Interesting!!

The Sea Dog is on the mark here. The bidding system is published and available for all to see, there are no backhanders.

We may disagree with how the CC are going about things, but nasty little allusions to backhanders do us no credit whatsoever.

The bid system has yet to be published for the summer bids. It's rather late if I might add.

The bids has been completed for the summer bid, look at IB's latest newsletter for confirmation, if you mean for the next bid document it's early, when did we all fill in the last bid form?

Fare enough, opinions yes, misguided and uninformed speculation NO. I've seen the latest newsletter and yes it does appear unfair towards EDI & GLA that the aircraft are being remote crewed but the MAN promotions to the jet are internal and one thing has nothing to do with the other. By your thinking a whole base's promotions would be skewed towards the chief pilot's favourites.

Bully, nope, but if I were flying with you I'd voice the same sentiment, what you are alluding to is untrue

Copper,

I'm no great fan of the management at present and I certainly disagree with what's happening in Scotland. But the fact is you're playing the men instead of the ball and in a particularly undignified way.

This may be an anonymous forum, but some could still argue your posts to be libellous. Unless you have some groundbreaking evidence of your colleagues' corruption, you might want to ask yourself whether an apology is in order (certainly one of them reads this and he's a man held in high regard by those who know him).

Well said Smiley

Regards P

Chopper (and dear God aren't you living up to that name),

Putting a flimsy question mark, using terms like 'allegedly', or 'it doesn't look good', or offering to apologise if you're wrong in no way absolves you from the content of what you said. You have made an unsubstantiated and potentially damaging comment about people who've done no wrong and need to either publish your evidence or withdraw the statement.

To give you a basic legal grasp, it's rather like my saying, 'Are you talking bollocks?', 'You seem to be talking bollocks. It doesn't look good' and 'You are talking bollocks.'

The window dressing varies, but the content is semantically and legally the same.

Speaking to the reps in the crew room it would appear the company demanded that the phrase "we strongly recommend the acceptance of this offer" was included in the deal otherwise they wouldn't offer it.

Although they also said that when the offer gets rejected (am I jumping the gun saying that?!) BALPA will have more bargaining power because they can tell Flybe/ACAS or whoever, we've strongly recommended this offer to our members and they've still declined so it puts more pressure on the company to pull out something better. Whether or not that will hold any weight remains too be seen...

Brilliant. They wanted the phrase included otherwise they wouldn't offer the offer that was going to be rejected because it was no better than the deal you are already on.

There must be logic in there somewhere but I can't see it.

One has to ask. Would BA or EZY have stood for this if it's true?!

yawn........now can we please get back to the point?????
 

Chopper copper............... tit !

Wingo, you hit the nail on the head, thats exactly the way it should have gone.
I appreciate the CC are working hard for our interests but I also expect them to make honest statements to their members and not ones that the company have persuaded them to make.
Enough of this James Bond stuff, I'm not intelligent enough to work out a CC statement isn't really what the CC are thinking but bla bla bla.........just tell it like it is. :ugh:

25th Feb 2011, 16:16 #412 (permalink) Quality Time

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Age: 50
Posts: 62


Reading this thread reminds me exactly of Balpas dealings with Easyjet in the early nineties. Secret meetings, lack of communication with the members etc.
Oh and ultimately a big let down and the reason I left Balpa.( (for the second and final time)
I really hope you guys have better luck.



Staying True to Form I see!

Well whatever they are doing behind closed doors they need to do it fast. No more final, final, final, final offers. Those of us on a dash FOs salary are struggling with the practicalities. The time for a talk is over.

Maybe there should be an impartial person at every meeting that videos the whole meeting and then broadcasts it on aims so we ca all read it. That would most certainly stop the BS wouldn't it?

Everyone needs to remember here, whatever deal gets excepted you will be back paid to the start of negotiation so don't fret to much and accept a rubbish deal that isn't as rubbish as the last just because you are desperate for your money now. That is exactly what happened last time and sadly most of those guys that voted to accept left anyway.

