Alitalia (Merged)

[Gio15]

cheap BA tickets via Milan

If AZ stops intercontinental flights it will be the end of my cheap club fares to Cape Town on BA via Milan I have used BA several times to fly to Cape Town going from Milan as the price is much lower. London Cape Town direct on BA for my next planned trip departing on the 17th and returning on 21st is £4,541 and BA from Milan £2,718. A similar pricing strategy can be found on most intercontinental destinations. My be one of the reasons AZ is not able no make a profit is that there has been a coordinated effort by several other carriers to dump cheap busiess fares in AZ italian market for several years.

[philipat]

Airline Reality

My be one of the reasons AZ is not able no make a profit is that there has been a coordinated effort by several other carriers to dump cheap busiess fares in AZ italian market for several years.

Welcome to international aviation. You don't think that all airlines dump seats in someone else's backyard, rather than their own?

[Longhitter]

The opera continues, gotta love the invitation to FR pilots to apply and the message to AZ pilots to apply for a job in FR if they don't like what's on offer with CAI:

ANSA.it - News in English - CAI stands firm on Alitalia staff

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and...................

The opera continues, gotta love the invitation to FR pilots to apply and the message to AZ pilots to apply for a job in FR if they don't like what's on offer with CAI:

As I have been saying. This was inevitable and is the only thing that CAI can do at this stage. The only issue would be wether, after having refused to accept reality for so long, AZ pilots would be welcome at FR or any other major carrier?

[main_dog]

Groan

after having refused to accept reality for so long, AZ pilots

AZ pilots work as hard or harder and for less money than all comparable EU majors, and while the unions representing them have not helped them or their image, they are NOT the cause of the present disaster, no matter what the italian government or CAI would have you believe.

They have been subjected to a merciless media campaign (which has clearly worked even on people who should know better, ie fellow pilots)

They have seen their airline deteriorate from a world-class major to a hobbling medium-sized carrier in the last 10/15 years, and are now being presented with a sign-or-be-fired contract with a number of extremely unpalatable conditions attached.

They're bloody right to be demanding more from a government and Prime Minister who based part of his recent victorious campaign on promises that AZ would remain Italian and that he had a better plan than the AF one which was "too harsh".

Specifically with regards to your post, philipat, ex-AZ pilots have been welcomed into CX, EK and any other number of world-class airlines... even the industrial relations bogey-man himself (MOL) has claimed in the past he would welcome AZ pilots with open arms.

The question is not whether AZ pilots would be acceptable, rather will any jobs be available to anyone in the present economic climate.

In this sense AZ pilots are playing a very dangerous game... but at this point they are so frustrated they are willing to risk it all.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and....................

The question is not whether AZ pilots would be acceptable, rather will any jobs be available to anyone in the present economic climate.

Good luck with the applications to FR, which still seems to be viable in the current economic conditions. This thread is starting to go round in circles?

[main_dog]

yep mate...

You're right... we're starting to beat a dead horse.

Good luck to AZ flight crew, most of them deserve it.

MD

[Hussar 54]

Philipat

I agree with you almost entirely.....

But AZ's business model is the same as most other legacy carriers - where AZ seem to fail is the inability to do it cost-efficiently....For whatever reasons, but mainly due to criminally high priced sub-contracted services ( as pointed out earlier ) which is not and never has been the responsibilty of the vast majority of AZ employees...

And I think I'd take issue with your seeming to stuff AZ crew in so many posts....We currently have two ex AZ crew sub-contracting and talking to them over a beer every now and then, they have managed to convince me ( at least ) that the T&C's for AZ crew are actually slightly worse than I know exist at BA / LH / AF-KL where I have many friends and business contacts...

So maybe less finger pointing at AZ aircrew and lots more finger pointing at the corrupt Politicos and Management in what is going to be a difficult time for lots of honest and hard-working employees at AZ...

Other than that - I think you're spot-on....

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and...............

So maybe less finger pointing at AZ aircrew and lots more finger pointing at the corrupt Politicos and Management in what is going to be a difficult time for lots of honest and hard-working employees at AZ...

Actually, I have no problem with AZ crews but with the groups you mention and also the Crew Union(s) who, IMHO, are doing the flight crews no favours. This view, according to media reports, is shared by the flight crews who booed off stage the Union Head at a recent meeting in Rome.

