Alitalia (Merged)
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No sympathy from me in any way shape or form at the current non-sense that is taking place at Alitalia. They didn’t deserve the umpteenth last chance that they are currently operating under. And these work stoppages just proof these people don’t live in the same world that I do. Just watching the news should make everyone at Alitalia realize that they should be doing everything possible to make a success of the Nova Alitalia. Only then after the economy has picked up again will they have a defendable position to negotiate from.
Air France/KLM will not be putting money into Alitalia, if there is no reasonable chance of it showing a return on the investment. The alternatives are already in the works if this soap opera does not get resolved. And all it will mean is that the real hubs in Europe will get the long haul feed out of the north and the south of Italy. I believe the ball is totally in the court of the Alitalia employees, either shape up, or be prepared to disappear into insignificance.
Just hear that chest wound sucking.
Air France/KLM will not be putting money into Alitalia, if there is no reasonable chance of it showing a return on the investment. The alternatives are already in the works if this soap opera does not get resolved. And all it will mean is that the real hubs in Europe will get the long haul feed out of the north and the south of Italy. I believe the ball is totally in the court of the Alitalia employees, either shape up, or be prepared to disappear into insignificance.
Just hear that chest wound sucking.
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I will never cease to be amazed at how, even amongst aircrew, it is an article of faith that AZ's woes are due to its staff.
If you have not had the (sometimes dubious) pleasure of working for AZ or at least in Italy, with all due respect most of you have no idea what you're talking about.
Rant over.
If you have not had the (sometimes dubious) pleasure of working for AZ or at least in Italy, with all due respect most of you have no idea what you're talking about.
Rant over.
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. It is always someone elses fault. 
. These employees live in lala land. The bottom line is that this airline should have been liquidated, this last chance does not mean business as usual. When will the penny drop?
. Yeah everyone is ignorant!
. It is always someone elses fault. . These employees live in lala land. The bottom line is that this airline should have been liquidated, this last chance does not mean business as usual. When will the penny drop?. Yeah everyone is ignorant!
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Navigante
you'd do better putting all your energy into thinking of customer satisfaction and developing a normal business culture rather than defend the unions which have caused thousands of ill informed Alitalia staff to loose their jobs.
If you disagree, please explain how Newco staff can go on strike over labour conditions of a contract they've only just signed. You really think this helps the Newco startup and secures your future earnings?
you'd do better putting all your energy into thinking of customer satisfaction and developing a normal business culture rather than defend the unions which have caused thousands of ill informed Alitalia staff to loose their jobs.
If you disagree, please explain how Newco staff can go on strike over labour conditions of a contract they've only just signed. You really think this helps the Newco startup and secures your future earnings?
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Enlighten me!
During the last 12 years, almost every airline around the world had to make painful restructuring decisions and their employees had to accept new often harsh work rules, pay cuts, layoffs and even bankruptcies.
And how did Alitalia employees deal with this dire situation? Strike after strike after strike, year in year out. Never wanting to give an inch.
No one at XL or EOS or MAXjet or Silverjet and so many other now gone carriers went on strike when the going got tough, and I can guarantee you most of them would have happily given some of their pay or work conditions to keep their airlines flying.
Unfortunately, unlike Alitalia employees they never even got a chance to do that. So maybe it’s time for Alitalia’s employees to start behaving a bit more realistic. But I hear they went on strike again today!!!!! How appropriate. If I am so wrong with this observation, please enlighten me as to why!
And how did Alitalia employees deal with this dire situation? Strike after strike after strike, year in year out. Never wanting to give an inch.
No one at XL or EOS or MAXjet or Silverjet and so many other now gone carriers went on strike when the going got tough, and I can guarantee you most of them would have happily given some of their pay or work conditions to keep their airlines flying.
Unfortunately, unlike Alitalia employees they never even got a chance to do that. So maybe it’s time for Alitalia’s employees to start behaving a bit more realistic. But I hear they went on strike again today!!!!! How appropriate. If I am so wrong with this observation, please enlighten me as to why!
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Should never of got Air One invovled, and let the sinking ship sink with all on board.
As far as national airlines go, this is by far the worst one. I think it would have been far easier to let Air One get involved in Rome after AZ was sunk. (With LH back up while LH maintain the MXP hub).
