Alitalia (Merged)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Both Emispheres
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No obtusity but simple facts. Have to say that for someone enjoying life in the Far East you seem a bit too attached to the western habit of being confrontational all the time.
And we (Italians) have to thank not only SB but the previous governments also.
Still I mantain that Italy is not much different than the other EU countries, only we're less good at hiding the worst of us and keep a straight face all the time.
And we (Italians) have to thank not only SB but the previous governments also.
Still I mantain that Italy is not much different than the other EU countries, only we're less good at hiding the worst of us and keep a straight face all the time.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ITALY
Age: 59
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Otterman
It always amazing to read comments on Italian things made from foreigners who most probably cannot read a word in Italian.
Yes , maybe SB has been indicted 350 times, but he has always been discharged except in 2 cases which personally I consider doubtful…. This says it all not on SB, but on the judiciary system in Italy – very poorly efficient if ,after prosecuting a person 350 times, it do not obtain the expected results. And it says all on the vision that some part of the judiciary system has on SB himself : he has been judged by many different courts, probably of different ‘colors’ and all of them have discharged him, so in my vision this is ‘political’ judiciary system (probably you have not read this on internet or on your country’s newspapers ..)
Yes, he is rich, and he can pay he best lawyers, but also mafia godfathers are rich, but they are convicted. You can have whatever opinion on Italy and its citizens, but I think that making such statements on 60 milions persons demonstrate a very primitive mind.
And if 30 millions are democratically electing SB, it is very naïve on your side to suppose that we have not yet reached our maturity.
Alitalia is Alitalia, Italy is Italy, we are # 8 among the most rich western countries (or close to, if you want - which country are you from, by the way ?) so most probably we are not managing ourself as 60 millions of small Alitalia … !
Trust me, you have an exagereted opinion of yourself.
It always amazing to read comments on Italian things made from foreigners who most probably cannot read a word in Italian.
Yes , maybe SB has been indicted 350 times, but he has always been discharged except in 2 cases which personally I consider doubtful…. This says it all not on SB, but on the judiciary system in Italy – very poorly efficient if ,after prosecuting a person 350 times, it do not obtain the expected results. And it says all on the vision that some part of the judiciary system has on SB himself : he has been judged by many different courts, probably of different ‘colors’ and all of them have discharged him, so in my vision this is ‘political’ judiciary system (probably you have not read this on internet or on your country’s newspapers ..)
Yes, he is rich, and he can pay he best lawyers, but also mafia godfathers are rich, but they are convicted. You can have whatever opinion on Italy and its citizens, but I think that making such statements on 60 milions persons demonstrate a very primitive mind.
And if 30 millions are democratically electing SB, it is very naïve on your side to suppose that we have not yet reached our maturity.
Alitalia is Alitalia, Italy is Italy, we are # 8 among the most rich western countries (or close to, if you want - which country are you from, by the way ?) so most probably we are not managing ourself as 60 millions of small Alitalia … !
Trust me, you have an exagereted opinion of yourself.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: EU
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Little magazine “the economist” has an article that is titled “How Alitalia symbolizes the ills of the euro-area’s third economy”.
The euro area's backmarker | Creeping along | The Economist .
You are suggesting that I am the only one saying anything ill about Italy and the mentality that allows people like SB to lead them, and companies like Alitalia to continue to operate, while they have no legitimate reason to do so.
In order to qualify for the Euro Italy met the requirement for exactly 5 months, and it has given the Euro zone the finger ever since. The Euro requirement states that the National Debt can be no greater than 60% of GDP. Many don’t meet this requirement, but Italy is showing particular scorn. Germany is at 65%, France at 64.2%, the Netherlands at 50%. Italy is the worst of the lot at 107% of GDP. This national shame is harming the Euro’s value by undermining its intrinsic value. But as I stated before the discussion is useless, I have stated that I am disgusted by the way this is unfolding. People get the government they deserve, so that says enough. Best of luck in that mess, in Northern Europe we roll our eyes into the back of our heads when we see the way things are done in that country. What always comes to mind when I think of Italy is “Style above substance”. If the place was located in the Caribbean it would justly qualify as a banana republic. I am signing off this discussion. I have been clear enough.
el#, just to put things in perspective. Per capita GDP makes Italy's rank 21 in the world. Just a number game there. Anyway laterz.
