Alitalia (Merged)
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It is absolutley nonsense that this airline should be allowed continue. The federal state of Europe needs to intervene and show the red card like it has done in the past. Why is Italy any different. If not other states should ban Alitalia from flying to them. And why you may ask, because it is unfair competition. If an Alitalia seat is 1c cheaper on the same route than an airline playing fair in the market place and the customer chooses Alitalia that airline has been 'robbed', because they are competing with a state subsidised airline who do not have to worry about costs. I say close em down now and let the market work freely.
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airlines and bailouts
the us government has in the past bailed out its airlines(9/11), its motorcar industry (chrystler corporation), its aircraft manufacturers by supporting them with defense orders,and to a certain extent supported its tobacco business as well as as in the recent past the banks , the uk bailed out northern rock and b&b and by the looks of it alot of european banks are also going to be bailed out and other businesses too have been and will be bailed out
its just that if we analyse history governments need profitable enterprise and also to keep its citizens employed and as a famous economist has quoted in recessionary times they could pay people to just build roads and demolish them and rebuild them for atleast they provide employment
as far as aviation is concerned a country dependant on tourism needs infrastructure in the form of airlines and good transportation for these are the bases of growth
i feel that governments must ensure that flag carriers keep on flying and being efficient in the use of resourses after all it is cheaper to pay skilled people wages for working rather than dole for not working
i agree the thinking is more macro economic than micro
its just that if we analyse history governments need profitable enterprise and also to keep its citizens employed and as a famous economist has quoted in recessionary times they could pay people to just build roads and demolish them and rebuild them for atleast they provide employment
as far as aviation is concerned a country dependant on tourism needs infrastructure in the form of airlines and good transportation for these are the bases of growth
i feel that governments must ensure that flag carriers keep on flying and being efficient in the use of resourses after all it is cheaper to pay skilled people wages for working rather than dole for not working
i agree the thinking is more macro economic than micro
Join Date: May 2007
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iwhak, it seems you need some further information about this saga:
1. Regarding fares, alitalia has never used unfair competition. In fact it is usually know to have higher prices and poor service compared to competition. Instead, check a well know Irish airline for examples of fare dumping.
2. This time the rescue is made with private money (EUR 1 B). Yes there are subtle and not-so-subtle ways in which the state will be still sponsorizing the company, however no hard cash like it was in the past. Actually Italy will receive a payment.
3.There are founded reasons on which the EU or any other complaining party will claim that the previous injection of 300M must be returned by the future ownership. Be reassured, this will be the subject of hard legal and political battles.
Anyway, it's a done deal and those that don't like it, can only complain or write to your EU representative. See if they pay any attention and let me know.
And, as of today, there is no such thing like "the federal state of Europe".
1. Regarding fares, alitalia has never used unfair competition. In fact it is usually know to have higher prices and poor service compared to competition. Instead, check a well know Irish airline for examples of fare dumping.
2. This time the rescue is made with private money (EUR 1 B). Yes there are subtle and not-so-subtle ways in which the state will be still sponsorizing the company, however no hard cash like it was in the past. Actually Italy will receive a payment.
3.There are founded reasons on which the EU or any other complaining party will claim that the previous injection of 300M must be returned by the future ownership. Be reassured, this will be the subject of hard legal and political battles.
Anyway, it's a done deal and those that don't like it, can only complain or write to your EU representative. See if they pay any attention and let me know.
And, as of today, there is no such thing like "the federal state of Europe".
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US bail out off?
The US seems to have voted not to bail out the banks.
50% of the worlds airlines could go under if the banking system fails.
Even then Alitalia could be flying regardless.
50% of the worlds airlines could go under if the banking system fails.
Even then Alitalia could be flying regardless.
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Kremlin/Kretin Whatever
Your arguements are quite confused. Allow me to assist.
As a capitalist, I oppose a taxpayer funded bailout of any institution. Those who live by the sword must also die by the sword. This is, in my consistent opinion, why Alitalia is a waste of space and should have wiped itself and its shareholders out long ago. But, of course, Uncle Sylvio and the boys saw a way to further abuse the ignorant masses on the farm and make some money for themselve using the smokescreen of Nationalism. This is not socialism. It's also not capitalism except in the Italian version thereof.
Conversely, as a communist you should be pushing for the nationalisation of the banking system (And everything else come to think of it) so that the Government/Banks can then channel funding to the oppressed masses to be used to subsidise housing etc. so that we are all equal and to support their class struggle against the evil capitalists? (Unquote?)
All animals are equal on the farm, right?
This is not capitalism's finest hour but we should retain intellectual integrity in debate. This too shall pass and it is highly unlikely that the now demonstrably discredited model you still seem to support will ever again be adopted by the majority.
