Oyindo

VK got the recruitment of local pilots very wrong, they were under the illusion that they could offer a pittance wage and it would be gracefully accepted. VK has now been forced to visit a recruitment agency to source its crew, which will of course cost a lot more.

VK will end up with a lot more Caucasian faces in it's cockpits than the locals a good advert for it. My fear is that these agency employees will only be there for the type rating, experience and bugger off back to where they came from seeking better employment opportunities after a few years, VK will be a good training ground for them.
We Nigerian’s have to wakeup to the fact that the clock is being turned back to decades past.

LJT for your information only very few guys accepted the offer for what ever reasons while most did not. Most of us pilots here in Nigeria do have self pride and dignity, so please don’t taint us all with the same brush.

LongJohnThomas

Sn and Rn,
You both have come across as disappointments,having closely monitored your comments in the past.
I had actually thought for a moment that you had something for B***n matter!
Your comments border on racist and absolutely outta yar arses!
How on God's earth would you percieve that pilots,ragardless of base should ever be compared in anyway,with ticketing staff?
I would assume that thats what you guys get,and are happy with it?
Your myopic view has been taken on board! May i re-assure you that you come across as one of those that would rather see the Black man in the category of Bar-tender,gardener,street cleaner etc....
Your ignorance of the plight of those in Los, is, unmatchable!
I suggest that if you have nothing to promote your collegues,which they ARE,?! You gracefully keep your traps shut!!!
VK is boastfully selling the posture of the airline in africa to beat,with what may i ask?! The airplanes? The pay? What?
Take a hike sn,you lack basic education,and i bet,flying airplanes is all you are ever capable of doing!

surely not

LJT your comments are offensive and way wide of the mark. If you had truly taken time to read through my posts, even you would have noticed that I am very pro West Africa.

It was your initial post that tried to compare the pay of a pilot with a ticketing agent, albiet they weren't in the same country. The implication of your post was that VK paid 'locals' poorly because they were 'locals'......... and paid people more at LHR because they weren't. That hinted at racism.

I simply pointed out that pilots 'local' to Heathrow earnt more than Ticket agents 'local' to Heathrow and the same in Nigeria. This is down to local pay and conditions in those countries, plus cost of living.

I don't give a care what colour anyone is, or religion. I'm not convinced you feel the same way.

Unknown to you, there is some very sweet irony in your post

Oyindo

LJT,
I do understand your frustrations, especially when we are treated as second class citizens in our own country by certain individuals and companies supported by government; we get what we voted for. You have to respect other people’s views on this forum, personal attacks only will only tarnish our image further.
Constructive criticisms will be most appreciated. Maybe we should be debating contract staff being taken on versus permanent staff as against ticketing staff. How will this affect VK, the growth of aviation in Nigeria, now and in the future? You can be assured that contract staff will have no loyalty to VK. Maybe this is a short term fix to a long term problem but quite an expensive fix it is, i see a two tier system developing here.

AlternativeProcedure

I think alot of the local pilots who initially got excited about the prospects of flying for Virgin Nigeria have been heavily dissappointed either through a lack of response from VK or lack of proper pay(not meeting their expectations). Either way, I'm out of the race, I'm now with a trusted name in Nigerian aviation(AERO) and I'm relieved as hell about it. Good luck to all you guys still looking for a job especially that first flying job.

AlternativeProcedure

Gunship

SN you guys must do something right to peef old Long Johns off like this

LongJohnThomas

Seems to me like some of you actually think i either have something to gain from this or some ulterior motive.
I need to make it clear that i have woked in nigeria and i am one of those who actually rejected the Vk offer.
I don't really care for my own personal benefit,to comment on the lack of awareness some pilots actually do have of each other.
I had initially thought this forum would provide a channel to make constructive comments to either find ways to better conditions and solutions for pilots,but,this seems not to be happening.
Well guys, i've done my best!
For those who accepted the VK offer, good luck,i hope the money you now earn can actually feed,accomodate and take care of your numerous resposibilities.
For sn and the rest who think that the african only deserves Cr*p for pay, good luck to you too.
I shall rest my case,afterall,i do have an alright paying job which of course could be better,but, keeps me well within my selected lifestyle.
Cheers guys,never meant to lash out in any form of frustration,i just get worked up by people who are'nt sensitive to the plight of others.

