MANCHESTER 1
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And deicing is NOT the responsibility of the airport so no use use moaning about them. It's down to the handling agent. If there's not enough equipment operated or staff employed by the handling agent then ultimately it's down to each airline's executives who want all the things in the world whilst paying the barest minimum on contracts which results in scrimping and saving done by the handling agents.
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Very well said Ringwayman. These moans re de-incing should be directed at the handling agent, but I'd imagine you pay peanuts you get peanuts comes into play.
There was a tremendous amount of effort from MAN themselves to clear the airfield, and they did it well. It's also made to sound like there was only a sprinkling of snow where I would describe it as significant.
MAN has also increased in capacity to clear snow, there are many photos online of an army of ploughs just parked up between T2 and T1 awaiting action. I'd say too many for an airport that rarely gets snow, but I suppose when it does snow there is a large area to clear. They'll get used about twice a year !
There was a tremendous amount of effort from MAN themselves to clear the airfield, and they did it well. It's also made to sound like there was only a sprinkling of snow where I would describe it as significant.
MAN has also increased in capacity to clear snow, there are many photos online of an army of ploughs just parked up between T2 and T1 awaiting action. I'd say too many for an airport that rarely gets snow, but I suppose when it does snow there is a large area to clear. They'll get used about twice a year !
ultimately it's down to each airline's executives who want all the things in the world whilst paying the barest minimum on contracts which results in scrimping and saving done by the handling agents.
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If there's not enough equipment operated or staff employed by the handling agent then ultimately it's down to each airline's executives who want all the things in the world whilst paying the barest minimum on contracts which results in scrimping and saving done by the handling agents.
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the de-icing fiasco, could quite easily be solved by the airport. Allow a remote deicing 'pod' as they call it in CDG, a/c taxi's out, gets done by 3 or 4 rigs in a few minutes 30 second taxi, then take off.
The problem with 'de-snowing' rather than deicing is nobody really knows how to do it.
oh and by the way deicing is not cheap.
It is the lack of proper equipment and adequate facilities.
I once did a 744 in ARN, took minutes, but then the equipment was modern and efficient.
The problem with 'de-snowing' rather than deicing is nobody really knows how to do it.
oh and by the way deicing is not cheap.
It is the lack of proper equipment and adequate facilities.
I once did a 744 in ARN, took minutes, but then the equipment was modern and efficient.
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How do you fix that? People absolutely won't pay more to fly, they just choose the cheaper competitor, I think the truth is, the fault lies with the consumer, *us*.
And deicing is NOT the responsibility of the airport so no use use moaning about them. It's down to the handling agent. If there's not enough equipment operated or staff employed by the handling agent then ultimately it's down to each airline's executives who want all the things in the world whilst paying the barest minimum on contracts which results in scrimping and saving done by the handling agents.
As for the general snow closures, we saw a post recently showing off all the investment MAN made yet it was still closed for a substantial period of time. Do people believe the airport were adequately prepared?
On a general note how many handlers are based at MAN as I will agree having to many handlers can result in a poor level of service to everybody even staff employed.
Dublin have over 120 vehicles for snow-clearing and de-icing equipment. How does MAN compare when they handle more passengers and have a second runway.
Edit - According to Man Evening News they have over 40. There is the problem..
Last edited by Jamie2k9; 1st Feb 2015 at 15:38.
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Is MAN substantially under staffed for the level of contracts each handling companies have as this does not happen at other airports in the UK.
On a general note how many handlers are based at MAN
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Dublin have over 120 vehicles for snow-clearing and de-icing equipment. How does MAN compare when they handle more passengers and have a second runway.
Edit - According to Man Evening News they have over 40. There is the problem..
Edit - According to Man Evening News they have over 40. There is the problem..
As an airport we have over 40 pieces of snow clearing equipment and have invested over £2m in upgrading this fleet in recent years.
then I think you'll find this refers only to the Airport Company's airfield clearing equipment and therefore does not include any of the handling agents de-icing rigs. Are you comparing apples with pears?
And the second runway is the lowest priority for clearing. If you can be arsed you can find the Winter Ops Plan on the internet.
As for the general snow closures, we saw a post recently showing off all the investment MAN made yet it was still closed for a substantial period of time. Do people believe the airport were adequately prepared?