It is well known that Italian Unions have a strong political Agenda and it would seem that this agenda is taking precedence over the interests of membership. Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the present situation, mostly wrongs, the Unions must accept that there is a new reality in the aviation business (Including Italy) and get on with the business of negotiating the best available deal for membership. The present stance just plays into the hands of the new Management, which will argue that an agreement was made with the Lead Unions and a contract offer will, therefore, be made on a "Take it or leave it" basis. Hence the offer to FR pilots to apply.

The intransigence, implicit or implied, suggests, at best, very poor media relations capability. There seems to be no serious attempt to conclude a mutually acceptable contract and the bad public image being created will be of poor service to AZ crew seeking alternative employment because these attitudes will have been established in the psyche of the Managements of other carriers.

[vanHorck]

Does anyone know what the next step is?

CAI have made a binding offer, which I guess needs to be either accepted or rejected by the majority shareholder? Is there a time line known for this?

The same regarding the 2nd partner, LH or AF. Any news there?

[flyzen]

EU approval,
must be mid november

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and.......

EU approval,
must be mid november

Despite being recognition of 2 illegal bailouts. Is it any wonder that the populations of Europe have grave concerns about the EU, it's Charter, inefficiency and waste.

[navigante]

Union-busting

This view, according to media reports, is shared by the flight crews who booed off stage the Union Head at a recent meeting in Rome.

Philipat you have a generally good handle on the subject (esp from a managerial point of view), but not being Italian or living in Italy you probably cannot suspect the complexity of the issue. In fact (as always in Italy) NOTHING is as it appears on the surface.

AZ pilots are represented by no less than 7 (seven) unions (don't ask; we're Italian). Four of these are nation-wide unions that represent a diverse variety of workers (steel-workers taxi drivers etc) but only represent a minority of pilots. It is these unions that have deep political ties, and it is the leaders of these unions that have been booed by the vast majority of AZ crew.

Only two unions, ANPAC and UP, are purely cockpit crew associations (representing only pilots); it is no coincidence that the former is the only one of the 7 unions affiliated with IFALPA. Together, these two "unions" (they are in fact "professional associations") represent 75/80% of AZ pilots, and the bulk of AZ cockpit (and cabin) crew are RIGHT BEHIND THEM.

The main reason why they are still protesting (and rendering themselves unpopular with the uncomprehending world at large) is twofold:

Firstly, contrary to the agreements signed by CAI and the unions in september in the government's presence, the contract they actually came up with stated they would not re-hire any AZ pilots who are mothers of young children, parents of infirm/handicapped children or relatives of infirm/elderly parents or siblings, as well as pilots who happened to be on part-time contracts when the $&it hit the fan. In other words, anyone who by law would be allowed any leeway such as fewer nights away from home or a certain numbers of extra days off to take care of said family member.

Secondly, CAI wants the pilots to agree that the afore-mentioned professional associations would cease to exist, and all cockpit crew would henceforth be represented by one association representing everyone in the airline, from ground staff through CC to pilots. HOW'S THAT FOR UNION BUSTING!

Again, no coincidence that the main German and French cockpit crew associations (VC and SNPL, not to mention UK's BALPA) have expressed solidarity with ANPAC's much-maligned stance: they realize what's at stake here. This is not some childish tantrum or unreasonable defence of absurd privileges (those are almost all long gone): this is a defence of pilots' right to be represented by other pilots.

Regards,

Navigante

PS As an aside, if you believe what the Italian media says (mostly controlled either directly by Berlusconi or indirectly by the government), you may as well believe in the tooth fairy!

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and...........

PS As an aside, if you believe what the Italian media says (mostly controlled either directly by Berlusconi or indirectly by the government), you may as well believe in the tooth fairy!

Actually, I don't read Italian media, my reference was from The Guardian which usually has the integrity to check its souces and is certainly not owned by Uncle Sylvio.

Regarding the other content, I have lived in Indonesia for 30 years and, if you think that things in Italy are never what they seem, you should try Indonesia. Same issues, corruption and vested self-interests, so I think I understand very well.

