Biggles, totally agree with you!

One day I hope to join you at spotty M, good luck fella.

Whilst we are looking at posting histories consider that those who are so offended by people having an opinion other than their own have a combined posting history of about 10, we're all registered in June/July 2012 and offer very little signal and a great deal of noise. Interesting.

Monarch has been a more than 50% scheduled airline for over a decade now and is currently more like 80% scheduled, with more scheduled routes, including winter ski, being added all the time. The idea that we have "just" decided to go scheduled is thus rather wide of the mark. A charter flight is by definition profitable (as long as you can add up) as you sell the aircraft for a fixed price when it is hired which covers your costs (including fuel price increases between signing the contract and flying the sectors) - it is then up to the charterer to recover its costs. However, over the last 10 years there has been less charter business around - from the tour operators' point of view, why take the risk chartering a whole aeroplane when you can just buy a block of scheduled seats?

As has been said the numbers of pilots an airline employs is rather meaningless as it is "Full Time Equivalents" that is the important number - many of our pilots are either 75% or 50% of full time or employed on part-year working with some of the winter months off, which other than for a limited quota of new joiners is at the pilot's own choice. If you look at the CAA produced figures Monarch compares pretty favourably with the rest in terms of crew efficiency. 700 to 800 hours a year is typical on the SH FBW fleet, and pilots regularly choose to breach the 90 hours a month contractual limit in return for overtime payments. Given that we are not the worst payers in the industry, this must mean that they like coming to work!

In terms of Shareholder investment, why would a private business be afforded a cash injection of any amount if there was not a vision that there was money to be made in the longer term? No company can rest on its laurels and assume that because it has been around for 45 years it will always be there - the airline business, of all businesses, has no respect for past heritage and it is the hard numbers that count. Nevertheless, over that 45 years Monarch has quietly adapted to change, usually under other airlines' radars, the transition to scheduled flights being a prime example where most observers simply haven't noticed. All this whilst quietly pioneering new technology such as the B757 to cite an old example and fitting Class 2 EFBs to its aircraft as a more recent one.

Monarch is not afraid to take on the competition, and where it does it usually wins market share until it is the most popular airline on that route. We have moved to take over some of the Baby routes from EMA, but notice that this is a small fraction of the total routes that Baby flew. Our operations in the Baby/Jet2 part of the UK in Birmingham and Manchester (where we are the largest operator bar none) have been very successful, and we look forward to growing those businesses in a measured way and taking on new bases where this is prudent. Far from being a "reckless" expansion it is simply taking advantage of the market as it presents itself, leaving other airlines trailing in its wake, and incidentally those airlines have made no secret that they are pretty hacked off about it, as has been evidenced in part here I suspect.

A recession means you have to do what you have been doing well better, cut out the dead wood and become more efficient, advertise to keep your customers doing what they know they really want to, and treat your competitors with the utmost respect whilst trying to pinch their business! :ok:

I applaud any airline offering permanent contracts and not the morally bankrupt pay by the block hour contracts that seem to be the norm with low cost carriers! Faced with the choice of leaving my family and working hour to hour in a European base not of my choosing or a permanent contract at base I can request, the decision is an easy one to make! Good luck to all those in the running. What does p**s me off is that the overall winners will be CTC!

Really surprised that no-one has yet mentioned the pension deficit that they've run up , we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds here . And about ten million (?) a year from the company goes into attempting to reduce this for the next 20 years or so.
Interesting times at ZB - this new commercial head (who doesnt seem to stick around long anywhere - source , LinkedIn) really isn't afraid to take risks with regard to new routes/bases , and so for the first time there is no "quietly adapting to change" , its a full on ZB assault , albeit about 10 years too late in my view.
MON were losing money and it wasn't working . Long haul was pretty well non-existant (bar Hadj and MOD) , small tour ops charter was dying post XL and recession , so with this new found cash injection from Lugano , it had to be ZB and a complete change in company policy , or bust (excuse the pun) .
However still in 2012 , the uk lo-co market is saturated , there's still a recession on , and there is literally nowhere else to go for MON's new aircraft, hence the almost desperate steps of announcing Ema and extra Bhx post the Baby shutdown. The subbing in of 4 737 aircraft , in what i can only think is an airport slot gaining exercise , is again risky in terms of pax perception , and financially hopeless!
Don't get me wrong - this might work , and it needs to -and JS will be seen as the saviour of LU2 , it might however not , and then things get nasty.
I agree with brakedwell when he notices the similarities between Air Europe and MON dramatically increasing their fleet size during a recesssion (note i've used that word 3 times now) , and whereas in 1991 MON survived cos of Euroberlin , now they've only got ZB.
If you are a cadet or stuck on a TP (and they like Flybe!) then definitely go for it in order to get some jet hours . Otherwise , i would seriously heed the advice of some on here (i'm even agreeing with B+B!) and proceed with caution.....

