Let's not forget that there are an awful lot of people who are at Flybe by default. ie they were employed by BA cityexpress or Conect and were taken over. They I think you could say were forced to work for Flybe.
Having been at citiexpress myself where the scheduling agreement was second to none, I can understand the upset.
I know this may have already been said as I have'nt read the whole thread.

James Brown

Why the attitude towards your colleagues? For your information most don't intend to leave for SSTR and easy fo's earn similar to dash skippers.

Your officially part of the problem. I've a feeling you'd happily accept a pay cut. Why not volunteer for one?

If you think you are going to be any safer/less fatigued when working for the likes of EZY or RYR - think again - 4-5 earlies/lates on the trot is a killer! While the pay is marginally better, it is not much after the taxman takes his cut; the grass is not necessarily greener - just a diffrent shade of brown.

Don't be a rat leaving the sinking ship because the Flybe ship is not sinking (yet) but it seems as if the current 'watch leaders' need to get a grip and focus on the morale of their crew-mates. Without their crew-mates and their good-will, a watch-leader is nothing; nothing at all - just a little insignificance who may get paid more but who is seen as trivial and shallow by others.

At the moment, however, things seem a little arse-about-face and morale is low. So, if you feel aggrieved/let down by the exeter office - then vote accordingly but without malice. The message that any number of no-votes sends should be taken into account by the management - because, in the event of an accident, the company's working conditions would be considered by any subsequent safety investigation......leaving the company at risk of litigation. Certainly, any such career worries are a major human-factor distraction and a big operational safety-risk - (you only have to look at the crew in the US who overflew their destination while 'discussing' rostering and company policy - amongst others). One might even consider a letter to the CEO (copied to BALPA & CAA) stating one's concerns about the distracting effect this unrest is having on operational safety margins.

Ultimately, I would humbly suggest that if everyone (inc management and CC) states their case unemotionally and with an open mind they might find method in the apparent madness of the other side....maybe! However, I would also say that if the company cannot explain why they can afford a large planned expansion, new aircraft and higher pay/bonuses for execs, while apparently doing the opposite for the crews, then they aren't going to get very far and the crew will almost certainly work-to-rule or jump overboard. Simples!

On the other hand, if the majority of pilots vote yes, then just accept it and get on with the job - that's democracy. Other companies seem to be, or soon will be, recruiting - so you could have another option.

Good luck whatever happens:):)

Ballsout, that's a good point, and Flybe working practices have been a real wake up for those from a proper airline ie citiexpress.


Do tell what exactly you are going to leave for then? Are Ezy going to have a special scheme for hacked off Flybe drivers? What makes them so special I wonder?
Or is it more likely they know loads of Flybe people want out so will take full advantage of that fact? You will more than likely be paying through the nose for a TR. You will not get a nice regional base where you live. Gatwick anyone? You will more than likely be on random rostering. Maybe even hourly paid? Sick pay? And lets face it the Flybe pension is pretty good.
As flipster says if it's lifestyle improvement you're after EZY isn't the place to go. And for a skipper to move to EZY as an FO, well I dread to think how long an upgrade may take. EZY have plenty of guys knocking on the door of a command already.
I assume you knew the salary when you joined. Why did you?

Oh and from what I can see Flybe are making a profit. Do share with us your insight on why the management are in for a 'lynching.'

Pastures new
 

Some good posts here. Truth is right now there are few other options in the UK for disgruntled Flybe drivers but if that situation changes there will be an exodus of enormous proportions - and not just from the right seat. I personally know Captains with Exec jet options ready to go and others with a military background who have applied to Virgin.

I'm sure you're right that the Easy lifestyle is tiring and 5 earlies or lates in a row is hard (but arguably no harder than 3 earlies followed by 2 or 3 lates which is what Flybe offer). The big reason people will still leave for Easy is that:

They work you hard, but they pay you properly for that
They offer 5/4/5/3 compared to 5/2/5/2 and even 6/2 at Flybe. Your Easyjet driver gets 5 days a month more leave to enjoy their life!
They fly 'proper' jets from which a world of doors open elsewhere

Comparing 2 people I know:

1 joined Flybe 4 years ago and takes home £2000 a month as a F/O
1 joined Easy and is now a Captain (expat) taking home 8000 Euro a month

They both work hard but who would you rather be??

It's a no brainer mate - and everybody here knows it!!

