MANCHESTER 1
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EGCC Winter Wonderland: 2015 Edition
It has to be remembered here that MAG actually handled their snow situation very well on Thursday. Heavy snow fell 09:00 - 11:30 ish and they had the place up and running again by around 13:30. As has been pointed out, the contentious criticism relates to de-icing of individual aircraft which is down to the handling agents. The general public who know no better will apportion blame arbitrarily. However, we within the industry should know better and can be much more specific. The folks responsible for clearing runways and taxiways actually did a super job. Those responsible for de-icing aeroplanes did such job as their low staffing levels and inadequate equipment allowed. Give praise where it is due; give criticism where it is warranted.
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this is the 1st winter we have had snow for about 4 or 5 years
and that lot was dry powder snow, this fall of about 4ins was a very wet
and heavy kind and even trying to clear it of the car was an effort.
I don`t remember it snowing so heavy for such a long time since I have lived here and that is 45 years.
Ian
and that lot was dry powder snow, this fall of about 4ins was a very wet
and heavy kind and even trying to clear it of the car was an effort.
I don`t remember it snowing so heavy for such a long time since I have lived here and that is 45 years.
Ian
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Away from the snow, Manchester is one of the initial destinations to feature the new lower density B77Ws from Singapore Airlines.
Less economy seating paving way for Premium economy. While split with Munich, all helps show an upturn in yield, people willing to pay more for tickets.
New config starts 2 weekly on 20th Oct, daily from 1st December.
This comes after EK increased their premium offering by 20% tonight with the introduction of the 2nd A380 (which had 517, or in other words, full in and 498 out).
Surely paints the picture the old adage of yield is getting better at MAN.
Less economy seating paving way for Premium economy. While split with Munich, all helps show an upturn in yield, people willing to pay more for tickets.
New config starts 2 weekly on 20th Oct, daily from 1st December.
This comes after EK increased their premium offering by 20% tonight with the introduction of the 2nd A380 (which had 517, or in other words, full in and 498 out).
Surely paints the picture the old adage of yield is getting better at MAN.
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Maybe the Handling agents should just leave De-icing to the Airport Authority as they do at other airports.
Or maybe could it be that Airport would not make any money on De-icing??
That's probably why ASIG, Dnata Menzies and WFS currently do not.
Or maybe could it be that Airport would not make any money on De-icing??
That's probably why ASIG, Dnata Menzies and WFS currently do not.
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Hello
I was on shift Thursday morning De-icing.. the first wave of snow was very wet but only about 1/2 inch fell which was quiet easy to blast off. Then the heavy snow came the airport was shut down and all De-icing was suspended because we did not know when the airfield was going to open we was told 10am then when the snow storm arrived we was told next info 12 noon.
we was on stand by but because of the heavy snow the hold over time was only 45 mins
once we got the nod the airfield was going to open we started to De-ice but that's when all the problems started .. we tried blasting with snow guns but the snow was to heavy so we had to brush first then spray.
the problem was the first lot of wet snow had frozen to the cold surface then covered with fresh snow. also because it was wet snow when the De-icing fluid hit the snow it turned to ice. it was very hard work to clear a plane some planes were taking over 3'000 litters of fluid one 757 took 1 hour 25 mins to De-ice the Airlines were happy we were thanked by everyone we did and no complaints ......
You can not put a time limit and how much fluid you use on safety at the end of the day safety first it is my neck on the line as i have to sign a piece off paper that is a legal document (that is kept on file for two years)to say i have sprayed the aircraft and all surfaced are clear of snow ice and frost
rampman
I was on shift Thursday morning De-icing.. the first wave of snow was very wet but only about 1/2 inch fell which was quiet easy to blast off. Then the heavy snow came the airport was shut down and all De-icing was suspended because we did not know when the airfield was going to open we was told 10am then when the snow storm arrived we was told next info 12 noon.
we was on stand by but because of the heavy snow the hold over time was only 45 mins
once we got the nod the airfield was going to open we started to De-ice but that's when all the problems started .. we tried blasting with snow guns but the snow was to heavy so we had to brush first then spray.
the problem was the first lot of wet snow had frozen to the cold surface then covered with fresh snow. also because it was wet snow when the De-icing fluid hit the snow it turned to ice. it was very hard work to clear a plane some planes were taking over 3'000 litters of fluid one 757 took 1 hour 25 mins to De-ice the Airlines were happy we were thanked by everyone we did and no complaints ......