The euro area's backmarker | Creeping along | The Economist .
You are suggesting that I am the only one saying anything ill about Italy and the mentality that allows people like SB to lead them, and companies like Alitalia to continue to operate, while they have no legitimate reason to do so.
In order to qualify for the Euro Italy met the requirement for exactly 5 months, and it has given the Euro zone the finger ever since. The Euro requirement states that the National Debt can be no greater than 60% of GDP. Many don’t meet this requirement, but Italy is showing particular scorn. Germany is at 65%, France at 64.2%, the Netherlands at 50%. Italy is the worst of the lot at 107% of GDP. This national shame is harming the Euro’s value by undermining its intrinsic value. But as I stated before the discussion is useless, I have stated that I am disgusted by the way this is unfolding. People get the government they deserve, so that says enough. Best of luck in that mess, in Northern Europe we roll our eyes into the back of our heads when we see the way things are done in that country. What always comes to mind when I think of Italy is “Style above substance”. If the place was located in the Caribbean it would justly qualify as a banana republic. I am signing off this discussion. I have been clear enough.
el#, just to put things in perspective. Per capita GDP makes Italy's rank 21 in the world. Just a number game there. Anyway laterz.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And if 30 millions are democratically electing SB, it is very naïve on your side to suppose that we have not yet reached our maturity.
Alitalia is Alitalia, Italy is Italy, we are # 8 among the most rich western countries (or close to, if you want - which country are you from, by the way ?) so most probably we are not managing ourself as 60 millions of small Alitalia … !
Trust me, you have an exagereted opinion of yourself.
Alitalia is Alitalia, Italy is Italy, we are # 8 among the most rich western countries (or close to, if you want - which country are you from, by the way ?) so most probably we are not managing ourself as 60 millions of small Alitalia … !
Trust me, you have an exagereted opinion of yourself.
As to Italy's wealth I'd go online ASPA if I were you. You might be surprised.
There's a large italian community here in Australia and not one of its members would want to go back I tell you.
Beautifull place, full of art and flair, just a mad house to live in where every one only thinks of himself.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Both Emispheres
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me Myself, your post is just one more in the list of 'trite, uninformed, borderline to offensive' posts.
If I was to mention certain shameful facts about the past and present of some very major countries of this world, including Australia, you would have all the right to tell me to f*ck off. Sure I might be biased as well, but differently from you, I know when to keep my mouth shut and I use respect to any nationality.
Or, to take opposite approach, I could mention many many things that make me proud of being Italian, without even including dead artists or inventors. Still, I think it's irrelevant.
Otterman: you reference to banana republic (just another overused cliche') disqualifies any rational sentence you wrote so far. Quoting Wikipedia "As estimates and assumptions have to be made, the results produced by different organizations for the same country tend to differ, sometimes substantially. PPP figures are estimates rather than hard facts, and should be used with caution".
And please also remember that Berlusconi still has many oppositors just like Bush, Sarkozy, or any other leader have. Respected analists miserably fails when it comes to Italy and other complicated matters, and you expect to do better when in all likeliness you haven't spent more than two weeks here ?
I'm not a nationalist and I criticize my own country a lot, at the same I don't tolerate indiscriminate bashing and general BS that is being spread here.
If I was to mention certain shameful facts about the past and present of some very major countries of this world, including Australia, you would have all the right to tell me to f*ck off. Sure I might be biased as well, but differently from you, I know when to keep my mouth shut and I use respect to any nationality.
Or, to take opposite approach, I could mention many many things that make me proud of being Italian, without even including dead artists or inventors. Still, I think it's irrelevant.
Otterman: you reference to banana republic (just another overused cliche') disqualifies any rational sentence you wrote so far. Quoting Wikipedia "As estimates and assumptions have to be made, the results produced by different organizations for the same country tend to differ, sometimes substantially. PPP figures are estimates rather than hard facts, and should be used with caution".
And please also remember that Berlusconi still has many oppositors just like Bush, Sarkozy, or any other leader have. Respected analists miserably fails when it comes to Italy and other complicated matters, and you expect to do better when in all likeliness you haven't spent more than two weeks here ?
