with the Malaga baggage that was till on there from 0650 Hrs as people were still clearing customs, so flights full of people fighting for bags......to cut a long story short I eventually left the baggage area with minor cuts and bruises but in the whole I think our Doha massive fought off the Malaga crew....but we paid the price, whilst we were doing battle, the crafty Sanford select has used the mayhem to take all the baggage trolleys.

From flight landing to getting in my waiting lift.....2 hours 40 minutes!!!!!

Be ashamed terminal 2....very ashamed....in all aspects.

[ConstantFlyer]

ManofMan - I sympathise with your bad experiences. I can assure you that you are not alone. I do wonder whether any of the managers responsible for the various service areas in which you encountered problems have recently travelled to any other airport to see how things are done there.

[Latic]

There does seem to be a big difference between T1 and T2. Flew to FRA through T1 last week. My wait at check in was zero, my wait at security was zero. Coming back I was through passport control in 10 mins, and the bags were just as quick.
Maybe the changes to T2 can't come too soon

[G-STAW]

When did THAT get announced G-STAW? Or have you just let the cat out of the bag. As of yesterday it was my understanding that Menzies still had that contract. It's a pretty big deal if you are speaking out of turn!



not been annouced, but (and its a big but) one of the managers almost confirmed this to me. Menzies have just been given another 30 days notice to get it right, secondly we are training up alot of new starters for the ramp, over 40 over the last few months. Personally i think we'll struggle to handle Thomas Cook, we havent got enough equipment! although we have taken delivery of some brand new stuff this week.

anyway time will tell.....



Menzies have only just started the contract, although they have taken on far to muc, including aer lingus, they haven't even been givien 6 months.

So to move to SA so soon is just silly :ugh:



your correct, like said above they've been given a another 30 days notice to sort things out, they was a mess last month, personally i like Menzies, i think they have a good operation, it just need tweeking......

G-SWA

[Mr A Tis]

My last T2 experience, some months ago, was also mayhem with chaos airside with queues & nowhere to sit & worst of all, no toilets remotely anywhere near clean,with queues for the Gents as bad as the Ladies.
T1 experience last month, vastly improved, although having to taxy back onto stand as the agents had "forgot" to offload cargo from the previous flight kind of makes you wonder how many cock ups get through without being noticed:\

[321go]

Terminal one is no better I assure you. I returned on Saturday from Frankfurt. I travelled out last week (Business Class) and what a disaster. Firstly, the Lufthansa Check in has moved down stairs from level 5 to the the Jet 2 area (no signs). Of course Escalator and lift not working - Chaos lugging bags down the stairs with no one knowing where to go. Not enough space at the new check in - the queue (Lufthansa scheduled flight) going back up the stairs!!. Baggage system broke down. After check in troll back up the stairs to the new security system.Chaos again...Being business class you get a pass at check in for the fast lane (this is what you pay extra for - speed). Guess what "Sorry Sir the fast lane is closed" - join the queue with everyone else. 20 minutes later I'm in the new departure lounge - stopped by countless people asking where the gates are??? Its a big shop with no way out except some small doors at the end which you cant see when you enter the area. No one in there buying anything but plenty of people getting lost. Manchester has got it wrong - Badly wrong!.On my return the queues through immigration were crazy.Traffic down yet the airport experience is getting worse.I now know why traffic is down - passengers just dont need the hassle at Manchester.Have the people running the airport and designing such concepts got any airport and customer service back ground - I think not?.

[MAN777]

Is anyone in MAG management reading this ? and if so what do you have to say about it ?

I have always been a MAN loyalist and it saddens me to hear of the hassle that passengers are having, MAG please comment.

[A330ETOPS]

I totally agree with you. I have been loyal to MAN since i was a little lad, and it's just not looking to brilliant at the minute. Fair play to MAG, as the airport is keeping up its appearence & hardly anywhere now looks outdated (compared to lgw/lhr), but certainly immegration/security/check-in is a nightmare. I pass through the airport most days being crew, and everytime there's miles & miles of queuing. Even flight/cabin crew are having to queue longer & longer to pass through security, which is having adverse effects on slot times etc. We've also been seeing a large increase of late pax, due to poor signage in some areas of T2 & massive queues,delaying our departures.

[MUFC_fan]

Having taken in the posts above, could anybody tell me what is to happen at MAN in the long long term - i.e) new terminals etc. and if their are any links?

Cheers.

Also, I am flying out of the airport 3 weeks today and hope T2 is ok!

[A330ETOPS]

Demolition of older buildings, such as old storage buildings, to the east of Terminal 3 has already begun. This is to make way for a new apron and taxiway towards runway 23R/05L, and an eastwards extension of Terminal 3, which is planned to provide an extra fifteen covered stands. A full length parallel taxiway may also be added to the second runway and more crossing points added across the first runway to improve ground movements of aircraft. Passenger flow on Terminal 1's gating piers is due to be realigned, with plans to redesign the piers such that departures and arrivals do not contraflow on the same level, allowing for larger seating areas at the gates, express retail outlets and a dedicated lounge and gating area for future Airbus A380 flights. Terminal 2 is due to receive a major extension, to encompass current remote stands to the west. Up to an extra eight covered stands will be made available by this. An airside link for transferring passengers between Terminals 1 & 2 is at the planning stage, designed in an effort to boost Manchester's chances of becoming a major hub airport. There is uncertainty as to whether this link should provide extra stands for the two terminals, or merely exist as a transfer corridor.

As you know, all existing terminals are undergoing a retail and airport security refurbishment programme, with Terminals 1 and 3 due to be complete by spring 2009, and Terminal 2 by autumn 2009. The security control areas are undergoing upgrades of new X-ray machines and passenger authenticity control systems, which will ensure a higher and faster passenger throughput, whilst improving the already elevated levels of security at the airport. The new security control areas are due to be complete and in use by late April 2008 in Terminal 1 and early July 2008 in Terminal 2.

The current fire station on the north of the airfield is becoming outdated and expensive to maintain and is also in the way of future apron and taxiway developments, so it is also stated that this may be demolished and a new facility built close to the original fire station site. A third runway and a Terminal 4 or satellite terminal may also be developed, however any such expansion would be subject to major public inquiry, and neither is currently accounted for in the airport's plans to 2015.

The taxiways are undergoing a phased renewal programme. Work on taxiway Alpha has recently been completed, and runway crossing point Delta Zulu is being resurfaced. The 'South Bay' stands at the end of B Pier recently closed to make way for a realigning of part of taxiway Juliet to allow the accommodation of the A380. The work also fits in with the airfields future taxiway strategy. :ok:

[MUFC_fan]

So MAN is in for a lot of redevelopement!

Thanks for the info A330ETOPS!:ok:

[A330ETOPS]

Anybody have any further info on the extra service for EK? Is it happening? Isn't it happening? Also if it is, what a/c are we expecting to see? A330ETOPS

[MidnightMoonlight]

yes you are right noone from liverpool uses LPL i know every allways flys from manc.

but why do people slag MAN off none stop?? i mean they may have some probs but imn sure its getting sorted its no worse than LHR ETC
i fly MAN every year and have no problems whatso ever niether do people i know.
flew to america last year and nothing wrong left bang on time,easy.why the fuss its a major int airport handling over 22m passengers theres going to be some queues.

[Suzeman]

A330 ETOPS

Lots of interesting plans there and as you say some are already under way. But where will the money come from, especially for the longer term projects, with a stagnant/ declining demand? Whether you like it or not, no-one builds ahead of demand nowadays.Sweating the assets means more profit but look what happens to service standards. In addition MAG look like they will be spending money on the acquisition trail with BHD and LGW appearing to be in their sights

Several different T2 extensions have been planned over the years and nothing has happened yet. Same with the T1-T2 link which was originally proposed when T2 opened but was dropped in the value engineering (= cost cutting) exercise at the time.

And a full length parallel taxiway for 23L/05R would I think trigger off a major planning inquiry as the Bollin Tunnel would need to be extended. As for a third runway - well dream on. In the current and forseeable climate no need.

And can you please let me know what you mean by the "original Fire Station site" as I think the current one N side near Ocean Sky has been there since the mid 1960s?

Suzeman

[FlyZB]

I believe that one of the biggest problems is that the airport authority don't get involved in areas that aren't run by themselves. Security is an MAG issue but the majority of other complaints mentioned above are not. Immigration is manned by their own staff. Poor staffing levels resulting in only half the desks being opened is not an MAG issue. Cleaning is managed by Initial. Unclean toilets and dirty terminal building are their responsibility. Check-in and gate staff are managed by handling agents. Not having anyone to meet an aircraft on time is the responsibility of the individual handling agent. Long waits for baggage are also down to the handling agents and airlines. So ultimately, all these individual organisations have the responsibility to provide a high level of service. The problem being that 99% of people travelling through the airport don't understand this so of course passengers are automatically going to put blame on the airport itself. MAG needs to monitor service levels of the individual providers and if they're falling short of providing the high levels required, then there should be procedures to deal with this. That is not happening at the moment because the airport see it as 'unethical' to tread on the toes of the service providers and tell them how to do their job. The only acception being if the level of service is consistantly poor and even then, MAG are not in a position to take over and make improvements themselves.

