MANCHESTER - 5

[airport1]

Hi Flyzb i know youve not mentioned anything about fed ex do you have any info on the airline expanding out of man

[1station]

Further update from the airport says no change to the problems however, hoping to have fuel pumping to the field by midnight tonight.

There was no fuel delivered yesterday via pipeline.

[viscount702]

I can't find the flights anymore on the HKG website. Was this an April fool?

[tigermike]

I would imagine that these were O8 slot requests that had been uploaded on to the website in error.
Hope i'm wrong though.

[MAN Guy]

Anybody got any early indications of what loads are like on their new non-Irish routes at MAN?

Interested to see how Bremen does..... remember the very short lived OLT service anyone?! Still, I guess FR have slick advertising on their side :ok:

[Vuelo]

An excellent start by all accounts, GRO almost macced out already and MRS no far behind. BRE also strong.

[Ringwayman]

I reckon FR would only had to have operated a maximum of 3 services to Bremen to have carried more passengers than OLT did.

[conradmueller]

Oasis seems to close down: No reservations are taken anymore.
A.net has also some comments to this.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3925897/

[MANFlyer]

Yep, gone into liquidation. Surprised to hear as they were supposedly doing well.

Oh well. Come in CX (please), your number is up...:)

[Mr A Tis]

You do wonder why an airline in finacial straights wanted to splash out a lot of cash in launching new routes?
Anyway, MAN-HGK seems doomed to remain best via FRA, well you wouldn't wanna chance T5 would you?

[MUFC_fan]

FRA?

Would sooner choose Abu Dhabi, Paris, Dubai, Amsterdam or Qatar than Frankfurt!

As you can tell, I'm not an LH lover!:ok:

[MAN Guy]

Yes it is very odd Oasis were looking to expand rather than retrench if they were in trouble.

So a HKG pax service remains as elusive as ever. As for CX resuming pax flights in light of this I'd say there's more chance of hell freezing over! At least the budget-haters will be happy, no HKG from Oasis and seemingly no KUL from Air Asia X.

[mickyman]

Can the spotters return to their forum now then.........

MM

[GLENO]

Is it summertime yet?, the Manchester Basher Mickeyman has come out of Hibernation!! ....crawl back under your rock please!!.....if you have nothing good to say don't say it at all!!

[mickyman]

Dry them eyes GLENO............

MM

[mickyman]

GLENO

Further...............

I am not a 'Manchester basher' as you assume.I just have a
more realistic grasp of things than you and your ilk.
The economic down turn with its effect on jetfuel prices etc is a
pointer to severe problems for those airlines who live on the
cusp of profits.
Your boyish enthusiasm for rumour-routes is misplaced when
these conditions exist.
Oasishongkong didnt seem financially tough enough to me to
be able to operate in these economic circumstances.

Getting people to travel long-haul from the regions is another
'difficulty' of economics and its to some airlines great credit
that they do so from Manchester with success.

However the 'field of dreams' scenario only works for airlines
as sharp and clever as Ryanair and only then on short-haul
trips.

Ryanair have not attempted medium/longhaul yet - I wonder
why!

Enough for now.

MM

[GLENO]

Tatty bye!!:}

[MANFlyer]

CDG ?. You're having a laugh. Twinned with LHR that place...

AUH is crap but quiet enough to make it tolerable for transferring. DOH is a joke of an airport (premium terminal excepted). QR do very well to get the pax they do to go through there. Good job the on board product is decent.

AMS is a great airport but KL are hard work. Fortunately MH use AMS as it's European hub so you only get fed onto KL for the hops over here. Not a fan of DXB or EK.

I use FRA a lot and quite like the place. Also got the MUC option on LH.

[ATNotts]

Mickyman - spot on. I sometime wonder just how much financial / economic nowse some posters have. I guess that a fair few aren't actually old enough to be in control of a household, let alone corporate budget!

Regional airports, in the current economic climate are lucky to hang on to what they have, long haul wise. When times are tough there will always be a gravitation toward high yield, capital city airports. Thats not to say the MAN / BHX and the like might not pick up the odd new route.

[TechProblem]

To change the subject to a bit closer to home, Flight Support take over the ramp for Flybe off Ringway this coming Sunday, im told.

One of the biggist airlines for movements in MAN, its going to be good to see if they coped as well as they did when they took the contract over in the first place.

[GavinC]

Against the backdrop of stagnation and falls in passenger numbers, could we have the busiest ever May at Manchester? With the UEFA cup final at COMS being potentially contested by two continental based teams and the possibility of a United v Liverpool final in Moscow meaning lots of extra flights out, it could be a good month for MAN. Any thoughts??

[Scottie Dog]

As you will have gathered from previous posts I appear to have an avid interest with regards to planned development at the airport. As a result I thought the following might be of use:

UK AIP effective 8th May 2008

Stands 12/14/56/57/SB1/SB2/SB3 withdrawn from use. I assume 56/57 is due to the constrction work refered to lower down.

Intermediate stopbar N1 introduced abeam stand 66 - if illuminated, then I am sure that ATC will love the fact that there will at last be a stop-point between NA1 and D6 in LVPs!!

Work in progress shows where Males garage was previously situated. I seem to recall both FlyZB and Roverman refering to this area being for the construction of 3 737 size stands (for completion by September?)

Also not noted elsewhere is the fact that the design contract for the new tower has been placed with CPMG Architects. CPMG have previous ATC experience, having been responsible for EMA tower and also the design for the new BHX facility.

Roverman, a question for you - if RET JB is WFU, then why does it show on the May charts? Purely an inquisitive enquiry!!

Scottie Dog

[Suzeman]

From UK Airport News


Manchester Airports Group chief executive Geoff Muirhead has said that slower growth in the airline industry and increased taxes on passengers is set to take its toll on the business over the next 12 months.

Speaking at a regional economic discussion organised by the CBI last week, he said he was ‘not anticipating any growth at all’ this year at Manchester Airport, but MAG's smaller regional airports including Humberside, Bournemouth and East Midlands should fare slightly better due to the fact that they served more of the low cost airlines.
He said: ‘Last year was the first year I can remember in the aviation industry where growth has been down to 3 percent, except when there has been a major economic shock,’ adding that average growth rates for aviation over the past 30 years have been closer to 7 percent.

Mr Muirhead said the Government's doubling of Air Passenger Duty rates last year as a factor in slowing growth. He said: ‘It is a £2.5bn tax on the aviation industry and I think it's getting to a tipping point where it's really quite challenging in respect of the UK's competitiveness. We cannot compete as a trading nation if we don't facilitate people getting around to actually do the trading. Nothing is without its cost, as we saw a few years ago when pension funds were targeted.’

He also argued that demand would be weakened by increasing pressures on consumer spending, saying: ‘The things you have no choice about — food, energy, transport — those are going up at horrendous rates.’

Discuss.

Suzeman

[dbertman]

In what way has Humberside served any low-cost airlines over the past year?

[Musket90]

JB is probably not shown as WFU in the latest AIP because AIS require a longer period to process chart amendments than text. It'll probably show in the next published amendment.

[lexoncd]

This whole growth thing continues to amaze me. The continued growth rate of 7% is going to come from where?

Starting with the business market. Increased use of e.mail, video conferencing has boomed since 9/11 when many organisations looked at the travel problems and found alternative ways to replace some of their meetings. Astra Zeneca for example, who are big users of the airport restriced many staff to a set number of trips to cust down on costs and uses alternative ways of doing business. The numner of people who find a day buiness trip frustrating with security and delays and simply cut down on travel.

As for the leisure market, well most peole have a fixed number of days holiday per annum. Start with a two week summer trip and a standard generalisation and then you have traditionally seen possibly one or two other trips a year. The growth of low cost airlines and changes in travel patters have seen the average summer holiday duration drop and with an increase in the number of short breaks through the year. This change has happened and unless there is a rapid increase in the uk population or we all get extra days holidays there is a finite number of times you are able to travel.

The fall in Sterling coupled with the rise of flight costs from what will in time been seen as an all time low will see the number of short breaks being reduced as consumers have to fund increases in other costs and Muirhead rightly says.

The long haul future is for carriers who can feed into a network such at Etihead, Qatar, Delta and others.

[Momentary Lapse]

So Geoff is disappointed at 3% growth? Many industries would love 3% growth. UK PLC won't even see 3% growth this year, and nor will my or many other people's pay packets - don't mention RHSL at this point.

He's playing a bit of "it was better in the good old days" here - another sign of losing a bit more of what little grip he ever had on running the company. For example, I could play the same game right back at him, by saying: "bring back Sir Gil". About as useful, I'd suggest.

Dear Rowena has seen the signs and moved on to safer things - it really is time Geoff did the same and let some modern-thinking managers in - for goodness' sake he's been in the job 15 years this year, and has he yet realised just how much the world has changed in that time? 15 years ago we didn't have mass access to the internet (video conferencing, online booking etc) nor viable low cost carriers, nor reasonable domestic competition from the rail network, nor the security restrictions due to the real or imagined terror threat that HM Govt keeps stoking up to keep the populace subdued, nor a robust environmental industry etc etc.

MAPLC is comparable to BL, IBM, BT and other ageing monoliths. It just needs Tom Peters to write a book about it to put the final nail in the coffin.

This man is so tackling the problem from the wrong end.

[Momentary Lapse]

And some other things:

1 MAPLC spent most of the 90s sucking up to both Labour and the Tories: they got planning permission for R2 from the Tories before they left office, and they largely wrote the Aviation White Paper for Labour, which has encouraged growth in regional airports. To criticise Labour's economic policy now (whether justified or not) is pure hypocrisy.

2 People need transport in the sense of needing to get to work or the shops. For many people, they don't need air transport. They used to want it when they (leisure) or their employer (business) had disposable income. I think Geoff is now finding out the size of the difference between want and need, and it's bigger than he expected.

[Bagso]

Re Geoff Muirhead....

............"he's been there so long he s/b carbon dated"

[FlyZB]

It's going to be an eventful next couple of weeks at MAN in terms of happenings from around the terminals, with the redevelopment work shaping up nicely. I shall try and keep you all informed with what's going on behind the scenes as much as I can.

The new T1 security area will be open Monday 28th April if all goes to plan. I had a sneaky peak this morning and it looks great. Bright, spacious and most importantly, plenty of x-rays! Work has started now on putting up a frosted glass screen at the bottom of the ramp and this of course will be the new landside/airside divider. Work on the new staff channel next to check-in desk 2 is also nearing completion.

With regards to T3, the airport have now done a u-turn and have decided to operate a bus service between T3, T1 and the station. This will run every 10 minutes between 0400-2200. The creation of an undercover walkway between T1 & T3 is still going ahead for passengers/staff who wish to walk and for people who are travelling outside of the operational bus times.

[en2r]

Oasis Hong Kong Airlines went into liquidation yesterday which firmly rules out any chance of them operating to Manchester

[Suzeman]

Scottie Dog wrote

Stands 12/14/56/57/SB1/SB2/SB3 withdrawn from use

Anyone explain what is going on at the end of Pier B which closes Stands 12/14 and the South bay stands?

Suzeman

[Scottie Dog]

Suzeman

What an appropriate time to ask the question as I have just found AIP Supplement S 6/2008 which is most enlightening. If I may summate:

Terminal 3 extension - April-October 2008, as previously mentioned. Upon completion of the work all stands will return to normal, with the exception of stands 55 and 56 which are permanently withdrawn.

Construction of new parallel taxiway north of Taxiway Kilo and between Taxiways Delta and Foxtrot. Period of work 14th April-24th December 2008:

Phase A: (14th April-29th August) Stands 12, 14, 15, SB1-SB3 closed.

Taxiway Juliet diverted between J7 and intersection with Taxiway Delta.

Taxiway Delta closed between D3 and D4. Taxiway Bravo closed east of intersection with Taxiway Charlie.
Further night time closures will be advised by NOTAM.

Phase B: (1st September-24th December 2008) Stands 10, 12 and 14 closed.

Stands SB1, SB2, SB3 permanently removed.

Stands 12 and 14 retuned to use in different configurations from present, after works completion.

Taxiway Lima becomes cul-de-sac for duration of works

Routes J9-D5 and D4-D5 closed during nightime works.

For information the grass island between South Bay stands and Taxiway Kilo will be reshaped.

