PoC

You make an excellent post but I am afraid that if you were trying to persuade Ray Webster then you will fail. He is bigoted and ignorant.

I guess that he is slinging mud at the wall hoping that some of it will stick trying to create the self fulfilling prophecy.

He has no idea about our future fleet plan or expansion plan. He has no idea of our business model, or the success of the cost saving initiatives. He has no idea of the load factors and associated yields that we are currently enjoying that the LoCos can only be envious of. He has now idea how well our new routes are selling.

He comes from the MOL and Stelios mould of the idea of success is not to just compete but to actually want to see the destruction of any competition and the associated loss of jobs and misery it causes. An abhorrent and immoral way of conducting business.

This can be evidenced by the Schadenfreud that both airlines enjoy by trumpeting other's misery with slogans down the side of their aeroplanes.

Have FR yet painted "The Baby is Dead" or some such other hideous slogan down their fuselage yet?

I am sure that Easy used to have a Bye Bye BA slogan down the side and often had anti Go slogans down the side.

And I also remember Stelios being interviewed saying that his aim was to see BA have to pull out of the short haul market completely.

Remember the newspaper ads naming the Companies that flew their staff with BA and not EZY trying to entice the shareholders of those Companies to sell up their shares claiming that the Companies were throwing money down the drain?

I am not slinging mud at all, I have not said anything about anybody else's financial situation or prospects for the future.

If you think that this slagging match is childish then your post only goes to exacerbate it!! :ugh:

Fmgc
 

I dont think that FR have painted a slogan about the demise of Baby. And I think I can speak for most FR pilots that the majority of us hope that they dont.

Maybe our management take pleasure in 140 pilots being out of work.

I certainly dont.

FR Schadenfreude
 

You can't be serious flaps 40!

At various times FR have painted the following on their aircraft:

"Bye Bye Easyjet"
"Arrividerci Alitalia"
"Bye Bye Air Berlin"
"Auf Wiedersehen Lufthansa"
"Bye Bye SkyEurope"

Not a lot of moral high ground to be had from FR pilots when a lot of you have had these on the side of your aircraft over the last 4-5 years.

The same goes back to you one post. Easy and Ryan are the only airlines to have acted in this way.

Big fat gypsy airlines anyone?

tinytom
 

FR and EZY pilots had naff all to do with whats written on the side of aeroplanes.


Do you honestly think I liked or agreed with the awful sentiment portrayed with those slogans on the side of the aircraft when I was at FR?

Answer is no you egotistical birk. Funny how I left FR isnt it.

antonov...don't be a pillock and read the posts.

Of course the pilots don't have a say in what gets written on the side of the aircraft but I'm sure they're not blind to what's written there either and there is no moral ground to be had for either FR or U2 pilots.

I tried to ignore it. To say it made me angry to see those slogans about the plight of fellow aviators would be putting it mildly.

And its berk, not birk, you berk.

I dont mean to be rude, BUT i think most people myself included wouldn't waste any effort caring about anything to do with ryanair or easy jet! I have no wish to join either hence reading the thread about monarch recruitment!

If you want to rant about how cancerous companies are better then please do everyone a favour and start the "easy/Ryanair will rule the world thread" and let those interested find out more about MONARCH!!!!

Thank you.

This thread is starting to meander, and this morality discussion is an oxbow lake. Dicky Branson ressurected the concept of "shock" advertising with his boat, balloon and fibreglass airplane adventures years ago. The "shock" element was in his personal exploits, but they were always accompanied by the word Virgin in 12 foot high letters in the background, and good luck to him. As I recall, he also launched the concept of political slogan graffiti on the fuselage. "No way BA/AA" etc. Others then copied the concept with topics such as the abolition of duty free, etc. The lo-co's didn't miss a trick either and used the aircraft as billboards for their own marketing news, telephone numbers, as well as billboards for third party advertising. I remember seeing whole aircraft painted up in the colours of Hertz, Jaguar etc. Some of the perhaps more tasteless slogans of triumph, simply emulated some of the more tasteless slogans that were being orated by the "Shock Jock" MD's of one or two companies. Whether they believed what they said, I have no idea, but it achieved a result. That result I already alluded to in my previous post, aggressive marketing by way of free publicity!

