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The American Dream; The Europeans can dream!

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The American Dream; The Europeans can dream!

Old 8th Mar 2023, 18:33
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The American Dream; The Europeans can dream!

American Airlines pilots getting 40% payrise taking top scale widebody captains to $590,000/year with significant lifestyle improvements to boot, to match the recent Delta deal. Aviation in Europe (UK specifically) never looked so unappealing.
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Old 8th Mar 2023, 19:33
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I canít understand why the US majors havenít simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulatorís licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime Iíll just look on in awe.
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Old 8th Mar 2023, 20:59
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Originally Posted by rod_1986
I canít understand why the US majors havenít simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulatorís licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime Iíll just look on in awe.
As an ex-european: No Thanks, you can keep your grubby pilots, I have pulled up the bridge!! Also, every Aussie pilot can come over on an E-3, getting an ATP takes a week if you have the required experience.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 03:45
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Originally Posted by Busdriver01
American Airlines pilots getting 40% payrise taking top scale widebody captains to $590,000/year with significant lifestyle improvements to boot, to match the recent Delta deal. Aviation in Europe (UK specifically) never looked so unappealing.
What makes the UK uniquely unappealing in Europe
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 04:33
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TheYanks have more than enough people to cover their shortage, it’s the training that takes time. Remember this shortage is temporary, so there’s no need to give any visa specifically for pilots.

As for EU, well we will never see such an increase. Maybe the AF/KLM or Lufti might up their pay a bit but as far as everyone else you can forget it. We have a massive surplus of pilots and the EU is not 1 country, it might be a single market but with so many countries with different labour laws and economies it practically makes it impossible. Plus there’s the low cost issue, our aviation sector is dominated by Ryanair/Wizzair and Easyjet so they lead the way in terms of pilot pay and the rest are just gonna follow.

So if you want anything close to what the Yanks are getting make sure you get in to AF/KLM, Lufti or maybe BA. For everything else expect some serious deterioration of remuneration packages in the next coming years.

It is what it is.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 06:47
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Originally Posted by gipilot
TheYanks have more than enough people to cover their shortage, itís the training that takes time. Remember this shortage is temporary, so thereís no need to give any visa specifically for pilots.

As for EU, well we will never see such an increase. Maybe the AF/KLM or Lufti might up their pay a bit but as far as everyone else you can forget it. We have a massive surplus of pilots and the EU is not 1 country, it might be a single market but with so many countries with different labour laws and economies it practically makes it impossible. Plus thereís the low cost issue, our aviation sector is dominated by Ryanair/Wizzair and Easyjet so they lead the way in terms of pilot pay and the rest are just gonna follow.

So if you want anything close to what the Yanks are getting make sure you get in to AF/KLM, Lufti or maybe BA. For everything else expect some serious deterioration of remuneration packages in the next coming years.

It is what it is.
BA good joke
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 08:50
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Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver
What makes the UK uniquely unappealing in Europe
Setting aside the xenophobic and foul insanity of Brexit (which chains most unfortunate remain voting Brits to the sinking ship)!.... try; an extremely hostile fiscal environment for business and employees alike (captains typically 62% marginal tax), and horrendous state services in return (get sick - you die), covid kids barely educated! The country is on a scary death spiral; business and skilled workers are leaving at an astonishing rate. You want more? - it's a long list, but I won't bore you! But just so long as the economically inactive are protected (hooray; full inflation pay rises for all!! (brexit voting pensioners, and benefit claimants alike)!
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 08:55
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Originally Posted by gipilot
TheYanks have more than enough people to cover their shortage, itís the training that takes time. Remember this shortage is temporary, so thereís no need to give any visa specifically for pilots.

As for EU, well we will never see such an increase. Maybe the AF/KLM or Lufti might up their pay a bit but as far as everyone else you can forget it. We have a massive surplus of pilots and the EU is not 1 country, it might be a single market but with so many countries with different labour laws and economies it practically makes it impossible. Plus thereís the low cost issue, our aviation sector is dominated by Ryanair/Wizzair and Easyjet so they lead the way in terms of pilot pay and the rest are just gonna follow.

So if you want anything close to what the Yanks are getting make sure you get in to AF/KLM, Lufti or maybe BA. For everything else expect some serious deterioration of remuneration packages in the next coming years.

It is what it is.
I disagree. Yes there wonít be an increase like they are seeing over in USA but I reckon we will see an up tick.

RYR still losing masses to the likes of ME carriers.
Brexit may actually help UK licensed pilots.
Anyone starting training now or has just finished have gone or will go EASA route. That gives RYR and Wizz as options to start.
RYR are struggling to fill RUK side of operations.
If youíre jet rated in UK last few months has seen some pretty good options. I know a few people recently who have said to me. ďI donít know where to go?Ē Been offered Virgin, BA, J2, DHL, Qatar.
UK wise for an FO just looking at ££k J2 is looking mighty. £75k now I think? Summer yes they work hard. Winter though my mate seems to do couple of days work every 2 weeks.
EU land I donít have my ear to the ground. I do know guys/gals who have got 500hrs at RYR and off to AF/KLM etc.

One thing about the US is yes salaries are looking very good right now.
The cynic in me says yes BUTÖ.. 2 wordsÖ.
Chapter Eleven.
All bets are off at that stage.

