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The American Dream; The Europeans can dream!

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The American Dream; The Europeans can dream!

Old 10th Mar 2023, 14:54
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Superpilot
Alrosa, it's the primary factor. 1500 hours experience represents people with lives, homes, families and real world financial needs. By 1500 hours the shine of a career in aviation has worn off. Most pilots would not be interested in a chance to fly a flash pocket jet if it didn't cover the bills. A 200 hour jockey would likely sell his gran for it.
This absolutely nails it. At 1500 hours pipeline patrol or single pilot IFR in a metroliner, you know full well what the job does to you and what you are worth to yourself and your employer. Life experience is a very valuable thing and what seems like a dream lifestyle at 19/20 (and willing to sell your gran for it) is very different when you are 30 with a family and a mortgage - and the 1500 hour rule means most get to the airlines somewhat later in life, with previous experience with other employers, aviation and otherwise.

There are threads on this board with people so desperate to be on a shiny jet they will pay not only for the rating but to be sat there flying fare paying people around. In a market where that exists, you will never see the sorts of ts and cs you see in the USA.
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 16:37
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Type rating and line training
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 10:00
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It's a really interesting set of circumstances what's going on across the pond at the moment.

Despite the eureka feelings and starry eyes, there's no doubt that the next 12 months from these pay deals is the absolute peak of the airline market in the U.S. You cannot have salaries like this and not get an insane influx of people training (ie. people are seeing these compensation figures and starting training now in the U.S., If you start training now and get into an airline in 3-5 years, you'll have mountains of people alongside going for jobs) I don't think these figures are sustainable.

I do however firmly believe that there is (and has been for years) a massive imbalance between Europe and the U.S. in terms of comp. At the very least I do believe we can make some assumptions:
  • The U.S. comp figures are peaking and in a few years this may cause other issues for the airlines
  • European airlines will have to rethink their compensation once the COVID-induced hole begins to hit (it hasn't yet!). ie. Most people getting into airlines now are integrated folks who started just before/as COVID hit and got delayed, modular students are probably still those who started pre-COVID. (My rationale here is just the length of time modular takes and the 6 or so months COVID put a halt to things for).
So I do think Europe is yet to see the "crisis" of a pilot shortage as in the U.S - (some of you may laugh at that, and understandably so with how under-staffed some airlines are!). Look at Aer Lingus - they had insane amounts of applicants for their recent DEFO scheme - it just shows that airlines with relatively good compensation and lifestyle have their pick of the European job market.

It is largely accepted that we lag the U.S. aviation market in Europe by a few years (financial crisis, COVID recovery, shortages etc.), but the U.S. shortage is much more profound because of the 1500hrs. That said, I firmly believe Europe hit rock bottom in terms of comp over the last decade and that we'll start to see an uptick as the U.S. resets the bar for how airline staff should be paid. We can all agree we won't get near where the Delta/American pay deal got to, but I do think we'll see strong rises over the next few years (provided we don't see a big economic downturn )
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 10:24
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SliabhLuachra
It is largely accepted that we lag the U.S. aviation market in Europe.... and that we'll start to see an uptick as the U.S. resets the bar for how airline staff should be paid. We can all agree we won't get near where the Delta/American pay deal got to, but I do think we'll see strong rises over the next few years
Sincere question: Since, due to visa hurdles, EU pilots can't flee the scene in droves over there to take advantage of the hiring situation in the USA, how does the compensation in the USA put pressure on EU airlines to pay their pilots more ?
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 10:39
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I don't see any pressure on Euro airlines due to the fact that 200hr pilots can and are occupying right hand seats, getting upgraded with just a little over 3000hrs. Most of the LCC-s are even bonding (eg. deducting from salary over the span of 2-3 years) for A320/B737 type ratings. Getting into legacies is mostly restricted for nationals due to requiring to be at least conversant in local language and oftentimes they have their own cadet schemes.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 14:53
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Originally Posted by bafanguy
Sincere question: Since, due to visa hurdles, EU pilots can't flee the scene in droves over there to take advantage of the hiring situation in the USA, how does the compensation in the USA put pressure on EU airlines to pay their pilots more ?
Not directly I would imagine. But the feeling if they can do it, so can we will eventually set in. All of this driving up more demands and union negotiating.
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 21:04
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Originally Posted by rod_1986
I canít understand why the US majors havenít simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulatorís licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime Iíll just look on in awe.
In fairness, itís quite difficult for an American to obtain citizenship and the right to work in EU as well.

With regards to your second question, Iím not aware of a massive effort by ALPA or APA (AA pilotís union) to keep visa holding pilots out of our flight decks. The real fight on capital hill is against EU flag of convenience carriers like Norwegian. 787 Captains making somewhere in the neighborhood of 140K (I think). We certainly donít want that getting any traction on this side of the pond.