There are a lot of guys/gals here that want a good deal for everybodypresent and future so that we can stay and make something better out of this airline rather than something better for 'them'.

But I do agree this is going on and on and on..... Final offers Mr French?

Obviously Mr Strong hasn't sorted it so perhaps you need to step in?

Also BALPA please ballot us next time for a realistic request rather than a demeaning 5-6%.. If we are to negotiate effectively we need to be serious at the first instance and not try and second guess what the company might go for. Rather, as a few others have pointed out, 10 to 20 or even more % should have been the starting figure and this should not have been thrown in for negotiation with the scheduing aggreement.

Or perhaps, food for thought, if we were to accept the latest agreement on scheduling and Ts and Cs then I would need another 30% at least.

So many people talking so much nonsense. If you don't like what you've got you should resign. In fact you should never have accepted the offer of employment you were given. Go and do something else and then after a while you can complain about that too. Some people are never happy. Even if Flybe gave you a 20% rise you would still find something to complain about. There's a long line of people who would gladly change places with you. I'm glad I don't have to share a flight deck with you lot.

Benchmark ditto! Lets all go pay to fly :mad:

The best deal I heard is a certain captain pushing for 5 on 5 off. I know I would be happy with that! But the company wont go for it unless everyone pushes for it!

benchmark,

Go elsewhere? Do something else? I suggest going back to the spotters forum for you...

Ditto. Benchmark you shouldn't talk about things you clearly know nothing about. Kindly go away.

burpbot - 5 on 5 off thats almost part time.....Sometimes i do wonder

As much as it pains me to say it there is some truth in what Benchmark & Imfedupofbleeting are saying...........those that accept the very low starting salary on the Dash as an F/O go in with their eyes open.
Saying that if all the airlines are doing this then there is little choice, yes you could through away the 80K of training you have just paid for and try a different job, but somehow I doubt that will happen.

The bottom line here is that if this thing goes to Acas/strike then this is the sort of response we can expect from the general public who are not aware of the difference in salaries between FlyBe and other airlines and who quite frankly don't give a t**s anyway.

Will it stop me fighting for a more industry standard wage ? Not a chance. :=

Wages and inflation?
 

I think some people here have forgotten about the high level of inflation coupled with real-term pay cuts these guys have been experiencing. What might have been a salary that was tight a few years ago (or even months ago) could suddenly become a real struggle, particularly if cadets have a fixed interest loan which doesn't take into account the current low interest rate.

I personally have been finding even the fuel price rise affect my expendable income, let alone anything else.

I don't work for Flybe, but I for one sincerely hope that you guys get at least a pay rise rather than a pay cut!

Agree with you Bullet190.

However... equally, when you start flight training, you don't necessarily know where you are going to end up - certainly more mentored and sponsored schemes for FlyBE exist now, and the cadets on these know full well what the starting salary is at FlyBE.

However, when I started my training, I wasn't lined up onto any particular airline and did it off my own back. So therefore, when I started the odds were equal as to whether I was going to BA, bmi, easyJet, FlyBE or anywhere else.

As my training progressed, it became increasingly clear that my 2 options were: 1/ FlyBE and be bonded for 3 years on the Dash. 2/ Ryanair and fork out for a type rating (which I fundamentally disagree with). So really, there was no option for me at all.

It hurts me to think of the guys I trained with now, some of them are taking back £4000 a month after tax, whereas if I have a good month, the most I can look for is under 1/2 of that.

You can adapt your living styles to suit - and I have. I can just about break even each month without saving any money - I have had to make sacrifices in order to do this (part of the reason my long term girlfriend left me) - I haven't taken a holiday since I started work in this company, I regularly turn down days out because I can't afford the petrol, and I cannot do anything outside of work that I want to do, because I just quite simply cannot afford it. So you can adapt your lifestyle to suit.