It is by no means desperate.

Monarch are taking advantage of a few of the routes left open by BMI Baby and not the non profitable ones.

We are not talking slots but taking up the slack left behind by BMI Baby and the need to move fast before other airlines moved in, which they tried to do but couldn't as we had done it already.

By your argument they must have been desperate too then!

On most of the routes we do we hold the highest market share and the ones where we don't we hold 2nd place.

Yes we did make a loss but it can't be compared to other airlines as the money set up is completely different. The shareholder takes money out so we don't have the cash in the bank that other airlines do, but when we need cash he lets us have some back.

Bear in mind also that in the loss we made quite a bit of that was money paid to the shareholder in lease costs for the aeroplanes. A bit of smoke and mirrors but things weren't as bad as the bottom line might make it seem.

There does seem to be sour grapes against Monarch and I would imagine that a lot of it is O'Leary stooges as he is upset that we beat him into EMA.

To that end I don't know why I am getting sucked in by the Trolls!

EDIT TO SAY:

Having read DjerbaDevil's posts in other threads he is obviously a Jet 2 man, one of the other airlines beaten to EMA and we are now launching from LBA this winter so no sour grapes there!!!

Seems to me people are quitting good jobs to go to monarch, and most people would love to join! If I was to listen to any uk operators employees ( don't include ryan!!! Yes I know ei but mostly uk ops) they hate work! Monarch seems a place of contentment, that's Novel these days, good on them!

FMGC
 

DD is also a 757 man, I wonder if he applied to us not so long ago and didn't get the gig......

So with all this talk about great negativity from people designed to stir up anti-Monarch feelings, I'd like to ask the question, genuinely to those who are more in the know than us:

Do we know what the future plans of Monarch are?

From what I hear, the new routes out of BHX are doing excellently, and giving "the largest regional airline" a little bit of a pasting on the routes they are competing on. But this expansion out of BHX and EMA, is it going to be part of a continued expansion plan? Or is it just capitalising on the bmiBaby routes? Would there be further plans for expanding the airline and route network too?

All this talk about negativity and the airline not knowing what they are doing, is a bit insane. In my opinion, there's got to be a plan... BHX has always been an under-served airport in terms of many routes and I think that MON are filing the void very nicely at the moment.

The problem with EMA would be the direct competition against Jet2, who I believe could well be their largest competitor at the moment.

I'm sure the answers lie somewhere in the previous pages, but sifting through pages of people saying "You're all fools for applying" doesn't really appeal to me right now.

To correct some of the wrongly stated facts above:

Monarch have been at BHX for 15 plus years.

Hour wise I think most Monarch fbw full time captains are flying between 700 and 850 hours year - some are doing more. There is a shortage of crew at present otherwise we would not be wet leasing in additional capacity.

Of the employers/airlines I've worked for Monarch is not perfect (tell me an airline that is) but they are by far and away the best employer I've had.

We are short of crew at the moment without taking into account the expansion but when the training program is complete hopefully we should be fully up to strength. We just couldn't get the airplanes or crews trained in time for the short lead time into these new routes, we would have had to wet lease anyway.

To answer an earlier question there was going to be an expansion anyway but the demise of BMI Baby has accelerated the plans.

What does that tell you about how long and hard they've thought about and planned this expansion? The company and it's plans in today's market in my opinion are fraught with failure.