Hope that will be of assistance.

Scottie Dog

[Suzeman]

Thanks Scottie.

Once I looked at the chart, all became clear(er). This must be to do with the airfield taxiway rationalisation talked about by Roverman. And don't I remember somewhere in this thread that Stand 12 was going to be an A380 stand?

By the way, I notice that the overnight closure of 05R/23L has been extended by a week, presumeably because of the inclement weather in the last couple of weeks?

Suzeman

[MUFC_fan]

Can somebody please explain to me when SQ is moving back to 5-times weekly on the SIN route? In March they had a L/F of 93.4%!:eek:
Other good figures were achieved across the long haul programme including:

DXB 89%
AUH 87%
DOH 72%
EWR 85%
ATL 88%

PHL 48%:(

There are many other great routes but these are all preliminary and some of the routes carry more PAX. For example, 5660 people went to LAX from MAN last month with US (I think) which will have pumped number up even more.

[viscount702]

MUFC_fan

Like many of us I find the SQ decision very strange.

I cannot believe that with load factors like that and the fact that they are fairly consistently high that the flight cannot be profitable. Further business class is regularly full and therefore it is not just the back end that gets the PAX.

People will say that it is not just the number of PAX but the yield. That may be true but when a plane is full both back and front then there is something wrong if it is not profitable provided of course the fares are not heavily discounted. which doesn't seem to be the case.

The fares from MAN are similar to if not slightly higher than those from LHR so why the decision when most airlines would be considering increasing rather than decreasing with that performance and staff at MAN had I believe requested extra flights.


RE PHL you need to add the LAX figures to get the correct load which I think is about 80%

Viscount

[tb10er]

How are these guys doing?

We hear about EK, EY, QR, etc.

[OltonPete]

MUFC_fan

"PHL 48%" - late night was it?;) only joking.

If you add the 5660 LAX pax to it it looks rather good :ok:

I can't read my own writing but it looks like 8526+5660 = 14186
or 228 per flight. Could be a typo in there but it was good anyway.

I think the provisional figures always show the split between
PHL and LAX - I trust it is LAX the flight number goes onto LAX
(not the aircraft) - that is of course if a flight number can
actually go on anywhere :ooh:

Some of Manchester's European routes were not too bad either.

Pete

[MUFC_fan]

Thanks. I thought it inc. LAX!:ok:

[Scottie Dog]

Okay, here are the answers to your questions:

Libyan - +46pc with 777 passengers
Saudia - Jeddah - 211 passengers, Riyadh - 896 passengers
Syrian - +3.27pc with 725 passengers.

Nothing about the latter 2 gets me very excited.

I will look at European destinations shortly.

[Scottie Dog]

Just a brief look at some of the European destinations and, bearing in mind that Easter was early this year, it is hard to tell how things are really doing. How will the economic downturn effect the later months?

Top place for percentage increase is Tel Aviv: +244pc and 4200 passengers
Bratislava: +153pc, 7648 passengers
Murcia: +129pc, 12690 passengers
Naples: +124pc, 2471 passengers

Nearer to home

Cork: +91pc, 12838 passengers
Basle: +90pc, 2844 passengers
Shannon: +70pc, 5859 passengers
Waterford: +61pc, 2135 passengers

Paderborn and Toulouse each had an increase of between 51-56pc
Following had increases in the range 40-49pc - Antwerp, Athens, Hamburg, Sofia.
Increases of over 10pc were recorded on numerous other routes and it is especially pleasing to see Helsinki, Geneva and Rotterdam included.

Major declines were Bergamo, Krakow, Barcelona, Warsaw, Stockholm, Brussels, Amsterdam and Luxembourg.

Remember though that these are provisional figures and are subject to adjustment.

[EC-ILS]

They are some healthy % increases! Id love to see the % increase on MAN-SVO/DME next month.

[MANFlyer]

I am afraid the SQ decision is nothing to do with MAN, it's to do with the requirements of SQ globally and the yield they can get elsewhere.

I fly all over the Asia Pacific region with SQ and all their flights are rammed, and have been for a while. Their India and China routes are filling the flights up at a staggering rate. They are desperately short of birds at the moment, something that is not going to improve in the short to medium term. So unfortunately, they have to nick them from elsewhere, and we have to suffer.

BTW, if someone is regularly being quoted more to fly from MAN than LHR then get a new TA, sharpish.

[semisonic]

Well surely then the drop in SQ capacity must act as further catalyst for another carrier to move in...be it Air China next year, a NZ service or whoever. or emirates will just add a 9th daily service!!

[viscount702]

I would seem that they are starting flights to KSC in June on days 1 3 5 until the end of September

Viscount

[GavinC]

does anyone know if we are likely to get any Baltic destinations anytime soon?

[trumptonville]

Just interested to see who carried the Toulouse pax ?, no scheds from MAN.

Also Syrian haven't operated since the end of the winter schedule

Andy

[Whitehatter]

SQ also have a number of aircraft due in for checks, together with the progressive withdrawal of the 747 passenger fleet. Manchester will see the reductions in off-season purely because they need capacity elsewhere in the system.

A380 delays in delivery didn't help their fleet planning either.

[MUFC_fan]

SQ also have a number of aircraft due in for checks, together with the progressive withdrawal of the 747 passenger fleet. Manchester will see the reductions in off-season purely because they need capacity elsewhere in the system.

A380 delays in delivery didn't help their fleet planning either.


Good point.

But I am not expert, but if the A380 (ther replacement, along with the 77W for the SQ 744), why are they withdrawing the 747? Are they on lease or are they owned? Surely if they are owned they can keep them in the fleet and keep them in line with the A380 deliveries?:confused:

[MAN Guy]

"Also Syrian haven't operated since the end of the winter schedule"

Anybody know whether this is a planned break or have they shut up shop at MAN?

[WincoDinco]

"Also Syrian haven't operated since the end of the winter schedule"

Anybody know whether this is a planned break or have they shut up shop at MAN?


Syrian have cancelled all their April flights; the twice per week DAM flights now planned to start early May.

---

As an aside; An Antonov Design Bureau ad-hoc is coming in on the 21 Apr, leaving 0900 next morning. (An124?)

[sparkysam]

does anybody know the arrival time thanks sparkysam

[steve platt]

Arrival time for antonov is 21 30 flight number is adb1770. Beware though this is already the 3rd change of arrival time.

[Whitehatter]

SQ had those 747s planned for retirement years ago. Their tax system lets them amortise over a set number of years, which is why they turn their fleet over whilst still relatively young and maximise value. SQ have been involved in some rather creative sale and leaseback deals in the past that even involved people like Arnie Schwarzenegger!

I always think they are a little bit like a chess player, planning moves years in advance. That's how they do business, and successfully too. By now they would have planned to have a number of A380s in service rather than just three and that causes a ripple down through their fleet planning.

[steve platt]

Just had revision nuber 4 of the arrival time for the antonov its now due on 22/4/08 at 07 45. No departure time as yet.....

[TURIN]

BA TO PULL THE MAN-JFK IN OCTOBER.:mad::ouch::uhoh::{:yuk::*:eek:

[eggc]

I was waiting for someone else to post this. I heard it yesterday. At least I know that I wasnt been fed a duffen ! Wonder if AA might take it up ?

[aeulad]

Virgin have to take this one on! Either that, or DL need to go twice daily with the 752.

Regards

Mike

[Flightrider]

I don't think there will be any need for Virgin or DL to step into the breach. Rumours are that the MAN-JFK is being replaced by LGW-JFK but that MAN-JFK will be taken on by Open Skies with the 757. Overall amount of flying to JFK remains the same for "BA pilots" but the Open Skies 757 operations are new.

[spanishflea]

LGW-JFK was announced today so this makes sense...

[TURIN]

LGW-JFK was announced today so this makes sense...

Is that via MAN?

:confused:

[spanishflea]

Is that via MAN?

No? :confused:

The MAN 767 moves to LHR which displaces an LHR 777 to LGW to operate their new LGW-JFK service. So Gatwick's gain is Manchester's loss.

[lexxity]

Please, please, please could some one down at Donington see this and jump all over it.

[ara01jbb]

You're not the only one thinking that tonight. Where are all those additional 332s BD's loyal fans (and employees) have been waiting for? :(

[virginblue]

Some guy over at a.net says that MAN-JFK will be taken over by OpenSkies.

[MUFC_fan]

Doubt it.

That would make Openskies the only airline into MAN that offers F class (I'm not sure about Saudi?)

Will expect either:

DL go double daily or increase a/c size
CO go triple daily for increase a/c size
VS launch on the route
BD launch on the route

BA are a disgrace!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Since when have Open Skies mentioned anything about First Class MUFC_fan?:rolleyes:

Open Skies is Biz, Eco + and Eco :confused:

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Quote virginblue: "Some guy over at a.net says that MAN-JFK will be taken over by OpenSkies."

Errm, so did Flightrider on this thread 6 posts before yours. :ok:

Heard the same this afternoon, but discarded it as whispers until I read others had heard the same.

[MUFC_fan]

Sorry, my mistake.

Still, going from a very profitable 763 to a 752 surely doesn't make sense? Oh...wait...yes it does - London is profiting from it!:rolleyes:

Still, the service looks very nice onboard the 752 and would very much like to travel on my favourite a/c over the pond with the carrier. Tried CO, next is DL and then BA!:ok:

Seriously, I hope VS or BD come instead of BA onto the route, atleast they will stick with the airport.

[Skipness One Echo]

Well it's been expected for a while and I guess the loss of G-YMMM hasn't helped. The whole reason of dumping the LGW-JFK run was to concentrate at LHR and allow LGW to concentrate on the Caribbean and Florida runs. Well that was last weeks policy and now a good profitable point to point has been sacrificed for dumping more capacity on London - New York.

[HOVIS]

I heard it had been operating empty half the time for the last few weeks. Lack of CC ??

Last of the BA staff to leave Manchester please turn out the lights. :(

[Whitehatter]

Openskies at MAN?

:ugh:

Wicked Willie might as well have "I am a liar" tattooed on his forehead if that were to happen.

Openskies recruits pilots to fly its 757s
Unions say Openskies is a Trojan project to replace BA drivers
Willie says no
Openskies then replaces BA at MAN with BA drivers being replaced
Unions say "Told you!" and promptly brand BA and its boss as liars.

Obviously whoever posted this at a.net was another "in the know" example alongside the "in the know" fifteen year olds with thirty years experience who predicted that Boeing had the KC-767 deal in the bag. Openskies at MAN would take the current industrial unrest to a new level by handing the unions the argument on a plate.

[Flightrider]

Obviously whoever posted this at a.net was another "in the know" example alongside the "in the know" fifteen year olds with thirty years experience

I didn't post this at a.net but did post it here, and it seems to have been picked up and posted elsewhere. And I hope the above description wasn't aimed at me - very "off-key" if so.

[spanishflea]

Manchester staff were told by the person that made the announcement to them that OpenSkies would replace the lost flight at some point. It was pretty ambiguous and I can't imagine it ever coming to fruition.

As a side note MAN-JFK hasn't been taken out of the schedules yet, however LGW-JFK has been added...

[Railgun]

What planet are you on, there are no ba crew in man. Only the crew on a hated back to back thats not a back to back that operates via man and shuttle crew on a night stop. O and if it was half empty due to crew that means a heathrow newark was the same, half empty.

It makes sense. Since the 777 hull loss at LHR a aircraft had to come from somewhere to aid growth and manc was the route thats been chopped.

MUFC_FAN. You IMHO need to realise manchester is a regional airport, not a national airport and will never in the forseable future harbour any growth from national carriers. SQ, BA, BD, CA, Qf etc. The Yield is not there...

[comet 4b623PW]

Scrapping MAN- JFK just does not seem to make any sense at all, heard by a few different sources that this a profitable route. Can well understand that BA may well need the B767 capacity at LHR at least in the short term till it's 4 new B777,s start to arrive next year. Surprised it has not ordered a replacement for G-YMMM especially as the insurance is to be paid in full.
Replacing a BA operation with Openskies would not seem likely at this moment in time as this is intended to fly from mainland Europe and as I understand it BA is still in negotiations with it's unions.
A possible solution may be to move two B757,s to MAN and operate the route twice daily as a BA operation.