DP

Red rag...... BULL! Red rag.............. BULL! Red rag.................... BULL!!!!

HidekiTojo: What is your point, you have no point of substance.

Desk-pilot: Your are not comparing like with like. F/O taking home £2000 and a Capt taking home 8000 euros, which is actually just over £7000.

BALLSOUT: Flybe were "given" about £150,000,000 from BA to take BA Connect from them. That allowed Flybe to expand their business and be in the position they are in now. A good number of pilots were offered the opportunity to go to BA Cityflyer, some went, some did not and some went to various airlines.

james brown: you make some valid points. I think it is important to remember, that in terms of the BA Cityexpress SA, whilst Flybe could not accept the gold plated one that was enjoyed by those at BACX, it was a hell of a lot better than the one Flybe had at the time, so I understand.

To all: if the latest vote is a NO, despite the recomendation of the CC to accept, then I assume the CC will stand down - this will result in a new CC being formed, which will take months, by which time a lot may change, perhaps not for the better, and the present offer will be withdrwan.

Ladies and Gentleman, I suggest by not accepting this offer, one may be shooting one's self in one's foot. Perhaps something to consider.

Only those pilots who were on the RJ were given a CitiFlyer option unless you could find an RJ pilot willing to swap with you

Well I am not sure that is entirely true, but its water under the bridge and we have to move on.

Sorry I have just re read my original post, and whilst I said a "good number of pilots" I perhaps should have said "some pilots", I can assure you it was not exclusive to RJ type rated pilots. There were some EMB145 guys offered positions as well.

Both feet shot off then! How can anyone vote for a paycut at a time of profits and masses of awards??

Balpa cc
 

I'm curious Lord Moulton Brown why you feel the present CC should stand down if the vote is a "no"? I for one don't blame them for having such a tough time negotiating with such an intransigent mgt. They're our elected representatives, they are doing their best and my understanding is that Flybe mgt insisted that this offer was to be made only subject to it being recommended to the pilot community. In order to present the offer I believe they agreed to recommend it, that doesn't mean they agree with it or that we are bound to accept it.

If we vote no I would guess that the matter may be referred to ACAS who as an independent entity will I think laugh hysterically at the management who think it's right to freeze staff pay for one year, offer 2% the next and meanwhile help themselves to 28% rise and free flats in Kensington, interest free loans galore, £500 000 flotation bonuses and the like.

Nobody of sane mind can seriously suggest this will be judged as 'reasonable behaviour' and I would expect ACAS to find that the union were being quite fair and balanced in looking for a rise in the 5-6% range.

ACAS or industrial action - I don't mind so long as a fairer settlement prevails and the CC have my full backing on this.

DP

Over the space of four years of employment within one company the pilot is still an FO making £2000 and in another company over the same period of time another pilot has graduated to a captain and making £7000. Pretty clear point if you ask me!

DP, I get you completely and support what you say. Lord Molton you have no point of substance.

Wishful thinking DP. Good luck.

Bigjarv, I think I do. but am fed up with this trivia, if you and the rest don't like it try another company and see how you feel in 5 years from now.

If there was anywhere to go, believe me we would and it would have been one year after I joined which was standard within Flybe due to the terrible terms and conditions. Stepping stone airline, get some great experience and move on. Industry has been pretty bad recently so options to leave have been limited as I'm sure you are aware. With no where to go, better make the best of where we are. A successful profitable company can do better. We should be allowed to make a stand. Hope that is clear.

By the way I'm insulted that you refer to our terms and conditions as trivia. No one is making you read all this! How very dare you!! xx

And there folks, we see an example of why this T&C's in this industry have slumped. It seems fighting for fair pay is 'trivia' in the world of Lord Molton Brown. :mad:

I'd broadly agree Six, although the payrise for an F/O moving to the 195 is hardly a quantum leap in terms of lifestyle.

six-sixty, please don't think those of us on the BACX are any less PO'd. We may still have our jet salaries but we haven't had any sort of pay rise or increments to speak of since the merger & none of the BACX T&C transferred across

Sorry Bluff point taken no offence intended

Clearly have neglected to notice my industry leading salary and BA Mainline scheduling agreement that we have on the 195 fleet. Must stop all the fussing immediately. :ugh:

Oh no, hang on a mo......

Let's stop the dash vs jet bull. We all deserve an equal pay rise. Let's face it the jets are coming. I speak as a dash pilot but plan as a jet jockey.

