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Put yourself in Flyglobespan's position - who would you blame?? Easy to blame it on everything else but your own performance - if sales were good he would not have pulled any of the the routes!! Sorry but if the locals don't buy the flights then the airlines won't hang around!!l
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Single Spey
Thanks for your obviously "well thought out" comments. You must have stayed up well past your ASBO curfew thinking them up. You can't have seen the airspace between NEW and ADN on a radar tube or you would have re considered your comments. Js41 240 kts versus Eurofighter/F3/GR4 500-600kts you would be avoiding traffic 20-30 miles away to get 5nm. Thats if the mil a/c don't decide to play chicken and follow your a/c. Forget co-ordination with the Air defenders, that ain't happening. The point is that class A airspace exists to provide airlines the protection from non participating conflicting traffic. P18 for better or worse is not H24. P600 is. A staggered rotation and not a mass arrival /departure would make life easier. Eastern are the only airline operating Jetstreams/SB20's from the South where the problems are.
No one is saying they don't want to be a controller. We are saying that we don't want to be on the end of a mid-air because the a/c cant' get out of the way in time after being told to avoid. I wanted to be a grass cutter anyway but the queue was too long!!
Thanks for your obviously "well thought out" comments. You must have stayed up well past your ASBO curfew thinking them up. You can't have seen the airspace between NEW and ADN on a radar tube or you would have re considered your comments. Js41 240 kts versus Eurofighter/F3/GR4 500-600kts you would be avoiding traffic 20-30 miles away to get 5nm. Thats if the mil a/c don't decide to play chicken and follow your a/c. Forget co-ordination with the Air defenders, that ain't happening. The point is that class A airspace exists to provide airlines the protection from non participating conflicting traffic. P18 for better or worse is not H24. P600 is. A staggered rotation and not a mass arrival /departure would make life easier. Eastern are the only airline operating Jetstreams/SB20's from the South where the problems are.
No one is saying they don't want to be a controller. We are saying that we don't want to be on the end of a mid-air because the a/c cant' get out of the way in time after being told to avoid. I wanted to be a grass cutter anyway but the queue was too long!!
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Don
FYI I have seen the airspace between NEW and ADN on several radar tubes - on several occasions I might even have been known to control aircraft in that airspace.
But I never complained about when and where my customers wanted to fly - I just got on with providing them the best service I could, to the best of my ability.
And as for OJTIs who have an attitude that they will not fly in Class G airspace because they consider that their job is too difficult and it is unsafe, then I do wonder what has happened to the professionalism that used to be about in ATC.
FYI I have seen the airspace between NEW and ADN on several radar tubes - on several occasions I might even have been known to control aircraft in that airspace.
But I never complained about when and where my customers wanted to fly - I just got on with providing them the best service I could, to the best of my ability.
And as for OJTIs who have an attitude that they will not fly in Class G airspace because they consider that their job is too difficult and it is unsafe, then I do wonder what has happened to the professionalism that used to be about in ATC.
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Many years ago I was involved with a fellow Atco in an airprox about 30 miles south of Aberdeen. A SH36 had called up,and I as the approach controller took the call.The radar controller was busy co-ordinating departures.I saw ONE primary blip pop up one mile ahead of this Short,no SSR.I gave traffic,as no avoiding action was possible.The primary blip was a Jaguar that had pulled out of lowlevel,went straight in front of this SH360,and then did an aerobatic manoeuvre over the top of it.Scared the C
p out of me.
I have also had situations where the first thing I have said to an aircraft is avoiding action.So Eastern and others carry on.That SH360 was very lucky.You may not be.
Single Spey,
Are you calling Aberdeen ATC unprofessional? Oh how daring.Hey if you have any issues put it in writing to management.The Class G operators get way more than they should get.I can't even be bothered to rise to the bait.
p out of me.I have also had situations where the first thing I have said to an aircraft is avoiding action.So Eastern and others carry on.That SH360 was very lucky.You may not be.
Single Spey,
Are you calling Aberdeen ATC unprofessional? Oh how daring.Hey if you have any issues put it in writing to management.The Class G operators get way more than they should get.I can't even be bothered to rise to the bait.
