Manchester-3
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Although there are new stands I believe there has been a loss of wide body capable contact stands at T2 with only 8 now, remembering that the LS 757’s can’t use the far side of the new A pier.
Also the terminal split, is different. In 2019 LS and TCX were in T1. EUK has replaced the loss of the two VS. That means any new entrant, particularly to the US may have to park remote, which the likes of US, DL probably wouldn’t want to do. I also believe they both used T2 in the past so wouldn’t want to use T1 or Ryanair HQ (T3) if they returned. There is already a massive amount of towing too/from remote stands early morning.
At T2 this summer you could have up to 4 TUI 787’s and 2 767’s, 4 VS, QR, EY, CX, 2 SQ, 2 EUK, 3 EXS A330’s plus EXS 757’s all who can only use 8 contact stands in T2. Surely that 2nd pier needs to be built before much more morning heavies come in?
Also the terminal split, is different. In 2019 LS and TCX were in T1. EUK has replaced the loss of the two VS. That means any new entrant, particularly to the US may have to park remote, which the likes of US, DL probably wouldn’t want to do. I also believe they both used T2 in the past so wouldn’t want to use T1 or Ryanair HQ (T3) if they returned. There is already a massive amount of towing too/from remote stands early morning.
At T2 this summer you could have up to 4 TUI 787’s and 2 767’s, 4 VS, QR, EY, CX, 2 SQ, 2 EUK, 3 EXS A330’s plus EXS 757’s all who can only use 8 contact stands in T2. Surely that 2nd pier needs to be built before much more morning heavies come in?
As for US carriers, AA were T3, DL were T1 & only UA were T2. I think United will initially use the 757 on EWR-MAN, so it doesn't matter for them I think.
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Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.
Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.
May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?
EUK has replaced the loss of the two VS.
Nailed it, simples.
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Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.
Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.
May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?
Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.
May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?
btw I make the high point of Virgin Atlantic as Summer 2019 with 35 flights per week with up to 6 aircraft rotations :
VS074 MCO x 2
VS076 MCO x 7
VS078 BGI x 2
VS086 LAS x 4
VS110 ATL x 7
VS122 BOS x 3
VS128 JFK x 7
VS182 LAX x 3 (replaced SFO)
With ISB and UVF both having been tried and dropped historically.
This winter only saw 3 based frames with 21 flights to ATL/JFK/MCO and BGI.
There are 5 more A350s and 11 more A339s to come but I am not 100% sure how many of the A333s are going back at end of lease so not all net growth.
Last edited by Skipness One Foxtrot; 1st Apr 2023 at 21:23.
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What percentage of the staff compliment required do you believe to be in place? Is the shortfall you reference in handling agency roles specifically, or across airport departments generally? What initiatives are underway to make up the deficit?
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They went bust so it's fair to ask if this high volume / low cost traffic would be picked up by anyone else currently in market.
I think I'd want to know the answer to these questions before deciding where to place my expensive assett.
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If we're talking a reasonable plan for VS at MAN:
Currently - 3x A333 and 1x A350 based. Current destinations include BGI, MCO, JFK and ATL. ISB terminated after S23.
Atlanta is a complete mess. 7x weekly was planned in the ACL S23 report, however this route is ditched for 8 weeks starting soon, because of 'piloting issues'. Delta need to take this route and fast, before VS ditch it completely. In a dream world Delta would take on the route beginning in June, give or take a few weeks, with a 767 or A330, although I think W23/S24 is more likely for this. Immediately this frees up an aircraft.
Virgin are taking on 17 A330neos. They have just received their 4th, VEII, a couple of days ago. VS have 10 A330-300s as of now. 3 are based at MAN. Once they get enough A330neos, it makes good sense to send 3 or 4 of these older 330s to Manchester, instead of scrapping them off. These aircraft are only around 10-12 years old.
So, what could be done with a 7 or 8 strong hub of A330 at MAN?
Virgin had 6 aircraft at Manchester pre-covid. Routes missing from that time are seasonal LAS and LAX. They would be reinstated immediately. 5x weekly each for the summer and 3-4 weekly in the winter seems right, which takes up roughly 1 and a half units.
Delhi and Mumbai were planned for 2020. These are very logical additions from a Skyteam point of view. Star Alliance Air India will start this route very soon. 5 a week to both destinations, year round, will fill every time. A mix of VFR customers from the catchment area, and even some VFR from the US could connect JFK-MAN-DEL.. This once again takes up roughly an aircraft and a half, so this leaves one more.
That is all pre-covid operated & planned routes covered. We still have an unfilled aircraft, so where could it fly?
Islamabad: Meh. Virgin will not operate to Pakistan even from LHR after this summer.
Austin, Texas: Really out there, but would actually do really well in my opinion. In recent years I have noticed quite a lot of Brits moving to Texas. Furthermore, Singapore's IAH route does quite well being a large A350 from a regional UK city to Texas. Austin is a very nice upcoming city, specifically in the tech sector. 2-4 per week and could pair up with another route.
San Francisco: A TCX route left unserved. It did well for them, why wouldn't it now?
Boston: Most likely out of any listed here, however it won't be on Virgin imho. A daily Delta 757 (as planned for Summer 2020) think will come 2024 to combat EIUK.
Montego Bay / Punta Cana: I feel as if one of these would be nice to pair SFO/AUS on this final aircraft. I flew with TCX to PUJ a few years before their demise and it was rammed full.