I'm not a nationalist and I criticize my own country a lot, at the same I don't tolerate indiscriminate bashing and general BS that is being spread here.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion, the fact is most non-Italians have a poor regard for Italy's business and political structures. Thats a problem for Italy to address, but throwing abuse to anyone who states a common perception won't help at all.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I frankly hope that the place where you work will be heavily damaged by having AZ around.
I also hope that your sadness will be much deeper when your customers will become ours and you will be pushed out of businness.
You might then find a new job in the new AZ and enjoy all our "privileges".
I also hope that your sadness will be much deeper when your customers will become ours and you will be pushed out of businness.
You might then find a new job in the new AZ and enjoy all our "privileges".
Why do people sound so biased on this topic ?? because what has been given us to see in the last few months is just so pathetically tragic. You want to be taken seriously ?? Then act seriously. If SAS ever bites the dust, you will never read the kind of comments that have been made on AZ. If you wonder why, take a trip to Scandinavia. One might not be crazy about the climate but............everyhing works there, period !
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bali, Indonesia
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alitalia is the issue, not Italy
you seem a bit too attached to the western habit of being confrontational all the time.
Also, as an earlier poster has noted, all democratic countries get the Government they deserve and SB was re-elected in full knowledge of what he is.
No, my issue is just with Alitalia itself. It's a waste of space and should be allowed to RIP. This is a fat lazy inefficient Company whose staff are still living in a bygone era. My view is simply that any fat lazy inefficient Company, airline or widget manufacturer wether it be Italian, German, British or whatever, should be subject to market forces and go out of business. Put a large dose of abuse of taxpayers and some corruption involving the "Elite" on top of that and you have what represents the central thesis of my issue.
Alitalia has no right to exist and it should be allowed to fold so the industry can get on with sorting itself out. Ultimately, Europe probably only needs 3 legacy carriers plus some using newer business models, low-cost etc.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OMG
I have watched and read this whole discussion with disbelief, anger and much sadness.
I will declare an interest i am half British, half Italian I have a south american partner so yes I am biased.
Quite frankly those of you who are slagging off Italians or Italy as a country or people are racist!
No discussion, simple fact is you are!
Racism has many definitions, the most common and widely accepted being that members of one race consider themselves intrinsically superior to members of other races.
It is acceptable for anyone to be critical of another nation or people it is not acceptable to be rude and offensive.
Italy has many problems and Italians know it, they elect SB because if nothing else he provides stability, a country with over 50 parliaments in 60 years needs it. He stands up for Italy in many respects, he is their Maggie.
Why does Italy have such problems, well listen, if any of you are that clever to be able to answer that in a few short sentences, you are wasting your time here and we should all instantly nominate you for a nobel prize.
The few hundred, possibly 1000 Italians I have met have no more in common with each other than a chav and a lord, or a redneck and a manhattanite.
A people get the government they deserve???? I pity America, UK, Germany, France, China, Cuba etc etc. because no government is perfect, Italy just after the war was a poor country mostly agricultural, however now it is one of the worlds leading economies. The UK has in fact made less gains in the same period.
Now back to the subject, Alitalia, why should it fold why are some people so desperate for it to fold and thousands of people be unemployed? because of bad service? or state subsidy? or because it has an Italian flag on the tail what is it?
I have a feeling that the 'economists" amongst us just have a feeling that it is "unfair" that Alitalia is still around it offends their sense of correctness and this isn't how things should be every other airline has to stand on its own two feet why should the Italians get away with it?
Well I say lets give them a chance, there will be no direct government control (no, a government cannot make a wealthy individual or company waste and lose money) because if we don't give them a chance we should also have been banging on BA and Air France's doors amongst others in years gone by, because they too were loss making government inefficient subsidised national flag carriers but whilst they were they came up with the most magnificent of all commercial planes. There is a place and a time for everything, Italy like every other country gets there at its own pace, I want a europe full of individual nations not clones of the UK, America or France
I for one love flying because it enables me to visit other places and countries and meet new people surely that is so much better than sitting in a glass house throwing stones?