[NZ787-919]

this could really go in bmi's way a MAN-JFK could work very well, dout the would use a 757 on it tho and as for the a332's well its gone very quite lol

[Skipness One Echo]

The MAN-JFK was the *ONE* route that jarred with the business model as it didn't feed Heathrow or serve London. The loss of G-YMMM made this quite likely as BA are short of aircraft even before the crash. I don't see BMI rushing in there as the route already has Delta and Continental running to New York as well.

[Betablockeruk]

Subtle use of words on the press release - "British Airways is to suspend its daily flight from Manchester to New York JFK".

Suspend from some gallows or just postpone? :confused:

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Whitehatter, have you been in the sun a bit much? ;)

The 76' goes back down south to be redeployed, hence there is no net loss of routes for mainline.

Can't see anyone will have grounds for the argument you make.

I too had heard the Open SKies rumour yesterday; does my 22 years in the job class me therefore as a spotty 15 year old know-it-all too? :=

Jeez, the attitude of some know-it-alls who really don't. :mad:

[Muizenberg]

The writing has been on the wall, ever since BA closed the cabin crew based and outsourced ground handling to Aviance. Have operated the route several times as Cabin Crew, and loads vary from full to less than half, with very erractic loads in J. The service received from Aviance and other external service partners was hit and miss to be honest.

DL, CO, AA, US have been more successful at MAN as they can offer connections to their entire North American Networks and beyond with the advantage of avoiding LHR. BA was only able to offer one destination---JFK. If blame is to be apportioned, a great deal must go to anti-immunity trust regulators who time and time again have denied BA/AA the right to code share/interline on the scale the LH/UA, KL/NW and DL/AF are allowed and do.

Sad to see the route go. Come crunch time, LGW will be next for rationalisation. If the credit crisis hits the city hard LCY will see the wrath of Willie's chopper too.

Frightning really, as Willie is very liberal with his chopper (wonder more or less so than Nick Clegg??:E)...

p.s. LGW-JFK is scheduled to be operated on the 4 class 777, config 14F/48J/40W/124M. Should the yield not materialise (sooner), no doubt it
will be moved on the 3 class beast 40J/24W/215M...

[comet 4b623PW]

Typical British Airways suspends MAN-JFK just as the Bank of New York Mellon. announces a 50,000sq ft expansion in Manchester city centre.

[TURIN]

What planet are you on, there are no ba crew in man. Only the crew on a hated back to back thats not a back to back that operates via man and shuttle crew on a night stop.

Railgun, I imagine you are still bitter by the 'crew' closure.

However there is, funnily enough, more to an airline than 'crew'.

Specifically 'Engineers' of whom I happen to be one, of about 30-odd still left at MAN. One who at the moment is very worried about his job since this (unsuprising) announcement. :mad:

[Curious Pax]

The posts above say the route is profitable; a BA spokesperson quoted in the Manchester Evening News says not - someone's telling porkies!!

BA says it is stopping the daily service to JFK from November for `commercial reasons'. A spokesman said: "It's not a decision we have taken lightly. This has been a loss-making route for some time.

"We have tried everything we can to turn it around, but, unfortunately, this has not been possible."

Wonder what they tried to turn it round?

[BHX5DME]

British Airways is boosting services from London to New York JFK by starting
daily flights from Gatwick on Monday October 27, 2008.

The new flights mean that the airline will fly 62 times each week from the
capital to JFK as the Gatwick flights will operate in addition to 55 weekly
flights from Heathrow.

Lynne Embleton, British Airways’ general manager network planning, said:
“The new Gatwick service will give our customers even more choice when flying
between London and New York. Not only do we already have an extensive schedule
from Heathrow to both JFK and Newark but next year we will launch business-only
flights from London City.�

The new flights from Gatwick will operate on a four class Boeing 777, with
First, Club World, World Traveller Plus and World Traveller cabins, that will be
moved from Heathrow.

British Airways will also start new shorthaul routes from Gatwick this October
with daily services to Oporto and Valencia.

Second daily services from Gatwick to Alicante and Turin will also be added from
the end of October.

Flights to Warsaw will move from Gatwick to Heathrow in October.

British Airways is to suspend its daily flight from Manchester to New York JFK
in October and move the Boeing 767 aircraft that operates the service to
Heathrow.

[Homo Simpson]

So BA dump the route!
Virgin or BMI may consider it and if they did the product on board is so much better than BA anyway.
The void to JFK will not be there for long if at all.
Look at the CAA figures it tells you a lot of punters want the service.

[Muizenberg]

Unfortunately loads don't equal profit. IF the high yield revenue is not there, a full flight can operate at a loss. If an airline is constantly bumping passengers up a cabin to clear an oversale down the back this does not equate to profits.

The fact is there is not enough people prepared to pay a business class fare/premium economy fare ex-MAN (whether it's paid for personally or by the company) to warrant BA serving the market. As I previously said BA were always at a disadvantage as the US carriers have 100's of destinations to offer...BA had 1 NEW YORK ex MAN.

p.s. the BA product compares very favourably to BD or VS these days. BD charge for drinks down the back, and VS are stripping their service of every unique feature that once let themstand out from the pack...

[MUFC_fan]

Must say, I liked the BA service more than BD and on par with the VS service when up front.

I don't think we will see BD into JFK as I think UA mainly operate into EWR? Correct me if I am wrong. Anyway, have looked at fares for MAN-NYC from airlines on both sides of the Atlantic and BD come out trumps with MAN-ORD-EWR.

Would expect CO to react more than any carrier as VS and BD have still not got enough a/c (787/330 problems) and DL are busy with NW. CO are introducing more 739ERs onto their network which is freeing up more a/c such as 752 which could mean we could see MAN-EWR at three daily from next season?

Anyway, I wouldn't excpect any news soon.:{

[Railgun]

I know what you are going through, its like been in dead mans shoes. I went through it all between October 2006 and July 2007 after the sale of BACON to Flybe.

[Homo Simpson]

I realise that the CAA figures dont tell you whether the route is making a profit but it does show there are plenty of people wanting to fly to NYC. There are of course plenty that will be connecting on to other destinations within the USA.
As far as the product is concerned Upper Class is way better than Club and BMI Business (new) looks very good although not tried it. Thats where the money comes from and i am sure either of those two airlines could attract the top payers if they decided it was commercially viable to start NYC from Manchester.

[bplgaz]

People seem to forget there is no JFK void.
DL operate daily with a 757.
Might they be tempted to bring back the 767 now London Airways have spat the dummy out?

[ETOPS]

Just a footnote about BA's protestations about making a loss on the MAN -JFK route. We have been here before with the MAN-LAX route that operated for two summer seasons using a 767 in the late '90s. Although popular and well supported it was eventually binned as being unprofitable. As soon as that happened we went to 3 x daily out of LHR.
Enter a new accountant at BAR Manchester, who had the unenviable task of unravelling some creative "cross -subsidies" at BAR in an attempt to justify continuing or closing the bases. He was badly briefed by his boss and delved into the longhaul program without being asked to...........


Yes - you've guessed it :ok: The route turned out to have made a tiny profit of £250,000 which was hidden by loading costs and stripping revenue. The freight income being credited to LHR for instance.............

[Homo Simpson]

They should have the balls to just say we need the 767 down South as a replacement for the 777 that crashed. Manchester is an easy target and it finally gets them out of anywhere north of london. To say they have suspended the route is a lie. Its cancelled never to return. BA do well from pushing people through mostly Heathrow so let them get on with it. Virgin and BMI make flights work from here so it shows where BA have there priorities.

[MAN777]

For what its worth I for one, will never fly BA again and in general discussion with my friends and business colleagues neither will they, nor do they intend on using LHR.

EK, EY, SQ, BD, Virg, Flybe and Finnair ! get most of their business.

[mantug01]

Does anyone know which handling agent American Airlines are going to when RHS close ?

[Sir George Cayley]

I can remember BOAC 707s and VC10s flying the MAN - JFK route in the 1960's (via PIK) - NE 1 know how many years the service will have run continuously?

Sad news

Sir George Cayley

[Ex Cargo Clown]

It's no surprise that London Airways have stopped the JFK flight, but it's a complete shame.

I know for a fact that load factors have always been good on this flight, as has yield. Unfortunately, London have always "handicapped" this flight, charging BAR an extortionate price for the freight capacity and other such tactics to make it look like an unprofitable service, the opposite is however true.

God bless NWH and all who have flown on her.

[biddedout]

For the five years that the MAN JFK was on the BACX and BAConnect books, we were always told by the CEO that it was a good earner and it was partly responsble for keeping the whole regional operation chugging along. So someone is lying.

It made a profit, so why are BA now saying that it has always struggled and they couldn't turn it round.:ugh::ugh::yuk:

[Muizenberg]

Maybe the MAN-JFK did make a profit when fuel prices weren't over $100 a barrel, companies allowed most executive to travel in Club, there were a few connection ex-MAN.

For all those who are saying BA has turned it's back on MAN...apart from LH which other major European carrier operates longhaul from a city other than it's main hub?? Germany is twice as big as the UK, and Munich is a bonafide tourist/business destination with a huge industrial/tourist catchment area. Remember LH doesn't even operate from BER (Germany's capital) longhaul, as there is no high yield. AF only operates from CDG, KLM from AMS, LX is moving almost all longhaul to ZRH, AZ can't make up it's mind whether to concentrate on FCO or MXP/LIN...IB with it's massive network to Latin America fly none of it from BCN.

Only carriers in countries that are greatly than larger the UK, does one carrier operate longhaul from more than one city (e.g. QF, AC, SA, US carriers, Indian Carriers). The Japanese carriers who once upon a time thought KIX was an alternate to NRT have moved most longhaul operations back to NRT.

While this decision may look like BA is desserting it's final outpost in the regions, BA is not unique. Most major "flag" carriers prefer to concentrate on 1 hub city. I for 1 love Manchester, think it's a fab city, with all the cosmopolitan features of London without the attititude. However, it's not possible to escape the fact that London is the centre of Government, commerce and tourism for the UK. HIstoric ties or past performance are not reasons for BA to keep routes...MAN-JFK has fallen victim to the same fate as routes such as LHR-DTW, MEL, RUH/JED, etc...Willie's chopper has no time for emotion, he just wields it with cold, hard profit in the back of his head.

[crewmeal]

Good posts Muizinberg, but what annoys people is when management continually lie about facts. Walsh and his poodles have a habit of it. Damn it we have enough with the Govt, but aviation? what is the point of lying about facts. If the route is doing well and is a nice little earner etc(so Management say) why chop it? Is it really because of the price of oil? Is it because BA are an aircraft down at LHR because of the B777 incident? If they would come clean and give the real reason instead of 'operational b******s then we would have more faith in them.

Watch what happens in June when T4 movements move to T5. It will be interesting to see what they lie about that.

[ETOPS]

I think crewmeal has hit the nail on the head here. If BA had simply said " we are an aircraft down and have bigger fish to fry so we are taking your aircraft - sorry" most people would have understood. Still upset/angry but at least clear on the reasons. What we get are lies and spin...........

[Anna's Dad]

Reading this MAN-JFK element of the thread with interest. As a slight aside, is anyone able to give a very rough indication of what it actually costs an airline to operate a single rotation on this route, taking into account things like fuel, crew salaries etc? I realise there will be another whole lot of factors in the melting pot, like lease fees (if apropriate), insurance etc, so the question might be a bit 'silly', but at present I wouldn't even have the first idea. I am interested to learn more about this issue of load factors vs. yield.

Many thanks.

[TURIN]

It stopped making a profit when they closed the crew base and had to run the crew from LHR on a 'W' pattern through Newark/JFK. It has operated several times recently with no crew available and no pax. Cargo only. The IFE refuses to work half the time, and the support from LHR has been minimal. It was bound to happen sooner or later. It was 'set up to fail'. That's the BA Way. :yuk:

[MAN Guy]

Sadly I think the only real surprise here is that the JFK run lasted as long as it did. When I worked for them at T3 several years ago (pre Willie Walsh) the service was always dogged by rumours that Waterside weren't happy with it and it was up for the chop. Many thought it might go in the wake of September 11 but it just carried on majestically each and every day. I think the real death knell rang out with the Flybe deal, it was never going to last for long after they packed up everything else except shuttle routes at MAN.