B&B,

Are you very small??

Expansion well thought out but brought forward due demise of Baby.

No you're just standing far away.

So they didn't fancy their chances against BMI baby? I don't fancy their chances then.

Courses Booked
 

I have heard from Management that they are now recruiting for courses in April for the Airbus, no idea about the 75, but I think it was one course planned.

Again, none of this is concrete, just what I've heard from the inside.

Sounds like recruitment is almost complete then if they're booking into April. :(

B&B, a long time ago you stated you were leaving this discussion, what changed your mind? Nobody missed you. we get it, Mon not for you although our famous selection procedure (tw@t test) should ensure we never have the displeasure of your company anyway. Your ill informed outsiders opinion is neither constructive or helpful, merely negative towards a company you have no connection to or desire to join. It was previously stated there was always an intention to expand, the sad demise of baby just increased the opportunities and hopefully we can hoover up some of the experienced guys that find themselves in an unfortunate position now.
Seriously, didn't daddy love you enough? Or did Uncle Bob love you too much? ;)
Go get a hobby.

Gunka

Like it!;)

Never worked for Monarch but have always thought of them as a good an employer as any out there. Not flash but they have survived the hard times that others have not. I'm sure it's not perfect there but where is? Good luck to all the guys applying to them.

Going slowly bust?
 

Nice airline, largely good people. But directionless and floundering. As usual, blame top management, not the airline. Mid 2013, gone

Ohh B&B how you have a short memory. Monarch is currently experiencing growing pains as your beloved Easyjet did couple of years ago. Who can forget the absolute ball ache you lot endured during that summer.

Easyjet got it so wrong that year, they turned to Monarch for a short lease at LGW as crews were maxed out. Not slagging off Easyjet in anyway as BA suffered the same fate and called in Monarch.

Now it's our turn

And let's not forget the PM you sent me registering a lil interest in Monarch few months back. You're permanent and safe in Easy, many of your colleagues are not so fortunate. No idea if it's down to BALPA screwing you over or vice versa.

Wind your neck in

Haha the truth is out! :D

Let me understand this correctly. The owner of Monarch Airlines is the 546th richest ($2.3B) person on this planet. He made this money by running a multitude of different companies. And now the armchair idiots come out and say in a roundabout way that he doesn’t know what he is doing? :ugh:

The gentleman above has run more businesses then any of you had hot meals. While doing this, he has seen several recessions and the effects of those on the individual businesses. Do you really believe that he would have invested in Monarch if he would think that Monarch would fold anytime soon? He has got some of the best financial advisers on his staff and if he would not have wanted Monarch to succeed he would have wound the company up at the beginning of the recession.

Now that is a pretty valid point i have to say...People dont become self made billionaires by chance

Would Monarch already have folded if it's ownership had been different, say a banking conglomerate..?

The wealthy GB Airways owners pulled the plug but Branson still refuses to let his baby go.

I beg you, don't come back.

Mr Bloggs,i better inform the family i'll be out of work by mid2013!!!!....could you give me six lotto numbers as well! Seeing as though you can predict the future!!?..:mad:

That's all the troll has done!!!

Even in signing off B&B you manage to degrade and insult people, incredible. Flexi crew nonentities? Apparently you were interested in Mon after all, don't waste your time, not with that attitude. People here, no matter what their rank or contract get treated with respect by their peers and management who they know by first name and can call any time they have an issue. If the alternative is working with people like you is it any wonder they are looking to leave? What's your excuse for putting out the feelers if the future is so bright and orange?
The one thing I do agree with you is that time will tell, not you, not me or anyone else on here. If I had that crystal ball I wouldn't be flying for a living, I'd be doing it for fun.

Interview.....
 

Had an interview over a week ago and yet to hear anything? I am TR'd with plenty of hours. Fearing the worst..........

Hearing that several bmibaby pilots have been offered jobs.

Wanted to add my 2 cents to this thread.

