Manchester-3

[roverman]

Originally Posted by AlwaysWatching1

I'm struggling as to why this has turned into an "anti Manchester" sentiment where followers of other airports seem to think that Mancunians feel they have entitlement ?

I certainly don't.

If airline A wishes to fly from airport X good luck to them, it's a commercial decision. BUT has Merseyside suddenly been identified as a brand new catchment area containing 000s of potential new travellers who have never flown before, doubtful ?

When one of your largest customers and one the of biggest airlines at Manchester creates a new base (just 21 miles away as the crow flies ), you have to look at the economic justification. I personally happen to believe that it's not market driven based on growth within Merseyside but slot availability and in turn that is down to stand capacity, at MAN ,the trouble is with no end in sight in terms of the work in progress one wonders if this is the thin edge of the wedge ? It's been said that the Manchester market is primarily old skool bucket and spade beach destinations, it's certainly a significant slug of the business so what happens if RYR, EZY, or TUI who primarily serve such markets want to expand at Manchester but feel constricted, is Liverpool now the default position ?

Another respondee suggested "where do you expect to build the stand capacity" and I agree. Manchester is now totally boxed in but who had overarching management of the masterplan ?
The same CEO has been here 10+ years. Could they not have built the transit sheds on the far side of the A538 and demolished the area known as the World freight village. Average throughput is down to 200te a day, ok its not an exact science but in context it equates to the equivalent of 4 HGVs a day.

Rutan mentioned SIA and AA, carriers that were championed by Sir Gil Thompson, he was someone who had a vision as to what Manchester could become and was not afraid to invest to make Manchester a major gateway. Of course the £1bn spend on the terminal is welcome but my point remains you have to have the supporting infrastructure to support the terminals throughput and its only my view but I feel there has been no provision to compensate for that failing whilst the work takes place.

(btw MANFAN If you are going to enter into meaningful debate with the grown ups, please ensure you get your facts right first).

I have the greatest respect for Sir Gil Thompson and all he did for the airport and the region. However, some of the strategic master-planning decisions made on his watch are the very ones that have constrained MAN today. Siting Terminal 2 at the north-western fringe of the site, away from the runway(s) and bordered by the M56, was a mistake. It would admittedly have been more disruptive and expensive in the short term but better in the long term to have constructed new hangars and freight facilities where T2 is, and build T2 to the west and southwest of T1. The location of T2 and cargo sheds has created a huge cul-de-sac, and with the money now invested in this configuration and with the facilities which have been sold off to outside interests we're stuck with this major constraint forever.

[Suzeman]

Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn

24 planning days to prove that management at MAN can still cope with a mega-event.

The UCL airlift. ISTANBUL - too far for competition at scale from road or rail. 20,000 ticketed fans. And how many more will travel anyway?

Will MAN cope? Or will they be palming off aircraft all across the north?

An opportunity for MAG to show they've still got what it takes. Or not???

Here's a worrying development, not just for the UCL airlift, but generally

A3856/23 NOTAMN Q) EGTT/QFAXX/IV/NBO/A /000/999/5321N00217W005 A) EGCC B) 2306010000 C) PERM E) AMEND LOCAL AERODROME REGULATIONS - USE OF RUNWAYS. PARA A/ I/ TO READ: DUAL RUNWAY SEGREGATED OPERATIONS ARE NORMALLY IN FORCE DURING THE FOLLOWING PERIODS IN SUMMER: MON-SUN 0600-0800 AND 1000-1500. ALL OTHER TIMES, SINGLE RUNWAY, MIXED-MODE OPERATIONS ARE IN FORCE USING RWY 05L/23R. UK AIP EGCC AD 2.20-6 REFERS. CREATED: 19 May 2023 12:25:00

So basically dual runway ops only between 0700 and 0900 and 1100-1600 local times if I have read it correctly and note it is a permanent change, so not going to be fixed soon. Can't remember what the current times are, but this seems like a significant reduction. Maybe NATS are unable to staff the current hours reliably as we know there have been a few ATC closures for short periods at night? Or maybe something else?

I assume this has been discussed with the airline community at MAN. I would also guess they are not happy!

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

What the heck??? Is there a staffing issue - ATC or fire cover?

[AlwaysWatching1]

Well if ever there was an eye roll moment this is it.

I assume this is very much in ATCs/NATs court but why has this NOTAM been issued now ? The timing is nothing short of incredible, are they working to rule or something ?

In two weeks time Manchester will have one its of busiest days in 6 years with 000s of returning fans compressed into a much shorter window than the departure days of 9th, 10th, 11th , many will be arriving in a window that sees single runway operations.

Its a jaw dropper.

[CabinCrewe]

Im sure they’ll cope… very rarely are there taxiway queues or inbound stacking due to restricted dual runway ops. If LGW can manage…

[MANFOD]

Originally Posted by AlwaysWatching1

Well if ever there was an eye roll moment this is it.

I assume this is very much in ATCs/NATs court but why has this NOTAM been issued now ? The timing is nothing short of incredible, are they working to rule or something ?