Whole TV series were devoted to some of these fast expanding companies. Aggressive marketing formed the core element of many of these programmes. It often mattered little if the emotions being aroused in the viewing audience were anger, loathing, hate or love, just so long as it did arouse an emotion that would instill the name of the company in the wider public psyche. Even Monarch dipped their toe in this particular pond.

Pilots had no real input in this marketing concept, and the morality, tastefulness or otherwise of it, is irreleant to this particular discussion. Pilots I know in other companies work within the confines set by their own managements. We all work to put food on the table, a roof over our families heads and have enough left over to buy jam and save for the future! It is therefore important that we are satisfied we have made the right choices in life.

I am happy that I made a right choice many years ago. I am happy with what I know now. I am happy to advise my own family to follow in my footsteps. I am happy to advise others to follow the same path. When I speak to other pilots, it becomes clear that there are certain companies that provide a lifestyle they enjoy. That lifestyle isn't simply money although money is an important element. It involves their working profiles, their environment, and how they interact within their own workplaces. Putting competitive banter aside, it is usually clear who the good employers are, and who the bad employers are.

A company is made up of the sum total of its parts. One of those parts (and an important one) are the employees. Shock Jock policies might have a positive marketing impact with your customer base, but I believe they have completely the opposite effect with your employees. If those employees are not on your side, then you might as well be puttting bad fuel in the aircraft. You can rule by fear when you have the resources to do it, but it isn't likely to end well.

On the subject of cadets. In easyjet's defence, they were recruiting cadets throughout 5 years of an employment drought. Had it not been for them (in the most part) the backlog of new well trained pilots, would stretch through the classroooms, the halls of residence, the bank managers office, all the way down the High street, over the hills and far away! As pretty much the only game in town, and with a low cost philosophy in every heartbeat, it was inevitable that "flexicrew" and T&C's to match, would manifest themselves in some form or other. It is also perfectly reasonable that the survivors would seek the same terms as most other pilots as the situation improved.

So here we are.

Is Monarch a good move for cadets looking for a career placement? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for ex-cadets looking to advance? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for pilots looking for a career progression? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for pilots looking for career stability? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for pilots looking for a sound employer? Yes!
Is Monarch a good move for pilots looking for good terms and conditions? Yes!
Is Monarch a good company for general satisfaction of lifestyle? Yes!
Is Monarch a company where you and your family are likely to be happy? Yes!
Can I guarantee the future? No! But then I couldn't thirty years ago either. However I am convinced that the future plans, resources, and commitment are very good. Talking to the new pilots who have joined this year over a beer at the bar, they don't doubt the choices they have made either, or indeed the good fortune to be a part of the future.

Good post.

The terms and conditions of the easyJet flexi cadets are what they are and are what was offered. That some are now finding jobs and contracts that they find better is good for them and good for the profession. When you're the only game in town you get to set the rules. When there's several games in town - that's much healthier and honest.

Let's just hope that we see more airlines following Monarch and investing and employing. There is a truly massive army of wannabes with licences queuing up to sign contracts of employment. I fear that we have a training industry appropriate to the boom years and as a consequence a huge oversupply of cadet pilots. As such I doubt much will change contract wise at the big locos for many years. The good news for airlines like Monarch is that this provides a rich resource of experienced, well trained and willing FO's.

well, I wish my former colleagues well.I know a few from baby who have been hovered up by Mon for EMA.

I hope their transition to a more aggressive loco scheduled pays off. They appear to be one of the few 'gentleman' airlines left.Good TCs, bonded for new types. I always enjoy travelling with them, because I get an allocated seat...Should have applied really.

By comparison, E*syjet, from a passenger point of view shows it's age , its all cool brittania, mid 90s, Tony Blair. IE horrible.

fade to grey - whatever your particular angst towards easyJet, the travelling public would not seem to support your view. In March 2012 (the last month for which Monarch published stats), Monarch carried 249,646 passengers on scheduled services. In the same month easyJet carried 4,629,241 passengers. Perhaps they may be doing more right than would initially be apparent to you.

I feel a sense of great sadness that a significant number of easyJet flexicrew pilots have got up and left to join Monarch. I stand by my view that it is a risky move, but genuinely wish them success in their new company. As anyone who has been around aviation knows, there is very little genuine making of your own luck. The moves you make seem good or bad at the time, but are rarely what you expected or intended. My gut feeling is that Monarch are not the wondrous rescuers of the poor and needy that they are being touted as here, nor is their future as bright as some of their employees would wish to think. Nonetheless, I am utterly frustrated at easyJet's attitude and I recognise that we have created this situation.