It is hard not to get nostalgic about a service which has been operating for so long, but strategically BA just aren't interested in MAN anymore and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. It will be missed by many passengers both sides of the Atlantic and those who worked on the route over the years.

[bigmustard]

Just the shuttles to go now - can't imagine they will last too much longer. BA obviously don't rate them too highly either as they were the first to get cancelled after the T5 debacle. Plenty of jobs at Flybe for the engineers :)

[lexoncd]

If ever there was a case for lobbying Gordon Brown to require British Airways to now formally change their name to London Airways this is it.

The sooner they remove theri logo from T3 at MAN the better. They will never develop the regions not now not ever. No matter what they do with Open Skies, 787's or anything.....it won't happen.....

[Railgun]

The BA branding has been removed from the terminal for quite a while.

[FlyZB]

Always makes me laugh though how BA still perceive T3 to be their terminal. The once extravagant and exclusive building with their name glittering in neon lights is now over run by the likes of Flybe, bmibaby & easyjet. A sure sign of the times and a clear indication of those carriers who are willing to commit to Manchester and those who aren't.

The loss of JFK is no biggie. DL will probably upgrade the aircraft back to a 767 in time and there was even recent talk of a 3rd daily CO flight to EWR. Perhaps even chance for Jet2 to step in, as promised by many a loyal Jet2 fan over recent months. As for BA, very soon they'll be booted over to T1, with the 'luxury' of sharing desks with LH and LS at ground level check-in & their pitiful shuttles being dumped on remote, with the added pleasure of using the wonderful bussing gate 20! Can't wait :)

[viscount702]

During September when US are using a 752 it seems they are running a second 752 on days 1 2 5 6.

Also I think from next month the flight code is now carried to RDU and not LAX

Viscount

[daynehold]

Success depends on commitment. As far back as I can remember BA's attitude and that of its predecessors (BEA & BOAC) has been lacklustre towards Manchester possibly to the detriment of the Airport. Maybe one day Willie and his cohorts (including the UK government) will realise there is life outside London. In the meantime good riddance BA - may others succeed.:=

[crewmeal]

I remember years ago when the Rt Hon David Owen campaigned to keep the link between Plymouth and London alive when Brymon wanted to shut the route down due to unprofitability. He got his way, and I believe the link is still going to this day but with Air Southwest.

Perhaps we need an MP of sorts to campaign to keep the flag flying for the MAN - JFK route.

I sometimes feel the 'British' has gone out of aviation these days and as a nation Britain has nothing to offer the industry. Its all down to CO to represent the regional airports these days.

[45378]

It's hardly a surprise as the route has looked anomalous ever since the BACON sale.
The BA preferred business model has long been everything via LON.
Hence the BACON deal and now this.
But the flaw in their thinking is that whenever problems arise at LHR or LGW, the BA UK domestic connections are among the first to be dumped.
So as a punter based in the regions you can't help thinking - why on earth would I want to go via the hell-holes of LHR/LGW and all the uncertainty over whether I'll make the connection, and will my baggage make it ?
ATC delays often erode connection timescales, and with the added unease that if anything sneezes down South, bang goes the connecting flight anyway.
Applying that logic, AMS, BRU, CPH and FRA look a much better bet.
Looking at my travels over the last 2 - 3 years - both Co and personal, always starting from MAN, I guess < 5% have been with BA via LON. On the other hand, KL, SN, LH, SK, LX, US, CO, even AF have done well out of my travels.
There's a window of opportunity here for BD and Star Alliance if they go for it

[Higher Archie]

The T3 Check In is unrecognisable, from the 'glory days' in the the late 1990's. Then, what are now called Zones 1 & 2 were all BA, around 25-30 desks used by BA/AA. Yesterday, BMI / Baby used all of Zone 2, flybe and EZY, most of Zone 1, and BA shoved in the far corner with just 4 desks for their flights to London. It's the future.

[Skipness One Echo]

BA COULDN'T MAKE MONEY on their regional operations. SIMPLE AS THAT.
BRAL could, Brymon could, Loganair could, however due to the higher overheads of mainline BA, the flag carrier can't. So why the moan? Can you still fly from MAN-JFK? Yes.
BA is a business, they can make more with the B767 from LHR. The future of Manchester is LOCO.

[GLENO]

According to tonight's MEN The airport are already holding talks with other airlines about the route.......Goodbye BA....just the shuttles now.......they won't be missed!!:}

[Bagso]

Oh please Manchester lance this NOW !!!

Take the initiative here and kick them out early at a time of your choosing NOT BA.........what have you got to lose !

Blame slots, gate restrictions, runway capacity but for goodnes-sake make life hell for them.

It hasn't been done before and would generate headline news and at least give the locals an opportunity to mouth off about London Airways at it would inevitably generate headline news.

If BA want a 767 no problem, they can have it now 6 months early !

.....shame on the pre booked pax but oh how I would pay to see that !!!!!!!!!!

Sweet retribution for 30 years of shabby service,broken promises and as some of us recall multiple objections to every long haul airline that applied to serve Manchester in the 60s 70s and 80s.....stick that up your jet pipe Willie.

[wiccan]

Umpteen friends of mine who booked MAN-JKF were offered "very good deals" to fly from LHR...why?????
As an aside..many moons ago, BOAC were quoted as saying "Manchester will never sustain a daily Trans Atlantic Service"
bb

[aa0678]

.....have heard Zoom were sniffing around; a sign of the times I guess!

[One Sixty until 4.]

Happy to be corrected by Industry insiders, but I recall stories in the past that BA encouraged travel companies to siphon business travellers via LHR. This was done through payment of a higher commission than if the pax were booked onto BA's MAN originating routes with a subsequent transfer to the ultimate destination.

So with artifically reduced Business flyer loads on MAN based routes, the figures showed that the J class market is extremely limited in the Regions. It made the cessation of mainline routes that bit easier on the basis of yield.

BA has operated a business strategy of shifting the premium pax via its London hub (and fair play to them for creaing profits that way).This strategy was assisted by a lack of real competition. The European opposition had at most one or two flights per day to MAN, so the LHR connection was obviously preferable to making the trek to FRA or CDG and the return leg. BA had it all stitched up - and they objected to licence applications from other would-be operators even though BA had no intention of operating the route themselves.

But things change. Mainland operators now fly several times a day to MAN from the main Euro hubs providing the worldwide connections. The improvements in rail travel mean the domestic traveller is using Virgin trains to get to London. I expect the LHR shuttles to steadily lose pax - to the point that they also become uneconomical and BA axe them or reduce frequencies. BA could end up losing the bulk of the regional J class pax to the foreign competition.

We're realistic enough to know that MAN can't sustain routes to all corners of the globe, but to stealthily jettison those outside the M25 and to present yourself as the national airline just grates a bit.

:(

[bermudatriangle]

BA dumping the MAN/JFK just confirms the slide from grace that manchester has suffered over the past 2 years....just look at the airlines,routes and schedules on offer...just like liverpool but 30 miles down the road.very little business class traffic,plenty of cheap,no frills,bucket and spade passengers.nothing wrong with that,just a true reflection of the catchment area and the spend on air travel.ryanair expanding from it's MAN/DUB route,just the tip of the iceberg.are MAPLC offering preferential landing charges to FR in an attempt to encourage new routes ?? if so,how will the existing operators react? maybe like the previous subsidised route for continental when the airport offered to undewrite any losses,AA pulled the plug on the MAN/JFK straight away.tough times ahead for the regional airports,i believe BA's decision to cut and run on it's remaining longhaul route will not be the last.shame,but that's life !

[Railgun]

Your very bitter arnt you. TBH the future for manchester is now loco.

[Centre cities]

At the end of the day US airlines will always have the advantage over UK airlines of flights to the USA from the regions, it is a fact of life.

AA, CO and the rest can operate into their major hubs and secure traffic that is not point to point. This gives them an advantage as UK airlines including BA have no hub outside London to feed any traffic through.

Point to point on leisure routes to Vegas and Florida may be different.

Manchester is well cattered for by other airlines to the states and I am suprised that the BA flight lasted as long as it did.

Centre cities

[Facelookbovvered]

BA ain't what it used to be, the cabin crew can be amongst the most un friendly out there (apart from the 80+ years olds that SAS can't sack) try SIA and you'll see what i mean........i could get locked up for my thoughts!!

The money (real money) is to be made from LHR, BA is a private company and even told Greedy Gordon to take a hike this week (well a Titan) when he wanted a 777 for his suck up trip to Bush (special relationship my arse, i have more "special relationships" with my hand) Manchester has a great future with or without BA and i suspect that we will have them or their bastard child (Flybe) around for many years yet, in fact i reckon that 15% is the lowest that BA will go with Flybe and once all the pain is over it might well become Flyba an e to an a ani't far to go!!

[comet 4b623PW]

The fuss is because British Airways is still regarded as the national carrier of Britain, it may be not as much in this country as it used to be but for many people around the world it is the first British carrier they will think of.
Several times BA's management has promised investment in the primary cities of Manchester and Birmingham and these two airports have built facilities to accommodate BA. A319,s were ordered to strengthen the two hubs but these were hijacked by LHR to rectify a strategy which had gone wrong at Heathrow. Since then wrong equipment and poor business decisions and not enough time have lead to the present situation.
Yes Manchester and Birmingham have a smaller premium market to tap into but surely they are able to sustain a few long haul routes each especially if they were developed as mini hubs.
I am sure that if Lufthansa's board and management were running British Airways its route structure would look very different especially given the slot constrains at Heathrow.

[Skipness One Echo]

Any long haul routes outside London would undermine the business model which is built on feeding Heathrow. Were the A319s making money in the regions? No. They were moved into London and allowed European service to break even for the first time in ages. That's business.
The services are still all there, just run by carriers with more modern aircraft and cheaper fares. For premium services, it is still possible to use Air France, Lufthansa and KLM via THEIR hub airports. That's how it works.

As for a reality check, Air France are flying from London Heathrow to Los Angeles, do you see Lufthansa moving A340s into Manchester? No? Discuss!

[Richard Taylor]

Fortunately, more & more people are trying to avoid Deathrow these days, so maybe at some point in the future, Heathrow Airways may have to change its business model again? Too much feeding can give one indigestion.:uhoh:

[comet 4b623PW]

Skipness One Echo

BA, s A319 never got to be deployed on Manchester's european routes so no they obviously did not make any money or come to that loose any either. They are deployed on services to LHR and probably we will see them more to LGW in the coming months but do they actually make money in their own right.

I am not proposing Lufthansa operate A340,s through MAN, merely that a Lufthansa management team would have developed a two hub network based on different cities within the UK.

[BDLBOS]

I think the only way for MAN to be a hub is for an alliance, preferably Star, but Skyteam would be OK too. BA was never going to do anything in the regions, as there was too much good competition, so better to work on your monopoly, so the NY demise cannot surprise anyone. I only flew the route once, outbound from JFK G-Tech broke down, then they moved me to LHR and surprise, surprise - no bag (again). I always use DL/US/CO and when they did a good job through IAD BD.

BA will always be remembered as the Mr. promising in the regions, now I hope they enjoy all the growth potential which is in London (hee hee).

[Bagso]

Far from it ......just realistic.:=

I have no problem with BA at London, if only they would just get on with it down there and keep there nose out of MAN.

It's the pious lip service that they have paid to Manchester over 30 years dressed up in spin that sticks in the claw.

Clearly you havn't been around long enough to remember the objections they lodged against EVERY application to serve Manchester in the 70s 80s 90s, the main objection being that it would effect their posn as the national airline....and stuff the travelling public North of Birmingham.

Nobody will know whether expansion at that time would have cemented MANs position as a major long haul gateway or indeed whether this would have been sustained, but it would have been nice to at least have the opportunity.

Many on here also remember the continual spin about expansion in the future by BA and that they were always looking at new routes......complete and utter waffle !

They bought into Cathay and quickly fixed that service by leaning on CX who canx the daily flight based on lack of aircraft, that flight then resurfaced with an extra daily from LHR a few weeks later !!!

They got into bed with QANTAS and same thing happened !

Oh and what about IBERIA ...nearly forgot that one.

They are interesetd in one thing only and that is sucking total UK demand into LHR, no problem, fully understand that re cost of scale etc etc but please dont treat us as morons.

