Alitalia (Merged)
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The primest candidate for oblivion for some months ( years / decades ) now , and yet........................
Maybe the bean-counters of the many recently demised carriers would be well-served learning from the masters of smoke and mirrors .........
Maybe the bean-counters of the many recently demised carriers would be well-served learning from the masters of smoke and mirrors .........
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Alt Flaps wrote ;
If you are a regular visitor to FCO, you can see that there are about a dozen 'individuals' wondering around the aircraft with radios & clipboards. They all appear VERY important and do lots of furtive communicating into hand held devices - but nobody is actually doing anything - it suprises me every time I see it
I suppose you would prefer the Ryanair model, with nobody wandering around, nobody on the end of the phone, cabin crew cleaning the aircraft and at the gate and everything sub contracted....
What is required is a balance of the two me thinks....
If you are a regular visitor to FCO, you can see that there are about a dozen 'individuals' wondering around the aircraft with radios & clipboards. They all appear VERY important and do lots of furtive communicating into hand held devices - but nobody is actually doing anything - it suprises me every time I see it
I suppose you would prefer the Ryanair model, with nobody wandering around, nobody on the end of the phone, cabin crew cleaning the aircraft and at the gate and everything sub contracted....
What is required is a balance of the two me thinks....
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Taking a chance
I may be treading on some toes here, but:
Am I the only one who sees Alitalia as a monstrosity, fed with (European) subsidy, managed by the unions, instead of managers, that should be downsized radically and union influence reduced to more believable levels to make it a profitable, healthy company?
Small companies who unfortunatly have not made it, such as XL, with aircrew tossed out, must be fuming at the mouth that such a company as Alitalia is still on artifical lifesupport, with help from the Italian government?
I do not say that Alitalia must go under, but it must rethink its strategy, and the unions influence must be downsized radically.
For the staff of Alitalia, this constant niggling about deatils must be frustrating, because they still do not know if they still have a job or not.
Good luck to the staff and lets hope something positive will come out in the end.
Am I the only one who sees Alitalia as a monstrosity, fed with (European) subsidy, managed by the unions, instead of managers, that should be downsized radically and union influence reduced to more believable levels to make it a profitable, healthy company?
Small companies who unfortunatly have not made it, such as XL, with aircrew tossed out, must be fuming at the mouth that such a company as Alitalia is still on artifical lifesupport, with help from the Italian government?
I do not say that Alitalia must go under, but it must rethink its strategy, and the unions influence must be downsized radically.
For the staff of Alitalia, this constant niggling about deatils must be frustrating, because they still do not know if they still have a job or not.
Good luck to the staff and lets hope something positive will come out in the end.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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I am quite surprised with the way these investors seem to focus on the sole T&Cs subject. Marketing, strategy, fleet do not seem to bother them at all. Wages at Alitalia are not outstandingly high. Some social aspects may need reconsidering (transportation from one base to another, holidays).
An airline can absolutely not rely on low salaries as a sole operating policy/strategy. Salaries are only a fraction of the entire cost structure. And costs is one thing, turnover is another. My bet is turnover will be THE tricy problem at AZ.
An airline can absolutely not rely on low salaries as a sole operating policy/strategy. Salaries are only a fraction of the entire cost structure. And costs is one thing, turnover is another. My bet is turnover will be THE tricy problem at AZ.
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Please correct me if I am wrong , but I hear that many staff of Alitalia actually do no ( or very little ) work at all , but the unions support them anyway ( in fact , these people probably spend their lives running the union ? ). They must all vote for the government every time ? Just like Cyprus , the other smoke and mirrors outfit .
We are all very jealous of these guys , having endless government support to do what the hell they like . This is why the majority of pilots in these outfits treat their flying 'job' as a necessary evil to subsidise their other commercial activities.
It would be refreshing ( but extremely unlikely ) that the crew had some professional pride in restoring some order in their National airline .
Fat chance.
Someone please ban the unions.
We are all very jealous of these guys , having endless government support to do what the hell they like . This is why the majority of pilots in these outfits treat their flying 'job' as a necessary evil to subsidise their other commercial activities.
It would be refreshing ( but extremely unlikely ) that the crew had some professional pride in restoring some order in their National airline .
Fat chance.
Someone please ban the unions.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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ROME, Oct 31 (Reuters) - The Italian investor consortium planning to buy Alitalia has decided not to present a binding offer after failing to reach a deal with the carrier's pilot and flight assistant unions, a source close to the talks said.
CAI, the group of Italian investors, was initially expected to make the offer by Friday.