I would commend the wise words of Wee Weasley Welshman who invariably has great insight on these and other matters. He would contend that ultimately this is an issue of supply and demand. In essence these young cadets have by their very presence priced experienced pilots out of jobs and thought they had done well. Alas, they are finding out that the very quality (i.e. cheap to employ) that got them their job is the very same one that is forcing them to move on. A hard-nosed businessmen (of whom there are a number in senior positions at easyJet), might hold a radical view on this subject. He might say that cadets are two a penny and why should they change how things are done when it is like taking candy from kids? Basically, they can offer to charge people to work for us and still they would come in their hundreds. There is an infinite supply of desperate young men and women who would do virtually anything and sign any contract to wake up in the cockpit of an Airbus. Given that scenario, why would a business want to pay big money for them when they will effectively pay us to let them fly? I do not subscribe to that view myself, but it would seem to be the inevitable consequence of flooding a market with low-houred pilots, most of whom will never actually have a job. Those that do can be replaced overnight by 10 more will work for even less than their predecessors. Given that situation, it is almost impossible to maintain terms and conditions. My hearty congratulations to Monarch for behaving so honourably, but I fear they are in a very small minority of companies.

You can't compare passenger numbers like that.
Easyjet have more aircraft at Gatwick alone than Monarch have in their whole fleet!
Different products, Easy pile high, sell cheap and have a huge number of aircraft, routes and bases to cover the costs. It is a shame that they just don't have more respect for their staff!!
Monarch are going through a transition and expansion. Being smaller they try to offer a better service, remember sweets, newspapers and hot meals?! Unfortunately to compete effectively against the newer carriers cuts have had to be made, they they still aim for the quality, slightly more personalised service!
They do tend to have a good relationship with their employees and look after them. They know unhappy staff will leave. So they try to keep them!!

Basically as a pilot looking at the jobs, I would say Monarch do care for their pilots more! This may upset crews at Easy to see their flexi colleuges leave for a better offer. And I know as more leave the worse it will get for those left!
Monarch is a solid company who looks after staff. You can't compare to Easy and critasise. It's just not the same!!

I understand this view in respect that people think Monarch is a less secure company than EZY and any possible further downturn may hit them worse.
However how is staying on a flexi crew contract with EZY anymore secure? Any down turn would hit both companies and I can't see much job security in a contracting position. You may well still have a job with EZY with earning per flying hour I wouldn't be expecting to earn much.

That is a ridiculous statistic, it tells you nothing. EZY have 200+ aeroplanes and Monarch a mere 32 at the moment, so of course EZY are going to carry significantly more passengers.

Or you might lose your job with no redundancy protection at all!

Plus Monarch do medium/long haul so the passengers are on the aircraft longer and further... ridiculous comparison.

Monarch is a no brainer
 

Frankly I don't work for Monarch - but I'm with a leading regional airline (who also believe in giving people a full salary, uniform, employment contract etc from day one) but I wish Monarch and all their staff every success with their strategy and I hope that Monarch continue to thrive for as long as there is Jet A1 in the ground! There are too few companies like Monarch, BA,etc who believe in treating employees as people to be nurtured, supported and developed rather than as a liability to be exploited and quite honestly if people leave Easy flexycrew or Ryan etc in droves to go to Monarch I would say it's a very sane decision. From what I gather both Easy and Ryan will work you harder, pay you less, put you on a temporary contract, charge you for type rating and line training and spit you out at a moment's notice if it suits them.

If the exodus from the lo-co's were to develop into a genuine flood then I could see a time when the likes of Easy/Ryan wouldn't be able to get away with their exploitative schemes and that would be a very happy day for all of us.

I might also say that I don't loathe Easy the way I despise Ryanair, but I just don't admire their ethics with new recruits. Frankly I might have been tempted by Monarch myself but from the jet fleet in my company with high seniority, the base I want and a permanent contract that would be a difficult choice.