Sounds like T2 is a bit of a nightmare at the minute and the building work (which should have been complete mid May) clearly isn't helping. I've moved over to T1 now and I have to say that it's a lot better. Maximum queue time for security in May was 12 minutes and the average queue time for immigration was 9 minutes. Not bad going really. Yes, the whole design of the airside facility is not ideal right now. But give it chance. There is still major construction work going on across all 3 terminals and this will continue until next March. How about people have some patience and judge it when everything has been completed, not before.

[WincoDinco]

Demolition of older buildings, such as old storage buildings, to the east of Terminal 3 has already begun. This is to make way for a new apron and taxiway towards runway 23R/05L, and an eastwards extension of Terminal 3, which is planned to provide an extra fifteen covered stands. A full length parallel taxiway may also be added to the second runway and more crossing points added across the first runway to improve ground movements of aircraft. Passenger flow on Terminal 1's gating piers is due to be realigned, with plans to redesign the piers such that departures and arrivals do not contraflow on the same level, allowing for larger seating areas at the gates, express retail outlets and a dedicated lounge and gating area for future Airbus A380 flights. Terminal 2 is due to receive a major extension, to encompass current remote stands to the west. Up to an extra eight covered stands will be made available by this. An airside link for transferring passengers between Terminals 1 & 2 is at the planning stage, designed in an effort to boost Manchester's chances of becoming a major hub airport. There is uncertainty as to whether this link should provide extra stands for the two terminals, or merely exist as a transfer corridor.

As you know, all existing terminals are undergoing a retail and airport security refurbishment programme, with Terminals 1 and 3 due to be complete by spring 2009, and Terminal 2 by autumn 2009. The security control areas are undergoing upgrades of new X-ray machines and passenger authenticity control systems, which will ensure a higher and faster passenger throughput, whilst improving the already elevated levels of security at the airport. The new security control areas are due to be complete and in use by late April 2008 in Terminal 1 and early July 2008 in Terminal 2.

The current fire station on the north of the airfield is becoming outdated and expensive to maintain and is also in the way of future apron and taxiway developments, so it is also stated that this may be demolished and a new facility built close to the original fire station site. A third runway and a Terminal 4 or satellite terminal may also be developed, however any such expansion would be subject to major public inquiry, and neither is currently accounted for in the airport's plans to 2015.

The taxiways are undergoing a phased renewal programme. Work on taxiway Alpha has recently been completed, and runway crossing point Delta Zulu is being resurfaced. The 'South Bay' stands at the end of B Pier recently closed to make way for a realigning of part of taxiway Juliet to allow the accommodation of the A380. The work also fits in with the airfields future taxiway strategy. :ok:

Great copy and paste from Wikipedia, A330. :hmm:

[Bucephalus]

I believe the reason no one flies from liverpool (altho 5.5 million do) is that all the tour operators have reduced their programmes so much that there is no longer a choice to fly from your local airport anymore:}

[Momentary Lapse]

FlyZB:

Yes, but as MAG owns the brand that is Manchester Airport, it has a duty to protect that brand, and the service levels to its customers. I believe it has various user groups and performance review meetings with the service partners to ensure that stakeholders' performance and plans are aligned with MAG's plans. It also has a Director of Customer Services, and a huge team below him, to ensure they get it right.

I believe the problem is due to MAG driving down its own costs and increasing its income to free up cash to reduce charges to attract airlines (which only worked for a short time anyway). This has resulted in the service partners also having to reduce their costs to stay afloat (e.g. Initial) and the retailers having to increase their concession fees and rents to stay in the game. For both groups, their main cost that is adjustable, in a labour-driven service industry, is wages, which are far lower in real terms than they used to be. Coupled with staff car parks being further away and too small, and alternative employment easier to find (Trafford Centre, Wythenshawe office developments, Sharston, Trafford Park, Warrington etc.) then it's inevitable that the workers that keep it going (shop staff, cleaners, baggage handlers etc.) will walk, and service levels will collapse.

Management have been told numerous times this would happen. They haven't listened. It's Thatcher in 1990, and Blair/Brown in 2008, all over again - the ruling class losing touch with what the people are doing.

[FlyZB]

Well this can certainly been seen with Initial, the cleaning budget was reduced and I guess as a result the level of cleanliness around the airport has vastly gone downhill. However, Initial insisted that they could cope with the reduced budget but quite obviously they can't. On more occasions than not the cleaning standard set by MAG itself is not achieved but the problem is that nobody seems to pull Initial up on the matter. Perhaps they feel embarrased by the fact that the budget was reduced but they still expect the same high standards? This is what I mean though. Despite the fact that there are user groups and feedback meetings, MAG doesn't get involved enough in matters relating to the individual organisations that make up the airport. Unfair to simply target Initial, there are numerous handling agents that simply cannot deliver what they've promised. Promised to the airlines & promised to the airport. Who consistantly cannot cope with their check-in queues, don't have enough staff to offload baggage promptly & cannot provide a quality level of service to their airline customers. All this looks bad for Manchester. So why aren't MAG coming down harder on these companies? They need to get more involved. Perhaps the deminishing level of service by handling agents etc is a result of MAG reducing costs but service providers shouldn't promise high levels of service if they can't deliver. If they had MAG management coming down hard on them then maybe they would make more effort to provide the service that they promised or better still, admit that they can't deliver the levels required and offer the contract (whatever it may be) to someone who can.

Ultimately, there is a definate blame culture between the different companies that doesn't help matters. If baggage has taken a long time to be offloaded from a flight, MA heap blame on the individual handling agent or airline. If a passenger complains about the state of the terminal/toilets to an airline employee, they palm it off as the responsibility of MA. Perhaps it's time that everyone helped each other out and worked together to ensure that all aspects of service level being provided to the users of MAN are raised as high as possible and kept there.

[Suzeman]

It's very sad if the Airport either does not have the power or the inclination to penalise these service partners when they underperform. If there isn't something in the services providers' contracts/ agreements with the airport, then there jolly well should be. These organisations have been given the right to do business on the airport; they should put up or be kicked where it hurts - in the pocket. BAA Airports get financially penalised if they don't perform, so why shouldn't a similar system be devised for service providers?

The Airport should be a run as a team effort and it is a shame, but perhaps inevitable in this age, to read of the blame culture. But at the end of the day, most punters don't care two hoots who is to blame - it is the Airport's brand that will suffer and the pax will look elsewhere if they can. And I thought in this day and age, brand was everything? Surely the airport should be taking steps to protect it before it is irretrievably tainted?

But then what of other airports? Even if another airport has the flights you want will you get better levels of service? Maybe not. So is it a case that some of the older ones amongst us remember when UK airports levels of customer service were generally much higher, whilst the current generation are used to what we get now and don't see anything wrong? A nice exam question perhaps?

Suzeman

PS :ok: Well spotted Winco Dinco on A330 ETOPS cut and paste from Wikithingamigig. I thought some of it sounded strange - now I know why !!

[A330ETOPS]

And your point being? Does it really matter where i get information from? Just trying to pass on information to people. That's why we're here isn't it?

[Suzeman]

A330 ETOPS

Wikipedia styles itself as the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Although they try to sift inappropriate and incorrect information out and people are asked to supply reference material for what they have posted, inaccurate information can be posted or it may not be up to date. If you look at the recent history of the Manchester Airport pages, they have had 50+ edits in the last week from around 20 different contributors.

So sometimes it is difficult to believe all you read there as information does not necessarily come from official or correct sources. And there have been incidents where people have posted incorrect information on other subjects deliberately to cause trouble. So you have to take it with a pinch of salt.

And when you post it on here it would have been nice to quote your source for the information.

Mind you, this is a rumour network .... :}

Suzeman


.

[MUFC_fan]

A330ETOPS,

Thanks for the reply. Got what I asked for and not really bothered where it came from!

On the EK note would be very surprised to see an A330 back at MAN soon as the UK is mainly only seeing US birds (LGW, NCL and BHX having an airbus each) and personally if I was to fly with them from MAN and had to choose between the airbus and the 77W I would avoid the bus like the plague! The is simply no comparison!

I fly with them next month and was planning to go from BHX as it was quite abit cheaper but saw that the evening flight was the Airbus and instead got on the afternoon EK flight from MAN!