However, that's not the point at all. The point is that at the end of the day, we, as pilots, should not be worrying about not being able to fill up the car, pay bills, and at the same time worry about the cost of living. Especially not with the responsibility that is enstowed in us.

Just out of interest, I'm a year 3 FO now, shortly to become Year 4. I take home, on average £1800 a month... and this is how my salary goes, according to my last budget:

After Tax: 1800
Rent and bills: -650
Flight training loan: -500
2 Tanks of diesel petrol: -150
Assorted d/ds and various other expenses: -100

So if my maths is correct, that in turn, leaves me with £400 to play with for the rest of the month. Which I can do, but it certainly isn't comfortable to live with.

assymetricdrift,

I hear you, many of us including myself have first hand experience of this. When I first started I was on even a worse deal than that but I knew what i was getting into.
The point is if you had turned down the job as has been suggested above you know there would be 10 more standing behind you ready to step in your shoes....some of which were born with a silver spoon and can afford to take the hit.

The general public don't give a monkeys about any of this though, you are a pilot with a great office view so there is no sympathy for you.

Of course they are also unaware of the massive bonuses that our leaders are awarding themselves, the fact that our leader earns more than BA's leader, has just received a 1 Mil interest loan and has just treated himself to an R8 to go with the Aston Martin. The fact that our chief pilot has just received an extra 8% but feels 2% is a good deal for us, I guess he's right because we recently had a year of 0% rise to help the airline out and we should be grateful shouldn't we ? :ugh:

Thing is, when you do the training and look at industry average salaries it is well worth it.
Flybe has often led on to other companies such as Easy and the charter companies who pay reasonably. Due to this Flybe management have always kept the wages low.
However due to no industry movement for three years and the take over of BA Connect there are many people here now who look to a future with a growing company or have no option but to stay!
Management still know that as soon as the Easy door opens again the exodus will start again, so why increase the salary.
The arguemet is if you incease it then more will stay.
Management don't want this because they'd rather have new starters on the lowers salary levels.

Therefore in my opinion we are all banging our heads against a brick wall. It's great that we keep trying and I may be surprised, especially if we get to industrial action, but don't expect a 10% rise or similar. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Choppercopper99: poor show, a retraction of your innuendo is the best way to deal with your mistake.

Bullet190
this is the sort of response we can expect from the general public

It is irrelevant what the public think once the threat of industrial action puts them off booking flights. We don't have to win any PR war, only an economic one. Only when the cost of not dealing with our dispute is greater than the cost of dealing with it will we see any movement from the management. In other words we need to ballot for industrial action.

SR, that's exactly what I have been saying to my colleagues in the crew room and on the flight deck for ages. The management have a responsibility to the shareholders to run the airline for max profits. If they can can get aircrew to fly for less money, they will. They will not give up anything if they can help it, the only way is if they are forced to. Indeed some would say they are negligent in their responsibilities if they did.

Once the cost of a disgruntled workforce outweighs the cost of a decent settlement they will act, it's just business. This is why all these ballots with smoke, mirrors, recommendations, minor concessions etc. are a complete waste of time.

People seem to be forgetting that the cost of living has increased rapidly over the last couple of years. I don't see anything wrong with expecting a pay increase in line with RPI. Afterall that is about what Balpa asked for is it not.

For those low paid Dash FOs particularly any increase in the cost of living will have a relatively large impact on their salaries.

So stop moaning about the moaners. Asking for a 10 or 20% pay rise isn't the same as expecting one. Anyone actually know how negotiating works?!

Anyone think that we should aim for some kind of the negotiated improvement on flight duty pay or getting some kind of sector pay? That way, the more we work, the more we get paid. It would be a bit of a leveller between the fleets where workloads seem to differ and would encourage a good work ethic with regards to sickness etc (line for the company that one!).