In two weeks time Manchester will have one its of busiest days in 6 years with 000s of returning fans compressed into a much shorter window than the departure days of 9th, 10th, 11th , many will be arriving in a window that sees single runway operations.

Its a jaw dropper.

Can only agree with you. (I think the departure dates are the 8th, 9th and 10th. One would assume the majority of flights will return on Sunday the 11th)

I do wonder whether this can be just an ATC issue. There are 5 different watches, each should have a complement of 9 Controllers as I understand it. I can accept a particular watch could be short staffed or even 2, but all 5? And because of minimal staffing on the nights shift, a number of Controllers 'slip' to the day shifts to supplement the busy periods. At least that's what used to happen. Maybe the airport decided it was easier to have a blanket schedule for dual ops. rather than ad hoc revisions when staff shortages occurred.

The original plan for dual runway ops for the summer as I recall was: -
Mon-Fri: 06.15 - 20.00
Sat: 06.15 - 16.00 (I think)
Not sure about Sundays but there was a break in the mornings I believe but then continued to 20.00.

Presumably there will be cost savings for MAN with NATS providing less of a service than previously agreed, and maybe with Fire cover op too..
The gap between 09.00 and 11.00 seems odd even if it is a slightly less busy period.
Can't recall the date when the original announcement was made for dual runway ops. I wonder if it's significant that there was a sizeable number of returned slots after the initial ACL report so that the airport will be less busy than perhaps originally hoped.

It is quite staggering that this is to become effective from 1st June, with only 12 days notice.

[SWBKCB]

It is quite staggering that this is to become effective from 1st June, with only 12 days notice.

Would the issuing of the Notam have been the first time those impacted would have heard of it?

[MANFOD]

Originally Posted by SWBKCB

Would the issuing of the Notam have been the first time those impacted would have heard of it?

Probably not. At least I hope not!
Incidentally, the new hours of dual runway ops. on weekdays is a reduction from 13 hours plus to only 7.

[laviation]

T2 did box in the airport big time.
A much better location for it would be roughly where the STS hangar lies now.
Stands close to the runways, cargo and hangar areas up where the new T2 pier is..
A little play about with Photoshop gives us a rough result of what a completed T2X would've looked like in a different position..

[chaps1954]

Sorry but cannot see why on earth that would ever work at all, where is the overnight parking, hangars which are required ,road infrastructure,

[laviation]

Originally Posted by chaps1954

Sorry but cannot see why on earth that would ever work at all, where is the overnight parking, hangars which are required ,road infrastructure,

Up the top where T2X is now ,it's a rough picture but they can fit up the top.

[chaps1954]

There are people on hear that know the ins and outs of why it was built as it is

[laviation]

Of course.. this was only a "what it would look like" post.

[MANFOD]

Originally Posted by laviation

Of course.. this was only a "what it would look like" post.

If I understood roverman's suggestion correctly, I think T2 would have been a bit further round the curve towards the 05L end than you have it. Perhaps extending from the hangars to where the unused Premair private terminal, bizjet area, and even the RVP are. The cul de sac has certainly been a problem at times for a/c arriving into, or departing from, T2. Hopefully the dual taxiways will alleviate some of that.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Originally Posted by MANFOD

I............the unused Premair private terminal............

Any plans for this? Seems never have taken off...

[laviation]

Reported on Aeroroutes: TUI to launch flights to Goa's new airport - Manohar - which was opened in December 2022.
Flights begin on 3 November 2023, services on Mondays and Fridays with 787-8.

They currently serve the older existing airport, Dabolim, on a seasonal basis. Note that this flight is currently slated as operating alongside Dabolim flights, I expect the Dabolim frequencies to be removed

[DP.]

Originally Posted by AlwaysWatching1

In 2015 the North of England was promised massive expansion, a single 35m pax capacity terminal with world class facilities, including pre clearance (now dropped) notwithstanding a pandemic it's now 2023 and progress is glacial with continuing adverse effects on day to day operations and seemingly no thought for the impact this might have on airline strategic thinking nor their operations ! Well we know what Jet2 are thinking ! Who will be next ?

(NB... worth mentioning the pandemic did not affect this timeline it was touted as a min 10 year project as far back as 2015).

This is a very odd criticism. The reason for the timeline should be obvious.

If they'd have closed the existing T2 and done the renovation works to that in parallel with building the new T2 - yes, it'd have been done quicker. Likewise if they'd have built all of the new piers concurrently. Likewise if they'd have done all the airfield works in one go.

Except that none of those things were possible because they had to maintain a functioning airport with enough capacity to service existing flights. How do you propose that they could've have done that whilst closing an entire terminal and effectively the entire western apron?

[Rutan16]

Liverpool-5


Why do you want to incite personal attacks really, however lets consider the complaint (not attacking you I don't know you from Adam)

Lets consider the range of complaints about this Airport which is far from a third world experience according to many customer polls

Toilets - this was an issue in T1 sometime ago and yes the sub-contract cleaning contracts should do a much better job
Usual problem -pay and terms crap - abysmal retention rates and tendered so low a price in the first place - A UK service industry -blight - profits and naff all service delivery -not unique to MAG.
Could it be addressed sure by services quality KPIs etc……. A relatively small £40-£60K expenditure might be worth it to refresh the block.