Hereís Isom in his own words btw.



Last edited by AAGpilot; 11th Mar 2023 at 21:46.
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 19:15
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Pretty funnyÖ
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 07:28
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Ha ha ha!

Funny, cos it's true!
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 08:43
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver
I was hoping for a sensible answer
Sad to see Pprune is going the way of Twitter/Facebook
So what is there to actually disagree with in that post prey tell??
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 13:42
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Hello AAGpilot,
Did a search for that, would call it, maybe a 'Memo' by Rober Isom, but could not find it anywhere.
Probably it was published may be in a social network, FB, or similar, stuff that I normally don't use.
Would be interested in obtaining a copy of it. Would it be possible to provide a link to that ?
It can be by private message if you prefer.
Thanks

or is it internal stuff of AA, and therefore not available to the outside ?
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 14:09
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Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123
I disagree. Yes there wonít be an increase like they are seeing over in USA but I reckon we will see an up tick.

RYR still losing masses to the likes of ME carriers.
Not here to judge the system but... It is what Ryanair wants. Make a max 10 year blitz career from 200hrs and only keep the training people that can handle the sytem for the future.

While in a regular airline one has to work the ranks to get promotions, Ryanair hands qualifications out like flyer adds to balance the uncertain work conditions (base closures etc...). When the new crisis arrives, "tired-by-the-system qualifications" are replaced with new "motivated & funded" FO's that feed the training system from the bottom.

While in a regular mainline airline you need a magnifying glass to find a captain at the age of 30, in the low cost business you have to question yourself why you aren't a TRI/TRE already by that age (if you wanted to be one...). Once you have all you wanted from Ryanair, you move on.

Different worlds.

Last edited by BraceBrace; 16th Mar 2023 at 08:42.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 17:02
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Exactly this BraceBrace. That's the model and they are proud of it. The RYR, WZZ and EZY pilots who don't look shagged out by age 40 have won the genetics lottery.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 18:24
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zerograv
Hello AAGpilot,
Did a search for that, would call it, maybe a 'Memo' by Rober Isom, but could not find it anywhere.
Probably it was published may be in a social network, FB, or similar, stuff that I normally don't use.
Would be interested in obtaining a copy of it. Would it be possible to provide a link to that ?
It can be by private message if you prefer.
Thanks

or is it internal stuff of AA, and therefore not available to the outside ?
Its a transcript someone wrote up of a video Isom put out internally. I tried to up load the video but this site wonít accept the file.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 18:36
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Originally Posted by BraceBrace
Not here to judge the system but... It is what Ryanair wants. Make a max 10 year blitz career from 200hrs and only keep the training people that can handle the sytem for the future.

While with a regular airline one has to work the ranks to get promotions, Ryanair hands qualifications out like flyer adds to balance the uncertain work conditions (base closures etc...). When the new crisis arrives, "tired-by-the-system qualifications" are replaced with new "motivated & funded" FO's that feed the training system from the bottom.

While in a regular mainline airline you need a magnifying glass to find a captain at the age of 30, in the low cost business you have to question yourself why you aren't a TRI/TRE already by that age (if you wanted to be one...). Once you have all you wanted from Ryanair, you move one.

Different worlds.
Agree in it is what RYR want. Ideally they want an aviation slump to dump some pilots onto the market.
At the moment thatís not happening. What I saw was FOs ready for upgrade saying thanks but no thanks. The drive from FOs I met was there to be LHS. Captain salary at RYR not worth it when can go to ME and earn much more, BA FO at LHR £5k after tax with all the other benefits and option to go LH or Jet2 for pretty good salary for less work.

How many pilots post COVID are now looking for jobs? All the guys and gals I met going through training had qualified just before COVID hit.
RYR need 1200 pilots this year. Thatís a lot.
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Old 15th Mar 2023, 05:49
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Originally Posted by zerograv
Hello AAGpilot,
Did a search for that, would call it, maybe a 'Memo' by Rober Isom, but could not find it anywhere.
Probably it was published may be in a social network, FB, or similar, stuff that I normally don't use.
Would be interested in obtaining a copy of it. Would it be possible to provide a link to that ?
It can be by private message if you prefer.
Thanks

or is it internal stuff of AA, and therefore not available to the outside ?
Hi everyone, Deltaís Pilots recently ratified a new for your deal that it is unprecedented in the history of collective bargaining, profoundly changing the economics of Deltaís pilot career; and thatís not just for Deltaís pilots, that deal with determine compensation benefits, and quality of life for pilot across the rest of the industry. That means something extraordinary for Americanís Pilots. Thatís because our commitment, my commitment, remains unchanged; Our team members, including our pilot will be paid well, and they will be paid competitively.

