ABERDEEN

[Richard Taylor]

Enhanced departure lounge at northern part of the terminal nearing completion - Gate 9 I think it is. Should mean Stand 12 reopens soon. Seating for 100 peeps I believe it said, cost £720k & you will get a lovely view of your Eastern Jetstream awaiting you at the end of it.

2008 to see the runway resurfaced & extended, as reported. First phase 125m of the 300m that the BAA had approved by the cooncil. Works mainly during night.

So WHO is going to benefit from the 125m???? Embraers I believe have had some issues with the length. Suppose everyone will welcome the extra, but is 125m really going to make the difference?

Is the 125m for RYR? Or IAH route?? Or what???

[throw a dyce]

Wellington.
P600 is the Airway that I'm talking about.24/7 CAS.So you admit risking Joe Public for the sake of a few miles,despite WW3 going on around in Class G ? I don't think the RAF would notice what a JS41 looks like screaming past you at 600kts upside down.You are in some of the most dangerous and unpredictable airspace in the UK,down the East Coast Class G.Ah but things are OK down the back.They've got leather seats.

[Wellington Bomber]

Throw A Dyce

If all the Eatern a/c went down P600 it would cause absolute pandomonium, it is too busy as it is and the delays would be huge, why not have an East Coast airway open all the time, I thought all the danger areas off the coast were for Maverick and Goose and his merry men to play in

[throw a dyce]

Wellington,
It was the MOD and CAA that gave us P18 when the RAF are in bed or in the pub.Their trade off was a raising of the base levels of P600 so they could get underneath.How do you think they get to the Danger Areas?
In an ideal world P18 H24 is an improvement.We are not in that world.However most other operators revert back to P600 when P18 is closed.They don't usually have big delays especially turboprops.However Eastern don't care and plough on through Class G.
Fine carry on,but how can you really have a duty of care to your passengers when you are on a RAS at best,but often a much lower service.When you have a piece of airspace which can have Aberdeen,Scot mil,Scot civil,Leuchars,Scot information,Boulmer,an Awacs,a aircraft carrier,or no-one working traffic in it then I get worried.
I have seen some very close calls with all sorts of traffic south of Aberdeen,and I will not fly with Eastern under any circumstance for that reason.I tell my neighbours to boycot them if they can.Reason SAFETY.
Eastern are cowboys and the amount of extra work to provide them with RAS increases our work load to impossible levels,especially when the military are active.What do we get in return.Scottish Football Association.

[Single Spey]

throw a dyce

and the amount of extra work to provide them with RAS increases our work load to impossible levels,especially when the military are active.

So you admit then that the ATC unit where you work doesn't fulfil its duty of care to its customers because it doesn't provide sufficient resources to allow controllers a manageable workload, presumably in the interests of saving money?

Maybe we should let the regulators know

[Richard Taylor]

Poland

I'll leave the ATC/pilot/airline bashing to the people that know what they are talking about...

However I agree "part-time P18" is farcical & should be H24. Either have an airway, or don't.

Apparently BAA are talking to operators about a link between Poland & ABZ, given that some 25,000 Poles now live & work in the area.

Will be interesting to see if anything comes of it, I would envisage something lie 2 or 3x weekly with likes of Centralwings or Wizz. IF anything comes of it as I say.

ps. all I will say is without T3, ABZ would not have links to many places, places that were dropped by other airlines, & that wouldn't be viable for the majority. JUST LOOK OUT FOR THE MILITARY & make sure your TCAS is in good working order!

[Richard Taylor]

Norwegian market

So are we approaching saturation point in the market to Norway or is there still scope for more growth?

Never before has ABZ had more flights to Norway, nor so many carriers operating the routes - SVG, BGO, OSL, KSU, KRS, AES.

Obviously the main routes are SVG & BGO, but could there still be the possibility of routes to new destinations in Norway? I would have thought there was only so many more places in Norway that could be served.

I could see one more, HAU, being linked (as it used to be) but where else?

I could also maybe see competition on OSL, & T3 or bmi trying to muscle in on BGO or OSL as it is trying to do with SVG.

What do fellow ABZ PPRuNers think?

[Richard Taylor]

Paphos back for S08

6th GSM route for ABZ next year, Cyprus being served on same day of op & times as this year.