As I said good riddance !

[spannersatcx]

They bought into Cathay and quickly fixed that service by leaning on CX who canx the daily flight based on lack of aircraft, that flight then resurfaced with an extra daily from LHR a few weeks later !!!

Comlete and utter rubbish.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

OK, so BA's MAN-JFK route - the service which time forgot - is finally to be withdrawn. A disappointment certainly, but the end of the world? Perhaps not.

MAN has two daily services to EWR with COA and a daily service to JFK with DAL plus some fifth freedoms with PIA. There is every possibility that these could increase capacity if demand so warrants, and even if they don't the withdrawal of BA as a direct competitor will enhance the viability of the services which remain. Personally, I would now like to see Delta maintain a daily frequency on the route year-round; perhaps afew of us should e.mail them and ask if this will be their intention following the demise of BA. But whatever happens, Manchester has the New York route covered with upto three flights daily. With recession setting in that capacity may be ideal for sustainable operation at a profit in the medium term.

I shed few tears about the withdrawal of "Cockney Airways" from Manchester. Now they can give their full attention to serving those few British who were born within earshot of Bow Bells. Long may it sustain them! From a Manchester point of view, it has never upset me that BA failed to support MAN as they so often promised to do; their misleading rhetoric and false promises grated, but their ultimate business decision to commit only to the minimum I could live with. What really DID upset me was the ability BA had to strangle development at MAN by other carriers. They would object to applications by other carriers - even on routes which they did not themselves offer; they would suddenly 'occupy' routes where competition did arise (remember the L1011 schedule to HKG just after Cathay's original launch?). Remember how QANTAS pulled out of MAN - just after BA had bought a stake in them! Remember the 'Oneworld' saga which saw Iberia off MAN-MAD (Are BA still flying that one themselves by the way ; oh no, they're not are they?). They had politicians convinced that BA's interests and 'British Interests' were synonymous, and that direct scheduled services to the regions by foreign carriers were somehow not in the 'British Interest'. And worst of all, they had earlier generations of Manchester Airport management fearful to negotiate with rival airlines based on threats of withdrawal, or curtailment of future growth. Well, that happened anyway.

So there's a great big silver lining with all this. What leverage does BA have over Manchester now? ABSOLUTELY NONE ! Withdraw the Shuttle, eh? Well wouldn't that be a threat! MAplc can now approach any carrier it likes without fearing reprisals by any other carrier; no airline at MAN is now so dominant that it can use its ability to withdraw as a meaningful threat. MA can offer terms to whichever companies best serve the airport's future requirements, and hopefully the agenda of all concerned will be to make routes successful and profitable, rather than to occupy routes just enough to make them unattractive to others.

And what about we the customers? BA is now one airline amongst several offering nothing more than feed to its hub(s) [LHR and LGW]. But BA has a problem. Their painful reputation for canceling MAN Shuttles at the drop of a hat means that regular travelers no longer trust them. And the discredited Heathrow experience in particular is one that well-informed customers strive to avoid. How often do Lufthansa, KLM, SAS, Finnair, Turkish, Brussels Airlines, Emirates etc cancel flights ex-MAN to their own hubs? Very rarely, I can tell you. But BA? That is another story, and BA's propensity to cancel Shuttles goes back way beyond the latest sorry episode at T5. So as customers we have a logical choice ... to book with BA, or not.

In Summer 2006, I booked a cruise with Princess Cruises out of Fort Lauderdale. Princess said they organised inclusive flights and would contact me with details. They phoned back and said they intended to book me with BA routing MAN-LHR-MIA. I replied, "In that case, quote me for cruise only. I will arrange my own flights from Manchester." Surprised, they said that BA flights via LHR would be cheaper; "Not cheap enough!" I replied. But in the end I didn't need to arrange my own flights: Princess came back and booked me MAN-ORD-MIA with AAL. All I had to do was ask. Come the day of travel, a security scare had paralysed UK airports. BA had immediately cancelled all its Shuttles for the day. Their desk was beseiged by distraught passengers - some destined for the same cruise as myself. AAL55 departed late, but it did depart. ORD was chaotic, but a fantastic lady from AAL rebooked my party onto the last ORD-MIA flight of the day. Only two parties from MAN made it to the ship. Ourselves and one other couple. The gentleman told me he had refused to fly BA via Heathrow because they had let him down before; he and his wife had travelled aboard AAL55 also. All the other Manchester passengers missed the boat - literally. And I didn't meet many from EDI/GLA/BFS/NCL/ABZ.

And the moral of the story is that we all have a choice. As customers, we can reject travel itineraries with BA over LHR and insist on a more reliable option. It isn't difficult, and as I experienced in the episode above you may be very glad you did. Use your choices as a customer ... BA is one operator amongst many, and for MAN-originating passengers a rather unreliable one. Tell your friends that Delta and Continental offer MAN-NYC anyway, tell them that avoiding the LHR hub is easy (and rewarding) to do. Tell your tour operators and travel agents to quote you for ground content alone if they only offer you flights with BA via Heathrow. They will eventually get the message! Is it unpatriotic to avoid our "flag carrier"? No - it is they who have chosen to avoid offering service to us! My loyalty is to the carriers which provide a great service from Manchester and support our regional economy by so doing. You won't find me in the BA Shuttle "cancelled" queue at LHR watching mystified as the rival BMI flight to MAN is apparently able to taxi out on time ...

BA has made its choice to serve Greater London alone. Fine. Let them do so. We have so many - better - alternative choices up here. BA's game is to force us all like sheep through Heathrow; well hey BA, we don't have to play! Let's stop moaning about BA's service ... just don't use them! And educate your friends and colleagues to understand how irrelevant BA's operation has become to the UK regions; tell them about the alternative carriers they can book and the better journey they can expect to enjoy as a result. Tell your travel agents and tour operators that you will not accept an itinerary routed via LHR. Tell your employers' business travel department that BA no longer offers the services which your corporate requirements demand. Do it tomorrow.

CHEERS TO ALL. SHED.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Bagso -

Just a brief message to confirm that your posting had not appeared when I started work on mine. I did not intend to tread on your toes.

Cheers, SHED.

(Edited to remove the word "posting" which appeared twice.)

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Well said Shed, very well said.

BA are a complete and utter ****s, their ongoing destruction of regional air travel is nothing short of a national disgrace.

As for the 1503, BA for as long as I have known them have tried to discredit the service, it has always had high load factors, and good yield factors along with full freight loads (which BA "rented" out at ridiculously high rates to BAR to ensure that the route didn't look too profitable).

Thankfully through Star Alliance and Skyteam, Manchester still has fantastic global links through international hubs, and I would encourage everyone to tell friends, family, whoever they will listen to boycott BA and Oneworld due to their disgraceful dereliction of the regions.

BA are as shambolic a flag carrier as you will find.

[Matty TCA]

lets hope BD, CO, DL will take note and expand !!!

[sparkysam]

as the tv advert goes there is another way check out the fares to the usa and you will always find ba the dearest sparkysam

[FlyZB]

Excellent post Shed, couldn't have said it better myself. Don't forget also that BA dictated their own subsidary airline at MAN. GB were limited to the routes that they could offer because BA had a noose around their neck. I find it hard to believe that JFK & other routes in times gone by were making big losses, but if they were then they've contributed to it themselves by limiting their options at Manchester and forcing people to go via LHR wherever possible.

Bagso has a point with his earlier post. MAplc still pussyfoot around BA like they're the most important attribute to the airport. They still get everything they want and more from the airport, like they always have. Completely takes the p*ss. Hopefully not for much longer though. T3 will become LoCo soon. BA will asked to move to T1. Not much room over there at the minute and with them only needing a handful of desks, let's give them the darkest dingiest corner possible!

Time MA wised up and gave the time of day to those airlines who actually have an interest in operating from Manchester instead.

[Matty TCA]

I heard that T2 and T3 are going to be handling 20 mil !!! passengers a year by 2030.

T1 will initially hold around 11mil a year

That means the airport will handle around 51mil passenger a year by 2030.

[MUFC_fan]

If I recall correctly they want:

38 million pax by 2015
50 million pax by 2030?

Please correct me if I am wrong. Seem very ambitous figures. STN has similar expansion visions.

[MAN777]

Shed - Great post ! :D

[GLENO]

Here, Here! Shed, great post!:D:D

[Bagso]

Fantastic post shed......just didn't have the time to expand the detail as you did so.....it s/b up for a "post of the year".

Ps Nobody is suggesting that we keep services simply because they are dare I say it "regional", but let us have at least have the opportunity to compete on a level playing field !!!!!!

:ugh:

[Mr A Tis]

Yup, agree with shed.
The fact that the one line press release says the service is "suspended" is just to make sure One World partner American don't go sniffing around.
Time to move the Shuttles to T1, relinquish the Terraces lounge & get the old BA hanger back to full use.

[Momentary Lapse]

Oh dear, I have to compliment Shed again for a great post. This is getting to be a habit.

Re growth figures, weren't MA claiming 50m pax at 2015 at the R2 inquiry? A bit of slippage, eh?

[Facelookbovvered]

Heathrow is a dump best avoided, but why is it like that? to a large part it is down to location which makes growth difficult, does anyone believe it will have a third runway by 2015? so all it can do is take bigger and bigger aircraft to use the limited slot numbers available, so if you are BA then when things go wrong (and they will more often because it running at capacity 95% of the time) which flights do you cancel and you can't run them all? common sense says it has to be domestics the knock on cost of chopping international flights is just to much, so first off go MAN (travel with bmi as an option?) and so on. As you say it wouldn't happen at AMS CDG FRA because it wouldn't need to. I have operated into CDG probably 500+ times in the last 10 years and had to hold no more than a half a dozen times, with LHR i have not had to hold less 5 times.

Manchester got caught with the same Nimby's and ended up with one and half useable runways instead of two, the fact remains that in this country we avoid the making long term plans.

[parky747]

What would it roughly cost an airline to operate a MAN-JFK sector using a b767?

[ZULUBOY]

Why is everybody that opposes runway development/terminal expansion a "Nimby/tree-hugger" on this forum?

I'm sure if somebody proposed building a nuclear power station, 6 lane motorway at the end of your street then you wouldn't be too happy about it, however, if disruption involves aviation, then it seems that nobody should moan about it.

[Suzeman]

Bagso has a point with his earlier post. MAplc still pussyfoot around BA like they're the most important attribute to the airport. They still get everything they want and more from the airport, like they always have. Completely takes the p*ss. Hopefully not for much longer though.

Looks like the love affair between MA and BA is finally over :D- see the last para of this article (my underlining) from UK Airport News. This statement also appears in the Manchester Evening News. You wouldn't say something like this in public if you wanted to keep them onside.

As has been said they opposed just about every long haul application into MAN as they wanted to channel everything through LHR. And remember when they binned the Pakistan services ex MAN, they claimed in the press release that this would not hit the regions as pax could be accomodated on shuttles to London. So little regard for the pax there.

After a huge lobbying campaign, the civil servants eventually twigged on that the regions had a case for direct services and if they were by foreign carriers so be it. Regional access suddenly became easier. :ok:

I look forward to London Airways disappearing into the darkest recesses of T1 ASAP.:ooh:
Suzeman

-------------------------------------------------

20.04.08

Bosses at Manchester Airport are 'confident' that another airline will take up the New York route dropped by British Airways. They are already holding talks with other airlines about what it says is a 'lucrative' route.

BA announced on Friday that is to 'suspend' (axe) the daily flights to JFK airport - its last long-haul service from an airport outside London - in October. The plane used to operate the flights will be transferred to Heathorw, whilst a plane from Heathrow will move to Gatwick to allow the airline to launch a daily Gatwick - New York service.
An airport spokesman said: ‘It's a popular route with business and leisure passengers.’ Civil Aviation Authority figures show more than 413,000 people flew between Manchester and New York with airlines including BA last year.
BA said it stopped the service for 'commercial reasons'. A spokesman said: ‘It's not a decision we have taken lightly. This has been a loss-making route for some time.’

A spokesman for Manchester Airport said it had not been consulted by BA about the move and the airline had made no efforts to work with the airport to save the route. US airline Delta also flies between Manchester and JFK, whilst Continental flies from Manchester to Newark, New Jersey.