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The Class G operators get way more than they should get
Except to add that I do frequently fly with Eastern in Class G and don't have any issue with theway they conduct their flights. But I will worry more about the 'service' they (don't) get from ADN ATC.
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The service they ''don't'' get is Radar Advisory.Could you name a better service in Class G.We could give them RIS or even a FIS.
Hope you enjoy the airshow in your leather seat.Remember safety is no accident.
Ps ADN is a VOR.
Hope you enjoy the airshow in your leather seat.Remember safety is no accident.Ps ADN is a VOR.
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Single Spey,
The PRIMARY task of Aberdeen Approach Radar is to provide a Radar Control service to aircraft operating inside Controlled Airspace.
If time/workload permits then a SECONDARY task is to provide a service to aircraft in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace. The fact that those Class G flights do normally get a RAS from Aberdeen is purely down to the dedication & hard work of those same ATCO's. If you want to beef about service provision then your beef would be better directed to the management at the Scottish Area Control Centre, who some time ago (and following a very nasty Airprox) took the view that providing a RAS in that part of the sky was too risky - from an organisation point of view - and placed their Controllers in a legally risky position if it all goes pear shaped. Therefore SCACC ATCO's only provide a RIS, whereas Aberdeen provides a RAS - for now.
This is directed more generally about those who operate in that area - if, as keeps being said, P18 was there H24 then they would use it, WHY do inbounds keep pressuring for descent clearance which then takes them out of the bottom of the Airway - to the extent that it is becoming common to hear "request further descent, happy with a RAS outside"! might as well scrap the airway altogether
IF the base levels are too high for your flight profile - file a report. Nothing will change unless enough pilots put in the paperwork.....
Finally, "Zig-Zag" vectors are a necessary tool to fit you into a traffic sequence - you know, thats the other 7 or 8 aircraft trying to land at the same time as you and all arriving from different directions. 450+ movements on weekdays at an airport the size of a penny black makes the odds of a straight-in much less likely - accept it and stop the little "huffys" when told to slow down and turn left.
Safe flying
DD
The PRIMARY task of Aberdeen Approach Radar is to provide a Radar Control service to aircraft operating inside Controlled Airspace.
If time/workload permits then a SECONDARY task is to provide a service to aircraft in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace. The fact that those Class G flights do normally get a RAS from Aberdeen is purely down to the dedication & hard work of those same ATCO's. If you want to beef about service provision then your beef would be better directed to the management at the Scottish Area Control Centre, who some time ago (and following a very nasty Airprox) took the view that providing a RAS in that part of the sky was too risky - from an organisation point of view - and placed their Controllers in a legally risky position if it all goes pear shaped. Therefore SCACC ATCO's only provide a RIS, whereas Aberdeen provides a RAS - for now.
This is directed more generally about those who operate in that area - if, as keeps being said, P18 was there H24 then they would use it, WHY do inbounds keep pressuring for descent clearance which then takes them out of the bottom of the Airway - to the extent that it is becoming common to hear "request further descent, happy with a RAS outside"! might as well scrap the airway altogether
IF the base levels are too high for your flight profile - file a report. Nothing will change unless enough pilots put in the paperwork.....
Finally, "Zig-Zag" vectors are a necessary tool to fit you into a traffic sequence - you know, thats the other 7 or 8 aircraft trying to land at the same time as you and all arriving from different directions. 450+ movements on weekdays at an airport the size of a penny black makes the odds of a straight-in much less likely - accept it and stop the little "huffys" when told to slow down and turn left.
Safe flying
DD
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See BAA Abdn in the form of MD Kevin Brown, have denied that the decision of GSM to prune back the winter routes to just TFS & AGP was to do with landing charges at Dyce.
In a letter in the EE tonight, he says charges are lower than they've been for the past 15yrs. The carrier's decision was more to do with a lack of patronage - "use it or lose it".
Also points to 20+ new routes over the past 2yrs, with help from the BAA route development fund.
Finally he says that calls for better Intl Arrivals & check-in facilities are being addressed, with ongoing projects.
PASSENGERS WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST AT ABDN.
Um...........yeah........................................... .................