Would imagine TFS will appear at some point, leaves only MJV Murcia as not reappearing next year.

Aberdonians obviously don't like their Spanish golf, or they're waiting for Trump/Nicklaus/Lawrie to build the courses that are rumoured to be springing up around the Aberdeen area in the years to come!!!

See X9 still not operating BGO, & SVG/AES evening arrival canx last couple of occasions. This to do with waiting for the 4th a/c to be made ready?

[Kiltie]

Throw A Dyce I find your suggestion that Eastern are "cowboys" quite offensive; and am particularly concerned you are encouraging others to boycott their services. I know for a fact Eastern's Ops make landline contact first thing every morning with the MoD to assess what level of military traffic can be expected in the P18 area. They then consider any potential risk to flight safety and re-route via P600 if deemed necessary. Similarly the aircraft's Captains have the unhindered option to request a re-routed flight plan through their Ops if they so wish. The CAA are fully appraised of this process and are satisfied Eastern are conducting a safe operation.

Eastern also liaise closely with the management of NATS Aberdeen, in fact their senior managers have participated in jump-seat familiarisation on their routes and have never implied what they witnessed was "cowboy" behaviour.
You seem to have a big, angry problem with Eastern Throw A Dyce. I wonder if you are the same controller that has such a stern tone on the radar frequency and chastises all the departures that dare to give a passing FL rather than a passing altitude during their first transmission?

[DON GIVACHIT]

kiltie

Regarding Throw a Dyce's remarks. They may appear harsh but as a colleague at ABZ I feel he is only expressing the frustration we sometimes feel when we see the Eastern Fleet arrive en-masse through some of the busiest airspace north of Newcastle. To try and keep a JS41 5 miles away from a 4 ship of F3's/GR4's Typhoons etc when they are carrying out v high G manoeuvres is a nightmare. The fleet's pilots are always desperately trying to get in ahead of other traffic and any significant turns we need to give are sometimes replied to with a sigh. I feel he is right to suggest using P600. If the Eastern Ops set-up could stagger departures and not launch the fleet like a Le-mans start and may help to ease congestion en-route.

Regard in altitude readout on climbout We hava a radar calibrated on QNH not SA belo FL60 and to verify YOUR mode C for Your safety we need altitude passing. We are not being bloody minde but we will be in the poo should any vertical loss of separation occur due to US mis-reading YOUR altitude/FL.

Rant Over

[bad bear]

P18/p600

What is really needed is a single H 24 airway from Aberdeen directly overhead Leuchars then spliting to join the existing route to the west coast as H24 and the part time P18.This would reduce the time CAT were outside CAS without creating an excess of CAS.

[throw a dyce]

Kiltie,
No you have the wrong controller there.I could always work out pressure problems.You can't tell me from the R/T.These are my thoughts about Eastern,not how I work.But don't you think you are playing Russian Roulette with your passengers safety?What are you trying to achieve?

[Richard Taylor]

Caledonian Airborne Engineering

Stewartflyer:

See City Star Holdings have purchased the above, who employ about 30-40 people at Dyce.

Was that the imminent announcement, or is it something else?

[Single Spey]

throw a dyce

Still awaiting your response:

So you admit then that the ATC unit where you work doesn't fulfil its duty of care to its customers because it doesn't provide sufficient resources to allow controllers a manageable workload, presumably in the interests of saving money?

don givachit

To try and keep a JS41 5 miles away from a 4 ship of F3's/GR4's Typhoons etc when they are carrying out v high G manoeuvres is a nightmare.

Perhaps you would have better career selling burgers. No one is forcing you to be a controller.....

[throw a dyce]

Single Spey,
Well I was going to leave it but what the heck.Bit of a St stirrer eh.All services in Class F and G are subject to controller workload.It is getting to the point on Aberdeen INT that the service maybe downgraded to limited RAS.However we do our best with the most diverse traffic mix anywhere in the world.Any service can be downgraded,but giving a RIS makes it worse.It's just when the military are active,it takes a lot of your time watching down to the south,to give Eastern the service they want.If they were in CAS you can concentrate on the rest of it.
I don't know which sleepy hollow you are sitting in,but telling Don Givachit to sell burgers,just smacks of being silly.You are most welcome to come round and we can show you exactly what we do.Funny we were just talking tonight about our new 55 mile limit.You maybe right that perhaps 2 radar controller might not be enough.However the BAA want 2 on a night shift as well so it's pulling the rope at both ends.You're most welcome to apply and join us.You might even get me to train you although rumour has it I'm a right Btard OJTI.