I stand by my earlier post, especially regarding the self-interest of flight crews to better represent their case in the media. The International media are involved so don't pretend it's just Sylvio's hacks reporting.

[navigante]

sorry philipat...

... but to (mis) quote Yoda, living in Indonesia does not an expert on Italian labour relations make!

Point taken about the Guardian... and yes you're right generally UK media is fairly accurate while Italian media, er, isn't. However I'm not sure about what the article you mention referred to exactly... most likely the scenario was CGIL CISL or UIL representatives being booed off stage by ANPAC or UP pilots. Taken out of context that would seem to support the view that this is all somehow the unions' fault.

The fact remains that there is more than meets the eye in this affair... in my opinion right now it is more of an experiment in union-busting conducted by our government than anything else.

And while I'm no fan of unions (I see them more as a necessary evil), I stand with the AZ pilots on this one.

N.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and..................

And while I'm no fan of unions (I see them more as a necessary evil), I stand with the AZ pilots on this one.

Fair enough. But I still think they should be more proactive in using the International media to make their case. The Guardian piece I referenced is as below:

Business Feed Article | Business | guardian.co.uk

I'm sure that this is factually correct but not necessarily contextually accurate. That is my point, it needs explaining.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and.............

CGIL is a very large (the largest) union , connected with the left parties (opposition) in Italy, it represents mainly ground staff in AZ (maintenance and airport workers)
CISL is the second largest, connected with the governing party, it represents ground staff, airport and administration, some pilots.
UIL is the third, halfway between the governement and opposition, as well it represents mainly ground staff and a few pilots.
UGL is connected with the right parties, supporters of the governement, it represents, well... nearly nobody.
These four signed immediately an agreement with the potential buyers of AZ, having other, more important issues with the governement and using AZ as trading tool.
Part of the ground personnell and the vast majority (about 90%) of crews are represented by ANPAC/UP (pilots) AVIA/ANPAV (cabin crew) SDL (ground staff and cabin crew).
ANPAV has its core supporters between the cabin services managers, old enough to receive a golden handshake and retire.
That's why in September it joined the four main unions in reaching a quick deal with CAI (the group of potential buyers).

So many Unions. So little time?

Time for all to get real?

[philipat]

Union-busting

Perhaps might not be such a bad idea from any sensible intellectual perspective? The problem here is that everyone is stuck in the past. It's time to move on? The world is almost bankrupt so it might be a good time to regroup? In the US, the auto manufacturers, which were the most Unionised and most generous employers in the world (Pension plans, healthcare, bonuses etc.) are broke. This model is over and done. Finished.

Is it so difficult to understand that the world has changed, especially in the aviation business?

[el #]

Please let's not start again with the "how crazy italian people/politics/unions are, no wonder they're in trouble".

I-FORD made an noticeable effort to explain, among other things, the divisions in the "general workers" unions. However, that division most often do not cause much of a problem, in fact these unions are called "confederated".

The issue is that "flying crew" unions, (that just like in most countries, are on their own because this people so want), have seen "a swap of papers" since the preliminary agreement of one month ago. Right or wrong, they have taken the decision not to sign, that is courageous in itself, and must be respected, as right now, it's exactly their jobs at stake. So far, most pilots from other companies have supported that decision.

Many things still have to happen in this sage. Anyone is free to watch and criticize, but I will rebuke sweeping and uninformed statements especially when made by people with little exposure to italian history and politics.

[el #]

I see you make multiple posts philpat so I will not refrain from doing the same.

Once again, stop predicating like a messiah, telling to people/unions/world how they should behave or not in the "changed" scenario.

First of all, the western world has not changed much since the crisis. Poverty is more or less where it was before, the wars are not over, people is deeply divided on practically any matter.

Whatever change is due, it will not come from the masses as long they have enough food, TV/internet and drugs (legal or illegal one). For now, we have plenty of that in the western world.

Telling people that "they should realize times have changed" is a preposterous and totally useless statement. Suggesting that unions should shut up or cease, then is simply insulting, as until you can prove the contrary, they represent the victims and not the culprits for the current and past crisis.

Really, if you all have to say is "let's work together for a better world", there is no sentence more hypocritical, inapplicable, and generally fraud-smelling that can be said. Although, it still incredibly work at election time.