Don't think an A330 would last at MAN now that the northerners have tasted the beast! ;)

[pwalhx]

MUFC Fan whilst noting your comments, It is most probably if the 3rd flight does start it will be with the Airbus. (Work wise doesnt worry me cargo never complains about aircraft type). Also its a matter of personal taste, I like the Airbus so am happy to fly on it. However I agree if your saying EK's airbus service isnt up to scratch nowadays. I prefer to use QR than EK and their service on the A330 is excellent.

Can I also defend Manchester a little, as regular user maybe 30-40 times a year, sure there have been times when its been busy, queues at security and/or luggage and I dont claim its as clean or efficient as we all would like it to be, however the vast majority of the time I have had no trouble. Of the posters who have complained of problems, are you referring to a one off event or several similar events. Dont shout me down for this question, I am merely trying to find out if I am lucky or maybe you are letting a single event cloud your views, remember we never remember the 99 times things are right but we certainly remember the one time its wrong.

Also we need to put it into context with other airports both in the UK and Europe and to me its no better or worse than most.

[A330ETOPS]

Haha absolutely. Glad you found the information useful. I've flew EK about 5 times now to Syd/Per out of manchester, but all on the 777. Never flew as a passenger on their A330 yet. I think the IFE/Cabin comfort is excellent, but i dont think the service is a patch on others, such as Singapore. I'd love to fly the 777. Absolute beauty. I'm thinking a few more hours yet haha

[Suzeman]

Thanks for the reply. Got what I asked for and not really bothered where it came from!



Or how accurate it might be ? :)

Suzeman

[mantug01]

In relation to how MAG keep an eye on service levels, there were plans or there is in place a Ground Handling Licence. This is suppost to keep a check on the handling agents to ensure they perform to the correct standards and stop the airport suffering from lack of service from a service provider where they have no control over.

I'm sure this was in place but i may be wrong...things at MAG take forever.

Many service providers would love to work together but many facilities are held back or stopped all together by MAG.

[A330ETOPS]

Suzeman its people like yourself that cause all of the s**t on here. You made your point, now grow up!

[MUFC_fan]

Must say SQ service is absolutely superb! Would advise anybody travelling that way that SQ is DEFINATELY the carrier to fly with. 13 hours goes so quickly on their a/c! 5*.

Don't get me wrong, I love the A330! Second favourite after the 757 but I just prefer the service on the 77Ws. EK service is very good (from my experiences) and I would have to say I look forward to the flights with them, more so than most.

[Scottie Dog]

With all due respect I think that you will find that Suzeman is rather mature - although maybe the approach of his right to a Bus Pass must be causing him some concern!! :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I think that to cut and paste an entire passage from Wikkipedia, without crediting your source, is a clear case of plagiarism. Suzeman comes from a very reliable background of working within the aviation industry (I do not want to divulge his real identity), and it has been my pleasure to have known him in both a professional and personal capacity for a long time. If you were to read the previous posts made by Suzeman you would see that he has an immense amount of knowledge and is not shy of sharing this amongst us.

Whilst appreciating that this country, and it's numerous websites, enjoy a freedom of speech, I do feel that we should all try very hard to refrain from making defamatory remarks about those who we know nothing about.

Now who has heard the rumour about JAL starting a service from Heathrow?? Only a code-share on the BA Shuttle, so don't get too excited (courtesy of airliners.net)

Scottie Dog

ps - with apologies to G-STAW for any previous comments made!!

[commit aviation]

Returning to the topic of service standards I would suggest some of these problems come about as businesses try to retain business.
As customers we love low fares but we still expect high standards.
Airports, airlines & businesses in general are trying to keep costs down so they try to pay the minimum possible to their suppliers. These suppliers want to retain the business and in many cases appear to do so at any cost. However, something will suffer and it's often the service level.
I get the impression that suppliers are starting to realise that they can't remain in business if their balance sheet permanently bleeds red ink and perhaps the desire to survive will see realistic rates being agreed and better service levels attained.
Ultimately however what is viewed as "realistic" depends on which side of the fence you are sitting!!

[greatoaks]

There seems to have been quite a few delays today from Man.
Can anyone advise the causes or is it just coincidence

[mickyman]

A330ETOPS

Its a shame it was a sham from a unreliable
source - but then again this being a rumour
site I suppose we couldnt expect any REAL
imput!

All your posts are now null and void and who
ya'gonna blame big boy?

MM

[Ian Brooks]

A330etops

I think you may find that Suzeman knows just a tad more than you do re MAN
as has been said by chiglet


Ian

[A330ETOPS]

I didn''t say that he never knew more than i did. I guess we all no more about different aspects of the aviation industry! Moving on now, Yeh i noticed the large number of delays aswel today. Certainly Monarch haven't had the best of days, with a number of their Airbus fleet either tech downroute or in the hangar

[Ringwayman]

Cheers Scottie for noticing that a.net post. Can't understand why they now feel the urge for codesharing though, unless other airlines are seeing some throughput to Japan via their hub? If it's Finnair creaming off the traffic, it makes me wonder why JL don't codeshare with them?

[G-STAW]

ps - with apologies to G-STAW for any previous comments made!!



no worries, thankyou.



Must say SQ service is absolutely superb! Would advise anybody travelling that way that SQ is DEFINATELY the carrier to fly with. 13 hours goes so quickly on their a/c! 5*.

Don't get me wrong, I love the A330! Second favourite after the 757 but I just prefer the service on the 77Ws. EK service is very good (from my experiences) and I would have to say I look forward to the flights with them, more so than most.



thats good, im travelling with them sometime in the autumn for £80 RETURN! ahh the perks of the jobs. not to mention NYC with delta for the same amount in december.......

:)

G-STAW

[dh dragon]

Re previous posts extolling the virtues of these aircraft it surely depends on the airline seating config.Whilst I think the 777 is a nice aircraft I would not fly EK again(I have many times in the past) as they have 10 abreast (3-4-3) instead of the 9 abreast which other airlines fly.The A330 meanwhile is a 2-4-2 config and is operated by QR out of MAN and has more preferable seating to EK,s.The service on board is also far better !!

[MANFlyer]

Third Runway ??. Fourth Terminal ????....

Should have known it was from Wikipeda....:ugh:

[Bagso]

Third Runway ??. Fourth Terminal ????....

:D ha ha ha.....

...pity we can't have sound on here, we could have had a burst of
"The laughing Policemen", in the background to accompany this.

[G-STAW]

MAN has got alot of work to before a fourth terminal is even considered,

MAN owns alot of land, its can expand its existing terminals (work commencing) before it even considers T4!

RANT BEGINNING

on the subject of terminals, does anyone think that T2 has got to be the worsed terminal exterior ever designed!, outdated or what! concrete galore.......built in 93', more like 73'!

and then there's the T1 short stay car park.......

RANT ENDING:)

G-STAW

[TURIN]

Here's a good rumour.

Lufthansa to start a JFK from MAN.

Apparently they are a bit p!55ed off at BA for some reason. ;):E

[MUFC_fan]

I am a die hard patriot but if LH were to set up base at MAN on a long haul basis and shove it up BA's a*se then please...be my guest.

Can't see it happening any time soon though.:*

[G-STAW]

Here's a good rumour.

Lufthansa to start a JFK from MAN.

Apparently they are a bit p!55ed off at BA for some reason. ;):E



any source?




G-STAW

[TURIN]

any source?

A friend of someone at Air France via US Air, American Airlines, Delta, Continental and Qatar.

It was a bit sketchy.......:suspect:

[A320fan]

Wouldn't it make more sense for bmi to do it and LH code-share?

[pwalhx]

Do BMI have an aircraft to operate the route?

[Ian Brooks]

Pwalhx
I think not,
I would have thought a LH A330 is perhaps to big unless it starts at
another city in Germany, say perhaps DUS or MUC

Ian

[BDLBOS]

Was it LH who signed a codeshare deal with Jetblue? This would be a nice feed if true.

[MUFC_fan]

I personally think that is the key to a regional UK to major hub which is where Flyglobespan failed on the LPL-JFK route, there wasnt enough demand for just NYC from the Mersey.

Look at CO and EK for example. They are providing flights into major hubs but I would love to know the figure for the number of passengers who actually make this their final destination as I can probably assume not many! CO offers services from smaller airports such as BHX, BFS, BRS, EDI, GLA etc. where there may not be enough demand for just EWR. They do however have connections to various destinations across North and South America from the airport which makes the route viable! Same with EK and DXB - do you really think MAN has that high a demand for DXB - over 900 seats per day?!

By LH signing a contract with Jetblue it gives them the more destinations across the States which will also increase demand for their own flights to reach these destinations! I know it is very simple and has been happening for many years but I still believe it is the best way to fill aircraft and with the current economic climate, will be for some time to come!

[G-STAW]

I personally think that is the key to a regional UK to major hub which is where Flyglobespan failed on the LPL-JFK route, there wasnt enough demand for just NYC from the Mersey.

