CORK - 5

[ryan2000]

I'd still rather fly to Dublin rather than do a day trip on the Motorway. It' s a lot more tiring than people realise. A 3 or 4 per day ATR service would work providing FR stayed off it.

[brian_dromey]

Francis, do you realise that the hold areas on the ATR's are in front of the cabin and also in the rear, not under the floor like on larger aircraft? They appear to be more than adequate. There is no issue that I have ever heard of with baggage (connecting, or otherwise) with the ATR. The overheads for cabin baggage are tight though.

I think for ORK-DUB to work (which Im skeptical that it would) they would need to trade fairly heavily on connnections, for effective connections to North America and allow for day returns three daily services would probably be needed. Something like an 0700 departure from Cork, with an arrival scheduled for 0800, or so, departing DUB at 0830. Maybe the aircraft could route
ORK-DUB-ORK-BHD-ORK-DUB-ORK, killing two birds with one stone there, not sure if there would enough traffic though. The final possibility would be for two aircraft to operate in a triangle via a common UK airport. If EI and/RE wanted to operate on ORK-DUB there are a few ways to make it happen, but Im not sure the market exists as it once did. The trains and roads are much better and getting through airports quickly is more difficult.

[Copenhagen]

Brian, it's impossible to argue with irrationality.

Francis obviously believes that ORK DUB is of a different nature to all the other connecting ATR services globally.

So, lets move on to more pressing items... The AT72 is too big for ORK BHD.

[ryan2000]

In fairness to Francis the alleged lack of baggage space on an ATR is just one of a number of lame excuses that have been peddled around Cork Airport in recent years. Others include the old chestnut that Czech Airlines and Malev pulled out due to a shortage of aircraft, no mention of the fact that the planes were re allocated to other routes!

Then there was the one about the Shannon Stop over being the reason why Cork didn't have U.S. Flights. Well open skies is in for over 4 years now and we're not even in the shake up for a transatlantic service. On a more positive not April traffic is on par with April 2011 which might indicate that things have levelled out but I wouldn't put too much money on it.

[francis omahony]

Francis OMahony

april traffic is down it was up 15.8% early due easter but ended down

[Tom the Tenor]

Knock has again shown the way for Cork. Not only has it had a scheduled service both to New York and to Boston it is today awaiting the arrival of the first scheduled Lufthansa service from Dusseldorf. It may be noted that just like the case with Zurich Cork Airport had also a scheduled air connection to Dusseldorf more than thirty years ago.

Cork Airport - an airport with such little ambition. What a pity.

[Jack1985]

That makes no sense. You say Ryanair slashing their fares had minimal effect and then in the same post acknowledge that Ryanair slashing their fares forced easyJet off the route. And somehow that's the CAA's fault?

It does if you read it correctly. I said Ryanair slashing fares from Cork to London Stansted when easyJet began their Cork to London Gatwick route had minimal affect. But when they competed directly with them on the Cork to London Gatwick route with fares slashed it had the affect to drive easyJet off the route.

I'd very much doubt if Ryanair was given any incentives to compete with Easyjet on London or Aer Arann on Dublin.

They offered Cork a based B738 increased flights to Liverpool/London Stansted and new routes to Dublin and London Gatwick ''with hopes of European expansion'' for no landing fees for the year (only for the DUB and LGW routes). They got this and then drove easyJet out and seriously damaged AerArann's viability on the Dublin route. I know full well under European competition laws that no entity can limit competition and it should be embrassed and I also agree with that but not when your destroying an existing market for the benefit of a few temporary extra flights - what I was saying was the CAA shouldnt have given in and told FR if they wanted DUB and LGW they had to pay full house price like everyone else - That is what I call competition.

Cork Airport - an airport with such little ambition. What a pity.

Precisely.

[Copenhagen]

Here we go again. Not a day goes by on the Cork thread without our two comedians blaming people for airlines flying to other airports.

Sorry to burst your dilusional lack of ambition bubble yet again Tom, but ORK is active in marketing to Lufthansa... Don't you read the newspapers?

We’re hoping to add other airports, and Shannon and Cork are destinations looking to get Lufthansa in,”

Some little things - The Irish Times - Fri, Apr 20, 2012

However, as these routes are mostly block booked charter, My bets are that Shannon will appear before cork, not because of the secret society, but because the germans love the west coast of Ireland rather than the beautiful charms of Linsale.

Oh, since when is using route examples that were a disaster and lasted less than a season (NOC to the USA) is a real confidence booster for an airline?

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by Jack1985

It does if you read it correctly. I said Ryanair slashing fares from Cork to London Stansted when easyJet began their Cork to London Gatwick route had minimal affect. But when they competed directly with them on the Cork to London Gatwick route with fares slashed it had the affect to drive easyJet off the route.

All I said was Ryanair slashing their fares contributed to easyJet pulling out of Cork, so I don't know what you're disagreeing with.

If we're to believe your post though, it was Aer Rianta's fault for 'letting' Ryanair operate on the Cork-Gatwick route, as if to say they had any say in the matter, let alone the power to stop them.