Let me be clear, American is prepared to match Delta pay rates and provide Americanís pilots with the same profit-sharing formula as Deltaís pilots. American pilotís would receive pay increases of an average 21% in the first year of the new contract; Begin participation in a much richer profit sharing program and receive a bump in the companies annual contribution to your 401(k) in a second year of the deal. The total pay increase for pilots on average is 40% in the fourth year of the deal. Let me give you a few examples of what this would mean by the end of the agreement, factoring in base salary and increase 401(k) contributions from the company; a narrow body, captain at the top of the scale would make $475,000 a year or $135,000 more a year than they do today. A widebody Captain of the top of the scale order in $590,000 a year thatís $170,000 more a year than they earn today; and participation in the new profit-sharing program will increase the payout pool from 5% of pretax earnings too 10%, and up to 20% earnings about $2.5 billion.
And itís not just about Delta pay, itís about making sure this works for Americanís Pilot. You would see significant improvements to scheduling related and quality of life items. That means improved trip construction, and more certainty when it comes to replacement flying and recovery obligation.

A deal like this would be a game changer for our pilots. It would be worth more than $7 billion in incremental compensation, benefits, and quality life improvements over the term of the four year agreement. This would allow you to join Deltaís pilots is the industries leaderís in pay, but with more quality of life improvements unique to American Airlines. Itís what you deserve and it can be negotiated and made available quickly. Like you Iím extraordinarily excited about the coming new contract and all that it means for you and American.

As we proceed down the negotiation homestretch, I plan to reach out frequently, share updates and make sure you have the companyís perspective and our unequivocal commitment to completing a new contract expeditiously. I want to assure you that thereís no question of our intent; That is we want you to be paid as well as your peers. We want you to have the quality life and benefits the matter most to you and we donít want you to have to wait, Now lets get this deal done.

Thanks for listening and thanks for all you do every day.

~Robert Isom
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Old 15th Mar 2023, 11:45
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There is no way how to compare both markets. It's like to try to compare apple and oranges. The wages in America are like that simply becouse of the oldest law of capitalism... Offer and demand...
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Old 15th Mar 2023, 21:51
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Not even 11 years ago...

When things go well, salaries in US are amazing and not even comparable to europe, but when things go south, well, they have no bottom.
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Old 16th Mar 2023, 00:14
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Originally Posted by dirk85
Not even 11 years ago... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRq0O4lnsKE&t=4s

When things go well, salaries in US are amazing and not even comparable to europe, but when things go south, well, they have no bottom.
I donít know if youíre familiar with the US regional airline sector, but the airlines featured in your video above are in fact not AA, DAL, or UAL. Regional airlines fly subcontracted lift for their Major airline partners, and although the livery on the plane might say XYZ, itís actually a company you never even heard of. Republic, Skywest, Go Jet, Envoy, Air Wisconsin, and the list goes on. These airline have their own operating certificates, employees, planes, training, etc. They also often have contracts to provide lift for multiple Majors at once.

Historically theyíve been able to pay their first year FOs the ridiculously low numbers that are shown in that video. The reason people accepted those jobs was to build turbine time and turbine PIC with the hope of getting to a Major. Today even those regionals now pay their Captains hundreds of thousands of dollars, and bonuses that would make oneís head spin. I believe all FOs now start at around 100k too. Envoy, PSA, and Piedmont (operating for AA as American Eagle) pay their Check Pilots $427/hour now! I know, insane. The pilot shortage is real over here folks.
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Old 16th Mar 2023, 00:35
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Originally Posted by AAGpilot
I donít know if youíre familiar with the US regional airline sector, but the airlines featured in your video above are in fact not AA, DAL, or UAL. Regional airlines fly subcontracted lift for their Major airline partners, and although the livery on the plane might say XYZ, itís actually a company you never even heard of. Republic, Skywest, Go Jet, Envoy, Air Wisconsin, and the list goes on. These airline have their own operating certificates, employees, planes, training, etc. They also often have contracts to provide lift for multiple Majors at once.

Historically theyíve been able to pay their first year FOs the ridiculously low numbers that are shown in that video. The reason people accepted those jobs was to build turbine time and turbine PIC with the hope of getting to a Major. Today even those regionals now pay their Captains hundreds of thousands of dollars, and bonuses that would make oneís head spin. I believe all FOs now start at around 100k too. Envoy, PSA, and Piedmont (operating for AA as American Eagle) pay their Check Pilots $427/hour now! I know, insane. The pilot shortage is real over here folks.

I am familiar with the regionals in the US, and well aware they are separate entities from the majors. And I am sure they pay hundreds of thousands now. But it has not always been the case. Supply and demand, as usual. In both directions. Let's enjoy now, at least those who can, because who knows what the future holds
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