I beg to differ - those statistics tell everything. In 1996/7 we had 2 aircraft and Monarch had slightly less than they do today. We attacked the market place with clever marketing and cheap fares while companies like Monarch looked down their noses at us. The reason easyJet now has more aircraft is more people want to use them, depressing as that may be to you all. Even more depressing is the fact that Ryanair carry more passengers than we do - principally because they bought the right aircraft with 737-800s (189 seats) and we bought the wrong ones with A319s (156 seats) instead of A320s (180 seats). The fact that easyJet Gatwick (51 aircraft I believe) is substantially bigger than Monarch in total (32 aircraft) is that the people who run easyJet have been tough marketeers who have found a niche market and built aggressively upon it whilst stealing passengers from their legacy competitors. Therefore we now have 204 aircraft now instead of the 2 we started with just over 15 years ago. Monarch have rested on their laurels for years, kept an old fleet with varying mod states, flown multiple aircraft types and somehow thought it would all be all right in the end. That is not the fault of the pilots or the flight ops department but it is the fault of the people who run the company who fiddled while Rome burnt. To their great credit, Monarch are now coming out fighting, but what on earth were they thinking for the last 15 years? Just remember, these are the same people who are still running the company that all you think has a fantastic future - I genuinely hope you are right, but I would not bet my pay cheque upon it. There is much negative talk about easyJet management, but they are still talking of 'turning Europe orange'. You may not like it, but I do - I want to be part of a company where the management have vision and direction.

I have never, however, been embarrassed to say when easyJet management have been wrong, and they have most certainly been so over the cadet issue. The mere fact that cadets are desperate to go to Monarch, and feel delighted to be there, says that Monarch are doing something we are not - building a corporate culture that employees identify with and buy into. We have done that for our permanent staff but alienated our flexicrew pilots, despite countless warnings to our managers - that is something I deeply regret. The problem has been that when I and others speak to our managers, they tell me it is only old Training Captains like me who are bothered about the cadet situation and the cadets themselves think they are lucky people. I am told some of them even write emails to our CEO etc saying that they are happy with their lot! In a nutshell, they have failed to make their true feelings known - maybe for understandable fear of upsetting the apple cart. None of this is an attack on Monarch, a company that I wish nothing but good upon. It is, however, a statement that easyJet and Ryanair have wiped the floor in marketing terms with their competitors and that is reflected in the passenger statistics I have quoted and the load factors which I have not. If Monarch are at last waking up from their 15 year sleep walk into oblivion that is good news, but boy did they need to. All pilots want other pilots to succeed and have jobs. As I have said before, I would not advise my son to go to Monarch but I could be totally wrong. Many job decisions are actually emotionally driven. Something deep inside says your current employers are losers and you just need to be shot of them. Once that feeling has set in, it is almost impossible to have a rational conversation on the subject thereafter. Sadly, those cadets who have left us did so under the impression they were going to a 'proper' employer who would look after them and care for them - that is easyJet's loss and I can only regret that we failed to treat these guys better and give them proper contracts. I truly wish them well, but am yet to be persuaded that in the long term they have made the best move - time will tell if I was right or not, and I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

It tells you that easyJet have expanded massively and that's about it. What happens when they need to start replacing aircraft like Monarch are having to do? Did you decide to leave out the load factors because they tell a different story? Just out of interest I've just been on the easy website and got these:

Load Factor2 89.9% 88.3% 1.6pp
The first figure is June 2012, second is June 2011 with the percentage increase.

These are Monarch's figures for the same month:

Passenger numbers (1)
June 2012 626,185
June 2011 506,321
% change 24%

Load factor (2)
June 2012 91.52%
June 2011 87.81%
% change 3.7% pts.


As you can see - our load factor is 2% higher than easy's and we have a 24% increase in passenger figures, mainly due to better utilisation of aircraft. Monarch are making the right moves. As for passenger numbers as I said - Monarch have several long haul aircraft, the passengers may stay on for twice the length of time and pay twice the price for a ticket... so not really comparable - it's like saying Ford sold 1000 cars but Lamborghini sold 10 - but if a Lambo is 20 times as expensive and makes 100% more profit on each car - who is the real winner? You mention niches... Monarch have had their niche for a long time and easy haven't really stepped on that. The truth is airfare has become cheaper and easyJet has picked up the slack created by those lower airfares.