Leaving very (secure?) flexi orange job to go to Mon. My reasons are quite simple. The constant shafting I've received from ej/CTC since starting with regards to hours and pay has forced me to seek a competitive salary else where. I love my job. I fly with great people and a/c but no interest from the company in making any UK flexi based F/O's permanent employees. And please no one say Project Merlin was competitive! :ugh:

So I don't want to leave but feel I have no other choice given the opportunity. To give people a realistic idea and scale of the problem here's a very real example. If i'm rostered 30 hours in Dec (they're quite entitled too and what I had last year), I'll earn a whooping £1,290 gross. Well it's no surprise that my loan repayments, rent, food, council tax, water tax, electricity, car running costs etc exceed this. :{

I do ask people if you were in my (our) position of actually making yourself further in debt by staying with you current employer, would you not seek employment elsewhere?

Mr Blonde. Never heard of anyone who has had an interview turned down. But that's not to say it doesn't happen. They took about 9 working days to get back to me so hold tight. :ok:

Also a mate of mine (Experienced turb prop guy) has got an interview so those with similar experience are also in with a shout.

Now no one put a gun to my head and forced me to go to orange land last year so most of my financial problems are mostly self inflicted. Yes I said it I'm well and truely part of the main :mad: up that constitutes flexi-crew. I'm not proud of it nor do I defend myself other than the fact we were all spun various "promises" from ctc/ej that never materialised, Permanent UK jobs within the company which when proposed left a bitter taste in the mouth. Fortunately there were rejected. A pay example illustrated what people would earn flying a minimum of 750 hours a year. I'll be lucky if I break 700! That'll be over £2,000 less a year earnings.

So now a better offer has come up I've found it very difficult to turn it down. Especially as my job is so secure..... or is it. Anyone see I put a question mark after it at the start?

Well the latest rumour on the street is 40 orange a/c will be parked up over the winter with 150-250 guys let go over the quiet season. So for anyone to say that flexi-crew guys have secure jobs are a little deluded in my honest opinion. CTC and ej can give us 30 days notice if they don't want us. And I suspect the guys that are doing there 8 months line flying may well not be flying anything after that. But on the flip side this does give the company great flexibility at a very low cost. Yay!!! :yuk:

Hopefully that's a good grounded opinion of someone that is in the continual mire that is otherwise known as flexi-crew.

p.s. B&B. I can honestly say I respect your opinion and that of your peers with similar thoughts. In fact I kind of think we'd get on quite well if we flew together. I like flying with people that have good conversation skills and their own opinions. Always good to get another point of view. That's genuine. But this thread is here for people that want to go to Mon. I'm sure we're all big boys and girls and can make up our own decisions based on what we're able to find out ourselves. Despite the risks!

Good luck to everyone else going through the Monarch process, those on flexi-crew this winter and Monarch!!!

Sprikles,

If every post was like yours this would be a better place!

Well done, good luck.

:ok:

Sprinkles,

I wish you all the best in your new job. With an attitude like yours you will get along well everywhere. Well put and very balanced.

We might even have flown together.

Sprinkles

If i was in your position I would do the same, it is a no brainer!

Best of luck. :ok:

Sprinkles I too would do the same. Before you wrote that I was going to say something. I've recently seen the same documents you mentioned and to be honest the situation in easy is now beyond the pale. I wasn't aware it was this bad. It is unreasonable. Easyjet are playing a very short term game. A game which eventually will make the job not worth it - certainly not with the level of debt we have attached to it. Life's too short.

To that end I'd recommend taking the Monarch offer with both hands and wish you and anyone else who does luck with it.

I, too, was going to write something similar to Sprinkles. Unfortunately the situation for FlexiCrew is becoming unacceptable. The latest cadets, I believe, have been told to expect the winter off. Those pilots nearing the end of their contracts with easyJet, I believe, have doubts about whether they will be kept on.

I do not want to turn this into a debate about cadets and their naivety but it is unfortunate they are still signing up with the knowledge it will not provide a job.

Sprinkles speaks a lot of sense and to add further to their gloomy picture for current FlexiCrew, it would appear that summer hours are reducing gradually also. When I signed up I was told to expect low winter hours but the annual salary would be leveled out with high summer hours. Not so anymore.