[Kiltie]

Single Spey your anti-controller rants on this forum are becoming predictably biased. Your comments are invariably presented as attacks which undermines them to a considerable extent.

Throw A Dyce; I don't fly for Eastern. However I have experience of their safety management which is impeccable and your suggestion of Russian-roulette with passengers under their care is a very serious remark which I hope you would be willing to substantiate to CAA SRG, particularly as NATS management at ABZ and CAA Flight Operations are aware of their flight planned routings / choices and have not challenged such before. You comment about providing a RAS for Eastern outside the zone placing you under a high workload; it should be said that you are under no obligation to do so. Similarly another poster commented about "Eastern trying to beat everyone" or words to that effect; this is laughable. Do you honestly think Eastern Airways see NEW-ADN as some way of jumping the queue for arrival? I would like to think all ABZ controllers prioritise their arrivals according to (initially) the estimate given in advance by the preceding area controller (please correct me if I am wrong as I am not a qualified ATCO). I have yet to experience favouritism in approach sequencing at ABZ after many years of operating there.

It should be said that Eastern Airways are not the only airline that use the track of P18 during its time of daytime closure. Scottish Control often invite me to travel on this route under a RIS despite the fact we are flight planned via P600. As an example, remember there are at least two other airlines in Scotland that come to my mind that are willing to cancel IFR and conduct their flights under VFR in Class F and G airspace when conditions permit; this is not an option for Eastern Airways' crew such is the nature of their strict operational procedures. Indeed, I observe BMI Embraers accepting RIS from Scottish with direct routings across the same "inactive" P18 airspace regularly. Why are you singling out Eastern?

I am lead to believe that Eastern Airways are the busiest scheduled fixed wing operator out of Aberdeen per daily movement; in which case Throw A Dyce and DonGivAschit would you not be better expressing your perceived concerns to your NATS superiors for consideration than chastising Eastern Airways on such an anonymous forum? I believe it is BAA who agree to the schedule Eastern Airways sets in its arrivals / departures frequency so if you find their flights arriving "en masse" and therfore difficult to control then perhaps they would be the best people to approach. If you truly believe lives are at risk then I hope you will use your professional qualification and its appropriate reporting channels to seek resolve / reassurance rather than scaremongering on Pprune that the fare-paying public shouldn't fly with them.

PS The passing FL/alt on first contact with a radar controller is not peculiar to ABZ. However, it is only at ABZ that I have ever been DEMANDED to re-report my passing ALTITUDE after transmitting a Flight Level. And yes; I have discussed this irritation with NATS at ABZ and hoped it would have been resolved but sadly not. With a departure stop-at-flight-level please be aware most airlines cannot wait until printed transition altitude to set 1013.2 , particularly during days of low pressure, as the level-bust-conscious culture is ever prevalent. Please understand this is a high-crew-workload phase of flight what with after-take-off checks, frequency changes etc.
Moderators; my comments may be more appropriate on the ATC forum; I therefore apologise if this is a thread-creep.

[throw a dyce]

Kiltie,
I have submitted observations to Management about the airspace south of Aberdeen years ago,and the reply was it's under review.Yes you're correct about other airlines,(KLM,BMI,SAS and others) straight lining it in Class G.Scottish civil give them a RIS due to unit instructions.Scot Mil give RAS unless they are too busy with the military.We give them a RAS because we have to vector them.Because Eastern arrive in big bunches,telling them to remain outside controlled airspace would mean they all pile into each other,as well as getting zapped by the military.Eastern is getting my attention because they make almost no effort to fly in CAS,other than when P18 is active.At least the others do.
Well if Nats management or SRG want to plug in and watch the airshow to the south,then they are most welcome.We perform our ATC to all the rules,and give the best service that we can.It's the pilots operating in Class G with the military around,that should be asking themselves the questions.If you looked at the situations that we see in that airspace,and Eastern mainly heading right for it,then you would ask the same questions.I have seen rapid conflictions between turboprops and the military,and the situation can develop in a heartbeat.If the radar controller is working elsewhere on the tube,there can be no time to avoid.This is pop up traffic,sometimes out of low level.Can you Honestly say that this is as safe as it could be.What do Eastern management want? A collision.
As for Eastern wanting to beat everyone.Well this can happen.They often want out of wind runways,until they are told they are number 9 in traffic.They want out of wind runways,against noise abatement.They push a lot for visuals,despite being told vectors for the ILS.Laughable is it.
Ps IT ISN'T ME demanding altitude readouts.I have no problem as it's easy to work it out.That why I give any level stopoffs as an altitude and not a FL just above transition.We aren't all Captain Angry.