The fact that there were problems with de-icing is down to the handling agents who in the UK are involved in "a race to the bottom" as one of their board members once told me. Undercut the other guy and get the volume in; then we'll see how we can achieve it. There is no redundancy at all in the system to use when things go t*ts up and everything unravels.
And Ringwayman and Skippy put it very well, airlines want lower prices to reduce their costs so will drive a hard bargain. Passengers generally want the lowest prices too, so how do you get out of that one?
The answer seems to be that you don't and passengers will have to accept that in order to enjoy their low cost trips, don't expect the system to work properly when unusual situations are encountered. But nowadays people will mouth off about any little thing if they think it will get a like on Faceache or create a Twitterstorm or even worse there is some compensation likely.
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Suzeman please clarify more about the first snow clearing.
This is the problem the runway was not cleared until 07.30 when flights commenced at around 6??
If that is correct it is un acceptable, what were staff doing all night?
This is the problem the runway was not cleared until 07.30 when flights commenced at around 6??
If that is correct it is un acceptable, what were staff doing all night?
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It didn't really snow till around 6.30/6.45 and was light.
The actual weather and TAFs for the day in question covering the relevant time period,,
The METARs
The TAFs
I'll leave it to the experts to work out if the TAFs were accurate in light of the METARs but to this untrained eye, it looks like the weather was far worse than the forecast.
The actual weather and TAFs for the day in question covering the relevant time period,,
The METARs
The TAFs
I'll leave it to the experts to work out if the TAFs were accurate in light of the METARs but to this untrained eye, it looks like the weather was far worse than the forecast.
Last edited by Ringwayman; 1st Feb 2015 at 17:05. Reason: to answer j636
Last year at Munich, a very wintery snowy airport, I was delayed one hour due to no staff available to load bags. Then had to queue another 30 minutes for the de-icing pod- then it snowed more & the airport was closed. Finaly got away almost 3 hours late. Even the super efficient snow ready German airports fair not much better than MAN at times. Give the guys a break - they do their best with what they have, IMHO no worse than many other places.
Certain airlines are making record profits- but still want to pay peanuts, they are as much to blame as the customers looking for basement fares.
Previous to that, in the past I've also been stuck at Frankfurt airport for 36 hours hours when It snowed for a couple of hours, sending the entire airport T*ts up for days.
Certain airlines are making record profits- but still want to pay peanuts, they are as much to blame as the customers looking for basement fares.
Previous to that, in the past I've also been stuck at Frankfurt airport for 36 hours hours when It snowed for a couple of hours, sending the entire airport T*ts up for days.
Reference the quote by Jamie about DUB having 120 pieces of equipment for snow clearing: After they got heavily criticised in 2010/2011 during the bad weather they started a scheme. Farmers would be paid by the airport to lend their tractors to the airport in winter months. The tractors are stored in heated sheds so it's a win win for farmers who wouldn't need their equipment in winter. The airport will also pay those willing to be on call to assist snow clearing when needed with their own tractors which are stored on the airfield. It's a win win. Do MAN not do something similar? Worth looking at if they don't.
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yet the same curcumstances of undercutting is occurring in Europe and US, yet they cope?
Anyways here's a few not at Manchester....
Remember the debacle at LGW last summer with lack of handling in the early hours - national headlines, airport company put the blame squarely on the handling agent (Swissport)
Gatwick chaos: Airline axes baggage handler Swissport after extended delays - Home News - UK - The Independent
or this one at Stansted, again involving Swissport
Last night a spokesman for Swissport said: ‘Swissport staff were under extreme pressure dealing with an unprecedented level of flights and whilst we accept we should have unloaded the passengers sooner we simply had no one available to unload when contacted by the captain. Swissport regret any delay to passengers and to Ryanair.’
or in Singapore
More than a thousand Jetstar passengers face delays, cancellations and luggage headache - Singapore Transport News & Top Stories - The Straits Times
Swissport, Menzies, ASIG, WFS, Dnata and soon to be joined by Aviator. Airline services are also present but only undertake cleaning and De-icing at the moment.
Would Collaborative Decision Making improve the situation? Discuss
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Suzeman please clarify more about the first snow clearing.
This is the problem the runway was not cleared until 07.30 when flights commenced at around 6??
If that is correct it is un acceptable, what were staff doing all night?
This is the problem the runway was not cleared until 07.30 when flights commenced at around 6??
If that is correct it is un acceptable, what were staff doing all night?