As far as national airlines go, this is by far the worst one. I think it would have been far easier to let Air One get involved in Rome after AZ was sunk. (With LH back up while LH maintain the MXP hub).
Last edited by Jet22; 21st Jan 2009 at 07:10. Reason: typo
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Not much enlightenment here I'm afraid, but I'll try
It is widely-received wisdom that AZ somehow died due to the intransigence of its unions and staff. In truth this is about as reasonable as blaming the sinking of the Titanic on its dancing passengers, but I have found people often prefer simple answers to life's complicated questions, and don't like changing their minds.
I certainly don't propose to change anyone's mind with a few posts on PPRUNE! Moreover the public image AZ employees have at large is beyond redemption, and quite frankly in some cases this poor reputation (at least with regards customer service) is deserved.
I do not work for AZ. As a matter of fact I work for a UK company, but I have seen the situation from within and without. I understand that people who have not been exposed to Italy and our often devious way of doing business will not understand. Your opinion would be perfectly valid if we were dealing with a "normal" country and a privately-owned company geared towards making a profit from air transport, operating in a transparent clean capitalist environment. If this were the case it would be perfectly natural to look at these striking employees with horror.
In actual fact you are dealing with an unwieldy and corrupt government-owned ministry that just happens to have airplanes. In sixty years of history it has NEVER been effectively managed to make a profit, only to do political favours to the powers that be, employ friends of friends, and most of all grant extremely lucrative contracts for external procurements and consultancies (lucrative for those inevitably well-connected individuals who were the lucky recipients, almost always wives or relatives of politicians). There is no "business-culture" because it has never been a business.
Just look at the Malpensa fiasco if you need proof as to how political meddling can destroy an already weak company. For the last ten or fifteen years the rising power of the Northern League political party has determined AZ's move to unpopular and inefficient MXP (without closing Linate as would have been necessary). This was done for purely political reasons of course, and despite the fact that 80% of AZ employees lived in and around Rome, not to mention all of their maintenance facilities were in FCO (and by the way this tug-of-war is not over, even now our Northern League politicians are screaming blue murder at AZ's new found Romano-centrism; watch this space).
Air One, which was even more bankrupt than AZ, had the good fortune of owing serious money to a bank closely connected to the current government: thus Air One was amalgamated into the new AZ so their debts could be rolled into the "bad company" portion of AZ and paid off by the Italian taxpayer. It also helps when your major shareholder is the wife of Italy's erstwhile Transport Minister. Notice no AP pilots lost their jobs (although temp contracts have not been renewed) while approximately 800 AZ pilots are now walking the streets.
You will rarely catch me defending AZ's pilot unions as they were fairly well-aware of what was going on, nay, in some cases they participated in milking the cow dry. They are at the very least guilty of not forming a single pilot's union (which might have had a say) rather than the SEVEN unions that represented just the pilots. Must preserve those desk jobs for the boys.
However, the way in which the government have gone about this "privatization" seems designed to infuriate the numerous loyal and hard-working employees that (believe it or not) AZ was blessed with. An unclear policy as to who to keep and who to fire (with many alleged cases of mothers or carers of elderly/infirm arbitrarily excluded from the new company due to their rights to more nights at home under Italian law, and other unpleasantness), the openly sign-or-be-fired attitude and the shocking lack of aviation expertise in the sixteen "investors" that have been handed AZ on a silver platter AZ hardly help.
A quick look at the track-records of these so-called "patriots" should be enough to discourage any optimism as to AZ's future. Not to mention that as a nation we have handed one quarter of our country's air transport sector to the French for about a quarter of what AF had offered only a year ago, plus the Italian taxpayer got to foot the bill for the debts (see Vidal's article "Thank-you Silvio" on Les Echos Merci Silvio - AERIEN AIR FRANCE-KLM ALITALIA). The whole thing stinks to high heaven, and most of the remaining employees fear that they will be back to square one in a few months time, as has been the case with countless "bail-out and turn-around" plans these last few years. A simple "count your lucky stars you have a job and shut up" will not suffice for those who have witnessed first-hand the results of government mismanagement, fake attempts at privatization and cronyism (although I will grant you that striking won't help).
