BUT

The majority of the workforce got nothing.

Coffin Corner,

The original share issue, I believe, was intended to reward the employees of Jersey European Airways at the time for their loyalty and hard work over a period of years - you didn't get it just because you happened to work for them on the day the share certificates were issued.

It is the loyalty part which meant that if you left the company, as I did, that you had to return the certificate. I also recall that there were restrictions as to how any shares received at the eventual flotation could be disposed of, but I no longer have the details - one of your more senior colleagues might be able to tell you more.

The majority of the work force didn't get anything because the majority of the work force haven't/hadn't worked there long enough to be entitled to them. If that somehow seems unfair maybe balpa should take it up.

excrab

I am not bemoaning the fact that I have no shares, my response to Whispering Giant was so because RHINO had asked how many shares the workforce received during the float. WG's response, although dated, didn't state that the majority of the workforce received no shares. I didn't want RHINO to think the majority did, because we didn't.

I'd be surprised if much more than a quarter of the workforce have shares in fact.

Initially about 1400 Jersey European staff were granted shares by the late Jack Walker on 31 May 2005.

Those eligible were to have had a minimum of 3 years service on that date.

thanks for that, quite enlightening!

It seems to me if your directors were bothered about what you think they would have issued (or allowed you to buy at an advantageous price) all employees with shares. Ensuring that you were ALL tied into the businesses future. Given they have not leads me to think they reckon you guys (and girls) have nowt in your trousers as far as improving your T and C's.

good luck!

As much as I'd like to buy shares, as a year 4 F/O my salary is stretched enough with food, rent and loan payments.

Thanks for the offer though Uncle Jim :mad:

Based on BALPA's press release this morning, the make or break meetings between management and themselves are imminent.

It's been impressive to watch the crews rallying behind BALPA on this one, and a few i have spoken to have joined the union in order to make their point.

Watch this space.

RHINO, I think you hit the nail on the head. Flybe completely neglected to offer employees the opportunity to buy shares at the option price.....another kick in the balls, indicative of management's contempt for their workforce given the current situation. It would have cost them next to nothing and may have improved moral at a time when it's desperately needed.

Two items from the prospectus of relevance
 

Page 15: Risk relating to the business

"The Group is dependent on good industrial relations

Many of the Group’s employees are represented by trade unions and the Group has voluntary recognition agreements in place with BALPA in respect of its pilots, UNITE in respect of its cabin crew and Prospect in respect of its engineers. The Group undertakes collective bargaining with such unions on a financial yearly basis. While agreements have been reached with UNITE and Prospect in respect of the 2010/11 Financial Year, the Group is currently in discussion with BALPA (under the dispute resolution process agreed in Flybe’s voluntary recognition agreement with BALPA) in relation to the 2010/11 Financial Year pay settlement and certain scheduling issues. Any breakdown in the bargaining process with BALPA (or with UNITE or Prospect generally) could result in the Group being unable to continue to negotiate wages and salaries on terms that support it offering services at competitive prices, or could lead to strikes or other industrial action (or the threat of strikes or industrial action) which could damage the Group’s reputation or cause passengers to book with the Group’s competitors. A breakdown in the relationship with employee representative bodies, or the employees themselves, could lead to industrial action being taken which could in turn have a material adverse effect on the Group’s business, results of operations, growth prospects and/or financial condition."


Page 44. A "Key element" of strategy
"the group will continue to focus on cost reductions across all aspects of the Flybe business with the aim of delivering the lowest unit cost base amongst European regional airlines"

Enough said!

Best of luck in getting a fair result,

Two more from the prospectus
 

Two more from the prospectus

Page 16 (Risk)

In addition, pilots are from time to time in short supply in the European airline industry and the Group may have to expend significant amounts of time in recruiting and training them. There has historically been a trend in the industry for senior pilots in short haul airlines (such as the Group) to leave in order to join airlines with longer haul routes, particularly when the global economy is strong and there is high demand for experienced pilots to fly on international routes. Although in the last few years the Group has maintained a relatively high retention rate in respect of pilots, this may change when the economy improves. ......Any significant shortage of highly trained or specialised employees could have a material adverse effect on the Group’s business, results of operations, growth prospects and/or financial condition.

Page 62; employee Incentivisation

Flybe recognises the importance of its people to the success of the Group. Consequently, the Group’s remuneration policy is designed to be market competitive in order to motivate and retain talented executives, align the reward strategy with delivery of the business strategy, incentivise and reward sustainable profit growth and the creation of long-term value, and align employee behaviours with the interests of shareholders.

Ummm???

Consequently, the Group’s remuneration policy is designed to be market competitive in order to motivate and retain talented executives

Are flight crew executives or bottom feeding scum?

Interestingly an airline can operate without members of one group but not the other..

