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Manchester-3

Old 1st Apr 2023, 19:30
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Originally Posted by azz767
Although there are new stands I believe there has been a loss of wide body capable contact stands at T2 with only 8 now, remembering that the LS 757ís canít use the far side of the new A pier.

Also the terminal split, is different. In 2019 LS and TCX were in T1. EUK has replaced the loss of the two VS. That means any new entrant, particularly to the US may have to park remote, which the likes of US, DL probably wouldnít want to do. I also believe they both used T2 in the past so wouldnít want to use T1 or Ryanair HQ (T3) if they returned. There is already a massive amount of towing too/from remote stands early morning.

At T2 this summer you could have up to 4 TUI 787ís and 2 767ís, 4 VS, QR, EY, CX, 2 SQ, 2 EUK, 3 EXS A330ís plus EXS 757ís all who can only use 8 contact stands in T2. Surely that 2nd pier needs to be built before much more morning heavies come in?
I mean .. perhaps a deal with EXS could be reached for 24/25 to move their widebodies back to T1?
As for US carriers, AA were T3, DL were T1 & only UA were T2. I think United will initially use the 757 on EWR-MAN, so it doesn't matter for them I think.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 19:42
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Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.

EUK has replaced the loss of the two VS.
Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.

Nailed it, simples.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 19:45
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Is Manchester properly staffed for the summer?
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 19:54
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.



Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.



May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?
I was referring to EUK in terms of T2 gate space, but yes agreed, capacity wise I get that TCX havenít been replaced.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 20:18
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Last I heard delivery of EIís first XLRs has been delayed until late next year, so if true they wonít be a factor in MAN expansion until S25.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 21:11
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.
They went bust so it's fair to ask if this high volume / low cost traffic would be picked up by anyone else currently in market. This may remain the case until Norse Atlantic have a go.

btw I make the high point of Virgin Atlantic as Summer 2019 with 35 flights per week with up to 6 aircraft rotations :
VS074 MCO x 2
VS076 MCO x 7
VS078 BGI x 2
VS086 LAS x 4
VS110 ATL x 7
VS122 BOS x 3
VS128 JFK x 7
VS182 LAX x 3 (replaced SFO)

With ISB and UVF both having been tried and dropped historically.
This winter only saw 3 based frames with 21 flights to ATL/JFK/MCO and BGI.
There are 5 more A350s and 11 more A339s to come but I am not 100% sure how many of the A333s are going back at end of lease so not all net growth.

Last edited by Skipness One Foxtrot; 1st Apr 2023 at 21:23.
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Old 1st Apr 2023, 22:38
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Is Manchester properly staffed for the summer?
It's not properly staffed. Full stop. 😁
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 00:53
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What percentage of the staff compliment required do you believe to be in place? Is the shortfall you reference in handling agency roles specifically, or across airport departments generally? What initiatives are underway to make up the deficit?
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 01:03
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They went bust so it's fair to ask if this high volume / low cost traffic would be picked up by anyone else currently in market.
Not in the near term. We'll likely have to be patient on that. Though just to be clear, Thomas Cook was taken down by the insurmountable historic debt obligations of the wider group. The MAN Transatlantic operation was successful and in profit. In the pre-covid era, both Virgin Atlantic and FOSUN expressed interest in stepping in. Those doors have closed now.
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 05:01
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
What percentage of the staff compliment required do you believe to be in place? Is the shortfall you reference in handling agency roles specifically, or across airport departments generally? What initiatives are underway to make up the deficit?
I think I'd want to know the answer to these questions before deciding where to place my expensive assett.
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 10:30
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Originally Posted by laviation
If we're talking a reasonable plan for VS at MAN:

Currently - 3x A333 and 1x A350 based. Current destinations include BGI, MCO, JFK and ATL. ISB terminated after S23.
Atlanta is a complete mess. 7x weekly was planned in the ACL S23 report, however this route is ditched for 8 weeks starting soon, because of 'piloting issues'. Delta need to take this route and fast, before VS ditch it completely. In a dream world Delta would take on the route beginning in June, give or take a few weeks, with a 767 or A330, although I think W23/S24 is more likely for this. Immediately this frees up an aircraft.

Virgin are taking on 17 A330neos. They have just received their 4th, VEII, a couple of days ago. VS have 10 A330-300s as of now. 3 are based at MAN. Once they get enough A330neos, it makes good sense to send 3 or 4 of these older 330s to Manchester, instead of scrapping them off. These aircraft are only around 10-12 years old.

So, what could be done with a 7 or 8 strong hub of A330 at MAN?
Virgin had 6 aircraft at Manchester pre-covid. Routes missing from that time are seasonal LAS and LAX. They would be reinstated immediately. 5x weekly each for the summer and 3-4 weekly in the winter seems right, which takes up roughly 1 and a half units.
Delhi and Mumbai were planned for 2020. These are very logical additions from a Skyteam point of view. Star Alliance Air India will start this route very soon. 5 a week to both destinations, year round, will fill every time. A mix of VFR customers from the catchment area, and even some VFR from the US could connect JFK-MAN-DEL.. This once again takes up roughly an aircraft and a half, so this leaves one more.