As a capitalist, I oppose a taxpayer funded bailout of any institution. Those who live by the sword must also die by the sword. This is, in my consistent opinion, why Alitalia is a waste of space and should have wiped itself and its shareholders out long ago. But, of course, Uncle Sylvio and the boys saw a way to further abuse the ignorant masses on the farm and make some money for themselve using the smokescreen of Nationalism. This is not socialism. It's also not capitalism except in the Italian version thereof.
Conversely, as a communist you should be pushing for the nationalisation of the banking system (And everything else come to think of it) so that the Government/Banks can then channel funding to the oppressed masses to be used to subsidise housing etc. so that we are all equal and to support their class struggle against the evil capitalists? (Unquote?)
All animals are equal on the farm, right?
This is not capitalism's finest hour but we should retain intellectual integrity in debate. This too shall pass and it is highly unlikely that the now demonstrably discredited model you still seem to support will ever again be adopted by the majority.
Last edited by philipat; 30th Sep 2008 at 02:19. Reason: Typos
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Looks like the brilliant unions have signed off on the deal. Not sure what the EU can do in this context, but I would like to be the first to predict that this “new” Alitalia has zero chance of becoming viable. The things that need to be done, won’t.
All that this means is that the same people will blow through this latest bail out in about a year or two, depending on how bad this downturn is going to be (my guess is very bad, and quite prolonged). This will also result in other airlines becoming damaged by having this outfit around. I feel a deep sadness for them being around. Alitalia deserves our scorn, and revulsion. They are not in the same business as the legitimate airlines. What a country
.
All that this means is that the same people will blow through this latest bail out in about a year or two, depending on how bad this downturn is going to be (my guess is very bad, and quite prolonged). This will also result in other airlines becoming damaged by having this outfit around. I feel a deep sadness for them being around. Alitalia deserves our scorn, and revulsion. They are not in the same business as the legitimate airlines. What a country
.
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Despite all the efforts of Kremlin in convincing us of the benefits of a flag carrying black hole, it seems to me, the current financial crisis will not make it much easier for the new owners (including AF-LH) to get a restart done.
Typical cut some costs (probably not enough) and an over-enthusiastic growth forecast without being able to change anything about the business and staff cultures.
So I concur.... It ain't gonna work....
Typical cut some costs (probably not enough) and an over-enthusiastic growth forecast without being able to change anything about the business and staff cultures.
So I concur.... It ain't gonna work....
Alitalia apparently has some 19000 employees at present. 3000 are to be laid off. However, CAI will employ only 12500 - which includes Air One workers.
So, who and where are the remaining 3500 ? Ghost workers of some sort?
So, who and where are the remaining 3500 ? Ghost workers of some sort?
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Who are the remaining?
There are not ghosts, there are employers with determined time contracts. They are old employers that worked for Alitalia with such contracts from, at least,8 years. (Cabin attendants, ground airport staff, etc.)
Ciao
Ciao
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Otterman, please explain exactly what makes you say "what a country" referring to Italy.
Understand you have no sympathy for the company, that does not entitles you to crass comment toward a country.
Alitalia may have sucked before and possibly will suck in the future, still it's a reasonable fact that capitals, politics and working force have meet and agreed to try continuing bringing salary to some 12,000 families. Or you do belong to those fine thinkers that invoke agricultural work for those that are too vocal ?
Understand you have no sympathy for the company, that does not entitles you to crass comment toward a country.
Alitalia may have sucked before and possibly will suck in the future, still it's a reasonable fact that capitals, politics and working force have meet and agreed to try continuing bringing salary to some 12,000 families. Or you do belong to those fine thinkers that invoke agricultural work for those that are too vocal ?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Grauniad:.......The outcome represented a victory for Berlusconi's determination to keep the airline in Italian hands at all costs. But the bill for the taxpayer will be a hefty one, at least €2bn (£1.6bn) by most estimates.*
Antonio Divietri, the head of one of five smaller unions whose intransigence almost scotched an agreement, left the prime minister's office yesterday saying: "We've signed. But there's nothing to celebrate. One in three [of the flight attendants] will [lose their jobs]. And hundreds and hundreds of our colleagues will be forced to move cities to work."
Berlusconi said the talks had "run up against - let's call them - privileges that have crystallised in the course of many years". To secure an agreement, the government offered a remarkable degree of support to those who lost their jobs, including paying 80% of their salary for up to seven years.
*Love to know how they'll get it past the EU; and if, in the present economic crisis and turndown, Air France-KLM or Lufthansa will actually come back to the table...
(Lufthansa is, apparently, the favourite of Mr B as they will use Milan as the hub, whilsr AF-KLM wanted to use Rome)
Antonio Divietri, the head of one of five smaller unions whose intransigence almost scotched an agreement, left the prime minister's office yesterday saying: "We've signed. But there's nothing to celebrate. One in three [of the flight attendants] will [lose their jobs]. And hundreds and hundreds of our colleagues will be forced to move cities to work."