You can not put a time limit and how much fluid you use on safety at the end of the day safety first it is my neck on the line as i have to sign a piece off paper that is a legal document (that is kept on file for two years)to say i have sprayed the aircraft and all surfaced are clear of snow ice and frost
rampman
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Thanks to rampman who has explained very well the technical difficulties caused by the sequence of weather events that led to the long de-icing times; something that us armchair experts did not know.
So Jamie 2k9, we'll be watching DUB very carefully from the comfort of our armchairs when the next snow event happens there.....
So Jamie 2k9, we'll be watching DUB very carefully from the comfort of our armchairs when the next snow event happens there.....
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So Jamie 2k9, we'll be watching DUB very carefully from the comfort of our armchairs when the next snow event happens there.....
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nothing more could have been done on Thursday the airport did an amazing job to open the airfield as quick as they did and the company that De-ice did an outstanding job . The snow plan went like clock work
well done to all involved and to those that stayed on after there shift to help get the planes out as quick as we could (which was a lot off people)
well done to all involved and to those that stayed on after there shift to help get the planes out as quick as we could (which was a lot off people)
MAN is a privately run business part of a group with shareholders. If they spend an extra x million on equipment or services for 1 or 2 days a year (and often 0 days a year) it'll be questioned and very tough to justify, whereas DUB, being state owned, may find it easier to do this in my opinion.
No where is going to be 100% weather proof however comparing Munich to Manchester is not realistic
Aside from snow, here is a tweet from CH4 News John Snow tonight...
Entering uk thru Gatwick on a Sunday night,Deeply dispiriting experience:vast queues;Long waits and a jammed slow train called an 'express'!
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Indeed but let me be clear I didn't expect MAN not to close for a period of time but given if adequate facilities were available could it of being handled better is all I am saying.
But you seem to have had your answer - adequate facilities were available and the all the Airport staff did a good job seems to be story from those on the ground.
Those responsible for de-icing aeroplanes did such job as their low staffing levels and inadequate equipment allowed. Give praise where it is due; give criticism where it is warranted.
Swissport & Airline Services had ALL their rigs manned and in use.
A B777 is a big aeroplane. de-icing with one rig is not acceptable. Two rigs minimum should have been provided.
Two rigs for half the time instead of one rig that had to refill.
Perhaps, if the de-icing rig got a bit closer to the airframe it would actually hit the target and the fluid would still be hot enough to do it's job.
Tying to blast snow off the top of the fuselage from 30ft away is nuts!
The airport did a great job clearing the runway and taxiways. The two de-icing agents performed very badly.
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And now for something completely different!
For those who are interested, I have posted an in-depth comparison of the respective costs of providing new runways at LHR/LGW with the final price-tag of MAN's 05R/23L adjusted for inflation. The differentials are quite staggering. The comparative lack of publicly-funded infrastructure investment in the regions is also highlighted. If this topic interests you, please refer to the HEATHROW thread post No.3442.
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Jamie2K9
You might want to check the numbers involved in Dublins "adequate facilites"
The numbers they quote for snow clearing equipment include a number of vehicles from outside contractors such as tipper lorries and shovel loaders, and also includes "miscellaneous equipment" which they define as fuel trucks, jeeps, telescopic booms, hoists etc...
The tractors that Una Due TFC talks about probably make up quite a large proportion of the 80 odd trators Dublins include in their 120 vehicles.