[BHX5DME]

Dont you just love the spin (MAN-Chicago !)


British Airways (BA) will suspend its daily flights from Manchester
to New York JFK in October because of increasingly poor performance
on the route.



It will move the Boeing 767 aircraft which operated it to Heathrow,
and switch a 777 to Gatwick to fly daily services from there to JFK
on 27 October.



This will boost the carrier's capacity from the capital to JFK to 62
flights a week, with 55 already going from Heathrow.



"Passenger yield was reduced and the route was no longer viable," a
BA spokesman told ABTN. "Increased competition is a factor, and there
were not the passenger numbers to sustain it."



The four-class 777 will offer First, Club World, World Traveller Plus
and World Traveller.



BA still has a daily service to Chicago from Manchester, and the
spokesman said there is "no question mark over it," although he said
the carrier constantly reviews routes.

BA general manager network planning Lynne Embleton said: "The new
Gatwick service will give our customers even more choice when flying
between London and New York.



"Not only do we already have an extensive schedule from Heathrow to
both JFK and Newark, but next year we will launch business-only
flights from London City."



Also in October, BA will start daily short-haul routes from Gatwick
to Oporto – Portugal's second largest city - and Valencia, Spain.
Second daily services to Alicante and Turin will be added from the
end of that month.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Just to break into the BA or not BA debate, MON are reintroducing flights to GIB from September, on Mon, Wed & Fri.:D

[FlyZB]

Fantastic news. Well done ZB, that is what a lot of people have wanted for a while now. Nice to see that there are some airlines committed to Manchester hey :ok:

[dollydaydream]

Have I missed something .....MAN to Chicago? BA daily? Since when?

[WincoDinco]

Have I missed something .....MAN to Chicago? BA daily? Since when?

Eh? How did you not hear about it? British Airways began it just over 2 years ago, by ending one of their popular long hauls out of Heathrow, and moved the 747-400 to Manchester. It night stops here and is the most punctual long haul flight that BA operates because its now the only one that doesn't originate at the worlds most congested, delay-ridden airports; Heated Throw and Gatwick.

Every passenger that gets off at Chicago is able to reclaim all of their bags - again, because its one of the only long haul flights that doesn't operate out of the worlds largest baggage storage facility.

The 747 it uses has got pretty good First Class and Business sections. If you book in advance, you can get a pretty awesome deal!

:};)

Good bye BA long haul ex MAN.

[FlyZB]

:} WincoDinco, nice post! I guess that they're actually referring to the AA flight which I believe BA codeshares on. As the original poster stated, clever way of twisting things.

[dollydaydream]

Thought that was too obvious:* What about the code share on the 1503?

[Bagso]

...and even the Manchester Evening News is slagging off BA....

...yep strange but true, it even mentions the numerous objections that BA filed against the numerous foreign airlines who had applied to serve MAN !

I need to go and have a lie down in a darkened room.

[BDLBOS]

"Passenger yield was reduced and the route was no longer viable," a
BA spokesman told ABTN. "Increased competition is a factor, and there
were not the passenger numbers to sustain it."

Brilliant, they continue to hold onto the "Stupid Comments from the Airline Industry" trophy for another month. I thought our airlines were a mess, but we can't touch BA.

[MUFC_fan]

I for one am a very patriotic man and feel BA are making this country a laughing stock!

World class terminal from the world hub - a magnificant building in a magnificant city operated by a bunch of people not able to run anything!

Yes, I understand that we all want rid of BAs messing around at MAN which I totally agree with but for the airline to cock up on numerous occasions the new announcement with all the crap with it really does show how much of a disgrace the carrier is to the UK.

When onboard the service is of the highest quality and the staff are superb. It really does have the prospect of being the world's leading carrier in many fronts but when those clowns are at the top, it is like a handicap on the airline.

We all want NCL, GLA, EDI, BFS, MAN, BRS to be BA long haul bases but it is never going to happen. I for one would love the major airports in the country to have non-stop flights by BA to destinations across the globe but it isn't going to happen. BA are focused on London, but the irony is that to fill their planes leaving London, cities such as Glasgow and Manchester need to supply the passengers!

I must say in their defence though that they do offer a superb service from their base once taken off. I flew on business last summer to the States and when I arrived I was asked how my journey was. My answer was 'Fantastic!' His reply was 'BA?' Outside of the aviation circle BA still hold a high class name which I think they deserve as their crew and the 000's of employees that work for them try their very hardests and the monkeys controlling them are the real problem.

I for one am glad to see the back of BA at MAN on the long haul front but if they were to return with real conviction (never going to happen) I would welcome them. For now, I am happy to use the foreign airlines and VS and BMI.

Good luck to all carriers at MAN and I hope non take the same route as BA have done. You can promise what you like, but you will only be liked if you live up to them. Sorry BA - grab your coat.

[Railgun]

Out of interest where do people think BMI, Virgin or Jet 2 would get a take off and landing slot into JFK from?

[42psi]

May I just point out that until the Bacon sell off to FlyBe the JFK service was actually a regional Bacon flight and not BA mainline.

It only became "mainline" as a result of the sell-off.


So BA didn't waste much time in chopping that once it was theirs!!

[Skipness One Echo]

It was only a recent BACON rasher, Previuosly it was mainline B767s, TriStars, B747, B707s and VC10s.

[Suzeman]

...and even the Manchester Evening News is slagging off BA....

...yep strange but true, it even mentions the numerous objections that BA filed against the numerous foreign airlines who had applied to serve MAN !



Bagso

Can you point me in the right direction for this comment please? I can't seem to find it in the MEN website and it would be very interesting to see exactly what had been written. This is, as you say, very unusual. And most welcome too.:D

Thanks

Suzeman

[chiglet]

Previuosly it was mainline B767s, TriStars, B747, B707s and VC10s

Correct....on a Multi-stage flight...
BHX-MAN-PIK-JFK......:O
I remember the Ads...."BRUMMM to New York :ok:
Bin the "Shuttles" too...slots could be used by more "adventurous" airlines
watpiktch

[parky747]

As BA have termed the service MAN-JFK as suspended, does this mean that they will retain the slot at MAN and JFK preventing another airline using it?

[ETOPS]

suspended

Just looked this up in the BA Corporate Dictionary - It is defined as "cancelled,binned, permanently withdrawn,terminated,chopped,removed forever and killed off"

So no.............it's gone :{

[dh dragon]

and before VC10 were the props Britannia and DC7C which routed LHR(North),a collection of tents on the north side ! MAN/PIK/YQX/JFK(Idlewild) daily and ALSO LHR/MAN/PIK/YUL

[Railgun]

I would guess the slot at JFK is not available as that will be used by BA for the LGW service. The man arrival and departure slot will probably still be available.

[viscount702]

Winter 08/09 has not yet been released.

There are however many flights in the booking engine.

First glance on what is there looks disappointing and seems to be a reduction on last year.

Viscount

[Suzeman]

As BA have termed the service MAN-JFK as suspended, does this mean that they will retain the slot at MAN and JFK preventing another airline using it?


European Slot Allocation regulations have a "use it or lose it" provision, so they cannot hang onto slots at MAN that they do not use. This provision is specifically designed to stop airlines hanging onto slots and not using them, thereby preventing other carriers from using them.

Suzeman

[roverman]

In the long history of BOAC/BA Manchester-New York the service was once suspended and then re-born. BA183/182 was flown by VC10s and 707s until 1981 when it was dropped. BA then dropped their last remaining Atlantic route from MAN (to Toronto) in March 1983. I remember the gloom that hung over MAN at that time - Laker had gone bust and we faced a future without a long-haul scheduled service. Just when all seemed lost a big red and brown Kangaroo leapt to the rescue. As BA bowed out Qantas arrived, heralding the most exciting era in MAN history -the 1980s/90s long-haul boom. BA had a change of heart and returned to the JFK route in Summer 1985 using KT (British Airtours) Tristars at a three-per-week frequency. From this inauspicious start the service grew to daily, using the newly acquired BCAL 747s on LGW-MAN-JFK, then DC10s and finally a dedicated daily B767 whch has run until now.

So you never know, although there's no doubt that airlines are less willing to fly marginal routes these days and I do fear that we have seen the last of BA international services from MAN. Until? - who knows what this notoriously cyclic industry may hold for the future. MAN is a wounded giant, but not dead, and beginning to re-develop into an airfield better than anything outside LHR for long haul and hub operations.

[UnderASouthernSky]

Sunday 25 May 2008AircraftICAO TypeAirline/OwnerType/OperatorFlight ID/ATCETAETDInformation-B744Qantas AirwaysQFA220:5022:30-

Does anyone have more info on this parrticular predicted movement, taken from the RR website?

[bplgaz]

BA press office confirmed to me yesterday JFK slot being used for LGW flight

[Bagso]

Hi Suzeman

I actually bought the paper so havnt checked the web.

I was over in hometown Monday and picked up a copy, it was by one of the opinion writers page 8 or 9 something like that, but like an editorial comment over 1 page..... but to be honest I do not get the MEN very much so not sure who it was.....!

He was suprisingly well informed and knew about blocked applications etc etc.

If you remind me FRI when I am back home I will check it out, I am currently working away til then.

[IB4138]

These articles are from MEN Online:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1045967_ba_cuts_new_york_service

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1046081_new_york_flights_will_take_off_again

[ToNeL]

Hi Bagso,

The Journalist is Ray King. I cannot see a link to the web version and have saved the article for a mate to read.

[FlyZB]

With regards to the ZB winter schedule, the reduction in frequency on some routes has come about as a direct result of new routes that were not available last winter and an increase in frequency on established routes from last winter. These are:

GIB - New route, operates 3 x weekly
LCA - New for winter, operates 3 x weekly
MJV - New for winter, operates 3 x weekly (didn't operate Nov, Dec or Jan during W07/08)
ACE - Increased to 4 x weekly up from 2 x weekly during W07/08
AGP - Increased to 12 x weekly up from 10 x weekly during W07/08
BCN - Increased to daily up from 6 x weekly during certain months W07/08

Decreases are as follows:

TFS - Reduced to 6 x weekly from daily during W07/08
ALC - Reduced to 6 x weekly from daily during W07/08
LEI - Reduced to 3 x weekly from 4 x weekly during W07/08
MAH - Will not operate. Reduced from 1 x weekly during W07/08

In line with W07/08, PMI & IBZ will not operate Nov 08 - Mar 09.
FAO remains 5 x weekly in line with W07/08.

[viscount702]

FlyZB

Thanks for the update.

AFAIK MAN not yet released and what is showing may not be final unless you have other information.

When I first looked certain destination were not showing and what was available seemed to suggest greater reductions than you have now reported.

Interestingly, the TFS on SAT, LEI on SAT and ALC on Weds showing now as sold out rather than no flight. Could these still be added.

Viscount

[IB4138]

MAN winter routes are released as I just booked AGP-MAN-AGP in December.

[FlyZB]

Well they haven't announced anything but as IB says, the routes are on sale. Strange, unless they were released prior to LTN, BHX & LGW but I don't recall hearing that. Maybe they're still tweaking the schedules and as a result have added frequencies over the past few weeks and will perhaps change the flights around again prior to releasing them.

I doubt that those flights are really sold out. That has happened to me once before on an AGP-MAN flight about two years ago. I booked it, it then showed full in the system and a week later they emailed me to say that the flight was no longer operating and I needed to choose an alternative. What is a little odd though is the fact that having been increased to 9 x weekly for the summer, TFS is reduced for winter. I would have thought there would be more winter demand to the Canaries and this is shown by the increase in ACE flights to 4 x weekly from October. 12 x weekly for AGP is also quite an ambitious winter programme especially for December and January. We shall see...

[viscount702]

If you remember they never announced the summer flights either. They released LTN,BHX and LGW but never said anything about MAN.

[IB4138]

The MAN ZB flights were not bookable at the beginning of the week.

By releasing now, they can pick up bookings before WW, EZY and LS reveal their programme.

[FlyZB]

Maybe the MAN routes are so popular that ZB don't need to advertise them!

They needn't worry about LS. They'll probably operate the usual poor excuse of 2 x weekly AGP etc. Think it'll be a very quiet winter as far as they're concerned. WW and certainly EZY may have the 1 or 2 things up their sleeves though.