I will declare an interest i am half British, half Italian I have a south american partner so yes I am biased.
Quite frankly those of you who are slagging off Italians or Italy as a country or people are racist!
No discussion, simple fact is you are!
Racism has many definitions, the most common and widely accepted being that members of one race consider themselves intrinsically superior to members of other races.
It is acceptable for anyone to be critical of another nation or people it is not acceptable to be rude and offensive.
Italy has many problems and Italians know it, they elect SB because if nothing else he provides stability, a country with over 50 parliaments in 60 years needs it. He stands up for Italy in many respects, he is their Maggie.
Why does Italy have such problems, well listen, if any of you are that clever to be able to answer that in a few short sentences, you are wasting your time here and we should all instantly nominate you for a nobel prize.
The few hundred, possibly 1000 Italians I have met have no more in common with each other than a chav and a lord, or a redneck and a manhattanite.
A people get the government they deserve???? I pity America, UK, Germany, France, China, Cuba etc etc. because no government is perfect, Italy just after the war was a poor country mostly agricultural, however now it is one of the worlds leading economies. The UK has in fact made less gains in the same period.
Now back to the subject, Alitalia, why should it fold why are some people so desperate for it to fold and thousands of people be unemployed? because of bad service? or state subsidy? or because it has an Italian flag on the tail what is it?
I have a feeling that the 'economists" amongst us just have a feeling that it is "unfair" that Alitalia is still around it offends their sense of correctness and this isn't how things should be every other airline has to stand on its own two feet why should the Italians get away with it?
Well I say lets give them a chance, there will be no direct government control (no, a government cannot make a wealthy individual or company waste and lose money) because if we don't give them a chance we should also have been banging on BA and Air France's doors amongst others in years gone by, because they too were loss making government inefficient subsidised national flag carriers but whilst they were they came up with the most magnificent of all commercial planes. There is a place and a time for everything, Italy like every other country gets there at its own pace, I want a europe full of individual nations not clones of the UK, America or France
I for one love flying because it enables me to visit other places and countries and meet new people surely that is so much better than sitting in a glass house throwing stones?
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: leafy suburbs
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
British Airways/Alitalia
I know it is "Sky News" but this is their evening headline
BA May Seek Tie-Up With Alitalia If Carrier's Restructuring Deal Goes Ahead | Business | Sky News
BA would be mad to get involved, even after a restructure. It would always be bogged down by labour laws.
In the present situation, BA should avoid any involvement with Alitalia. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!
BA May Seek Tie-Up With Alitalia If Carrier's Restructuring Deal Goes Ahead | Business | Sky News
BA would be mad to get involved, even after a restructure. It would always be bogged down by labour laws.
In the present situation, BA should avoid any involvement with Alitalia. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frankly I must say that reading most of these messages about Alitalia and Italy left me without a word.
I am a first officer for Alitalia, actually on maternity leave, with licence and type rating expired: italian law doesn't permit me to return to work until my son is 1 year old, so all I can do is HOPE they will hire me in the newco.
It makes me very happy to read that people think this is a joke!
In 8 years of Alitalia I did my job everyday like many of you in the BIG COOL companies: my fault was having CEOs that would close flight that were full and leaving others that were empty, that would pay more than market price for services, that would be always prone to political interest (Mr Mengozzi was the first to close up everything and now he is advisor for Air France), etc etc.
What was I supposed to do? I just did my job like all of you, flying at my best, studying....
Now someone comes and say that to be good Alitalia has to close down half flights, my basic wage (if I'll have one) starts from 847 euros and the first 55 flight hours will be paid at 13,5 euros and will be fixed for the first 8 years, I'll be having 10 days off in winter and 8 in summer (from May to October) and only 2 of them will be sure has the others can be moved as airline desires, that in 30 days they can move me from Rome to Venice to Catania or Bologna or Milan or Turin and most of all my union contract will be discussed not by my union but by the same unions for ground workers and fight attendants ( all my respect for their job)!
And you still think it is a joke! I always hope for you that this won't be taken as an example in the eu!
I am a first officer for Alitalia, actually on maternity leave, with licence and type rating expired: italian law doesn't permit me to return to work until my son is 1 year old, so all I can do is HOPE they will hire me in the newco.