[Jack1985]

Really you just said earlier on... ''That makes no sense.''

was Aer Rianta's fault for 'letting' Ryanair operate on the Cork-Gatwick route, as if to say they had any say in the matter, let alone the power to stop them.

Of course it was. This was in the year exactly when Ryanair turned around their view to Aer Rianta and started what could only be described as an epic expansion at Dublin i'm sure you'll remember that? Aer Rianta was giving in left right and centre to Ryanair letting them go at Shannon and wanted Cork to continue its growth - Aer Lingus were growing and the void by JetMagic being filled they wanted more and more and they chose the wrong soloution to the growth they so desperately wanted because in the end they let Ryanair drive the competition away and then watched them half the amount of flights to London Gatwick and increase the fares.

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by Jack1985

Really you just said earlier on... ''That makes no sense.''

I know I did. You contradicted yourself in your post on the last page, hence why I said it made no sense. On the one hand you disagreed that Ryanair slashing their fares forced easyJet out of Cork, and then in the same post acknowledged it contributed to it. And now again, you acknowledge Ryanair slashing their fares forced easyJet out of Cork. So again, what are you disagreeing with?

Originally Posted by Jack1985

Of course it was. This was in the year exactly when Ryanair turned around their view to Aer Rianta and started what could only be described as an epic expansion at Dublin i'm sure you'll remember that? Aer Rianta was giving in left right and centre to Ryanair letting them go at Shannon and wanted Cork to continue its growth - Aer Lingus were growing and the void by JetMagic being filled they wanted more and more and they chose the wrong soloution to the growth they so desperately wanted because in the end they let Ryanair drive the competition away and then watched them half the amount of flights to London Gatwick and increase the fares.

easyJet first announced their Irish routes in 2004 and launched them in early 2005. Ryanair didn't announce their expansion at Dublin till the end of 2005, with flights not launching till 2006.

In any case its bullsh*t to blame the CAA for easyJet pulling out of Cork. Airports are not allowed under EU rules to offer any incentives to one airline without offering them to all airlines, so any incentive Ryanair may have been offered by the CAA was also offered to easyJet, and bmi baby before them. So why is it the CAA's fault that Ryanair chose to undercut easyJet?

[ryan2000]

My understanding is that Ryanair were entitled to the airport incentives for the Liverpool service but they did not receive any such incentives for Dublin, Stansted or Gatwick.

Neither did Easyjet for Gatwick as they went head to head with BMI Baby

They put on an extra Stansted after Easyjet launched Gatwick and then really upped the Ante by going head to head with them on Gatwick during the winter of 2005. Things came to a head in June 2006 when Ryanair put 3 Gatwicks a day in their Winter schedule for 06/07 and shortly afterwards Easy announced that they were leaving ORK SNN and NOC.

[ryan2000]

CAA and Aer before them stated clearly that incentives are only for new routes and are not given to predators who decide to compete on existing routes.

[Jack1985]

CAA and Aer before them stated clearly that incentives are only for new routes and are not given to predators who decide to compete on existing routes.

So basically Pádraig Ó Céidigh was talking bull about Ryanair recieving incentives for the Dublin route which was making AerArann's extensive high frequency route loss making (11 Daily at the time with RE alone - Ryanair offered 3 daily flights at 99c each-way in 2005) Also you were wrong Ryan2000 bmibaby announced in September 2004 they were ending their London-Gatwick to Prague route and said they didnt believe London would form part of their long-term plans two weeks after the announcement they confirmed they would end the Cork route - it ended on 31 January 2005 they competed head-on with easyJet for 3 days they weren't driven off the route by easyJet. Being honest I highly doubt the CEO of Aer Arann at the time was talking bull.

[Copenhagen]

Jack, you dont understand what you are talking about.

Ryan, you are correct - 30 seconds on google is an amazing thing.

As with all other airports, Cork Airport cannot offer preferential rates on existing routes. However, Cork Airport does offer a generous incentive scheme to airlines planning to launch new routes to any EU destination. The current scheme involves a five-year sliding scale of discounted charges. No airport charge at all is levied in the first year of operation.

Air Transport News


EasyJet did not get an incentive from Cork Airport for Gatwick.


As for O'Ceilidh - Aer Arann lost their case in the competition authority in Cork, so yes, sad to say (as I like the man) - he was talking out his ass.

Ryanair welcomes the decision of the Competition Authority, which exposes Padraig O’Ceidigh false claims that Ryanair was trying to put Aer Arann out of business. Even Aer Arann’s Chief Executive, Paul Schultz, recently admitted that these claims were false, when he confirmed in a speech in Cork that Ryanair and Aer Arann don’t really compete with each other because both the airlines only operate on one of Aer Arann’s 40 or so routes.

Irish Competition Authority Drops Aer Arann Complaint ON CORK DUBLIN ROUTE - Low Cost Airline News


Inquiry into Cork-Dublin route ends | Irish Examiner

Aer Arann's complaint not upheld - Irish, Business - Independent.ie

[Jack1985]

Jack, you dont understand what you are talking about.