I'm not regretting moving at all - I earnt more this month than I did over 3 Winter months at easyJet, being a cadet at easy is the lowest of the low, I would have done anything for a permanent job on the same Ts and Cs as the other permanent guys but that will NEVER be forthcoming now at easy - can't you see that? No cadet from my era thinks themselves lucky - maybe the guys joining now who were aware of flexicrew before starting training are but then that's a different breed.


I was under the impression that Monarch treated their staff better and so far I have been proved right - so my impression was correct, if not exceeded.

Where were Monarch when you needed your first job two years ago?

I'm glad flexicadets are finding alternative jobs. Its a win for them, easyJet, CTC, some new guy, the trainers and Monarch. I don't really 'get' Monarchs new business plan but that's probably because I'm a bit thick and it hasn't been explained to me enough. No airline is 'safe' these days. Even the walls of the mighty Air France are starting to tremble..

That really does surprise me, not one flexi pilot I know would consider themselves particularly happy with their lot. Maybe happy to be scraping together loan repayment money most months and actually be flying rather than unemployed. But happy enough to be writing glowing letters to the CEO - Who are these crazy people?!

Ezy is indeed a very successful company but passenger figures as a comparative measure of success is just not credible. Also; "Past performance doesn't not guarantee future performance" or whatever the investment industry caveat emptor states. This is true of Monarch, and everyone else, too.

To those that join Monarch - welcome and I look forward to flying with you.

For those who have thrown their lot in with Ezy - I wish you all the best too...even the self righteous ones. :ok:

Two years ago I missed out on a Monarch interview because I was about 5 places too far down the CTC hold pool to be considered. :(

So when the likes of easyjet came along telling us that we'll (likely) be flying in excess of 750 hours a year and permanent UK jobs were in the negotiation process it did not seem too risky to go in as flexi-crew. At the time! Obviously things have changed significantly and looking back I think I made one of the worst decisions in my career. To which I now have to pay through my nose yet again to go. From what ever angle you look at it, CTC make so much money from a flexi-crew pilot it's shameful.

I'm praying that this next move is not something I'll regret this time next year. There were no other airlines recruiting at the time and no sign of them doing so in the future so it was a choice of going to an airline with crap T&C's but gaining experience, or going back to the office to do something I had no interest in doing and said office job would probably pay me no much more than what I would be expected to earn as a flexi-crew pilot. A very tough choice had to be made.

I've heard various rumours lately. This is a rumour network after all. Including the one CM is in early negotiations to leave and go to M&S. Ride the wave, get the share price as high as it will go, cash in and leave maybe? And permanent jobs on the continent will be almost non-existent next year so flexi-crew guys waiting for one maybe sorely disappointed.

Spoke to one other flexi-crew pilot recently who thought things will get better soon at eJ. I'm not so convinced. Another who frankly mocked me for making the decision to move. :{

Here's hoping things will get better for all.

Anyone aware if Monarch have now finished recruting ?

I hear all about the poor flexi-crew now getting a chance to move somewhere better, would it be fair to assume that Monarch will not be looking at the folk that have not paid for their ratings, fought to work and build a handful of hours on much smaller aircraft ? fair to say they will be forgotten in the wake of the flexi-crew cadets ?

Outiside CAS - I'm not sure where the recruitment dept are up to with this. Certainly non-TRd pilots are filtering through the system with some having been offered positions and others awaiting interviews in the next few weeks.

I'm sure someone said a while back that courses have been filled up until about April 13 so far. Can anyone confirm this?

Monarch have ceased recruiting according to the website - inundated no doubt.
Meerkat - I have no angst towards Ezy at all. I just don't enjoy it as a passenger , having positioned numerous times in the past. If they just allocated a seat alot of the stress would evaporate.The crazy queues that form at the gate before it has even arrived......

I very much enjoyed going on flybe from LGW - NCL last year.Small plane allocated seat, enthusiastic staff.

As far as I'm aware, Monarch never re-opened the online recruitment after the initial rush and are working through the applications received still.
Everyone I know who has had jobs / interviews didn't use the online system and I've yet to find someone who isn't still just "active application" on the online site.

I've also heard from someone at Monarch that courses up until April next year are being filled and there is an initial number of 90 FOs with some further on going recruitment planned after this - I can only assume that will be from the current pool of applicants.

Still interviewing
 

Still interviewing, courses not filled upto April I doubt total number of courses even known yet by head shed. We have given places to type rated, military, turbo prop, CTC I am very pleased to confirm....