Look at CO and EK for example. They are providing flights into major hubs but I would love to know the figure for the number of passengers who actually make this their final destination as I can probably assume not many! CO offers services from smaller airports such as BHX, BFS, BRS, EDI, GLA etc. where there may not be enough demand for just EWR. They do however have connections to various destinations across North and South America from the airport which makes the route viable! Same with EK and DXB - do you really think MAN has that high a demand for DXB - over 900 seats per day?!

By LH signing a contract with Jetblue it gives them the more destinations across the States which will also increase demand for their own flights to reach these destinations! I know it is very simple and has been happening for many years but I still believe it is the best way to fill aircraft and with the current economic climate, will be for some time to come!



ditto!

your 100% correct, this is EXACTLY why globespan's LPL-NYC failed, because of no connections.....you need at least connecting opertunities to succeed on a route like that, especially with major competition just 30 miles away. Personally i think LH will do very well on this route, especially with their codeshare with B6, and with a reputation of being one of the worlds most respected airlines.

Good luck!

G-STAW

[G-STAW]

hello,

just a quicky.....

was an AF A320-100 at MAN yesterday operating the late afternoon rotation?, it must of been the -100 or the A320-200 lost it winglets during flight?

just curious....


G-STAW

[eggc]

G-STAW you sound like it's already been announced.

It is still only a "scetchy" rumour, although it would be nice to see a line of DLH 330's lined up, heading for New York, Hong Kong etc etc each day.

We can only dream...

[MUFC_fan]

Personally i think LH will do very well on this route, especially with their codeshare with B6, and with a reputation of being one of the worlds most respected airlines.


"...will do well..." I'm liking the positivity!

I'm pretty sure that if LH were to bring heavies over the North sea for flights over the pond - NYC will not be the last destination on their list!:ok:


It is still only a "scetchy" rumour, although it would be nice to see a line of DLH 330's lined up, heading for New York, Hong Kong etc etc each day.


Is it possible for LH to fly MAN-HKG?

[G-STAW]

G-STAW you sound like it's already been announced.

It is still only a "scetchy" rumour, although it would be nice to see a line of DLH 330's lined up, heading for New York, Hong Kong etc etc each day.

We can only dream...



that makes two of us then:)whens the launch party?!?joking....

"...will do well..." I'm liking the positivity!


i cant think anything other than positive at the moment, with the route cancellations over the last month or so.....

time will tell guys......

[Suzeman]

Not from Wikipedia :} but from the MEN via UK Airport News 03 June.

It appears from the LTN thread that they intend to operate from there too.

Interesting, especially in the light of the current state of the economy !!

Suzeman




A new luxury-class airline is pressing ahead with plans to start flying from Manchester Airport despite the problems engulfing the sector - with all three all business class airlines operating from the UK failing in the last six months - the Manchester Evening News reports.

Premjet is preparing to start operations next spring using 80-seater Boeing 737 jets. It plans to fly to Malaga and Alicante in Spain, Faro in Portugal and Palma, Majorca with a total of 14 services a week.

The new luxury airline will target well-heeled leisure travellers, including people with holiday homes, across the north. Director Andy Mitchell told the newspaper: ‘We continue to seek investment and our timetable remains unaffected. We believe the demand exists for our service and we believe it will be successful.’

He said passengers would be able to check in online and would have access to airport lounges, adding that fares would be `competitive'. Premjet is headed by chief executive Chris Belcher and its board includes former Manchester Airport director Paul Connellan, who is a non-executive and is acting as a consultant. It is based in Croydon.

[roverman]

Allow me to pontificate. That is all I may do, for although I have worked in the air transport industry for some 28 years I would not profess to have an intimate knowledge of the economics of our worthy calling.

By the mid-1990s, MAN had developed into a significant second-tier gateway airport, with services by most of the principal European flag-carriers and a decent number of long-haul routes out to 3 continents beyond Europe. The strategy pursued under Sir Gil Thompson and others (in accordance with the 1978 White Paper) seemed to have worked and MAN provided the North of England with a realistic alternative the using the London airports when travelling just about anywhere. BA remained lukewarm about MAN as a long-haul hub, but that mattered less and less as overseas carriers moved in one by one. The domestic network was very comprehensive, enabling some serious hubbing through interline and on-line connections over MAN, although the transfer 'product' was never developed to the required quality. The second runway promised the availability of slots to grow this hubbing.

Into the late-90s, even as Runway 2 was under construction, LoCos began to spread out of the South East, most significantly with EZYs committment to Liverpool. Many of us were unsure that this would be a success, but 10 years on it has been hugely successful, with tenfold growth in LPLs pax numbers, helped by RYR of course, even if they have only just eventually scraped a profit this year. Then came Jet 2 at LBA and BLK, bmibaby at EMA; Robin Hood, Coventry, all eating away at MANs catchment with services almost exclusively on the low-cost model. Great in the short to medium term for the traveller living north of Watford - they got cheap flights from a local airport to many of the places they wanted to go (for a holiday, at least). Great for those airports which had been sleepy hollows for many years.

But has it been great for the North of England in the longer term, and is it sustainable? Compared to the mid-1990s described above we now have 'choice' - which so often means fragmentation. We have 'choice' to fly to the same destinations for the same fares from just about anywhere. Whilst I have no doubt that the LoCo boom has generated some new traffic I am equally sure that it has undermined the traffic and yields on the full-service routes that MAN previously supported, leading to the loss of many such services. Of course there have been other factors such as the Iraq war, terrorism, credit crunch, oil price etc, but I can't help wondering that through the fragementation of demand due to LoCo and numerous departure points, the North of England has lost out on having its own air transport hub, something which could only ever be viable at a single airport in the North, and that was obviously MAN.
We've seen MAN lose many of the hard-won long haul routes, and also, worryingly, a good number of primary European routes with flag carriers. In this way MAN has lost its critical mass of services which could feed eachother and make new long haul destinations viable. MAN has seen LoCo growth, basically replacing the old legacy services with the same offerings at the same price as are available from LPL, DCS, LBA etc. Not a great exchange deal for the North, as the price has been the loss of its global direct services. Furthermore, most of the smaller regional airports no longer have a service to LHR, and so they cannot even connect over London. Even where the LoCos operate into major EU hubs they do not have interlining arrangements with the big gobal alliances - another loss of connectivity. Somewhere along the line this must be damaging the economy of the North. Good connections are essential to business. Have we exchanged our good connections for a cheap way of getting to a stag night in Eastern Europe?

Airports were never intended to be profitable. They were not built to be businesses in their own right and to seek turnover and retail spend as their raison d'etre. They were built by governments, both national and local, in order that their country, city or region should benefit politically and economically by the trading links that were forged. That may sound out of date, but I re-ask the question - Has the LoCo-led fragementation of air services ultimately benefitted the North of England?

[harbour cotter]

Roverman, I think your assessment is in the main well thought through. Yes, it is a worsening situation for those who live in the Manchester area, but for everyone else, locos have been beneficial. I use locos to European airports to connect with long haul. Not only can I use my local airport, I can actually save money, as they are not true interlines, I only pay european air taxes. Ok, you have to check in again, but that offsets the original hassle of having to get to Man or a London Airport in the first place. (Incidentally I made additional savings from LPL to LIM via MAD as the flight timings meant that I saved additional costs for a hotel in the London area, - Man was not an option in this case)

Overall, locos have certainly been beneficial for myself (and millions of others by their success), but you are correct in that long-haul has suffered partly as a consequence. For various reasons Man had a near monopoly of services from the North, but there was no possibility that this would continue into perpetuity, but the rapid growth of Locos appears to have caught Man unawares, and their anti-loco initial stance cost them dearly, although I appreciate it was to defend flag carriers.

Man is now a different beast. Instead of the previous policy of trying to strangle all competition elsewhere at birth, which to be fair worked for many years, they now need to maximise their strengths. However the impression given is that they are desperate for anything anywhere which I am not sure is the best model for MAN.

[G-STAW]

Not from Wikipedia :} but from the MEN via UK Airport News 03 June.

It appears from the LTN thread that they intend to operate from there too.

Interesting, especially in the light of the current state of the economy !!

Suzeman




A new luxury-class airline is pressing ahead with plans to start flying from Manchester Airport despite the problems engulfing the sector - with all three all business class airlines operating from the UK failing in the last six months - the Manchester Evening News reports.

Premjet is preparing to start operations next spring using 80-seater Boeing 737 jets. It plans to fly to Malaga and Alicante in Spain, Faro in Portugal and Palma, Majorca with a total of 14 services a week.

The new luxury airline will target well-heeled leisure travellers, including people with holiday homes, across the north. Director Andy Mitchell told the newspaper: ‘We continue to seek investment and our timetable remains unaffected. We believe the demand exists for our service and we believe it will be successful.’