Overall, a dream scenario for VS at Manchester would be to see one of the T2 piers chock a block with their A330s, almost as if you couldn't tell the difference to being at LHR T3 lol.
Currently - 3x A333 and 1x A350 based. Current destinations include BGI, MCO, JFK and ATL. ISB terminated after S23.
Atlanta is a complete mess. 7x weekly was planned in the ACL S23 report, however this route is ditched for 8 weeks starting soon, because of 'piloting issues'. Delta need to take this route and fast, before VS ditch it completely. In a dream world Delta would take on the route beginning in June, give or take a few weeks, with a 767 or A330, although I think W23/S24 is more likely for this. Immediately this frees up an aircraft.
Virgin are taking on 17 A330neos. They have just received their 4th, VEII, a couple of days ago. VS have 10 A330-300s as of now. 3 are based at MAN. Once they get enough A330neos, it makes good sense to send 3 or 4 of these older 330s to Manchester, instead of scrapping them off. These aircraft are only around 10-12 years old.
So, what could be done with a 7 or 8 strong hub of A330 at MAN?
Virgin had 6 aircraft at Manchester pre-covid. Routes missing from that time are seasonal LAS and LAX. They would be reinstated immediately. 5x weekly each for the summer and 3-4 weekly in the winter seems right, which takes up roughly 1 and a half units.
Delhi and Mumbai were planned for 2020. These are very logical additions from a Skyteam point of view. Star Alliance Air India will start this route very soon. 5 a week to both destinations, year round, will fill every time. A mix of VFR customers from the catchment area, and even some VFR from the US could connect JFK-MAN-DEL.. This once again takes up roughly an aircraft and a half, so this leaves one more.
That is all pre-covid operated & planned routes covered. We still have an unfilled aircraft, so where could it fly?
Islamabad: Meh. Virgin will not operate to Pakistan even from LHR after this summer.
Austin, Texas: Really out there, but would actually do really well in my opinion. In recent years I have noticed quite a lot of Brits moving to Texas. Furthermore, Singapore's IAH route does quite well being a large A350 from a regional UK city to Texas. Austin is a very nice upcoming city, specifically in the tech sector. 2-4 per week and could pair up with another route.
San Francisco: A TCX route left unserved. It did well for them, why wouldn't it now?
Boston: Most likely out of any listed here, however it won't be on Virgin imho. A daily Delta 757 (as planned for Summer 2020) think will come 2024 to combat EIUK.
Montego Bay / Punta Cana: I feel as if one of these would be nice to pair SFO/AUS on this final aircraft. I flew with TCX to PUJ a few years before their demise and it was rammed full.
Overall, a dream scenario for VS at Manchester would be to see one of the T2 piers chock a block with their A330s, almost as if you couldn't tell the difference to being at LHR T3 lol.
Extension and or outright purchase will be completely and financially reckless to the bottom line. As leases expire and the 339 fleet gradually come online they will begin to leave the fleet for new lives or a period of retirement.
A ten year plus 2 extension places the time frame for withdrawals to start this coming winter and through to spring 2025 and in no coincidence with the 338 deliveries.
Caveat two are technically operated by Virgin International on Caribbean routes from Heathrow .
As said earlier I am currently very disappointed with Virgin Atlantic ( we know they survived financial melt down by a skin of their teeth and a bucket load of money from Atlanta) they remain unsure about their future direction of travel.
They lost the boutique selling points some years back, they backfill for Delta ( poorly imho) , whilst the Mouseland ops generate the daily revenues for the group .
Without valuable cruise traffic most of the Islands wouldn’t be viable either
Beyond that they are pretty small fry in the global market.
I think I have stated my opinion above ; opportunities from Manchester are now limited and the “temporary” suspension of Atlanta just further highlights my concern.
Ultimately I agree that Delta would be far better recovering Atlanta on own metals; the 764 is perfectly suited as well as for any potential Boston service in the mid term.
All that said Edinburgh and VisitScotland have taken the baton firmly away from MAG for the foreseeable.
Last edited by Rutan16; 2nd Apr 2023 at 14:37.
The A333 leases were largely taken on because of 787 delays and compensation
Caveat two are technically operated by Virgin International on Caribbean routes from Heathrow .
Ultimately I agree that Delta would be far better recovering Atlanta on own metals; the 764 is perfectly suited as well as for any potential Boston service in the mid term.
Caveat two are technically operated by Virgin International on Caribbean routes from Heathrow .
Ultimately I agree that Delta would be far better recovering Atlanta on own metals; the 764 is perfectly suited as well as for any potential Boston service in the mid term.
Some of these skills can be trained quickly, some take years. From my own point of view the demographic of Licenced Engineers has reached critical mass. Most seem to be well into their 50s and 60s. This has been building for decades, industry is at fault for not training enough, the salary of these guys is now approaching 6 figures. The armed services, a pot that supplied the civilian industry with experienced people, has reduced dramatically. The cupboard is bare.
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Classic tax dodge scam really.
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American later moved over to T3 east stands to be with BA.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I *believe* Delta were assigned T1 for their 2020 MAN-BOS restart
Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.
Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.
May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?
Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.
May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?
You make the point about Bus use and Middle East carriers, and indeed never mind aspirational ones, EK still has many remote stands for 777 operations.
However it is the Middle East and it is some what dryer than Manchester, though when it does rain in DXB it does throw it down. However this a little rarer than in Manchester, so they can get away with it, and premium passengers and the carriers would get mighty annoyed if you tried it in Manchester.
Cheers
Mr Mac