Ryan, you are correct - 30 seconds on google is an amazing thing.

Funny Copenhagen, I very much do actually. The deals for Cork Airport are located on the website a three year deal - 100% reduced charges for year one then down to 75%, 50% for the consecutive two years - But Ryanair got the based B738 and no charges for DUB/LGW routes (1 year only and nothing else) because they also said they would increase the LPL service and STN service the CAA let them in. Copenhagen the Internet is great for many things but if you think you'll find preferential business arrangements on it your quite mistaken.

The reason AerArann lost that case was because after the 24th November 2006 both were paying full house price and AerArann had no grounds to complain it was then fair competition.

My hole point of this rant is that Ryanair should have been paying full price to London-Gatwick and then we would have seen who would retain it, this did not happen and Ryanair had the upper hand - easyJet did not have the cash to burn.

How many cases are on-going in Belgium, France and Germany (probably more) into Ryanair receiving such subsidies? somehow airports think prostituting (basically) themselves to Ryanair will result in sustainable traffic.

Also to point out and I cant seem to find it on the internet you might have a look Copenhagen, I think the scheme that was in place was the first of its kind in Ireland launched by the DAA in 2005 it was cancelled in either 2006/07 and replaced with the 3 year cycle scheme not the one at the time of 100% for the first year only (''supposedly'' limited to new routes only)

http://www.corkairport.com/Libraries...haul.sflb.ashx (current airport route support scheme)

[Copenhagen]

Jack - can you point to any documentation that states what you claim. As you can see I have attached links to documents that say the opposite.

[ryan2000]

Ryanair did not increase Stansted or Liverpool after they went head to head with Easyjet on Gatwick. I cannot see how the DAA would tolerate the practice of giving one carrier preferential treatment over another on the same route. Even the infamous Ryan deal with Shannon still required them to pay full charges on their London services.

[Copenhagen]

Jack, are you making this up as you go along or something?

The reason AerArann lost that case was because after the 24th November 2006 both were paying full house price and AerArann had no grounds to complain it was then fair competition.

The predatory pricing campaign was nothing to do with landing charges in Cork. It was all to do with RE complaining against Ryanair for undercharging on the ORK DUB route.

FR could prove that their ticket prices were more than the cost of actual delivery of that seat, so the case fell.

My hole point of this rant is that Ryanair should have been paying full price to London-Gatwick and then we would have seen who would retain it, this did not happen and Ryanair had the upper hand - easyJet did not have the cash to burn.

How many cases are on-going in Belgium, France and Germany (probably more) into Ryanair receiving such subsidies? somehow airports think prostituting (basically) themselves to Ryanair will result in sustainable traffic.

Again - Show me one piece of evidence that Cork offered Ryanair an incentive for the Cork Gatwick route.

Especially when Cork Airport stated in 2006:

As with all other airports, Cork Airport cannot offer preferential rates on existing routes. However, Cork Airport does offer a generous incentive scheme to airlines planning to launch new routes to any EU destination.

Air Transport News

[Jack1985]

Ryanair did not increase Stansted or Liverpool after they went head to head with Easyjet on Gatwick. I cannot see how the DAA would tolerate the practice of giving one carrier preferential treatment over another on the same route. Even the infamous Ryan deal with Shannon still required them to pay full charges on their London services.

Appoligies if I'm wrong but I remember Ryanair cutting their LPL service and then bringing it back daily as quick after a spat with the CAA and I also believed Ryanair added a few extra flights to STN (weekly) in 2004/2005.

Again - Show me one piece of evidence that Cork offered Ryanair an incentive for the Cork Gatwick route.

As with all other airports, Cork Airport cannot offer preferential rates on existing routes. However, Cork Airport does offer a generous incentive scheme to airlines planning to launch new routes to any EU destination.

I've just told you Copenhagen, If I could it would be on PPrune - As I have said if you think anyone can find Ryanair's preferential deals with Airports/Routes on the Internet your mistaken.

An Example here of Ryanair pulling out after 1st year free charges:

East Midlands/Glasgow Prestwick both recieved 100% discounts in their first full year vaild from sometime in December 2007 until December 2008 and rightly so they werent competing directly with any routes - Ryanair had high LF's but no yield both routes were unsustainable and pulled in October 2008 while there was still no fees. The same could be said for Gatwick there was a massive oversupply at the time it went from I think 5 flights per day down to 3, Ryanair at the time had actually planned to increase flights to 3 per day that Winter of 2006 it was all bull and sent easyJet running and Ryan2000 you know that the capacity expansion above is correct. The only think Ryanair is after is no fee's they got that with both Dublin/Gatwick in there first full year of operation and had the upper hand at Cork to drive them out - I dont no if this was the case at Knock/Shannon but ask anyone in the airport they know exactly what I'm talking about.

Ryanair to close two Cork routes - RT News