Italy, with its particular geography, far-flung immigrants and tourist attractions is the ideal place to make money with an airline. It is no coincidence that we are Ryanair's second market (and Easy's, I believe) and that even in this moment of global crisis AF, LH and BA were all vying for a piece of the action. As a country we have failed spectacularly at providing our citizens with a viable national airline.
As far as AZ personnel and specifically the pilots, they may not have helped the situation, but blaming them for this disaster is like blaming the fleas after the dog has been run over.
I certainly don't propose to change anyone's mind with a few posts on PPRUNE! Moreover the public image AZ employees have at large is beyond redemption, and quite frankly in some cases this poor reputation (at least with regards customer service) is deserved.
I do not work for AZ. As a matter of fact I work for a UK company, but I have seen the situation from within and without. I understand that people who have not been exposed to Italy and our often devious way of doing business will not understand. Your opinion would be perfectly valid if we were dealing with a "normal" country and a privately-owned company geared towards making a profit from air transport, operating in a transparent clean capitalist environment. If this were the case it would be perfectly natural to look at these striking employees with horror.
In actual fact you are dealing with an unwieldy and corrupt government-owned ministry that just happens to have airplanes. In sixty years of history it has NEVER been effectively managed to make a profit, only to do political favours to the powers that be, employ friends of friends, and most of all grant extremely lucrative contracts for external procurements and consultancies (lucrative for those inevitably well-connected individuals who were the lucky recipients, almost always wives or relatives of politicians). There is no "business-culture" because it has never been a business.
Just look at the Malpensa fiasco if you need proof as to how political meddling can destroy an already weak company. For the last ten or fifteen years the rising power of the Northern League political party has determined AZ's move to unpopular and inefficient MXP (without closing Linate as would have been necessary). This was done for purely political reasons of course, and despite the fact that 80% of AZ employees lived in and around Rome, not to mention all of their maintenance facilities were in FCO (and by the way this tug-of-war is not over, even now our Northern League politicians are screaming blue murder at AZ's new found Romano-centrism; watch this space).
Air One, which was even more bankrupt than AZ, had the good fortune of owing serious money to a bank closely connected to the current government: thus Air One was amalgamated into the new AZ so their debts could be rolled into the "bad company" portion of AZ and paid off by the Italian taxpayer. It also helps when your major shareholder is the wife of Italy's erstwhile Transport Minister. Notice no AP pilots lost their jobs (although temp contracts have not been renewed) while approximately 800 AZ pilots are now walking the streets.
You will rarely catch me defending AZ's pilot unions as they were fairly well-aware of what was going on, nay, in some cases they participated in milking the cow dry. They are at the very least guilty of not forming a single pilot's union (which might have had a say) rather than the SEVEN unions that represented just the pilots. Must preserve those desk jobs for the boys.
However, the way in which the government have gone about this "privatization" seems designed to infuriate the numerous loyal and hard-working employees that (believe it or not) AZ was blessed with. An unclear policy as to who to keep and who to fire (with many alleged cases of mothers or carers of elderly/infirm arbitrarily excluded from the new company due to their rights to more nights at home under Italian law, and other unpleasantness), the openly sign-or-be-fired attitude and the shocking lack of aviation expertise in the sixteen "investors" that have been handed AZ on a silver platter AZ hardly help.
A quick look at the track-records of these so-called "patriots" should be enough to discourage any optimism as to AZ's future. Not to mention that as a nation we have handed one quarter of our country's air transport sector to the French for about a quarter of what AF had offered only a year ago, plus the Italian taxpayer got to foot the bill for the debts (see Vidal's article "Thank-you Silvio" on Les Echos Merci Silvio - AERIEN AIR FRANCE-KLM ALITALIA). The whole thing stinks to high heaven, and most of the remaining employees fear that they will be back to square one in a few months time, as has been the case with countless "bail-out and turn-around" plans these last few years. A simple "count your lucky stars you have a job and shut up" will not suffice for those who have witnessed first-hand the results of government mismanagement, fake attempts at privatization and cronyism (although I will grant you that striking won't help).