I do not understand why Monarch are expanding into a market that is saturated.

Ryan and easyjet are aggressive with costs and competitors.

The public do not differentiate between the likes of easy,Ryanair,monarch or anyone else in Europe on the basis of quality of service. The predominant factors in the decision to fly are cost and convenience. That is where Ryan and easyjet models vary slightly and where Monarch is going to struggle when they try to establish new aircraft on new routes.

Good luck to those who got in.

Thanks for the replies - was curious to know also if anyone had been sent a "PFO" at all, but appears not. I know of no-one either being binned as yet, so guess the waiting game continues :}

HPbleed - easyJet are replacing aircraft right now. They have a pile of brand new A320s rolling up and are using them to seamlessly replace their early A319s whilst keeping the total numbers around 204-ish. I am not sure that comparing Ford and Lamborghini products easyJet and Monarch is quite the distinction I would make personally, but there you go! Regarding load factors, I did not quote them because of the summer-oriented operation that Monarch run. I could not initially find the figures beyond March which is why I quoted that month. Having searched deeper into their website here are the last few months:

----------Monarch easyJet
Feb 12---87.17%----87.6%
Mar 12---87.7%-----88.8%
Apr 12----N/A-------89.3%
May 12--81.92%----88.0%
Jun 12---91.52%----89.9%

A very good set of results for both companies, and I would draw nothing from the 'better' figures of previous months that easyJet had. More revealing is that the passenger numbers for Monarch to achieve this steady 80-90% load factor is 626,185 in June but 179,215 in February. The equivalent easyJet figures were 5,434,763 and 3,976,741 respectively. In other words, Monarch hardly operate in the winter - which is a perfectly sound business plan for a bucket and spade company, but not one that easyJet could follow given their emphasis on non-leisure travel. The fascinating statistic is the 24% increase in passengers carried by Monarch compared with the previous year in June - at last they are starting to fight and indeed provide the opportunity to young pilots like yourself to escape the curse of orange living that has become so irksome. I have not the slightest doubt that you are enjoying it more than easyJet, and I can only regret we did not behave more sensibly in an attempt to keep good guys like yourself. Where we differ is whether or not the permanent contract issue can be won. I hugely regret that we did not fight it out this last round as we should have done. The fact is that we blew it, but we can still win it in the next year. I fully understand you and your colleagues need to sort out your immediate futures rather than wait for a change which may never happen - but I do believe it will if we man up for the fight. My issue is the long term future of the company, and only time will tell who was right and who was wrong - in my ideal world we would both be sat happy and delighted for a long time to come. Good luck to you and I hope it turns out to be all you hope it to be.

Sprinkles - I am really at a loss to see how you can think that turning up with 155 hours from CTC and then getting to fly an Airbus with easyJet is the worst career move you ever made. There are literally hundreds of young men and women who have shiny frozen ATPLs and would give their right arm to be in your position. It is a harsh reality that the saturation of the market with low-houred pilots has brought down terms and conditions. Most of your predecessors are guys who did instructor flying for £10/hour, air taxi work, turboprops, night freight etc before ever seeing the inside of a Boeing or an Airbus. You are incredibly fortunate to be able to now leave and get a job with Monarch, BA, Virgin, Cathay or Emirates - you are hardly in a bad position.

"I fully understand you and your colleagues need to sort out your immediate futures rather than wait for a change which may never happen."

There is the issue. The noises coming from Hanger 89 are painting an incredibly gloomy picture. Many of us do voice our opinions regarding the long term future of FlexiCrew and we are genuinely concerned about it. Some of us have been told to stop making noises as it is proving unpopular in the Hanger among our leaders. Some of the guys reaching the end of their three years have been told by some managers they will be kept on, told by other managers they may not and told by CTC there's no agreement yet. BALPA believe any fight is an incredibly long one and there is unlikely to be a safe immediate future for easyJet contractors. European contracts have dried up, there will be trickles of movement but nothing on the scale of previous years. There are rumours of incredibly large numbers being laid off this winter (and that is only a rumour). Hours in the summer have reduced massively with many of us flying circa 50 per month in the summer, very few standbys and lots of rest days resulting in extremely low annual salaries (when compared with last year).

