And just like the Rapture...

Tuesday vanished without an earth shattering change.

It will come through the second I post this though!

Excitement turning into annoyance!!!

Ditto

It's not funny now, Tuesday lunchtime. Maybe they meant Tuesday lunchtime next week :ugh:

Or next year???:*

Is it a case of no matter how much polish is used it still doesn't shine.

Just received an email from Balpa!!! Announcing dates for member meetings, and that the offer will be despatched asap!!! Feels like something fishy is going on.:ooh:

I got that too... and a note telling me to be in the BHX meeting tomorrow. I don't normally consider going to work on days off, but I think I might just go along and see what they have to say about it.

I'm not really interested in the meetings, I just want the latest offer they promised us. 8 days tomorrow, it must be something monumental to take that long. :rolleyes:

According to unofficial sources, a 364/1 fixed roster and a 12.5% incremental rise over 3 years entirely in M&S vouchers and thankyou notes.

This just in:

Nothing
;-)

flyingcamel

Love it :ok:

They're being very generous with that single day aren't they:}.

I.m beginning to feel like I'm being manipulatedand it's beginning to pee me off! I just hope it doesn't backfire and a reasonable offer gets rejected for the wrong reasons. Surely everyone has learned that treating us like idiots who can't think for ourselves has not proven a ace strategy so far. Just the facts please.

Do any of you, or anybody you know, think that Jim will have come over all soft and given you a decent offer? Both pay and T&C's? Or one or the other?

Serious question.

The perpetual BS of "we really really really want to improve the rostering and lates to earlies we really do honestly". Well, do it then. It's not hard. Blue Skies or whatever it was/is called. Done.

NOPE, they do NOT want to improve it at all. As evidenced in JF's letter.

The "information gathering" exercise by French and Strong was for their benefit only. They will have developed an offer that will appear to be better but won't be.

Flybe has money, a lot of it too. They don't want you to have it. Frenchy and cronies want to keep it all for themselves.

DO NOT LET THEM.

First post 16th August 2010, 53 pages and counting...

In the time this thread has been running, my employer has installed BALPA representation from nothing and we've got our payrise for 2010 (backdated) and 2011 agreed, payed and spent!

Whilst appreciating the 'big picture' is not given here, but man alive somebody grow some and sort this....

New offer available for balpa member's viewing. Check your emails...

Highlights:
SFO's get £3k payrise. (after completing PCLA)
60 hour weekend.
Contactable days (SDD's) introduced instead of so many pointless standbys.

Just read latest offer which came through this morning.

2% 2010/2011 back dated, 5.2% pay rise for 2011/2012, RPI + .5% for 2012/2013

Many improvements in the SA, some listed by Iakovos.

It will be a YES :ok: from me.

Nicely timed JB007 :yuk:

Anyone who thinks that Jim's little visits/chats had anything to do with this is in need of a brain transplant ! The only thing they respect is force, a pilot workforce ready to strike is just that.

Well done BALPA and the CC.

So, it's still a miserly pay rise (only just in real terms) and a bit of tinkering with the SA, which only benefits a 2 day weekend. Anything longer, and it's the same deal as now - finish late, start early.

No from me. Again.

And goodbye BALPA.

cant complain, well done to Balpa and the CC, looks like I need to get a PCLA done asap.

And that sums up the point.

The offer is designed to get a 51% vote, so the FO's with 3 stripes get £2500 extra p.a.

They will of course have to wait for their PCLAs, and when they get them they'll get LHS quickly, so the £2500 extra will never be seen!!

Well done JB007 for your post. :=

Yes from me. Well done BALPA and the CC.

Yes from me. It's a step in the right direction, but I emphasise only a step! They have to back this up with a long term commitment to improvement and not allow another few years of stagnation.

I'm tempted to vote yes to it, and I thank the CC for standing firm and squeezing some blood out a stone.

I don't see the SFO improvements as trying to scrape a 51% yes vote. It actually gives bums like me in the RHS a clearer path and possible career structure again, with something approaching proper renumeration for the responsibility and skills. It is only a good offer though IF - and it's a big IF - people are actually given PCLAs when they are ready and not left to rot. This has to happen.

Scheduling is an improvement, and we need to push for more and more through this new committee now.

I fully agree - this is a step in the right direction, but the rhetoric of now all being friends MUST be backed up with continued, solid and real improvements over the coming years as the airline grows.

It should never have got this far. And if Jim is genuine about things having to be done differently in the future, he should get the middle management who continuously lied about there being no money, maninpulated figures to try to pull the wool over our eyes and insult our intelligence,and threatened redundancies and base closures to try to get us to shift and sack them on the spot.

Otto,

Have you really read the agreement, or are you just mouthing off for the sake of it?

There are some real improvements, particularly in the setting up of the JSMC, which should stop all of the different interpretations of a few words here and there. The SDD's are an improvement and a 64 hour weekend (minimum 60) is better, as people have said it's a step in the right direction. As for SFO's that's great for them, a real recognition of their achievement.

But.... I suppose you wouldn't be happy if you were paid twice as much for half the work... would you? :rolleyes:

It's a step in the right direction and one that I am happy with.

It's not everything we wanted, but equally, it successfully shows how things have progressed.

I equally think that 2 big thanks yous for getting this offer out should be:

1/ to the BALPA members and pilots who stood up to the company despite the intimidation and general malaise from certain elements of the pilot populations.

2/ To the CC for doing a good job in negotiating what they have done.

As I said it's not perfect at all, but it is a step in the right direction. I want to see how crewing intend to follow this up - and whether they will play ball.

No thanks to:

1/ Andrew Strong.
2/ PBMs.