Italy, with its particular geography, far-flung immigrants and tourist attractions is the ideal place to make money with an airline. It is no coincidence that we are Ryanair's second market (and Easy's, I believe) and that even in this moment of global crisis AF, LH and BA were all vying for a piece of the action. As a country we have failed spectacularly at providing our citizens with a viable national airline.
As far as AZ personnel and specifically the pilots, they may not have helped the situation, but blaming them for this disaster is like blaming the fleas after the dog has been run over.
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Navigante
I very much respect both your views as well as the effort you've taken to explain the situation.
In the press here it was reported that the strike was
1. called by the unions
2. due to dissatisfaction with both the recruiting process as well as the contracts of employment they had to sign
3. quite well endorsed by the staff
4. only the first strike and that other strikes are due
Whilst I understand what you wrote, can you enlighten me on the following:
Do these staff not feel they should either have refused to sign or put up if they did sign the new contract?
Do those staff not see the enormous damage they do to the restart by going on strike within a week of signing a contract of employment, and therefore to their own potential livelyhood?
I very much respect both your views as well as the effort you've taken to explain the situation.
In the press here it was reported that the strike was
1. called by the unions
2. due to dissatisfaction with both the recruiting process as well as the contracts of employment they had to sign
3. quite well endorsed by the staff
4. only the first strike and that other strikes are due
Whilst I understand what you wrote, can you enlighten me on the following:
Do these staff not feel they should either have refused to sign or put up if they did sign the new contract?
Do those staff not see the enormous damage they do to the restart by going on strike within a week of signing a contract of employment, and therefore to their own potential livelyhood?
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Well, I should let a current AZ employee answer that. However, the union that called the strike (SdL) does not to my knowledge represent any pilots nor cabin crew. If you remember AZ pilots were represented by no less than seven unions, you can imagine how many there are across the airline as a whole!
I suspect many employees, wary that refusing to adhere to the new contracts signified foregoing the right to unemployment benefits (ah yes, government blackmail at its finest), have reacted to the "sign the dotted line Jack or hit the road" ultimatum by signing and then digging in their heels.
Crazy perhaps, and certainly ineffectual, but like I say this whole "privatization" almost appears to have been specifically designed to irritate and frustrate employees, instead of instilling hope and faith in the incoming administration and encouraging loyalty and dedication to the new direction that needs to be taken. To a certain extent I think many staff are so furious, demoralized and wary of their new management that they are beyond caring.
To my mind it's all quite academic at this point... AZ is long dead. All I ask is for people to keep an open mind as to the causes of its demise, and pause for thought next time someone casually says, "ah yes, Alitalia, went bankrupt due to its staff, didn't it?"
I suspect many employees, wary that refusing to adhere to the new contracts signified foregoing the right to unemployment benefits (ah yes, government blackmail at its finest
), have reacted to the "sign the dotted line Jack or hit the road" ultimatum by signing and then digging in their heels. Crazy perhaps, and certainly ineffectual, but like I say this whole "privatization" almost appears to have been specifically designed to irritate and frustrate employees, instead of instilling hope and faith in the incoming administration and encouraging loyalty and dedication to the new direction that needs to be taken. To a certain extent I think many staff are so furious, demoralized and wary of their new management that they are beyond caring.
To my mind it's all quite academic at this point... AZ is long dead. All I ask is for people to keep an open mind as to the causes of its demise, and pause for thought next time someone casually says, "ah yes, Alitalia, went bankrupt due to its staff, didn't it?"
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Thanks Navigante
It s a complex problem I accept this and also the dirty politics behind that.
However
In my view the actions of the staff will only lead to even more misery than the political actions alone......
Even supposing the terms of employment are unfair (as compared to other airline conditions, NOT compared to the old Alitalia contracts) I would be tempted to say:
Keep your head down, see if this contract works for you, if not apply for a job elsewhere (as apparently terms of employment are better there given the strike). In due course Alitalia too will have to have market conforming contracts if she is to retain staff.
Furthermore there is now the moral obligation of the Minority partner AFKLM who will be slaughtered publicly should they not be enforcing reasonable fair contracts, also they have a 310M investment to protect next to a 200M loss just anounced.
I am still suspicious..... Why would so many people sign a contract if there are better terms available elsewhere?
Either it just doesn't add up or I am plain stupid. Surely this cannot be explained through the Mediterranean temper alone?