EagleStar
CAI, the group of Italian investors, was initially expected to make the offer by Friday.
EagleStar
cue many important people making dire warnings about how Alitalia will survive only 72 more hours and lots of noise in the press, followed by lots of handshakes within 48 hours and a belief that all has been solved (for the time being !)
Would be a bit boring if everything just happened behind closed doors....
Would be a bit boring if everything just happened behind closed doors....
Join Date: May 2006
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Putting the hyperbole, hysteria and hearsay to one side for a moment, it appears from the report that what actually happened was that the investor group presented the unions with the new contracts and the unions asked for time to read and consider the contracts. This seems like a reasonable request to me and the investors seem, upon reflection, to have had the wisdom to allow them some time for this. Perhaps both sides realised that contracts signed without consideration have very little chance of being effectively enforced. I realise that I might be wrong but I think we should hope for the best rather than the worst outcome.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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...some news from the inside...
1) No part time people rehiring (from the bad company to the Newco)
2) No mothers with children (up to two years they fly only daytime)
3)) No people with law # 104 (if you have a disabled children or a needy old parent you have to have some more days off duty)
4) You must relocate anywhere in Italy in 20 days no commuting allowed.(i.e. no free passes and you must have a phone number,no mobile)
5) Cpts are considered as executive managers (i.e. they can fire you anytime..say the plane is not within mel...you go or else)
6)The all deal has been from the beginning "take it or leave it" in order to get to this. (i.e. Cai could not care less about having a profitable airline they did what they have been told to do)
7) The game that has been played with AZ has very little to do with the company (i.e in some aspects you guys are right nothing it is what it seems here)
8) The sad truth is that now all the media (very well under control) will blame us (cockpit and cabin) for what happened.
AZ Cpt. (still)
1) No part time people rehiring (from the bad company to the Newco)
2) No mothers with children (up to two years they fly only daytime)
3)) No people with law # 104 (if you have a disabled children or a needy old parent you have to have some more days off duty)
4) You must relocate anywhere in Italy in 20 days no commuting allowed.(i.e. no free passes and you must have a phone number,no mobile)
5) Cpts are considered as executive managers (i.e. they can fire you anytime..say the plane is not within mel...you go or else)
6)The all deal has been from the beginning "take it or leave it" in order to get to this. (i.e. Cai could not care less about having a profitable airline they did what they have been told to do)
7) The game that has been played with AZ has very little to do with the company (i.e in some aspects you guys are right nothing it is what it seems here)
8) The sad truth is that now all the media (very well under control) will blame us (cockpit and cabin) for what happened.
AZ Cpt. (still)
Join Date: May 2007
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md4490:
media is under control by whom? Berlusconi has most TVs (not all) but the main newspapers are agaisnt him and have no problem in reporting things more or less as they are.
If some unions are poorly represented by media is because they never did anything for this to change, actually they could never be confortable with their matter/treatment being public domain.
We've to resort to some insider to know a short list of issues that honestly doesn't seem enough to justify a total refusal by the unions. Itis legitimate to think that the real ones are actually not being disclosed.
Seem like that certain people have a major problem accpeting a shift from a past to a new situation where the only priority is survival.
media is under control by whom? Berlusconi has most TVs (not all) but the main newspapers are agaisnt him and have no problem in reporting things more or less as they are.
If some unions are poorly represented by media is because they never did anything for this to change, actually they could never be confortable with their matter/treatment being public domain.
We've to resort to some insider to know a short list of issues that honestly doesn't seem enough to justify a total refusal by the unions. Itis legitimate to think that the real ones are actually not being disclosed.
Seem like that certain people have a major problem accpeting a shift from a past to a new situation where the only priority is survival.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Summary of Situation
It would be great if newcomers could at least take the trouble to read the complete thread.
To summarise:
To summarise:
- AZ doesn't deserve to be still flying, it is a hopeless, over-staffed, inefficient basket case which is still around only because of repeated Government (Aka the Taxpayer) subsidies which are also illegal under EU law. It should fold and get out of the way so that the industry can get on with re-structuring to achieve a sustainable (Profitable) business model. And, to (mis) quote a post above, if this includes low cost carriers with crews cleaning cabins and turning aircraft around in 27 minutes, then that is part of the new reality, which many folks don't seem to grasp.
- Uncle Sylvio and the boys saw another opportunity to make some money and further appease the Unions by sticking all the retrenchment costs onto the Government (Aka the taxpayer) together with all the accumulated losses and other costs, whilst purchasing the valuable assets (Newer aircraft, LHR landing slots etc.) for a song. Nice work if you can get it. All this dressed up in smoke and mirrors, red white and green. Isn't Nationalism a wonderful thing? How stupid taxpayers can be in third world countries?