He said passengers would be able to check in online and would have access to airport lounges, adding that fares would be `competitive'. Premjet is headed by chief executive Chris Belcher and its board includes former Manchester Airport director Paul Connellan, who is a non-executive and is acting as a consultant. It is based in Croydon.



one seems to think Mitchell has got board with his millions rolling over in an offshore bank account, its a great way to burn some of that very quickly.

"We believe the demand exists for our service and we believe it will be successful."

Eos, Maxjet and Silverjet said that aswell.....

Seriously, this is another half hearted attempt at making a so called "luxury" airline, we've had three major business startups cease in the last six months. At the current climate this venture will find itmuch harder to make money than eos,maxjet and silverjet ever did.

People dont have the money to spend on these luxurys at the moment, ok theyre aiming at the "holiday home people" bracket, but still, them are the people who want to keep their money, especially when they can get the same(slightly less comfortably) TWO HOUR flight cheaper!

This is the big thing, flying time. Whats the point in having luxury on a 2 hour flight? i would accept it if your where going across the atlantic, your able to appriciate the product more, but not on such a short flight, i think its absolutly pointless....

you can probably tell i dont like idots who think they've got the perfect product, when its failed many times over. This doesnt know what the hell hes doing.....period!

G-STAW

[MUFC_fan]

Surely the product will be similar to the BA Club Europe from LGW and LHR, or the Air France business and first, LH etc.

Obviously the major carriers are selling it from huge bases with massive route networks for onward connections but surely there would be room for an airline that offers luxury (only have to fill 80 seats) that will most likely be charging around a fare U2 or FR would charge a week before departure?

Spending 3 hours (AGP and ALC are abit longer than 2 (unless they plan to bring back the bird from the AVP!) would be a great delight to start the holiday.

Remember the destinations they are flying to: Malaga where the rich and famous play in Porto Banus (spelling?:confused:) and the hundreds of golf courses etc. I would have thought that ALC would be further down the list. PMI would be my 2nd choice as it attracts many more of the rich and famous.

There are many destinations in Europe that would benefit from the business service. Does anyone remember the Airline episode on Brittania where the snotty woman asks for a G&T, then says to the flight attendant "thats a gin and tonic to you." There are many of these people in the UK who would probably use this service.

Anyway...why not let them have a go...its not been done before!

[TartinTon]

Will this Premjet fantasy never die?? The economics of 80 seats on an MD80 just don't work. Out of LTN they would need a fare in the region of £600 return (at current fuel levels) just to cover the operating cost at a 90% load factor. Put simply, there are not enough people who will pay that fare every day of the week. I have previously stated that I will eat my trousers if this airline ever makes a flight. The offer still stands!!!

[MUFC_fan]

The source now seems to show a Boeing 737-800 is on the cards which is more fuel efficient. Maybe an FR long term lease?! They need to make money some how if they are only expected to break even over the next 12 months!

TartinTon, where did you get your stats from please? Cheers.

[FlyZB]

Risky business in the current climate but who knows, this may work. I fly MAN-AGP 3 times a year and whilst there's a choice of about 8 airlines on this route, I always fly Monarch even if that means paying extra. I prefer the service they can offer me despite the fact that it's only a 2 hour 30 minutes flight time. I'm not exactly made of money either! Service and extra's are still important features to a proportion of travellers & people with properties in the Marbella/Puerto Banus area's who do have money may well go for this. Really depends on what they have to offer and what sort of fares they're charging. ALC may well be an error though. I would say AGP, FAO and PMI for starters and see how that works out.

[Fuel Boy]

Their new website is a far cry from the 1st. the one everybody thought was a school project:)

I fly to ALC 2 times a year on avg. and I would use this route if they get it "off the ground" usually I choose ZB to get me there but if their times and costs look good I would give it a go.

And after some quick math the fuel cost per person wouldn't be that bad:)...

Fuel Boy

[Danny_R]

Mr Tartinton... don't quite know where you have got your figures from... but they are well off... the "charter" cost of a Boeing 737-800 from the UK to the Canaries and back is around the £29,000 mark... at 80 seats that equates to £362 per return passenger... so for a flight from the UK to mainland Spain, it would be a lot less than the £600 you quoted.

Nevertheless, with the economic uncertainty at the present time, I can't see 'Premjet' being successful.

[IB4138]

It just might work.

There are quite a few of us down here, who cringe when boarding present flights on the route, to find uncontrolled children on these flights, which I may add, is a growing problem, as are uncontrolled and noisy adults.

[jongeman]

It's difficult for anybody to give a proper analysis of Premjet's chances of success. There are however, many hundreds of thousands of people, some with second homes in Spain and France for whom 'economic uncertainty' and the 'credit crunch' mean nothing at all.

Roverman's thoughts on LCCs and the North of England are interesting, but I disagree that the growth of LCCs have rendered MAN a less viable hub. The old legacy carriers are still here, with the exception of IB and OS which didn't link MAN with MAD and VIE for very long, other second-tier European airports have largely lost their hub status (BRU, MXP, GVA and even to a certain extent ZRH and CPH) in the same time period. We have to compare MAN with these and with BER, BCN, and ARN and we're still not doing too badly.

I think the pull of LHR and BA is still too great. It's not surprising that CX pulled out given the number of available connections on BA/CX and VS, but still, we now have 4 daily departures in that general direction by Gulf carriers, 5 if you include SQ, 7 or 8 if you add ED and PK, which is pretty darn good for a non-capital, non-hubbing 'regional' European airport.

[mickyman]

Premjet

seeking investment....................didnt

Silverjet end up doing that?

Its a fine thing to be having two silly
seasons in the same year before the
end of june.

mm

[andy mach 1]

Ryanair flights to Charleroi-Brussels as follows

Mon & Fri FR8083/4 arr 0655 dep 0720
Thur FR8083/4 arr 1120 dep 1145
Sun FR8083/4 arr 0740 dep 0805

Andrew

[MUFC_fan]

I don't understand how these flights are going to work?

4 times weekly? Who are they exactly aimed at? Surely not business passengers? BE/SN have many daily flights which definitely satisfy the frequency and times. Can it be for the tourism market? Is there enough demand for that? Or is it for a bit of both?

Whatever it is aimed at, its FR so anything could happen!

[mickyman]

MUFC fan

I dont think you should worry so much as I
think Ryanair know what they are doing.............
and thats carrying 51 million or so all over
Europe.

MM

[bermudatriangle]

i believe charleroi offer subsidies for new routes,therefore no requirement to make opearting profit if all costs are subsidised.i might be mistaken,but am sure i read about it recently.

[Charlie Roy]

4 times weekly? Who are they exactly aimed at? Surely not business passengers? BE/SN have many daily flights which definitely satisfy the frequency and times. Can it be for the tourism market? Is there enough demand for that? Or is it for a bit of both?

The times certainly don't suit me (leisure passenger / night owl).
But I suppose Ryanair's presence on the route will make flying to Manchester with SN/BE cheaper for me :E

[MAN777]

Great point of entry to Europe, as is Hahn, if you are going to hire a car. I believe both routes will do well, I will be using them.

[MUFC_fan]

MM,

I know they carry over 50m pax per year but I was just checking who it is going to be used by.

To be honest, I can now book a trip to Bruge that is cheaper than the Eurostar!

[MANFlyer]

Allow me to pontificate. That is all I may do, for although I have worked in the air transport industry for some 28 years I would not profess to have an intimate knowledge of the economics of our worthy calling.

By the mid-1990s, MAN had developed into a significant second-tier gateway airport, with services by most of the principal European flag-carriers and a decent number of long-haul routes out to 3 continents beyond Europe. The strategy pursued under Sir Gil Thompson and others (in accordance with the 1978 White Paper) seemed to have worked and MAN provided the North of England with a realistic alternative the using the London airports when travelling just about anywhere. BA remained lukewarm about MAN as a long-haul hub, but that mattered less and less as overseas carriers moved in one by one. The domestic network was very comprehensive, enabling some serious hubbing through interline and on-line connections over MAN, although the transfer 'product' was never developed to the required quality. The second runway promised the availability of slots to grow this hubbing.

Into the late-90s, even as Runway 2 was under construction, LoCos began to spread out of the South East, most significantly with EZYs committment to Liverpool. Many of us were unsure that this would be a success, but 10 years on it has been hugely successful, with tenfold growth in LPLs pax numbers, helped by RYR of course, even if they have only just eventually scraped a profit this year. Then came Jet 2 at LBA and BLK, bmibaby at EMA; Robin Hood, Coventry, all eating away at MANs catchment with services almost exclusively on the low-cost model. Great in the short to medium term for the traveller living north of Watford - they got cheap flights from a local airport to many of the places they wanted to go (for a holiday, at least). Great for those airports which had been sleepy hollows for many years.