It makes me very happy to read that people think this is a joke!
In 8 years of Alitalia I did my job everyday like many of you in the BIG COOL companies: my fault was having CEOs that would close flight that were full and leaving others that were empty, that would pay more than market price for services, that would be always prone to political interest (Mr Mengozzi was the first to close up everything and now he is advisor for Air France), etc etc.
What was I supposed to do? I just did my job like all of you, flying at my best, studying....
Now someone comes and say that to be good Alitalia has to close down half flights, my basic wage (if I'll have one) starts from 847 euros and the first 55 flight hours will be paid at 13,5 euros and will be fixed for the first 8 years, I'll be having 10 days off in winter and 8 in summer (from May to October) and only 2 of them will be sure has the others can be moved as airline desires, that in 30 days they can move me from Rome to Venice to Catania or Bologna or Milan or Turin and most of all my union contract will be discussed not by my union but by the same unions for ground workers and fight attendants ( all my respect for their job)!
And you still think it is a joke! I always hope for you that this won't be taken as an example in the eu!
short flights long nights
Thread Starter
as I started this thread,,about Alitalia's problems, not as a slagging match, can we please,please get back on track, or I will delete it!
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: holland
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aleaz
first of all ,congrats with your little boy
could you tell me what the latest pay proposals were and if it is true that captains have succeeded in landing a different deal.
and if this stands to be correct ,do you still have a united pilot front ?
greetings warff
p.s:buona fortuna to the ali pilots
first of all ,congrats with your little boy
could you tell me what the latest pay proposals were and if it is true that captains have succeeded in landing a different deal.
and if this stands to be correct ,do you still have a united pilot front ?
greetings warff
p.s:buona fortuna to the ali pilots
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Booking
I want Alitalia to be transformed into a modern proud financially succesful company.
So for the first time I am gonna book a flight with Alitalia to Sao Paulo in December, anyone think I am mad?
I can see a scenario where my GF is gonna kill me for not getting her home for Christmas but it should be fun and I have always wanted to spend Christmas day in an airport
On a serious note does anyone know if an airline cancels a route but has bookings would the flights be transferred to a partner airline or would a refund be made and then you have to find a ticket yourself.
Its just I always prefer flying Air France,sat back in cattle class I just prefer the 2-4-2 configuration on their A340 to every one else's 3-3-3, if I have to spend 12 hours in the air I prefer to have only one person that I know leaning on me the whole flight.
Come on Alitalia now I really am scared I could lose my money get stranded in Milan (not so bad) and get a year of silent treatment, all because I like to see a little green white and red on a tail fin (well red white and blue does get so boring especially at lhr and cdg)
Now would be an amazing time for anyone who still has a job at Alitalia to prove just how good they are, and turn AZ around prove the doubters wrong, lets face it, its the Italian way leave everything to the last minute, make everyone believe you are down and out, then produce something incredible!
So for the first time I am gonna book a flight with Alitalia to Sao Paulo in December, anyone think I am mad?
I can see a scenario where my GF is gonna kill me for not getting her home for Christmas but it should be fun and I have always wanted to spend Christmas day in an airport
On a serious note does anyone know if an airline cancels a route but has bookings would the flights be transferred to a partner airline or would a refund be made and then you have to find a ticket yourself.
Its just I always prefer flying Air France,sat back in cattle class I just prefer the 2-4-2 configuration on their A340 to every one else's 3-3-3, if I have to spend 12 hours in the air I prefer to have only one person that I know leaning on me the whole flight.
Come on Alitalia now I really am scared I could lose my money get stranded in Milan (not so bad) and get a year of silent treatment, all because I like to see a little green white and red on a tail fin (well red white and blue does get so boring especially at lhr and cdg)
Now would be an amazing time for anyone who still has a job at Alitalia to prove just how good they are, and turn AZ around prove the doubters wrong, lets face it, its the Italian way leave everything to the last minute, make everyone believe you are down and out, then produce something incredible!
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bali, Indonesia
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prefer the Stock Market for thrills
So for the first time I am gonna book a flight with Alitalia to Sao Paulo in December, anyone think I am mad?