- Unfortunately, Ryanair complained to the EU which is now suggesting that CAI (CIA would be nicer) might be forced to pick up AT LEAST the last 300 Million Euro rescue subsidy by the Italian Government (Aka the taxpayer). This also raised the possibility of liability for the final Euro 2 Billion Government (Aka the taxpayer) subsidy in connection with charging the losses and retrenchment costs to the Government (Aka the taxpayer). CAI exit, stage left, because, with these potential liabilities, there are no no easy/corrupt profits and "Flipping" a minority share to LH/AF-KL to get back most of the "Investment" would be impossible.
- People bitch and moan about Ryanair, which is rapidly expanding into the vacuum in the domestic Italian market. SO why is it that FR flies more passengers than any other carrier within the EU? People don't like it because they wish that they could have better service, but the bottom line is that they are not prepared to pay for more than just a bus ride. At the end of the day, you get what you pay for and this is the reality of air travel in 2008. I'm not saying I favour FR because, as I live in Asia, most of my flights are longhaul and I fly SQ/CX/TG First/Suite Class. But that's because I can afford it and am prepared to pay for it. Repeat, you get what you pay for. There IS room in the market for Premium carriers that get it right.
- Bottom line, the industry is changing and polarising. Nobody can stop this inevitable trend. SO, as they say, "Lead, follow or get out of the way"
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AZ Bunny goes on, and on, and................
tried to force down the throats of the pilots a contract that was inedible.
Anyway, never mind, Ryanair will soon be looking to recruit new pilots in Italy. Hmm, I wonder what their contracts are like compared to AZ?!!
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AZ Bunny goes on and on and.............
It's like comparing apples with pears.
Fact is, when AZ goes under, there probably won't be longhaul flights out of Italy, except via FRA/LHR/MUC/AMS/CDG etc. Perhaps a few BA/LH/AF flights MXP/FCO to JFK and a few others
So best get used to FR. It's not so bad coming home to the family every night is it? Alternatively, there will be jobs with other EU longhaul carriers, although AZ on the CV might not be that attractive to Private employers focused on the bottom line?
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Ho hum................From the BBC.
-----------------------------------------
Alitalia gets last-minute rescue
An Italian investors' group has said it will go ahead with a rescue offer for the airline Alitalia, despite the lack of agreement with some trade unions.
The group, the Cai, said it had made a binding offer - shortly after walking out of negotiations over the airline.
Talks had earlier broken down because only four out of Alitalia's nine unions had agreed to the Cai's terms.
The Cai had set a Friday night deadline for a deal to be reached over securing Alitalia's future.
Without a binding rescue offer, Alitalia would have been forced to seek new funding within weeks to keep itself going - or risk bankruptcy.
The investors, the Compagnia Aerea Italiana (Cai), have been holding lengthy talks with Alitalia's trade unions over job cuts and other savings.
The unions had accepted Cai's takeover of Alitalia in principle - but the airline's pilot and flight staff unions have not agreed to the Cai's detailed terms.
Please turn on JavaScript. Media requires JavaScript to play.
Talks to save Alitalia
Bankruptcy risk
The Cai group's earlier decision to walk away from the talks was the second time it had pulled back from making a bid, threatening the future of the cash-strapped carrier.
During the lengthy talks, both sides accused the other of being inflexible.
The Cai had always stressed that union backing was a pre-requisite for making a binding offer.
The group has pledged to inject more than 1bn euros ($1.27bn; £789m) into Alitalia and merge it with Italy's much smaller Air One airline.
"Everything is ready as far as Cai is concerned to complete a very difficult rescue," said Corrado Passera, the CEO of the Italian bank Intesa Sanpaolo, which helped draft the rescue plan.
The negotiations have been chaired by Gianni Letta, a senior aide to Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.
Mr Letta had warned the unions that the only alternative to the deal for Alitalia would be bankruptcy.
Keeping Alitalia alive was one of the main election planks on which Mr Berlusconi ran for office in April, and his government has since rewritten the bankruptcy laws to pave the way for a bail-out by the Cai consortium.
Story from BBC NEWS:
-----------------------------------------
Alitalia gets last-minute rescue
An Italian investors' group has said it will go ahead with a rescue offer for the airline Alitalia, despite the lack of agreement with some trade unions.
The group, the Cai, said it had made a binding offer - shortly after walking out of negotiations over the airline.