There is an argument that one is foolish for staying in the UK on FlexiCrew rather than moving abroad and enjoying full terms and conditions. This is a valid argument but unfortunately Europe will eventually, and fairly soon, be saturated with pilots leading to far lower levels of movement if the fleet does not continue to expand and promotions slow.

With this knowledge in hand, the argument of FlexiCrew versus Monarch is quite a simple one and I have opted for the latter. I am thankful Monarch are providing the opportunity and look forward to working for them. I have spoken to many of their staff and they all have good things to say about the company so I can’t wait to start. The conditions are good but perhaps more valuable to me is the certainty if the company continues to be successful and the prospect of being treat like a professional pilot.

I will never criticise my colleagues from easyJet as I have had the great pleasure of flying with some wonderful pilots to whom I owe a lot. I have also had the pleasure of working with great cabin crew and ground staff. It is of great sadness to me that that the company is wrecked by ongoing contractual situations and continuous contempt from management. I hope the tide turns in favour of the employees but I fear this will take a long while.

I am pretty sure I know Black and Brown and if I am correct with my assumptions I can vouch that he actually is a decent guy who speaks without malice. B and B has made valid arguments but as he acknowledges, it is unlikely that there will be a positive future for FlexiCrew within the UK.

As for those with questions about the interview, it is very relaxed. Two management pilots having a chat about you and your career. There will likely be a technical aspect and some discussion about CRM and other non-technical skills.

If the Monarch I saw during my application and interview is anything to go by, I expect I will love working for them. Good luck all.

It is a real shame the easyJet has gone down this path. They have everything in place to be a very good career airline: convenient bases, new well equipped aircraft, excellent training and great routes. For some reason they choose not to. Although you get the odd arrogant t****r, many of the cadets are competent, professional and level headed, as sprinkles so eloquently demonstrated. In any other profession, pay and terms and conditions would be such as to attract and retain these types of people. Easy seems to be actively doing the opposite as at present there is a constant stream of (cheaper) newbies to take their place. From a business point of view it makes perfect sense, from a moral point of view it is just wrong. Many large businesses, including airlines have managed to be successful without resorting to these draconian methods.

It is easy to blame the cadets or call them naive, however when faced with loan repayments etc and flexi-crew is your only option, you have to accept the pain, use it as a means to getting experience and move on. You could go further and question the taking of such loans or even getting involved with CTC in the first place. You can keep asking questions but eventually you arrive at one which we can be asked of all of us, why did you choose this profession in the first place?

We can speculate and debate all day as to the security of one airline against another, however surely this is a question of job security. In a sane world this would represent the same thing, however this is not the case as the flexi-crew contract offers no security whatsoever within what is a very secure airline.

I made my decision based on the same reasons highlighted in the last few posts and can honestly 100% say that I have not regretted my decision for a second. I have always enjoyed my job, but I now do so without resentment towards my employer and I actually feel appreciated for my efforts. On that basis I would actively encourage anyone, especially flexi-crew, to move.

Monarch like easyJet, demand high competency and professionalism. The difference is, in return you will be treated with respect, be paid well (and consistently!) and be afforded a decent work life balance and a definite career structure.

April 2010 Monarch teetered on the edge of failure following the Ash Cloud.

They have now abandoned that long held business model and bought new aircraft for new routes and new bases. Trouble is they pay too much money for too inflexible crew and I doubt they got aircraft anywhere near as cheaply as Ryan or Easy did when they ordered hundreds when the makers were desperate. So their cost base is higher. Their marketing budget will have to be higher again to win new customers on new routes from new bases.

They, like all airlines in that scenario, will bleed money heavily. Now I have no idea whether the owner cares about this or not. But neither do you. There is the gamble. Given the economic clouds forecast for 2013 I'd say the odds are risky.

Aer Lingus, a company with a significantly higher public awareness than Monarch, couldn't make LGW or BFS work when they put some A320's in there five years ago with crews on degraded contracts. Does Monarch know something Aer Lingus didn't? Maybe. Maybe not. Similarly there was a lot of excitement when BMI announced they were entering the point to point direct sales market with BMI Baby. Its taken nine years for that to come to an end in deep losses despite 2003 - 2007 being boom years.