Then it snowed more heavily which required a closure for about 30 minutes approx 0700-0730.
With winds of around 20 kts, CBs and thunderstorms and heavy snow causing low visibility procedures, the airport closed again at 0900 until 1315
Hope this clarifies the situation.
Re DUB
The airport will also pay those willing to be on call to assist snow clearing when needed with their own tractors which are stored on the
airfield.
airfield.
Last edited by Suzeman; 1st Feb 2015 at 17:58. Reason: DUB question
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Yes, MAN airport seem to allow any amount of Ground Handling Agents (GHA)'s at MAN.
If I am correct it is not a mandatory airport requirement for GHA's to provide at MAN.
Of the GHA's I believe that only Swissport provides to its customers and the other is from Airline Services. (stand to be corrected)
Also the Airlines quite often use a different De-icing supplier to their handling Agent.
Airlines will generally not pay any kind of retainer for de-icing so no incentive for a GHA to provide.
With De-icing rigs costing anything upwards of £300k and De-icing fluid is a time life product and having trained staff on standby.
How can a business case to provide on the basis that it may be required a few days a year.
GHA's have seen their rates driven down over the years by the Airline's and their returns are minimal . Hence minimum staffing and if they do not have to provide a services they will not.
Yes a Central De-icing facility or pad would be great but does MAN have the space and is there a business case to justify it.
Another option would be that ALL GHA's should provide De-icing as part of the Airport Authority approval. At least that way their would be more De-icing rigs available
If no change to current situation then there will be delays at time.
If I am correct it is not a mandatory airport requirement for GHA's to provide at MAN.
Of the GHA's I believe that only Swissport provides to its customers and the other is from Airline Services. (stand to be corrected)
Also the Airlines quite often use a different De-icing supplier to their handling Agent.
Airlines will generally not pay any kind of retainer for de-icing so no incentive for a GHA to provide.
With De-icing rigs costing anything upwards of £300k and De-icing fluid is a time life product and having trained staff on standby.
How can a business case to provide on the basis that it may be required a few days a year.
GHA's have seen their rates driven down over the years by the Airline's and their returns are minimal . Hence minimum staffing and if they do not have to provide a services they will not.
Yes a Central De-icing facility or pad would be great but does MAN have the space and is there a business case to justify it.
Another option would be that ALL GHA's should provide De-icing as part of the Airport Authority approval. At least that way their would be more De-icing rigs available
If no change to current situation then there will be delays at time.
Suzeman, I don't have a clue what hoops they have to jump through to get security cleared. A lot of red tape can be cut through by giving them an airport ops vehicle as an escort like they do for construction equipment when resurfacing works etc are ongoing. The folks driving the dump trucks are just normal construction workers with a police vetting done to get them an airside pass
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Yes, MAN airport seem to allow any amount of Ground Handling Agents (GHA)'s at MAN.
The CAA has powers under the Airports (Groundhandling) Regulations 1997 which implemented the European directive on access to the ground handling market at Community airports. The directive is intended to liberalise handling at EU airports.
Airports with over 2 million passengers a year cannot limit the number of self handlers or third party suppliers of ground handling services without permission from the CAA.
Limitations can only be granted on the grounds of specific safety, security, capacity or available space constraints.
Airports can apply to the CAA for the number of suppliers or self-handlers to be limited.
Airports with over 2 million passengers a year cannot limit the number of self handlers or third party suppliers of ground handling services without permission from the CAA.
Limitations can only be granted on the grounds of specific safety, security, capacity or available space constraints.
Airports can apply to the CAA for the number of suppliers or self-handlers to be limited.
Lots of bumf there
Some particularly interesting stuff in here although it's from 2007
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...s/gh1_2007.pdf
Suzeman, I don't have a clue what hoops they have to jump through to get security cleared. A lot of red tape can be cut through by giving them an airport ops vehicle as an escort like they do for construction equipment when resurfacing works etc are ongoing. The folks driving the dump trucks are just normal construction workers with a police vetting done to get them an airside pass
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Swissport, Menzies, ASIG, WFS, Dnata and soon to be joined by Aviator. Airline services are also present but only undertake cleaning and De-icing at the moment.
then I think you'll find this refers only to the Airport Company's airfield clearing equipment and therefore does not include any of the handling agents de-icing rigs. Are you comparing apples with pears?