Lord MB (and any others with similar views) wake up and smell the coffee:

Pay - after the first 2% rise:
a flybe jet Captain will earn £21000 less than ej Captain.
a flybe tp Captain will earn £27000 less than ej Captain.
a flybe jet FO will earn £3500 less than ej FO.
a flybe tp FO will earn £15000 less than ej FO.
Per Diems - because of ejs sector pay verses our laughable £1.98/duty hour:
an ej captain gets more for doing one sector than a flybe captain gets for a 12 hour day.
an ej FO gets more for doing two sectors than a flybe FO gets for a 12 hour day.
Days Off - I agree that on average ej pilots probably do longer flying days than flybe pilots, and 5 earlies on the run must be tiring, however:
ej get 150 days off a year, while flybe get 108 - that's 42 extra days off per year, or about a month and a half !!!!!!!
It is the long-standing spineless attitude of Lord MB and his ilk that has lead to the terms and conditions at flybe - the UKs third biggest pilot employer - being so far behind the rest of the industry. In voting yes to this deal these craven management apologists are both stabbing their colleagues at flybe (who are now developing a spine - evolution in progress - its beautiful to watch) in the back and, indirectly, jepodising pilots terms and conditions throughout the rest of the industry.

My NO vote is in - I am ready to strike.

Resurgam

I am proud to have you as a colleague. I am also prepared to down tools. We are a growing majority.

Our integrity and principles are more important than French's bank account that's for sure.

Let's show the management that treating pilots fairly is more cost effective than shafting us.

I agree with a lot of what you all say. there is no doubt you are underpaid.

But as I say to anyone who talks about industrial action with the exception of the BACX guys:

Did you know the package before you signed up? If so why did you join?

Stick at the negotiations though, I fully agree with you. But I am confused as to why some of the more vocal folk here joined Flybe in the first place.

The question also sticks in my mind. What does a turboprop First Officer feel he/she is worth? "when I were a lad" (in best yorkshire accent!) £2k take home was, and still is a decent salary. You are in a completely different job to an EZY FO so why should you be paid the same?

Aspirations. Is it wrong to expect an improvement over time?

I for one would like to maintain or, shock horror, even improve my lifestyle. Unfortunately Flybe's latest offer is a reduction and a big one and it was set to be a reduction for the next 5 years at least.

Would you accept that?

Good job I left.

It was said tongue in cheek wingo. However I do maintain that taking home £2k is a decent salary. Paying for training included. Go to EZY and fork out over £24k of salary for the TR. That's got to come from somewhere. I have lost track of their schemes but the last one I saw was cash up front so that is 24k of taxed salary. More like 36k then.
I'm not saying we should be grateful to have a job at all, I agree there needs to be a good offer next, not the drivel that has been forthcoming so far. But i get exceptionally irritated reading comments from people in Flybe for 5 minutes getting militant about their package.
LSM, aspirations are one thing but if someone joined say two years ago, or later as a cadet, they knew what the pay scale was. Bar an RPI increase which sadly we are lacking right now, I don't see what they have to complain about.

Wingo Wango, I completely agree, I signed up for Flybe with the understanding that I would never earn the same as BA, EZY etc and I do not expect a 30% pay rise to bring me inline with them, HOWEVER, I did sign up to an airline that was rapidly growing from a smalltime player into a very large european operator. I don't think it's wrong that we should expect that our pay and conditions should improve inline with that.

When directors are picking up this level of pay rise I think it's an insult to be told that they can't even match inflation. Until I see something that includes inflation + something to represent the scale of our expansion then it's a no from me. Then we'll cross the small matter of scheduling...!

Yes but one would argue that just because it was the only airline recruiting two years ago people shouldn't have joined expecting a vast salary increase down the line. If they could have earned more elsewhere, be it away from flying then it is a free market. Again some people save before learning to fly.
Sadly the " my loan costs me £800 a month so I deserve more money" is another symptom of the buy a job quick fix craze which is destroying this industry. The chap who took the flybe job with crippling repayments may well have been better served not being in the situation were he is in so much debt. Plenty of people have qualified without these horrendous figures, but by saving and learning to fly as they go.
I can't stress enough that I am on the side of a pay increase. I just take issue with some of the reasoning I see here.