Somebody mentioned earlier about the float possibly being pulled. I have know doubt it was on a knife edge. Any talk of industrial action in the press would have seen the float pulled. It probably explains why it was one of the most low key floats of the year. What an opportunity missed....

It's back to the bottom of the tank....

Page 44. A "Key element" of strategy
"the group will continue to focus on cost reductions across all aspects of the Flybe business with the aim of delivering the lowest unit cost base amongst European regional airlines"

Ok... am I the only person out there who finds this paragraph actually quite worrying. As if it's not enough that the average salary in the company (excluding directors and their 28% payrise) has fallen by a couple of percent, this makes it appear that this is one of their key points. They don't want to pay us above the inflation rate, in order so it will cost them less.

I understand that key talks are going on today - I hope that the result is a fair one to all pilots out there - I've had enough of being treated in the way that the company have done. It's a wonder that half the people turn up to work with the levels of morale in the crewrooms.

Jims £1000000 interest free loan just totally takes the p155 out us all. It's a shame that the directors are just looking after themselves in this issue... no regard for us who have been making the money for the company.

And this flight efficiency. I will bloody well only do it when the company give me a fair payrise. Even if it means getting in 30 minutes early on each sector. I'm not funding any more of Jims little ventures willingly.

Rant over.
Beer...

Is it not unlawful for a company to make a loan to a director in order to allow him/her to buy shares in the company? It used to be, I'm sure.

correction, the loan was used to the ceo buy a house in london

Perhaps they are waiting for industrial action, then when the share price falls they can buy shares with their loans:E

FANS
 

Fans retort is brutal, but sadly correct. And when you guys go all e-jet,(Q400 replacement, as well as expansion over the next 4-5yrs), the salaries will not remotely reflect industry standard.

What's your latest on the single-salary pay scale? Are the company still trying to push that little GEM through?

T:suspect:

More from the prospectus:


7.4 It is intended that the following awards over Ordinary Shares be granted to Directors and Senior Management on Admission or within six weeks thereafter pursuant to the PSP:




Maximum value of



Ordinary Shares


under award (by


reference to the


Name Offer Price) Earliest Vesting Date


Jim French . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £500,000 Third anniversary of award date


Mark Chown . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £95,000 Third anniversary of award date


Andrew Knuckey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £250,000 Third anniversary of award date


Mike Rutter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £250,000 Third anniversary of award date


Andrew Strong . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £250,000 Third anniversary of award date


Chris Simpson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £60,000 Third anniversary of award date


Mark Elkins . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £104,000 Third anniversary of award date


Simon Charles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £104,000 Third anniversary of award date

So, has anyone 'heard' what the pay deal is?! It's been provisionally agreed but not going to ballot until mid/end of Jan!

Nothin at all. If they have agreed anything meagre like 2% per year for a 3 year deal then it's getting a big fat no from me. It is going to have to be pretty spectacular to tie us in for 3 years. I really dont understand why we have to wait to be told.

I agree... and all others I have flown with in the last week feel the same too.
We'll see.

Would the first year of a 3 year pay deal already have lapsed?

The deal we are striking now is expected to back date to April 2010, so the first anniversary is already looming.

I like the concept of a 3 year deal, we all know where we stand and it gives both sides time to breath before starting it all again when the time comes to renew.

Most likely lapsed yes. A 3 year deal would be good, but it depends on the content as I said above. If it is for a meagre amount of something like 2% then we have undernegotiated considering we are emerging from a recession and going into good times.

The other thing about having it backdated (and yes, we should have it backdated) is that many F/Os at the bottom end of the scale will lose out tax wise should they get a lump sum. Doesn't matter to captains as they already pay 40%.

I can't think how the lump sum arriving in a different tax year would affect anyone other those near the higher rate threshold?
I assume that anyone under £40k ish pa would still only pay BR? (unless of course BALPA manage to get us the 28% we deserve like the directors! We can but dream!)

I also feel that the duty pay should be tackled... put up to £2.50 or more... not the same meagre 2-6% = £1.99 ish? PAH!
now it's being taxed, earnings are LESS than 2 years ago!

Duty pay hasn't been changed for years and years I understand. It wasn't taxed previously either. If it is supposed to be for incidental sustenance during a flying day then it is due a hefty increase if you consider what a sandwich / drink costs compared to several years ago.

Also the crew food problem is now fixed with the imminent introduction of a pot noodle. Okay, some may say it's a step in the right direction as now you can get some hot food on the dash, but for me I think I may already be getting enough MSG and e-numbers. Just strikes of minimum effort.