Assuming half of the 82 tractors they appear to have are "loaned" and adding in the tipper lorries, loaders and misc equipment we are down to under 60 pieces of equipment....
I doubt very much Manchesters spokesman was including hoists and fuel trucks in there figures, and would also not have included any outside contractors vehicles either, as the quote was "we have over 40" not we have access to over 40".
It also appears the MEN article which quotes over 40 vehicles was a quote from a spokesman not a prepared statement, so it may be a best guess.
The quote regarding having spent £2 million in recent years in definitely incorrect as they spent £2 million in 2010 and then purchased another set of new vehicles this year as well.
The MEN also has a history of negativity in its stories about Manchesters transport links, including not giving complete quotes of what was said in response to their questions, so I take anything they say with a pinch of salt
You might want to check the numbers involved in Dublins "adequate facilites"
The numbers they quote for snow clearing equipment include a number of vehicles from outside contractors such as tipper lorries and shovel loaders, and also includes "miscellaneous equipment" which they define as fuel trucks, jeeps, telescopic booms, hoists etc...
The tractors that Una Due TFC talks about probably make up quite a large proportion of the 80 odd trators Dublins include in their 120 vehicles.
Assuming half of the 82 tractors they appear to have are "loaned" and adding in the tipper lorries, loaders and misc equipment we are down to under 60 pieces of equipment....
I doubt very much Manchesters spokesman was including hoists and fuel trucks in there figures, and would also not have included any outside contractors vehicles either, as the quote was "we have over 40" not we have access to over 40".
It also appears the MEN article which quotes over 40 vehicles was a quote from a spokesman not a prepared statement, so it may be a best guess.
The quote regarding having spent £2 million in recent years in definitely incorrect as they spent £2 million in 2010 and then purchased another set of new vehicles this year as well.
The MEN also has a history of negativity in its stories about Manchesters transport links, including not giving complete quotes of what was said in response to their questions, so I take anything they say with a pinch of salt
Last edited by caryh; 2nd Feb 2015 at 01:01. Reason: New info
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Reference the quote by Jamie about DUB having 120 pieces of equipment for snow clearing: After they got heavily criticised in 2010/2011 during the bad weather they started a scheme. Farmers would be paid by the airport to lend their tractors to the airport in winter months. The tractors are stored in heated sheds so it's a win win for farmers who wouldn't need their equipment in winter. The airport will also pay those willing to be on call to assist snow clearing when needed with their own tractors which are stored on the airfield. It's a win win. Do MAN not do something similar? Worth looking at if they don't.
You might want to check the numbers involved in Dublins "adequate facilites"
The numbers they quote for snow clearing equipment include a number of vehicles from outside contractors such as tipper lorries and shovel loaders, and also includes "miscellaneous equipment" which they define as fuel trucks, jeeps, telescopic booms, hoists etc...
The tractors that Una Due TFC talks about probably make up quite a large proportion of the 80 odd trators Dublins include in their 120 vehicles.
Assuming half of the 82 tractors they appear to have are "loaned" and adding in the tipper lorries, loaders and misc equipment we are down to under 60 pieces of equipment....
I doubt very much Manchesters spokesman was including hoists and fuel trucks in there figures, and would also not have included any outside contractors vehicles either, as the quote was "we have over 40" not we have access to over 40".
It also appears the MEN article which quotes over 40 vehicles was a quote from a spokesman not a prepared statement, so it may be a best guess.
The quote regarding having spent £2 million in recent years in definitely incorrect as they spent £2 million in 2010 and then purchased another set of new vehicles this year as well.
The MEN also has a history of negativity in its stories about Manchesters transport links, including not giving complete quotes of what was said in esponse to their questions, so I take anything they say with a pinch of salt
The numbers they quote for snow clearing equipment include a number of vehicles from outside contractors such as tipper lorries and shovel loaders, and also includes "miscellaneous equipment" which they define as fuel trucks, jeeps, telescopic booms, hoists etc...
