The tube drivers bring or threaten to bring London to its knees several times every year. Whether it's over pay, conditions, redundancies, one of their members being caught playing squash on sick leave, the public hate them, and they don't give a frack. Managers give in to them every time, and that's with public money too. Their starting salary is more than our experienced FOs.

Not saying PR isn't a factor and I'm sure Balpa can play the game, but Flybe won't back just because Guardian readers think we're all living in the staff car park at once our night minicab shift has finished. They'll back down because industrial action will affect bookings and affect the bottom line. Nothing more nothing less.

Look how many people went else where when BA cabin crew threaten to strike. As soon as they announced it, most people I know book with other carriers just on case they get caught up in it.

I think Bullet's hit the nail on the head. We have the moral weight behind us, but effectively communicating our situation to the public can only help our cause. The company spin machine will do everything to paint us as a bunch of prima donnas and compliant journalists such as the moron in the link below will reinforce that.

Simon Calder: The Man Who Pays His Way - Travel, Extras - The Independent

Anyone got a number for Richard Littlejohn? :E

Come on. Look at the date, June 2007, and look at what's happened inbetween times. Colgan Cork and AF744 are some that spring to mind. Cowboys, corporate complacency and fatigue are all killers. Economic crashes as well have also made life difficult. Productivity drives have pushed T's and C's down in most companies in real terms.
The only thing that hasn't changed is the public perception that we're all over paid disloyal lazy idle prima donnas. Tha's what we have to change, and it won't be easy. Good luck to you.

Six Sixty,

It's not about FlyBe backing down to public perception, it's about crews on strike not backing down.
Industrial action is our weapon against the company, PR is one of their weapons in return.
Acas are the middle man, if they are used what they decide must be accepted by both parties. If there decision is that our latest offer was too generous and they feel it should be reduced, we will have to accept their reduced offer ! :eek:
Not going to Acas has the perception of us not wishing to pursue all avenues to resolve the problem.
Please don't take my word for all this...... talk to your CC.

Nubboy, my point exactly! That article is as reflective of the public's perception of airline pilots as it was 4 years ago.

I only have to speak to the people in my local, who naturally assume I'm on a porn star's wage, must drive a flash motor and envy the time I spend in exotic locations with glamourous cabin crew.

You misunderstand me, I never said it want important, just that its not the be all.

All this talk about public perception, comparisons with BA and 'PR battles' is a bit self indulgent. There is no similarity whatsoever.
BA going on strike affects a lot of people. It disrupts holidays, distant families and big business.
Flybe going on strike would push people to the competition, as it did for BA. But unlike BA there are a lot of routes where Flybe competitors offer a similar or better service. I very much doubt there will be any sort of public outcry. The routes with no competition may open up to competitiors, or people will just make alternative arrangements.
This may be a benefit to the strikers though as it will only hit the company where it hurts.

All this talk of going on strike just serves to show what little imagination people have. A united front on a substantive period of 'work to rule' will have just as much of an impact on the company finances (and hence shareholder pressure to act) as a couple of days of strike, and none of the PR disaster that a strike would be. I guarantee the public have no sympathy for us at all.

Work to rule is fairly straightforward;

Check in no earlier than required.
Conduct a full and comprehensive brief.
Insist the CC conduct their pre-flight security & turnaround checks in full accordance with their manuals & numerous NOTACs/notices (for their own protection from disciplinary sanctions, naturally).
Log every defect found in the tech log on each and every sector (with or without engineering support).
Use the APU for cabin conditioning.
Push back only once the CC are seated & fly at 210kts to mimimise the risk of injury to pax & crew from CAT.
Refuse any duty/extension which can be refused.
Call in sick on every occassion you feel ill or tired to ensure flight safety.
Refuse to eat unsatisfactory crew food and purchase a suitable replacement with the company credit card.
Insist on proper meal breaks for the crew.
Exercise commander's discretion to increase minima.
Offload every passenger who infringes the Flybe code of conduct.
Log a formal notice of complaint with the management over each and every unresolved issue encountered during the working day and every lack of response to journey log comments.

You will only be doing what the company has demanded of you as a professional aviator, and all that has changed is you have withdrawn your right to exercise discretion in weighing up the commercial considerations versus safety.

We can do this for as long as it takes, unlike a strike, and there is little opportunity for the company to criticise as we are only doing our job to the highest standard. No real PR opportunity for them, and plenty of scope for us to play the safety card. It will play havoc with the schedule, brass off our passengers very quickly, cost money and put real pressure on the decision makers.

Time for hard ball gentlemen.

Work to rule sounds great, the amount of times a minor defect isn't entered into the tech log until the end of the day, and with another return from airborne due to smoke yesterday the reliability of the q4 is awful. Let's write up every defect as soon as we find it!!!