In a letter in the EE tonight, he says charges are lower than they've been for the past 15yrs. The carrier's decision was more to do with a lack of patronage - "use it or lose it".
Also points to 20+ new routes over the past 2yrs, with help from the BAA route development fund.
Finally he says that calls for better Intl Arrivals & check-in facilities are being addressed, with ongoing projects.
PASSENGERS WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST AT ABDN.
Um...........yeah........................................... .................
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Well a lot of GSM second rotations arrive after 11.30pm so don't they get clobbered with the night period landing surcharge.If they are light on pax then the profit disappears.I think the BAA is still in the Aberdeenitis mode.Sook up to BA and anything with OIL attached.The low costs can go and get Fked because they don't do that.Wasn't Aberdeen landing charges way higher than Heathrow,Gatwick and Stansted.It's a real shame that GSM is semi pulling the plug,especially when the winter schedules haven't even started.People can't plan 6 months in advance to book a weekend to Prague.This has got to be about BAA Aberdeen.
ked because they don't do that.Wasn't Aberdeen landing charges way higher than Heathrow,Gatwick and Stansted.It's a real shame that GSM is semi pulling the plug,especially when the winter schedules haven't even started.People can't plan 6 months in advance to book a weekend to Prague.This has got to be about BAA Aberdeen.
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'PASSENGERS WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST AT ABDN'
Must remember this the next time I'm stuck in the taxi queue at 08:30 on a winter Monday morning just after the London flights arrive. Spent 35 mins there one morning in freezing conditions - surely all the businessmen who arrive and spend time in the taxi queue must wonder what sort of a backward place ABZ is? It's not like they know monday mornings are going to be busy is it
Must remember this the next time I'm stuck in the taxi queue at 08:30 on a winter Monday morning just after the London flights arrive. Spent 35 mins there one morning in freezing conditions - surely all the businessmen who arrive and spend time in the taxi queue must wonder what sort of a backward place ABZ is? It's not like they know monday mornings are going to be busy is it
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Try checking in for the first flights out! .... or getting a cup of coffee after you are (eventually) through security, or getting through passport control arriving from international, or getting your bag in under half an hour from the solitary baggage belt.
Passengers have never come first so far!
Passengers have never come first so far!
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The carrier's decision was more to do with a lack of patronage - "use it or lose it".
Also points to 20+ new routes over the past 2yrs, with help from the BAA route development fund.
Lets start with those that have or are being axed....
1 Amsterdam • bmi regional
2 Brussels • bmi regional
3 Blackpool • Jetstream Express
4 Liverpool • Ryanair
5 Cardiff & Liverpool • Air Wales
6 Malaga • Monarch
Surely there must be more????
Bit worrying to see that the MD is clearly not armed with the facts - or perhaps he is scared to admit the facts!
Last edited by Mister Geezer; 11th Sep 2007 at 23:28.
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There is an awful lot of nonsensical comments on here. Has anyone looked properly at the Flyglobespan position? It doesn't matter about loads it's how much they can charge that matters and Flyglobespan from Aberdeen need a decent yield. He won't get this at Aberdeen during the winter as he does not have a based aircraft. The Aberdeen market is not big enough for a full winter service paying reasonable fares. The fares Flyglobespan is charging have been kept high and people have not booked. They took a risk and it failed. Flyglobespan is not low cost it is no frills - there is a significant difference. What benefit would BAA have to lie about the charges - if this was not true then surely airlines would have cried foul by now - and with Flyglobespan's record their word is hardly reliable. As for the other 'issues' then surely taxis are down to congestion on Dyce drive, check in is down to handling agents and the same for baggage. Immigration must surely be to blame for queues at international arrivals.
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The 737-700 (which is the variant based in Aberdeen) is arguably the most sought after of all the 73 variants since it has the best range. I am under the impression that they needed the Aberdeen aircraft elsewhere for the winter. Perhaps the BAA just didn't do enough to make it worth Globespans while to stay.
barneythedog
Bear in mind that the aircraft was going to be based over the winter. I can't imagine that the loads have nosedived from the current levels that I am led to believe are high. If Globespan can't make a decent yield with their fares then the BAA at Aberdeen must be a factor.