Talks had earlier broken down because only four out of Alitalia's nine unions had agreed to the Cai's terms.
The Cai had set a Friday night deadline for a deal to be reached over securing Alitalia's future.
Without a binding rescue offer, Alitalia would have been forced to seek new funding within weeks to keep itself going - or risk bankruptcy.
The investors, the Compagnia Aerea Italiana (Cai), have been holding lengthy talks with Alitalia's trade unions over job cuts and other savings.
The unions had accepted Cai's takeover of Alitalia in principle - but the airline's pilot and flight staff unions have not agreed to the Cai's detailed terms.
Please turn on JavaScript. Media requires JavaScript to play.
Talks to save Alitalia
Bankruptcy risk
The Cai group's earlier decision to walk away from the talks was the second time it had pulled back from making a bid, threatening the future of the cash-strapped carrier.
During the lengthy talks, both sides accused the other of being inflexible.
The Cai had always stressed that union backing was a pre-requisite for making a binding offer.
The group has pledged to inject more than 1bn euros ($1.27bn; £789m) into Alitalia and merge it with Italy's much smaller Air One airline.
"Everything is ready as far as Cai is concerned to complete a very difficult rescue," said Corrado Passera, the CEO of the Italian bank Intesa Sanpaolo, which helped draft the rescue plan.
The negotiations have been chaired by Gianni Letta, a senior aide to Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.
Mr Letta had warned the unions that the only alternative to the deal for Alitalia would be bankruptcy.
Keeping Alitalia alive was one of the main election planks on which Mr Berlusconi ran for office in April, and his government has since rewritten the bankruptcy laws to pave the way for a bail-out by the Cai consortium.
Story from BBC NEWS:
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Agreed. It's comparing a business model which works and is profitable with one that doesn't and isn't.
The difference is that while these other carriers privatized sometime in the 80s/90s (albeit with government retaining significant control in some cases, n'est-ce pas) and started focussing on cost and revenue (ie on profitable management), AZ remained wholly in the government's inept hands.
Governments in my country usually change every other year, and are world-famous for their inability to organize a piss-up at a brewery, let alone an airline... hence the current problem.
Take a look at AZ's balance sheet and you will notice that staff costs are actually substantially LOWER than that of other majors, while staff generally work just as hard (at least I can guarantee you the pilots do, though AZ headquarters office workers are legendary for their inability to lift a pen). HOWEVER you will also notice a HUGE expenditure for external services and procurements.
Follow the money trail and you will see that INEVITABLY the companies furnishing these over-priced services to AZ are owned by this minister's wife, that politician's brother-in-law, the other banker's son...
PLEASE stop falling for the old saw that AZ's woes are caused by its staff... I'm sure there may be plenty of room for improvement there, but the root cause is MANAGEMENT (ie govt), or lack therof.
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AZ Bunny goes on and on and.................
Take a look at AZ's balance sheet and you will notice that staff costs are actually substantially LOWER than that of other majors, while staff generally work just as hard (at least I can guarantee you the pilots do, though AZ headquarters office workers are legendary for their inability to lift a pen). HOWEVER you will also notice a HUGE expenditure for external services and procurements.
In summary, yes I fully agree that the problem is "Management" in its broadest sense. including inefficiency and corruption. In a sense, this IS a failed "Business model".
Incidentally, this type of financial information is from the P&L not the Balance sheet.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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relax mate
Believe me I have read the entire thread... my my it's easy to step on toes in this forum. 
Not intended as a criticism of your posts philipat... as a matter of fact as I-FORD mentioned, for one so far away you seem to have an unusually firm grasp of what's going on.
The point I wanted to drive home is: it's not flawed business model... because it's not a business in the first place! AZ, as most Alitalia pilots will tell you, is simply an Italian ministry that happens to have airplanes.
The workers, as you said, will pay the price as always.
Not intended as a criticism of your posts philipat... as a matter of fact as I-FORD mentioned, for one so far away you seem to have an unusually firm grasp of what's going on.
The point I wanted to drive home is: it's not flawed business model... because it's not a business in the first place! AZ, as most Alitalia pilots will tell you, is simply an Italian ministry that happens to have airplanes.
The workers, as you said, will pay the price as always.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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cant agree more
"a ministry with airplanes" that is the best description i have ever heard,
yes it is and it affected all of our lifes,
D.
(skymaster cadet, FR pilot, maybe NetJets Europe)
yes it is and it affected all of our lifes,
D.
(skymaster cadet, FR pilot, maybe NetJets Europe)