Sad to see that you guys are suffering from the same indignities as we are in EZY. As you will be aware EZY has been a public shareholder company for some time and for us mere mortals this has meant a year on year devaluation of our renumeration and conditions. As sure as day follows night you will be reminded almost daily of the need to cut costs and make savings in every department in order to maintain a competitive edge. At the same time your mid and top end managers will be rewarded with ever increasing bonuses and share packages, some of obscene proportions, for making these savings and thus increasing shareholder value. The AMB, who award themselves even bigger packages, then tend, not surprisingly, to "move on to new challenges" at an alarmingly high rate only to be followed by a replacement with a raft of new ideas. The onslaught is relentless for us so I would suggest that you guys dig your heels in and don't allow the gold diggers to get an early foot hold. Do your management and AMB eat pot noodles ?

Salsaboy.

That would be correct if we got paid annually but we don't. Your tax is worked out monthly pro rata for the year, i.e. Whatever you get paid in the month is multiplied by 12, you then pay tax accordingly.
If your gross for January is £2500, this is multiplied by 12 (£30k) so it keeps you under the higher rate (of £36k I think it is now).
If you earn £3500 in the month this will equate to £42000 in the year, so £6k over the top end. £36,000 divided by 12 is obviously £3,000. So £500 of your monthy wage will be taxed at 40%.
If you added a £1500 backdate to your monthly wage then a fair chunk of it will be taxed at 40%. Because you should have received the payrise in small portions per month (keeping it under the top end rate) if you are earning anywhere near £3,000 per month now then all of the backdated pay will be taxed at 40%. That equates to a few hundred pounds out of pocket.

Unless of course, the taxman will be informed it is backdated pay and tax it as it should have been taxed originally. I doubt it though.

Simple old payroll systems would calculate it that way yes, but these days it should be simple enough to calculate it at source as a backdated annual increment as it is... However, if it is done incorrectly (as we can expect!) then we can sort it directly with the inland revenue, resulting in a cheque for the overpayment(which won't be a huge amount) but worst case with an adjusted tax code for the subsequent year... Far from ideal but we shouldn't end up out of pocket.

Salsaboy.

Old pay system or not, if the inland revenue sees this payment as a pure lump sum then you will be overtaxed. I am not sure, or up to speed enough with the system to know if the tax man is even allowed to differentiate between back dated pay and a lump sum.

... if I am overtaxed I will claim it back...

Anyway...

Anyone heard what the deal MIGHT be?!

Its not 5 or 6%, which in itself is far less than it should be (circa 15% year 1 then another 5% every year for 5 years and we may just be on par).

Seemingly the big focus of discussion was on the lates to earlies issue. Frankly, in my opinion, this should very much have been a second discussion and probably concerns less the 10% of the pilot workforce, the other 90% would rather get paid properly first for the way we work now surely i.e like our friends in other airlines, and deal with the shift roster pattern later.

If the talk is of a 3 year deal then we are pi55ing in the wind with a 6% deal as this will be out dated and below the cost of living in 6 months anyway.

A post on 'flyingbe' indicates that the interest rates are forecast to rise to 8% soon. I hope he's wrong because Im screwed on this meagre salary.

Virga - agree with you about pay: 15% year 1 and 5% subsequently would be about right to start raising pay from it's currently dismal levels towards something approaching industry norms.
However lifestyle is important too;though I think that the total number of days off - we get significantly less than most others, and the 108 day off rule is why we get so many pointless make-work standbys - is more important than lates to earlies.
Unless the agreement makes substantial progress towards addressing the above aspirations I'll vote against it when we ballot, and judging by the results of the pole on the flyingbee web site so will others.
　
Time for the company to stop taking the piss.
Time to stand up, instead of keeping bending over and taking it.
Time to strike.

Chaps, I've heard on the grapevine that your offer will be weighted more towards lifesyle improvement (that'll make a change then) than pay rise. I've heard that the offer won't be far away from the original 2%.

What on earth are Balpa asking for? 5% and what? Or lifestyle improvement and what? Or maybe they're only negotiating for one!

Should they not be asking for implementation of Bluesky rostering AND a decent - NOT 5% - payrise? As Virga said a minimum of 15% should be awarded but at the expense of what? I hope nothing.

Ok, go on strike, or even just threaten it, but it seems that all you're going to get is one and not the other.

I hope, for all your sakes, that you get both. Don't let them screw you over again.

It needs to be no less than 5% with a serious implementation of the Bluesky SA. Otherwise a big fat No from me with a hope of industrial action to make the point clear.

No need to strike, just working to rule will bring the airline to its knees

It doesn't matter whether you strike or work to rule as both are management 'attention getters'

Lets be realists, Flybe pilots have long been thought of by Exeter as an endless source of good will who lack the stomach it takes to strike.

There are two problems at hand here (actually loads but these two are on my mind)...