Shinobi

It is a very great feeling ,knowing that there are Aviators like LJT,who are interested in the progress of Aviation in Nigeria.This is supposed to be a forum for peole to discuss and suggest ways of preventing and solving problems when they occur and are related to flight crew and "Companies" included.This is not supposed to be a forum for people to express their biased opinions/prejudiced opinions.This problem being discussed is not only for the POilots but for Virgin Nigeria also.If they want to be cost wise,the option is very visible to all(or most).It does amaze people like me when I see some opinions and I cannot help but accept the fact that some comments are not being made from anything but a prejudiced opinion of things.I relly hope that we will have more people like LJT to give their opinion,I mean,people are suggesting that other Pilots like them should accept and be thankful for getting conditions that they would not accept.What else does this mean.

Thanks,LJT

surely not

I am not trying to muzzle discussion, and it appears from the general comments that VK is not paying a basic as handsomely as other established carriers. So be it, people have the choice of accepting the offer or rejecting it as per LJT.

What I find tedious is UK based pilots expecting to come back to Nigeria and earn UK comparable wages. This has nothing to do with race, religion, or wanting to see any group of people disadvantaged. I am simply acknowledging that pilots are no different to any other group of workers, you get paid according to 'local' rates not 'International' rates.

I sense that some of the comments are because people thought that just because the Virgin brand was involved the pay levels would be on a par with Western levels and not reflect the local market. Alas VK has to make money because it is a private company and has set its levels to achieve this. As it matures and the routes grow maybe it can adjust its pay levels. I don't know whether this will happen it isn't in my control. If the levels are as wrong as people are posting on here then VK will have to review .them.

There is no way that I believe an African should be restricted to low paid jobs, and my posts in general reflect my enthusiasm for the growth that West Africa could and should achieve.

So LJT plse don't post anymore rubbish about me wishing to oppress anyone, it simply couldn't be further from the truth

Oyindo

We don’t expect VK to pay European wages to it’s locally based pilots but expect a fair wage to be paid. My problem is that a two tier system on wages is developing, international wages for the contract pilots and poor local wages for the locals.
Both categories of pilots will be sitting side by side and working under the same flying/operating conditions.
There is nothing wrong in UK based or other pilots overseas wanting to earn UK/Internationally comparable wages in Nigeria. After all when VK advertised they were looking for Nigerian Expatriates to come join them. It would be ludicrous for anyone to knowingly put them selves on the poverty line, but that is a matter of personal choice. It is quite disappointing to see LTJ and others not being able to be part of the VK family because they could not affort to. They all must have had great hopes, it not the end of the world, do keep posting LTJ. I wish you all the very best, VK don’t deserve guys like you.
There are pilots of many years standing flying B727’s as Captains for local airlines, some are now taking up positions as a co-pilot’s on the B737-300. That’s what I call having balls, their faith in VK is astounding. I do hope they will not be disappointed.
I would like to see the same local terms and conditions for contract pilots, earning the same wages as the locals doing the same job. I am sure SN would agree with me on that one, after all we don't want to see anyone disadvantaged.

LongJohnThomas

Sn,
I'm really sorry for the sudden outburst of emotions,i do realize that you are equally entitled to your opinions,whether i like them or not,then again,you don't have to like mine.
At the time,i found your comments to be offensive and either way, be it the 'F**K THE LOCALS', or the 'COMPANY BOY' scenerio,i just could not stomach the fact that your views send the message that the so called "locals" deserve less!
A B737 FLOWN IN AFRICA IS FLOWN IN THE SAME MANNER AS IT IS FLOWN IN EUROPE OR ELSEWHERE!
Unfortunate for some,but true!
I think the locals at least, are owed salaries that match those of the airlines they left to join VK!
Its not nice to see your fellow human in the dumps and be happy!
Aviation is a capital intensive business,and those who don't wish to spend money to make money,always end up disasterously,that sn,i'm sure you WILL agree with.
Cheers guys, noffence meant,and i hope none taken?!

surely not

LJT your logic defies my obviously limited abilities at comprehension. You state-

'I think the locals at least, are owed salaries that match those of the airlines they left to join VK!'

I don't know of any business, anywhere in the world that sets its salaries according to this statement. So if a long service accountant in USA leaves his job andgoes to work in Sri Lanka, you say he should get the same money as he could earn in USA, despite that being way in excess of the market rate? This then has the effect of destabilising the market in Sri Lanka to the detriment of the people who need toemploy accountants.

Sure a 737 is flown the same anywhere in the world, but pilots are not paid the same in Romania as they are in USA or UK or Nigeria. The reason.............. the economies are different.

Oyindo, re your point re Contract staff and their rates of pay. They get paid a different rate as they are on limited term contracts, not 'jobs for life'. This is the case in all areas of the world. An I.T. contractor will earn more than an employed colleague because they do not have a guarantee of work after the contract finishes. The benefit to the company using them is that they know how long that cost is on the books.