I will think you will find the high fares are a function of supply and demand. I have seen rock bottom fares - providing you book early! However as seats fill up the fares rise!
Mmmm I would like to see how profitable the summer season has been - Failure... mmm I would be very surprised!
Again... supply and demand has ensured that cheap seats go very quickly.
Perhaps the taxi situation is outside the remit of the BAA but normally the number of taxis is more then the number of people waiting - not the other way round. As for congestion - don't think that is a valid excuse.
No - it is due to the ridiculous infrastructure. To put it simply... too few desks for too many flights. The initial design of the terminal has no room for obvious expansion so they are caught in a corner with the present arrangement. The current situation of cordoning the umpteen queues resembles more of a 'conga dance' when it is busy. Ever been to an airport where you are told which queue to stand in when you enter the terminal since you have absolutely no idea otherwise???
The main issue is the lack of facilities. It seems commonplace to have 3 or 4 domestic flights in at any one time with only one baggage belt. Again no room for obvious expansion so passengers will have to cope with this arrangement for some time yet I would expect.
Perhaps the lack of passport control points are to blame here. That falls under the responsibility of the BAA since they provide the facilities!
To be honest I don’t find many other airports as stressful as Aberdeen can be nowadays during the peak hours!
barneythedog
It doesn't matter about loads it's how much they can charge that matters and Flyglobespan from Aberdeen need a decent yield. He won't get this at Aberdeen during the winter as he does not have a based aircraft
The fares Flyglobespan is charging have been kept high and people have not booked.
They took a risk and it failed.
Flyglobespan is not low cost it is no frills - there is a significant difference
As for the other 'issues' then surely taxis are down to congestion on Dyce drive:
check in is down to handling agents
and the same for baggage
Immigration must surely be to blame for queues at international arrivals
To be honest I don’t find many other airports as stressful as Aberdeen can be nowadays during the peak hours!
Last edited by Mister Geezer; 11th Sep 2007 at 23:42.
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Good points guys. 
I would also point out that some of the "new" routes have actually been served from ABZ in the dim & distant past...eg. CPH.
Have the likes of X9 & T3 been given any help from the BAA fund to start SVG, or because it was already an existing destination for ABZ, not? Is the BAA fund only for unserved routes that are to start up (as it should be imo)? There's certainly a glut of Norway, with maybe more on the horizon.
It's not the first time BAA charges at ABZ have been raised. FR have cited them as a reason that they won't expand out of ABZ (whether there is sufficient demand for several 189-seater routes is another matter). T3 have also said that charges are expensive at ABZ, & they are there "despite" them, Class G airspace n' all!
Having followed the fortunes at Dyce for many years, there is no doubt in my mind BAA Aberdeen are no longer to the benefit of ABZ & that current growth is "in spite of" rather than "because of" them. OK there are more scheduled routes now than at any time in its history, but I don't think that's thanks to BAA.
As was pointed out, over the years as many routes at ABZ have been lost as there have been gained. I think charges impacting on yields were the death-knell for at least some of them.
Maybe KB reads this forum...maybe someone at BAA can come on here & defend their record at ABZ! Maybe I'll win the lottery...
BMI R:
Are they still focusing efforts on the Embraer, or are they contemplating an equipment change? Maybe they are finding out that out of ABZ, their routes are not suited to the jet, witness AMS & BRU axed. I recall T3 saying that, after their experiment using the type, that it was not suited to their ops & that a turboprop was more efficient. Maybe bmi R will have to look to do something similar to produce better yields out of ABZ? Does using the Embraer out of here work for the airline?
I would also point out that some of the "new" routes have actually been served from ABZ in the dim & distant past...eg. CPH.
Have the likes of X9 & T3 been given any help from the BAA fund to start SVG, or because it was already an existing destination for ABZ, not? Is the BAA fund only for unserved routes that are to start up (as it should be imo)? There's certainly a glut of Norway, with maybe more on the horizon.
It's not the first time BAA charges at ABZ have been raised. FR have cited them as a reason that they won't expand out of ABZ (whether there is sufficient demand for several 189-seater routes is another matter). T3 have also said that charges are expensive at ABZ, & they are there "despite" them, Class G airspace n' all!