Berlusconi said the talks had "run up against - let's call them - privileges that have crystallised in the course of many years". To secure an agreement, the government offered a remarkable degree of support to those who lost their jobs, including paying 80% of their salary for up to seven years.
*Love to know how they'll get it past the EU; and if, in the present economic crisis and turndown, Air France-KLM or Lufthansa will actually come back to the table...
(Lufthansa is, apparently, the favourite of Mr B as they will use Milan as the hub, whilsr AF-KLM wanted to use Rome)
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European Socialism
Love to know how they'll get it past the EU;
Or so they think! I believe that AZ will STILL be grossly overstaffed and inefficient. As an earlier post suggested, it's very very difficult to change a Company culture at the best of times, and the ingrained attitudes of AZ staff and Unions will make that nigh on impossible.
I would suggest that within 3 years we are doing this post all over again. There might be some justice after all, but not for the European taxpayer who just got shafted for 2 Billion Euros.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
But the former does not mean the latter. Just because a country needs airlines (which I agree) does not mean that the country needs airlines belonging to itself, let alone a "flag carrier". Italy doesn't need to have an Alitalia to achieve its infrastructure objectives any more than it needs an Italian manufacturer of cola products to stop its populace from dying of thirst.
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el#, you asking the question shows that you will be unable to see the mess that Italy is. I am not here to give a history lesson. Maybe my opinion has to do with the endemic corruption in Italy. Maybe it has to do with the fact that Italy is working off the almost sixtieth government since the formation of the democratic republic in 1946 (yes, that is close to 1 new government per year). Do I need to go into Mr. Berlusconi record and past, a little searching on the internet will come up with enough examples, dating to his rise in the sixties to his earlier prime minister stints. This is but one quote: “Silvio Berlusconi has an extensive record of criminal prosecutions, for alleged offenses including mafia collusion, false accounting, tax fraud, corruption and bribery of police officers and judges”. The Italian people keep reelecting leaders like this, the lack of his convictions shows enough what kind of legal framework Italy has developed. I could go on and on.
Alitalia is a microcosm of what Italy is. Overstaffed, grossly inefficient, and totally clueless. Which is all fine by me if it didn’t impact my industry, but we are interlinked much more these days through the EU, and Euro. And the mess down there affects us all, especially in this business.
In the USA around 500 aircraft will be grounded over the winter, many never to return to service. It would be the equivalent of an Airline like Northwest Airlines shutting down. This might be enough for the industry to regain its footing. If Alitalia would shutdown, as it should, it would do the same in Europe. Whatever vacuum comes about would be filled, by more efficient better run airlines than the dinosaur that became extinct.
Alitalia is a microcosm of what Italy is. Overstaffed, grossly inefficient, and totally clueless. Which is all fine by me if it didn’t impact my industry, but we are interlinked much more these days through the EU, and Euro. And the mess down there affects us all, especially in this business.
In the USA around 500 aircraft will be grounded over the winter, many never to return to service. It would be the equivalent of an Airline like Northwest Airlines shutting down. This might be enough for the industry to regain its footing. If Alitalia would shutdown, as it should, it would do the same in Europe. Whatever vacuum comes about would be filled, by more efficient better run airlines than the dinosaur that became extinct.
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philipat, some pages ago links were posted to show how no EU taxpayer was ever shafted of any money to any italian purpose or Alitalia in particular, because unlike other countries, Italy is a net contributor to the EU balance. Please stop repeating this false information.
Otterman, I see your point and I share it to a large extent. Just to be clear, I don't have any particular "simpathy" for Alitalia and I have none to Mr. Berlusconi. However I think the current direction stinks, but stinks less than a grounding.
I'm alway about puzzled by foreing people expressing quick opinions on other countries and their good or bad aspects. I've lived extensively in three countries and I needed to learn the language, history and culture to be able to form an educated opinion of my own. About Italy I like to read about it in the international press, but knowing things "from within" I see that many pieces are well written while others are just junk. So my invitation would be just to hold your judgment on foreign complicated matters unless you've a direct exposition on them.
Otterman, I see your point and I share it to a large extent. Just to be clear, I don't have any particular "simpathy" for Alitalia and I have none to Mr. Berlusconi. However I think the current direction stinks, but stinks less than a grounding.
I'm alway about puzzled by foreing people expressing quick opinions on other countries and their good or bad aspects. I've lived extensively in three countries and I needed to learn the language, history and culture to be able to form an educated opinion of my own. About Italy I like to read about it in the international press, but knowing things "from within" I see that many pieces are well written while others are just junk. So my invitation would be just to hold your judgment on foreign complicated matters unless you've a direct exposition on them.
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OH, all right then!
philipat, some pages ago links were posted to show how no EU taxpayer was ever shafted of any money to any italian purpose or Alitalia in particular, because unlike other countries, Italy is a net contributor to the EU balance. Please stop repeating this false information.