It s a complex problem I accept this and also the dirty politics behind that.
However
In my view the actions of the staff will only lead to even more misery than the political actions alone......
Even supposing the terms of employment are unfair (as compared to other airline conditions, NOT compared to the old Alitalia contracts) I would be tempted to say:
Keep your head down, see if this contract works for you, if not apply for a job elsewhere (as apparently terms of employment are better there given the strike). In due course Alitalia too will have to have market conforming contracts if she is to retain staff.
Furthermore there is now the moral obligation of the Minority partner AFKLM who will be slaughtered publicly should they not be enforcing reasonable fair contracts, also they have a 310M investment to protect next to a 200M loss just anounced.
I am still suspicious..... Why would so many people sign a contract if there are better terms available elsewhere?
Either it just doesn't add up or I am plain stupid. Surely this cannot be explained through the Mediterranean temper alone?
Navigante,
Thanks for your elaborate posts on how things got FUBAR. I do, however, think that the italian government/political elite/old boys network is not solely to blame for this one. The unions in AZ had the chance of saying yes to AF but decided not to because they believed they would be better off after listening to the top dog in above-mentioned group of corrupt and greedy b***ards.
They therefore convicted themselves to the same bad management that they loathed for all these years. Protesting and striking now is, in a way, protesting against their own bad judgement...
From what you wrote before I understand that the pilot and cabin crew unions were not always on the same page as the rest of them, but I think they rejected the original AF offer as well.
On top of that: this is not the time to hamper a relaunched airline. Get it up and running first and then start bargaining for better conditions.
Thanks for your elaborate posts on how things got FUBAR. I do, however, think that the italian government/political elite/old boys network is not solely to blame for this one. The unions in AZ had the chance of saying yes to AF but decided not to because they believed they would be better off after listening to the top dog in above-mentioned group of corrupt and greedy b***ards.
They therefore convicted themselves to the same bad management that they loathed for all these years. Protesting and striking now is, in a way, protesting against their own bad judgement...
From what you wrote before I understand that the pilot and cabin crew unions were not always on the same page as the rest of them, but I think they rejected the original AF offer as well.
On top of that: this is not the time to hamper a relaunched airline. Get it up and running first and then start bargaining for better conditions.
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Unbelievable, no one wrote a word here since January 2009.
Just to remind you what was the situation according to the article written in 2007:
Just before the miraculous birth of the "new" Alitalia (at the end of 2008):
What's changed in 2010?
The new, smaller Alitalia is still losing almost €1 million a day (net loss of 326 million € as announced in the 2009 12 month result), the break-even target being postponed again. Not my business, perhaps. I just wonder where from all this money required to keep AZ afloat keeps pouring in?
Just to remind you what was the situation according to the article written in 2007:
Originally Posted by guardian.co.uk
Alitalia has not seen profits since 2002 and, despite the best trading conditions for years, is reckoned to have lost more than €1m a day in 2006.
What's changed in 2010?
Il gruppo Alitalia ha chiuso il primo anno di attività con una perdita operativa di 274 milioni di euro e una perdita netta di 326 milioni
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Some intersting developments:
Since December 2009 new flight from TRN to TXL, AMS, IST and SVO.
Long haul:
FCO-LAX and MXP-MIA are coming back from June, MXP-GRU will be cancelled
from MXP there will be long haul flights to JFK (4 weekly), NRT (3 weekly) and MIA (3 weekly)
short haul:
flights from FCO to VIE and AGP will restart from summer,
FCO-AMM, BRI-CDG are new
new domestic flights from MXP to SUF, OLB, AHO, BDS and TPS but also to PMI and IBZ by Air One are also new this summer
Since December 2009 new flight from TRN to TXL, AMS, IST and SVO.
Long haul:
FCO-LAX and MXP-MIA are coming back from June, MXP-GRU will be cancelled
from MXP there will be long haul flights to JFK (4 weekly), NRT (3 weekly) and MIA (3 weekly)
short haul:
flights from FCO to VIE and AGP will restart from summer,
FCO-AMM, BRI-CDG are new
new domestic flights from MXP to SUF, OLB, AHO, BDS and TPS but also to PMI and IBZ by Air One are also new this summer