Having followed the fortunes at Dyce for many years, there is no doubt in my mind BAA Aberdeen are no longer to the benefit of ABZ & that current growth is "in spite of" rather than "because of" them. OK there are more scheduled routes now than at any time in its history, but I don't think that's thanks to BAA.
As was pointed out, over the years as many routes at ABZ have been lost as there have been gained. I think charges impacting on yields were the death-knell for at least some of them.
Maybe KB reads this forum...maybe someone at BAA can come on here & defend their record at ABZ! Maybe I'll win the lottery...
BMI R:
Are they still focusing efforts on the Embraer, or are they contemplating an equipment change? Maybe they are finding out that out of ABZ, their routes are not suited to the jet, witness AMS & BRU axed. I recall T3 saying that, after their experiment using the type, that it was not suited to their ops & that a turboprop was more efficient. Maybe bmi R will have to look to do something similar to produce better yields out of ABZ? Does using the Embraer out of here work for the airline?
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Barneythedog .... the "other issues" as you call them are the ones that face the end user i.e. the fare paying customer day in day out. Speaking as a frequent traveller rather than airline staff or crew Aberdeen is not an enjoyable experience made even worse when you experience the vastly superior service and infrastructure at nearly every other airport I have travelled through.
It gets tiresome reading every other week in the Evening Depress how passenger figures are up, new lounges are open (who the hell designed those), new flights, Houston here we come blah blah blah when the reality is it is a miserable place to travel through. The positive spin really is a smokescreen on the reality.
It gets tiresome reading every other week in the Evening Depress how passenger figures are up, new lounges are open (who the hell designed those), new flights, Houston here we come blah blah blah when the reality is it is a miserable place to travel through. The positive spin really is a smokescreen on the reality.
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I popped up to Aberdeen for a couple of days the other week and my connection at Heathrow was a breeze compared to my experience at Aberdeen. Now surely that must say something!
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It certainly is a miserable place to travel through and I can definitely say it is even worse to work in at times.
We are restricted to the few check-in desks BAA provides for us and on a daily basis one or two of those is faulty, thus reducing our capacity further. The new expansion plans for the check-in area will not include any more check in desks, just extra queuing space. I'm sure that will please the several hundred passengers on a Friday morning when the GSM/Spanair/KLM/AF/Ryanair queues merge into one... It may help if the BAA 'happy to help' queue controllers actually did just that. They are totally useless and feed the passengers into any queue they fancy so as a handling agent we are fighting a losing battle because the passengers are severely unimpressed before they even reach the check in desk. As anyone would be when you reach the front of the GSM queue when you are actually going elsewhere.
Domestic and international baggage belts are a complete embarrassment. Especially when there are 2/3 large international flights in the arrivals hall at the same time and the last flight's bags appear first. There have been virtual riots over this, with holidaymakers (in shorts & tshirts at 1030pm in freezing cold ABZ) clashing with business travellers, all fighting like kids to get their bags first. In the midst of this the airport duty manager was nowhere to be seen, conveniently busy elsewhere...
BAA ABZ are well aware of all the problems but seem incapable of doing anything about it, or don't want to spend the money to do so. Money is being spent on things that are not a necessity (new lounge at back stands for T3 mainly). Better segregation of incoming/outgoing international passengers is the main priority so they do not need to be lined up like cattle before being run out to their aircraft so as not to mix with inbound passengers in the one and only walkway. Perhaps if BAA consulted the people who matter i.e. the passengers and handling agents who face the problems everyday, they may find out what is actually required to improve things.
Frustrating for all involved
We are restricted to the few check-in desks BAA provides for us and on a daily basis one or two of those is faulty, thus reducing our capacity further. The new expansion plans for the check-in area will not include any more check in desks, just extra queuing space. I'm sure that will please the several hundred passengers on a Friday morning when the GSM/Spanair/KLM/AF/Ryanair queues merge into one... It may help if the BAA 'happy to help' queue controllers actually did just that. They are totally useless and feed the passengers into any queue they fancy so as a handling agent we are fighting a losing battle because the passengers are severely unimpressed before they even reach the check in desk. As anyone would be when you reach the front of the GSM queue when you are actually going elsewhere.