Well done BALPA. It's not 100% perfect but I think under the current situation it is going to be the best we will get. I like the idea of 64hr weekends, 60hrs minimum and senior FO's getting an extra £3000. It shows a little more towards a career with flybe. Pay rise is acceptable, but the most encouraging is BALPA's goal to get the salaries towards other airlines.

Good work, it was worth holding out for. We could go for more, but I would like my pay and lifestyle changed this year!

Many thanks

The SFO part worries me, PCLA should have nothing to do with it as this process is often difficult and murky. It should be done on hours. Most FOs go directly from PCLA to a command. This isn't a real airline where you can spend many years in the RHS. I'm voting yes but still leaving at earliest convinience.

I imagine lots of FOs bidding for a jet command at somewhere like EXT just to get the SFO status. It's flawed.

Yes from me too, OT - I think leaving BALPA is very bad idea, if it wasn't for them we'd have got close to diddly squat. Well done to the CC. Oh and this pay deal only runs for another year, then it's back to the table again...

Better start negotiations now then!

It's good enough for me. We were never going to get it all, but there is some serious progress here. Well done to the cc, you've redeemed yourselves for the second offer "strong recommendation" calamity and then some. Shame on the co for making it drag this long with all the lies, half truths and spin. Hopefully they'll bear in mind our newly developed backbone when certain individuals consider treating us like simpletons again. Agreed some people's credibility has been seriously damaged by the way they handled this, and they may have a bit of an uphill struggle before the pilots trust them again.

Maybe one suggestion for future negotiations; if we want 6%, maybe we go in asking for 15%.....!

HidekiTojo

The PCLA is just that, a "Pre-Command Line Assessment", it assesses your ability to be a Captain. If you jump through all the hoops on the line and in the sim, and are assessed to be "a Captain in waiting" then why not get paid a bit extra for being that. It's not a passport to being a Captain straight away, I know senior FO's of several years standing who just haven't bid for the right place at the right time, but they're very experienced, but hitherto paid just £500 more than other FO's. IMHO the SFO scale is welcome.

Don't forget you can start the process to SFO as soon as you've got the required hours (total and in Flybe) which I can't quote but are in the company manuals.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, it just doesn't work that way!

On another point, are we going to know whether we're rostered as Core standby duties, or standby duties possibly subject to SDD?

There are plenty of people thanking the CC for their hard work, I am sure that they did work hard and I respect their willingness to give spare time to do this. However, did they work smart? Not in my opinion, right to the last minute they still did not have a clear idea what they were asking the company for, in terms of percentage rise and sched improvements and as usual were trying to fight on too many fronts rather than pick a specific issue and get that resolved.
It actually took Jim F and Andrew S coming around to the crew rooms talking to people directly to find out what was needed and then a meeting with Jim M from grown up Balpa to sort this mess out and come up with a realistic offer, which gets my vote anyway.
Of course I am grateful that Balpa stood thier ground on the most part and it is thanks to that..that we now have this improved offer but do not forget the last offer was strongly recommened by the CC.
Now the CC need to get a plan in place for the next negotiations, a set of clear and simple improvements to put to the company and do not try to fight on too many fronts!!

Can't argue worth any of that cutoff, though to be fair we've got a relatively young and until now inexperienced cc and I'm sure they will be the first to admit they've learned loads in the last 6 months which is all skills in the bank to be spent on our behalf next time. And no I'm not on the cc.

AS will have learned stuff too, hopefully that the Apprentice is a good tv show but not a serious management toolkit.

So, effectively, apart from an RPI increase (not a pay rise at all, and do not forget all the years of RPI increasing without any pay rise whatsoever - how far behind have salaries fallen in the last decade plus? I'll tell you, more than you have "gained" today) the essence of this new improved offer is what?

An extra six hours when you have two days off.

How about we just roster you all 6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3? No gain.

Oh, wait. You will still be rostered just as many standbys as you are now although you may lose a few of these the day before. Why not use available days? You can't have that because you'll have more than the golden 108 days off per year. By the way my nominated contact period for a SDD would be 2100 - 0000Z...ha!

It's not bad but it could be a LOT better.

I hope you all stick it out even more. There is more to be had and you still won't break the bank.

Oh God, another one.

No profile details Lord Spandex Masher, so I wonder if you work for Flybe or you're just a pretender. If you don't work for Flybe then go away, if you do, then find another job that has better T's & C's, (if you can). If the latter applies then shut up, moron!

To be fair to LSM he has been on our side from the word go.

LSM, why don't you run for the cc?

Dear Snigs, who's rattled your cage then?

If you read back a few pages you will see that I used to work for Flybe, I assume that you can read.

Not that my employ has any relevance to this debate but I have done exactly as you suggested and am more than happy, thank you.

Either way I won't be going away or shutting up...Moron.

I still maintain an interest in Flybe. I made many friends at Flybe in my nearly 15 years flying for them and I'm still in touch with them all.

So, mutter and grumble all you like. Accept the first decent offer to come your way for years and be happy with your lot. Hopefully the rest of the intelligent people at Flybe won't rest on their laurels until they get what is owed to them. I'm sure that you will happily benefit from their efforts?

Pizzaro, hope that answers your question. I would if I could.

By the way Snigs, petulant name calling really is unbecoming a knight in shining armour yet you have the gall to call me a pretender.

Many have had run ins with lord spandex! He has many sides and a slightly pompous and occasionally smug tone from the sidelines!!!

I think 11% over 2 years is not too far off the mark when compared to others in the industry. The removal of smoke and mirrors in the offer (read bull s**t) and what appears to finally be some genuine recognition and resolution of gripes from the top man is very encouraging. Still won't encourage most to stay I think but will make things better for those in transit and those that do stay. On the whole... Yes!

Its a yes from me!