1 The problem of WHO works for Flybe and..
2 Who's job is it to defend the rights of Flybe pilots and co-ordinate strike action / 'work to rule' if necessary

Problem 1 Broadly speaking there are 3 types of Flybe pilot. Starters, enders and those who live close to a regional base and want a quiet life. Starters are just happy for a job, previously at flight school they look out at the world and see a lot of people who'd like to be in their shoes, they also know that this is the first stepping stone to that eventual A380 LHS (ok bit of a hyperbole but you get the idea) - net result is that UNDERSTANDABLY this fraternity of Flybe pilot just want to keep their head down, wait for sunnier times and thus plot their escape. Net result don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr.

Enders - We all know them, ex BA, Cathay etc who most likely retired at 55 and looked for a cushy direct entry LHS somewhere in Blighty. They are already living off their company pension and are looking to spend 5 years or so putting most of their earnings into another pension scheme to make life after 60/65 just that bit sweeter - cant blame them, I'd do it myself. They lie low, they join in the flight deck 'management slaggin' banter but again don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr - they're already contemplating the shade of leather upholstery aboard their 50ft Sunseeker in 5/4/3/2/1 years time.

And so to the last group - the ladies and gents who live close to EXT, SOU, IOM, JER, GUR, NCL, INV etc who arent fussed by ending up in a legacy carrier or wide body charter operation - just want to do a days toil on the dash, drive only 20 minutes to work and very much like the small base feel where everybody knows everyone - cool, I've no problem with that. But again, if I were in an organisation where I intended to spend a decent portion of if not all of my career I probably wouldn't be the first person to stick my head above the parapet and yell 'Oi Jimbo, anyone ever tell you you're a class A mug and I say we all strike - by the way see you at the christmas knees up down the Frog and Duck.' So again - don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr.

So to problem 2 - if no one group is gonna step forward, who's job is it to negotiate until the 11th hour and then initiate industrial action (if voted to do so)? Is that BALPA I hear someone say. Too bloody right - trouble is they're more than happy to take a percentage of all our pay (I don't work for Flybe btw) but also happy for all of you to take it up the backside when it comes time to share the wealth now that Flybe has finally made good on its stock market aspirations. I compare BALPA in this particular matter to Neville Chamberlain - spineless with an eagerness to placate those who need to be brought to task.

BTW - I hope the armchair critics among you will recognise that I have not proposed an answer to the troubles at Flybe. Truth is I dont know what to do. But I would say that withdrawing your BALPA subs would certainly be worth considering. They after all are meant to be the ones who put up with all the !!!!! so you dont have to - trouble is so far they've done a lot of talking but basically bugger all.

BALPA are the solution, not the problem
 

CB I do think there is some merit in your analysis above and there are some who want to keep their heads down for sure. However I really do think the worm has finally turned with the release of the information showing that:

Our CEO earns more than Willie Walsh!!
JF has been lent £1 million interest free and with no repayment date to buy a Knightsbridge apartment
The Directors seem to have awarded themselves bonuses of £250 000 to £500 000 each as a pat on the back for achieving flotation.
Directors pay increased 28% last year

In addition due to the recession more flight crew than ever have had to stay with Flybe so there are a whole load of experienced FO's with little chance of command/progression who want to see a big improvement in T's and C's - this bunch never expected to still be here and are getting more disillusioned by the day. There's also a bunch of 30's 40's Captains raising families and struggling and wondering why they're on £50-£60k and their mate in Easyjet is on £110k. These two groups make up a large percentage of the pilot community and they never existed in such numbers before. Both need more disposable income and more time off. Both are determined to get it and if a strike is necessary so be it...

The company froze pay last year and offered 2% rise this year to a workforce who work more days than any other UK airline for about 70% of other airline's pay. The old argument that the company used that they are a little struggling airline who couldn't afford to pay people properly simply won't wash anymore with the news that there's cash sloshing around so readily at the top.

Clearly the float was excellent news for the Directors, but I actually think it's proved even better news for the workers who now have the information they need to win the argument...

People are extremely angry here and know for sure now they have actually been exploited in recent years on pay and rostering. There will be a industrial action unless serious progress is made on pay and lifestyle this time - there is a very high level of bitterness in the crewrooms every day directed against management.

Cancelling BALPA subs won't help at all, Only BALPA can negotiate with management properly, only BALPA can ballot for industrial action, only BALPA cares about improving worker conditions here - if you don't back them now then don't moan next time you get shafted by Exeter...

DP ...Well said I couldn't agree more.

Absolutely...

If we want to show strength as a group we need as many as possible to JOIN NOW... pay your subs... see how we get on... if you're not happy with what we get, THEN leave... for the sake of 2 or 3 months membership it might make the difference... if the company see that it's EVERY pilot (or as close to that as possible) then we're more likely to get somewhere.

Encourage as many non-members to join. If you leave now then we all get screwed again!