True T1 is currently being managed on a supply and maintenance basis and no one denies the facility is time expired certainly not me not even MAG Group themselves.

External travelators - Go search this thread indeed under my name -this is something I know about directly in another life - They are obsolete , parts not available and custom units would cost a fortune and take nearly a year to produce in Shenzhen - Its been discussed extensively.

Now I will acknowledge that MAG Group really should have a proper inter terminal shuttle bus contractor in place and why they don’t is a complete mystery - Frankly its pretty cheap ( compared to the last estimate of 1.2 million for the parts excluding builders work and prelims to sort the moving walkways - That was over three years ago - Probably more I don't work with Kone anymore)

T2 is a work in progress far from complete through the cosmetic budget -Living walls massive glass ceiling lights etc were deleted on cost grounds. Additionally evidence on the Berlin fiasco influenced some changes on the fire risk and design philosophies.
If you know anything about fire glass and global production -prices have sky rocketed and delivery lead times currently 2 to 3 years for speciality material.

Security issues are largely resolved

Issue with ATC - is external work force - I am not qualified to comment directly on this other than to understand what others have said that qualified controllers are in massive demand globally and leading to some areas of specific shortages.

With two airlines that operated high frequency services now defunct daily movement remain suppressed so there may well be sufficient leeway to temporarily reduce dual runway operations in the short/medium term - Manchester carriers seem very heavily invested in peak and trough style operations to fulfil their own commercial objectives.

The priority will be getting the first wave of departures out by 9.30 latest (The returns are generally staggered depending on the destinations ) whilst equally facilitating the early morning long haul arrival pattern.

A further wave of arrivals and departures is experienced mid to late afternoon however much shorter in time frame.

So the change at the moment is I expect manageable.

Whilst there are many here and in other places with an aviation interest be that enthusiast , occasional traveller or indeed the frequent flyer that sort of loath the Shopping Mall experience, large scale public surveys contradict this individual analysis.

Indeed these facilities are considered high value and people make positive choices to use Airports WITH retail services and these regularly score highly among consumer reviews.

MAG is very well aware of the value of that customer experience -indeed they are considered a market leader around the world with an entire business department supplying consultations to a myriad of other airport operators on a global scale.

Lack of at gate facilities - Agree to a point: equally that said Pier B was designed in another life time whilst Pier C did have some in the rotunda .

The original T2 concept was based on a linear approach prior to 9/11 with a significantly lower security threshold and tolerance with all gates being contact and directly in front of the customer.
It was intentionally designed with a low dwell time kerb to gate principle in mind and it worked until government imposed border changes and differing security regulations on the industry including sterile separation of arriving and departing passengers (both having be security vetted somewhere)

This has had a detrimental effect at many UK airports and very much so here in T1 directly resulting in that up and down stairs nonsense.

As for T3 well fundamentally its an okay Terminal for its original design brief and would have also worked had we remaining within the EU free movement and low/nil travel document area, similar to T2 it was designed for the low dwell kerb to gate principle and as a mini hub for a certain airline , rather than the dozen Ryanair’s in a hour handled today.

External the myriad of taxiways and cul de sacs built out over the years certain are a night mare agreed .

However all that said something over forty airlines including leading long haul carriers from around the world continue to value Manchester sufficiently highly enough to deploy their resources here rather the competing , Hamburg, Dusseldorf , Lyon, and even Dublin* caveat the resident IAG carrier and pre-clearance advantage.

Manchester is not some Changi government funded project - Its a functional regional airport and a major spoke in the global alliances - Is far from perfect has some problems sure but third world thats a simple platitude.

[HOVIS]

Sorry pal but when a brand new pier is falling apart, systems not functioning and an apron already overcrowded because ground equipment cannot be stored under the pier, someone has screwed up. They had a clean sheet design and they've made a right mess of it!

[Rutan16]

Originally Posted by HOVIS

Sorry pal but when a brand new pier is falling apart, systems not functioning and an apron already overcrowded because ground equipment cannot be stored under the pier, someone has screwed up. They had a clean sheet design and they've made a right mess of it!

Such complaint should be directed to the contractors surely if they haven’t delivered . Never said it was perfect far from it .

Whats the issue with the crypt space that something new to me .
What sort of plant is involved - flight steps , scissors , carts , push bars or are you talking about the snow co equipment that spends it time between T1 and the old T2 that sort of thing?

Claims failing apart on the pier;
How exactly sheeting loose , glazing leaking , roof leaking, steelwork corroding ,fire stopping lacking, failing ac/and fire extraction system not working (if this the license for use could be revoked by my friends and colleagues in the fire assessment industry), or something more cosmetic internally due to fit out quality issues that can be addressed under the retention of sub-contractors monies oweing perhaps.

Storage never existing under T1 as far as I remember caveat the road that went right in front and under of the original terminal facade decades ago.

Again whilst signed off it’s not complete and very much still within the snagging and retention period. If some of those issues are as you describe there will be a significant lump of money they’re yet to be paid

Just interested to understand the reasoning behind such a statement..