And Ringwayman and Skippy put it very well, airlines want lower prices to reduce their costs so will drive a hard bargain. Passengers generally want the lowest prices too, so how do you get out of that one?
The answer seems to be that you don't and passengers will have to accept that in order to enjoy their low cost trips, don't expect the system to work properly when unusual situations are encountered. But nowadays people will mouth off about any little thing if they think it will get a like on Faceache or create a Twitterstorm or even worse there is some compensation likely.
The answer seems to be that you don't and passengers will have to accept that in order to enjoy their low cost trips, don't expect the system to work properly when unusual situations are encountered. But nowadays people will mouth off about any little thing if they think it will get a like on Faceache or create a Twitterstorm or even worse there is some compensation likely.
yet the same curcumstances of undercutting is occurring in Europe and US, yet they cope?
I'll leave it to the experts to work out if the TAFs were accurate in light of the METARs but to this untrained eye, it looks like the weather was far worse than the forecast.
Last year at Munich, a very wintery snowy airport, I was delayed one hour due to no staff available to load bags. Then had to queue another 30 minutes for the de-icing pod- then it snowed more & the airport was closed. Finaly got away almost 3 hours late. Even the super efficient snow ready German airports fair not much better than MAN at times. Give the guys a break - they do their best with what they have, IMHO no worse than many other places.
Certain airlines are making record profits- but still want to pay peanuts, they are as much to blame as the customers looking for basement fares.
Previous to that, in the past I've also been stuck at Frankfurt airport for 36 hours hours when It snowed for a couple of hours, sending the entire airport T*ts up for days.
Certain airlines are making record profits- but still want to pay peanuts, they are as much to blame as the customers looking for basement fares.
Previous to that, in the past I've also been stuck at Frankfurt airport for 36 hours hours when It snowed for a couple of hours, sending the entire airport T*ts up for days.
Reference the quote by Jamie about DUB having 120 pieces of equipment for snow clearing: After they got heavily criticised in 2010/2011 during the bad weather they started a scheme. Farmers would be paid by the airport to lend their tractors to the airport in winter months. The tractors are stored in heated sheds so it's a win win for farmers who wouldn't need their equipment in winter. The airport will also pay those willing to be on call to assist snow clearing when needed with their own tractors which are stored on the airfield. It's a win win. Do MAN not do something similar? Worth looking at if they don't.
Anyways here's a few not at Manchester....
Remember the debacle at LGW last summer with lack of handling in the early hours - national headlines, airport company put the blame squarely on the handling agent (Swissport)
Gatwick chaos: Airline axes baggage handler Swissport after extended delays - Home News - UK - The Independent
or this one at Stansted, again involving Swissport
Quote:
Last night a spokesman for Swissport said: ‘Swissport staff were under extreme pressure dealing with an unprecedented level of flights and whilst we accept we should have unloaded the passengers sooner we simply had no one available to unload when contacted by the captain. Swissport regret any delay to passengers and to Ryanair.’
Ryanair passengers call police during ELEVEN hour delay as they demand 'food, water and the right to leave the aircraft' at Stansted airport | Daily Mail Online
or in Singapore
More than a thousand Jetstar passengers face delays, cancellations and luggage headache - Singapore Transport News & Top Stories - The Straits Times
Remember the debacle at LGW last summer with lack of handling in the early hours - national headlines, airport company put the blame squarely on the handling agent (Swissport)
Gatwick chaos: Airline axes baggage handler Swissport after extended delays - Home News - UK - The Independent
or this one at Stansted, again involving Swissport
Quote:
Last night a spokesman for Swissport said: ‘Swissport staff were under extreme pressure dealing with an unprecedented level of flights and whilst we accept we should have unloaded the passengers sooner we simply had no one available to unload when contacted by the captain. Swissport regret any delay to passengers and to Ryanair.’
Ryanair passengers call police during ELEVEN hour delay as they demand 'food, water and the right to leave the aircraft' at Stansted airport | Daily Mail Online
or in Singapore
More than a thousand Jetstar passengers face delays, cancellations and luggage headache - Singapore Transport News & Top Stories - The Straits Times
Management need to think outside the box if they are un willing to invest in a facility. Then we have them banging out about how great MAN can be for a Hub in the North. A hub that can only operate when its not to cold outside!
It didn't really snow till around 6.30/6.45 and was light.
Last edited by Jamie2k9; 1st Feb 2015 at 20:52.