Someone I spoke to was told by the one of the Balpa cc that they wouldn't countenance a w.t.r as it would potentially unfair to the rest of the crew e.g. non unionised flight deck or the cabin crew if you put something tech down route and have to nightstop, made everyone late, etc etc.

It would seem it's straight to ACAS, or fix bayonets... assuming it's a "no", which is FAR from a foregone conclusion

4% Payrise @ our beloved flag carrier....

Snags in the Tech Log
 

I'm not sure how any rep can say they wouldn't countenance a work to rule. Last time I checked EU Ops and EASA Part 145 you have to raise a tech log entry for an unserviceability. It is EU law.
There has been more than 1 accident in the past based on the glorious phrase "it'll do a trip". I know that snags are carried through until the end of the day but technically it is illegal. I'd like to see your rep get that phrase past the CAA.

:rolleyes: :=

So what does Balpa do when a non-union captain puts something in the tech log and inconveniences a union member? What a load of nonsense.

I'm no longer a member of Balpa but what's to stop me doing my job and working to rule anyway?

Is Balpa seriously suggesting that I don't tech something if it needs it!?

Should I carrying defects as a captain to stop inconveniencing the crew?

Balpa need a serious talking to by you lot.

Carry a defect for the day so you don't disrupt the operation, get caught on a ramp check by the CAA or SOFA if overseas, and see how far the company will back you:ouch:

We had a guy snag the windscreen wipers at CDG ages ago after the company pulled the engineering cover. Put the aircraft AOG, still you can't bee too careful on a fine summers day. You could lose that solid wall to wall CAVOK at any time:ok:

Always check your "standby attitude indicator". Mechanical ones usually wear out within 1500 hrs. and there usually is a MEL relief like "day VMC only" or similar. Especially check after long turns, reducing speed in level flight after high speed descent, etc. Good luck! :E

Problem with work to rule is, we do anyway! The company wouldnt even notice!

We must be working for different companies Burpbot. I constantly see crews going above and beyond the call to keep things going.

Ditto Smilingknifed, on a daily basis.

Unless things have changed drastically in the last few months that is quite possibly the funniest, most misguided post I've seen for a while.

Of course there is the odd obsequious yes man here and there.

Burpbot, remove head from bottom, look around a bit.

Likewise! However we all work to a set of rules, if you deviate from SOP without good reason then you may find yourself grounded hence work to rule is near impossible to achieve. The only thing that would be different is refusing whatever you can refuse. At which point crewing will "fail to agree" and in line with the SA you work the duty and file a dispute. If you refuse discresion then you do so knowing some other poor sod will get shafted! Or the pax get shafted without the option to choose an alternative mode of transport. Hence the company will barely notice the effect!

Dont get me wrong I agree with it in principle but dont see it as an effective persuasion! As the rules will be reinvented via NOTAC to suit the situation.

Likewise I have no wish to strike, I would like to think our leaders are business savvy and would resolve the dispute before it happens, but I guess only time will tell.

Ahhh Spandex if only your mind was as flexible as your name. OPEN YOUR EYES!

I did, I have and I left. Enjoy.

Fair play to you.

I assume all is so good at the new place, you feel the need to expend your moans on here?

Burpot

I don't think he's moaning, not at all. Infact LSM has been very supportive of our cause, which is nice to see.

I was not having a go at spandex, just commenting I hope life is better on the other side and hopefully things on this side of the fence will impove sometime soon.

I'm not moaning, I'm joining in a discussion and supporting my ex colleagues, many of whom are good friends.

The point is that you can be as rigid or as flexible as you like within the rules and SOPs. If everybody followed the SOPs to the letter then the whole operation would slow down. The knock on effect of a slower operation should be apparent to you.

Have you ever beed to CDG when AF are on a go slow?

Well I don't know about anybody else but I've never had a disruption I've been able to refuse. Even the way the company defines disruption is at odds with what the SA is trying to achieve ie a work/life balance. Did anybody else know that crewing's definition of disruption is based around the payment, if no payment is given how can somebody have been disrupted. With 2 hour protection on the day before a duty crewing won't disrupt the next day's duty because it would cost them a payment, but with the 4 hour privilege the SA provides crewing a phone call at 4am on the day of the duty (which I would consider VERY disruptive) costs them nothing

Another thing is the placing of AStby in a scatter-gun way after any early duty, completely circumventing the spirit (now there's a laughable phrase) of the SA, once again provides the company with maximum flexibility and the crew member minimum protection

At the beginning of this mess the Balpa council proposed a "clean slate" and a complete re-write of the SA, the company procrastinated over this wanting mirror rosters to be run to show it's viability but the company demanded that the agreed 2 base study be extended company wide at the last minute, which Balpa had to withdraw from due to lack of man-power

HAHA Spandex, ref CDG yes I have been CDG many times whilst AF is on a go slow, and couldnt tell the difference! :}

Although did notice when the bag slingers were striking things moved much faster than the norm:eek:

Aviation News - Issue 4 - BA agrees new pay deal with pilots -

British Airways pilots get a 4% payrise this year - does that give our position more strength?