[Wellington Bomber]

Throw A Dyce

Sorry to bang on to you again, but you should put all your efforts into making P18 an airway 24hrs full stop. Make the military go and play in their danger areas out over the sea, end of story.

As regard to Eastern all trying to beat each other and other traffic into Dyce, we are all limited to 250knts below 10000ft, which we can do. so why slow us down or vector us away to allow jets that are behind us to land first.

And by the way, when you give us speeds to follow we do not have speed brakes, so to get from 240 down to 200 and to keep a constant descent going let us have plenty of notice. At 200 we can select the 1st stage of flaps and get the gear down.

With regard to requesting runways with a tailwind, I have heard this request once in all the time I have been flying to Aberdeen and if they are a regular operator to Aberdeen they will understand they have little to no chance, as the airport is just too busy.

With regard to visual approaches, I presume to R/W16, we are under the impression that this helps you in most cases to get more traffic in, as you can always tell if ATC want you to go visual by giving you a descent just below the cloud base well in advance. If not just say no and we will quite happily follow your instructions to the letter towards the ADN.

And by the way, I bear no resentment to ATC at ABZ and neither should you towards Eastern. We know you have a tough job combining all the different modes of traffic

[Kiltie]

ThrowA Dyce I fully acknowledge it is not you asking for altitude confirmation; your system of setting a stop altitude rather than Flight Level is a commendable one in that case. Mr. Angry is likely to hear radio silence from me next time his demands bellow through and I am otherwise involved in configuring the aeroplane.

If you are being harrassed by some pilots for visual approaches (I often request such myself in the absence of any knowledge of preceding traffic; didn't know it caused frustration) you would be best to talk to the company's Flight Safety Officer who runs a very communicative culture with the crews and the majority adhere to any requests made by ATC through that channel. I have had a mixed bag of reaction from controllers at ABZ when asking for visuals; some make it very clear in stern terms that it will not be approved; others sound like a weight has been lifted off their shoulders and throw us over to tower almost immediately after cheerily approving the visual approach. Us pilots do try to second guess how busy/quiet you are before making such requests; please don't assume we are collectively setting out to be awkward.

I also sometimes ask for 34 for arrival from the south if 16 is in use; again only if if the environment sounds like ATC are having a quiet time; remember pilots are rarely told what number in traffic they are without asking. The only noise reference at ABZ I can find is for Departures; again perhaps you should reinforce arrival preference to the company's FSO as perhaps crew just aren't aware it's such an issue.

Wellington makes reference to speed control at ABZ. In my experience there is not enough of it. I have regularly been given zig-zag vectors east-west when arriving for 34 when a 250kt descent has apparently caught the controller by surprise (maybe I'm wrong?) Had we had speed control tagged on to the radar heading when checking in then I am sure the flow would have been more manageable. If you tell us what you want we'll do it for you; it's no hardship (unless close in and high). Or maybe ABZ should publish SLPs. Having said that I have it on good authority from NATS ABZ that 250kts around the vectored circuit can be useful, so don't think if we are doing such it is out of hooliganism!

I am still concerned you have a grudge against Eastern T.A.D, which is unfortunate. I hope you will change your mind if you choose to follow the channels of communication I suggest.

[silverknapper]

Dyce

I am curious also as to why you seem to have singled Eastern out for this attack. Are they the only airline to fly in class G under a RAS/RIS? Are they the only airline to request visual approaches? Are they the only airline to request the other end of the runway to expedite their arrival?
I would suggest your remarks are vindictive. Would you care to enlighten us as to who else carries out these heinous actions in an average day?