Domestic and international baggage belts are a complete embarrassment. Especially when there are 2/3 large international flights in the arrivals hall at the same time and the last flight's bags appear first. There have been virtual riots over this, with holidaymakers (in shorts & tshirts at 1030pm in freezing cold ABZ) clashing with business travellers, all fighting like kids to get their bags first. In the midst of this the airport duty manager was nowhere to be seen, conveniently busy elsewhere...
BAA ABZ are well aware of all the problems but seem incapable of doing anything about it, or don't want to spend the money to do so. Money is being spent on things that are not a necessity (new lounge at back stands for T3 mainly). Better segregation of incoming/outgoing international passengers is the main priority so they do not need to be lined up like cattle before being run out to their aircraft so as not to mix with inbound passengers in the one and only walkway. Perhaps if BAA consulted the people who matter i.e. the passengers and handling agents who face the problems everyday, they may find out what is actually required to improve things.
Frustrating for all involved
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The 737-700 (which is the variant based in Aberdeen) is arguably the most sought after of all the 73 variants since it has the best range. I am under the impression that they needed the Aberdeen aircraft elsewhere for the winter. Perhaps the BAA just didn't do enough to make it worth Globespans while to stay.
think you'll find the 737-700 Flyglobespan have is not that sought after - it has a fairly similar fuel burn to the 800 as it has the same engines - the cost per seat is therefore vastly higher
barneythedog
Quote:
It doesn't matter about loads it's how much they can charge that matters and Flyglobespan from Aberdeen need a decent yield. He won't get this at Aberdeen during the winter as he does not have a based aircraft
Bear in mind that the aircraft was going to be based over the winter. I can't imagine that the loads have nosedived from the current levels that I am led to believe are high. If Globespan can't make a decent yield with their fares then the BAA at Aberdeen must be a factor.
Loads will have plumetted - Europe in the winter is a nightmare for the charter market with limited places you can fly - the winter market TD serves from Edinburgh is successful ie Prague/Geneva - historically this has been terrible from Aberdeen and obviously continues to be so.
Quote:
The fares Flyglobespan is charging have been kept high and people have not booked.
I will think you will find the high fares are a function of supply and demand. I have seen rock bottom fares - providing you book early! However as seats fill up the fares rise!
The economics of an airline dictate that if you don't get the revenue then you shouldn't fly - TD is learning this very quickly. The revenue required to successfully fly the Aberdeen flights is high so the number of low fares are small. Cabin crew and Flight crew need holiday so crews would need to be sent north again increasing cost. The aircraft will probably be due a maintenance check again increasing downtime.
Quote:
They took a risk and it failed.
Mmmm I would like to see how profitable the summer season has been - Failure... mmm I would be very surprised!
I was referring to the winter schedule
Quote:
Flyglobespan is not low cost it is no frills - there is a significant difference
Again... supply and demand has ensured that cheap seats go very quickly.
As I said above Flyglobespan has not a great deal of cheap seats
Quote:
As for the other 'issues' then surely taxis are down to congestion on Dyce drive:
Perhaps the taxi situation is outside the remit of the BAA but normally the number of taxis is more then the number of people waiting - not the other way round. As for congestion - don't think that is a valid excuse.
Why is congestion not a valid excuse? Surely if a taxi takes 50 mins to get into town then 50 mins to get back then it can only do half then number of trips as 25 mins both ways. Hence half the number of passengers.
Quote:
check in is down to handling agents
No - it is due to the ridiculous infrastructure. To put it simply... too few desks for too many flights. The initial design of the terminal has no room for obvious expansion so they are caught in a corner with the present arrangement. The current situation of cordoning the umpteen queues resembles more of a 'conga dance' when it is busy. Ever been to an airport where you are told which queue to stand in when you enter the terminal since you have absolutely no idea otherwise???
I believe the space issue is being addressed. However if handling agents are short staffed then all the desks are not used - I have walked in there at 5am with big queues and only half the check in desks open. If a desk opens late then a queue forms very quickly. It is also the handling agents responsibilty to manage the queue - have they ever done this when you have been there??
Quote:
and the same for baggage
The main issue is the lack of facilities. It seems commonplace to have 3 or 4 domestic flights in at any one time with only one baggage belt. Again no room for obvious expansion so passengers will have to cope with this arrangement for some time yet I would expect.