Of course it doesn't! Any more than our already low pay levels and poor conditions compared to almost every other operator you would have thought give our argument strength. Stop assuming that any concept of fairness or reasonableness features in this. They don't give a fig; they are machines, and noone is leaving so their pilots will fly their planes come what may. They owe us nothing.

We're at the stage now where our position is only as strong as WE decide to make it. Unreasonableness must be met with the unreasonableness.

how about this for an idea......



5/4, 5/4 roster pattern? Sounds nice. But how would it look on our rosters.

5/4 is nine days. So in a 30 day month it would be...

5/4 5/4 5/4 (27days) 3

next month..

2/4 5/4 5/4 5/1

So in month 1 I'll work 18 days. month 2 i'll work 17 days. My average working day in GLA is 5hrs. In winter we often do morning shifts of 2 sectors plus pointless AS. But I'll work on 5 hrs per duty. eg GLA - BHX x2 or GLA-SOU-FRA-SOU-GLa(closer to 6.5hrs)

Month one flying hours (assuming no standby) 18 x 5 = 90
Month one flying hours (assuming no standby) 17 x 5 = 85

Assuming 4 standbys per month(a generous estimate of my standbys over the last 12 months) thats..

Month 1 14 x 5 = 70
Month 2 13 x 5 = 65

so lets call it an average of 70 per month, assuming I lose a few standbys it would be a bit more. A working year is 10.5 months(six weeks for holiday). So thats 735 per year. I'm currently doing 745 per year, so thats no difference on flying hours for me.

What about days off? It looks like about 12 or 13 days of per month.

So if my maths are right(probably not, this seems to good to be true).
Thats a 5/4 pattern. 735hrs per year and a new total of 150 days off per year. An increase of 42 on the 108 principle.
Give me that and a 3% per year for three years and its a yes vote.

Rostering sorted, Off to eat cheese on toast and rest on my "back of envelope maths" laurels.

And I would come back! :D

If this was a movie, the audience would have walked out a long time ago and asked for their money back.

The film title is "Industrial Action at Flybe?" and here we are on Page 36 of a whole pile of important posturing and rhetoric and absolutely nothing has happened.

There never will be any industrial action at Flybe.

Before you all start shouting at me, I will tell you what taking industrial action actually means.

I was based at JFK at the time and the paychecks did not arrive on time. One crew removed two mainwheels from a 707. Another crew took one of the INS units out of a DC-10 and took it home for safe keeping. A nosewheel went from a DC-8.

Etc. Etc.

The paychecks were flown north from Miami in a Learjet faster than you can ever imagine and the whole problem was resolved in a matter of hours.

Can you imagine this happening in this situation?

No.

You and BALPA will still be talking about this in three year's time and, in the meantime, the management will be laughing all the way to the bank.

But that is exactly my point. Not one of you is prepared to stand up and be counted and not one of you is ever going to do anything radical that will really bother the management.

(Otherwise known as the "visiting management" in Flybe who would rapidly flee at the first sign of really serious trouble and then go on to ruin another airline.)

Stop talking and DO something!

Otherwise, close this very boring thread!

Believe you me, the International Brotherhood of the Teamsters did not muck about in the playground but they did get things done quickly.

Please enjoy your next ten years of gentle negotiating.

I used to meet your cohorts in the simulator at Hatfield and Woodford many years ago and it seems to me that absolutely nothing has got any better.

I have nothing further to say on the subject.

Good luck with your pointless negotiations.

[QUOTE]Believe you me, the International Brotherhood of the Teamsters did not muck about in the playground but they did get things done quickly./QUOTE]

Killing Jimmy Hoffa for instance. Any other tricks BALPA should copy?

Who mentioned pointless again? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure that you understand what you mean. Pointless negotiations would be negotiating without a point. The point of these negotiations is an improvement in pay and QOL. So, therefore, your statement is wrong.

What you meant to say was ineffective negotiations, but you'd still be wrong, again. So far they haven't been very effective but they have had an effect.

The CC just need to get a bit more aggro.

Dissing JW is easy on here, but I wouldn't do it to his face. He's had a very long career in this business and has seen everything, twice.

I agree with him. As Dastardly said - "Mutley, do something"

My union stuck it's chin out last year and management crumbled. It can work if the tactics are thought through.

As Flybe are head to head with Ezy on a number of roots, where margins are thin, the last thing they'd want is a stoppage that allows the competitor an advantage. Think on.

If the ballot comes back as a NO I think BALPA should start a scheme where each base can have an "Industrial Action Champion".

This champion could organise industrial action in their base and promote and give pep talks to their co workers.

Would it also be possible to provide them with special lanyards so they could be easily identified.