James Brown

And your attitude isn't? I joined Flybe because I didn't have to buy a TR and I thought they well actually I was told by the recruiters that Flybe is a decent employer and the company is going places, good bases, good lifestyle etc (it's all lies)

This is about the management rewarding themselves huge amounts and leaving the employees out in the cold. Morale is at an all time LOW.

We have several plus millionaires walking around Exeter. We have been lied to. We constantly have stupid emails. We hear about rewards we hear about this about that. Then we get financially raped. They treat us like fools, constantly trying to pull the wool over our eyes and treat us like mugs.

To average £2k PCM Net you will need to be a Yr3 Dash FO and fly plenty.

We don't expect easyjet/virgin/ba/Thomascook/NASA pay we expect a fair comparison. Even ignoring other airline payscales we have all helped the company to get where it is we accepted a pay freeze, now we deserve a Pat on the Back...

Thats the first grounded non emotional post you have made here and I agree 100%.
We may have to agree to disagree on my view that everyone joined in full posession of the facts and terms as they stood and were published. But it is my opinion and thankfully we are all entitled to one.
But yes, now that shares are available they should be being given to the staff as they were when Ezy floated. That may be a way to retain staff when this great mystical free recruitment drive starts. Though I fear it will not be as free or on as good terms as some here may hope.
The free market dictates that the risk takers are entitled to higher rewards. I have no issue with directors earning good money. Were I in that position though I would drive a Ford fiesta to work. Keep a low profile etc.
Incidentally an acquaintance is interviewing next week for a job on a King Air paying more than a 195 skipper. Now how does that work!:ugh:

james brown

I can see what you are saying and I share your views to a point. You have alot of new sponsored cadets who signed up to the various Flybe schemes knowing full well what the costs involved were, and what the salary was (£1700 take home) before they signed on the dotted line. You cannot have it both ways, sign up to it knowing what it is then whinge your tits off that you cannot pay back your loans on that meagre salary, it's a tad hypocritical and spells a little bit of a lack of research & naivety in my opinion. But I suppose that is a slightly different issue, the company is alot larger than the sponsored cadets so we need to move forward.

No emotion here I can assure you.

2% is a paycut that's why these destructors of the industry are 'moaning'.

There are plenty FOs around that started on a scheme, did the sums and decided they could make ends meet on the megre salary. It wouldn't be easy, but possible. During training BALPA successfully negotiated a £7000 pay cut for them. The results of the fiscal calculations suddenly look a lot worse, then it takes three years to get back to what was the starting salary.

In the latest offer the company offering a 12 month payment holiday for sponsored FOs is just an admission that they aren't paid enough. It is just storing up trouble for the future to take it in my opinion.

A £7000 pay cut? Really?

Last deal I remember was a starting salary of £26800 reducing to £23000 for new joiner FOs. Even with my limited maths, that is not £7K.

Clearly it is not only the managers who are top notch BS artists.

OK sorry if I got my numbers wrong. My mistake, it was a really good pay cut as it was only the best part of £4000. A trifling amount. :ugh:

It seems our management aren't the only ones who can focus on the petty and miss the point.

Starting salary pre-2007 pay deal was £26191 to be precise :8

The FOs on that starting rate then got 4%/4%/4% over three years but subsequent new joiners were cut to £23,000.

With respect, that's :mad:. Can you list any differences between the roles, responsibilities, stress levels and knackerdness of a Flybe FO and an EZY - or any other operator for that matter - FO? The same goes for the skippers. We ALL deserve to be paid to going rate for our job, which is a bloody good one and a bloody hard one.

This delay is intolerable. We were told clearly there was no more negotiation to be had. Why are we not being ballotted for ACAS or the next ultimate step NOW?

What's the latest on the E175s?
 

When do the E175s start to arrive? What is the delivery rate expected to be? Any word on potential bases on the continent beyond the UK?

Iver - who knows, it's managements other big game, guess where the plane stops!!
That's not mentioning the arguments starting over jets in GLA being crewed from MAN and EDI from BHX etc etc....

Frankly if they don't get pay sorted there won't be enough people left to fly them.

Waiting for Easyjet and BA non rated recruitment to start. Everyone I've spoken to, bar those in the regions of INV, IOM etc are waiting for the starting pistol.

You better be sorry, wind your neck in chopper, the bidding system is transparent, those council members would have got their e-jet positions based on seniority. I know exactly how long at least one of them has been in the company and he easily qualified on his date of joining. Now grow up :=