Quote:
Immigration must surely be to blame for queues at international arrivals
Perhaps the lack of passport control points are to blame here. That falls under the responsibility of the BAA since they provide the facilities!
I believe this has been increased recently and will be addressed with the expansion of international arrivals however the number of immigration officers at Aberdeen is also an issue as all the desks do not seem to always be manned.
To be honest I don’t find many other airports as stressful as Aberdeen can be nowadays during the peak hours!
I have written to the BAA a couple of times with suggestions and had reasonable courteous letters in return.
think you'll find the 737-700 Flyglobespan have is not that sought after - it has a fairly similar fuel burn to the 800 as it has the same engines - the cost per seat is therefore vastly higher
barneythedog
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It doesn't matter about loads it's how much they can charge that matters and Flyglobespan from Aberdeen need a decent yield. He won't get this at Aberdeen during the winter as he does not have a based aircraft
Bear in mind that the aircraft was going to be based over the winter. I can't imagine that the loads have nosedived from the current levels that I am led to believe are high. If Globespan can't make a decent yield with their fares then the BAA at Aberdeen must be a factor.
Loads will have plumetted - Europe in the winter is a nightmare for the charter market with limited places you can fly - the winter market TD serves from Edinburgh is successful ie Prague/Geneva - historically this has been terrible from Aberdeen and obviously continues to be so.
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The fares Flyglobespan is charging have been kept high and people have not booked.
I will think you will find the high fares are a function of supply and demand. I have seen rock bottom fares - providing you book early! However as seats fill up the fares rise!
The economics of an airline dictate that if you don't get the revenue then you shouldn't fly - TD is learning this very quickly. The revenue required to successfully fly the Aberdeen flights is high so the number of low fares are small. Cabin crew and Flight crew need holiday so crews would need to be sent north again increasing cost. The aircraft will probably be due a maintenance check again increasing downtime.
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They took a risk and it failed.
Mmmm I would like to see how profitable the summer season has been - Failure... mmm I would be very surprised!
I was referring to the winter schedule
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Flyglobespan is not low cost it is no frills - there is a significant difference
Again... supply and demand has ensured that cheap seats go very quickly.
As I said above Flyglobespan has not a great deal of cheap seats
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As for the other 'issues' then surely taxis are down to congestion on Dyce drive:
Perhaps the taxi situation is outside the remit of the BAA but normally the number of taxis is more then the number of people waiting - not the other way round. As for congestion - don't think that is a valid excuse.
Why is congestion not a valid excuse? Surely if a taxi takes 50 mins to get into town then 50 mins to get back then it can only do half then number of trips as 25 mins both ways. Hence half the number of passengers.
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check in is down to handling agents
No - it is due to the ridiculous infrastructure. To put it simply... too few desks for too many flights. The initial design of the terminal has no room for obvious expansion so they are caught in a corner with the present arrangement. The current situation of cordoning the umpteen queues resembles more of a 'conga dance' when it is busy. Ever been to an airport where you are told which queue to stand in when you enter the terminal since you have absolutely no idea otherwise???
I believe the space issue is being addressed. However if handling agents are short staffed then all the desks are not used - I have walked in there at 5am with big queues and only half the check in desks open. If a desk opens late then a queue forms very quickly. It is also the handling agents responsibilty to manage the queue - have they ever done this when you have been there??
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and the same for baggage
The main issue is the lack of facilities. It seems commonplace to have 3 or 4 domestic flights in at any one time with only one baggage belt. Again no room for obvious expansion so passengers will have to cope with this arrangement for some time yet I would expect.
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Immigration must surely be to blame for queues at international arrivals
Perhaps the lack of passport control points are to blame here. That falls under the responsibility of the BAA since they provide the facilities!
I believe this has been increased recently and will be addressed with the expansion of international arrivals however the number of immigration officers at Aberdeen is also an issue as all the desks do not seem to always be manned.
To be honest I don’t find many other airports as stressful as Aberdeen can be nowadays during the peak hours!
I have written to the BAA a couple of times with suggestions and had reasonable courteous letters in return.