But has it been great for the North of England in the longer term, and is it sustainable? Compared to the mid-1990s described above we now have 'choice' - which so often means fragmentation. We have 'choice' to fly to the same destinations for the same fares from just about anywhere. Whilst I have no doubt that the LoCo boom has generated some new traffic I am equally sure that it has undermined the traffic and yields on the full-service routes that MAN previously supported, leading to the loss of many such services. Of course there have been other factors such as the Iraq war, terrorism, credit crunch, oil price etc, but I can't help wondering that through the fragementation of demand due to LoCo and numerous departure points, the North of England has lost out on having its own air transport hub, something which could only ever be viable at a single airport in the North, and that was obviously MAN.
We've seen MAN lose many of the hard-won long haul routes, and also, worryingly, a good number of primary European routes with flag carriers. In this way MAN has lost its critical mass of services which could feed eachother and make new long haul destinations viable. MAN has seen LoCo growth, basically replacing the old legacy services with the same offerings at the same price as are available from LPL, DCS, LBA etc. Not a great exchange deal for the North, as the price has been the loss of its global direct services. Furthermore, most of the smaller regional airports no longer have a service to LHR, and so they cannot even connect over London. Even where the LoCos operate into major EU hubs they do not have interlining arrangements with the big gobal alliances - another loss of connectivity. Somewhere along the line this must be damaging the economy of the North. Good connections are essential to business. Have we exchanged our good connections for a cheap way of getting to a stag night in Eastern Europe?

Airports were never intended to be profitable. They were not built to be businesses in their own right and to seek turnover and retail spend as their raison d'etre. They were built by governments, both national and local, in order that their country, city or region should benefit politically and economically by the trading links that were forged. That may sound out of date, but I re-ask the question - Has the LoCo-led fragementation of air services ultimately benefitted the North of England?

Spot on, roverman. :D

jongeman, anyone who feels a 'pull' towards LHR and BA is a few bricks short of a load mate, and I don't know many who have that disease any more...

I've just got back from SGN on MH, who you can add to IB and OS on your list of airlines that have left. While a schlep through Schiphol is not the hardest thing to do, it was much better and easier to do KUL-MAN direct a few years back. I see MH are already dumping the LGW-KUL route as well...:ugh:

[Ian L]

Just looking at MXP website to see what Flybe are operating from MAN at the moment. Noticed they are showing Easy Jet are starting operations. Details below have been cut and pasted. So don't blame me if is incorrect.


INFORMATION ABOUT FLIGHT «U2 09013 » IN ARRIVING AT «MILANO MALPENSA» TERMINAL 2 LAST UPDATE AT 22:54Flight n.U2 09013 Aircraft:319Airline:EASY JET (http://www.easyjet.com/) (phone 848.887.766) Valid from:01/10/2008Valid to: 25/10/2008Scheduled:http://www.sea-aeroportimilano.it/images/calendario.gif (http://www.sea-aeroportimilano.it/en/malpensa/index.phtml?mod=../servizi/volistag/popup_cal&id_volo=3434403&lang=en&to=volare)Arrival time:17:45Duration of the flight:2h 10' nintermediate stopscodenationweb site1MANCHESTER MANGran Bretagnawww.manchesterairport.co.uk (http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/)2MILANO MALPENSA (Terminal 2)MXPItaliawww.sea-aeroportimilano.it (http://www.sea-aeroportimilano.it/)

[MUFC_fan]

Anybody know why ZOOM are operating one two of their JFK flights via MAN?

Monday 6th October LGW-MAN-JFK
Sunday 12th October JFK-MAN-LGW

All other flights are as per usual - non-stop.

Cheers.

[G-STAW]

MUFC Fan,

not sure, ill try and find out.

btw zoom are getting in a mess at the moment with frequent delays across their network, mostly over in canada, rather than over here. Its got to the point where some crew are getting alittle frustrated.

BREAK

the result of thomsonfly and first choice merger is that they're being rebranded into "Thomson Airways", first aircraft to be painted by 2nd quarter 2009, im quite suprised...

Last i heard was that FCA liveried planes was staying as, but changing their names on the forward fuselarge...

How quick things change in aviation.......

G-STAW

[sparkysam]

landed late last night on delayed flight operated by tcx the baggage came off fairly quick but after only half had been delivered the baggage stopped after 20 mins we were told that the baggage handlers had gone to terminal 2 to service another flight , they returned after over half an hour to complete the servicing of our baggage . Does anybody know if this is general practice and if so then Why is it general practice ?:=:confused:

[FlyZB]

In some cases, handling agents have an agreement with airlines where flights on schedule get priority over delayed flights. I have never actually come across a scenario where they've ditched a delayed inbound half way through to go and deal with an on time arrival, although I guess this could be one of the clauses in the contract if there were no loaders available to deal with the other flight. One thing that does confuse me slightly about this though is that TCX baggage is done by Menzies and they don't deal with any T2 based airlines.

[G-STAW]

ditto



TCX baggage is done by Menzies and they don't deal with any T2 based airlines



second that, Menzies deffinatly wasnt over here yesterday, unless they was unloading off a remote stand?, if so, i still cant think of whom it could be.

Sounds like its another story to devieve the pax, shifting the blame to try and cover-up an already overstretched operation, no fault of the ground staff mind! its just very bad managment.......

G-STAW

[trumptonville]

Noticed both Wed and today's China A/L freighters were cancelled and also heard a third hand ! story that one of the handlers had lost several flights to China. I know Jett 8 are sacking their route shortly and that China A/L said they were stopping some of their routes, has ours gone or are they just temporary cancellations ?

Andy

[spannersatcx]

Due to increasing fuel costs Air China, China Airlines and Greatwall are reducing their flights.

[Suzeman]

The effects of the cuts mentioned by spannersatcx are already being felt. The May figures show a 6% decline.:{ A lot of this I guess is due to the significant reduction in CX flights but CI were down by a third too.

With a stagnant UK economy and soaring fuel prices, the cargo bubble has probably burst and I don't see this as a growth area for a while unless a new operator appears. Speaking of which, there appears to be no mention of the rumoured Jade service - their website only mentions new service this month to Brescia and Barcelona and increased service to AMS.

Suzeman

[Code 100]

Why are DL and US shown as arriving from Las Vegas, Raleigh Durham and LAX this morning?

I have noticed this over the last few months.

Are they a/c based at those airports that call into the JFK and Philly hubs en-route, and if so, can you book these as a final destination?

[EC-ILS]

Alot of US airlines use T/A flight numbers on domestic legs aswell.

For example here at DUB we have DL operating DUB-ATL-MCO all with flight DL176.

Our CO23 is a DUB-EWR-IAH flight.

[G-STAW]

the delta 064/065 has routed LAS-ATL-MAN-ATL-LAS for the last couple of months or so, i dont know why they do this.

On a dipatch ticket we got last week it stated flight 064 came for LAS, i quietly corrected the allocator, as it came from direct from ATL as pre usual.


G-STAW

[wingeel]

Recently travelled to and from the States ( into Memphis, back from DFW) using US. The flight was shown as 'Las Vegas via Philadelphia'.

Amongst the options offered by my travel agent was Delta ex MAN via Cincinnatti. I was told that the plane would stop at JFK but that I would not have to get off, reclaim my luggage and go through US Customs/Immigration until CVG. Is this correct ?

[spanishflea]

No it is 100% incorrect. I would change travel agents if they are offering advice like that!

[wingeel]

Thought it sounded odd. PHL was'nt too bad for transitting. Dunno what JFK's like.

[G-STAW]

well the daily delta JFK service has been running late for the past week, continental has been uneffected as far as i know.....

delta and US has had an horrid time of late......


G-STAW

[Mr A Tis]

If I had to transit, JFK would be the last place to do it.
PHL or ATL are not too bad.
Get a new travel agent, his "advice" is plainly wrong.

[G-STAW]

hello.

confirmed TK going 10x per week from august!

G-STAW

[BDLBOS]

The JFK service on DL normally has to wait in line for 1 to 2 hours due to congestion, hence it is always difficult to be on time. Saturday morning arrival from JFK was cancelled due to engine surges on climb out. Luckily it was fairly empty, so not much fuel burn, and landed nicely although you could feel the struts taking a heavy load.

All the US routes into MAN always change aircraft at the transatlantic arrival/departure point. For instance Sunday mornings DL 757 started in Boston, then became the MAN flight. The US 330 from PHL used to come in from San Juan, or somewhere, although I believe this has changed.

[Suzeman]

Just discovered this little gem on UK Airport News.

All sorts of interesting nuggets for discussion in this one including "half of the emissions around airports are caused by standing traffic". :8

Always struck me that over the years there have been a lot of regional talking shops which come up with regional strategies that quietly get dropped with little achieved. And it's all very well talking about growth at MAN but where is it all going to come from - especially with the present economic state ( which of course is only a blip....:})

Enjoy

Suzeman


23.06.08

Civic leaders need to concern themselves less with carbon footprints and more with effective planning to ensure that Manchester Airport becomes the focal point for growth in the region, Crain's say, quoting an international expert.