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Old 9th Mar 2023, 09:50
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The US has a currency that they can print out of thin air and the rest of the world wants it no matter what. Countries need USD to buy commodities and Americans are reaping the benefits. Cost of living in the US I would say is a lot higher but if you are making 300k as an FO I donít think itís an issue. The US is one big single market where as European is a fragmented market.

I donít think Europe will ever catch up but there are now no American pilots working abroad really so it may slowly lead to salaries increasing in the ME and that has an effect in Europe.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 10:01
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The lobbying power of ALPA is vital in the absense of good social responsibility which simply no longer exists in the world of 21st century capitalism. The 1500 hour bar is ofcourse rediculous but equally rediculous is offering a starting salary of €40k for a new pilot.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 10:14
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Well i've searched through the family history and alas, no sign of any link to the states, so I guess im stuck in brexitland forever more...!
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 14:12
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Originally Posted by gipilot
TheYanks have more than enough people to cover their shortage, it’s the training that takes time. Remember this shortage is temporary, so there’s no need to give any visa specifically for pilots.

As for EU, well we will never see such an increase. Maybe the AF/KLM or Lufti might up their pay a bit but as far as everyone else you can forget it. We have a massive surplus of pilots and the EU is not 1 country, it might be a single market but with so many countries with different labour laws and economies it practically makes it impossible. Plus there’s the low cost issue, our aviation sector is dominated by Ryanair/Wizzair and Easyjet so they lead the way in terms of pilot pay and the rest are just gonna follow.

So if you want anything close to what the Yanks are getting make sure you get in to AF/KLM, Lufti or maybe BA. For everything else expect some serious deterioration of remuneration packages in the next coming years.

It is what it is.
The pilots at the US version of ryan/wizz/easy (SouthWest/Spirit/Frontier/JetBlue) make 90% of the US version of AF/KL/DL (UA/DL/AA), with the same retirement plan and very similar work rules. SWA is the largest domestic carrier in the US. Personally saw the paycheck of a SFO at 12 year pay (Yes, upgrade is that long, because seniority, and nobody leaves). Over $300K. You know how? Because 100% of the pilots in the US that have a decent pay check are Union. It is somewhat interesting how little that is talked about.

Last edited by hans brinker; 10th Mar 2023 at 00:44.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 15:45
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Originally Posted by midnight cruiser
Setting aside the xenophobic and foul insanity of Brexit (which chains most unfortunate remain voting Brits to the sinking ship)!.... try; an extremely hostile fiscal environment for business and employees alike (captains typically 62% marginal tax), and horrendous state services in return (get sick - you die), covid kids barely educated! The country is on a scary death spiral; business and skilled workers are leaving at an astonishing rate. You want more? - it's a long list, but I won't bore you! But just so long as the economically inactive are protected (hooray; full inflation pay rises for all!! (brexit voting pensioners, and benefit claimants alike)!
You need to stop watching Fox News.
Other news networks are available.
"Get sick =you die" Idiotic statement.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 17:18
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Originally Posted by midnight cruiser
Setting aside the xenophobic and foul insanity of Brexit (which chains most unfortunate remain voting Brits to the sinking ship)!.... try; an extremely hostile fiscal environment for business and employees alike (captains typically 62% marginal tax), and horrendous state services in return (get sick - you die), covid kids barely educated! The country is on a scary death spiral; business and skilled workers are leaving at an astonishing rate. You want more? - it's a long list, but I won't bore you! But just so long as the economically inactive are protected (hooray; full inflation pay rises for all!! (brexit voting pensioners, and benefit claimants alike)!
I was hoping for a sensible answer
Sad to see Pprune is going the way of Twitter/Facebook

Last edited by SpamCanDriver; 9th Mar 2023 at 19:10.
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Old 9th Mar 2023, 20:26
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Not sure why BA has dropped behind in pay so much but the union doesnít seem as well represented as Nouf US colleagues
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 06:31
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But take away the hyperbole and they're not far wrong though are they?

We (as pilots) do pay a lot of tax. Our public services are crumbling (NHS waiting times? Police crime stats? The railways? I could go on...)

The government seems pre occupied with protecting pensioners and the ever increasing number of benefit claimants from the harsh tyranny of a cost of living crisis, while draining the "squeezed middle" to fund it.

Would you really recommend the UK as a place to stay and build a career and family if you were talking to a bright 20- something year old graduate? I dont think i would.
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 09:08
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The salaries on offer at the US companies now rival those of the lucrative Chinese contracts of yesteryear. Funny old world.
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 10:22
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I don’t have any intimate knowledge of how things work in the US, but I suspect that part of the reason for the higher salaries on average is the 1500hr rule - which Europe doesn’t have. It’s not the only factor, but it must have some effect.
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 10:45
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It certainly reduced supply of newly qualified FOs when it was first implemented, but I cant see how that would have such a massive effect on the entire recruitment/promotion flow. There must be a steady stream of pilots who have done 1500hrs elsewhere applying to the airlines? Especially now it's an established rule?
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Old 10th Mar 2023, 10:45
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Alrosa, it's the primary factor. 1500 hours experience represents people with lives, homes, families and real world financial needs. By 1500 hours the shine of a career in aviation has worn off. Most pilots would not be interested in a chance to fly a flash pocket jet if it didn't cover the bills. A 200 hour jockey would likely sell his gran for it.
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