The tractors that Una Due TFC talks about probably make up quite a large proportion of the 80 odd trators Dublins include in their 120 vehicles.
Assuming half of the 82 tractors they appear to have are "loaned" and adding in the tipper lorries, loaders and misc equipment we are down to under 60 pieces of equipment....
I doubt very much Manchesters spokesman was including hoists and fuel trucks in there figures, and would also not have included any outside contractors vehicles either, as the quote was "we have over 40" not we have access to over 40".
It also appears the MEN article which quotes over 40 vehicles was a quote from a spokesman not a prepared statement, so it may be a best guess.
The quote regarding having spent £2 million in recent years in definitely incorrect as they spent £2 million in 2010 and then purchased another set of new vehicles this year as well.
The MEN also has a history of negativity in its stories about Manchesters transport links, including not giving complete quotes of what was said in esponse to their questions, so I take anything they say with a pinch of salt
50 Tractors with brush/plough
8 Multihog with brush/plough
4 Runway sweeper
4 Deicers (not for aircraft)
3 Taxiway Sweepers
3 Ramp hogs
3 Snow Blowers
Miscellaneous Equipment make up 20. 15 others are contracted equipment and are not classed as miscellaneous equipment.
Staff trained and on stand by per shift increased from 70 to 155 (300 total) an additional 250,000 liters of de icier is available at the airport (0.5 million liters).
Clearly TURIN post sums it up quiet well and where the real problems are!
Now moving on....
Last edited by EI-A330-300; 2nd Feb 2015 at 02:11.
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LAX-LHR said:
"This comes after EK increased their premium offering by 20% tonight with the introduction of the 2nd A380 (which had 517, or in other words, full in and 498 out)."
Surely this warrants more comment on here than how many fecking tractors Dublin leases each winter??!!!
Key airline upgrades equipment on a route with what, 3 weeks notice??
Upgrade sees what, an additional 150-160 seats suddenly dumped onto the market?
First upgraded flight flies in 100% full. First upgraded flight departs with a 96% load factor.
That's the equivalent of an additional A320 filled in 3 weeks on long haul.
I'll repeat for effect:
Emirates managed to sell an A320's worth of extra seats in 3 weeks.
Wow. Much more interesting information than tractor leasing deals in Ireland......................
Jeez, no wonder the mods love locking MAN threads....................
"This comes after EK increased their premium offering by 20% tonight with the introduction of the 2nd A380 (which had 517, or in other words, full in and 498 out)."
Surely this warrants more comment on here than how many fecking tractors Dublin leases each winter??!!!
Key airline upgrades equipment on a route with what, 3 weeks notice??
Upgrade sees what, an additional 150-160 seats suddenly dumped onto the market?
First upgraded flight flies in 100% full. First upgraded flight departs with a 96% load factor.
That's the equivalent of an additional A320 filled in 3 weeks on long haul.
I'll repeat for effect:
Emirates managed to sell an A320's worth of extra seats in 3 weeks.
Wow. Much more interesting information than tractor leasing deals in Ireland......................
Jeez, no wonder the mods love locking MAN threads....................
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GEB74 I think you'll find trains, motorways and the internet are far more important topics on here rather than airlines or routes. Essays and drivel popular too. Airport about to be at its busiest ever annual total, long haul booming with lots of announcements imminent, 3 lo cost carriers with huge bases and big plans and Flybe providing ever growing hub connectivity for all. Yet we want to talk about tractors and Heathrow runway costs. Oh yes and I'm a troll apparently.
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long haul booming with lots of announcements imminent,
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Emirates
Well done to Emirates. To fill an aircraft the size of an A380 with hardly any notice is pretty impressive, and this shows the popularity of Emirates and Dubai. It will be interesting to see if this has an effect on Etihad's evening flight and Qatar's soon to start evening service. Does anyone know the loads for Etihad's evening flight on the night of the first A380?