Dr John Kasarda, who was recently invited to speak in the city as part of the Innovation Manchester initiative, said civic leaders needed to prioritise airport growth over environmental concerns. He said: ‘People who talk about putting caps on passenger numbers are basically putting caps on Manchester. On your ability to compete, to raise income levels at the bottom of the ladder and to attract companies from around the world'.

Dr Kasarda, a director of the University of North Carolina's Kenan-Flagler Business School and a leading exponent of the aerotropolis theory of airport-based city growth, said: ‘Stability is not an option either for passengers or cargo - you either grow or you die.’

His comments have special significance for Manchester Airport, where passenger numbers have been flat at 22 million for the past two years. However, Dr Kasarda said Manchester Airport's public ownership model meant that it possessed a unique opportunity to develop ‘both inside and outside the fence’, as long as it was not sidetracked by promises to reduce carbon levels.

He said: ‘You can go back to the Stone Age and reduce your carbon footprint to zero, but I don't know of any metropolitan area that has ever shrunk to greatness. There has to be a balance.’

Dr Kasarda argued that half of the emissions around airports are caused by standing traffic and the best way to reduce it is to better organise land use so that businesses which use the airport most are located nearby, together with a dramatic increase in road and rail capacity.

[Ametyst1]

In order to grow Manchester Airport needs to drastically improve its customer experience. I flew from Manchester Terminal 1 on 14th June and after being dropped off by the car park bus proceeded to the lifts to get to check-in. Only one of the 3 lifts were working with a queue of over 100 people waiting to use the single working lift.

We eventually got to check-in via the arrivals area and up to the "tube" linking the station to the airport.

After check-in we proceeded through security and into the duty-free area and then the passenger lounge before being shepherded into a bussing lounge to await transport to the aircraft on a remote stand. Since checking-in we had been at the airport 90 minutes and not seen daylight!!! The flight was then delayed as the ground handler had failed to clean the aircraft from the night before! This delayed us a for 45 minutes.

On arrival back at Manchester on 22nd June, the aircraft was parked on an air-bridge on Terminal 1. We walked up the air-bridge along a filthy discoloured carpet which was held down by black masking tape. On exiting the air-bridge we weant down stairs across a corridor and up some more stairs. We proceeded along the corridor were the carpet was patched up by black masking tape, was threadbare in places, and even torn which could have caused people to trip and fall.

At the end of the corridor there were two flights of stairs taking us over the departure area. The escalator and the lift here were not working and some passengers had walking difficulties. After crossing over the departures there were two flights of stairs down to the passport area, again the escalator and lift were out of order. This really is not acceptable for a so-called major airport and it is not the first time I have had a bad experience at Manchester.

Perhaps the powers that be at Manchester should visit some of the Far East airports I had just travelled through or even visit Liverpool Airport, only 30 miles away, which has a nice light terminal with working escalators, lifts and nice carpets!

[G-STAW]

agree,

many people think manchester is a shambles of an airport, it doesnt help when you have s**t architects from the offset!

MAN is still in the 1970's. cant believe T2 was finished in 93'!!!!

G-STAW

[Cumulogranite]

In fairness to Manchester Airport (and I am no apologist for them) but as far as T1 is concerned, it was concieved in the 1950's and openend in the 60's. It's concept is on the way to 60 years old. That long ago it was at the forefront of terminal design, since then times have changed and that is why you had the experience you had courtesy of stand 6 or 8.

I find it strange that Manchester has added to or subtracted from various bits of the building in order to satisfy the current rules, yet go abroad and no-one (especially the Spanish) gives a toss about keeping departing and arriving international pax apart. This is the reason as they had to divide the pier into segregated areas and them come up with a way of getting you into the arrivals channel. As for the lifts, well.......

In short the current ammendments appear to be well thought out, although I disagree with forcing everyone to walk through duty free to get to the gate. Terminal 3 is in a similar vain, having been the original A pier and them added to bit by bit. The 50+ stands are great, 41 to 48 leave a lot to be desired.

But as usual the management are looking at a short term fix, rather than the bigger picture. For me the sensible thing would be to extend T2, transfer all T1 work there, then flatten it and start again. Yes a trmemndous cost no doubt, but would leave a proper terminal for the 21st century, with a little future proofing it could lead the way and possibly even attract new business, as it is T1 is old and if it were human would be close to retirement. Perhaps it should!

[G-STAW]

ditto!

ive often wondered, why terminal exteriors dont get a update? they could produce a great looking terminal and save alot of money.i dont think its never been tried on a large scale before...

G-STAW

[FlyZB]

The rules stating that arriving and departing passengers cannot mix are set by the DfT and also UK Customs. The idea behind it is that the DfT don't want passengers who have arrived from countries where they deem security not be to UK standard mixing with departing passengers travelling on UK airlines. It is also a Customs regulation as Tax Free products could be transferred between departing and arriving passengers. These regulations are set by UK not European authorities and that is why such segregation may not occur in other countries.

The way the Piers in T1 were designed meant that MA had no choice other than implement the current system for seperating the 2 sets of passengers. T2 & T3 have no such problems as arrivals and departures are on 2 different levels. The situation is by no means ideal, particularly on B Pier but when the regulations were set the airport adhered to them as quickly and as cost effectively as possible. It is obvious though that the current system is far from efficient in terms of ease for passengers and now the airport is looking at knocking down and rebuilding B Pier as well as remodelling C Pier. However, this in itself creates the problem of where to park aircraft whilst the piers are being redeveloped. Not an easy task and the current mish-mash of walkways will be around for at least another couple of years.

[321go]

Having read with interest the recent "pontifications" of Roverman who does his best to justify the trials and tribulations at Manchester.The facts are quite simple...The Airport Management got it wrong some time ago when they believed they were the best and had no need to go chasing low cost carriers. Complacency was, and still is rife, by a Mangement team who I am told are now made up of ex Supermarket assistants and Railway workers?Sadly, having read an article by a Senior Manager at Manchester they still think they are the best .Think again....several years ago the Manchester Evening News reported from that infamous Airport Spokesperson that Liverpool was doomed and Manchester was set to become the Hub for British Airways and Lufthansa.The rest as they say is History.Manchester has turned into a classic case of "how not to run an Airport".As a frequent Business traveller I am dismayed at the appearance of the Airport when I get off my plane into the mounds of litter (airside and lanside),walk up and down stairs due to lifts and escalators not working.Make pleasant equiries to staff who then tell you its always like that and they too blame the Management. The carpet is stuck together with tape and hand written notices are stuck on walls with the same tape used to keep the carpet together.Perhaps Roverman should get his head out of the clouds and take a look outside of Manchester.As others say there are indeed success stories right here on our doorstep in NW and NE England.You dont have to go too far outside of the UK to see how LCC have benifited regional Airports in France,Germany and of course Poland.Each of which have modern and efficient Terminal buildings.They also have pleasant staff who are proud to work there...and guess what not a roll of Black Tape in sight! Manchester was indeed a great Airport.The past 3 years has sadly seen it decline beyond all previous recognition. I recently spoke to a Senior Airline Manager at the Airport who told me that he also was ashamed at the airports decline stating that most of the "good managers had left leaving the rest well behind"...

[Ringwayman]

Yet for all these "faults" that people find, it keeps getting awards:confused: Today it's reported that the Airports Council International Europe have named it the winning airport for those handling 10 to 25 million passengers a year. Praise was given for "it's simple, innovative approach to attracting airlines".

[Ametyst1]

Perhaps it should recieve an award for it's "simple, innovative approach to losing airlines/routes". This year says it all when Liverpool Airport won the "TTG Airport of the year Award." and Manchester won an award for "Best UK Regional Airport." Manchester never aspired to become a REGIONAL airport!

[strid]

Hi, first of all, if this is in the wrong thread please ignor / delete. I'm flying from Manchester to Majorca on Tues 8th July - 07:15. I don't have any codes yet I wondered if any one new what aircraft we'll be on or who can recommend any sites where I can get that info - Thanks:ok:

[Homo Simpson]

Its very easy to rabbit on about how nice Liverpool airport is. It had a small efficient new terminal built at an airport that didn't and still does not have that many passengers going through it on a daily basis. Much easier than having to make massive changes at a very busy crowded airport. Whilst the changes that are ongoing just now are not a final solution they will help until such time the airport can raise the huge funds to totally change the terminals to bring them up to a much better standard. I think its also worth remembering that a lot of problems are not the airports fault directly but the work shy companies that clean or deliver baggage or whatever other job it is they are meant to actually do. Remember Britain now lives off the "dont give a f**k" attitude.