[ACCMan]

MAG have put HUY up for sale. Cash in the bank for a possible BAA airport purchase maybe?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/7367258.stm

[Momentary Lapse]

Or storing cash for the lean times ahead - following Martin Lewis's advice and reducing debt :D

MAPLC bought HUY thinking it was the cool thing to do, then suddenly got the chance to buy EMA (getting BOH for free - lucky them) though they paid well over the odds for it thinking they'd spoil any other bidders' chances. Pity there weren't any. :uhoh:

Having bought those two, they realised that HUY was a bit embarrassing but had to be seen to hang onto it to save face. I'm surprised they've waited this long.

I wonder if they'll offer the former MAPLC employee and HUY's MD, Rob Goldsmith, a job within MAG, or will they leave him out in the cold?

[Higher Archie]

MD HUY, Rob Goldsmith, has already been appointed as MD BOH. He did his best to bring traffic to the airport, but in the face of the competition from Robin Hood and EMA, it was a massive task, especially in the loco world.

MAG bought HUY to appease John Prescott who was DPM at the time, and to bring political favour. That worked, but with no realistic future growth, time has sadly run out.

It's hardly likely that the returns from the sale of HUY will fund the purchase of LGW, maybe a few lawyers only!

Uncertain times for the good people who work at HUY, I hope all works out well for everyone's future, either in MAG or with a new operator.

[Mister Geezer]

Don't tell me you are all surprised at BA pulling the plug on the JFK route? They are nicknamed 'London Airways' for a reason! They have no desire to direct customers away from T5. As for the slot at MAN - they will probably put a extra LHR rotation in. Like what bmi have done recently!! ;)

[Mr A Tis]

Well, you saw the BA 777 that came a croper at LHR had only something like 138 pax from PEK. My mate has just been on LHR-ORD with BA on one of their 3 daily rotations, less than 80 pax on board-J class almost empty. So yes, far better BA keep all their ships down at LHR on all those lucrative routes down there.
Back to MAN, anyone any idea how much of a slump there will be to the "old" landside shops now that they are all airside ? Must be hundereds of landside staff now with no access to the likes of Boots ( all airside now) etc I know alot used Boots not just for sandwiches-but also presciptions as Boots collected prescription from surgeries too.
I guess Spar in T3 may have to open a second till !

[MUFC_fan]

To BA's defence, you have only picked out 2 flights there.

IF BA were only flying 80 pax on all three BOS flights they would surely reduce the route to 1x daily?

Alot of BA flights fill out, especially going East.

[mickyman]

BA's planes are full of people who hail from

all corners of the country but I have not seen

any guns being held to the travelling publics

collective 'heads' to make them travel with

them.

BA is not a national airline after all and it makes

good logistical business sense to funnel all

traffic through one departure point ie: London -

the epicenter of the country.The monopoly on slots

held by BA at Heathrow is another matter - long since

glossed over by the ruling liberal elite.

They are as keen as MOL on keeping a tight ship

which is what the shareholders want at the end of the

day.All hail to the shareholders for they are king!!

T5 was a bit of a shocker though and it might end up

that it wasnt BA's but BAA's fault - the damage has been

done to the brand and compensation will be millions if

proved to be - as well as BAA loosing one of its clutch

of airfields.

MM

[FlyZB]

Once the redevelopment of T1 Arrivals is complete (Mid June I think), there will be new landside shopping facilities down there. It's been a while since I have seen the plans but I believe there will be a Boots, larger WHSmith, Greggs bakery & a small food court located in the new arrivals shopping concourse. This was included in the arrivals redevelopment plan because prior to its inclusion, there were no planned facilities for landside staff or passengers on delayed flights and the airport (eventually) recognised that they needed to make previsions.

The same style of redevelopment will also occur in T2 Arrivals, albeit at a later date. I believe the plan for T2 will include a Boots & a 24-hour Spar in addition to the current WHSmith & food court.

[Mr A Tis]

According to the hoardings in T1 arrivals, it says the redevelopment of landside arrivals will be open in Spring 2009

In the meantime, there is Burger King & a pasty van. no Boots.

[Ringwayman]

BA's slot perecentage at LHR is, I believe, a lot less than the slot percentages for rival airlines at their hubs.

Regarding the JFK link, it's just a pity that now that a potential BA/AA joint venture is more likely to be given the go-ahead, they drop a route which could have benefited from closer co-operation.

[AircraftOperations]

Open Skies' "new" 757 is supposed to be at MAN during next week, possibly for training.

Talk about rubbing salt in the wounds.

[FlyZB]

I may be totally wrong but I think those hoardings are referring to the whole T1 development when it says complete by Spring 2009 ie - the brand new airside shopping concourse. The new security area opens on Monday but the new extended airside area will remain the same for this summer, with a few exceptions. However by next Spring, it will have been transformed with brand new shops, cafes, bars and restaurants. I'm sure that's what the completion date is on the hoardings. I had heard somewhere that the new shops in T1 Arrivals will be open by June but that may well have changed. It's been a good few months since I've seen the plans.

[Full_Service_SLF]

I put this on a T5 thread but it is just as relevant here.

I am based in Manchester and travel with one of the three alliances on a weekly basis at least. I am writing this because as I got T5'ed last night after several incident free (but at times comedy) trips through BAA's new greenhouse. I got stuck in an automated check-in nightmare and missed the last flight. It was a pain but BA put me on a BMI alternative without any drama. I was in Paris recently and my flight went tech. Air France found another plane and we got in 90 minutes late - a great performance.

I have a list of delays, cancellations and nightmares (Moscow once took 24 hours with KLM via AMS and CDG) for all the carriers. My conclusion - living in a region sucks and this will get worse as MAN goes loco.

[mantug01]

Finally a Greggs bakery!! I'm fed up of healthly food from Boots. LBA and NCL have had a Greggs for a while.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

MM = BA Spin Doctor

BA had no need to drop the JFK.

[bermudatriangle]

does the ryanair expansion at MAN define the future? MAN as a low cost base,if so maybe the multi storey car park at liverpools john lennon will be pretty empty.many of liverpools punters hail from the manchester catchment area and there is only so much business to go around.a comprehensive ryanair route scedule from manchester will devastate the scouse operation,that is if muirhead and his cronies offer a cheap enough deal to encourage the expansion.

[diesel862]

Just received the following regarding EGCC Manchester: -

2ND POWER OUTAGE AT MAN

TERMINAL ONE AND THREE NO POWER WHATSOEVER

TERMINAL TWO - EMERGENCY POWER ONLY

-NO CHECK IN AVAL
-NO AIRBRIDGES AVAL

SOME PHONES OUT OF USE

SOME RUNWAY AND TAXIWAY LIGHTS UNSERVISABLE

TOWER HAS LOST 1 RADAR.

Lets hope that it can be fixed prior to daylight.

[boaclhryul]

Manchester Evening News: "...a flood in a plant room in one of the airport’s office buildings...".

That'll teach 'em to go green. Wonder what they were growing hydroponically...?

[diesel862]

2nd Power Outage At Man ..... Update

Terminal One And Three:

Some Power In Certain Areas Airside

Terminal Two:

Most Systems Working. Some Problems With Bag Belts

Fuel Farm:

No Fuel Aval From Fuel Farm To Whole Airport

[Mister Geezer]

Check - in by candlelight anyone? :}

[diesel862]

2nd Power Outage At Man ..... Update

Terminal One And Three:

All Power Systems Ok.

Baggage Processing System Not Avilable. Contingency Plans In Place

To Process Bags To Aircraft - Some Delays Expected During Peak Times

Terminal Two:

All Systems Ruuning As Normal

Fuel Farm:

Systems Running As Normal

Cargo Terminal And Off Airport Offices Incl Clc

All Systems Running As Normal

[west lakes]

a flood in a plant room in one of the airport’s office buildings...".

Er sorry no - that was the last fault some months ago.

This morning's fault was a cable failure somewhere in the vicinity of the fuel farm, West Cargo apron still affected, rest of site fully on supply.

[mickyman]

EX Cargo Clown

You are indeed a CLOWN.

MM

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

bermudatriangle and All,

Expansion on a significant scale at MAN by Ryanair is not assured. The four routes launched in April - whilst very welcome - amount to just twelve departures per week. At the time, Ryanair stated that a further four routes ex-MAN would follow with a launch date of June 2008, and four more routes beyond that for next Winter. However, there has been no sniff of an announcement regarding new routes since that initial press release. If they intend to launch new routes in June they really need to be placing them on sale right now. Another possible explanation is that they have quietly shelved plans for the four new routes in June and hope that everybody has forgotten about them. You may recall that the original press-release did seem like a rushed-job in response to Easyjet's big announcement the previous day.

Now I hope that I am wrong and that Ryanair do indeed announce those four new routes for June launch. But if they do not, what does that imply for those services promised next Winter and beyond? Perhaps it is premature to assume that Ryanair has big plans for MAN; they have committed themselves to a major base at BHX since the original MAN announcement, and generally tough market conditions (notably fuel costs) have led to RYR suggesting that they will ground 20 aircraft for Winter 2008/9. Even Ryanair must respond to the harsh realities of economic slowdown. One is forced to wonder whether - under these conditions - the company view expansion at MAN with quite the same enthusiasm that we contributors to this thread do.

Some observant readers may have noticed a significant snippet of information in the Thomsonfly thread. Fleet distribution plans for the merged TOM/FCA airline call for a reduction of FIVE based aircraft at MAN for Summer 2009. Just stop for a moment and consider the impact of this single news item; its not a headline-grabber like the BA JFK decision but it is massively more significant. This substantial setback alone outweighs all commitments to MAN offered by Easyjet's proposal to eventually base five (smaller) aircraft at MAN themselves. Ryanair's existing programme does not come close to offsetting cutbacks by the combined MyTravel/Thomas Cook operation, cutbacks by XL, Astraeus etc, and the disappearance of Flyjet and British Jet. We are looking at lean times going forward and will be best served by being realistic about that.

The idea that Ryanair and Easyjet will save the day by committing vast resources to an enhanced MAN operation in the future is an attractive dream to many. But it may be unwise to presume that significant additional expansion from them will actually transpire in the medium term. And we must be prepared for the possibility that some carriers already serving MAN will not emerge from the other side of this coming recession. I write this on the day that EOS failed; not a MAN operator I know, but another symptom of difficult times ahead. Think not to service expansion; think to service retention!

Best to All. SHED.

[MUFC_fan]

I agree with you Shed-on-a-pole.

MAN should not expect the major expansion but I do feel that the way MOL will play it is by going head into the recession. Sort of a 'come and get me' statement. He will not be grounding 20 planes this winter as explained on another post. There won't be planes sat on the ground for 5 months while we wait for the summer season to start! It means it is the equivalent of 20 planes meaning the a/c will do less sectors per day. Yes they will spend more time on the ground, maybe operating an operation similar to an airline that treats the planes well and doesn't crank up the hours on it's plane's engines (not that I am saying that is a bad thing - works for FR!)

I do believe that FR will grow in the MAN market and they can't afford not to. MAN is going to become a U2 playground if the recession takes hold on the likes of WW and LS and the only way for FR to combat that is to expand at the airport, which to be perfectly honest, I see happening within the 12 months. I'm not expecting a BHX style expansion yet, but I would be surprised if FR were to avoid MAN if one of the other locos was going to joing EOS, MaxJet, ATA etc. in the graveyard.

[G-STAW]

MAN has lost serveral power systems all over the airport, it has affected airfield ops as well, including lighting....

keep updated in the following thread...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=324514


scott

[lexxity]

Again! This is the second power outage in a week! Bloody crap is what it is.

[Scottie Dog]

G-STAW

Having read the start of the original post that you link to I see that the event actually happened at around 0200 this morning.

Your post makes it read as if the airport had just suffered another loss of power!!

Might be best just to leave the old thread to be discussed..........

[WincoDinco]

The newly painted BA Openskies 757 has just been spotted on final at Manchester. She's not a bad looker.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

WincoDinco The newly painted BA Openskies 757 has just been spotted on final at Manchester. She's not a bad looker.

Nothing more than an old tart in new clothes :}

As an aside thought, with the BA mass withdrawal of themselves and in-house handling from anything beyond the M25, how does that position them for the odd occassion they need to mass divert? Will it now be the case of "any port in a storm?"