GlobalFlyer

Surely Not,

I will have to agree with you on this. Of course, salaries are based on local economic conditions, cost of living and so many other local factors.

I've heard that China Eastern Airlines MD-11 pilots in the 1990s were paid roughly USD 1,000 per month if Im not mistaken. Back then, it was probably a good renumeration considering the local cost of living. I would assume they got a reasonable allowance for foreign travel. If this Chinese pilot would move to California, say, he would have significantly higher expenses such as education for children, housing, etc,etc, etc.

Virgin Nigeria is not a charity. It is a privately-owned business entity and as such it is out there to turn in profits to its shareholders which include Nigerian institutional investors. Just because the Virgin brand is implicated, doesn't mean local salaries in Nigeria for permanent cockpit crew positions ought to be similar to those salaries in the US or Europe. Contract pilots are required, and are justifiably paid higer because it's a short term contract, positions which will expire once Nigerian pilots are type-rated on the A340 for example. Can you think of any British pilot who would want to locate to Nigeria for 6 months or a year, earning a fraction of what he does back home???? NO. So this is basically an arrangement to get Virgin Nigeria off the ground at a time the government is pressuring it to expand quickly.

Let us all remember, the game is different at start-up. Give it some time, a couple of years, and the roster will be entirely Nigerian or mostly Nigerian, and pay levels will surely rise as Virgin Nigeria starts to break even by 2007.

However, I agree with some that Virgin Nigeria should not have misled the public into believing expatriate Nigerian pilots would move back to Nigeria to live the same lifestyle they enjoyed in the West or elsewhere.....it was only a PR mistake which they need to rectify somehow.

Oyindo

SN
As I have stated on previous posts, I am aware that contract pilot’s wages will be higher than the permanent ones. I can’t understand why VK will be willing to pay more for Contract pilots, than make it possible for the likes of LTJ and others join up.

Contracts even though they have a fixed period of time, is always renewable. There are a few cases where expatriate contracts have rolled in to decades at the detriment of progression of the locals, is quite frustrating to us. This should only be as a last resort for VK to fall on too. It should only be for a limited time while the relevant government agencies keep an eye on this to prevent abuse. I see it being abused anyway.

By the way there are no more ``jobs for life`` these days be it permanent or contract. I don’t know about you, if I was looking at changing jobs I would be looking for job that paid me more be it anywhere in the world.

In some countries today, the locals are being paid more than contract ones, while enjoying better conditions. There are also many cases where less experience expatriates have come over to Nigeria and are being placed over more experienced locals and paid loads more and even more than they were earning in their home countries. This has not had a destabilised effect on the country so your analogy does not full hold up here, it is only pi$$ing off more people.

So PLEASE let try and be positive about things and hope we locals can be given a chance to contribute to the progress of own country, than always being knocked down by others. I know some people take pleasure in that.

ACN_Pilot

I really dont understand why certain people here dont get it, its frustrating cos we are loosing focus and seriously digressing. Right here we go, if u want a pilot from Aero contractors(for example) to come and fly for Virgin Nigeria, you have to pay him either the equivalent of what he's getting or more, or the terms and conditions have to be alot better than what he presently has. Its as simple as that. You cannot be offering Pilots 3/4 of what they already get and expect them to run to Virgin Nigeria. Virgin got it very very wrong, all this crap about they are a profit making organisation, well so are the other airlines at the moment and they are pay alot better than what is on offer.

surely not

ACN Pilot that is well put and I don't disagree with you

Rani

Anyone has an idea if the 3rd A320 will be added in November as planned? I recall VGN disclosed this info a while back, adding that the 737-300 will be introduced in December after a period of training.

LongJohnThomas

Sn,
I see you finally understand where i was coming from.
ACN pilot, GOOD JOB! You finally were able to educate those with doubts.
I never said the Vk pilots were to be paid the same as pilots in europe,and i certainly did not imply that.
I only was pointing out the fact that the local going rates are much higher than what VK pays the currently employed pilots.
The other local carriers pay twice what VK pays, to their esteemed "local",but permanent crew as you like.
The fact still remains that i think VK wants to sell the "locals" short!
I also think Sn,that you must be on the management team that sells the idea that the locals as you put it,are'nt worth more:only an opinion, NO OFFENCE MEANT SIR!?
Cheers mate.

surely not

LJT, sorry if I misled you with my comments. I have nothing to do with the management of the VK crew, flight deck or cabin.
Those I have met are excellent people and no way would I support selling them short.

LongJohnThomas

Nice one sn.