[TSR2]

Bmibaby flight at 07.15 to Palma on Tuesdays should be an Airbus A319.

[321go]

I could not believe that passengers would vote for Manchester especially for its "Innovative approach to attracting airlines" when its loosing them? (Didn't they sack their sales team? - now thats Innovation for you!)

So Just did a check on the ACI Europe Web site...Guess what.... Immediate Past President....none other than Mr Geoff Muirhead - CEO Manchester Airport!!! What ever next ...donations to the Labour Party?

Who on earth do these people think they are trying to fool. The public and airlines are walking away from the place! Take a look at Zurich,now thats a smart efficient airport.I am sure their CEO will want to come to Manchester and view an award winning airport and wonder where they went wrong?:ugh:

[TSR2]

Passed through Terminal 1 recently for a flight at 08.00 which is smack bang in the middle of the morning peak period.

Check-in was quick and efficient and absolutely no delays at security.

Sure, the Terminal is not pretty at the moment but it is FUNCTIONAL. There was not one single flight showing a delay to the departure time.

The more observant passenger will not have failed to notice several huge signs saying 'THIS TERMINAL IS CURRENTLY UNDER RE-DEVELOPMENT - COMPLETION DUE SPRING 2009. We apologise for any inconvenience.'

Having now seen the extent of the re-development, I personally feel that it has taken some exceptionally good planning to maintain the throughput of passengers and prevent flight delays due to airport services during the re-development phase.

[MMENCLLBAMAN]

I couldn't agree more TSR2!

I am no more a fan of Manchester airport than I am of the other British/overseas airports I use on a regular basis however I have to admit that despite the extensive redevelopment taking place the last five or six times I have passed through the airport (T1/2/3) I have experienced no extensive delays at check in, security etc including during morning/evening rushes.

Yes, it is not pretty at the moment however I do believe they are trying to change things for the better. At the end of the day, I do not use airports for their asthetically pleasing interiors - my major concern is getting through it and to my destination as quickly and with as little stress as possible.

[Momentary Lapse]

MAN has had "Terminal under redevelopment" signs for as long as I can remember, going right back to Patio Court (when it became Ground Level Check In in 1990) or before. That's an old tactic but it's no excuse.

The one thing MA is good at is its PR - sucking up to all political parties and getting Geoff's big fingers in many pies. One thing it's not good at is running a day to day operation, at least at a strategic level. Many of the operational managers are quite good but are hampered by the fools above.

Remember Iain Burns, who resigned from BA over the price rigging affair a couple of years ago? Where did he learn his craft? Why, MAPLC....

As I've said before, the solution to disinterested baggage etc. workers is to pay them a reasonable wage, then perhaps they'll see it as a career to be proud of rather than a fill-in till something better comes along.

[Betablockeruk]

Quote "The one thing MA is good at is its PR - sucking up to all political parties and getting Geoff's big fingers in many pies. One thing it's not good at is running a day to day operation, at least at a strategic level. Many of the operational managers are quite good but are hampered by the fools above."


As a fully paid up Mancunian (Council Tax) it's quite depressing to read endless complaints regarding MAPLC inability to run an efficient, customer focused business. However, MAPLC is not a genuine PLC, in that shares can not be purchased on the stock market, and is essentially a council owned operation. My experience with any business that has roots in government ownership, be that local or national, is that politics remain the first priority with regards to all decision making - I experienced numerous unpleasant occurrences of business decisions being overturned by Counsellors demands even though the company was a genuine PLC for over 15 yrs.

Back to the 'fully paid up' comment. Looking at MAPLC accounts, my council (Tameside) owns 5% and receives dividends to this amount. In 2007 that was approx 1.25m and presumably keeps my council tax a little lower than it should be. However, it is clear that MAPLC needs to throw off the council shackles and move out of political circles.

So MAPLC strategy should be to avoid looking at other airport purchases and actually purchase themselves!


One last thought. The majority owners of MAPLC struggled to organise a day out for 50,000 Rangers fans in Piccadilly Gardens so what chance of running a major UK airport taking 22mill pax per annum?

[Ametyst1]

I didn't just rabbit on about Liverpool, I also mentioned Far East airports which were absolutely magnificent and handle just as many if not more passengers than Manchester Airport each day/week/month year!

Actually, Terminal 1 probably handles about the same amount of passengers as Liverpool Airport does as a whole.

[Bucephalus]

I think all british airports need to look further afield to the likes of Dubai and the Far East to see how far behind we really are

[GLENO]

Yes could'nt agree more!!!!.....at least they have clean and working toilets!!:}

[mickyman]

GLENO

Do you have a ###### for toilets everytime you visit an airport?

I myself do not linger in them atall enough to compare them.

Or are the toilets really dirty after you have visited them !!

MM

[pwalhx]

I travel all over the world and there are some fine examples in the Far East, several like HKG, KUL have been built from new. (N.B. I don't find the hordes of people lying on the floor in the termainl at Dubai particularly attractive).

Manchester isnt the best at present but it is by far away from being the worst.

I am not sure of the figues but I am sure T1 handles more than Liverpool.

As for the airport loosing routes, it's hardly an avalance and many airports are loosing routes or frequencies as airlines cut back because of oil costs.

In an ideal world they would knock T1 down and start again, but that isnt going to happen is it.

Persobally I fly through Manchester or Leeds quite a lot and have no issues with either, if anything the Terminal at leeds needs attanetion more than Manchester.

[Mr A Tis]

Agreed there are epic revamps going on at the moment in all the terminals splashing a fair amount of money about.
What would improve the passenger experience both immediately & relatively cheaply, would be the small things.
Why is it so many escalators, walkways & lifts do not work? Why have there been queues of over 100 on the ground floor T1 trying to get to check in on level 5?
Why was a lift in T2 multi storey u/s for six months?
Why was it one day all 3 lifts at the rail station were u/s ?
Why are the toilets often dirty & smelly.
These are simple easy things to fix that have a big impact on the customer.
... and yes, I agree, stop fannying about with other airports & fix this one.

[GLENO]

Very Good Mickeyman!!:D

It's not that Ive a fettish for toilets often when I travel I often have the Four year old daughter in tow with me!! not a lot to ask for Toliet roll, Hand dryers/ Towels to be working and the floor clear of urine......can't exactly take her in the ladies can I ?....Don't know what they are like ...perhaps you can enlighten us all Mickeyman??

.......Manchester at the moment is a joke........Got the pleasure of flying from T3 next friday morning and the back into T2 on Sunday evening......will report back on the toilets facilities just for you Mickeyman....

[FlyZB]

Isn't all this MAN bashing getting a little boring. There are many good points being made but the same things get brought up every other week. Yes, there are many improvements that do need to be made but these are not going to happen overnight. In many cases, the airport has recognised where investment needs to be focused and a short walk around any of the terminals will tell you that this is taking place right now. I agree with Mr A Tis in the respect that the key areas that need tackling are cleanliness and u/s walkways, lifts etc. Cleanliness was of primary importance when Gill was around. He made it his aim that the place was sparkling 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Since then the cleaning budget has been reduced year on year and although Initial have assured management that they can still keep standards high with the reduced costs, they can't! This needs sorting. I guess the reason why many of the walkways etc are constantly u/s is because they are old and poorly maintained. They need replacing not repairing. Having had some dealing with this area, I will say that the service provider OTIS who are contracted to fix these are far from reliable. Regarding the tape on the carpets, this is for health and safety. If the carpet bobbles or is uneven, the tape has to be put down to indicate or prevent a trip hazard. It looks ugly but the H&S executives insist that its done. The best thing to do would be to get rid of carpet altogether. They did this in T2 so why they relaid new carpet on B Pier I do not know.

I don't hide the fact and make no apologies for being pro MAN. I work there as a representative for the airport and am very proud to do so. I don't have my head in the clouds and I fully realise that the passenger experience could be better. However, it is not as bad as a lot of people are making out. Maybe you have higher standards than me, maybe you're just fussy travellers. I agree that it is nowhere near the same class as some of the European and Far East hubs but many of these airports are a lot busier and more important than Manchester is. A lot of them also benefit from newer terminals whereas MAN has to make do with what its got. Despite the fact that many of you would disagree, I think the way that T1 has adapted and continues to be adapted to meet the increasing passenger numbers and travellers needs is nothing short of remarkable. And when it's all finished next Spring I truly believe it will be something to be proud of. T1 will never be a Dubai or a Singapore, but what it will be is an efficiently functioning terminal which will be a facility to get people on and off aircraft. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all it needs to be.

And just a side note for those of you bigging up LPL. What's so good about this airport? My experiences there have been nothing to write home about, certainly no better than what I've experienced at MAN as a passenger. Liverpool has an advantage over MAN in the respect that it is a newer, more modern terminal which has less passengers passing through it. Yet, I really don't see what the fuss is all about. Can't say I was all that impressed to be honest.