Stoney

[Mr A Tis]

These days for a BA div , Stansted, Gatwick, Luton, Cardiff come way before Birmingham & God forbid at a push Manchester. How things have changed over the years.

[spacedog]

Easyjet have announced the start of a service to Alicante from winter 2008. Do not know the frequency yet.

[tigermike]

starts on 29 September 4 days per week (Mon,Wed,Fri,Sun)

[viscount702]

To do ALC they are dropping the MLA down to three a week. So nothing yet by way of expansion.

[Jet A1]

The EZY second aircraft arrives tomorrow night and confirmed to stay in situ over winter so expect new routes for Winter 08/09...New A319's for Summer 09

[Vuelo]

Still only 2 a/c based at MAN for EZY though.

[1545]

In today's financial climate we should be pleased to get half an aircraft!

[GavinC]

lots of movements expected for the Champions league final now that United are through. should up the may pax figures and with the UEFA cup final in Manchester as well and Liverpool possibly goin to Moscow, going to be a busy time.

[MancRy]

MLA was always going to operate thrice weekly in the Winter. No decision as yet as to whether a 3rd aircraft will be based at MAN in the Winter although I would have to edge with caution and say next March. No decision also on the long PFO/TFS routes. The axe of these, especially PFO, would allow expansion through shorter sectors whilst still using two aircraft.

Anyone doubting U2's expansion plans however, should take a look at the new crew room. This is over twice the size of GT's whilst the old GT crew room is made into a crew rest area and the training room made into a multitude of offices.

[Bucephalus]

Think you'll find that as in previous years majority of liverpool fans will be ferried though LPL on charters not MAN if of course Liverpoolfc get through. Don't think the police would appreciate LFC and MUFC sharing the same airport!

[MancRy]

Inevitably however, like in 2005 and 2007, fans will go via where ever it necessary. So if they use LH via FRA/MUC or KL via AMS etc then you will see some LFC fans at MAN. It will be interesting anyway.

[MUFC_fan]

As you can probably guess I will be off to the Russian capital next month and I was there last night. A truly memorable experience! Having been a season ticket holder for many years it was one of the best atmospheres I have experienced!

I will be travelling from MAN but not with the mass charters! I wonder what BD will do to stop them flying to Moscow from MAN - they have the rights!:ok:

Just looking for flights now and I don't think my bank manager will be very happy!:ok::eek:

[sparkysam]

where have all the polish flights gone is anybody going to fly these routes. As for tonight come on liverpool

[TSR2]

Don't forget your Visa if you are not travelling with the masses.

[MUFC_fan]

Thanks TSR2!:ok:

Like I could forget it with all the press on the news! Posted it this morning to avoid the scousers posting theirs tomorrow!:ok:

[MAN Guy]

Sparkysam - the Polish routes were abruptly stopped by Centralwings as they are in real trouble at the moment and took drastic measures just in order to stay alive. They were the only carrier offering Polish routes from MAN when they cancelled them all. For what its worth I think other European routes were scrapped by them at the same time too.

Not sure if any of the routes will get taken up in a hurry due to current difficulties carriers are experiencing and the fact that lots of Polish workers are heading home to Poland to rebuild their lives there..... but we shall see in time.

[JonF]

I will be travelling from MAN but not with the mass charters! I wonder what BD will do to stop them flying to Moscow from MAN - they have the rights


As a MAN U fan wouldn't it be more convenient for you to fly from Heathrow or Gatwick, there much closer to where most of their fan's live?:ok:

[roy2711]

schedule flts maybe charters no
bmi have no say in what charters op man-mow:)

[MUFC_fan]

Ahhh JonF,

I could go on all night about how wrong your post is but it would bore me and you as much as watching chelsea!:ok:

No wonder all the Londoners prefer the team at the Theatre of Dreams, they play exciting football!:ok:

Anyway, I'm all booked and ready for my date with destiny! Lets hope the team come back from Russia with love and a big trophy to go with it!:ok:

Can't wait to see all those a/c lined up in MAN and MOW! Anybody got any info yet on what will be flying? Guessing Corsair will be in with their 747s as per usual. GSM, AEU, EXS, BMI and MON will surely be involved.

Personally I would love to have travelled on the charter a/c as the atmosphere onboard is superb and the service by the GB airlines is top notch! But I found a cheaper deal and I can stay in the city for three nights!

What a month ahead! I hope everyone's goes as well as mine is planned!

[MAN777]

MUFC Fan

Well done in getting a flight and accommodation,

I have heard some horror stories from friends and the travel trade about the ensuing chaos at Moscow.

No Hotels

No Airport - Stadium transfers

Doubts over Visa applications being accepted without beds

Flights costing £1000

Match tickets costing up to £5000 on ebay !!!!!!!

Why bother I ask, I think it will be my local with a couple of pints of shandy !!!

[Ian Brooks]

Is Man U not arranging their own package through an agent?
I used to work for an Travel agent which organised all the coaches/ flights for
the last time admittedly it was only Rotterdam but there were still about
11/12 flights,but as agent we sorted hotels/coaches flights and liased with the organisations to make sure it all ran smoothly and we also had couriers
on each coach/plane to look after each individually.
I WOULD RECOMEND that anyone travelling goes on an organised tour
otherwise there are many ways to get fleeced or stuffed if all your paperwork isn`t correct

Ian

[Code 100]

As well as the Zenit St. Petersburg supporters, we should see an array of aircraft from the rest of Europe, fetching UEFA 'VIP's' and other freeloaders who have nothing to do with either side. Wonder if anybody will fly from glasgow?

[JonF]

Ahhh JonF,

I could go on all night about how wrong your post is but it would bore me and you as much as watching chelsea!


Sorry about that dig!! As a LFC fan i was slightly depressed after wednesday night. As I said to my work colleague I'd rather be beaten by Chelsea in Semis than Utd in final.

Now i can watch final stress free:ok::ok:

Just hope you beat Chelsea!!

Enjoy your trip

[Suzeman]

Perhaps overlooked in all the "noise" of the discussion on footie flights - or should that be no footie flights - was this piece in UK Airport News.

Anyone got any good news about MAN?

Suzeman


28.04.08
The three US airlines flying between Manchester Airport and New York - Continental, American Airlines and Delta - have no plans to increase capacity when BA ends its daily service in October, Crain’s reports.

BA announced ten days ago that a lack of premium passengers and poor yields made the route unprofitable. However, aviation analyst Richard Leigh from RDC aviation blamed a price war for the demise of the service.

He said: ‘In the last couple of years, Continental added an extra daily flight to New York from Manchester and Delta arrived with a daily JFK service using a reasonably large B767-400 aircraft. Airlines had to lower prices to stimulate demand and steal market share. The route became pretty competitive.’

Manchester Airport says it is in negotiations with unnamed airlines to fill BA's slots on the transatlantic route but United Airlines, bmi and Virgin Atlantic all told Crain's that they had no plans to launch flights on a route BA could not make work.

[SWBKCB]

Not sure whether this counts as good news or not?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7381323.stm

[Aksai Oiler]

SWBKCB

A wicked thought; does this mean that if the Manchester Airports Group is successful at buying Gatwick it will rename itslef to the Gatwick Airports Group and dump Manchester just like BA ?

:}

[Momentary Lapse]

It's enough to make you GAG... (think about it...)

Why does that make me think of both failed bulimic John Prescott, and Geoff Muirhead, at the same time?

[OltonPete]

Reported on another forum

quote

"1,568,076 down 6% (or 100,000 pax)"

End of quote


Was 6% down expected?
Pete

[Ringwayman]

Dunno, but might be tied in with Easter falling earlier this year? In 2007 it was mid-April. Biggest faller is charter pax (down 12% or abut 58,000) if private pax are excluded.

There was also a 5.8% fall in movements to go with the 6% fall in passengers.

[45378]

SWBKCB

I heard Muirhead on the radio and my heart sank.
They can't do a decent job of running MAN - the only thing they seem to enjoy doing is building more shops, while other facilities get worse and worse and routes disappear.
What on earth makes them think they can sort out LGW? Where will they get the money from - the local authority owners of MAN ? - I doubt it, or from the market ? - but won't that count as public borrowing and give the Chancellor kittens?
Just get a grip of MAN, Mr Muirhead and leave empire building to others.

[Ringwayman]

Isn't the point of getting more shops built is that they can reduce various charges levied to the airlines which should lead to fewer routes disappearing as over and above the "lost" revenue from the airlines can be made from the shops?

[G-STAW]

Hi guys,

What a day....

Was anyone getting new security passes form the office today?omg! i was waiting with some new ramp agents for about 2 hours, absolutely rediculous!

Does anyone else think the new security in T2 departures isntt going to be finished for summer?there still looks alot of work to do....

Also i learned today that the airport nearly lost its license last year due to the state of the taxiways, the CAA gave the arport 12 months to sort them out....

G-STAW

[chrism20]

12 months is a long, long time and is nowhere near to nearly!

[Adola69]

I buy ticket to use Big Silver Bird.
I turn up at Airport 2 hrs before Big Silver Bird leaps to Sky.
I cannot get to kerbside at Big Silver bird sanctuary.
I can only take two small bags with me.
I no need shopping I bring things with me.
I get these things taken off me by damm colonial Hitler type person.
They steal my things and put in big red bin that has Ebay on side.
I queue for 30 mins plus and I have ticket checked again.
I get beaten with beams of electro-magnetic waves.
I have to take off shoes and belt to trousers.
I cannot take my tie-pin through.
I get passport checked many many times.:{
I wait and finally I get on Silver bird.
We fly to heaven and back.:bored:

I but ticket to use red Virgin train
I turn up two minutes before big Virgin train leaps down track.
I arrive alongside station entrance.
I bring as many bags as I wish to, of any size.
I need no shopping I bring things with me.
I get on & Train departs - how joyous am I.:O

Am I in more danger on big red virgin train?:confused:
No:D

[mickyman]

Adola69

It reads as though you are a complete idiot is that
how you intended it?

mm

[andybsei]

I think Mr Muirhead has more pressing things on his mind today.
Just had news that AA is dropping to 5 per week to ORD for the winter season.
More doom and gloom

AA55 MAN-ORD will not operate on Tue or Thu from 26Oct 08 - 06Apr 09
AA54 ORD-MAN will not operate on Mon or Wed from 26Oct 08 - 06Apr 09

With BA cosying up to AA and CO, is this a sign of the times?

[brian_dromey]

I passed through T1 departures last weekend. This is a great facility. Loads of room for queues to form, although none did while I was there despite only 3 of the 12 lanes being open. I was through in less than 2 minutes, it was an absolute pleasure.
The new duty-free shop is very impressive too, its massive, well stocked and well desgned, although if you were in a rush to get to a far flung gate it might be a pain. This is the reality of airports in this day and age, at least the space is pleasant and funky to pass though. The food court is impressive too. Im a bit miffed as to weither WHSmith needs 3 airside retail outlets or not though....perhaps the area with the small shop and the former Alpha retail area will be removed so we can see out the windows again and there may be some seating areas!

People bitch and moan about "shopping centers with departure gates" but then they also moan at airports like CDG t1 and the likes of HHN, etc where they are in "cattle sheds with planes, WE HAD NOTHING TO DO"

Well done MAG, T1 will look sensational when complete.

Brian.

[cheshirerooms]

Great to hear a review of the current changes in T1. Sounds a lot better than before.

I travelled through T2 about 2 weeks ago, and found the security procedures to be similar. It was during the morning rush - and still we were through in less than 5 minutes. Everyone we came into contact with was polite and efficient. Couldn't really ask for more? I am sure the changes in T2 will make this even better.

We checked in on a cuss machine upstairs (which I was suprised we could as it was an XLA charter) and proceeded downstairs to drop our bags off. Again - this was done very quickly.

We actually spent more time waiting to get served in the cafe than we did for either check in or security!

Overall - the Manchester airport experience was excellent. I hadn't used the place in ages - as I usually fly for peanuts from LPL....

The only thing I could moan about - so I will! - was the broken down escalators and walkways - all the way from T2 to the platform level at the station. This surely is a simple thing to fix! Its not as if they can't have had complaints..... They have been like this for years! :sad:

[G-STAW]

Singapore A380 is coming into MAN next month....


that is from a very good source.....

G-STAW