The American Dream; The Europeans can dream!
Is the airline in question unionized ? Even if it is, a union has limited power to change the course of events regarding whom the airline hires. At that point in time, a union can express its displeasure with what management is doing but cannot stop it. There are limits on union power and control.
Name the airline and offer documentation.
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That’s partially true however @randon is 100% correct. Unions are only as strong as their local labour laws. In Europe we have too many countries and jurisdictions to ever have a strong collective union across the continent. For instance The Netherlands ,that have incredible labour laws ,has a highly effective union for its KLM pilots compared to the U.K. where labour laws are much weaker. Same counts for France/Germany compared with for instance Poland.
Hell has to freeze over twice before any management in Europe ever considers improvements like in th U.S. It’s completely contrary to the European management philosophy. In Europe management philosphy is cheap tickets and driving down personnel costs and conditions as much as possible to the point where technically cadets pay to fly for certain low cost carriers.
For the next 20 years we’re also going to keep this major surplus of pilots. We’re the continent with the most amount of pilots per available registered a/c, I think Oz is a close second. Hell ,we can solve North Americas pilot shortage and still have enough jockeys for our own. And let’s not even get in to 1500hours cause in Europe 500TT gets you in a seat quicker than a 10000 hour driver, and that’s facts(talk to Ryanair recruiters and you’ll see).
We’re speaking of two different aviation sectors. The U.S. , besides their huge leisure travel, also has a massive business commuting sector across the states while we mostly do leisure traveling across EU cities. In the U.S. there’s also far less regulations on the aviation sector while in Europe we have the sector overregulated and Brussels thrives on piling more environmental and fiscal pressure on aviation. So we’re talking two sectors going in opposite directions.
So yes, US and Europe is more like apples and plastic cups, two totally different worlds. One where aviation is a pride of a nation and is cherished and protected while in the other it’s a mere business that should be cheaper, regulated and reduced which automatically leads to lesser conditions.
p.s. I obviously also know what the U.S. industry has been through in these last 25 years but at least there’s much more improvements now, something that we won’t see on this side of the pond.
Not being pessimistic just realistic.
Hell has to freeze over twice before any management in Europe ever considers improvements like in th U.S. It’s completely contrary to the European management philosophy. In Europe management philosphy is cheap tickets and driving down personnel costs and conditions as much as possible to the point where technically cadets pay to fly for certain low cost carriers.
For the next 20 years we’re also going to keep this major surplus of pilots. We’re the continent with the most amount of pilots per available registered a/c, I think Oz is a close second. Hell ,we can solve North Americas pilot shortage and still have enough jockeys for our own. And let’s not even get in to 1500hours cause in Europe 500TT gets you in a seat quicker than a 10000 hour driver, and that’s facts(talk to Ryanair recruiters and you’ll see).
We’re speaking of two different aviation sectors. The U.S. , besides their huge leisure travel, also has a massive business commuting sector across the states while we mostly do leisure traveling across EU cities. In the U.S. there’s also far less regulations on the aviation sector while in Europe we have the sector overregulated and Brussels thrives on piling more environmental and fiscal pressure on aviation. So we’re talking two sectors going in opposite directions.
So yes, US and Europe is more like apples and plastic cups, two totally different worlds. One where aviation is a pride of a nation and is cherished and protected while in the other it’s a mere business that should be cheaper, regulated and reduced which automatically leads to lesser conditions.
p.s. I obviously also know what the U.S. industry has been through in these last 25 years but at least there’s much more improvements now, something that we won’t see on this side of the pond.
Not being pessimistic just realistic.
Last edited by Posterviolet; 24th May 2023 at 20:41.
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The operation is for Skycana, an airline from Dominican Republic. A321 cargo. The plane and the crews are based in Miami, meaning the crews are starting and finishing their duties in Miami. The crew have an ersatz of a contract with Smartlynx which is not even legal in Europe. The crews are from EU or some other places in Europe. They are staying on a crew visa which is normally valid to stay in the US on a layover. I understand it's not a union job but more of an immigration problem, but maybe someone could clarify the situation (union calling the immigration for example).
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Last edited by cessnaxpilot; 25th May 2023 at 17:03.
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I have never understood the weak dick mentality of pilot unions in Europe. Lord knows, every other workforce is ready to burn the place down (cough, cough, France).
You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both. Being locked into a list means you will do what it takes to improve your wage and benefits. And since we are now 40 years into the post deregulation environment there are many opportunities for pilots to choose a job so that forces carriers to offer attractive packages to entice new hires. Los Estados Unitas is a big country with crappy public funded transport, particularly inter city. So aviation is a staple. Passengers, cargo, everyone wants to be there or get their package deliveries right now. So aviation flourishes.
Another thing to consider is that aviation terms and conditions are only now starting to recover to the pre 9/11 terms. Airline management took advantage of the terror attacks on 9/11 to destroy pilot contracts. They were able to do this until the basic economic principle of supply and demand caught up with the lack of pilot starts driven by those ridiculous starting salaries for regional pilots. Now they are playing catch up. And they are paying to play. FUPM.
The reality is that the passenger has been taking advantage of low fares that can easily absorb an elasticity in price. $99 fares across the country are not good for anyone except the great unwashed who are shit to have as passengers anyway. Post Covid flying a bunch of domestic flights I had more unruly passengers requiring police meeting the flight than in my previous 38 years of airline flying. Thankfully international opened back up and the issues were left to the guys flying domestic. Business travelers will pay the fares, and it’s just a small part of the operating cost of a flight even if both cockpit crew are making $555/hr. I pissed that much away if I held 10 minutes going into LHR.
You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both. Being locked into a list means you will do what it takes to improve your wage and benefits. And since we are now 40 years into the post deregulation environment there are many opportunities for pilots to choose a job so that forces carriers to offer attractive packages to entice new hires. Los Estados Unitas is a big country with crappy public funded transport, particularly inter city. So aviation is a staple. Passengers, cargo, everyone wants to be there or get their package deliveries right now. So aviation flourishes.
Another thing to consider is that aviation terms and conditions are only now starting to recover to the pre 9/11 terms. Airline management took advantage of the terror attacks on 9/11 to destroy pilot contracts. They were able to do this until the basic economic principle of supply and demand caught up with the lack of pilot starts driven by those ridiculous starting salaries for regional pilots. Now they are playing catch up. And they are paying to play. FUPM.
The reality is that the passenger has been taking advantage of low fares that can easily absorb an elasticity in price. $99 fares across the country are not good for anyone except the great unwashed who are shit to have as passengers anyway. Post Covid flying a bunch of domestic flights I had more unruly passengers requiring police meeting the flight than in my previous 38 years of airline flying. Thankfully international opened back up and the issues were left to the guys flying domestic. Business travelers will pay the fares, and it’s just a small part of the operating cost of a flight even if both cockpit crew are making $555/hr. I pissed that much away if I held 10 minutes going into LHR.