Now we are as much to blame as anybody so whilst we have been lead up the garden path, I am not looking for sympathy, indeed I feel guilty. If one compares that situation with the opportunity Monarch provide it isn a no-brainer as to where the better contract is. Stable salary, leave, loyalty, pension, insurances and being treat like a professional pilot.

AdM I will not disagree that easyJet may be a safer place to be should there be more issues to hit the airline industry. Only, though, if one has a permanent contract.

AdM you're right my choice of words were not really very good. In fact I am very grateful for the experience I have gained knowing not many people get to do it. Especially with my hours after training. Alas this has been at a huge financial cost to me and there's no denying I have paid to get where I am. I'm not not proud or happy to have done it this way as 4 years ago cadets were taking on through merit and given perm UK jobs with the TR costs paid for through being bonded to the airline. Not so anymore. :(

Unfortunately the only way to stop cadets doing this now is to stand together as a whole. Cadets need to realise what problems lie ahead for them going down the flexi-crew path (something which I think is becoming more evident as time ticks away). In some respects I think we've all allowed this down grade in T&C's and something drastic needs to be done to stop the rot any further. I don't know what that is though. The only winners have been CTC and eJ.

Only when cadets categorically refuse to go into flexi-crew that the light at the end of the tunnel will appear. Sadly I don't think any guys will because as you say we are so eager for the opportunity many of us fail to see the damage it causes.

Apologies once again for choice of words. I am bloody grateful for my past years service and I'm looking forward to moving up the salary scale.

Can anyone share what kind of staff travel Monarch provide for employees?

I said that flexi cadets leaving easyJet for other airlines was a win for CTC because it is. They get to sell another replacement unit from their huge stockpile. That point is neither crass nor shameful. It is true. The context was to make the point that nobody who matters is actually worried, concerned or bothered about flexi cadets leaving.

I have done more than most to point out both the tactical and strategic folly of Wannabes pursuing the CTC style path. Eventually I got bored being comprehensively ignored and being called miserable.

Staff travel
 

A poorer area for us. Staff travel is not worth any effort and you can better deals with others unfortunately. The few things we have, 20% discount for friends and family, travel card that allows us to travel sby on Monarch flights(tax only to pay). 8 years service you get a free flight, once a year you get 85% Discount on a flight. A lot of flights in school hols are embargoed so you can't use discounts anyway....

Things appear to have changed a little over the years. When I got my first flying job in civil aviation, I was very pleased that the company chose to employ me & I was most grateful for that. The offer of `freebees` & other such like inducements, was a little further down my list. O well, times have changed some what apparently.

Post by WWW
 

You can talk until you're blue in the face. It's completely futile. There are hoards of wannabes willing to partake in such schemes and I guess until people are physically unable to access capital, then there always will be. The two largest lo-costs (EZY & FR) show massive comparisons. Poorly remunerated contracts, temporary basing, over-crewing of FOs and henceforth a decline in rostered hours. More seasonal operations and a reduction in growth has shown that prospects down the line (time to command, training positions, permanent contracts) are now dwindling.

This is FACTUAL and if those with the cheque books burning a hole in their pockets stopped for a moment then they would possibly avoid the predicament that they are going to be faced with. If you are banking on the fact that either A) you'll get a few hours and jump ship to the likes of BA, MON or one of the Middle Eastern carriers or B) things will pick up and all this is just a blip then I'd say you'd be faced with the roughly the same odds as becoming one of the hundred millionaires in the UK lottery draw this evening. A few will be lucky but the vast majority will not.

As much as this is a thread dedicated to Monarch and those fortuitous enough to join, it should be used as an example to those eager to join the likes of EZY or FR as cadets. However I'm more than prepared for it to be comprehensively ignored and much like WWW, be accused of being a miserable barsteward.

I've been with Monarch about 22 years now and praise my lucky stars every day so to be.

They're not perfect, in fact I've had a good old gripe recently about the omnishambles that is our IT strategy... but nonetheless, a fantastic employer
who I hope will be around for another 40 odd years. And, if Lugano has the inclination, will be as they could fund the airline out of what they lose down the back of the sofa. (ps all you negatives out there who will dive in to say that the family want out please tell me how you have a window on the collective mind of the Mantegazza family)

Pilot wages and costs are a significant factor, but nothing compared to the interaction of the cost of oil and its hedging/ currency exchange rates and interest rates.. get that right, be efficient, and you can compete with anyone.