That is all pre-covid operated & planned routes covered. We still have an unfilled aircraft, so where could it fly?
Islamabad: Meh. Virgin will not operate to Pakistan even from LHR after this summer.
Austin, Texas: Really out there, but would actually do really well in my opinion. In recent years I have noticed quite a lot of Brits moving to Texas. Furthermore, Singapore's IAH route does quite well being a large A350 from a regional UK city to Texas. Austin is a very nice upcoming city, specifically in the tech sector. 2-4 per week and could pair up with another route.
San Francisco: A TCX route left unserved. It did well for them, why wouldn't it now?
Boston: Most likely out of any listed here, however it won't be on Virgin imho. A daily Delta 757 (as planned for Summer 2020) think will come 2024 to combat EIUK.
Montego Bay / Punta Cana: I feel as if one of these would be nice to pair SFO/AUS on this final aircraft. I flew with TCX to PUJ a few years before their demise and it was rammed full.

Overall, a dream scenario for VS at Manchester would be to see one of the T2 piers chock a block with their A330s, almost as if you couldn't tell the difference to being at LHR T3 lol.
The A333 leases were largely taken on because of 787 delays and compensation. The bonds sureties and contracts may well only allow single short extension of months with a mass of caveats and balloon fees.

Extension and or outright purchase will be completely and financially reckless to the bottom line. As leases expire and the 339 fleet gradually come online they will begin to leave the fleet for new lives or a period of retirement.

A ten year plus 2 extension places the time frame for withdrawals to start this coming winter and through to spring 2025 and in no coincidence with the 338 deliveries.

Caveat two are technically operated by Virgin International on Caribbean routes from Heathrow .

As said earlier I am currently very disappointed with Virgin Atlantic ( we know they survived financial melt down by a skin of their teeth and a bucket load of money from Atlanta) they remain unsure about their future direction of travel.

They lost the boutique selling points some years back, they backfill for Delta ( poorly imho) , whilst the Mouseland ops generate the daily revenues for the group .
Without valuable cruise traffic most of the Islands wouldn’t be viable either

Beyond that they are pretty small fry in the global market.

I think I have stated my opinion above ; opportunities from Manchester are now limited and the “temporary” suspension of Atlanta just further highlights my concern.

Ultimately I agree that Delta would be far better recovering Atlanta on own metals; the 764 is perfectly suited as well as for any potential Boston service in the mid term.

All that said Edinburgh and VisitScotland have taken the baton firmly away from MAG for the foreseeable.

Last edited by Rutan16; 2nd Apr 2023 at 14:37.
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 13:07
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Originally Posted by laviation
I mean .. perhaps a deal with EXS could be reached for 24/25 to move their widebodies back to T1?
As for US carriers, AA were T3, DL were T1 & only UA were T2. I think United will initially use the 757 on EWR-MAN, so it doesn't matter for them I think.
Weren't Delta in T2?

Originally Posted by Rutan16
The A333 leases were largely taken on because of 787 delays and compensation
Caveat two are technically operated by Virgin International on Caribbean routes from Heathrow .
Ultimately I agree that Delta would be far better recovering Atlanta on own metals; the 764 is perfectly suited as well as for any potential Boston service in the mid term.
The Virgin International thing isn't a thing anymore I believe, if it ever even really was. I agree on the Delta piece though, DL64/65 was clockwork reliable for years, mind you, so was AA54/55!
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 13:24
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
What percentage of the staff compliment required do you believe to be in place? Is the shortfall you reference in handling agency roles specifically, or across airport departments generally? What initiatives are underway to make up the deficit?
All I know is that on a day to day basis there are delays specifically because there simply aren't enough staff. Baggage handlers, Qualified tug drivers, Dispatchers, Licenced Engineers the lot.
Some of these skills can be trained quickly, some take years. From my own point of view the demographic of Licenced Engineers has reached critical mass. Most seem to be well into their 50s and 60s. This has been building for decades, industry is at fault for not training enough, the salary of these guys is now approaching 6 figures. The armed services, a pot that supplied the civilian industry with experienced people, has reduced dramatically. The cupboard is bare.
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 14:41
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I presume then that this is a UK industry-wide issue and not specific to MAN in isolation?
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 14:48
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Some excellent pos5s and points of view on here.

Can I suggest that someone applies for a post with the MAG marketing team?
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 14:53
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
Weren't Delta in T2?


The Virgin International thing isn't a thing anymore I believe, if it ever even really was. I agree on the Delta piece though, DL64/65 was clockwork reliable for years, mind you, so was AA54/55!
Sort of still does in that is the ticket broker on those Caribbean flights ( charges VS parents a commission) a money laundering scheme by any other name . Pays the diesel for Branson yacht as well

Classic tax dodge scam really.

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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 14:58
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
Weren't Delta in T2?


The Virgin International thing isn't a thing anymore I believe, if it ever even really was. I agree on the Delta piece though, DL64/65 was clockwork reliable for years, mind you, so was AA54/55!
When T2 originally opened ALL foreign long haul services were resident with Air Malta , and Britannia filling the gaps during the afternoon.

American later moved over to T3 east stands to be with BA.

.

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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 15:18
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Certainly would not have called American reliable infact they were pretty useless what ever aircraft was used and got worse as the years progressed
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 15:24
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
Weren't Delta in T2?


The Virgin International thing isn't a thing anymore I believe, if it ever even really was. I agree on the Delta piece though, DL64/65 was clockwork reliable for years, mind you, so was AA54/55!
Correct me if Iím wrong, but I *believe* Delta were assigned T1 for their 2020 MAN-BOS restart
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 16:36
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.



Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.



May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?
Ozzy
You make the point about Bus use and Middle East carriers, and indeed never mind aspirational ones, EK still has many remote stands for 777 operations.

However it is the Middle East and it is some what dryer than Manchester, though when it does rain in DXB it does throw it down. However this a little rarer than in Manchester, so they can get away with it, and premium passengers and the carriers would get mighty annoyed if you tried it in Manchester.

Cheers
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