Those joining for the present expansion are getting a better deal than they are currently on. That's part of the problem. It won't last. Then you're job hunting in 49degree heat and still carrying those massive training loans you signed up for :{

All companies that do fail usually do so for one very simple reason......They run out of cash!

The fundamental misunderstanding people often make, is that Monarch is a private company and not a PLC. It sits within a fairly complex and not particularly transparent portfolio of other companies that are also owned by the same families. Within these companies there is a significant degree of symbiosis as well as a degree of independence. To that extent there is also a high degree of risk hedging. In lay terms they keep their "egg" portfolio in a number of baskets.

The largest two "lo-co's" keep all their eggs in one basket. The model is simple, and in commerce it is a well established one. "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap!" They have a low cost base by contract leasing almost everything, from the aircraft to the pot plant in the Managing Directors office." There is precious little risk hedging, but that is offset by aggresive marketing and volume sales to achieve both growth and that all important cash flow. With the latter in mind they are also cash businesses. Almost all of their point of sale business is cash on purchase with most delivery at a later date. That cash generation tool is a critically important part of the model.

Historically if you at look at the evolution of airline models within similar markets, the real vulnerability is in being "runner up," in second place. The demise of the biggest competitor in your backyard eventually becomes the easiest if not the only road to expansion.

Monarch hasn't abandoned its previous model. It has however recognised the realities of the evolution of the markets it operates in, as well as the other players (big and small) within those markets. Its strengths lie in the versatility to adapt to those markets, which is what you are seeing now.

As a private company, and certainly as this private company, it is not dependent on nervous banks to call the shots. The few shareholders this company has, have drawn income from a succesful business for 95% of its existence. For the remaining 5% they have had to reverse that flow of monies. Whilst I am not privy to how they strategize the business, given the portfolio of companies that offset short term losses in one, it doesn't appear to be something they want to cut loose anytime soon.

Notwithstanding the above, losses do nothing to contribute to a succesful portfolio. There has been a lot of introspection in all of the component parts of the businesses. To some extent we have been very slow to adopt primary economies that the lo-co's realized years ago. Whilst that isn't a good thing, there is a lot of margin for savings that aren't there to competitors. This will significantly turn around the numbers. When you add that to the in-house plans, the outlook is very good indeed.

Nothing in life or business is guaranteed, and it is a basic economic tenet that profit is payment for risk. However as anybody with their own private company knows all too well, businesses are structured towards the growth of the business and providing the income for the owners. Profit is what tax is paid on, so it is rarely a spectacular number.

For those joining Monarch now, I sincerely believe they have a good future. I do not doubt that ongoing evolution will bring changes, some of which will be unwelcome, but accepting the reality of risk, many of the fundamentals are very good.

As it relates to the basis of this thread, Monarch is a company that has always recruited quality people from a spectrum of backgrounds: Military career changers; Experienced self improver civilian pilots; Cadets from affiliated integrated training schools. As a TRTO we are well placed and have no particular aversion to offering type specific training courses to otherwise well qualified pilots. This diversity of recruitment provides an element of chlorine to the group demographic pool. Within each recruitment profile, the terms and conditions on offer are very fair. Where there is a price point differential (such as with cadets) the apprenticeship period is usually less than 18 months, and then it is a level playing field.

If you read this thread from the start, and you read a few other similar long threads, you will find it is generally the same people wading in with ill informed and often vacuous comments. That can't be helped, and it is the nature of this particular beast.

Monarch is a good company and a good employer. Within the confines of professional confidentiality, discretion, and experience, I have tried to show why it is a good company. It's strengths lie in it's resources which are not as fragile as some people imagine. They also lie in its staff. Not just pilots, but engineers, cabin crew, managers, apprentices and admin' staff.

That is why you see so little criticism or bad mouthing of the business from anybody that actually knows anything about the reality of it.

PilotsOfTheCaribbean - What an excellent post. Informative, well balanced and erudite.

Speaks volumes.