Our measly £1.98 per hour means if I go to work tomorrow for my 9 hour shift I get £17 pre tax. If that was more like £30 or £50 I would be a little more motivated to work and my 85 hour roster would take on a slightly better meaning (especially if I comare it to someone else's 20 hour roster on a certain "once a day 9 to 5 fleet"!!!!

Any thoughts? What do Easy get per sector? I know BA is up at like £15 per sector.... Nice!!

Lets be fair. It's the twice a day, smoke me a kipper I'll be home in time for breakfast fleet actually!

Although to be honest most of that fleet have suffered the indignity of the Dash at some point in their Flybe life.

Sector pay - It was bandied about before but nobody would settle on a fair way of doing it.

What is needed is something like the Easy/Jet2 deal. Base sector pay of 'Arbitrary amount' for sectors of 'Arbitrary length'. Sectors over 'Arbitrary length' get 'Arbitrary amount' x 1.2 and sectors under 'Arbitrary length' get 'Arbitrary amount' x 0.8, for example.

So a 4 shorty sector day would get, say £20 x 4 x 0.8 = £64
A longy 2 sector day would get, say £20 x 2 x 1.2 = £48

Seems pretty fair to me and reflects the extra effort of 3 turnarounds as opposed to 1.

Plus a decent rate of flight pay.

Apologies! Was a cheap shot meant totally in jest! Phrase coined by the drivers themselves!! The point was not to segregate or seperate, rather to bring together. What could be fairer than a system of base salaries and then an additional meaningful extra payment, relative to the amount of hours you put in. At present I can't really see a down side. Happy to be corrected thou!

BigJarv - in all seriousness though, have you forwarded your interest in an improvement in FD pay to the CC? The reps I know have given up on viewing PPrune because of all the personal attacks on their integrity. Why not talk to them directly about your aspirations, their mobile numbers and email addresses are on the Balpa forums under CC Contact Details

Roger! Wilco!!

speedrestriction,
have you ever been on strike ? What the public think and what Acas think are both very important. The CC member I spoke to recently also took the time to labor these points. It is very much a PR war !

I'm prepared for industrial action but we all need to understand the implications and be ready for them.

If it becomes a PR battle then maybe they will finally explain Jim's ridiculous salary and share options, the directors 28% bonus and six figure share awards, the managers 10% pay rise/bonus (is this not correct?). What do we get........2%, no shares, no bonus!

How do we accept 5 years of real term pay cuts when there's so much money at the top?

No, thankfully I've never been on strike and by no means do I relish the prospect of standing on a picket line but I'm too long in the tooth and now too short of patience to stay on this merry-go-round of phony negotiation any longer.

I disagree with you about the requirements to win the PR battle. As skeletor alluded to, the management have as much to lose (if not more) in the media spotlight. All the pilot group has to do is force the situation, lets not overcomplicate our task.

SR

Hopefully from what i,ve heard from here...........we are all finally starting to grow a pair. Management for a long time been telling us we cant get ba and easjet salaries because we are a completely different business model. Ok that totally makes sense until you hear that our esteemed leader allegedly makes more money than willie walsh !!!! now that apart from sticking in my throat makes me totally ashamed for him T he company grew very quickly and became something we could have been so proud ie FLYBE but unfortunately it didnt. its treated like a small compant that it was but now has become big . Big company small minded and very greedy management What a complete shame !!!!

cabin crew have now got better t and c's than we have !!!!!! they deserve them . so what happened to us . Unite seem to be doing the job for them !!!!

That's the point of a PR war, If you are standing on a picket line you want the mob of angry passengers to know the whole truth about both sides and not just the stuff that the FlyBe PR department spouts off to the daily mail.
They will use stuff like flying hours (not duty hours), the highest jet training Capt's salary, the total leave we get (not explaining bank holidays) etc etc. It will seem like we are a bunch of overpaid/under-worked ungrateful sods. This is the sort of stuff that makes the not so committed among us go back to work and break the union - hence the importance.
All I'm saying is don't just shout 'STRIKE', know what you are getting into and be prepared for whats to come.